TalkingHeadz is an ongoing interview podcast that features the movers and shakers of enterprise communications - we have great guests too. In this audio-only episode Dave and Evan discuss the importance of video with Michael Litt.
Michael Litt is CEO and co-founder of Vidyard, a global video creation, hosting and analytics platform for businesses.
TalkingHeadz is an ongoing interview podcast that features the movers and shakers of enterprise communications - we have great guests too. In this audio-only episode Dave and Evan discuss the importance of video with Michael Litt.
Michael Litt is CEO and co-founder of Vidyard, a global video creation, hosting and analytics platform for businesses.
And on today's talking catch we have Michael Litt CEO and co founder of Vinyard.
Dave Michels:Happy New Year, Evan.
Evan Kirstel:Yeah. Happy New Year. I'm a little less enthusiastic than you are. But yeah, it's okay. New Year.
Dave Michels:That's usually the only year the enthusiastic one.
Evan Kirstel:Yeah, we're doing a little of role reversal today. But yeah, looking pretty pessimistic with all of the COVID news and lockdowns around the world. And what do you think? What are you? What are you excited about when it comes to our industry events? Maybe?
Dave Michels:Well, you know, I just, we just our last event of 2021 Was that Avaya engage. And that was interesting. What did you think of their COVID protocols there?
Evan Kirstel:You know, I thought it was pretty good. I felt pretty safe. I would say we have to add a layer of protection with on site PCR testing for everyone. Now, I think it's insufficient, just to have COVID Passport requirement. What about you?
Dave Michels:I think it was a little bit of theater, you know, no thought to have I think they were trying to do their thing. But the idea of going up every day and getting a new wristband and asking, checking a box, whether you have fever or not seemed a little silly to me, but it's a complex problem. You know, events are, are definitely a challenge, but I'm looking forward to them returning
Evan Kirstel:Well, you had a blog post on talking points, about events, and just about halfway through. So what what should our listeners take away from your
Dave Michels:post is primarily about the Avaya event. And I talked about the Avaya stuff, but But I think what we're talking about here really is about events in general. I've done three events in the last quarter of the year, basically, three in person events that were all hybrid events. And I'm realizing that the purpose of these events is much more around interactive conversations than your typical PowerPoint presentation, the typical PowerPoint presentation, we've nailed we can do that remotely, no problem, no reason to get on a plane, no reason to go to an event to sit in a room and watch someone present slides. And so the real purpose of going to these events is you know, quite honestly, the small group conversations, the interactions, the meals, the hallway conversations, and I think that we're going to see in 2022 events, much more emphasize the interaction, and downplay the presentations. What do you think?
Evan Kirstel:Well, I think oh microns are gonna put a kibosh on all of this fun and engaging indoor conversations. I mean, estimates we're going to be at a million cases per day in the US in the next few weeks, given that Omicron spreads basically doubles. every two days. It's a whole different ballgame. And yeah, I think we're gonna go back to 2020 for a while, until we get past Omicron. But until then,
Dave Michels:well, if we're gonna be doing that we should we should be using some video technologies to interact, you know, why don't we get to our interview and find out about this video card thing.
god:Talking Heads is a semi monthly podcast with interviews of the top movers and shakers and enterprise communications and collaboration. Your hosts are Dave Michaels and Evan Kersal, both of which offer extraordinary services including research, analysis and social media marketing. You can find them on Twitter, LinkedIn, or at talking points.com. That's points with a Z and Devin Kirsten calm. That's KR STL.
Evan Kirstel:And it's Evan here. Today's first talking heads podcast of 2022 is with Michael lik the founder and CEO of Vinyard. Hello, Michael.
Michael Litt:Oh, I am very happy to be here.
Dave Michels:It's really nice that we can finally have a conversation around video in our audio only podcast.
Evan Kirstel:Yeah, well, we're gonna dive into all of that audio versus video versus text. So Michael, for the uninformed, maybe introduce yourself and who is Vinyard?
