10. Practical Strategies to Lead Successfully by SAICA's Compassionate CEO, Patricia Stock CA(SA)

Navigating Leadership, Team Dynamics, and Organisational Structure: In Conversation with Patricia Stock

In this inspiring episode of CANDID, we get to hear from Patricia Stock, the recently appointed CEO of SAICA.

Patricia shares invaluable insights from her first 60 days in her new role, discussing strategies for transitioning into a new team or organisation, and the importance of building relationships and continuous learning.

She also details her observations on board structures, focusing on the thin line between operational and oversight roles. Patricia then speaks to the crucial role of diversity within organisations, underlining the need for an 'open door policy of the mind and mouth' to encourage inclusivity and fair opportunities.

This episode offers enriching advice for professionals at all career stages.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

00:37 Patricia's Journey and Transition into SAICA

03:06 Understanding Leadership and Influence

08:53 Transitioning into a New Team or Organisation

18:42 Understanding the Role of Boards and Their Functionality

29:38 Embracing Diversity within Businesses

35:11 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to another episode of candid. In this episode, I'm joined by Patricia Stock, who is the recent CEO of SAICA. Patricia has got tremendous professional experience under her belt. And in this episode, what you're going to see is her take on how to actually move into a new team or new organisation, how to first prioritise the people within it, and then go straight into business as well as then also talking on, on a board structure. Around how boards should be functional. And also what are dysfunctional boards. I hope that you'll enjoy it. Patricia, thank you so much for, for joining me in this episode, and I think a lot of people, of course, know what the incredible announcement was in your career, where from the 1st of December, 2023, you joined SAICA as the CEO. Just jumping straight into what it's been like over the last, let's call it 60 days for you, what has been pretty exciting about landing in the business now as the CEO and looking at what's to come? Wow. Thank you so much for, for your kind words there. It's, it has been a. Interesting journey. Uh, but more importantly, the journey of learning. Uh, for me it's, it's also a journey of rediscovery, if I can use that word. And I, and I use that because it's, I, I'm, I'm, I'm in a different season. I'm in a new season, a different era of my life, and the last 60 days has been. Learning, obviously the business, learning how, um, you know, how other people work. Establishing relationships as well. But more importantly, learning about myself. Um, in terms of that, going back to what I, what do I have, you know, my strength as well. And, and how do I, uh, make sure that with intentionality I can help the organisation move from where it's at and elevate. To, to, um, achieve whatever it is that we can achieve together. So it's been a wonderful journey so far, and I'm really that sponge. I'm, I'm very intentional to say this is a phase of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, learn as far as much as I can whilst I'm actually doing what I need to do as well at the same time. So, yeah, it's, it's wonderful. It's been exciting. It's an opportunity that. I am very grateful for. So that's my gratefulness. Yeah, and, and I emphasise gratefulness because I am a strong believer that the first step to elevation or. To get to that level of altitude, it, it starts with gratefulness, just appreciating what is it that you have and what does it mean? So I see this as a gift, um, and it's a gift that I've got a responsibility to pay it forward. You know? Um, I believe that you can only be a, a blessing when you are blessed, uh, yourself, you know, so, so it is a blessing for me to be in this position, but I have the responsibility to make sure that I, I paid forward to, to the profession as a whole. So, yeah. It's been wonderful. If you were to think now around the title that comes with a CEO, I would say on the one side, a title is a key influencer in how people treat you. And on the other side where you work is another factor, um, of how people can treat you. So combining a title, you know, as CEO to then an established organisation like SAICA, how does one make sure that you. You don't, you don't get misled right? In the fact that people are treating you differently because you've, you've got this now incredible gift and you've, and you've gotta make sure that you're a custodian of it. For you. How should you make sure that we hold ourselves accountable no matter what our title and where we work? How should we actually hold ourselves accountable so that we don't get an inflated head to that level where we think that we are? Um, the actual title that we're just, let's call it borrowing. Wow, sure. Wow. There's so much richness in that question because you touch on the, uh, the question of is leadership a title or is it influence, you know, and, and at what stage are you, are you able to influence? I think those are the, that's, that's how I actually take your question. Right. For me, it's a very important question because it's, it's something that I also reflect on to say, what is it that I still need to work on, um, you know, in the organisation