Can You Stay Connected Without Access? | Parental Alienation & Grandparents

Lawrence continues with a Parental Alienation Anonymous panel to explore Part 2 of the grandparents experience, focusing on what happens after initial contact is made, but connection remains uncertain. Through lived experience, the panel reflects on navigating relationships with children and grandchildren where access, expectations, and emotional realities don’t always align.

The discussion moves through themes of pacing, control, aging, and recovery, highlighting the internal work required to stay grounded in the face of inconsistency. As perspectives shift over time, the conversation offers a deeper understanding of how to live with both hope and acceptance, reminding listeners that living fully is not giving up, but an act of love and integrity.

Key takeaways

• Recovery is for the individual, not just the relationship.
• Community and shared experiences are vital for healing.
• Patience and pacing are crucial in rebuilding relationships.
• Aging brings awareness of time and the importance of presence.

Chapters

00:00 - Understanding Recovery and Community Support
 02:52 - Navigating Family Dynamics and Generational Trauma
 05:44 - The Role of Nonviolent Communication in Relationships
 08:42 - First Encounters with Grandchildren
 11:52 - The Complexity of Relationships and Control
 14:43 - Pacing in Relationships and Recovery
 17:40 - Gifts, Boundaries, and Family Connections
 20:50 - Aging and Its Impact on Relationships
 23:58 - Legacy Planning and Emotional Awareness
 26:37 - The Importance of Self-Care in Recovery
 29:59 - Final Thoughts on Relationships and Community

Support & Community:

Parental Alienation Anonymous (PAA): Join our free 12-step support group with 16 online meetings weekly for parents, grandparents, family members, and previously alienated individuals seeking healing and recovery.

PA-A.org: Parental Alienation Advocates is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to fostering education, advocacy, and support for individuals grappling with the distressing impact of parental alienation, estrangement, erasure, and family disconnection.

All our services are free and sustained by grants and community donations. Your support helps us continue offering these vital resources.
Donate here: https://pa-a.mykajabi.com/donations-for-the-12-step-program

Connect with Us:
Email your questions or insights: familydisappeared@gmail.com
Like, share, and comment to help us reach more families in need.

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:
 
 Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email-         familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Recovery Is Role Modeling

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you're confused about what recovery is and support community as and stuff like this, it's people role modeling what to do. And it's also people role modeling what not to do. Recovery is not all about like goody yummies. Like sometimes someone does something like that and they're asking permission, and then the next person's like, I showed up and I said, I'm hey, I'm your grandpa. And then boom. You know what I mean? So we're learning from each other just like anyone else is learning in a classroom. You're never gonna meet your grandkids. Has anyone ever heard that? I have. I also heard I'm never gonna meet my grandkids until they're ten, which is such an interesting statement. And at that time, when I was hearing this from one of my children, you know, out of context, you're like, that is some interesting information, you know, and our conversation turned to acrimonious. And in that conversation, I think I told her she was selfish and narcissistic, and I regret that. So if that's your first thought, don't do that. You know what I mean? And and once I contextualize the situation and through a recovery lens and knowing that we have different realities and we're navigating possibly what it might be like to be a grandparent on my side and to be a parent on her side, there's all this family history and this transgenerational trauma. And she didn't get to meet her grandfather until she was 10 because her mother was alienated from her grandfather. So her point of reference in saying that is her lived experience and landing in my body. I'm like, hey, that's a crappy thing to say to me, and that's nuts. Who says something like that? And I was reactive, and uh, I'm sorry. And if someone's ever done that to you, I'm sorry. I'm taking sorriness for them. You know, it's a generational sorryness, it's a community sorryness. So this conversation today is great. We're talking with grandparents about grandparenting, what it feels like as we age in this episode. Like, what does it look like? What changes, and a lot of emotions, a lot of insights, a lot of aha moments, as Steven shared some great stuff about paces, which I can't wait for you to hear. And if you're new to the community, welcome. Hundred plus shows in the can. Find any subject you'd like. Please like, share, let people know about this. We are a 501c3 nonprofit. Donate for the next people, for the people that haven't found this resource, for the people that don't have resources, so we can bring them more resources. And we also have a free 12-step program where all three of us met there. You know, parental alienation anonymous. The information's in the show notes. It's a place to work on yourself spiritually, emotionally, and physically. It's not easy looking at ourselves and starting to change some of our behaviors because we want everyone else to change. But it's an opportunity to change the trajectory of your life in every single relationship, which might seem counterintuitive when you only want a relationship with your child, your grandchild, your parent, whoever it is. But I highly recommend it to. And I don't care if you're a child, a young adult, the 12-step foundation is great if you're willing to put in the work. Oh wow, I talk a lot sometimes. And with that, let's get into the second part of the show. So I also want to say we mentioned a lot of our program, and this is where we all met. We met in Parental Alienation Anonymous. It's a free 12-step program. It's shifted all of our lives. And in this conversation, every conversation, you see all the different intersectionalities. We have three people from very diverse backgrounds, and we're all experiencing very similar trajectories and a lot of things we connect with. And it's through a different languaging system, which is a 12-step system. And this happens to work for us, and other people might find other systems, but community is super important. And as you're building these relationships, how does it feel? We've spoken about this a little bit, that you might never get to know your grandchild. And then the layer that Stephen brought in is that you might get to know your grandchild maybe better than your child. How does that feel? And we'll we'll start with you, Stephen.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Well, that's sort of conjecture at this point because we're early on in my mind thinking this is a a way for my daughter and I to connect through the grandchild. And it seems like that's kind of what's happening, but that could very well be a reality too, right? Because these things change and we have no idea how things are, and there's a lot of ping-ponging and up and down and back and forth. And one of the biggest things I've learned in program is that recovery is for me, and it is not my job to control or uh tell my daughter what her experience needs to be. She gets to have her experience, and I can do recovery work, and then when her experience allows for a connection with me, I will be in a place where I can fully participate in that. And that's one of the biggest things I've learned because I see sometimes where mistakes are made where there's still this desire to control our alienated family member child or grandchild's experience, and we don't have that power. Thank you, Stephen.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

