26 Years of Parental Alienation: Anger, Hope & Learning - Episode 131

In this insightful conversation, Lisa Cohen shares her 26-year journey through parental alienation, detailing the emotional turmoil, the challenges of navigating the court system, and the importance of community support. She reflects on her evolution from anger to acceptance, the role of service in her healing process, and the lessons learned along the way. Lisa emphasizes the need for self-care, resilience, and the hope that one day her children will find their way back to her. This discussion serves as a beacon of hope for those facing similar struggles, highlighting the importance of living a full life while navigating the complexities of family dynamics.

Key Takeaways

• Parental alienation can lead to deep emotional pain and anger.
• Community support is crucial for healing and resilience.
• Navigating the court system can be a long and arduous process.
• Self-care and living a fulfilling life are essential for parents in crisis.
• Hope exists, but it must be tempered with realism.
• Service to others can be a powerful tool for personal healing.
• It's important to embrace life and find joy amidst struggles.
• Children may not recognize their own challenges due to alienation.
• The journey of healing is ongoing and requires patience.
• Every parent's experience with alienation is unique, but shared struggles can foster connection.

Chapters

00:00 - Navigating Parental Alienation: A Mother's Journey 
02:43 - The Evolution of Pain: From Anger to Acceptance 
05:58 - Finding Community: The Power of Support Groups 
08:41 - The Long Road: Understanding the Court System 
11:57 - Living with Hope: The Reality of Alienation
14:45 - Embracing Life: Finding Joy Amidst Struggles 
17:46 - The Role of Service: Helping Others Heal 
20:46 - Lessons Learned: Advice for Parents in Crisis 
23:42 - The Importance of Self-Care: Living Fully 
26:48 - Legacy and Hope: A Mother's Unwavering Love

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Connect with Lisa Cohen:
https://www.jump-parenting.org.uk

Please donate to support PAA programs:
https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXSsa bottom part

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email-         familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Framing The Pain And Big Questions

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, when we first went to court, I was really angry that somebody was trying to judge me as a mother because I was really trying to do my best, you know, working part-time and being there for my boys. And I really wanted it all and to give all of myself to, you know, bringing up my boys in the best possible co-parenting way as I could.