Michael Litt:Yes, my name is Michael lifts. I am the co founder and CEO of a company called vid yard. And we are a video platform for business. And so we kind of separate our offerings into two categories. One is we are a professional video hosting platform. And so marketing teams sales teams, service and support teams, upload videos to our service, embed them on their website, we track who is viewing those videos, and report that data into their system of record so into their CRM into their service. was offering so they can see who's watching those videos and for how long. We also have a video communication product, it functions as a Chrome extension. It's also an Edge browser extension. It integrates with Gmail and Outlook SalesLoft, outreach, mix magazine, you name it, all the sales acceleration tools. And what that product does is allow a sales rep to easily record a video using their webcam, or a screen recording, and send that to a prospect or a user and then get a notification when they watch that video. It's very useful in the context of today's kind of hybrid world, when it adds a kind of level of interaction to the sales and communication process, which is asynchronous. Video,
Dave Michels:does every calm professional like Evan and myself know, video is a real time technology meant to be interactive, things like email are not real time they are a synchronous, not meant to be interactive. How can you combine or converge these worlds?
Michael Litt:Yeah, for sure. So imagine a video that is embedded in an email, for instance, or is delivered to you via
Dave Michels:text message? It's called YouTube.
Michael Litt:Yeah, absolutely. YouTube is an asynchronous video experience, unless, of course, you're watching live experiences on YouTube. And that's exactly what we provide. So it's a Chrome extension, essentially, click the link in your browser or in your email composer. And you can easily record a video, what we also do is give sales reps, access to the library of content that their company has produced. So let's say the customer case study, it's very effective with financial services. As an industry, that video can be available to the sales rep in their email workflow so that they can easily send it to a prospect. Another great example is you're sending a sales order, instead of just sending a PDF and having the prospect scroll through that PDF on their own time. Why not send them a video of you walking through it and talking about the benefits and the features? And essentially giving you another opportunity to sell the product and enhance that prospects experience via video?
Evan Kirstel:So isn't that what email was supposed to be all about? I mean, the ultimate asynchronous tool that what is video add to my inbox in terms of all those messages I get by email and text.
Michael Litt:Yeah, so the problem with email, and I think you both agree with this. Email is a beautiful tool, it's
Dave Michels:email is beautiful. And that wraps up this episode of talking.
Michael Litt:Yes, email is beautiful. But the problem is, it's become over utilized. Right, your inbox is full of non personalized email messages from brands that are trying to sell you stuff. The only aspect of email that's personalized is your first name, maybe the company you work at has nothing to do with you. And so easy to send sales reps are just sending out cadence based emails, marketers are spinning up market automation emails, all that stuff is just noise, and we get too much of it, right. So imagine if you open an email, and there's someone's face, in a recorded video waving at the screen, has your name written on a whiteboard, or is browsing your LinkedIn profile, or is sitting on your website in the background of this video, you know that that is something that is personalized and created just for you. So it really enriches the experience. And if you think about what's happened in the world, with the next generation of buyers and sellers, let's call them Gen Z. Their entire experience is built around asynchronous video, the way they interact with their friends, the way they interact with consumer brands. And these buyers of sneakers are also buying software in their professional lives as they become a part of the professional workplace. So video has to be part of that context, because it's so natural for them. Last point I'll make on this is we hire a bunch of VR is about, we're about 350 people today, we hire a ton of junior sales reps. When they join the company, we have to teach them how to write professional email, because they're more comfortable recording and sending video messages than they are writing emails because they've never done it before in their lives.
Evan Kirstel:Wow, that's fascinating. And actually, you have some done some research conducted by a cognitive neuroscientist that looked at the case for video over email messaging, maybe you could break that research down. It was done earlier this year. I thought it was quite interesting. The
Michael Litt:high level or the TLDR too long didn't read on that research is that our brains, and I think it's just by nature of what I referenced in this context of email overload, create a negative connotation with the email experience. When you open an email, it's just a wall of text. There's a lot of effort there. When you open an email and there's a play button. There is now this opportunity for a passive experience to have an asynchronous interaction with a real human. Not a wall of text, not an emotionless blob And so what we found in this process is that when video was inserted into the email process, neurons in your brain that stimulate pleasure, endorphins actually fired. And so what we see on a conversion rate perspective is sales reps be much more effective when they're using video in their communications, then when they're using just email. And I'm not saying video in this context is replacement for email. But it's another tool in your tool case, to build a relationship, which is increasingly important. As we go through this world of travel restrictions and hybridization and travel and entertainment costs being cut. We need to find ways of really interacting in this kind of new hybrid and remote distributed world.
