Re-Parenting, Legacy & Emotional Inheritance in Parental Alienation Part 2 - Episode 127

This conversation explores the transformative power of travel and cultural experiences in shaping family dynamics and personal growth. The speakers discuss the impact of parental alienation, the evolution of fatherhood, and the importance of being present in children's lives. They share insights on cultural connections, ancestry, and the significance of community in nurturing relationships. The discussion also delves into the themes of failure, recovery, and the journey of writing a book that encapsulates their experiences.

Key Takeaways

• Travel can provide children with a broader perspective on life.
• Cultural experiences can strengthen family bonds and connections.
• Fatherhood is evolving from transactional to transformational.
• Being present with children is more important than perfection.
• Understanding ancestry can deepen children's sense of identity.
• Community plays a crucial role in family dynamics.
• Personal growth often comes from embracing failure and learning from it.
• Intentional parenting can help break cycles of alienation.
• The power of pausing allows for reflection and growth.
• Sharing stories can inspire others and foster connection.

Chapters

00:00 - Navigating Parental Alienation Through Global Experiences
 03:32 - Transforming Perspectives on Fatherhood
 11:49 - Cultural Connections and Ancestry
 15:52 - The Power of Presence and Intentionality
 20:51 - Embracing Failure and Recovery
 25:20 - Reflections on Change and Community Support
 27:11 - Navigating Parental Alienation Through Global Experiences
 30:44 - Transforming Perspectives on Fatherhood
 39:19 - Cultural Connections and Ancestry
 46:01 - The Power of Pausing and Personal Growth
 49:02 - Understanding Failure Immunity
 52:32 - Hope and Intentional Parenting

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:
 
 Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
 (All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)
 
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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email-         familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Opening, Mission, And Community Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Do you wonder what other tools you could have given your kids so they could navigate the world in a different way through a different lens and maybe even the trajectory of parental alienation could get interrupted? You know, that's a question that I have. I'm not sure if you have that question today, but we're going to continue our conversation around this wonderful trip that this family takes around the world and the intentionality of the family actually thinking like this is going to impact how the kids interact with every human being in their life, including their parents, including their grandparents, including elders. And it gives the kids a point of reference of what the world looks like that is not so narrow as some of us in the Western culture experience. So I hope you listen to the first part of the show because it's super important. And also we have 120 some odd podcasts taped. If you're looking for specific topics and check it out. If this isn't the topic you like, go check out the library, lawyers, therapists, mental health professionals, a bunch of panels of parents and grandparents talking about what to do, what not to do, some really, really wonderful content. If you're new to the community, welcome. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. Donate to help the next person. Like, how did you get here? You got here because someone donated before you and we're able to put a podcast together. We're able to spend stuff on social media, like this is about passing it forward to the next person, and this is an intervention in the system of parental alienation, just by letting people know that there's resources for them. And that's a lot out of me. Check out the show notes, like, share, email me at family disappeared at gmail.com, suggestions, topics, anything that you would like to say. And with that, let's jump

Why Travel Can Disrupt Alienation

SPEAKER_01 1:36

into the show. There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually, and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.

Host’s Israel Story And Parenting Lens

SPEAKER_01 2:09

I took my kids on one international trip, and uh, we actually went to Israel. I have a lot of family in Israel, and this was maybe 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and they had never been out of the country, so the long flight was daunting, and when we got there, they were super disorientated. And it was a wonderful introduction to them to a different kind of culture, and also seeing how the multi-generational living happens in smaller communities like in Israel, and how close everyone is, and how the kids are directly connected with the grandparents and directly connected with each other, and there's all these relationships that naturally form. And it's also a multicultural environment where there's the ability for all the stuff to shift a little bit. And I think it really made an impact on my kids, and it was great for them to see a different way to live. And they also had a level of freedom and autonomy when we're over there because it was so safe at that time. Like the kids at night would go from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem to hang out and then take the bus back and then show back up at three or four in the morning, and it was incredibly, incredibly safe. And it was such a wonderful gift that I gave my children, and I wish I would have known to spend more time sharing the world with them and different points of views with them and different cultures and different acts of service. I think it really would have shifted their perspective before parental alienation kind of like took like this hold, you know, because they're just trying to stay safe and not die. Same thing that I'm trying to do every day. And when I was young, I was using whatever strategies and tools that I had. So this really humanizes what they're going through through a different lens. And we we need to hear positive stories of what people are doing in families that may be a little bit different that can help us heal to some degree and help us help the next person in. Okay, let's see what goes on in the show today.

