Living With Unresolved Grief | Parental Alienation & Nervous System Healing

This conversation delves into the importance of emotional authenticity, the transformative power of somatic therapy, and the dynamics of parent-child relationships. The speakers discuss how communication patterns affect emotional expression and the significance of attunement in therapy. They explore the concept of hope and its relationship with personal growth, emphasizing the connection with nature as a means of grounding and self-discovery.

 Key Takeaways

• It's huge to be like, what would have that been like if my mom really saw me.
• Somatic therapy and somatic tracking can be life-changing.
• We continuously keep meeting each other where we are in therapy.
• Stripping away identification with emotions can lead to self-discovery.
• We don't take our emotions with us when we die; they are temporary.
• Sitting with feelings increases capacity for compassion.
• Parents often take their children's emotions personally, which disrupts the dynamic.
• We forgot what we would have liked when we were a child.
• There's a natural drive within us to explore and grow.
• It's normal to feel a range of emotions, and we share these experiences with humanity.

Chapters

00:00 - Exploring Emotional Authenticity
02:57 - The Power of Somatic Therapy
05:43 - Parent-Child Dynamics and Emotional Expression
08:50 - The Role of Communication in Therapy
11:52 - Attunement and Authenticity
14:55 - Navigating Emotions and Hope
17:57 - Connecting with Nature and Personal Growth

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Connect with Brea Segger:
https://www.breasegger.com/

Please donate to support PAA programs:
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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email-         familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Welcome And Community Resources

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I think it's huge to be like, what would have that been like if my mom really saw me? If she really allowed me to just be me, which means me, angry, me, me, sad, me, me, happy, me, me, busy, me, like all the different versions of us.

Somatic Therapy Over Talk Therapy

Staying In The Body While Listening

Identity, Impermanence, And Spiritual Framing

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I did talk therapy for so long, and I didn't really get anywhere. Then I started working with somatic therapy and somatic tracking, and it was life-changing. So if you're struggling working with therapists and you feel like you're treading water and you're not really going anywhere, the show is a great access point on different ways that therapists can work with you and meet you. And I think it's a great example of just how the conversation flows and what we talk about to role model different ways to be in therapy. It's not a therapy session, but you can see the flow of what's going on, and we just continuously keep meeting each other where we are, tracking what's going on, and we have this conversation that just expands in different directions. And I think it role models life. So I'm really happy with the show. And if you're new to the community, welcome of what I'm saying doesn't make any sense. Welcome. There's over 140 other episodes in the can. You can find episodes around therapy, around attorneys, around panels of parents talking about different stuff. There's so many wonderful things there. So if you find a show you don't particularly like it, find a show, try different shows. Yeah, and we'd love to hear from you at family disappeared at gmail.com. Great stuff in the show notes. It's a free 12-step program, Parental Alienation Anonymous. It's a wonderful, loving environment with a lot of people doing phenomenal work. It's peer-to-peer and uh has saved my life. And like, comment, share, let folks know what we're doing. And with that, I'm gonna stop talking. Well, I'm gonna continue talking just about something else, but let's get into the show. It's a super interesting interview. And as we're going through the interview and we're talking about the stuff, and Bree's talking about staying in your body, getting out of the mind and the ruminating thoughts and feel what's happening in your body, I felt myself start to get emotional. I felt some tears kind of well up welling up in my eyes. I say this because even in just listen to the episode, I I welcome you to start exploring what's happening in your body. Tension, feelings, nothing, but it's a really great way to have a snippet of what a different way of therapy can be and how your body can react if people are just meeting you where you are and letting you have your own experience but still holding a really safe space. Yeah. So let's check out what happens on the second part of the show. And you spoke about uh identity before, like this identification with grief or this identification with anger, like through the process, if you're peeling away the identification and the attachment to anger or or grief, that feels like what does the path look for people stripping this part of themselves away and being able to sit with who they are and not the identity? Do you see a particular arc in your practice or is it just different person by person?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