Meet Lisa Cohen And Her Story

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Are you stuck in the middle of a acrimonious divorce? Are you in court all the time? Is your mind completely consumed by parental alienation, estrangement, erasure? Do you just want to get your kids back, or do you just want to get a relationship back with another loved one? Like, how do you last year after year? And what is the evolution of the pain as time goes by? Those are the questions we're going to be answering today. And today I have Lisa Cohen on the show who has been struggling with parental alienation for 26 years and 25 years ago before anyone knew anything really about parental alienation was out there advocating for change and stuff. So it's a really poignant, insightful interview that I think will be really useful and also give people a little bit of an arc of what this challenge looks like. And we talk a little bit about getting our lives back and putting down some of the going accord, ruminating thoughts of starting to live a rich and full life so we're fully available and accessible to our kids if they do come back. So if you're new to the show, my name's Lawrence Joss and this is Family Disappeared. Got some great resources in the show notes. We have a free 12-step program for rental alienation anonymous, community, community, community. You're going to hear Lisa talking about community in the show as a foundational part of her surviving to the degree that she has with the struggles she is going through with parental alienation. And we also have 501c3 nonprofit. Please donate. And you're not donating for yourself, you're donating for the next person that hasn't found the resources yet, so we can help keep everything free. And with that, let's hear what Lisa has to say. I remember I was at a 12-step meeting. God, I I got sober when I was 36. I was probably somewhere right around 37, 38, and just in the beginning stages of parental alienation. And I was talking to another old timer, and he was saying it might take you 10 or 15 years to get a relationship back with your kids. And in that moment, I hated this human being. I'm like, who says that kind of crap? Who who says that out loud? It was super antagonistic, frustrating, hurtful, scary. And and there was wisdom in this, and this person had been through the struggle and knows that time takes time, and sometimes stuff gets repaired, and sometimes it doesn't. And my nervous system couldn't handle it early on. And a lot of people with the amount of information that's out there now are intervening the system so much sooner, and they don't have to go through this stuff. But if you're a long hauler like me, you know what I mean? This learning to live our lives fully and help other people is monumental in getting through this. And I just wanted to throw that little tidbit in there, and now we're gonna jump into the conversation with Lisa. Today I'm very excited to be interviewing Lisa Cohen, and I want Lisa to have an opportunity to introduce herself to the community. So, Lisa, if you can please introduce yourself to the community, let them know a little bit about you and how alienation has affected your life in a real brief moment.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yes, thank you, Lawrence. Sadly, I'm an alienated mother of uh 26 years. I live in sort of northwest London. I am uh a professional lady. I studied pharmacy and um yeah, probably a victim of being a 20th century working mum. But um life life is better now. I'm married late because I went through all the academic stuff and gave positive hope and was really committed to my marriage, but sadly it didn't work out, and the ensuing acrimonious divorce left me bereft seeing my two boys alienated from me when they were just over six years old. Life has been a journey over the last 26 years. I have no contact with my children whatsoever, and I now have grandchildren that I don't see. Soon after I started going through this quagmire, I joined a community support group for the divorced adults and met some fathers who were going through it, and as a consequence of that, we were committed to set up a support and lobby group called Jewish Unity for Multiple Parenting. And that was very a positive experience, but you can't give your it your all forevermore, and I'm very much on the on the um back burner these days. People do know I'm around, I'm definitely much more low-key. And I was surprised you found me. And this is the first interview I've done actually going public with my name. I've always done these interviews and articles for publication using a pseudonym because I've been very protective of my two boys, but they're old enough, and if they come across it, uh maybe it may trigger something in them that I'm trying to do something positive to re-engage with them and also to help other parents and children who've been through this.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Thank you, Lisa, and great to have you on the show. And that takes a lot of courage to step out of the shadows to some degree and show up with your own name and kind of like step into that and and be of service to the community in another way. So I just want to acknowledge that and appreciate you for that. You know, that that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, I mean I sort of look thought long and hard about this as I I've I you know I've done interviews anonymously for uh BBC um programme on paranormal alienation uh back in 2016. I've done some publications for national press in the UK. And as I said, my boys were much younger then, and I used a pseudonym because I really wanted to protect them. I've always wanted to protect them. That's always been my you know, remit because they've never asked for any of this. But I just felt it was the right time maybe to do this in a more public way. I've got nothing to hide, so you know why not?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Right, it's such a mixed message with parental alienation because I know at least for me, like I'm hiding in the shadows sometimes. What can I say? Who can I say, when can I say it? And at times I've created harm by talking too much in a way that has been harmful. But the more I step into this light and switch from the I perspective to the we perspective, so go towards the community in this universal pain versus my pain has really been life-changing. And it sounds like you've been on a very, very similar journey where it's really shifted to service.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, I think you're completely engulfed with fight to have your kids remain in your life early on, and as time moves on, you realize you've done as much as you possibly can do. You've learned to live with yourself and the situation, and and if you can help others, then it's time to reach out and try and do so.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah, and I I know you mentioned the the organization that you started jump, but I'm gonna come back to that a little bit later in the interview. So, what I'm gonna do is like 26 years is a is a long time. In your experience, how has the pain of alienation evolved for you? Like if you had like a timeline early on, crazy, couldn't function, couldn't do anything, and then just give me like a timeline of what it's looked like for you roughly.

