TalkingPointz Channel Insightz #2

In this episode, we talk about the AV channel and upcoming ISE conference. Featuring Dave Berlin, President & CEO at Visual Image Display; Eric Snider, Chief Technology Officer at CTI; and Danny Rogers, Vice President Global Accounts at AVI-SPL. 

Transcript

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Welcome to Talking Heads, the informative, entertaining, and brilliant podcast on enterprise communications from the team at TalkingPoints. Before we get into today's podcast, we have a special offer for our listeners who are part of the channel. David, should we tell them about our special offer? Wow. Really? A special offer? Please tell me. We we I'm glad I'm notifying you now. We have a special offer for the members of the channel to subscribe to talking points. And so do you know do you know who the channel are? Yeah. That's everybody between the software and hardware providers and the end users. That's VARs, that's that's channel partners, that's integrators, that that covers that whole space. If if the people that make it all work, right, that make that make it all work, and they can now subscribe to premium paid talking points content for a 5th of the price. This includes the insider reports. An annual subscription has 12 insider reports. The 1st month of each week, we publish. I don't know, what's how do you describe the insider report, David? It's it's a concise yet chock full of information recap of everything that happened in the prior month, sometimes up to the prior hour before we public it. And, and it also has, you know, our analysis of what it means. What does what is the stories what do the stories actually mean? Curated and opinionated news, and it it's the most efficient way for a busy executive to stay current. But then you also get wait. There's more. But it also includes our deep dive reports, like 5 8 5, 6, 7 of these a year. I don't know. 8 of these a year. These are these are our deep dive reports where 1, you or me or both of us go deep into a subject and cover some some subject or event, everything they need to know about about something. Like, you did one recently on the on hybrid work. Yeah. And we learned a lot of things by doing that report, and we explained it to a lot of people who didn't know that either. And by being a subscriber, you also get, special special opportunities that are not available to the general public. Yeah. It's access to us. That's, you know, some private conversations and some consultations. It's a it's a great ability to to really get a get a get a handle on what's going on in the space. So so the way you get this special offer for the channel is you go to talking points.com. That's points with a z on the end. Talking points.com/bar. That's the only place you're gonna find this because it's not listed anywhere else. Talking points with a z.com/var, v a r. And what is the offer? What's the cost? The offer is, for 1 a single a single seat subscriber, 9.95 a year. Oh, you're right. That's that's even less than a 5th of what the cost typically is. Even less. Certainly, to get an edge on your competition and know what's going on in the space in a way that you wouldn't have. Limited time only. Okay. So so people should go to talking points with a z.com/var and subscribe now. We're gonna be talking this week about the channel partners, specifically AV and Video channel partners, the folks that are in between the people making products and software and the people buying products and software. I'm joined again by my partner, Dave Michaels. Dave, say hi. Hello. Great to be here. And we and we've got some we have 3 terrific guests, with us as well. Let me start with my friend, Daniel Rogers. Dan, say hi. Say tell everybody who you are and what you do. Yeah. Thank you, David. I'm absolutely thrilled to, to be on your call this week. My name is Danny Rogers. I'm, AVISPL. I'm responsible as the VP of, global strategic accounts, which is a unique program to AVISPL looking after about 40 of the truest and biggest contributors to our business. I've, been in the AV world for nearly 30 years and most of the time I've known David having worked within the manufacturing world, but most of that time working true global positions. So the experience and knowledge really gained, not just localized from an EMEA perspective, but really, across all continents. And most recently, the last 2 or 3 years, really gained a lot of experience within Asia and emerging markets such as India. As I said, I'm thrilled to be on your call and indeed looking forward to major events coming up, most notably, ISC next week. Daniel, terrific. Thank you. Dave, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell everybody who you are and what you do. Dave Berlin. Again, thank you, Dave, for inviting me. Like, my colleague, in the UK, I've known you, I've known you, Dave, for probably 35 years or so since we we started out in the industry. 34. Okay? No. 40. 40. But go ahead. We're we're dating ourselves. Yes. And, the CEO, Visual Image Display, we're a systems integrator. And I've spent my entire 40 or so years in the channel building systems for major companies doing everything from, building systems for JPMorgan, United Nations, across an array of technologies, and having had the privilege of introducing technologies like nonlinear editing and video conferencing being one of the first integrators to sell it. So, the history is long, and I'm excited to, be a part of this conversation. And finally joining us, Eric Snyder from CTI. Eric, tell everybody who you are and what you do in the industry. Guys, my name is Eric Snyder. I am the chief technology officer for CTI, and, pretty much, I make sure that people have a fantastic technical experience with our our dealings with all of other clients that we take care of. Thank you, Eric. So so as, you guys are watching this, it's the day before ISC in Barcelona. Dave Michaels and I are just about there and, starting to do some work. So let's talk about large trade shows. Dave, do you wanna ask the first question? This is this is a this is a a good build up for the show because, you know, I normally am covering collaboration, and we go to events like Enterprise Connect. And people say, why are you having an event? Why don't you just go have a online meeting or something like that? You know? Why why do you have to have these events? But it's gonna be even worse, really, in the AV space because because we're gonna be there, and there's gonna be nothing but meeting rooms on display. So it'll be all meeting rooms. So so let me ask you, what what do you look for at a conference like, ISE? Daniel? Yeah. It's a