It is different person by person, but I want to say there's a little bit of a spiritual component to this, and it's around death. So the way I explain it is this you don't take your brain with you when you die, right? So it just doesn't really matter what you think happens after you die, but I think we can, we know the brain's going into the ground with our body. So we're not taking our mental capacity with us when we die. We're not taking our physical body with us when we die, in my opinion. I may be wrong. I don't believe we take our emotions with us when we die either. Those are connected to the brain and the nervous system. I believe that we're we're something more. There's this intangible force. I often call it infinite creative potentiality, but there's this connectiveness, this source within all of us, however, someone wants to call it or relate to it. And even if they don't, that's okay. But why I bring that in is because we don't need to, that helps us realize, I should say, that we aren't the identification of the physical. It changes how we feel right now. I'm energized, now I'm tired. Now my body feels pain-free. Oh, now my ankle is sore, you know, now I'm angry, now I'm happy. Like all of these things are constantly changing. They're sometimes getting really big, they're sometimes lessening, sometimes it feels very forceful, other times it doesn't. The emotions come together, they disintegrate. So everything is very temporary. And when we really start to understand that, we realize, well, okay, then is there something else there? What whatever we want to call it or give a name to it, but is there something else there? And then therefore, that identity of everything else maybe doesn't have to be so important.

Emotions, Change, And What Remains

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I like bringing the spiritual component to that. That sounds really useful and resonates uh a lot with me. And also in what you were saying before, you were talking about communication patterns to some degree, where when we're feeling tension or anger, and sometimes it comes out in how we relate to family members or people that we work with or or something else that's going on in our life. And these communication patterns with also accessing these new feelings in our body out of the cognitive and starting to feel anger and starting to feel despair or grief or whatever it is, do you traditionally see your clients' communications patterns start to follow the arc of the openness of having more expansiveness to actually sit with their feelings?

From Self-Compassion To Parenting Compassion

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Well, yeah, and when you when you can sit with your with your feelings and those emotions, you're increasing capacity for yourself. There's often more compassion. If you're giving yourself the time to be with that, that coincides with like allowance and compassion for self. So what happens when we start to create that more inwards? Well, now we're gonna find we have more allowance and compassion for our children. And now, like a lot of things I see with with parents is like, my kid is so angry, and like I just don't even want to be around them, and I'm so mad now because my child is angry, right? And they take it personally often. However, we often take like however our kids' behavior is, we take that personally as though that's something against ourselves because they might say, I hate you, I'm mad at you. And and I see that you know, the parent reacts like they their inner child goes into reaction of like, oh my God, this person doesn't like me, you know, their little their little boy or that little girl inside of them has a reaction to that, and then we get like we get this force of like making it go away, fix it, you know, invoke discipline, whatever that is. So when we really understand that the child is also just having an emotional expression, and we're in a pace of compassion and spaciousness ourselves, we give that to them, which allows the child to then have a completed cycle of that emotion. And so then what parents find, of course, over time when they just sit there with their child, not trying to fix their child, just like we don't want someone to fix us, just being there, but allowing it, witnessing their child, that creates a different level of trust between the two, but also the child's learning how to trust themselves, their body, their emotions. And so this changes the whole dynamic and the whole experience for both the parent and the child.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

That's a beautiful answer. And I and I think so many people within the community struggle with that. I hate you, I'm never gonna talk to you again. You're the worst parent in the whole world. And within the process of the work that you're doing, building the capacity, having more compassion, and then just sitting with the child, which is exactly what you're doing with the client, I think is such an important part of therapy. Like people think I'm coming there for myself, and it's just I, I, me, me, but it's really an intervention in the family system.

Letting Children Complete Emotional Cycles

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah, and we somehow as adults, we forgot what we would have liked when we were a child, you know? Like I can't imagine what that would have been like to have a mom or a dad sit at the end of my bed and allow me to have a full emotional expression. I have no idea what that would have been like, but I can imagine that would have set up a completely different nervous system within myself that had more confidence, that was regulated, where I felt okay or I felt like I was enough rather than having to figure this all out as an adult. So if we really think about like what we have liked as a child, and I'm I'm always surprised at how many adults don't think of that. Like, you know, that was one of the things for me when I had kids. I was just so aware of like, wow, what was that like? And maybe that was because I remembered my childhood and what it was like for me, or I don't know. But I think it's huge to be like, what would have that been like if my mom really saw me, if she really allowed me to just be me, which means me, angry, me, me, sad, me, me, happy, me, me, busy, me, like all the different versions of us. And I think as parents, you know, especially now, I mean, it's a whole other topic to get into social media, so just like we can either go there or not. But let's just say our kids are put on busy schedules, generally speaking, and we're always like rushing them out to the door to the next thing. And that idea that they could be with their emotions somewhere between school and sports and activities and dinner when they have chores to do, like there's not much space, or there's not much allowance for that them to just be them. Then we add on technology on top of that, and and all of that just kind of gets put to the wayside because now they're distracted with something else.