Losing Contact And Facing The System

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, well, as I said, I committed wholeheartedly to my marriage. Um I I got married quite late, and I think I was 34. I'd been through the whole academia and professional work life, and I suppose as you know, as a professional working woman of the 20th century, I wanted it all, you know, uh, you know, work, career, family. And sadly it didn't work out. And to begin with, I always had a sense that my marriage wouldn't last. He was a very challenging individual and subsequently recognised all the traits of a narcissistic personality disorder. Well, when we first went to court, I was really angry that somebody was trying to judge me as a mother because I was really trying to do my best, you know, working part-time and being there for my boys, and I really wanted it all and to give all of myself to, you know, bringing up my boys in the best possible co-parenting way as I could. And then when, you know, you go to court first time and the judge starts challenging you, and then you're you find out you're you're you know, this this man you'd committed your whole life to is making ridiculous allegations that you'd abused your boys, the anger, and as I said, your desperation. And then as time goes on, you have to come to terms with things, and I recognise being angry in court actually wasn't to my uh benefit. The judge turned round and said, Well, if you're an angry woman, you must have done these things your husband has alleged you've done to the children. Nothing could be further from the truth. And of course, how do you disprove allegations that are not true? And then the learning process, I'm a scientist by training, so my sort of natural inquisitorial brain sort of took on, you know, finding out about what was going on. I needed to understand what was going on. And gradually you have to come to terms with it. I fought through the family courts for six years. I have got a well did get a equal share penising order, which meant I had equal parental responsibility, but unfortunately over those six intervening years the damage was done. The family courts at the time in the UK, even though we had judicial continuity, it was an old school judge, he just didn't get what was going on. And I just couldn't stop the flow. So to begin with, uh my ex-husband always had a complete fascination with our eldest son. He was like the Messiah. He never thought he'd get married, he never thought he'd have children. And our eldest son was, as I said, the you know, the apple of his eye, and his determination to actually win our eldest son for himself was well unhealthy.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Let me just stop here to take one pause. Let me ask you a question that just has come into mind for me. So you were 34 when you got married.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

More mature, working, educated. Like there's this thing that's happening in parental alienation. I got married at 21 or 22. Okay. You got married a little bit later, and there's people all over the bell curve. And it's interesting how we all land up in the same place because you would think with more time, more maturity, like there would be an age intervention within parental alienation escalating, but it sounds like in your case it wasn't. Do you have anything or insights you'd like to share about just that idea?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Well, I mean, every alienated parent I've met, I recognize we all married the same person, if you know what I mean. As I said, I was keen, I wanted the whole package, I got my career, and I wanted to settle down and have a family. And I was hopeful, genuinely hopeful. We met playing a mutually, you know, sort of love sports. You know, I recognized he was a little eccentric, but I was always hopeful that it would work if we both had the same sort of goals in mind in terms of having a family, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

So then in the beginning you were super angry or in court, angry, and then it kind of started to shift into education.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, and and being being a typical Aryan woman, I am quite a feisty character, and I'm a great organizer, I'm a great doer, or I'm a complete finisher, and I thought, right, this has just got to be sorted quickly. And I've learned a huge amount about myself, and I recognize this process is not going to happen at my pace. It's going to take time. I've got to learn to be patient. I've got to almost I learned to treat the whole situation like a business relationship with my ex-husband, because if you bring the emotion into it too much, it's totally destructive and doesn't help our children who didn't ask for any of this. I mean, you know, their lives in many ways, although they are getting on with their lives now, and I know a little about what they're doing, their lives have not followed the path that I hoped and prayed for them. And I cannot believe there isn't some psychological and emotional effect on their lives because of you know what they've experienced. And this was not their fault at all. People say to me, Oh, your children should know by now, all that, you know, but they just people just who have never experienced it just don't understand the abuse that goes on.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, I hate it when people say that the kids are going to figure it out or they should know by now just because they're like 30 and yeah, like you're saying, like they're traumatized.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

My oldest will be 30 in April, my youngest will be 28 in October this year. And they're, you know, they're damaged, but they're living life and they're getting on with life, but they are still under the mantra that they cannot be disloyal to their abusive father.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, and that's part of it, but the one part that you said that's really important that I find to be true for me too is that they're living their best life in this particular moment with the skills and the tools that they have available to them.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Absolutely. And that's all I want for them. I mean, I've resigned myself to the fact that, God forbid, I never see them ever again, as long as they're happy and healthy and live for forward lives. I mean, what more can you want as a parent for your children?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