Rethinking Fatherhood: Presence Over Perfection

SPEAKER_01 3:57

How has your concept of fatherhood shifted, evolved, changed? Like what insights have you had in that aspect?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Ooh, that's a great question. You know, I think I've traditionally like most men have seen fatherhood as the you know, as someone who provides for their family, as someone who is there, maybe, you know, from a safety, security, financial perspective, more transactional, I would think, as opposed to transformational. And so I think the experience, you know, my thinking earlier on, I think, has been influenced by my own, my own relationship with my dad and from what I've seen of others in my own community, you know, being seen as someone who provides and protects, keeping everyone safe, steady, and smiling. And now I'm I think now I'm more about presence than uh perfection. Trying to remember to put my cell phone down, sitting on the floor, being playing Legos with the kids, being a part of their world, right? I find that when I'm a part of their world, things are much simpler. You often overthink things and formalize things, right? For kids, and I just find that, man, they are they are such, I don't want to say simple creatures, but you when you meet them at their level, it's incredible to see the outcome of your relationship with them. When I see my youngest come home from school and starts playing with her Legos, and I just kind of sit down and I start playing with the Legos. I don't make this a formal thing. I don't go and say, okay, daddy's gonna spend some time playing Legos with you. No, let me just be as subtle and natural as possible and just being with them and interacting with them and being silly with them, right? My oldest loves baseball. You know, the Toronto Blue Jays are now in the World Series against the LA Dodgers. And so for her to sit down and for us to just sit and chat and watch the game, she doesn't want to talk, she's all in two to the game. She may ask me a few questions, but I just want to be with them. So it's less about shaping them into who I want them to be and more about being curious enough to discover in many ways who they already are.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I love that explanation, and also it ties back into the whole legacy idea of this idea of transactional versus actually being present and attuned and letting them must probably assimilate to your experiences and your nervous system as they get to spend time with you and them get to make their own decisions, is what I'm hearing you say.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

And I'm curious about the generational parts of the trip. Like, were your kids close with other relatives in other generations in other countries, or like how does that work and what shifted in their direct relationship with the next generation or different segment of your family that you might have visited that they didn't necessarily have those neurons or whatever before firing in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, that's great. That's a great question as well.

