Wedding Photography : Mistakes Make Magic
A Business Podcast for Wedding Photographers and Creatives : including interviews of successful entrepreneurs, business advice, and a ton of stories on failures and lessons learned. This podcast is dedicated to embracing imperfection and pushing others to pursue their creative passion!
Wedding Photography : Mistakes Make Magic
From Rock Bottom to Marketing Mastery with Ben Hartley
From Rock Bottom to Marketing Mastery: Ben Hartley’s Photography Success Story
In this episode, Ben Hartley shares how hitting rock bottom as a struggling photographer led him to uncover powerful marketing strategies that not only saved his business—but now empower others to build thriving, freedom-filled creative careers.
🎯 Highlights include:
- What matters more than ever in the age of AI
- Marketing that works instead of chasing clients
- Letting go of fear and showing up with imperfect action
- How one meaningful moment a day matters
- The creative power of batching
- Why consistency beats perfection every time
- Smart content repurposing (because only 3% see it the first time)
- The lasting SEO power of value-driven blog posts
💡 Grab Ben’s free guide: sixfigurephotography.com/30 — 30 creative ways to get photography clients without paid ads.
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Welcome everyone. Today I have Ben Hartley with me on the podcast. Ben Hartley is a photographer. He's an educator, speaker and creative entrepreneur on a mission to help photographers build thriving businesses that fuel both passion and profit. As the founder of the award-winning studio Style Story, ben blends storytelling and strategy to elevate both his art and his students. Through his courses, workshops and podcast, ben delivers a practical, high-energy approach to equip photographers with the tools to master marketing, serve generously and grow a business that they love without burning out. So welcome Ben. Thank you for chatting with me today.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Am I the only one who's nervous? Are you nervous? I feel nervous.
Speaker 1:You're not nervous. I don't believe that, not even for a second. I do.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's helpful for me just to say that I'm nervous, and that helps to get me out of it. You know what I'm saying? Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you know what I always say if you don't say you're nervous, no one else knows. So if you wouldn't have told me that, I wouldn't have believed it.
Speaker 1:You're so you're so outgoing. That's what I was just telling Ben right before we hopped on. We met, met briefly at a conference, and he was just like hi, I'm Ben, I'm here speaking, are you speaking? And we just, you know, chatted really briefly. But yeah, you just strike me as someone who is very outgoing and also would be the perfect person to talk about marketing, because even just knowing that you are nervous doing something that could be considered marketing right Podcasting it's relatable that you do put yourself out all the time, but you still have those feelings of nervousness, and so that's reassuring. So actually, thank you for sharing that you are a little nervous.
Speaker 1:All right. So you have built such a recognizable brand. How did you find yourself leaning into marketing as a core strength? I mean, when I think of you, that's what I think of you as like a marketing master. So how did that that's?
Speaker 2:what I think of you as like a marketing master.
Speaker 1:So how did that? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:Uh, absolute need, uh, desperation. What other words could I say? So like, um, my, uh. Where do I begin the story?
Speaker 2:Okay, so we're going to go back to like circa 2010 and my wife and I, um, were recently married and I got a job. It was awesome. I got a job working as a like at a graphic design studio doing motion graphics animation. This is like really, before I started shooting, weddings are like right around the same time, like that. I began this. I was learning, you know, how to create TV commercials and video, so I actually was a videographer before I was a photographer.
Speaker 2:Anyhow, I say all this because we were living in the small town that we had both attended college at and this was always the small town that we were both involved in ministry in. I don't know if y'all know that I was involved in some ministry back in the day and I guess I still am in a different way, but I had a really good experience and I guess I still am in a different way, but you know, I had a really good experience and my wife had a different experience and if you can relate to this, if you're still, maybe the time that you grew up in or like it was, everybody knows everybody and everyone's in each other's business, and I felt like we couldn't go to the grocery store without just like it, feeling like a weight, and this was a weight. My wife was feeling and this is the way that I was feeling with her and we just we really couldn't stay there anymore. Like that's how I felt. We just we needed to get out.
Speaker 2:And yet I had this job that I loved, that was paying well and in some ways it felt like this golden handcuffs. So I was like I, I like I'm making money and we're doing well, and this is our first year of marriage, and yet, like we need to leave and I don't know how we're going to leave. And so we picked up a camera together. She started photographing alongside me and we started learning what we had taken from the videography side of things bring them into photography and that was all well and good. Like I was always decent at making things look good, I was an art major, so like we got that kind of side of things going, but that didn't mean clients were coming, and so I became obsessed with getting my name out there. I became obsessed with marketing and trial and error and testing and learning, and testing, learning, and I've learned a lot of things that didn't work.
Speaker 2:I learned a few things that did but really just in order for us to lead. I think this is the thing that I would want people to hear. The aim isn't necessarily more money. The aim is the ability to say no, and for us, it was the ability to say no to our location, to an environment that was unhealthy for us, to the feelings that we had in this town, and we wanted to be able to say no to that. It was freedom, and so we were able to build the photography business to the point that I was making more than where I was at and I loved that job. It was great. But, um, and then we, we, we had it out, we left and then it just kept rolling from there.
Speaker 1:And that's when you ended up where you are now.
Speaker 2:No, this was no. That took us to Columbus. Uh, we were at Columbus for, uh, I don't, I don't know, I don't know how many years we were there, and and that's where we continued to build the studio. And then, from there, you know, we've kept bringing on more photographers. So at one point we had like five photographers on our team. That's cool.
Speaker 1:And so yeah it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's, it is cool. It's not recommended but no, eventually we found our way here to Florida and so, but that's a whole other journey. But the obsession of marketing came out of that need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and I think it's kind of good too that you touched on how many times you've moved, because even just moving a few and where you moved like you didn't move entire states I think even just moving a couple of hours sometimes can impact your market, and people need to move for all kinds of reasons, and so I think that's a very relatable thing that people go through in the photography industry and, you're right, it really requires a higher level of marketing to get situated and, you know, get business in that area. So, um, all right, what excites you the most about marketing, especially right now, in 2025, and maybe how have things changed since?