100%. So the court was uh super upregulated in anger, stuff like that. When did like you start to see like a transition from this anger to this education to some other kind of place where you started to have a little bit more space to work through this in whatever way you chose?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah, not knowing what the court process was like initially, and gradually experiencing it after the first couple of years, and the big change was that sort of three years into the court proceedings, because my boys were four and nearly two when it all kicked off, so I suppose it was you know two and a half years. As I mentioned, my ex-husband, his remit was to own our eldest son, that was what he was after, and sadly, after about two and a half years, when my eldest son was about six and a half, the alienation was complete, and he stopped staying with me. I'd had weekend stays and midweek stays up until then, and the brainwashing was complete, and I was distraught. I could see it coming, and I couldn't stop it, but I was distraught, and then I knew I that this battle was still ongoing, and I pleaded with the judge who was, as I said, you know, taken ownership of our case to I begged him to protect my youngest son's relationship because I could see the same thing happening, and ironically, three years later, exactly the same thing happened. And you have to pace yourself, otherwise, you know, it destroys you. And I knew I had to be strong to do the very best for my kids, to fight for them, to try and you know protect their relationship with me and my family. Sadly, it didn't work out as I'd hoped, but yeah, learned a lot about myself. I learned to learn to be about patience. I learned to, you know, that these things take time, and you learn about survival. That's one thing you certainly learn about personal survival.

Research, Community, And Advocacy

SPEAKER_01 14:53

100%. I couldn't agree with you, More and it's such a arduous journey for all of us, no matter what direction or what rocks we're climbing over. Yeah, yeah. And did you have the experience where you're fighting really hard and the alienation took full hold, and then you started switching to more of a different kind of mindset from just functioning on like you as an individual?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, with my scientific background, I did an awful lot of research, and it was good to recognize that I wasn't the only one experiencing this. And as I said, the community in London was very good. And I joined a community support group for parents going through divorce. I met some fathers who were going through similar things, and as I said, consequence was that I felt empowered. I needed to try and do something to help other parents going through this so I could share what I was experiencing and try and avoid and help them avoid the pitfalls. And also, I just felt the family law was wrong. It didn't recognize what was going on, and there's still this these days, there's still big issues, there's complete parental alienation deniers. I don't care what you call it, the behavioral patterns, emotional and psychological abuse of the targeted children, you can call it fish and chips for all I care. It's it exists.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yes, and I agree with you. And I want to stay on some of these other points that aren't necessarily around the judicial system and around some of the wounds, but like this transition when you first went to your first support group, right? Because like I can't do this by myself. I try to do this by myself, or just with my family who are in the firestorm with me, and it just didn't work. I was gonna die. So, like you're saying you get to this first support group, and for the first time, I presume in a couple of years, you're actually able to take a breath and start to get back in your own body. Is that kind of what your experience was?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Well, as I said, you go through desperation and utter destruction, and then you go through survival, then you start living, and then you start embracing life again. So I suppose, yeah, the starting to live phase started after 10 years, and now I've got to the stage where yeah, I embrace life. I can't change, I've done everything, I can live with myself for what I've tried to do. I reach out to my boys as best I can, and you know, we've only got one life, and I'm not prepared to let it destroy me. And very wise words, and in Richard Worshock's book, he said, if you have to, I mean, I do hope and pray that they my boys find their way back to me, no guarantee, but the hope is eternal. But when they do find their way back, they have to find a wholesome person, they have to find somebody who's continued to grow and live and not be shrivelled and destroyed by this process. Because who wants to be with an individual is just half a person. I mean, maybe I'm very fortunate that I am, you know, a strong character, but as I said, I've learned an awful lot about myself. I mean, I'm still sort of outspoken about things, and I still very feel very passionate about things, but I think yeah, you learn to sweat the big stuff, you learn what's truly important in life.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I think the question that comes up, and I have a very similar experience to you where I'm living a full, rich, meaningful life. I miss my kids, I reach out when I can, I'm here, fully integrated to some now as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, me too. But you said like right around 10 years, you started to live life and embrace life, and there's this thing that comes up for me, like the shame and this guilt, right? Like I'm a parent, like how dare I live my life? How dare I get on with stuff? And and I have to work through that and I have to talk about that. And I'm guessing you had a similar experience, and what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah, I mean, certainly as a mother walk into the school playground, you know, and you've got the mothers judging you. What's this mother done not to have her children in her life? I mean, you know, I felt completely judged. So there was that element of it, and of course, when this is all going on and you're desperately fighting for your kids to remain in your life, and vice versa, you feel guilty about enjoying life and laughing and giving yourself permission to actually embrace life again.