Remembering What We Needed As Kids

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, and I I think I think that that's a great analogy. And for folks that are listening, this idea when our kids hate us and stuff like that, and as you're saying, when they're running from thing to thing and to contextualize it here, it's running from parent to parent or from conflict for conflict, and the kids trying to regulate the parents' nervous systems, and as you're saying, they never get an opportunity to feel whatever they're feeling, they're just trying to survive. I think that's really important for so many people out there to understand because my evolution was the kids are doing something to me, and as I grow and expand, it's like, oh, they're just trying not to die, they're trying to figure it out, and then there becomes more space to connect. Yeah, there's something so rich in in that and and your explanation of it, because I see this over and over as I'm talking to to parents where they're super angry at their 12-year-old and they want to villainize their 12-year-old, which is so disruptive to the system, to themselves, mostly to themselves and to the child, but actually allowing the kids to sit there. And I I have that picture of you know, a parent sitting at the end of my bed and being able to hold that space, which I didn't get either, because they would have done something where I'd have to take care of them, I would think, to some degree. And I think that's what's happening also with parental alienation estrangement, is like we're wanting the kids to take care of us. You know, I know for a long time I just wanted one of my kids to say I love you. You know, which is real but uh not necessarily useful in a lot of situations. So through the cu communication patterns, like what else? I I know you talk about communication and in being part of this work, at least in somewhere I read that and I could maybe project in something onto you that's not a huge part, but can you talk about a little bit of communication in this process and maybe how it influences the system that you worked out for yourself?

Schedules, Tech, And Lost Emotional Space

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Well, first is that when you start to communicate with a patient, a client from that allowance space, it's so different. It's like, why do we resonate with certain family members or friends that we feel like we can just talk to? Well, often it has to do because they're not trying to get us somewhere, right? They're not trying to fix us, and there's an allowance and there's not a non-judgmental part of that. So when you're experiencing this on the other end of that, and you're like, wow, I was just allowed to express. There was no judgment, no one tried to fix me. We start to realize, like, what if we communicated ourselves from the space to others? And this is how things change quite naturally, is like we can just talk to people and not have to put our ideas of what they should be like onto others or shrink away and think that they don't want to hear us at all. There's a middle balance that's there for everybody. And of course, there's going to be people that are more exuberant and more of an extrovert, and there's going to be those that are more introverted. But if we're using that as an excuse to sort of shy away and not show up, or we're like, I'm an extrovert, therefore I shall always share my opinion. And there's a fly. If you guys can see this video, there's a there's a fly that's like super excited about my face right now. Good old Costa Rica. Yeah, Costa Rica flies and the spiders and the all the little insects, the termites and such. When we give ourselves allowance for our, for us, for our emotions, there's a natural communication that comes out of that without having to take a, you know, by all means take a communication course if somebody wants to and learn different skills of articulation and stuff. But there's something about being in our natural self that is so enticing to other people. I mean, you know, when we talk about magneticism, why do people want to be around certain people? I think like, wow, I can name people that I don't agree politically with, religiously with, anything. I'm not, you know, there's no agreement. And yet I love to be around them. Why? Because they're authentically themselves. They're just being them. And so if we allow ourselves to just be us, it's absolutely insane how much our life can change when we just show up as us without the filters on, because that's all people really want. We just want to see each other in an honest way that's authentic to us. And that's the beauty of humanity, or that's the potential beauty of humanity. It's just that we've been masked by the patterning so much that we often don't show up as ourselves. We show up as something that we think others want us to be.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Totally. And would you would you apply the word like attunement, like attuning to yourself as part of this process?