really good question, and and I guess over the years, particularly post COVID, people have asked really about the genuine value of whether it's an ISE, whether it's an Infocom. And for us as an organization that is for a European show, although it is populated and attended by people globally, we see ISE as probably the premium show. The opportunity there for someone like ABISPL where we, this year, have 2 huge stands. We have an immersive studio. We have a full summary of our what we call x t g with x t g, which is our experience, group. And then also our services based solution called Symphony is all on display. But the real value for us is the fact that every single year, our level of attendees, our level of attendance, and our level of new sales opportunity increases year over year from attending a show such as ISE. Now the interesting thing is that doesn't just come from a small European, audience. That comes from a true global audience, you know, having met, picked up business, from as far as wide as Asia and Australia and India as a consequence of being our ISE. So whether it's people we already know that are coming to the show to get reacquainted or indeed new opportunities, that attend ISE, it really is true value for us, and not only in terms of attending the day to day activity, but the extra activities outside of the event where you do have the opportunity to mix, with both suppliers and customers. As we all know, you need some stamina to get through the week in Barcelona. But in terms of getting through that, we see genuine value, of attending, and we are gonna take in excess of a 100 people, from AVISPL over those number of days. Bear in mind, the footfall traffic of ISE is somewhere between 80 to 85 1,000 people. So is it worth it for us, as an integrator Well of our size? Absolutely. It is, Dave. Well, you really set me up for my next question over to mister Berlin because, Daniel's saying that it's the biggest, most important show of the year, and and, he gets lots of leads there. So, mister Berlin, why aren't you going? Well, that's a great that's a great question. Aside from fracturing my ankle and having a level 3 sprain in my in my other knee in a torn ACL, which, That's a good reason. Prevent prevents walking any great distances. And now we we've already got AVI, SPL. Now wait with ACL. It's just like so many acronyms there. Throwing out acronyms now. You know, I've been to, 3 consecutive years of NAV, 30 plus years of consecutive info comms, and it's really important. And what I find is most important is making it personal and walking the show with clients looking for solutions. And and meeting our clients and meeting our vendors where decisions are being made and where things are happening. So it's important to see the industry as a whole, the education level that we could get. A lot of it, we can get here in the New York region. And then when we visit our global clients, a lot of them do come into an infocom or an NAB, which is where we, tend to meet them. And we try to marry them up together to dig deep into solutions and into projects. Eric, what about you? What are your thoughts? I know I assume you're attending this year. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. We have a little bit different approach on our global strategy. So I am on the leadership with PSNI, and, it's a 110 companies that work in, to produce solutions across, the globe. We do about 6,000,000,000 NAV work a year, and, and we coordinate with these companies. So a lot of times we're over there, and we're being introduced going, hey. We're gonna handle this. You're gonna handle that with a client. So they get the local service for it. So for us, it's not so much as come to the booth. I mean, we have a booth there, but it's a meeting spot. What I'm I I believe I believe, Eric, you have a stand. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Stand. Exactly. Yeah. A pretty good size stand. It's a big booth. It's a meeting place is what it is more than anything else. So what we do at the show is that we take our clients to the manufacturers while we're there and walk through and show them how the whole vision of of what we're gonna do. I mean, we have operations in, in the UK, and we have operations in India. But what I really find about ISC, IC is becoming more of the premier show, for myself because you get product launches at ISC, and then you get product fulfillment at Infocom. So, really, ISE is becoming a lot better show, and it's a little bit broader and spout of, of of of depth of of just what Infocom is. It's sort of like taking the preview of what it's gonna come at Enterprise Connect. What's gonna come at Infocom later this year. What's gonna come a little bit at NAB and ramping it all into the show. And and I think it's really important for the manufacturers because and what irritates, I know, a lot of the consultative world and a lot of the analysts out there is that a lot of products, that I've worked with over the years or or helped develop, you get a whole bunch of engineers in the room and we have our ideas and we tell them what to make, and they end up making the best products that no one buys. What I love about ISE is, hey. We have this product. We're gonna show you it. We don't know if we're gonna make it or not, but it helps them start tweaking the value of that product to end users right away, whether or not even the product should be made. So I'm a big fan of, hey. You know what? Put the silkscreen box on it. It is vaporware. Don't be afraid to do that. Get that out in front of a crowd as fast as you can to determine whether or not you should make it to begin with. Right? And and and it makes it a lot more efficient. It makes better products. And, you know, you got a 100000 people that attend the show. I think it was, like, about a 105 last year or something like that. They have a global market. And, it's it's just a lot better being more directly connected between our our role here, between the manufacturers and then users at that show than I I I believe. I think InfoComm starting to come that way, but ISC has always been that way. Now all all 3 of you talked about customers. Daniel specifically talked about getting new customers and prospects, which is kinda strange because you guys are all channel people, and every manufacturer knows that that you only are order takers. You don't actually get new customers. And so so I was kinda surprised by that. What how do you get customers? Does does trade shows the way you do it all year? Or or what how how does the modern channel partner get prospects today? Well, that's just a it's just a small part when you look at the