From Survival To Living Again

SPEAKER_01 18:58

But when you were going through the transition of actually starting to embrace life, I'm not talking about the external world, the more interpersonal journey for you. You're like moving from thinking about the kids, being fully consumed, being in court to start taking baby steps to fully step into your life. Like, did you feel guilt and shame and thinking for yourself? Like, I'm a bad mom. I should be just focusing all my energy on the kids.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Absolutely. I mean, I started questioning my whole self, and because the allegations that I'd hit and abuse the children were constantly levied at me by my ex-husband, I mean, you know, I was close to my mum and I said, Look, if I've done these things, because I started, you know, completely doubting myself whether I'd lost the plot. And I said, If I've done these things, then I need to know I've done them. And of course, there was no truth in it whatsoever. But yeah, you do doubt yourself as a parent. What could I have done more? And and again, when people question you as well, you the self-doubt, even as you know, without intelligent woman, I think I believe I am, you know, you do. The self-doubt is just overwhelming. And you've lost so much. Even now, I mean, you know, Christmas for me is not a a religious time, but it's family time. I really struggled over the sort of the the holiday period, and you just have to get through it, even sort of like you know, 20 years on. You brush yourself down and you one day at a time and you get through it.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Totally. So even now, at times I'm hearing you still struggle with the holidays, feelings still come up, and I'm guessing like the period of being down is get just gets shorter as you build more resilience and more resources.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah, because as I said, you have that resilience, you've embraced life, you can see positives in life. I mean, I count myself as very fortunate. So I've you know, I've got a good life, I've got a lovely home that I managed to save, I've got good friends and family. I've been able to retire after getting my financial stuff all sorted, and it was a tough, tough 20 years. And now, as I said, I I try and give back in the community, and yeah, I I go out and enjoy myself without guilt. It's okay because you get to a certain age and who knows how long we've got left, and if you have regrets about not making the most of it, and as I said, part of that that I came to realise is that I need to be a wholesome person, believing that my boys will find their way back, and they won't find somebody who's angry, miserable, depressed, you know, but somebody who's embraced life, once and all, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, 100%. And by embracing life when they show up, you'll be able to embrace them too. You know what I mean? I think that's a really important point.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

And a question for you as you've gone through this anger research, living your life, like has hope shifted meaning for you? Like now at 26 years, what does hope mean to you? And does hope exist in some form or fashion?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Hope is framed with realism. You know, I've done a lot of research, I've done a lot of reading. I know from personal Personal experiences that and in fact my one of my closest university friend, her late husband, was alienated from his father, and sadly he was diagnosed with a terminal illness, and after 40 years, one email sorted things out, you know, cleared the air. But sadly, he didn't have much time with his father before he passed on. So I am a an optimistic person, but that is tainted with realism. There's no guarantee, absolutely no guarantee. You know, when people give you these platitudes, oh they'll come back, they'll come back. I know the reality. And I know how damaged my boys are. Again, being a typical area and I want things done now and on a time frame, or I've learned I've just got to be super patient. The no guarantees. And as I said, I still write to my boys regularly through a postal address, through a conduit, I get no reply, but at least I'm doing what I can, and the boys know that I'm still there, you know, and the onus is very much when they're ready, I am there for them 110%.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, and I like your very pragmatic approach because it is realistic that this might not come to fruition. And I and again, I think that's part of the journey of really living life and engaging life and finding yourself, is that you actually can get to the point and go, Well, this might not happen, and I'm okay too, and I would love it to happen. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