And what about you, Renee? What are your thoughts around that question?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Well, I couldn't agree more with Steven. They have their own reality, and it's very, very different from mine. You know, and having conversations with my kids, they actually remember a lot more than I recognized. They have a lot of memories. And recently I had a conversation with my eldest son where he wanted to talk about it, and they were good memories. But their experience around the alienation is very, very different. And it's not my job to tell him that he's wrong or that his dad lied to him or that I'm right or any of that. For me, again, being in that present moment, being open and available, I love that you brought up earlier the nonviolent communication, because that has been a huge part for me, you know, just not saying anything that can cause conflict or disagreement. You know, it doesn't mean I throw myself under the bus, but it means he has his reality, I have mine, they may not meet. As far as my grandchildren, I was thinking when you were asking that question, you know, for me, I think what it really was was, and I went back to this when I was going through this with my kids also. I had to really set ego aside because what jumps in for me is well, I wonder what my grandkids have been told about me. I wonder what they think about me. Do they think I'm a bad person? And when it was my kids, that's exactly what I thought is, you know, I've got a safe face here. I'm a good person. I a lot of people like me, right? I mean, I'm just like really like almost grasping at straws to try to force how they see me. That's so inauthentic to be doing that. Number one, because I can't control that. And number two, I will likely never know what my children or my grandchildren think about me, know about me, or have been told about me. So the more that I can let go of that and just suit up and show up today as the recovered woman that I am here right now. And the rest of it I have zero control around.