Kids Regulating Parents And Misplaced Blame

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, I think I think that's a good, yeah, attunement. And with attunement comes refinement of the energetic subtleties. It's getting to know ourselves in a very much a refined way. And this is like sort of, you know, this is why each session is sort of layer upon layer, not in a way that's like we're gonna get through this layer or there's somewhere to get to. But the reality is that we hold all these unconscious patterns and traumas and big emotions in our body, and we give those more permission, we find we can become more attuned. But we can't go from like complete exterior living to full attunement in a second. Well, perhaps like a big disaster or some sort of traumatic event. There are exceptions to that, but in general, it doesn't go that quickly because our nervous system has to adjust along the way, and that takes some time. It's like, you know, the nervous system, okay, now I'm not holding anger anymore. Now I gotta figure out how to like, how does that feel? How do I walk in the world without so much anger? And then we find, oh, and now I'm working with like the shame that I didn't realize that was underneath of that anger. Okay, and now I'm gonna be in the world, getting to know myself without holding so much shame. So it's not jet, it's not one by one or like like that, but it's that those are just examples of of how sort of that process can work out in the real world.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Sure, that that makes a lot of sense. And and again, like just going back to your fly friend, like you acknowledging your fly friend and you know, having some self-deprecation around it, it feels like it's part of the process of getting to learn yourself and attune to yourself and be authentic. I think it's just a really great playful example that's happening right now that people can understand what it can look like, what a little evolution of just showing up and being present with yourself can look like, and it can just be a fly.

unknown 15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Well, and when we're ourself, there's no effort, right? So we don't finish our day being exhausted. And I think this was one of the biggest things. I had adrenal fatigue. I mean, a lot of people understand this, like the thyroid issues, all of the stuff, especially that women deal with, because we spend, it's not only because there's a lot more to it than that, but let's just say because we spend a lot of our time trying to be something that we're not or showing up in ways that we're not. And I see this with so, so many people all the time. And we don't realize we're doing it because we're just doing the things we think we're supposed to do. Then when we start to actually realize we can just be ourselves, like from morning to night, like all the time, we're not exhausted anymore. It's night and day.

Communication From Allowance And Nonjudgment

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yes, and sounds like a lot of work to get there and and sounds wonderful, you know what I mean? And I definitely experience that in pockets. And do you ever still titrate back and forth because you think you're too much, or your emotions get too big or too small, or something like that? It's still a titration and a learning and a continuous adjustment, or you just feel super spacious and just available with yourself all the time?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

What I would say is when I'm experiencing those emotions, which whatever that is, I would say that I I'm aware that there's a calmness underneath of that. I'm aware of what's really on the inside of me. So I don't lose sight of that anymore like I used to. That's just there, and I have such trust in that. That allows me to process these things or just be with them. And by process, I just mean be with them and allow them, not some fancy process to go through. I mean, we're human. How boring would that be if we didn't have these things happen in life, right? And I mean, and some of them are tragic and sad and painful, and others are amazing. And I think that's all just part of getting to be here and interacting with others and knowing that we can experience all those harder emotions and still have a spaciousness within us and a trust within us and a centeredness within us that allows those experiences to be hard but also okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Oh, that's great. Uh just switching a little bit sideways, like the word hope is a really intense word within our community because hope sprouts so many different feelings and so much confusion. And in your experience with folks and like this idea of hope or this path through or something like that, like does the the mind and the body experience those two things differently? And do you track like a word like hope, or you might uh attach a different word to it? Can you see that distinction happening when people get out of your head and get into the body?