But it's still painful, you know, with family and friends who see their kids, you know, major events of their kids' lives. I was excluded from both my boys' blemits, I was excluded from my eldest son's wedding, I had no contact with my grandchildren. And I'm not a bitter person, but when you do go to family and friends who, you know, whose kids get married or have kids, uh their kids of their own, you know, this is still tinged with a bittersweetness, I suppose is the word.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yes, it's definitely damaging. And not damaging, it's it's definitely challenging to be around families and stuff. And for me, at this part of my recovery, I find a lot of healing in watching families connect in a different, healthier way than I connected and my family connected at the time when I was still married. So I find a lot of healing in being around families too. And I just want to go back to something you said. You said the boys are damaged. And I just like I'm not mad about the language. I think the kids are challenged. Are they damaged? Damaged.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Well, I suppose it's my perspective. They would never recognize they are damaged. Fair enough.

unknown 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So we also talk to this community of young adults that are alienated, also are part of our community. And I don't want to put them in this thing where this is negative connotation because they didn't do anything wrong. They're not damaged, they're definitely challenged by some of the systemic issues within the family system. So I just wanted to throw that into the conversation as well.

Language, Hope, And Realism

SPEAKER_00 24:43

I don't disagree. And yeah, I as I said, the language is very much from my perspective, but yeah, they will not see this. I also have spoken and met with a lot of alienated mums and one particular high-profile mum, her kids, she did re-engage with her kids in their 30s, and they will not accept or recognize in any way that they were alienated from her for over 10 years. So, as I said, I do understand those perspectives, and the the kids will have a very different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

And I'm curious, just to kind of wrap up your early experiences, when you were in the court system and you were doing your research and stuff, did it feel like at a point you became addicted? And like kind of you get sucked into the system of alienation, and so much of your time and energy spent in that that that becomes how you function. You need it.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Oh, it was all consuming. It were probably for the best part 10 years, it was all consuming. If I wasn't in court, I was doing all the support and lobbying stuff with the group of fathers that I was with. We were up at Parliament, there were consultations on family law, and we were involved in doing that. We went with community leaders, and then one that you know, one of the early projects we did, which I'm very proud of, and trying to pull all facets of a diverse religion together. We developed a parenting booklet which we were very committed to offer as a guide to parents on how they should separate and co-parent post-family breakdown. Took three years to get that together, and all the rabbis to agree. And that's not that's not easy. So, um, yeah, I think there's some positives that come out of it, but yes, it is all consuming, and you reach a point you think I need to step back, I can't do this forevermore. And there are as you probably know, there are people, parents, who just cannot step back and allow it to continue to consume them completely. Um, it's not healthy, is it?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

No, it's definitely not healthy, and it's super challenging to watch. And like you've said several times, like living your life, enjoying your life. We have a limited amount of time here to do a bunch of different things, and it'll be great to have our kids. And there's a lot of beautiful people out there to engage with.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I've met some amazing people who that have enhanced my life enormously, which I wouldn't have done under different circumstances, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

100%. And I'm gonna take a sidestep here and talk about this organization that you started on and how that helped or didn't help with your healing process. So, how many years in did you start jumping?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Within a year of my uh marriage breakdown, so again, the community very supportive, and I thought I need to start rebuilding life. And there was a divorce support group that was available, and as I said, you know, I lost some friends and I needed to start, you know, living again. So my marriage broke down in 20 uh two uh 2000, and in 2001 I joined this group and met with a group of fathers who were going through similar sort of situation, and so jump sort of really got off the ground in around about 2001. After about 10 years, thankfully, most of the fathers had gone through the process of re-engaging with their kids. There were a couple who sadly were in a similar situation to me and never reached resolution, and they moved on, and I sort of started taking more of a step back.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Just for clarification, you joined the support group, and the support group was already called Jump, and then you all collaborated together.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

No, I joined a community divorce support group and met a group of fathers who were going through sort of alienating stuff, and we came together as a sort of group, we set up Jump separately. So I would never have got involved had I not gone to this uh you know divorce support group. So it was a hugely positive conduit. I had all this energy, I had all this anger. I needed to channel it in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So it sounds like service was uh like as you're saying, a huge propulsion forward into recovery, into finding your own life, into helping other people, even though it wasn't your kids, it's really changed, you know, it's changed the trajectory of your life. So after about 10 years in jump, you just pulled back a little bit because it feels like overwhelming it.