First Meetings With Grandkids

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Thank you for that, Renee. So much for covering what you had to say. And I'm curious, the couple times that you are meeting your grandkids, or maybe the first time that you sat down at a meal, were they like, hey, grandma? Were they like, hey, weird lady sitting at the table? You know what I mean? Like, what was that like for you? And how did it come out? How did it how did it feel in your body?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Well, I was very, very nervous leading into it. I was very emotional that entire day. As soon as I saw them, something intuitively told me not to say, Hey, I'm your grandma. They don't know me from Adam. They were very young when I met them. So I just went up and shook their hand and said, Hi, I'm Renee. I'm your dad's mom. You know, if they want to call me something else, that's completely up to them. But all of this work that I've done in recovery has definitely changed the way that I think about things. And I did have the opportunity that I mentioned earlier to joke with my grandson because I had a picture of him when he was like two years old. And on a very rare occasion, they came to my home and they were very clear about you have one hour, you know, like we're here for an hour and then we're gone. And I was trying to hold my grandson, and he was absolutely pitching a fit. You can just tell in the picture. He's so angry. He doesn't know me, he doesn't want to be on my lap. So when I met him that day, I said, Could I give you a hug? And he said, Of course. And I said, You're not gonna throw a fit, are you? Because I have this picture of you when you're young, of you throwing a fit when I tried to hold you. And he said, Oh, I'm much older now, much more mature. I would never throw a fit today. And so we had that joke back and forth, and then I said, I'll send you that picture, and he said, I would love that. And so we just had this great exchange that was really beautiful, and you know, like Stephen said, I can remember exactly where we were standing. You know, it's like it freezes that moment in time when it's something that is such a positively emotional moment.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Thank you, Renette. That's a super beautiful story and brings a big spout to my mouth. And you both mentioned a lot of great things, like we can't control the narrative, we can't control another human being. And then you also I think Renee, you mentioned this this idea that we might have different realities. And I think there's a lot of discussion, especially around this, that that our reality is the reality. I would say for me, that it's both and both realities exist at the same time. And I think a lot of what we're talking about right now is the intersectionality of the two realities, where it is like, oh, I get to have a meal, I get to get a video, I get to get a picture or a text. Like there is an intersectionality and a commonality, but a lot of the circles aren't interconnected right now, and that that might shift as people age or as it doesn't become important anymore. You know, I find for me like stuff that was really important five years ago, it doesn't have the same weight today, and that part of the circle has shrunk and the commonality gets a little bit bigger, even though nothing's changed. It's a super interesting phenomenon how that intersectionality, and I don't know why I'm going off on that, but that's what came up for me. And I don't even remember what the question was, to tell you the truth.

Intentions Versus Impact

SPEAKER_01 10:59

If you get a chance, remember that what you were talking about with our actions and where they come from and not thinking through to the impact, I think that would be a great subject for a future that's a big one.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

And that's cool to bring that up, Stephen. And this will be part of the recording, and that comes out of the big book of AA. There's actually a part in the big book of AA where it says, I was judging myself by my intentions, and everyone else was judging me by my actions. So that's where I got that from. I learned that in 12-step. I did not know that before I got to 12-step.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I mean, that hit me, you know, when I first heard that, but then you mentioned it again because I used to think that as long as I generated my actions or my words from a place of love in my heart, that was good enough. But the problem is sometimes those generated things from a place of love and whatever, the impact is much different because that person is in a different place and in a different reality.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

100%. And if people are curious and interested about this, there's a lot of social justice work out there where people that are marginalized are feeling people's intentions being good to help or to do something, but the actual impact based on their situation or where they are or their resources and stuff like that is completely different. You know, I used to own a business and I was doing all the spiritual work and I decided, hey, I'm gonna have anyone that wants to, you know, become proficient in English that works for me. I'm gonna bring in a tutor, let people have English, I'm gonna let people go volunteer wherever they want to go volunteer and that get paid while they were doing that. And I offer this to everyone, and no one does it. I'm like, I'm such a good person. Can't you see? And it took me a little bit of work and doing more social justice work than anything else to realize that these folks were just barely making it to work. They were emotionally attacked, they had to go home and take care of their family, cook meals, maybe drive a distance. They didn't have the same resources I had, but yet I was doing this thing that I thought was so beautiful and kind, and I was telling everyone about it. But it was through my lens for what I thought that they needed to make their life better, instead of asking them the question, I just like, hey, here's the answer. And I think that's what we're talking about. It's a really profound thing. And I want to ask you one follow-up question, Renee. You said when you met your grandkids for the first time, you're like, hi, I'm Renee. You know, I'm my oldest son's mom. Did you have a conversation before you went out there with your oldest son and say, hey, super excited to meet the grandkids. How would you like me to introduce myself? What would feel comfortable to you? Did you have that conversation?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

We did not. And honestly, that never occurred to me. It never occurred to me. That might have been a reasonable conversation to have. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really have an answer for that, but I like the idea.