Speaker 2:you started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so excited for all this AI stuff, and I'm so excited for it not because of what it's doing directly, not because of what it's doing directly, but because of what it's doing indirectly. Like content is being like mass produced at scale. Uh, everything's getting automated. I can't tell if I'm talking to a robot or a person anymore. Its quality is just so insane. And what I what terrifies me about that is the thing that I love about it.
Speaker 2:The thing I love about it is this is that the opportunity for like real personal connection, the kind that you can't fake, is being the the the value of it has, is going through the roof was already I mean, it was already incredibly valuable to take personal time to actually like connect with someone, to have a phone call, to make a video, to have like that direct one-to-one communication. That was already valuable. Now it's like TEDx, yeah, and I love that inverse relationship. I think a lot of people are scared of all of the mass content creation. How are we going to keep up with this? And what does this mean? And all the automation, all this stuff and meanwhile I'm just like man. This makes those elevator conversations just that much more meaningful, and so I, I that that excites me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, by the way, we're both real people. Ben's a real person, I'm a real person.
Speaker 2:You laugh, but it sounds like something a robot would say.
Speaker 1:That is insane, you're right. No, I actually for the first time. I mean, I have a very new YouTube channel, like I'm just dabbling in YouTube, and I have someone that you know became a member of our. It's called the wedding photography society, but it's like a group, anyway. He joined and then I emailed him like personally. I was just like, oh, hey, you know, just want to check in, blah, blah, blah. Like I read your questionnaire. And he was like, oh, now that I know I'm talking to a real person, and I was like that's fascinating. And then, for the first time this month, ben, I got an inquiry. Whenever I asked where they heard about me, she said chat, gpt. And I'm like this is new. Like even just in this month, those two things happening like in sync with one another. I'm like whoa, this is crazy.
Speaker 1:So my husband's an architect. We were actually just talking before I hopped on the call with you about AI. I don't even know why it came up, but oh, I know why. I have a friend I'm kind of digressing, but I have a friend who we both studied architecture and she sent me like a picture of her house that she's repainting and I could tell it was an AI generated photo, and I was like you think that? Like, do you think that architecture is in trouble? Cause there are whole industries that, as we know, have been like omitted, and you know, even with photography, I wonder, like, what does this mean? You know? So I appreciate that you touched on AI, but also the exciting things, like, when it comes to marketing, how quickly you can come up with an idea for what to do or how to market yourself, right, I mean, don't you? That's what you're I'm hearing you say is it's like let's use it as a tool and, even more so, emphasize our personal brand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm just excited that it's mere existence makes, uh well it, while it devalues content, it increases the value of personal connection and I, I just get excited about that. I hope it forces more people to get out from behind their screens and uh, start showing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Um, so photographers can dread marketing as a whole. I actually fall in that category, believe it or not. Truly, it's something I struggle with. Has this always come naturally to you, or is it something that you've worked at? And what would you say to someone who struggles with marketing like me? I'm kind of like a head down person. What would you tell me?
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't think I've always excelled at it. I think I've always been like, uh, someone who I, I love people, like I've always been someone who just actually loves people. You know, I meet a lot of people who like they don't like people. No bad if that's. You lose listening. My wife does not like people, it's all good. The fact that I won her over is just an actual godsend.
Speaker 1:Well, at least she liked you. Thank God for that.
Speaker 2:It was a slow wear down is what it was, but for a Labrador like me, it was like that was, that was a, that was great. So, uh, no, um. So I think I've always loved people, and, and, and, so, um, and I love problem solving, and so, um, you put those two things together and, and, um, it's worked really well. Those kinds of strengths, you know.
Speaker 2:I think that I was given those strengths and then I've continued to practice and hone at it, you know, and so for the person who's struggling with it, there's a great Simon Sinek quote that I love, and it says marketing is not the art of finding customers or attracting customers. It is the science of creating value for them. It's not just about, like, creating content, it's about producing value for the other person, and so becoming obsessed with the problem that the person has that's what marketing is is just becoming more obsessed with the problem than you are the solution. I think a lot of photographers are obsessed with the solution being I make beautiful images, but in order to market well, you have to become obsessed with the client's problem, and I love that. I love getting obsessed with what the problem is, and, and there's so much gold when you begin to do that, um, and and actually start to produce uh, produce value for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really great tip. Um, I think if somebody listened to just that nugget, that's gold right there. This idea of getting in the mind of the person you're serving and that they can see it differently. Like we're consumed with the art and how you know we're creating these images, but you're like but what is their need? Like, what do they want? I love that so much. If someone is getting started and they're kind of or restarting, maybe they're feeling stuck, you know, cause that happens too.
Speaker 1:I feel like around year seven I don't know what it is about year seven, but like year seven is a doozy Year seven is not lucky, like year seven is unlucky, um, but I feel like in that year, and even just when you're starting out too, it's like you, you want to get started or restart. So it's like what would you suggest for somebody? And maybe the advice is different for each of them, but it's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're seven, for business is like you're 10 in marriage. I don't know if anybody else is going to get that, but you're 10. You either make it or you're not.
Speaker 1:It's like this is our our 10 year vow renewal. Ben, should we be worried?
Speaker 2:Hey, listen, this is the deciding year for you.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you knew that you're 10, you either make it or you're not.
Speaker 2:I don't know if we got too real there for you, but so what I would say is is and this actually not only this is true for you if you're just starting off, but if you've been in business for a long time, this may be even more true is you have to be willing to slow down in order to go fast, and I think this is really challenging because there are so many things that feel urgent that we constantly are running us. My inbox is constantly running me, social media is constantly running me and it's urgent and urgent and urgent and slowing down in order to go fast, which is just to like to identify and to re-identify, like what am I even doing? What do I? What am I building here? Is this going to serve me? I've seen far too many photographers, myself included, build something that does not serve them, just because they're just building and building and building and building and building, and the thing that they built ends up being a wall around themselves.