Evan Kirstel:That's interesting. I also that research show that video may improve long term memory, which is good for date, Michaels, as he, you know, gets into his 80s here, what's behind that? Because I would have kind of that would have been counterintuitive to me, you know, who watches so many videos and kind of forgets them instantaneously? But what do you think? Yeah, I
Michael Litt:think it's the way we learn. You know, some people learn very easily from opening a textbook and reading that textbook and visualizing everything they're seeing. And that would be, you know, related to the email experience. But if you're a visual learner like me, you will remember those visual cues. And so imagine two sales reps of competing companies trying to sell you something, or trying to support you on something, and one of them describes to you what they're offering via a wall of text, and one of them shows it to you via video, it's likely you're going to recall the experience that you were shown over the experience that you had to learn and decipher yourself and visualize yourself. I mean, that's why teachers exist. That's why classrooms exists. That's why those experiences exist. And what we're able to do with recorded video, is replicate that format, in the sales process.
Dave Michels:So help me understand what is the difference between your product and say, you know, just using YouTube, why don't I just record it on YouTube? I don't have to publish it publicly. They have that option, where you just in the URL? Why would I use your product over YouTube?
Michael Litt:Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So to create a video on YouTube, you know what, actually, I can answer this question more effectively with why we built the product. So we have a BDR team that does outreach, tries to talk to potential customers on a regular basis, they're always looking for new and creative ways of breaking through the noise. One of our videos three years ago, started opening up quick time, recording a video, using that tool, uploading it to our video hosting platform, which would be akin to YouTube. And then grabbing a image of that video, embedding that image in the email, and then hyperlinking that image to where that video was hosted on YouTube. And then sent that to a prospect. And then went on our analytics dashboard, and waited for that view counter to go from zero to one, and then followed up with that prospect, that process takes somewhere in the range of 45 minutes to an hour. Right. Now let's insert YouTube into that process, right. I record myself via my webcam using YouTube's creation tools. Now I've got a video, I've got to wait for it to upload, I've got to list it privately. Then I have to grab an image embedded in the email and hyperlink that image to the page on YouTube. Now as a prospect, when I get to youtube.com, and I watch this video, at the end of it, YouTube is going to show me a whole bunch of algorithmically related videos, which are probably your competitors videos. And now all of a sudden, I'm on this YouTube adventure. I'm watching dogs riding skateboards. So what our solution does is take that process and confine it in your workflow. So you're in Gmail, you click the Vinyard button, you record your video, it automatically embeds the thumbnail link to that page. When the prospect clicks it, it's customized for your website for your brand. So they can click through it. They're not on YouTube, they're not in this rabbit hole. And then of course, we track if they watch that video, how much of it they watch. So the sales rep or you in this case gets to see that they've watched that video. And that data gets appended to the contact record in the CRM. So you now know did they watch the video? How much do they watch the watch the customer testimony on our website, you get a view of everything your customers done, every video they've experienced in YouTube can ever really provide that level of visibility.
Dave Michels:Well, that sounds pretty good except for that whole thing about thumbnails. I don't want a video of Evans thumbnail.
Evan Kirstel:But, you know, Michael, I would have thought this would have been quite a niche service, but I'm looking at your numbers on your website. videocard.com. Like you said, 350 employees millions of People actually creating videos, I guess 100,000 plus videos a month. Is that right? I mean, this is catching on.
Michael Litt:Yeah, we have 15 million monthly active users. Wow.
Evan Kirstel:And what do you think the pandemic has done? For you? I mean, obviously, this is the perfect pandemic solution for b2b sales and marketing. I imagine that's been quite a, you know, an uplift.