Ghana Roots, Ancestry, And Elders’ Reverence

SPEAKER_00 6:43

You know, the time that we spent, one of the highlights of many of the countries that we visited was the trip to Ghana. Both my parents are from there, grew up there, left in their late teens, early twenties for parts unknown throughout the world for further educational studies, and returning there to the childhood home of my mom and to my dad, and to go and see the tombstones of their great-grandparents. Or, you know, it's very we're it much of Africa, particularly in Ghana, you know, there's a reverence to your ancestry. So many, many people who are from Afghana, Ghanaian descent are typically named after either an ancestor that's still alive, or in many cases one who's passed away for many years. And so it was very interesting for them to go back and see their ancestors, great-grandparents of who they have been formally, you know, or informally named after in terms of their traditional African name or Ghana name. So, you know, we talk about these people notionally, but to be able to go back and see them, all right, or for my youngest daughter, be able to go and see her namesake and to be, you know, having a bit of a traditional ceremony to be able to meet your great aunts, right? To be able to see that. And the biggest adjustment, I think, for them in terms of going back to Ghana was the fact that we don't distinguish, particularly in a lot of African culture, and in particular in Ghana, we don't distinguish between first cousins, second cousins, aunts and uncles. If someone is older than you, you know, we're not in the same sort of generational band as you are, then it's an uncle or it's an aunt, right? Or cousins. And so I know in many cases, my youngest or oldest would be like, is this like a real cousin or a fake cousin, right? And then for them it was very important for the distinction. I mean, girls, they're all family, right? And you know, you want to treat them the same regardless of whether they're a real cousin or fake cousin. So I think for them, I think that was something that was very different for them because the Ghana community here in Canada or in Toronto, where I've grown up, everyone was a cousin, uncle, aunt, and so they've kind of gotten used to that, right? And to the point of where even in our neighborhood, those who are elderly, there's a bit of a reverence towards them. And so it's uncle this or grandpa that or papa this or grandma that. And you know, so it's for them, and often their friends are often kind of like, How is this Greek lady your yeah, yeah? I don't understand what's going on here, or how is this Italian, you know, uh grandma your nona? I don't understand, but that's the neighborhood that we live in. There's Greeks, Italians, all these people, and because they've seen them from such a young age that, yeah, so like, oh, they're hi Papu Nick, or hi, yeah, yeah, Christina, you know, but that's all that is part of how they are, and I love that. And I love seeing the kind of quizzical looks on their faces, friends' faces, where they're like, how do you know them? And why are they why you why what's the relationship? You know, you don't look anything like them, you just happen to live down the street and all that. So to see that experience, to see that experience in Ghana, for them to understand their history for us to look at the museums in Ghana, and I love that. You know, I don't think we'll ever knock on wood. I hope it happens again, but I don't know if we'll ever have a reunion like that where I have both my parents still around, very grateful for that. My siblings were able to make it work, you know, we were able to include the trip there. It was perfect. And I think the icing on or the cherry on top was you know being able to celebrate Father's Day in Ghana with my dad when he's only a few hours' drive away from me, but life happens and you get busy. But to be able to celebrate Father's Day with my dad in person in Ghana, it was all very touching to be able to spend time with him and for my kids to be able to be there and for us to all be out and swimming in the you know the pool or in the ocean. It was a great time. So they've picked up a lot of these things either intentionally or unintentionally, but I'm grateful for the fact that they've remained open to learning about their ancestry from my side or from my spouse's side as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

I love the idea that you know in Ghana that everyone's family and you the reverence that we have for the elders and stuff like that, like in South Africa, I had a similar upbringing. And I don't necessarily experience that in North America. My kids haven't had the joy or privilege or life experience of really understanding that. And here everything feels

Big Families, Community, And Belonging

SPEAKER_01 10:41

very removed and very segmented, so that you've actually found a community in Canada where your kids get to have that same experience. Wow, that is super, super cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah, it's something I probably have taken for granted, but it's the way I was raised, and it's hopefully the same way that I've been able to raise them. And and it's I love being able the fact that my wife's family, who is from out west from Saskatchewan, so a province in in sort of the middle of Canada, um, in prairie in the prairies. Like she also has another, they also have another large family there too, right? And so it gets a bit overwhelming. My my mom is the youngest of 12 kids, and so you know, it's a big family with the cousins and everybody else, and when we all get together, it's just uh a gong show, right? And you know, it's funny. My youngest was like, Daddy, you know, grandma yells at you the same way her brothers and sisters yell at their kids. I'm like, Yeah, it's in the genes, right? They all the way it is, right? And so, or she berates them about the same thing, or you know, you're doing this too loudly, you're being it's all like that. So it's I love the fact that I can describe these things for them, but they were able to see and feel and experience these things firsthand.

After The Trip: Presence, Spirituality, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And with your trip, like what have you noticed in your own interpersonal relationships coming back to Canada? What has shifted, what seems more expansive, what seems like I don't have the patience for this kind of trivial connection anymore. Like, what has anything shifted in that for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