Speaker 2:And they're like shit, this is not what I wanted. And sometimes we just slow down and consider, like what is this that I'm building, and who am I building this for, and what do those people really need? And if you've been in business for a while, what I've discovered at least if you're like me is there is a drift that can occur, and this drift occurs for a couple of reasons. Number one is there's an internal drift of complacency that I've seen play out for my own self. I've seen this play out for a number of other photographers too, who are in that you know five to 10 year range. You know five to 10 year range.
Speaker 2:What I mean is you, you figured out something that worked and it worked well, and you built a business and, and, and you start to just like forget just how much work it took. And there's a degree of complacency that can start to like kick in or even like a, like a, I'm not going to go. Like it reminds me of an old dog it doesn't want to chase the ball anymore. Like I don't want to go over there to that, I don't mind keep picking up the ball anymore. And you think you're going to be okay. And then you realize well, shit, I, this is I, I. You may look at your, your calendar and realize like things are slowing down, like um, and, and I think that can happen from a drift internally of that drive.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, I think there's a drift of the client. I think who we were serving when we first started, like they've drifted down river, you know, and we're like talking to someone across, but directly across, where from us. They're not there anymore. Either they're down the river or I'm down there, but like we're not talking the same, like I'm just yelling at a tree now, and, and so it's like getting slowing down and re re looking at like who? Who am I serving? Where are they at now? Is this the same client? How have I changed? How have they changed? How has the market changed? And um, and so I would say that it's.
Speaker 2:It's slowing down in order to go fast. And in order to do that, by the way, you've got to schedule it. You will never wake up one day and be like today's the day, today's the day. I'm going to look at all this. And again, you know it's not going to happen, because instead you're going to open your inbox and there's going to be somebody there with something to say that's going to run your whole day, and so you've got to schedule off the time.
Speaker 2:And my recommendation is every year you should schedule a time to slow down in order to go fast. That would schedule like a long weekend Could be a staycation, Could be like a go get an Airbnb in town and like that is your, just like it's a, like that's your time to like really look at what worked over the last year, what did not work over the last year and, for the things that didn't work, what's wanted and needed from you, from your business, from your life, from your relationships, the requests that need to get made, and um, and to look at those things of of the drift that I was sharing, and so I think that's what we need to do.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's really good advice. It is easy to do that. What you described, I mean you know we all get kind of caught up I love. I love that you talked about scheduling and slowing down and being really intentional and looking at and the thing that worked, like you said, seven years ago, that's not going to work today. It's different clients, different year. I mean even just last year to this year. I feel like my clients are doing different things. I feel like the way that they're even like sharing or not sharing images and how they're showing that, like it is interesting. It is very interesting. So, um, love that advice. Now, as far as let me ask this, like is there a mistake that you've seen and I hate to say like a mistake, because I mean, nothing really is bad, but are there some mistakes that you're seeing photographers making? Um, or just that you've observed in terms of the way that we're presenting ourselves, or like marketing in the industry?
Speaker 2:I just think it's not happening enough. I just don't think people are talking about the things that they need to be talking about. I think that when we have something to say or to offer, we say at one time in an Instagram story with a shitty post, with no call to action, and then we're like this didn't work. Yeah, I mean candidly, I think it's. It's that.
Speaker 2:I think I think that too many photographers think that they're annoying people because we're people pleasers and god forbid we annoy someone. Listen, you, you're gonna annoy people. It's like yeah, I'm annoying like a third of your audience right now by even saying like and I? That was really hard for me to accept because I am such a people pleaser. I was like god, please do you like me? Do you like? Please like me. When, like, I need everybody to like me and when I realized how absolutely insane that was like, that level of expectation that I put on myself, um, like, it was so honestly arrogant that I would actually think that I had the ability to to stand for anything that that would make everybody like me.
Speaker 2:So it became far more accepting to me to be like no, it really makes sense that, like, there's a lot of people who, just, they don't like my voice, they don't like your voice but who knows what it is right Like, or the things that come out of it, or my face, or I don't know your voice, but who knows what it is right like, or the things that come out of it, or my face, or I don't know, but like that actually makes a lot more sense to me, like, yeah, it always gets me as I remember I, I went and I was, um, I got three kids and, uh, we were watching the trailer to the lion king, arguably one of disney's best movies, okay, no, I'm not saying it's the best, but it's like no, it's the best.
Speaker 2:I love the lion king and I'm looking at the trailer on youtube for the lion king and it has like like 40 000 like thumbs downs. No, this isn't the remake, this is like the og. It was like 1997 or so, I don't even know what year it was who doesn't like the lion king?
Speaker 2:this is exactly what I was thinking and I was like you know what if like was? Who doesn't like the Lion King? This is exactly what I was thinking and I was like you know what, if like? If that many people can thumbs down the Lion King, I think that that makes a lot of sense, that a lot of people would thumbs down, you know what You're right.
Speaker 1:You're right about that. Do you feel like you just don't care anymore, though? Or I mean, have you been able to get over that completely, that that fear of like? What if someone doesn't like me, what if they don't like my voice, which, again, I think you should just keep podcasting? Your voice is like the radio voice of the century, um, but do you feel like you? You just kind of don't worry anymore at all.
Speaker 2:No cause, that's not true either, but. But what I find is, when I talk about it, um it helps me. It's kind of like when I said like I'm feeling nervous at the beginning of this.
Speaker 2:It's like I'm not trying to like deny the feeling. I'm kind of, I'm just trying to acknowledge it and to discuss it and to talk about it out loud so I can just like I can have more control over it than it has over me, cause for the longest time, my desire to please people had more control over me. It brought me into an anxiety, it changed the decisions I was making, it impacted my own relationships and so just by saying it, it's not like it goes away.
Speaker 2:It doesn't just disappear, it's just now. I have more control over it than it has over me. I can just it's kind of like it's like a flashlight. It's like hard for things to grow when they're in the light. So if I can just say it, if I can just talk about it, it's like, hey, it's actually it. It it takes down its intensity, it takes down the impact that it has on me.