Authenticity, Magnetism, And Being Yourself

SPEAKER_00 18:09

That's so interesting. I don't think I've used that word for ages. So I'm like, okay, hope. Interesting. Okay. So, no, that's not a word I use too much. I'm like, when's the last time I used hope? Hmm. But what I think it comes back to that same thing of there's something intrinsic in human nature which pushes us forward. We see this in nature, right? Like we're always seeing the tree, it is figuring out how to grow stronger and bigger. The flowers are figuring out how to bloom more, right? Animals are slowly creating new ways of being in their environment. So we're the same. So there's something, there's some sort of impulse within us that I think is part of this, the nature within us of that we that we are that pushes us forward. So, from that perspective, you know, we could put the word hope in there, but I think it's more of like this natural drive to explore, to perhaps become a more centered version of ourselves. Some might call it the best version of ourself, but I think it's more of an aligned version of ourselves. So, what does align mean? That means you being you, you being authentically you. And I know for some people that just sounds overwhelming. Like, what does that even mean? Where do I start? I lost that long ago. I mean, maybe as a child I knew what I wanted, and we kind of become so indoctrinated by all the systems, besides, you know, the social systems, how our parents raise us, uh, children at the school, our school, everything else. There's, you know, all of that, and we just sort of lose when we're doing jobs that we we hate, and we're just trying to, you know, make money and survive and raise our kids the best we can, but we lose sight of ourselves somewhere in there. So I think anyone can back, can come back to a place of alignment, and that might feel like hope. And I think that's a fine word to use too. It's just not one I use very much, but the hope is there that we can live from a state of peacefulness within us, a place of knowing within us. When we have this like sense of knowing of who we are, decisions don't become so big and so overwhelming. When we don't know who we are, we're like, okay, brain says I should do this, my other part of my brain says that, maybe I should do it this way, maybe I should do it that way. How oh my God, how do I make this decision? When there's a state of alignment and knowing, we just know it's almost like we make the decision before even recognizing that there's a decision to be made. So that's quite a different place to live from.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, it sounds really spacious to be able to trust yourself, to have uh enough practice with trusting yourself that it creates that alignment, the word you're using. I I really appreciate that. And I would say, like if you're talking to folks out there, what would be a couple things that you could suggest that they might be able to do to possibly just work with themselves, have a tiny bit of flavor of of what you're talking about and presenting today, so they can be curious and then see what their next step is?

Attunement And Nervous System Titration

SPEAKER_00 21:02

So this is gonna sound like meditation, but it's not. Okay. So when is the last time you just laid on your chair, laid on your bed, no music, no trying to get somewhere, and you just let yourself be there. And you had an awareness of, oh, there's my mind looping. Oh, my body, oh, my stomach sore. I didn't even realize that. Oh, there's a pain in my left foot. Oh, why am I feeling cranky? Oh, why is this aggravating me? You know, like there can be a lot of discomfort with that, but that is a great place to start. It's it's why 20 minutes? I don't know, that's always felt really good to me. It just it's something I made up. It feels really, it feels right to me. I do this, I call it pausing. I just pause two, three times a day to just be there. And that over time really, really creates a whole completely different relationship with ourselves, especially because there's nothing attached to it. You're not doing it to Try to feel calmer. You're not trying to like find enlightenment or get to some yogic state or you know connect with some light body, you're just actually listening to yourself. And I think we've as humanity have really forgotten to just do that. And that was a part of our ancestors' life. I mean, you had all the spaciousness and and time to be in nature, to sit that way, to listen to what our body's saying. So that's my my suggestion.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I love the suggestion. And I love that you're practicing it yourself and not just talking about it. And three times a day. That that sounds wonderful and a commitment. And yay, you. I'm like, that sounds cool. I'm gonna have to try it.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

It means we just stop scrolling for 20. The thing is, is now I know people don't have an excuse because we know the stats are out and we know people are scrolling for two to three hours a day.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

So Jesus, yes, I'm I'm guilty of that definitely. As we're getting close to wrapping up the show, like what else would you like to share with the community about yourself, your practice? We're gonna put all your information in the show notes if people want to reach out and stuff. Is there anything you feel like we haven't touched on that you'd like to just throw in for a couple minutes, or again, or just something about your practice or something that's alive?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I think the more that people can come to know that there's an okayness within them, even if they don't feel okay, you know, and it's so it's just like maybe they're listening to this driving in their car or whatever, and there's anger or there's guilt or there's shame. That's okay. It's okay that those emotions are there. Can you be with them for even a few minutes? Can you let yourself know that that's so normal? And we we somehow just forget that this is such a these emotions are shared by all of humanity. We all have them. And you know, the shame we feel that we feel something towards a person or a thing that happened in our past or something that happened to us that we don't want anyone to know, it is so incredibly normal. And we have so much more in common with each other emotionally than we realize. And so just giving all of that a bit of an allowance and knowing that it's normal and you're okay.