overall marketing effort and the sales effort of an organization that is truly global operating on every theater around the world. You know, the lifeblood of business is, you know, retain, prospect, and yield. And to yield new customers is really about being in the right place, making sure we're marketing to those customers, and we're selling to them, in terms of solution based opportunities. And they go across all sectors. So whether it's every single business vertical from finance to legal to construction to manufacturing to education, and it does vary from location to location. But there are so many opportunities right across all of those. The market is big enough for all those players in the market, but we do market not just at trade shows, but right across the piece when it comes to you know, the amount of traffic via the website is is extraordinary. The amount of traffic through referrals and references is also huge. But there's also another element of that when you talk about growing business is also looking from within with customers you're already trading with. So when you look at the biggest, what we call our GSAT customers, our global strategic account, customers, when you look at some of the biggest, I won't mention all their names on here, but those customers are actually driving and growing year over year in terms of looking at different technologies, different solutions, different services that we can provide as we grow, the larger size of the white space that they have in their organizations. And as we all know, in terms of the return to work, different ways of working, the different technologies, which are all accelerating faster than at any other time, making sure that we are connected to the consultants, to the design people, to the smart building people, to the corporate real estate are all ways to grow and develop, our business. And having seen growth considerable growth in, over, you know, the last 20 years, been number 1 in system contractor news, for that for the last 20 odd years actually shows we are growing. But we are seeing it from different areas of the world. We've already mentioned the likes of Asia and particularly India, and that's where we're seeing a lion's share of that growth comes from. You know, you guys remind me this with this conversation about what we talked about, you know, just during and after the pandemic in terms of the value of conferences. And I had this conversation with end users that attend and with with manufacturers and with with with VARs such as yourselves. And, and and I I think the the majority of people talked about the most important reason to be at the show was to see people. The secondary reason is you wanna understand what the new technology is. You wanna understand what companies are doing. Obviously, you wanna talk to your existing clients, find new clients. But the whole point is we can do a lot of that online, better or worse, the same, whatever, but we can't hug and we can't shake hands and we can't go face to face with people we've known for 40 years or so in the industry. And, you know, Eric, what are your thoughts about that? I mean, is is how is that the most important part for you? Yeah. It's like for us. That's one of the strategies. And and, please, I'm not dogging anyone else. Right? I'm just saying one of the strategies that we've that we've done maybe uniquely at the shows is that, look, I'm here to educate you. I'm not here to tell you what you're gonna do. I'm not here even to do that. So here's the thing. We're here. Mister client. Come to the show. I'm gonna show you, Polly, I'm gonna show you Yealink. I'm gonna show you, you know, I'm also gonna show you, Layard here. Right? You know? Or whatever you would like to look at. I'm gonna be your trusted adviser here on the floor, and you can't see all this under one roof in an hour that I can show you here in an hour and let you make up your own mind about it. Right? We'll talk about the strengths and weaknesses about it. These are the people so you can get the trust with the manufacturer on it. We're bridging the gap, and we're more of a concierge service if that makes sense. Right? Where I can go walk them around to the different technologies. We do a ton, a ton, a ton of, like, maybe 200 manufacturers to have in our back pocket to go walk the client around to what they might be exploring here at the show. And that we found that it builds a lot stronger, relationship with the client. We're them. And you can't do that not face to face and not at a show like this. The problem is that shows are so overwhelming that unless you have someone there to kinda be your guide, or your scout for the show, you you could easily get lost at ISE. My first ISE, oh my gosh, I was best intentions to go find everything, and then I found nothing. Right? You know? You you you gotta kinda, hey. These are the areas, that we're gonna go explore and kinda have that for them. And and you just You're not you're not as seasoned as me. I I can find the best chocolates and the best candies very, very, efficiently. You know? That's, that's coffee. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just gonna tag on to what Eric just said. It's about building that personal relationship, and, my old company was one of the founders of PSNI. So we were involved with it, since it was 5 guys getting together in Wisconsin, which, goes back goes back some. But it's also an opportunity for us to meet our partners overseas and who's gonna be doing those builds. Because what one one of the things that has changed so much is we are really in a global business. When we started back 40 odd years ago, you know, you had your AV guy, and he ran an entity, a law firm, a financial institution in New York. And then the guy in Chicago did his thing, and the guy in LA did his thing, and the guy in the UK did their thing. And they rarely talked. Now it it's all come together. So it's an opportunity for us to meet everybody together and get on the same page throughout the corporate enterprise and to build those relationships. And one of the things that we started doing early on with trade shows is we would take our some of our best clients and put them in touch and go to have a a very nice dinner with clients that we were prospecting to or working with. And having our you know, when I when I'm bragging about myself, I'm bragging. When the clients are are are talking about how wonderful we are, they're endorsing and recommending, And they have a higher it's up higher value. And so one of the things we're always looking to do and how do we one of the questions, David, do you ask was, how do we how do we grow our business? And