You know, I've gone through this 180-degree turn in my own personal life, Lawrence. It's like I've always been, or I like to think of myself as always being, or I've always been introspective in many ways, but it was much more introspection around what the future was going to hold. What was the next thing? What was the next job? What was the next task? What was the next, you know, running on the ladder, etc. etc. Now I'm much more introspective about what's around me, about being present, about acknowledging what's going on. And trust me, I've not cracked that nut, and it's an evolving journey, but I'm a lot more grateful and appreciative. And I sorry, I don't consider myself to be religious, but I've gone to be more spiritual in many ways. Spiritual in the fact that there's so many things that happened in my life where I'm like, how? Like, why that? Like positive things, and even the things that have been negative, I'm kind of like, what's the lesson I can learn, or why did that happen, or why was I put in that situation? So I'm much more present and patient, much more spiritual, much more grounded. And again, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I've tried to stop letting other people's opinions of me form my own reality. And you know, I try not to let other people steal my joy. I'm much more intentional about when I get up in the morning, even if someone cuts me off, says a rude thing, like why do I want to, why do I want to give away my power to this other unknown person or known person? Like if I wake up with the intention of being happy and content and having another day to be able to function and to fulfill my purpose and to do whatever brings me joy, I'm much more intentional about that as opposed to like, okay, you know, what's on doc for today? What does my calendar say? Who do I have to engage with? I don't want to let others steal my joy or to delegate or to lose responsibility and intention of me being happy and content. So I'm much more intentional and I'm much more focused on doing things that bring me joy, as opposed to just saying yes because it's the right thing to do, or I don't want to upset that person. And so that's an evolving journey for me to go on. But yeah, I'd spend my time on things that make me happy. So, for example, I was on the board of an organization that handed up scholarships to high school students. Great opportunity. I've enjoyed it. But I was like, you know, this is something I did because I needed to include a community component to my career, et cetera, et cetera. And I enjoyed it, but I was like, I can do more than this. And so now, every other Friday for a couple of hours, I go down to my youngest daughter's school and I read to kids or I read with kids who are having challenges. And I was like, this makes me so happy. I love the personalities of the kids. I love how they are on such a wide continuum in terms of their reading ability. I love seeing the progress they're making in terms of how they read. Like these are the things that I would have easily shunned

The Power Of Pausing And Shared Humanity

SPEAKER_00 15:00

because it didn't fit whatever expectations I put on myself, society put on me in terms of where I should be, what I should be doing and where I should be, you know, in terms of giving back to the community. I'm much more like, okay, does this fill my cup? Does this make me happy? You know, and of course, not everything is going to fill your cup and make you happy, but at least let me put it through that lens before I say yes or no. Because if I'm gonna say yes, I'm all in. It's a hell yes, right? If it's a no, then it's forget it. I don't want to be involved. If it's half, half, then, you know, if if I'm not in, all in, then I'm not all in. So I've changed a lot in my own kind of thoughtfulness and approach to things in life from that perspective.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

I love that. And and I'm curious here, like on this trip, your daughter, your oldest daughter's taking six weeks to kind of like arrive and stuff, stuff's getting stripped away. I'm presuming as a parent, the same thing's happening to you. All these attachments, all these ideas are getting stripped away. You're finding yourself in this journey you're providing for your kids was probably one of the biggest gifts you've ever given yourself at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, that you know, this idea of the power of pausing. You can have it's again like everything's a continuum. You're on one end, it could be a full-blown sabbatical, and another end it could be these micro pauses through the day. And I just feel like we leave a lot of things on the table, growth opportunities on the table, because of the fact that we are so busy that we fail to notice what's going on around us. And that was me. Like, you know, I very busy, very fulfilling, very rewarding career, and still continue to have one to this day, but it's now a bit more on my terms. I think I just realized that in many cases, there many of the people we've come across around the world, we're more the same than we are different. Yes, there are differences, of course, but there is more of a consistent sort of continuum between everyone around the world in terms of wanting wanting to make some sort of contribution to society, you know, in some way, wanting to protect your family, look after your family, wanting to ensure that you're a contributing member of society. There's all these elements that are there, you know, wanting to find joy and happiness in what we do, wanting to be able to have a certain level of, you know, standing level, so rather a certain level, or living standard rather, in terms of that as well. So the the trip has fundamentally changed my perspective.