The Calm Underneath Big Emotions

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Thank you. And I'm gonna ask you one more question. And if you feel like you don't want to answer, do that too. But in the beginning, you'd you'd mentioned your adventure with permaculture. So you're doing all this wonderful work, and there's also this tangible thing with the earth or or some other kind of thing that's happening in your life that's helped connect in these pieces and helping you connect your body through the earth, whatever that looks like for you. Can you just talk about that for a minute or two? How important it is to have that too as you're doing this work and and how it influences the work?

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah. So I think everyone has something that they just naturally love. Maybe that's having a coffee with a friend, or maybe that's doing art or or knitting or you know, walking, whatever, whatever that thing is. I have a few. One of them is being deeply in nature, like hiking for days and days and days, and just being out in that space. I find that so much is able to be processed in that, and it feels to be in mountains in particular, just if there's a nourishment there that I that for me I can't really describe, but I feel so at home in those places. Oh, the fly's back. That's fun. Um but I get so excited when I put a seed in the soil and its routes. Seeing the power of this thing that was dormant for so long and then come up through the soil, I just I have always been so fascinated by that. And I love to grow food, I love to grow herbs. You know, I have chickens and goats, but I and I love them all to death too. But there's something about that raw power of nature, which is so unexpected. Like, why does one see come up and the other one doesn't? To me, I just sit with that and it just brings me back to this foundational space within us where there's complete potentiality and complete nothingness, and we can't really have the potentiality without the nothingness. And and I find that connection in nature to just be really meaningful for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

That's wonderful. I'll just share a quick story and then I'll say goodbye. But so I'm I'm out in Hawaii and I'm like, people are growing papaya trees. I'm like, how do you grow a papaya tree? They're like, buy a papaya, and if you like the papaya, take the seed out of the papaya and plant it in the soil. I'm like, oh.

Rethinking Hope As Inner Alignment

SPEAKER_00 26:17

So I think that's all my fun and yeah, and you're in the land, like especially in places like Hawaii, where it's the same thing. Let the tomato drop off and rot on the ground, and you're gonna have like 30 new tomato plants growing in one space, and you're actually gonna have to thin them out because there's gonna be too too many, right? So, I mean, Hawaii is the best place ever to grow. It's it's incredible there. Everything is so much easier than it is in other places. You have to think about it in other places, you know, like okay, seasons, what's happening? Hawaii is just so much abundance.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Totally. Well, thank you so much for coming out today and having the conversation and being uh patient with my technology. I I really, really appreciate that. And we'll grab all your stuff for the show notes. And yeah, again, thank you so much for taking the time for the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah, that was so fun. Thank you. And it was yeah, great chatting with you.

A Simple Daily Pause Practice

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Wow, wow, wow, wow. Uh great show and light, and also talking about real stuff that's happening in therapy and in our lives and how we find a path forward. You know, I just looked at my microphone to see if the battery was still going. And why that's so funny is I taped a couple of episodes without a mic. So there was just me making gestures but no sound, and then we had to re-record stuff. So anyway, that's a little funny aside, but just being able to track ourselves through even a podcast and start to explore these different parts of our body and realize different ways we can be in relationship with people and different ways we can do therapy. And even finding things that we love, like we talk about at the end of the show about um permaculture and what that can look like. But it's a way of building capacity, building resilience, and also having this real strong connection with our own bodies as we're moving through stuff like permaculture. We gotta be really present with what you're doing. You know, it's uh I think it's on some wonderful examples. And with that, thank you for coming out to play in the sandbox with me. Please like, share again, and love to hear from you if you have any comments, thoughts, ideas, likes, dislikes. You know, we want to we want to know what you think or not. And with that, I hope you have a beautiful day. And uh, in case no one's told you today, I love you. And I really can say that because I love myself. I really, I really enjoy me. Not all the time, but a good percentage of the time. So have a beautiful day.