Speaker 1:So no it doesn't disappear. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just have come to, I think maybe accepted a little bit more as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that is a hard thing. Like I struggle a lot with being controversial. You know, like I feel like I'll tell my husband something about I don't know something that could be perceived as controversial, you know. But then it's like to say that publicly feel so scary because and it doesn't even have to be something political Like it could be something kind of specific to the industry but that maybe I feel like is not going to be the same perspective everyone has and it's like I might say that one-on-one, but I have a hard time saying that publicly. But I sometimes think doing that could help really find your people. You know, like I really love people who are sharing their perspective and it's quite entertaining also to be an observer.
Speaker 2:But, I think so. Jordan Peterson talks about this. It's like saying anything is is dangerous, like just to speak, is it's dangerous, right, because it's now you've opened yourself up to anything. So I don't think it's just being willing to say something controversial and he says this. It's also the willingness to like, have a dialogue and maybe you say something controversial and then you learn, you know what I mean. Like you learn from saying it. Like maybe somebody says like they give a rebuttal to the controversy or whatever.
Speaker 2:And then you're like oh yeah, that's a really good point. Like it's it's not just being willing to say, but it's also being willing to listen, you know, like that's the hill they got to die on, and and I think it's more of a, it's a and it's probably how people peg you, right they? They tell you that that's the hill that you're going to die in.
Speaker 1:I was like no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I'm just, I'm saying something. I get that it's dangerous and I'm willing to. I want to talk, I want to work this out. I want to see, like, how could I improve?
Speaker 1:How can I get better, a more nuanced perspective around this? But for right now, with my limited knowledge, I'm going to say this and then I'm going to hear what else is going on. Yeah, no, no, no. I think that's a great point and, to be honest, like I think a lot of, there's a lot of fear in general around putting yourself out there, creating a personal brand, you know, showing up with consistency online, and so I think this is good to kind of touch on, because it could be something that other people can, you know, sort of connect with. Um, I know you're big on one last one, last thought on this Like, like if.
Speaker 2:If the concern is am I going to annoy people? You will. If the concern is is this cringe? It is, it's like there's and that's like whoever it annoys? Wasn't your client ever anyhow? And so I'm so okay Annoying a bunch of people that were already never going to engage with me in a meaningful way, but then there's going to be a whole other set of the audience that's going to be like that was. That was really dumb and I loved it.
Speaker 1:Like that was just that was perfect oh yeah, Can we just for a minute your ads.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, that's a really good example Like I have. I have a lot of, I mean, I don't know if a lot is the right word, but like weekly, I'll get some hate comment right, cringe, like, just whatever it is, and I'm like, yeah, so it makes sense that you think this is cringy. It was totally not for you, but for everyone that says that I have five that are like this was great. This actually made me laugh, you know.
Speaker 1:No, definitely walking that line. Yeah, like they stand out too, because, oh my gosh, I swipe past like so many ads and things that I see and I'm just like it's vanilla. You know, it's vanilla and I think, as a non vanilla person, which I can probably come off as vanilla, but I'm actually not in a lot of ways, and I think when I see things that stand out to me and I'm sure everybody feels this way like we're all complex individuals and so when you see things, something that stands out as oh Ben really put himself out there or so-and-so is doing something different, like we admire it, you know, and I I think that you can only get there, though, by conquering the what ifs or the. Is somebody going to give me a hate message or whatever? Someone said long time ago? Like you know, you made it. When somebody says something negative or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard it the other way, or a different version. Similar thing, different version. Um is unless you've received a hate letter in your inbox, you're not marketing hard enough. Like, unless you received a negative comment, you just you're not marketing hard enough. That's your indicator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause you're, you know your reach is small and you're playing it safe. So, um, okay, so you're, you're big on, you know storytelling and even just talking to you, it's. It's really interesting to hear you speak. I think you just have a way of saying things. It's really interesting. Um, what is your advice to photographers who want to market themselves through story but don't really know what that means or like where to begin with that type of marketing that you're so good at?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think, um, they don't know where to begin because they haven't taken inventory over the stories in their lives, like even the story that I shared, at the very beginning, around our hometown and wanted to get out like that, that that was a story that I I took note of, like that was a significant thing and I was like if I had never taken note of it it would have just disappeared, like all the infinite other stories that have happened. And your stories don't have to be the time that you almost died and you they resuscitated you three times, or or like what. Like it doesn't have to be these things. Um, I think a lot of times it's this little stories. There's a book that I read. I can't, for the life of me, remember it. It was something story.
Speaker 1:I apologize.
Speaker 2:Can't quite cite it, but I will tell you what I learned from this book and it's a great takeaway. It's a very practical takeaway for the listeners is that every day you have stories that took place that day, and some of them are more impactful than others. But the reason we started to tap into this is because we're just not keeping record of it. And so he has this thing, the author that he calls homework for life, and at the end of his day he just has a spreadsheet. And at the end of his day he just has a spreadsheet. And at the end of his day, as he's laying in bed before he closes his eyes in a spreadsheet. So that way it's not intentionally not a paragraph, he's not writing out the entire story, he just has the date and then like a one to two sentence line about one thing that happened this day that he never wants to forget.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:It could be. You know some of your kids said when they came home from camp my kids are at summer camp, and you know it could be an interaction, it could be who knows?
Speaker 2:It could be anything, it could be a global event that took place this day, but just something that happened that you just never want to forget, and he does this every single day. It's homework for life, every single day, and one of the interesting things about this is you start to create a habit of like, also identifying what are like the the impactful, interesting things that happen. They start to show up then, when you're, when you're coming up with like what do I even say on my stories today, it's like well, actually I could share this thing that happened last week and I have it. It's actually there and a couple other impactful things. Is life starts to slow down. Does anybody feel like life is just going way too?
Speaker 1:fast.