When Grandkids Stay Out Of Reach

SPEAKER_02 13:53

And the reason I'm asking you the question as I prepare myself to one day, hopefully, meet my grandkids, like it's super important for me to be super explicit. And all those things that I'm uncomfortable about, they have to be mirrored in the opposite direction that the other person's going to be uncomfortable too. So it's super important for me to say to my daughter, hey, wow, super excited. This is a little bit awkward, I'm a little bit nervous. And how would you like me to introduce myself to the kids? Like, what does that look like for you? What would you feel comfortable with? You know what I mean? This is the same thing as staying in someone else's house, in barring someone else's car, and doing something else functional, going on a vacation with someone, is having these communications which is paramount and is the opposite of like the ostrich that I want to be. If you're confused about what recovery is and support community as and stuff like this, it's people role modeling what to do. And it's also people role modeling what not to do. Recovery is not all about like goody yummies, like sometimes someone does something like that and they're asking permission, and then the next person's like, I showed up and I said, 'I'm hey, I'm your grandpa,' and then boom, you know what I mean? So we're learning from each other just like anyone else is learning in a classroom. And it's a really beautiful environment most of the time, and sometimes it can be challenging. This is an interesting question. You start connecting with your child, your relationship continues to improve, and you're starting to have uh some resonance and some kind of continuity, but you're not getting access to your grandchild. How does that make you feel about the relationship and the complexity of what that could possibly mean? And would that be okay? Steven.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

I've had thoughts about that actually. Would that be okay if you know suddenly things changed and I had no access or no contact? It would have to be okay. I don't get to make the call on that, but I do get to make a call on how I respond to it. While that would be really painful, and I can acknowledge that that would be painful and that would be a great loss. I'm also grateful for the three opportunities I've had to see my granddaughter to the point about names. My daughter actually texted me, I think just before the baby was born, maybe a couple weeks, and she asked me, she said, Well, you got to pick out your grandpa name. So my son-in-law is uh Polish, and my dad's side of the family is all Italian. And so, well, what do you suggest? You know, I could have come back with I think I should be called Pappy or something, you know, but I was like, okay, I think I think this is a good opportunity to just say, you know, what what would you suggest? I mean, I have some ideas, and she said, Well, you could go with no no, that's Italian for grandpa. And I said, That sounds perfect. So I'm no no. I now my my granddaughter is not old enough to speak that yet. I think she just said she just said mom for the first time here a couple weeks ago, but but when it comes up, yeah, I'm I'm I'm gonna be no no.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

So that is beautiful, no no. I'll suckle in you no no.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah, but that's my thoughts about your question is just that, you know, that's out of my control. I mean, I'm available and ready to have a relationship at a moment's notice, and you know, I've made that clear in very subtle and non-offensive ways that have been accepted, and you know, we'll see where it goes. But the great thing is, I'm doing recovery work anyway, and I'm gonna be the best version of myself and continue to get better and better as days go by. And so when I get to have that full-on relationship with my daughter, my son-in-law, and their children, when and if that happens, you know, I'll be the best version of myself, which is pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

That sounds super, super wonderful. And what about you, Renee? What do you think about the idea of maybe having a relationship with your sons but not with your grandkids? How would that feel? And what are your thoughts about it?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

I would say for the most part, that's the situation that we have now. I think Stephen makes an important point when he says, I have really almost no control over that. I mean, I can try to reach out, and and I have, but I found that with my oldest son, he is more comfortable with me saying, please tell Trey happy birthday for me today. And he'll text back and say, Absolutely, mom. And when I'd asked if I could FaceTime with my granddaughter, I would say it was harder than a soft no, because it never happened. After that, is when I didn't ask again, you know, when it was my grandson's birthday, well, do you think I can FaceTime with him? I just said, please tell him that I said happy birthday. And my son said, Of course, mom, I'll absolutely do that. So, like I was saying earlier, my job is to be present in their reality. Another way that I've kind of tried to deal with that is I don't send his children gifts on their birthday yet. I might consider sending a card here pretty soon. But what I've done is send group gifts. So for Christmas, I said a group gift because I happen to know that they love to play family games and they are all very active athletically. And they've even been on America's Funniest Home videos for a very short clip. So when it came to Christmas time, I thought, ooh, I'm gonna send a game that the family can play together. And my son did make mention of it afterwards and said, gosh, mom, that was perfect for us. So, you know, I'd say for me, patience is key, that it is gonna be baby, baby, baby steps. And every time I think it's a good idea to jump forward and kind of push my agenda, I really need to think about that before I take action. And kind of in that same vein as thinking this earlier for people out there that are thinking, wow, this is a lot, like it's a lot to remember, it's a lot to process, you know, we're already emotionally a wreck about some of this stuff. How am I ever gonna do this? That's why we have people who mentor us in recovery. And even if it's not a mentor, you know, my mentor is another woman in recovery. But if there's something that I feel Stephen would be really good to maybe give me some insight into, I consider Stephen to be a closed-mouth friend in recovery. So I might call or text Stephen and say, hey, do you have a few minutes or something? I need to run by you. And that way we don't have to be like, I don't have to figure out everything in my brain. I have a resource of 30 or 40 people I trust in recovery that I can say, hey, I remember you sharing about going through this with your daughter. Could I run something past you? And that's such a valuable resource.