Michael Litt:Yeah, it's been a very unique experience, to say the least, I think the fundamental transformation that has happened in the pandemic is people obviously, being comfortable working from home. And employers, for the most part are being more flexible with that circumstance. But I think a more meaningful impact at the enterprise level is that CFOs around the world, we're looking at their travel and entertainment budgets, as related to their sales and customer success process. And realizing that they can be productive without spending so much money. So really great example, one of our customers in the logistics insurance space, they were spending $10 million a year, sending their team all over the world, for customer interactions pandemic hit, all of a sudden, they couldn't spend that money. And so what they did was they built a suite of sales technologies, they enrich their CRM experience, they bought an email Cadency tool for their sales reps, they brought in video card, and they were actually able to boost the engagement, the click through rate and the conversion rate with their customers for 5% of that end budget. And so I think on a long lasting perspective, the pandemic has really transformed the way organizations think about selling, and think about travel as part of that enterprise sale. And I think buyers have really kind of rethought the way they buy, right, that's product wins, that sales experience wins, that takes the least amount of time. And, you know, walking the halls and you know, steak dinners, and golf games, and all that stuff, you know, I think fundamentally is no longer a part of sales process based on the desires of both buyers and sellers. And so as you can imagine, as this has happened, you know, our product has become a fundamental part of that process. And that's driven our integration strategy. And because it's free, there was literally no friction for people to get started. And so it's certainly been a big boon. At the beginning of the pandemic, we were 150. Now we're 350 heads, and the growth rate of users has been exponential. So you describe
Dave Michels:this pretty heavily around external business reaching out to its customer, whether it be a consumer or another business. But what about other use cases? Could I make a video promoting this episode of talking heads? And just posted on Twitter or Facebook? Does that work? And then what about like internal communications? Like, Hey, everybody, check out my new haircut or something,
Michael Litt:you know? Yeah, for sure. One of the things I think the pandemic really kind of sent home was that video does not need to be a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. video does not need to be Super Bowl quality content. It can be recorded, it can be natural, it can be kind of just like that, right? It can be a talking head, no pun intended.
Dave Michels:We consider our podcasts very formal.
Michael Litt:So yeah, so you can easily record a video, publish it to Twitter, publish it to anywhere, right is literally a video creation tool, and where that video is consumed, and we've got customers that send it via iMessage is on iOS devices or WhatsApp messages to their customers, and you're off, and you could embed it, you know, in a Twitter, post in Facebook, etc, it doesn't really matter to us, what we want to do is just make it as easy as possible, as in one click to create one click to publish. With respect to internal communications. This is probably one of the, you know, most breakthrough use cases for recently is that companies are starting to realize that they have too many meetings, and they require people to be present for too many things. all hands meetings, do those actually need to happen synchronously, or can that be full of pre recorded content? And the reason that's important, you know, especially with lockdowns and stuff like that looming, is you know, parents are home with their kids, their schedules are being disrupted. Asking people to be synchronously available is really difficult. So what we've started to do as an organization, obviously, we've seen a lot of companies do this as well, is if you're having a meeting, you need to have all the prep material sent as a pre recorded video a day in advance of that meeting. And then what we do is we use Google Docs, people can fill in questions that they have about that content. When you do get together instead of it being an hour, hour and a half, two hour long meeting. It's just a 30 minute session, talking about the video and talking about the questions. The cool thing about that is it gives people Who aren't naturally extroverts the ability to digest the content and think about it, and come up with ideas, versus just have the, you know, extroverted individual, with the biggest ideas talk in all those meetings. And so what we're seeing, and what a lot of our customers are seeing is that they're getting better as a business because they're getting more voices to the table, they're getting better experiences. Another great use case is I do a weekly address to my team. Using a pre recorded video, every one of my ELT members produces a slide walkthrough the slides 10 minute video, I send it to the whole company, when people can watch it at, you know, one and a half x speed, I talk a little bit slow at some of the feedback I get. So they can fast forward me I can sound like a chipmunk, they can consume it quickly. And on the flip side, I get a ton of value out of that because I get to see who in the company is engaging with that content. And I also get to see if I have declining viewership over time, which means I got to freshen up my approach. So there's a lot of benefits from a communications perspective that we're seeing. And that's where a lot of our future technology investments exist.
Dave Michels:This is a pretty good idea. And you've somehow turned it into a business. How do you charge for this?
Michael Litt:Yeah, so baseline product is free. You know what the free version has, there's no limits on the number of videos you can create and how many videos you can share. However, when you do send it is on a video card, what we call a branded sharing page. So there's a video card header and footer, which ultimately drives traffic and new users to our website, by all components. If you want to pay for an upgraded package, you can rebrand that experience for your company. And so when that video gets sent, people can navigate through your website instead of ours. What that also provides is enriched analytics and data. And so you get to see who's watching those videos for how long and appending that data to your CRM. So on an account basis, you can see which videos were consumed. Your marketing team can pull data to say these videos are effective, that seller is effective with video etc. We also then allow a call to actions at the end of the video. So a lot of sellers will do is they'll embed a Calendly link. So after the viewer consumes the video, they can click a link and schedule time in that person's calendar. You can also drive them to another area of the website, they could drive them to a form you can watch show them another video a customer testimonial. So we start to layer in some interactive elements. And then there's a series of other creative tools. But again, our model is designed so that you can get 95% of the value of the product for free. And it's when you start to hit, you know the ceiling on that experience. And you want an enriched experience that you ultimately can pay us either as a single user or as an account,
Dave Michels:if you pay for the extra 5% of features that you describe. Is that a per user per month model? Or is it a per video model? Or how do you charge for that?