it's through reputation. Right? Doing the right thing through references. We have certain clients that wherever they go in the businesses over these 30 or plus years, they always bring us along because they know we're gonna make them look good to their management team and to the construction company and to the consultants. So it's an opportunity to get together, to meet partners, and for our clients to meet one another, which is why some of these networking events that we have, wherever we have them, are so important. Because it it is a commute it it it's still small enough to be a community of professionals where we all kind of know each other and we respect one another in what we do. K. So That that makes our industry unique. As analysts, Dave and I have the privilege and the pain of talking to manufacturers and service providers before the show with all of the new things that they're going to be pitching. And and, you know, there's a plus and minus. I know there are a couple of really good new products coming out at the show, and we're gonna have videos talking about that, you know, for for the week week weeks afterwards up to Enterprise Connect. But, but I also know that at past shows, companies introduced, you know, not just vaporware, Eric, that you're talking about, like, hey. What do you think if we build this? They say, here's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's one product out there right now that's that's that's being discussed in a demo room that's been being discussed for 3 years. There's a, you know, there's another product by a major manufacturer, you know, that was based around Pepper's Ghost that they made a huge deal about for 2 years, and it's literally nothing because it was already a failed technology. What do you gentlemen do either before the show, at the show, or after the show to get information about what's real, what's vaporware, and what's come out? How do you stay informed? Because if you're standing still at an ISE or an NAB or an Infocom, you're not getting that information. You're talking to your clients coming to you, but you have no idea what else is going around. So let's go in the reverse order. Dave, what what do you do? How do you how do you, learn about what's going on in the industry? I mean, clearly, it's through manufacturers. It's through trade magazines. It's through manufacturers coming in and talking to us. And and I never rarely do I ever let a manufacturer, meet with my sales team without first meeting with my engineering team. Because, eventually, somebody has to show up and make it all work and bring it all together and suss out what's real, when it's gonna be delivered, and test it out. And you can't do that. I mean, that's such an important part of what we do, because we are that last mile. We're the ones that have to show up and, make it work. And I remember sitting, years ago at probably one of the largest, or one of the largest opportunities we're ever at. And my head of engineering, stood up and said, this won't work. If you guys wanna make try to make it work, I wish you the best of luck. I'm out of here. And he got up from the meeting and basically left. He goes because it won't ever work. And and we all looked around at each other, and and the client asked the consulting. He goes, has this ever been done before? And the consultant said, no. And he goes, are you gonna be here at 2 o'clock in the morning trying to make this work? And the consultant said no. And he goes, well, let's go with with the engineer who's gonna be here at 2 o'clock in the morning wants to do. And I think, you know, we're we're the rubber meets the road, because we're gonna be held to that standard. We're the ones showing up on-site with our crews making it work. And we need to we need to test it in house. We need to make sure it's rock solid because businesses, more than ever now, are depending on what we build for their everyday work just to get their job done. Eric, how do you as a as a, you know, as a VAR and a channel partner get your information about what's real and what's not and what's coming out? Well, a lot of it has to do with we you know, you create your preferred partners around you and you get involved. That it's it's amazing. I I sit here and look at some products going, why did you do that? Why was that a good idea? Just like you were talking about, David. Right? And, actually, I reverse it. I think sales should lead engineering because the problem is is that if you're gonna make a product, it's gotta solve something, and there has to be a need out there. If you're on the r and d team with them going, hey. We're gonna jointly solve this problem. And, I mean, down to where I'm at because I'm a geeky engineer guy. Right? I go down to FPGA level. Right? You know? I'm going down to, alright. We have this Qualcomm SOC in this device. I know what it can do. I know this one can do MDEB. Well, is MDEB important or not? I don't know. Let's wait and see. Let's see what we can do with that. Right? But we're solving for the problem at a price point someone's willing to pay. Those those products tend to get you on the forefront and you know what's in the sauce before you even bring it to the client and see where it's at on the you know, it would cause you to sign a whole bunch of NDAs or the whisper suites. But if you're working with your your partners instead of just finding what the latest, buzz at the biggest crowded info Infocommer IC, you're a little bit too late at that point, I think. So the bigger one is is you gotta get involved. Have your prefer they all want your information because they are not dealing the manufacturers typically are not dealing with end clients directly. So they come up with all kinds of crazy ideas that isn't gonna isn't gonna sell or, like Dave said here, isn't gonna work. So the better one is is to go look at, hey. Look. Instead of you creating the next gen technology, let's find out what problems need to be solved in the market first, and let's go gear it towards that because that's a lot you know, if you got a crystal ball and you said you can predict the future in 2 years, you're full of crap, but you can probably, predict the next 6 months. Right? So I'm not gonna say here, but I got tremendous numbers of stories about manufacturers who don't didn't want to fund, customer advisory boards. They wanted to fund advisory boards at the c suite so that they could get they didn't wanna talk to the people that actually use the equipment because they didn't wanna hear that there were problems with the equipment. They wanted to capture mind share of the CTO, and that's a beautiful example of what not to do, a short