Speaker 2:Life starts to actually slow down when you start to identify core memories from each day, like it's almost like now. There's like a, there's a memory, there's something attached to it and it's almost like a very focused version and yet a very quick version of like a journal. It's just like this. I don't want to forget this right, and it's really cool to look back, by the way, like to look back on like the last you know month of like, oh, I remember when I had I totally forgot that, yeah, so yeah, and there's also something really beautiful about that, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it um it definitely brings like it brings value to so many mundane things. That that happen, you know, um and again it's not, it's not like these big grand things, it can just be like really small things, so I would I would encourage people to start doing that.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really great for multiple reasons. I think that's a really great practice to get into the habit of, because we do forget about the small things that happen. But if you're just looking at like one thing again, you are trying to figure out like, well, what do I share on my stories? You don't maybe need to share like everything the entire day, but that one thing, there's going to be one thing that you can share from that day. I really I think that's really cool. This is so random. But do you have one of those digital aura frames? I do, Okay, Do y'all put like everything on it?
Speaker 2:My wife does, I don't, but yeah, I mean, I'm shocked that, like something will happen. By the way, for those of you who don't know the digital warframes, it's a frame that syncs to your phone, where you can send the pictures from your phone to it and then just scroll through the pictures, right, and I will be shocked, like we will be out bowling and then I'll come home and the pictures it reminds me of a same day slideshow. You know, the same day slideshow. Magic wedding photographers were like how did they, how did they're showing a picture from the ceremony when it just happened? That's how I feel when I come home from bowling and there's a picture of me, like with the strike and and uh, yeah, that happens but it's cool because you know, kind of in the same way now this is from a marketing perspective right, like what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:But that's why I said this is just a random aside, but I think the frame like there's an appreciation for those mundane moments Like we we put like FaceTime screenshots, we put like little drawings of the kids, like all of these things that could be forgotten, but the aura kind of helps us remember it. So in a way, it's almost like you're creating like an aura frame of your life moments through this homework exercise that you can market with and tell stories with and start to practice doing those things on a regular basis. So I think that's that's super fascinating. But how do you recommend that people show up consistently online without burning out? You mentioned earlier scheduling time to create a plan and think about what you're doing. Do you also schedule for the year, for the month? I mean, yeah, in terms of actually executing, that's, I think, a hard thing for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean. So I was trained in oil painting I think I mentioned that very beginning, I guess, as an artist, and I'll never forget like I would do these oil paintings right Stand in front of a canvas. It'd be six feet tall canvas. These are things that take hundreds of hours to paint and so, like, time was always of the essence and I would be holding like a dozen brushes in one hand and each brush would have a different, you know, swatch of paint, a different gradient of gray or something on it, right, and I would stand for the canvas and I, and I would have it in this one hand and my hand would be like positioned in this way where I could, like I just knew exactly where each one was, and I just go and I paint, and paint, and paint, and it would be so frustrating if I ever had to put that hand of brushes down, because the act of putting that those brushes down was a reset. I mean, it was a reset and it's probably like a almost like a half hour reset of just getting everything back organized, yeah, in my hand, in the right place where my knew where it was, getting back into that flow state. I mean, at least a least I mean, and it was just everything. Because people would come in and they'd be like, hey, you know, they come into the painting studio and I felt like I'd have to greet them or whatever. And I just remember I'd hold this fistful of brushes and I just refused to put it down, you know. And so I would go and greet people, or if I was hungry, I'd just keep the brushes in my hand and just be eating food with these brushes, just to maintain that like I'm in this mode.
Speaker 2:And so I say this because batching is, is everything. And so, like you are a creative, and it is just like holding a handful of 20 brushes, when you are in a creative state of generation, you're generating content. If you switch out of that to go and comment, to like to even post the content, to put it in a creative state of generation, you're generating content. If you switch out of that to go and comment, to like to even post the content, to put it in a folder, it's like setting down those brushes.
Speaker 2:And so I would say, like time block, creation, if you can, a creation day, like even for my, for myself, with my podcast, I just have two days a month. They're the first Thursday and Friday of each month. I'm recording all my podcasts, I'm keeping all the brushes in one hand and I'm going to batch them because I'm in creation mode, I'm an interview mode, I'm in conversation mode, right and um. Same thing for, for creating content on social media. Um, I would say, badge it and uh, and literally just the batching, the creation process of recording yeah, I would.
Speaker 1:I would highly encourage that is that the furthest out that you've ever batched? Have you ever batched out longer than like a month? And is that sort of impossible? I mean, does that feel like two? Is there such thing as batching too far out in your opinion?
Speaker 2:well, I think now we're getting into repurposing, because once you start batching content like creation in your opinion. Well, I think now we're getting into repurposing, because once you start batching content like creation I'm sure some people do it I never have, but I have scheduled content for like a year and that is through the process of re reusing content. And side note, photographers nobody saw your shit the first time like this, posted again like, like just post it again.
Speaker 2:Like 3% maybe of your audience saw it the first time, and so to repost a piece of content that you did three months ago not only is fair, it actually could be a good idea, because now a new 3% will see. Um, if somebody did see it before, I don't know if you're like me, but like I see stuff that I've seen before and I'm like man, I'm so glad this came back up in my feed. That's hilarious.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is right, as long as it's valuable. I'm like I'm really glad I saw it again, right.
Speaker 2:And it's, and it is just as valuable the second time, if not more valuable. And, um, and if somebody has already seen it, they just I again three. They're not going to care, which is like 99% of people that just don't get. It's going to keep scrolling anyhow, where they're going to really care and they're going to unfollow you, and that person should have never been following you in the first place, which I'm telling you. That is like 0.1% of people, and that 0.1% should have already been gone place, which I'm telling you, that is like 0.1% of people and that 0.1% should have already been gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they may have a problem, but like, who cares? Yeah, so I say I'm all for reposting of content. Now I aim to choose stuff that is about like three months or but that's. That is a completely what's it called Made up metric that I've determined for myself. There's no magic behind that, like well once it's three months old, then you can repurpose it. I'm like if anything is 90 days old, no one's going to remember any of it you know, no, no.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I would say repost. I think that's totally okay Now maybe not repost everything, but like to sprinkle that in. I think is totally appropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or even like a mix maybe of you know, if you have some older content, maybe you mix it in with some new content and kind of, yeah, remix it. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Repurpose it. I mean, some of the things that you could do is even just changing the call to action can make a big difference. Um, the caption on his like same piece of content, different caption, same piece of content, different call to action. Another thing that I do I do some of my ads, Uh. So I'll make a uh, a single, we'll say a body copy of that, like the main core of the ad.