Gifts, Consent, And Pacing

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Thank you for that, Renee. And also articulating, you know, how community and family of choice and kind of like tribe works and 12-step fellowship is very similar to that, is you know, like if I don't know something and someone asks me a question, I can point them in a different direction, or they can tap into different resources and keep asking the question, and it's it's a beautiful way to live and also have access, like you're saying, to information. So we don't have to keep everything in our head. And and and I would say for me, with the idea of maybe having a relationship with my kids, but not with their kids, sounds super challenging and crappy. And at the same time, having a relationship with my child would be okay, and advocating and talking about the elephant in the room feels like it's incredibly important for my own personal well being. You know what I mean? That's really tenuous starting a relationship and building some trust and having some safety cues, but at a point, like acknowledging hey, this feels uncomfortable, I'm not asking. For anything, but I do want to acknowledge that I've never met the kids or or whatever, like that. And I'm okay with whatever decision you make. You know, my language is not really good now, but it's important for me not to be a doormat. I think Renee had mentioned that before, and it talks about that in the original 12-step literature. You know what I mean? Like we don't want to just be a doormat. And there's the part where we're just having contact where it's got to be super soft and super slow and super patient. And at a point, I can't stay in that place. My nervous system, my lifestyle, like who I want to be as a grown-up, needs to say, Hey, wow, I'm loving connecting with you, and this is great. And I also want to acknowledge that there's some discomfort about never meeting the grandkids. And I just want to say that out there because it is something that is part of our relationship, even though we're having a relationship without it. And I would communicate that, but I would never blurt it out in a conversation without thoroughly thinking about it for months with really coming up with language and that I want to use. That's why we have a sponsor, that's why we work the steps, that's why we reach out to other people. Is for me to advocate for myself is incredibly important, and I do it in every relationship. And there's a time. So I just wanted to add that piece onto it. And there was something important that you brought up, Renee, and it's this idea about holidays, birthdays, seven old days. And as a grandparent, do we send gifts or do we not send gifts? Do we ask permission to send gifts? Do we not ask permission to send gifts? I know you're in the early stages, Stephen, but like thinking about that, like what comes up for you?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

With my kids, I've just been sending, you know, gifts over the years, you know, just cards on birthdays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter. And to be honest, I didn't really, I guess I didn't ask if that would be okay. Probably should have, now that I think about that, that sounds like the right thing to do, you know, from a recovery standpoint is to ask that. But they've been accepted, but I could always come back in now and check on that, right? That's part of recovery too, is to come to we come to new realizations as we go along, and maybe that is something to explore. With my granddaughter, I asked, you know, would there be any gifts that might be useful? That kind of, you know, kind of asking those kind of questions. And those are responded to with, oh, she's already in, you know, this six-month to nine-month close. She's, you know, growing really fast. And so I felt like that was an opening where I could be okay to get a gift or send a gift or whatever. And those have always been responded, you know, my daughter has said, you know, been appreciative, and she didn't have to be appreciative, but she said thank you. And so that seems okay. But the one thing I was thinking that kind of ties into this that Renee was talking about was this idea of pacing. You know, I never really thought about that kind of that term that she's mentioned there about this idea that it's our reality may be at a different pace than our children's reality, and that we have to pace. I guess I was thinking about it because I did this bike ride today, and and actually the analogy I have to tell you because it came into my mind, I rode for portion of the ride today with a group that rides at a slower average pace than I do. So it was a group of 30 riders. I was on the front of this ride where I'd be on the back of the faster group, and there was a gentleman there who does this, leads this ride every week. And so I was kind of like, I'm not always in that ride once in a while. And I had to set my pace based on what he was doing. So I was just a half wheel behind him, and I just set my entire pace based because he was leading the ride, and that's the pace of this ride. It's not my pace, it's the pace of the ride. So I just sat just a hair off his wheel, just a little bit back, and I just turned along there and it was wonderful. But had I gone in there and gone, I'm gonna get on the front of this ride, and then I'm just gonna take off and drop people, and it destroys the ride, right? So that analogy came to me when Renee was talking about this idea of pacing. That's a powerful thing that I hadn't really thought about in quite that way.