term bump and a long term failure. So I've I've been through that so many times. Biggest one right now is that there is a disconnect in the AV industry and I'll get in trouble for saying, I'm gonna say something very controversial right now. You're full of crap on software as a service right now. The big problem right now is, is there is a consolidation in the enterprise world where we've done tons of research right now, where there has been a sharp reduction of SaaS right now. Software as a service and everything else. You can't do it just because you can't create a product just because it creates RMR. That those days are gone. That stopped in 2023 going into 2024. Now you have a consolidation in the industry, right? You know, There are trends. And when you're talking to the IT staff, right, they're like going, hey. If this has MDAP and I can use Intune, alright. Now I'm interested because this might be Internet of things. But everyone is standing around going, oh, who's gonna go first? Or I have this invested with this. I've had my system. Why should I allow someone who hasn't invested in this system? Well, if the IT department looks at Intune as their remote monitoring service, in-depth then becomes a lot more valuable. But knowing the insights to that and being able to talk at that level on those conversations shows the reason why manufacturers are exploring it or maybe Microsoft is leveraging what they wanna leverage or what's going on within the industry. And there is no right or wrong answer. You gotta go out there with your client because I can't predict that right now. It's gonna be what the client wants to adopt for it. What what I find really interesting about this conversation, because when we talked to is you guys aren't threatened by the manufacturers. Most channel partners we talk to see the manufacturers as the competitors. The people don't wanna bring their customers to conferences because they don't wanna they don't want their customers to see what they what else they can buy. What I'm I'm really surprised by this because a lot of what we're seeing, video bars as an example in a in a meeting room are just an Amazon purchase away, a last click away. I don't need a channel partner. How much are you feeling threatened, by the by the, manufacturers? It's a it's a it's a really good question in actual fact, and just to finish off Eric's point because Eric made a couple of very key points there. One about that relationship, the holistic relationship with the manufacturers is probably as important as it has ever been, and we need to coexist, and we need each other to do that. So I don't think anyone worth their salt really should be worried about that, devaluing product, making it all Amazon iced, and taking it to a commodity based business because there's always value. And to the question you asked, David, in conjunction with that, you know, the the communication, obviously, in a privileged position that AVISPL, for example, enjoys, that position where we get to know about technologies well in advance, those releases and updates. But that all fits into the picture that Eric was talking about is actually knowing what customers need. We call that 3rd box thinking, which is the whole concept and idea of understanding when you have a global account, what are they being expected to deliver for their employees, for their management, for their board to be successful. The understanding that so the people we're dealing with are delivering the corporate message and the corporate stack and the corporate technology so they are successful. And you look at any of the major corporate customers, and you will find exactly what their methodology, their approach, their 3rd box thinking is. So that's fundamental. So to answer the second point, Dave, in terms of the question, in in our position, we wholeheartedly embrace, communication in whether it's direct in conjunction with those manufacturers because that's healthy. But there also has to be we should never be afraid of the value wrap that we add to that technology and those solutions. Because if it's a dimple box, Dale, then none of us are on this call, a, adding any value, but more importantly, making any money. And that's a key aspect, and none of us should be afraid of saying that. Our value comes from being, an integrator, a workplace services provider, and everything that goes around it because we've talked about globalization. And if we're looking to do, a sound bar in a room, for a Zoom call, then I wonder really how much value are we actually genuinely making from, from that proposition. Right. You know, on that one, let me add one thing to that. The other problem is is don't be disingenuous. Don't blow the pro. In the EV industry. Right? We got a bad rap of over complicating rooms, right? Over complicating the scenario. Right? The thing is, is that they it's because you're looking at a tree and not the entire forest of the client ecosystem. Don't over complicate it. They made this, it goes in a room. It's just a bar. This room only needs a bar. It's only a 15 feet back, not complicated audio. They made it all in one. And when you make it all in one, you gotta make it to exact parameters to work really well. So the problem is, is that what the manufacturer's made and what's really out there in the world are totally different. They can't make one with enough wide variation to cover all the needs of the client. There's gonna be a couple rooms where it's just a bar. They can go buy off Amazon's and install. I was with 1 of the manufacturers standing there in the room for a major global client. And the manufacturer goes, well, it's easy. You could just stow it on the wall and install it. And he goes, I have 3 people to do it for 3,000 rooms. So they aren't doing that. They can't go do that. So the thing is, is they need us one way or the other. And in these rooms they go, oh, well guess what? I don't just have 15 person rooms. I have an open ceiling. Oh, we're gonna do this out here in an open space area. When you get to it and you don't over complicate it and you provide them with good information and keep the simple, simple, but also be able to provide solutions for the complex and tie it all in together. That's the reason why we go to these shows because I don't know if any one manufacturer that you're only using 1 manufacturer to do the whole room solution right now, period. Well, you guys have the benefit of that that that it takes multiple vendors to put these together. The reason we put this to this, series together is we really wanted to get more into the channel specific issues. I think it was Daniel touched on the website earlier. I