Career Pivot, Intuition, And Writing The Book

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I came back from the experience expecting, taking a leave of absence from my job, expecting to return back to that, uh, but finding out that the role was no longer available. And I mean, uh, after being away for a year, I can't be surprised by that. And so my knee-jerk reaction was to start looking for work. I went into an interview, very lucrative position, high-profile job. I'm like, I would love this. But when I went into the interview, the person who I was interviewing with, who I'd eventually report to, I wasn't feeling it. This my spidey senses, there's something off about this individual. And of course, I can hear the words coming out of my mouth, but then there's this voice in the back of my hand saying, This is not for you, right? And like, and usually for me, I'm logical. The intuition, the guts, the spiritual thing, that's all woo-woo to me. I'm not now. What logically am I thinking? And so the trip, I think, changed that for me because now I'm like, uh, yes, there's the financial and economic components of wanting to be able to return back to work. But when we came back and we crunched the numbers, I'm like, oh, maybe there's some flexibility that's there that I can now pursue things that are a bit more aligned and attuned to what I feel happy and content around. This idea of writing my book around the world in family days was something that I had never anticipated in wanting to do. No interest in writing a book. Not on my bucket list, not on my second list, third list, no way. But then, you know, you get quiet, you know, the universe seems to get involved by bringing all kinds of people to your life who encourage you in a certain direction and you listen and you look for signs. And yeah, it was therapeutic around coming back and writing our story about the impact. And it's not a I tried to ensure that the book wasn't about uh we went here, we saw this, we ate this, because it's like showing you that's the equivalent of me, Lawrence, showing you my vacation pictures. Your eyes start to glaze over. You're like, okay, there's another church, there's another this, there's no, I wanted to be able to what's the so what around it? What is the impact of us traveling? What did we learn? What did we experience? What were some of the interesting and funny experiences that we had? How did we change? That's what I want people to gather. Not that we went on the sabbatical, but what was the sabbatical, a mechanism for us to do what, and how did it change us? And yeah, that has been writing a book and publishing it was a phenomenal experience. And now being able to get on stages to be able to talk about the power of pausing, or to talk about all the mistakes we made, I've made over my career, and also through this most recent experience and and talking about failure immunity, not necessarily becoming immune to failure, but immune to the feeling that failure has on us, and talking about that, or how the trip has developed this kind of healthy arrogance in my kids. Not going around boasting about what we did and the trip they went on, but they're much more clear about who they are themselves and being able to share that with the world. Like that's all stuff I can't put a price on. So yes, me as an individual has changed, but the domino effect or the reverberations in my own family has been significant.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

That's wonderful. And I love in your job interview, the spidey sense is you're actually present with yourself. You know, what a what a great gift. And you can make a decision from that place. And uh we are getting closer to the end of our conversation. And I just wondered if you could just expand a little

Failure Immunity: Recover Faster, Learn Better

SPEAKER_01 20:22

bit on this idea of failure immunity. Just give us a minute or two minutes because we're not gonna have time to dive really deep into, but that's a nice word and cool concept.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah, you know, it's something I was I don't remember how I came across it or why how we that phrase, but it was just this idea that you know we are all going to fail at something. We continue to fail. And so this idea that we always try to avoid failure. No, it's not about, you know, when we talk about failure, we often, especially in sort of entrepreneurship circles and innovation technology circles, where there's a lot of conversation and talk around failing fast, failing forward, failing often, right? But no one ever talks about the recovery. No one ever talks about when you make the mistake, how do you recover faster so that you can hit the ground running to take on that next challenge? And that's the piece for me that I've realized that myself, my family, like we are much more not only open to making mistakes, but we recover faster. So I developed this framework roughly that I now speak about in terms of failure immunity, about how you can recover faster and how you can use it as an edge. And, you know, whether it's sales conferences, whether it's kids, et cetera, et cetera. It's just this idea of being able to be able to feel the failure that you've gone through, to assess it. Don't do an autopsy, right? You know, like just figure out what is the lesson that's learned here and how can you apply that lesson and what is it that you need to shift in order for yourself to try again. And I think walking through some of those lessons and examples that we can see in business and industry and our own personal and family lives, you know, or in society writ large, I think those are all things I kind of point to when I talk about failure immunity. I'm always surprised at how interested people are in relation to that, but I think that approach has really kind of changed my perspective on making mistakes and quickly recovering from that.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Thank you for that. And we don't have a lot of time to go into this, but I my brain starts working like this black and white, like failure, not failure. And I'm like, it's weird. Like the idea that a failure is even a failure where a failure might be like a breakthrough. Like, I don't know your whole conversation about that, but I'm like, that's weird. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