Aging, Urgency, And Legacy

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Thank you for catching that, Stephen. I missed that and the analogy, and you know, waiting for the cadence of the person in front of you and riding with them and giving them safety cues that you're gonna stay with it within their pace. Like it's everything that we're talking about. I love that analogy. It's wonderful. I'm gonna give you credit twice, the third time it's gonna become mine. Like this gift thing is challenging. I sent a gift after I my first grandchild was born to an office where my ex-son-in-law works, and I don't know what happened to the gift. My mind says it was just thrown in the trash. I had zero contact, it was blocked on everything, and it felt really bad. I felt bad emotionally, it felt it created distress in my life. So I stopped doing it. You know, did it become about sending a gift is right or sending a gift is wrong? I think that's the wrong question. I think the question is how is my mental health? How is my spiritual health around that? Is there an attachment to me sending the gift that they're gonna say thank you? And I didn't do that, and I don't say happy birthday. Even though I have the kids' birthday, it's it's super hard. I feel super vulnerable. So I make the decision to love myself and if my daughter shares something, I say happy birthday, and maybe that will shift as we're having more communication. I'm not sure, but it's a super challenging area, and I got to start with my own mental and spiritual well-being because I'm off I'm coming from a place that's really grounded. This relationship has a chance. But if I come from a place where I'm trying to do all these different things on birthdays and cards and stuff like that, I don't know if I can show up as integrated. And what I've started doing, I've started giving a gift to my daughter once a year. That feels to me is like it's offering some resources to the family, and it feels like that's my way of participating at this level, and it feels manageable. It's not personal, it's just I'm giving something transactional and I'm moving on, and it might be a great idea, I'll let you know in five years, and it might be a really bad idea, and it's a strategy, but I'm also I want to parent, and we talk about parenting without access, and my idea of parenting is offering some resources. I have no access, so this feels like the best and most appropriate way to do that, and they can decide what they do or don't want to do it with those resources. So, yeah, and if you're a grandparent out there, like this is challenging. We're sharing a lot of insight and wisdom from our own experiences, and it's gonna be all over the place. So I would take what you like and leave the rest. And I would also say for me, about two weeks ago, I texted my daughter and said, Hey, is it okay if I buy the kids t-shirts? Because I'm in Hawaii with some kind of Hawaii something on it. And she texted back, Yes, the kids love presents. She actually said wrap presents or unwrapping presents. So I never would have wrapped the stuff. I'm like, oh, I need to wrap it. Again, for me, like this culture of consent, especially when we're rowing at different paces in different spaces with different intersections. Like for me, like really being conscientious with asking for consent is completely contradictory to how my family system works. People just did whatever they thought it was, and if you liked it, you liked it. If you didn't like it, you should have liked it. So I think airing on the side of consent for me feels useful. We're getting closer to the end over here. I got one question, and then we'll see if there's any touch points that I didn't come up that either of you want to mention. But I'm getting older. I don't know about you two, but I know for me personally, I'm getting older, I'm aging, there's less time in the world for me. And in relationship to my grandkids, like I'm thinking like urgency impact on my nervous system, letting go. Like, what's shifting as you're aging that you can share with other folks that might be aging too or might be younger and haven't got to that aging part that might be really useful to hear about. So let's start with you, Steven.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