Speaker 2:Right, Say, it's a 10 second reel or something, so it'd be the same 10 seconds every time, but I'll record a different one to three second intro for it so I'll make like 10 different versions of an intro and then it goes into the thing and um, you like that is probably the one of the number one metrics to the success of any piece of content that I produce. Is that first one to three seconds because, I'll see a, I'll see a click-through rate or just an engagement, a watch time changed dramatically, like like the difference between the one that hits and the one that doesn't. It will be like thousands of views different.
Speaker 1:Um so, that's crazy, do you? Uh, how do you I'm? I'm thinking about your content specifically and and your attention grabbing nature of it Like, yeah, when do you come up with these ideas, ben?
Speaker 2:Well, some of it, some of it is just me being zany Right and so like there's a, there's a degree of like this will be funny. You know what, if I just drop the phone to start and then I pick up the phone like cause I'm thinking of things that would be actual, like it's a pattern interrupt. You know what I mean, just like what's going to interrupt?
Speaker 2:people Right. So like there's certainly that, and then I mean I'm not reinventing the wheel and I think that's really important for for everybody to to know is like you don't have to like your photography is such a great place to be completely creative and inventive and test and learn, you know. Reminds me of there was an advertisement once for a bank and the bank said like um, uh, we bank differently, we bank creatively, or something like that, and I was like that's really a bad. I don't want you to be creative and different with my money.
Speaker 1:I need you to be consistent Don't reinvent the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want you to be a. Don't reinvent the playbook. Here I'm like this was not a, this isn't, this isn't a win. I think that because we're creatives, we think we need to be like innovative and creative in everything we do. And, guys, there's, there's just stuff that works Like, there's just playbooks, there's like structure and so even um, there's accounts that you can follow that have great uh content, ideas and hooks and opening like hey, try this this week. It's a great pattern. Interrupt.
Speaker 2:And like, I'm watching that content, I'm getting ideas, and then I'm taking it and just applying it into my own industry, and so I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. Sometimes I come up with something silly, you know. I'd be like well, what'll happen if I wear a wig? Maybe that'll work, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's, that's really cool. I was curious about that and, um, and I think kind of leaning into your personality, like I appreciate that it kind of sheds a little light onto who you are. You know like you are a little silly and kind of fun, and so it shows that side of you and so there's an authenticity to that marketing that you're doing, that you're taking it and like making it your own. It and like making it your own, Would you say that there are platforms that either are like really working or are not working anymore. So like, for example, I started my business in like 2009 ish and like remember, they used to have like the blog readers, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:did you used?
Speaker 1:to like subscribe to people's blogs, you know, yeah, like an rs like. They don't do that anymore, but right now I know there's another type of like email subscription that people are doing, but is blogging still a thing? Are there certain platforms that you feel work well for photographers to market on like? Should they be on tiktok? Should they be on instagram? Should they be on threads like the platforms? Because they be on Instagram. Should they be on threads Like the platforms Cause, let's be honest, we don't have time to do it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I, this is where I'm like okay, so let's uh, we'll talk about blogs first. Yes, a hundred percent. Blogs are uh, greatly uh important that that sounded like a good sentence greatly importantly important, but not client blogs. I mean. Client blogs, I think are great for client experience and stuff and for, like, internally linking to other pages on your website. But, like, I think, like long tail, keyword value-based blog posts are really valuable to be doing. When I say all of that jargon, creating blog posts that solve the problems that your clients are searching for just before they go to hire you, okay, does that make sense? Like creating content, like for a wedding photographer, creating content around like, uh, if you know your target client is ones that work with wedding planners, they're hiring them before they hire you, and so, if I were to create a list of like my top five favorite wedding planners in my location and made a piece of really valuable content around that.
Speaker 2:I interviewed the planners. I brought them in like that can rank really well. It could perform very well. Not only does it build relationship with those planners, but now you're going to be returning as a uh, you know when people go to search that and um, and it can really help to get your shoe in the door and just begin to be create awareness for, like, really dream clients of yours.
Speaker 2:So, I think I think that's awesome. I hate social media and I think everybody hates social media. They're just unwilling to admit it because to do so would mean they no longer get to complain about it, and I think we like the ability to complain about something.
Speaker 1:You're going to take away our complaining ability. We hop off of social.
Speaker 2:I just think that, like I think we hate feeling like we have to show up places and I think, if we did truly take inventory over our life, that we would see a dramatic net negative on the impact that social media has on your psyche, your mental health, your marriage, your relationships. I just think it would, overall, have a net negative and I think most of us we love the payoff too much, we're too addicted to it. We'll never like that whole bit right. There is not going to fly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people just turned off. They all just turned off the podcast. It's just me and you now.
Speaker 2:Well, so, and this is how you know you're next is when you start to come up with Lingdoll. That's not me, no, no, not me. You know I'm like okay. So I say all that because, like I I think TikTok is is is not a good place to be. Yeah, I'll just be honest. I just don't think that there's a lot of like good that's happening there and so. But I think it's great for your business. You know, I've just decided that there's no amount of money that I could receive that will allow me to compromise on kind of core values that I have.
Speaker 1:And I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:So I think, I think, listen, if you want to be someplace, that's great for your business. You know, tiktok could be one of those places. Instagram is still valuable. Um, reels are still valuable, it is Um. I just uh, I've thrown in the towel on that and I've accepted the consequences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're not on. You're not on Instagram at all right now.
Speaker 2:I have a VA who posts on my behalf.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's awesome, ben. I appreciate that because I mean although albeit controversial, speaking of controversy, it is true I mean it is like there is research around what you're saying and I mean I just I'm like 70 into this book called the anxious generation and you know it was a big wake-up call, even for me, with kids and my own social media usage. I like downloaded my friend talked about on social this app called the Opal app and I downloaded it, paid for it and honestly, it has saved so much wasted time for me because it's not like you can't just ignore it, it like legit, shut you out and it's sad that I have to monitor myself like that. But it's highly addictive, we all know that, and so you kind of have to weigh, like how are you using it? What are you doing? Can you hire a VA? Because I'm not sure from a business perspective, at least for my clientele, that they're on TikTok. Personally, that's just my market, so I don't really utilize TikTok at all unless it's for education are they, though?