wanna find out how you guys are actually getting, new prospects. For us, for example, we sometimes sneak in promotions, in our in our podcast. Like, for example, if you were a bar and you wanted to subscribe to our content, you can go to talking points.com/var and get a special offer that you wouldn't find anywhere else. And so so that's one way of doing it. So how how are you getting prospects? Are you are you counting on the vendors to give you prospects? Are you advertising? Are you doing websites? Are you doing Google Ads? How do you how do you fill your pipe? Let's let's go back to Dave. Well, I I just would like to comment on something, that Eric had said. We've been using the terms between integrator and bar. I think it's always really important that we we keep in mind what is our value. What is the value that we're adding to any situation? Even if it's putting 3,000 bars up, they need to be done at a certain height. They need to be done with a certain consistency. They need to be tested, and maybe they need to be managed. So you know that they're, you know, on point, that everything's working, what rooms are down. So we keep going back to what is the value that we lend to any situation. And especially with our global accounts, it's so important that we keep that in mind. Sometimes it's just scale. Sometimes it's introducing new technologies. Sometimes it's looking at a space and looking at the acoustics in a space and saying, oh, wow. These are all really hard surfaces. I have a 30 foot high ceiling. I have glass, and I have sunlight hitting this front wall all day. So what's the brightness level? How am I gonna, adjust for the audio? To your point, I'm I'm getting, clients. You know, I I think it's a combination of things. I think we had mentioned it earlier. It's about reputation. It's about being consistent. It's about building relationships. It's about showing up for your clients. It's about making every transaction a little bit personal. It's about your website. It's about advertising. It's about capturing the mind share of people. And I think it's about doing certain things uniquely better than anyone else. I think in in the businesses, the the one business I had before this, being known for being excellent at something. Having that one thing that you do that you're known for as being the best and having the best team around you that you could possibly do and and growing it and growing a business. Well, Dave, you you also, made the point online about how some of the and let's face it. And I'm I'm right with you, Eric. I'm right with you. We're in a shrinking industry. Not specifically that there are less people putting in technology, but there are less vendors. You know, we read every day about, you know, CTI just bought another company and AVI SPI. Everybody's growing, by by by shrinking, by small companies going away. Dave, you made the point online about how, that the larger companies, you know, are not necessarily providing that same I'll be right over service, and you're trying to make a niche for how service used to be. I mean, give us a couple of words about that. Why why do you see the the value that you provided VID a little uniquely? Mean so while we have, a 1,000 installations throughout Europe, we have a very tight network of people that we use. Here, we try to always use the same people to go out on service calls, to go out on installations, to manage a a project. Right? So when you see some some companies not doing that, I mean, there's certain companies they don't have technicians that they actually own. Right? Everything is subcontracted. They don't have that escalation point, except for maybe some of their best clients. We try to keep everything pretty consistent. We could do that. I mean, we're a lot this organization is a lot smaller than the organizations I'm on the call with. So we we make everything very personal. We keep things together, and you're gonna know your customer service rep when you pick up the phone. You're gonna know your technician, and we're not gonna just rotate it out every every single time. The same person, you have a a very high likelihood of getting the same person, 3 out of 4 times on a service call. Eric We're on a an engineering call. Eric, Danny, you know, are are we as an industry, you know, the the we talked earlier a couple of times today about the top 50, integrators list. Are we at a point where we're gonna run out of companies? There aren't gonna be 50 integrators. There are gonna be 12, and, you know, what was that movie with, you know, that every restaurant's gonna be a Taco Bell or something like that? You know? Are we are we shrinking too fast? We we are shrinking. There's no doubt about it. You know, and all of us here, we're mature guys that have been around this industry for many, many years. However, there is always a need, and that need for, personality, localized support is people with diva value from. Personally, I do see a value from that, but we can't get away from where we are focused as an organization when we're dealing, with a FTSE 500 organizations globally, that do want to the point whether it's 300, speakers or whether they want the same digital signage walls all around the world. That has to be consistent. It has to be a programmatic approach to that delivery, and then that's where the value actually comes from that economies of scale. But to suggest that, you know, people in the contractor news top 50, that the top 25 are only gonna exist is, would be foolish to say because there's space to operate for every single one no matter what they are. And then there is the diversification, of course, of technologies, whether we talk about AI, whether we talk about experience centers, whether we talk about global managed services, and the list goes on and on and that. So that verification of and diversification of spend is gonna mean that there's still space for everybody. But what it is gonna also mean is that we're all gonna have to play nicely in the sandbox, and that is not just integrators, VARs, digital workplace services providers, which we call ourselves, but also the corporate real estate people, the consultants, the design people, the building management people. They all have to be aligned into an ecosystem where they coexist because not one single one of those can exist on their own. Not single one of those is gonna provide a full, solution state. They have to coexist to provide the customer what they want. And don't forget, and I think we all understand this, if we'd have had this conversation 10 years ago, 15 years ago, technology was fairly luddite. It would move at a certain pace. Technology is moving