Michael Litt:per user per month? Yeah, we, you know, we're very cognizant that we do not want to punish our users for using the product and creating videos. And so it's totally feature based, and it's totally based on a per user per month model. $20 a month to start. But, yeah, yes, $20 $20 a month. And you know, we've got enterprise accounts, I think our largest has 20,000 users registered with the product and what we're seeing a lot of breakthrough use cases in financial services, which is very interesting.
Evan Kirstel:So you've been at this mission with video art over 10 years. Tell us what your journey has been, like from tiny, tiny startup to where you are now. 350 employees and lots of Big Blue Chip customers and quite a lot of success.
Michael Litt:Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think I wake up every morning and reflect on that. On one hand, you know, looking back, it's amazing what we've been able to accomplish, and we being the entire team. I am just at storytelling figurehead, in the grand scheme of things. You know, we never built this company to be a big business with lots of people. We built it to solve the problem of helping companies communicate with video. That was our mission, our vision, I grew up with VHS, camcorder on my shoulder, every single family events, school project, etc, had a video to go with it. So videos always been a massive passion of mine. And as a student at the University of Waterloo, I realized there was an opportunity to help businesses use it more effectively. And that's really been the journey we've been on. You know, I'd love to say it was a straight line to 350 employees and all these blue chip customers, as you say, but, of course, in retrospect, growth is a step function. And there's been a lot of learning because my co founder and I built this company out of our dorm room, you know, really hot summer months, with no air conditioning into what it is today. And we've learned a lot. We've built a great team, but in a lot of ways it feels like we're just getting started. And you know, as you can imagine this kind of generation have buyers and sellers and professionals where video is a native experience to them are really just starting to get into these decision making rules and organizations. And so it feels like, you know, the full spectrum of our potential and growth is still ahead of us, which is incredibly exciting.
Dave Michels:What college was a dorm room at
Michael Litt:University of Waterloo in Waterloo, Ontario. So we're both engineering, undergrads.
Evan Kirstel:Well, Ontario, you know, in its day, it was one of the world's biggest tech centers, I think about all my trips to Nortel back in its heyday. What's Ontario like now for tech startups and tech innovation? What's going on up there in Canada? Is
Dave Michels:that the Waterloo that the other song is named after?
Michael Litt:Yeah, so Waterloo in Ontario specifically? No, I think it's gone through a lot of machinations as it relates to technology development. So you mentioned the Nortel days corral, obviously was headquartered in Ottawa. And then came the wave in Waterloo, which, you know, Blackberry was a huge part of one of our board members was the CFO there. You keyboard, it's all about that keyboard, sort of my brother, you know, the only place you see I see blackberries very often is in Waterloo, they still have smartphones, and they still have some very, very diehard fans. Sybase obviously had headquarters, they're open text, a massive, massive software organization. What happened was those big companies kind of sucked up the talent ecosystem, because they had, you know, 10s of 1000s of employees each, as BlackBerry kind of started to run the other direction, to, you know, make it light. All that talent started to bleed out of the ecosystem and created a slew of new startups. And those startups got mixed with new talent coming in the University of Waterloo, really great CS and engineering talent. And so now there's this huge volume of kind of next generation companies in financial services, software, hardware, tech, etc. This has happened globally. But I believe Waterloo is really kind of the center of where a lot of this is happening in Canada in general. So it's been amazing to build a company there. It's been amazing to see other companies built there. We went to Y Combinator to start our business and came back to Waterloo, we were the first to do that. There's been, you know, somewhere near 100 startups to do that since. And they've all grown and all have, you know, huge talent pools. And of course, now with hybrid work, and these kind of adaptive methodologies to building teams, you know, we're all able to hire on a global basis, which expands our opportunities. So I think there's gonna be some massive companies coming out of the region, selfishly, I've invested in a number of them as a as an angel. And yeah, it's very exciting.
Dave Michels:So we're all your customers from Waterloo, where are your customers at?