That's actually been on my mind quite a bit recently. I just think because of the stage of life I'm in. So my dad right now got a really you know difficult health situation. He has a stage four cancer that's metastasized. And I would say, unless something changes, you know, my dad will not be here in three to six months. So that happening, I think I'm in the stage of life. My age is uh, you know, in the latter half of the 50s, uh, where aging parents become a reality. And I think, gosh, it's like it's done a lot. I don't even know, it's probably too big to really cover here, but it makes me acutely aware of time. It makes me acutely aware of how much loss I would feel if I didn't have a relationship with my dad and how grateful I am that I do. And it makes me feel that sense of loss of time with my daughter and my son more acutely, too, I would say. Even though both of those situations I'm having more contact now than I did, say even a year ago or a year and a half ago. It feels, you know, that feels a little heavy, feels a little emotional, to be honest. You know, I have these thoughts of I would never want to be separated from my dad at this time in his life. And then I have those thoughts of, will I or won't I be separated from my kids at that point in my life? And then I go to how do I leave a legacy for my children if I don't ever return to meaningful contact, you know, with them in the way that I would hope. And what does that look like? And how do I write that? And does that go in a will? Or, you know, they talk about with you know, planning wills and stuff like that. Do you they talk about legacy planning now, you know, which is kind of an interesting thing, and we're going through that right now. And the person who's uh preparing it was like, Do you want to do this uh coaching and legacy planning session? And at first I was like, no, and then my dad's been ill, and I'm like, um, yes, I think I do want to do that legacy and planning session. It's a whole big mixed bag of emotions, and I'm just trying to be present with them, and I have no idea what that outcome will be like for me as a dad and a grandpa to my children, at least two of my children.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Thank you, Stephen. Well, what about you, Renee? Aging, expectations, patience, urgency.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yeah, so I was in my late 30s, mid-30s. Yeah, I was in my mid-30s when the true alienation started happening. So back then, of course, there wasn't a big sense of urgency because at that age, the age my children are now, I felt like I had forever. You know, I just wasn't that worried about it. And I I never dreamt that this could be over 30 years for me. I think the difference would have been had I had parental alienation anonymous, then I think things would have transpired much more quickly. Now that I'm in my almost middle 60s, it really does weigh on my mind. And I have to do my part. I did send my son a 40th birthday present this year. I have not sent him a birthday gift, I don't think ever. I've sent a card, but I was so afraid of making a mistake that I really stayed pulled back from that. But it felt good to send him a gift for his 40th birthday. He was very grateful that I remembered his favorite sports team, and I sent him a shirt that reflected that. Now, with my other son, again, I'm getting older. Likely I will start sending gifts here and there as I can. But the truth of the matter is, with my youngest son, he is much more out of contact. I have no idea what I'd send him. I have no idea what he would like. And when I have sent gifts in the past, there was one in particular, I sent it three times. And he kept saying, Mom, sorry, I forgot to go pick it up at the post office, you know, and can you send it again? So I did, and it got returned again. And I sent it one more time and it got returned again. So I'm a little hesitant to send them to him. But you know, it's trial and error, it's trusting your gut, it's trusting in your recovery. And again, when all else fails, run it by somebody else if you're not sure.

When Trying Becomes Harmful

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Thank you, Renee. And I would say for me on the idea of aging and my relationship to alienation, I think early on in alienation, like the primary relationship of me with my children was massive. There was no space for anything else. I just wanted to be dad. You know, and then the grandkids come along and it's like, oh wow, I want to be part of that. I want the grandkids to know who I am. And I would say in this stage, as I start to get older and I look at this arc of alienation, the most important thing for me really is not my relationship with my kids or my grandkids, it's my relationship that my kids have with each other and that they potentially have with their nieces and nephews. You know what I mean? So my perspective has definitely changed. I'm not exactly sure what our relationships will look like. I'm available, I'm doing the work, I'm showing up, I'm helping other people, hopefully, sometimes. Yeah, so I'm seeing that shift as I change and also letting go. Like if I want to give a gift of some kind of resources in the past, I wanted to know how they were going to be used. Were they gonna be used for what the intention was? And now I'm like, no, that's just like me asking for something and being nice, but having an attachment to you saying something nice back, and that that's super shifted as I'm aging, and it's an edge, it's an edge to shift to that, totally letting go, even on resources like that, and letting go of the relationships in a different kind of way where it doesn't have to be about me anymore. There's actually space that it can be about other people, and that's been a huge shift in my maturity and and my aging, and also in me advocating for my own life and living a really rich and full life and building a really strong community. Is there space for me to let go of potentially being a father and being a grandfather in some aspects with some of my kids? So I would say that. And we're nearing the end here. So we've covered a lot of topics, we've covered a lot of stuff, and I'm gonna give you each a chance just to share on anything we might have covered or something that might still be alive with you for a short period of time. Let's go with you first, Renee.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