All-Consuming Activism And Burnout

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, 10, 12 years, yes. You sort of, as I said, you can't keep going that at that intensity because as I said, it's all consuming. My court case came to a conclusion in 2007, so I obviously at that point had seen both my boys completely alienated from me. And I, you know, I I continued with the lobbying, the uh you know, the sort of responses to government consultations on UK family law. But as I said, you end up going around in circles and you realise things don't change quickly, and yeah, you become a little I suppose a little disillusioned. I also because of I had the child, my ex-husband was determined in my mind to destroy me. He came after me financially as well, and I was paying child support as well. And so I was working, and that was tough, you know, holding down a job at a reasonable level because I needed the money. You can't keep going on all fronts at all intensity, all times.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

So I'm curious now at this part of your life, you're living your life, you've done a lot of service. When people ask you, hey, how are your kids doing? Do you have a standard response for people? Do you engage? Like, what does that look like for you now?

SPEAKER_00 30:19

It depends who asks me. Now, interestingly, my family care deeply about the situation, but it's a bit like bereavement. Many people don't know what to ask or how to ask. And often my family are not the most attentive in asking how things are, whereas I have phenomenal friends of long duration who always ask, Have I heard? Is there any news? So, yeah, it's a mixed picture. And actually, for some members of my family who don't, I feel, give me the support that I ask for, it's very painful. But you can't fall out with everybody because they're not doing what you would like them to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Right, you take what's offered and you accept that and you go resource yourself somewhere else. And just to say my question again, like we're talking again about other people's stuff. Like, do you have if you bump into an old friend on the street that you don't have any contact with and they go, Hey Lisa, how are you? How are the kids doing? Do you have a standard response? Do you not engage? Do you engage? Like, what have you learned over the years?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

It depends. I have a sense of awareness of their level of empathy. So if I meet people and get to know them, even if I haven't seen them for a while, I will be honest. Other people I will say, Yeah, my boys are doing this, that, and the other, but it's very superficial. So it really depends on the individual who I interact with. I have nothing to hide, and I feel I've got nothing to be ashamed of, but I think you have to couch your own personal response depending on the empathy of the individual that you're uh talking to.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, I heard someone speak one time and they said uh when people ask them how their kids are now, they say they're doing great because their experiences, whatever they live in their life is they're fine, and they don't engage with anyone unless they're super close people that they know are going to show up in the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah, yeah. As I said, there are some people that always ask. There's some people where it's much more superficial, and as you say, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're fine, they're doing this, that, and the other, and they're getting on with their lives, and that's it. You have to find your passions again, you have to find something that really engages you in life again. You know, I reach that point where it's okay to live life and enjoy it again. Yeah, I I'd love to be there and give up everything I have or share everything I have with my kids and my grandchildren. I can't at this moment in time. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy and be passionate about things. So sport's always been a big thing for me. Love my sport. Big soccer fan. Got rid of my ex-husband De Bolton Arsenal season ticket, and I love it. I'm ranting on the terraces at the weekend. I know that's probably a real surprise, but yeah, it's great. It's not illegal, it's not immoral, and it's not fattening, it's bloody expensive, but hey.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I love that you're into soccer and you're out there yelling and screaming and stuff I grew up.