at such a fast pace now that, really, what we talk about now, if we came back in 18 months, 2 years' time, we may have a very different conversation about the technologies we talk about today because of the accelerated nature of, what's being brought to bear. You know, I actually have one customer as an example that is doing an annual technology upgrade, and and we have to stop for a minute to actually think about that. They're doing an annual technology upgrade. It's almost like a perpetual, project in itself that's going on. So the end of 12 months, they're gonna we would do that used to be a 3 to 5 year sound cycle, technology upgrade cycle. It's every 12 months. Go figure. Kevin, you're in the area. I wanna ask, about, some specific product categories. The last podcast we did, we talked about foams. With this group, I wanna ask you about boards. Boards have been on the market now, electronic whiteboards, basically, for meeting rooms. I'm gonna say around 2019 around there. I have yet to be in a meeting where someone uses a board. Does anyone use boards? And have you ever sold a board based on the board use? Not not the all in one use, but the board use. And so, let's talk about boards for a minute. Tell tell me what what are you finding with boards? I'm finding with Zoom clients. Zoom uses boards a lot more than the Teams are. For us, what's unique about us is that we're almost 5050 in Zoom and Teams. A lot of, places will be more Teams than Zoom on that, but we're in some unique verticals, you know, because of the of our acquisition strategy. We're a team of Teams that put us into a lot of Zoom areas and know it's not education. But with Zoom and Whiteboard specifically and the way that they use those calls, I see a ton of boards being used in that. And that can What what are they being used for? Are they playing tic tac toe? Are they are they what what are they what what are they what what what what Justice uses them a ton. What what are they? What what what Justice uses them a ton. So if you're into e courts, you're using them a ton. If you're into, engineering, engineering's still using them a ton. And if you're into process mapping, they're still using them a ton. So, you know, education can kinda just go to you know, that is becoming very commoditized in that k through 12 space out there. So then that that one varies. But for the boards, no. You know, your regular corporate, you see application in the room. No one wants to get up to go dial the number maybe in a touchdown room maybe. Right? But the boards on the actual, work through work through with the engineers, what we're seeing in courts, what we're seeing a little bit in, more advanced at higher ed, but they're not really using them anyway. That's that's where we're seeing the the UC boards if you if you if they're if they're connected for it. Anybody else? Yeah. I I would I would say the we we've been in situations where, a company, Microsoft specifically came in and sold this corporate entity 75 boards. And and we were, like, literally talking to the CEO of this large pharmaceutical company. Go. You are never gonna stand up. You are never going to take the time to learn how to work this properly. You're gonna wanna sit at your sit in your seat. Your engineering team, yes. They should be using boards. Different teams within that organization that need to work through a solution together. But in the boardroom, in that in the typical conference room, nobody's gonna take the time to understand that. And then and, frankly, in a lot of teaching institutions, you know, higher ed, we've, we've not seen it in in high use. We've seen it in high sales, but we've not seen it in high use. Hey, Dave. Very specific platforms, very specific instances. It's a good idea. Have you seen it in marketing? I think marketing I I've been seeing some trends, like marketing. Very collaborative environments Yeah. Where people are working together on a solution. Or we're gonna do I would technology just add to that then then really, because I couldn't agree more with Eric and Dave. Most notably in specific applications, engineering, for instance, manufacturing, absolutely, education, absolutely. But I think, Dave was absolutely right. We've seen a fairly significant number of sales, but if those are transferred into high end utilization, I would be amazed, only in the verticals we've really suggested, most notably because people are actually using different collaboration tools to be able to do that. And and and that's almost a subject in itself, I think. Maybe that's another future one, David, and Dave, you know, for future technology discussions really based around the utilization of products and what they really are used for in itself is a subject matter. But, yeah, I certainly agree with the other gentleman. Dave, I have seen a increase in telehealth too, oddly. That's really interesting. I'm I'm I'm curious. I I was surprised that you said, what what did you say? Courts? You said justice. I I feel what you said. What what vertical you called it, but I wasn't expecting that one. Engineering, I was kind of expecting. But, yeah, I just, the Dave, the, the courts one is interesting because that's what every single court in the in Europe will have one. They're part of the witness protection program, and there are certain course, there are certain let me choose my words carefully here. There are certain subjects Oh, the witness protection program, you can draw a mustache on somebody so they can, you know, keep their identity a secret. Yeah. That's right. But they they have a they absolutely. But, yeah, they and the and that saves time and that saves money from from that aspect, but that's the reason why. Very interesting. Okay. So, from a channel perspective, how how is the how is your business changing in a bad way? I mean, is it is it I mean, I I was put I threw out there the your vendors are competing with you. You guys said, no. That's not the case. I've I've what what is how is the channel getting squeezed in the AV space? I'll go ahead, Anthony. Everyone's everyone's happy to jump in there. Well, I think everyone's trying to be polite here. So, Don't don't be polite. Alright. Let me let me Go ahead, Daniel. No. Go. Okay. I'll go ahead. I don't think there are too many bad bits at the moment when you actually look at the the it's just the change of the business. You know, when we've seen CAGR and growth year growth year over year, it really is coming from a different type of sales cycle and a sales model. And it's interesting because we're almost going back full circle to ISE. Yeah. But you just said the tech you said the technology refresh is getting