I just want to quickly go to one of the questions that you had sent us in advance. One of the questions you'd asked was, Is there ever a point where continuing to try becomes harmful to you? And I know for me there absolutely was. After about that five-year mark, I would say, and I was extremely depressed and frustrated and angry, I did have to start to consider my own welfare and my own mental health. And I was so grateful that we were given these questions in advance because you know it's been over 30 years. It takes me a while to go that far back in time. And so this was super helpful. And I was reminded that yeah, there was a point where I had to shift and Renee had to become important again. And as difficult as that was, and to take the sole focus off of reestablishing a relationship with my kids, it was necessary for my survival. So I thought that was a really important point.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Thank you for touching on that, Renee. Yeah, and I think that's a couple shows and something to acknowledge, you know, like the titrating in and out and when there's space to connect, and when there's no space to connect, and even with our grandchildren, like if we're not taking care of ourselves, there's really nothing to connect with. So I really appreciate you tapping back into that and circling and closing that circle on that question. And what about you, Stephen? Anything left alive or that we didn't discuss?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

The thing is really kind of along the lines of what Renee said is just that, you know, we're we're sitting here talking about our connections with our kids and our grandkids and what that looks like. And are we, will we have one? Do we not have one? But the reality is the thing that we can control is our own well-being and our recovery from the effects of parental alienation, and that is done outside of the relationship with our children or our grandchildren. And for me personally, had I found parental alienation anonymous, and I like I said, it's been four years of learning and growing and having community with people who have gone before me, who have wisdom that I can tap into when I don't know what the right thing is to do or don't even have a clue. It has allowed me to have a much more rich and full life than I would have ever expected in the midst of alienation. And to both your points of talking about taking care of yourselves, that's what recovery is about. It's about taking care of us, about growing, becoming a better person. It's not about changing the situation.

Building A Grandparents Meeting

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Thank you, Stephen. And just for anyone out there that's watching, if you're like listening to some of the stuff and some of the stuff makes sense, and you see us like shifting some of our perspectives and talking about, you know, our own personal well-being. And then you look at the picture of the three of us connecting here, and we're actually sharing emotional, spiritual, and recovery resources with each other. We're meeting a lot of needs here that sometimes we'd go to for our kids. We're actually building community to support it, which gives us the opportunity to actually feel this in our bodies and show up in a different way. And great conversation, great topic. We're hoping to start a specific grandparents focus meeting as a 12-step meeting as part of parental alienation anonymous. We're just waiting for some volunteers. So if you're a regular listener and you're attending meetings and you feel like this is alive, you know, please reach out and let us know and help support starting a meeting. And with that, my beautiful friends, my beautiful grandparents, no no. And Renee, what is your preferred moniker as a grandparent?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Mine would be Nana.

Donate, Email, And Closing

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Nana. Okay. Yeah. And mine would be Opa, which is Dutch. And that's what my grandfather was called. So we got No No, Nana, and Opa bringing you a phenomenal show. And thanks for coming out, both of you, and sharing this conversation. I really appreciate it. Wow, wow, wow, wow. I love my friends. I love you, Renee and Steven. So grateful that we get to trudge us past together. I don't know. I don't know what I would do with our community that uh I had a certain language with and that we're rowing in the same direction. And I want to tell you like, our community is not idyllic. It's human. Sometimes we all get along, sometimes some people don't get along, sometimes some people stay, some people leave. You know, that's been my experience with 12-step. There's been stretches of my life where I'm super involved, and there's been other times where I've taken some time and I feel more resourced, but it's always a foundation that I build my life around. And I keep shoring up that foundation and it keeps changing. And today's a testament to what it looks like when three people are working on themselves. And yeah, and thanks for coming out to play in the sandbox today. Great resources in the show notes. Donate 501c3 nonprofit, like, share. Please email me at family disappeared at gmail.com. Give us subjects, topics, things we started to talk about, didn't finish talking about, new guests, whatever. Some of the new shows that are coming in are all from people saying, Hey, can we talk about this? And uh, I'm exhausted. I'm actually gonna go dance, is my intention. It's a really big part of my recovery. We can talk about that later. So thank you for coming out. In case no one's told yet today, I love you. I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope whatever the weather system looks like, wherever you are, you can feel your own love for yourself. I'm gonna go try do that for myself. After taping, sometimes it's hard to recenter and feeling a little overwhelmed, even in being of service and having these conversations. It's it takes it takes energy and bandwidth. So I love you. Have a beautiful day, and we'll see you around the neighborhood.