Building JUMP And Stepping Back

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah, you should have seen me screaming at the TV last night when I was at my and travel. I go off traveling on my own with a group of uh more mature people, but I can do it on my own. So, you know, I've been able to visit places like India, Japan a couple of years. I want to experience life, and look, I've been fortunate that I've got myself financially in a position that I can do that again, so I'm very blessed in that respect. But it's it's life enhancing, meeting people from different cultures and everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

That all sounds very, very beautiful. And as we're getting closer to wrapping up, is there anything you'd like to share with parents out there or people that are thinking about being of service or starting something, or just your takeaways? Like what are the three things you'd say, hey, today, if you're really struggling over the course of the next three to five years, these are the three things I'd suggest you do.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

I've learned to be the ultimate diplomat. So when I was deeply involved with jump and speaking to parents, trying to offer them insights, always if you can avoid the court battle, because nobody wins. Nobody wins. Keep strong, keep healthy both mentally and physically, that's important. Eat well, sleep well. As I said, allow yourself to enjoy life and believe in yourself. I mean, you know, for me, I suppose I always wanted everything. I wanted a career, I wanted a family. Your kids don't completely define you, they're an intrinsic and vastly important part of your life, but you are still entitled to live your own life and uh yeah, family and friends. And the other thing I'd say, what was a huge positive for me is work because at home I felt a bit of a loser, I was judged, especially when we just before I got divorced, and and work made me feel like I was useful. So work was a bit of a saviour because I could be me. There's a certainly early on, it was I was living like a Jekyll and Hyde type of character. You know, I was trying to hold things together at home and couldn't be me because I was, you know, f in fight mode, whereas at work I could still be respected and make a contribution in a positive way, which as I said was very positive for for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

That's wonderful, Lisa. And thanks for coming out and having a a chat with us and sharing some of your experiences.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

If it can help one person, I feel like I've helped in a very small way. You know, and you do you do well to do these podcasts. I've I've tuned into a few of them, which uh yeah, are very insightful. It's a journey, and if we can help each other, then that's a positive.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah, and I would say the continuum of someone like you that's was started doing some advocacy years work 25 years ago and no one even knew anything about this and how that's moved through different phases, and now I'm in a phase, and then other people are gonna pick it up. I just think like we're all connected, and I think it's beautiful, and we're serving a bunch of people. So I wanted to thank you for all the work you've done in order for us to get to this point so we can keep pushing forward.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

And yeah, no, I appreciate your efforts. As I said, we all have different energies and can all do things in a different way, but all for the same sort of uh yeah reason, I suppose. And as I said, I'm sure like like me, I just want to leave some sort of legacy for my boys, you know, that they know that you know you never stop trying for them, you never stop hoping that they will engage one day.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

100%. Well, thank you so much, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Pleasure.

Boundaries, Belonging, And Small Joys

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Wow, what a great conversation. Right. We touched on some really interesting, salient points about Lisa's journey, but I I gotta tell you, the thread for me is service. Early on, service, understanding, helping people, and reclaiming your life. You know, and so much of what we do here is really talking about resources, like how do I find myself spiritually, emotionally, and physically? How do I get to that place where I'm a full human being living a full life? So I can be of the maximum service of my children to come back, but I can be the maximum service to community, to friends, to work, to all these other places too. And this is what it's really about, because um we don't have any control at a certain point with our kids chronologically and with all the dynamics of different people and stakeholders in our own personal environment ecosystem. So living our life is incredibly important. So I just wanted to say thank you for coming out, listening to the show. We are a 501c3 nonprofit. Please donate, help the next person come in. And there's so many resources we want to bring to you. And as we're able to resource ourselves a little bit better financially, we'll be able to start a bunch of new trainings so you can actually practice some of the stuff we've been talking about for the last two and a half years. Please like, share, comment, and let anyone know that doesn't know about this resource so uh they can get plugged into. And uh with that, I love you. Sometimes it makes me chuckle when I say that, but uh it's true. I just had a a dear friend pass away a couple days ago, Tommy M. And uh, first time in 12-step program, he used to say to me, in case uh no other man's told you today, I love you. You know what I mean? And uh, had a huge community of men around me when I first got into support groups and 12-step programs, and uh it changed my life. Just sharing that I use that now and I say I love you, because I I learned that from Tommy. So I just wanted to give him a plug wherever he is in this uh this the system of the dimensions. I uh I hope he can hear that. And uh thanks for coming out and playing in the sandbox, and we hope to see you around the community at a meeting, at a podcast, or some other event soon. Take care.