Speaker 2:they're 100 on it, they're just. They're probably just on it, though, like for their own, like they're on, they're just scrolling and laughing and enjoying whatever it is that they're enjoying, but maybe they're not buying um, but they're definitely on yeah, I think I mean my grandma I'm not. My grandma, my, my mother-in-law is on it Like, like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:On TikTok.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's wild she's not creating content, but they're. They're consuming content. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, I really personally am not on TikTok like personally, so I guess I assume other people aren't on it. But you're right, like they probably are, I think. Instagram I even used it recently to help me find a photographer to shoot with me, like out of state, and I found it fascinating the ways in which I was kind of searching around Instagram. But I think there are ways around it. You know, like what you're describing, where you have somebody posting for you. I also have somebody that helps me with my social and it just sort of limits and keeps me intentional. Yeah, so I like that. Um, what would you say to the photographer that feels oh, actually wait, one more thing about platforms. I don't want to move on just quite yet. Google reviews.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This was like a very specific and also like kind of personal question, because I actually had a ton of like Google reviews, like I don't know over a hundred five star, and for some reason, google like deleted my entire.
Speaker 2:Google yeah.
Speaker 1:And I cannot get it back then. So I'm like is it worth fighting this fight? And also for the listener? It's like you invest and I can't even see those testimonials. I don't even know what those clients said anymore, I don't have access to them. So I'm like rethinking this testimonial thing moving forward and I'd be curious to know, as a marketing expert, what do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you change locations or did you switch from a service base or a local business to a service base?
Speaker 1:potentially like an address base.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was an address issue yep, google is scary because of the power that they have and also like everything's just ran by robots over there now. So, like I actually lost all mine as well because I moved and when I moved, they suspended my account for suspicious activity. And when I said no, I literally just moved and when I moved, they suspended my account for suspicious activity.
Speaker 2:And when I said no, I literally just moved and I'm updating my address. Locked me out of everything and I can't get any of it, so okay.
Speaker 1:I digress. Okay, so we are in the same camp.
Speaker 2:Like you, never got yours back yeah, and they're very important, and they're very important they're very important and they're very important.
Speaker 1:They're very important and I can't even read them anymore.
Speaker 2:Extremely important Now maybe not, maybe absolutely less important for you. Who's already well-established, who already has a ton of authority, who already has now you should still create a new.
Speaker 1:You know, uh, google my business you know account, I would create a new one, then you would.
Speaker 2:I would. It's still very important, um, but like, again, you have a ton of authority already. You have lead sources coming from other places. But like, yeah, it's uh, if you're gonna get any reviews, send them to google. First and foremost, they are the arbiter of of yeah, well they're the arbiter of chad. You know, it's like you were talking about how you were showed up on GPT. I mean, GPT is just using like SEO.
Speaker 2:Interesting Like in order to return its results. So the reason that you got returned on GPT is because you were returned on for for search as it was.
Speaker 1:you just was searching there, and so does that make sense, like it's that absolutely makes sense and one of the things that I haven't done yet that I plan to do. It's like, as a note, my inbox is to literally go in chat and ask why I was suggested and like how you can be suggested. Feels very meta to do this inside of the platform, but like it'll tell you, you know what I mean. So like to ask what have you ever done it? Have you ever asked?
Speaker 2:I haven't, but it's gonna. I haven't asked Chad, but I've done a ton of research into this. Now I'm no like. Listen, I know the 20% that's going to get you 80% of the results.
Speaker 2:I'm not like the guy who's like completely obsessed. It was like and if you do this and you, you know, I don't know, so, uh, I mean it's it's taking. Nobody knows the exact indicators for like why a website would rank. Like they always release, like here's the new notes for kind of our like what we're taking into consideration, but there isn't like this is going to be 30% of the you know whatever, but like we know a few things and it's like Chai GPT is dumb. It only knows what you give it and what we've given. It is how google ranks things. It's so it's not like it's. It's not like it's reinventing something. It's just using the same metrics you know, and so, whatever keywords you put into chai gbt, like, that's what it's going to be returning for you more or less.
Speaker 2:I mean like within. You know there's there's some sway there but, like you know, your backlinks are still.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest indicators of of like the authority that your site has is what other websites are linking back to it and so like you can have all of your on-site stuff you know your, your h tags and your meta description and meta titles and all that stuff can be perfect. But if no one is like giving you a vote of confidence by linking back to you, it's like it's not like you're going to suddenly rank so your site is already killing it Cause you're you've got a ton of backlinks. It's like you've been around for a long time, Like there's all these indicators that Google has and chat, GPT has tapped into those.
Speaker 1:So what Ben is saying is make sure you have other people linking back to you in your website. That's huge.
Speaker 2:The biggest things you can be doing, assuming I mean make sure your onsite stuff is set up properly.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:One of the easiest things to do is just like get your own. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, literally just like, just do a your own, and if you don't know what I'm talking about. Literally just like just do a quick search. What has been mean by onsite SEO and how can I make sure my homepage is correct? It's like this is where you just pull levers right. It's like here, go, do this thing. It's very like analytical. I should only have one H tag and it should be my niche and location.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I go make that change. Like done it, um, all right. I think probably one of the biggest complaints or concerns maybe that photographers have is you know why. Why am I not getting enough inquiries? Why am I getting ghosted? I'm not getting enough bookings? Um, what would you say to the photographer that is feeling that way right now in their business?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that ice melts at exactly 32 degrees Fahrenheit. And you may be doing a lot of things and you may be, we'll say, warming up the room, but it's still only 30 degrees. It's not going to melt until it's 32. Things happen slowly and then all at once, and so I think a lot of people are like you've been working for a while and you've been chugging away and you haven't seen the ice start to melt, you haven't seen that that take off and there is kind of like this critical mass that that that can occur. And so I would stay, I would say keep showing up. I would say be kind to yourself in this process. Um, I would say, uh, put your blinders on, meaning like, don't be looking at.