shorter. You're you're doing great. That's not that's not bad news. No. No. I'm suggesting it's not bad news, but what I'm also suggesting is the type of sales model that we deploy now. And, again, coming back to ISE, every year, we have a we have a hook or strap line, and this year, it's, it's called Dare to Dream. And that is the concept of the bigger picture opportunities as opposed to all fighting in a bun fight sale of a codec and a soundbar in a room. Really, what is your experience? We have a group called the experiential, theater group within the organization, and that's working with customers on virtual reality. It's designing buildings solution spaces that they can actually see and feel before they invest. That's another market, another opportunity that's way beyond where we are going now, that actually gives customers a feeling that they can visualize it, they can see it, they can feel it, before they start to invest. So I don't think there is a, too much of a downturn in our industry, but I think the evolution and growth, in terms of what we're providing, I think, has changed, and and long may that continue because it does actually add much greater value in a global experience in a global market. Kirk? I would say and we were a small company at one time too. Real small. You know? We just happen to get lucky to grow. The one thing that was really true when we were smaller and we got away from it, but we went back to it is I would I would really watch out for the whales out there. Right? You know, everyone wants to go land a whale of 3,000 rooms or something like that. Right? The trade offs that you have to make are if you're not the right fit for it or even if you are large and the right fit, then they're asking too much, is that you have the dollar value amount in in in some, you know, design consultant or or engineers or I'm sorry. Sales consultant size, basically. You know? But dig into it. Right? You know? At the time of the day, if you're gonna get tied into something that is gonna be a long term investment, the value has to be back there for you. So if everyone's gonna go after this and go after that, the giant million, $2,000,000 opportunity, $20,000,000 opportunity, and it doesn't serve you well and you're and and you can't be paid for your value, feel free to walk away from it. There's enough work in the industry right now to go to go to go provide value for a client when and have them value you and perceive your value. Right? You know, it's okay to say no on a couple projects. So in the industry right now, there's a habit. I've seen a couple of companies go down, pretty hardcore because they went after that whale, and they were not paid for their value. And they have all their capital tied up in this. And and if you're in this kind of, economy and an environment, it it can take you pretty quick. Evelyn, I'll give you the last word here. What would you change about the relationship with manufacturers, the relationship with service providers, the relationship with clients, your role again, all of your roles in the middle of this? What what what would you would would you change with the magic wand to make it better and solve a problem? Well, you know, we're cert it came up earlier. Are we threatened by our manufacturers? And and the answer is that maybe at one time in my career, I I had a lot of disdain when manufacturers would call on our clients directly and try to get them to buy something. But I think there's still room, and and I'm certainly not that way any longer. It's just a part of life. Manufacturers are going to have are going to put their agenda forward directly to the client. I wish they would bring us in more actively, when they are doing that. Because a lot of times, we find out, oh, the so and so rep was just in and told us this or told us that. I mean, we really are, manufacturer agnostic. So I would I would hope that the manufacturer would understand our our role a little bit more and bring us in when appropriate, a little bit earlier into the whole solution. Because as someone said, no one manufacturer makes the entire solution or understands the entire problem. Right? We're the people that are showing up, with ladders, to put things in to get things working. And I think on the client side, the thing that I would change is and it's come up tangent, in a very roundabout way, is how are clients measuring usage in a room? How often is that feature getting used? How often is that room getting used? What is happening? I mean, you know, we have a we have thousands of retail locations. People are putting in 1,000,000 of dollars a year in counters and in freestanding stores. And nobody's measuring what the effect of an act, of the content that they're playing at a specific counter is. And I I for the life of me, as an accountant at my heart, I don't understand how you are making 1,000,000 of dollars of investment without measuring what's actually what the results are. So I would I mean, I would want to sell things that are being used in helping the businesses who are selling to. That's the purpose of what we do, making things easier, making the message easier to communicate, and I'm not sure how that's being measured and or if it's being measured in any effective way. So I would love to change that with our customers. We'll have to get you that magic wand so you can make those changes. Gentlemen, let's go once more around the horn so everybody knows how to reach out to you. Danny, how could somebody reach out to you, find out more about your company? Yeah. Thank you, David. Danny.rogers@avispl.com. That's danny.rogers atavispl.com, and look forward to seeing you in Barcelona ISE stand 1205 hash. We'll see you there. Thank you. See you there tomorrow, Danny. Eric, what about you? How can somebody reach out to you, find out more about what the CTI does? Yeah. You can hit cti.com. I'm available at eric.snyder@cti.com. You can hit me on LinkedIn, and, we'll be with the psni, dot org group, out there in, Barcelona. And you can visit us at our center if you'd like. Or if not, I will see you in the booths. Terrific. Thank you. And, Dave Berlin, how can somebody reach out to you and find out more about what, VID does? Dberlin@visualimage.com. Hit me up on LinkedIn. Send me an email. Pretty easy to find. Dave, Danny, Eric, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Dave Michaels, what was that, website again that we wanna really take a look at for this special offer? Website is talking points dot com with a z on the end. Talking points with a z, but the special offer for channel partners is stocking points.com/bar. Perfect. Thank you very much, and thank you very much.