Michael Litt:Yeah, so our customers are, right now, 85% are North America, most of those are south of the border. So only about 5% of our customer base is Canada, the delta would be EMEA and APAC. We've got just under 12,000 customers today. So it's, you know, pretty globally spread out. At this point. Interestingly enough, you know, you think some of your first customers would be in Waterloo, because that's where we were. But because we got our start in Silicon Valley. And because Silicon Valley is what it is, a lot of our very first customers were in that region, and we're tech companies. Today, about 40% of our customer base are tech businesses, but the rest are across financial services. EPG you know, consumer retail, b2b to fee packaged goods, etc. And I think that just speaks to the versatility of video that we can sell to so many different industries.
Dave Michels:If you really want to expand in Europe, you're gonna have to change the name of the company the vid meter
Evan Kirstel:that was funny cat was quite Yes. Quite a champion of joke there. But yeah.
Dave Michels:Well, Canada, I apologize for the
Michael Litt:metrics. Canada's on the metric system too. But of course,
Dave Michels:everybody customers in Canada either so.
Michael Litt:Exactly. Well, it's funny growing up, my parents used pounds feet inches, kilometers meters interchangeably. It's one of the most confusing systems probably
Dave Michels:in the world. Well, seriously, what are you trying to convey with the name of the company?
Michael Litt:Yeah, three questions. So you know, early on naming a company is is a difficult process. It's embarrassing to tell you how many iterations we went through but we wanted to
Dave Michels:keep it simple you feel good, but he just didn't just company of interest are still so to be really obvious thing to
Michael Litt:Yeah, for sure. We wanted something to do with it. And something to do with a unit of measurement because that analytics and data backbone is so integral what we do. So yard was it kind of sounded great to us the URL was available, and we just went for it and didn't look back.
Evan Kirstel:Speaking of not looking back, what are your big goals for were 2022, maybe holograms is that's what's next.
Dave Michels:He says, thinking about looking back, what are your goals looking forward? But go ahead and answer the question, I will just ignore it.
Michael Litt:Yeah, I think it's great question. You know, there's still so much room for innovation in the space. You know, we like to think about other use cases inside of the organization, we see a number of companies using us in the Customer Success, use case. So supporting existing customers. Same thing goes for support and services. But of course, there's different aspects to the workflow and the integrations we offer to capture that, you know, we also think a lot about the sales process. And, you know, current products, like zoom, for instance, are really built for synchronous communication, but aren't purpose built for running an effective sales meeting and effective education for our customer. And so we're starting to think about that area as well. And the end of the day, you know, the kind of overarching theme, which we're all experiencing now is this concept of our lives being more and more online, and more and more digital. And if you think about that, that progression of the last 10 years, you know, from having for the first time, email in our pocket, to, you know, mobile interfaces to being always on, always connected. And now every single day, a lot of people rolling out of bed, opening a laptop and interacting in this digital environment. There's so many technologies to build there where video is at the center of it, I almost want to use the term Metaverse, which is obviously being very popular in the realm of web three, and what Facebook is working on. But I think there's a reality to the situation that there's gonna be a lot of interesting technologies built that help people interact more productively, and on a more personal basis, as we all kind of get entrenched in this new work from home life. And we want to be a big part of that. So that's where our focus is. We've got an exciting roadmap, and now it's just about executing.
Dave Michels:So if people want to set up an account and try out your service, where do they go? Yeah, bgr.com.
Michael Litt:Or you can just search the Chrome store for the video ad extension, usually installs into again, Outlook, using the G Suite or Gmail. And it's literally all you need is your Google credentials to sign in, whether that's with your personal credentials or via your business domain. And then it's the app one click a creative video one click send.
Evan Kirstel:So what do you think Dave? Are you going to add a video to the talking heads? Talking Points newsletter is that what's next for you?
Dave Michels:But I'm gonna have to find a more handsome co moderator.
Evan Kirstel:Well, very great chatting with you, Michael. I've really enjoyed all the insights you shared, and I'm going to try Minyard I think would be a great sales tool for me personally. So good luck in 2022. And thanks for joining us.
Dave Michels:Yeah, really interesting. Thank you, Michael.
Michael Litt:Happy to be here. Thank you both for your time.
Evan Kirstel:Wow, that was a great discussion with Michael from Vinyard. I really enjoyed his insights I'm going to try it I'm convinced that might have value
Dave Michels:I think we should both try it out and see how it goes. But it was really interesting and I I never really thought about using video that way the way he was describing so good conversation.
Evan Kirstel:Until then, till next time you on some information. Conversation Oh, man I gotta get out. A phone. In your phone, no man knows me.