Speaker 2:Alice and all the clients. Alice has got you know like, uh, just focus on you and and where you're at, and it's going to keep you showing up a lot more.
Speaker 1:So, um, that's what I would say. I like that. Would you say that that could parlay into mindset, like, is that kind of a mindset thing too? Or would you say that you have some sort of mindset advice for someone?
Speaker 2:Well, I think a lot of us have we have it backwards.
Speaker 2:We have high expectations and we have low standards, and I think it's mostly because we lie to ourselves often and we disappoint ourselves. And so why would we have my standards? Let me explain. Yeah, I need more of this. What I mean is like if you had an employee who constantly said I'll be there at 10, and then they showed up at 1130 each day, would you give that employee a raise? Would you give them more responsibility? Would you give them more money?
Speaker 2:No, and yet here we are saying like okay, tomorrow I'm going to get up at nine and I'm going to do that blog post and and I know it's just you, but that that lie to yourself it impacts the respect that you even have internally and it also starts to increase the things that you tolerate. It's like you're tolerating this behavior within your own psyche. You start to tolerate from others, you know. And so I think that if we started to treat our business as if we were actually working for somebody else, and if we didn't show up in the way that we said we were, if we didn't do the commitments that we expressed, we would that we would get fired, and some of you have already gotten fired and you just don't realize it, because it's your own job and you're at home still and you think you still have a job and you don't. No one's told you you're fired. You fired yourself, like does that make sense? What I'm trying to say here?
Speaker 1:It actually does.
Speaker 2:When I said keep your, I think a lot of people have their their expectations high and their standards low. It's like our expectation is like all right, I'm gonna do a, I'm gonna start posting. You know, I'm gonna get my. Here we go. I'm gonna do the SEO stuff that Ben talked about. I'm gonna start ranking for SEO so I can show up on, you know, chetgpt or whatever.
Speaker 2:And so we say we're gonna go and we do this stuff. Our standards, our expectation is that we're going to make the changes to our homepage and we're going to get to page one next week. Our expectations are extremely high, but our standards are low, meaning we bail, like this stuff doesn't happen fast People love the word fast Doesn't happen fast, doesn't happen as quickly as Alice. Yeah, yeah, it worked for Alice, you know. And then we bail, we go to the next shiny thing or we go and we make this like a statement this, this internal uh decree that like seo doesn't work the amount of times that we have said these things about like facebook ads don't work, seo doesn't work, uh, word of mouth marketing doesn't work. It's like, well, it didn't work for you the way that you did it, in the amount of time that you gave it to work. And instead, I would encourage you to start the discipline of keeping your expectations low and your standards high. This means that you keep showing up. It's like you extend the horizon of whatever it is that you're aiming for, knowing that doing the right thing is always the right thing. And if I keep showing up and I keep putting in everything that I got, that like you're going to be moving in the direction that you need to be moving and so like.
Speaker 2:Even for me, you know, I did an Instagram, instagram, facebook live back when that was a popular thing. Every single day I did a live video and I did it for a couple of years. And then I did the same thing with Instagram reels. I did an Instagram reel every single day for like two years. My expectations were extremely low and I got to tell you it was low. I mean, I had, like it was crickets, it was like two people watching two people watching two people watching one person watching. You know, and and but my, my standard for myself was it was a commitment to myself Wow, like I am, I'm, I'm on this path. I know that I suck, I'm willing to look a fool so that tomorrow I will be a little bit better and the next day I'll be a little bit better, and so I think that a lot of us, we have really high expectations and we've got low standards and we need uh, I think we need to adjust. Um, I think we need to adjust.
Speaker 1:That's incredible and and kudos to you for having that level of commitment. Um, that's a lot harder to achieve than we probably care to admit to ourselves, Like I. Consistency.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, and you've built a massive following which I'd love for you to share about that community. I want to end on that because I really those last two questions, I think, really hit home even for me, and so I want you to share about your community, where photographers can find you, where they can go to dig deeper. I know you have some free resources, so can you talk a little bit about those things, um yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:I would just say uh, if you enjoy, my voice doesn't annoy you.
Speaker 2:You can listen to, uh, our podcast, catherine, looking forward to having you on. Um, so just a six figure photography podcast S I X photography, itunes, spotify. So just I would say, go listen to that. That'd be awesome. I'd love to, I'd love to have you tune in.
Speaker 2:And then one of the things that gets really practical, cause I think some of the stuff I'm sharing is a little I mean, it's good, it's needed, and sometimes it's a little pie in the sky, a little bit like okay, so what do I do? If you're looking for what to do, I put together 30 ways that you can get clients that aren't using paid ads. It's like 30 fresh, creative, new ways that you could be implementing to get new leads and I would encourage you to go check that out. I split it up over three days because there's a lot of content and it's just pure gold. And listen, if only like, five of them are like that was awesome. That's. My aim is like give you five things that you're like yes, I know what to do now for the month of July or whatever. So you can get that at six. S I X figure photography, not photographer. Six figure photographycom. Forward slash 30, three zero. The number 30,. Three zeros, 30 ways to get clients.
Speaker 1:Love it. Thank you so much. You, I feel like the past hour for me has gone by so fast. You're very um good with the way you explain things. It's easy to listen to and digest. Way you explain things, it's easy to listen to and digest. I feel like, personally, I've been impacted by what you've said because of the way you explain it and the truth behind it, and so I just wanted to say that, personally, I feel like I've been able to get some good takeaways, um, just from listening to explain it in a way that feels digestible, which goes back to your ability to tell stories. So, um, great job, and thank you for your time. I know that you are very busy and you know you've got a lot going on. So, yeah, this was so much fun. This was so much fun, ben, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, catherine. I appreciate you so much. You're a great interviewer, great, great Just it was just fun to have a conversation with you, so thank you.