So many examples you can point to where people have failed in the the inventions and the ramifications of what that failure has been able to derive, whether it's something that they've been able to sell or prototype or patent or just the learning that they were able to glean from it, invaluable.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Totally, and totally, and and especially in our community, it's so many of us feel like failure as parents and grandparents and family members or kids, and because we don't have these connections, but we don't know. We don't know what we don't know. And there's a great quote by this uh wonderful uh she is a engaged historian, Rebecca Solnid, and she says, I I don't know what I do does.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I saw the quote in your email. Yes, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, me too. It was one of my favorite talks. Yeah. So as we're wrapping up here, what else do you want to tell us about around the world and family

Where To Find The Book And Final Reflections

SPEAKER_01 23:18

days? Like, how do we get it? Where is it available? What's that one thing that we haven't heard about that that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah, I mean, the book was a phenomenal experience in terms of writing it. You know, my kids were the ones that came up with the title, so I'd love to be able to take credit for that. So it was all them in terms of around the world and family days. I think my oldest had read Around the World in 80 Days, and she's like, How about Around the World and Family Days? I'm like, oh, I'm like, I like that. So, you know, we would decide to play on that. And, you know, I wrote about a number of blog posts as part of our experience, and that blog, those blog posts turned into the book, and you can get the book on Amazon uh within Canada and the US. It's through, it's available at a number of bookstores, uh, Barnes and Noble, Indigo chapters around the world as well. It's just been a phenomenal experience to be able to tell our story. It's a copy of the book here, Around the World in Family Days. And, you know, it's it's I've just enjoyed the experience. I enjoyed talking about our experience of writing a book. And I love the fact that it was something that I never anticipated doing, but how much it's changed my life for the better has been uh an invaluable experience for all of us, including myself in particular.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Well, thank you for taking the time to come out and uh chat today. I've loved hearing your stories and this adventure you and your kids have gone on and peeling back the layers and coming back with all these changes. And I'm I'd be love to have the same conversation a year to find out what the actual new ramifications, the new expansions are, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yes, I would love that. I would love that because I'm just as curious and excited as you are to see what happens. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Awesome. Well, Charles, thank you so much, and I hope you have a beautiful rest of the day.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Excellent. Thank you so much for having me, Lawrence.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

Closing Thoughts, Hope, And Community CTA

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I was a little apprehensive about this interview because it's a little bit off-subject, but I think as we as a community are evolving and this conversation is shifting, that exploring like recovery, like this aspect of recovery, how do we re-educate ourselves so the next generation, the generation after that, maybe get some different tools that we didn't have is incredibly important. And I think this is a profound conversation. And I hope it was useful. And I I want to know because for me it was super useful. I need to hear this stuff. I need to hear that there's hope, there's change, there's communities that support each other, but there's also real intentionality around parenting. And I think this is the experience that we have, and we get to pass this wisdom on to another generation, hopefully our kids or our grandkids, but if not to someone else's kids or grandkids, that there are ways to shore up the family that we can't see because we're in these systems that we were indoctrinated into by our parents. And there are ways out that aren't the lawyer, the attorney, the judge. And for some of us, that's where we are, and we gotta be there. There's no choice, there's no way to go back and change that. But like this is like a beacon of light and hope for me, and I hope it lands that way. I want to hear from you. Please comment, share, let me know if this is useful. Loved having you on the show today. Link to the book and uh other resources in the show notes, and uh thank you for coming out again and playing in the the sandbox with me. I'm uh super grateful to be here today. And in case no one's told you yet today, I love you, and I'm so grateful I I learned to say that openly and and mean it. And I don't know you, or most of you. Anyway, have a beautiful day, and I will see you around the neighborhood. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.