in terms of at what point of influence do I find myself, right? Because I love the, the, the, the hierarchy by. John C. Maxwell, he's my biggest influencer, you know, in the space of, of leadership. I mean, you look at that together with Jim Co. Uh, Jim Collins, 'cause he also did the, the hierarchy kind of model of leadership. And to your question, especially around the title, it's the position, right? I, you know that in every organisation that you get to, people will give you some form of respect. You know, because people, they follow you probably because they have to.'cause you're the CEO, right?'cause you, and you've got the right, you know, for, for, for, for that role. That that role gives you the right, you know, to lead. However. The, the part that I spoke about earlier on in terms of how is it going, it's at that point of permission. At what point do you get to that point of permission where relationship is, is established, where people, um, you know, you lead them, you influence them because of the instant relationship. People follow you because they, they want to follow you. Right. And, and the point where you move, move at the, at the next level where it's really about production, where people follow you because they, they know what you have done, what you can do for the organisation. And it's more about result, result focus. Right. So, so it's those different levels, right. And, and also the point where you move from that result to reproduction. Right where people follow you because they know what is it that you have done for them, what you can do for them, how you can help them grow and reproduce themselves. It's, it's about people development. So, so in the stages that I'm at. You can already assess it, say, well, you know, in the organisation where you at currently, you know, as I aspire to get to the point of the, the, the pinnacle, the pinnacle level as a leader, where I know that, um, you know, people will follow me because they know what I represent of who am I, and, and that it's, it's at, at the respect level, right? So, so the title itself does not necessarily automatically end you the respect. It's not about the title, it's about the influence that you, that you bring into an organisation. You know, as to whether people, uh, are able to relate with you. Do they see the results? Are you able to reproduce as well? Um, and are you able to help them to get to the point of getting to the results? So, so for me, it is a journey. Right leadership. It's, it's a journey. It's not arriving at the particular point in time, and I'm very much mindful of that. But also in this journey, it's a journey that you take along. You take others along with you. So it's, it's, it's, it's a great question that you're asking. Um. Something that I'm mindful of. It's a work in progress and I cannot say that I've been a leader in this organisation and that organisation. We've done amazing work. Great. It's, it gives me a great foundation. There are things that I can carry forward that I can, you know, still apply in, in, in, in this organisation that I'm with, but. Not everything is gonna work, right? Because every environment requires its own different set of solution, its own leadership style. And hence for me, adaptability becomes very key as well to say, how do I adapt to what the environment need, what the people that I'm need, I'm leading need as well, so that I can help them grow. And, and, and that's my life's philosophy. Hey, um, grant, that it's important that I grow. As, as, um, as, as I grow the organisation, but also help others grow as we are growing, uh, together, you know, so, so yeah. It's, it's a journey. Um, and, and, and the journey of growth. It's continuous and such as leadership. It's not getting to a specific point. It is a journey on a day-to-day. Yeah. I'm a big fan of, of leadership being more like a practice right. Than, than than a particular, you know, destination. So yeah, I definitely agree with that. We have to make sure that we see it as a daily practice because of course you never reach this and so therefore you never become the complete expert and you have to just try your best to adapt, as you say, um, to the changing environment. Yeah. Knowing that every organisation has a different environment with the slightly, or, or, or materially. So, yes, Patricia. If you were to think then about now someone watching or listening to this episode and they're about to join a new team, or they're about to join a new organisation at every, at any level that they're at, but they're going to be responsible to lead, um, that particular team or organisation for you, what? Practically speaking, should they, uh, look to do in their first, you know, seven to 30 days? I mean, you've literally gone through this now for the last 60 days. For you, uh, what were those practical priorities that you were, um, making sure that you were getting done, whether it be asking questions, having certain meetings, what for you is a, a real important priority or a couple of them that people need to pay attention to when doing that?. So, so, so for me, the, the, the biggest one was the starting point. That not to start from an assumption of people don't know, you know, just appreciating that there are people in the organisation that have been doing the work some for many years, even for that matter. That they know. They know what they're doing, but what they should be doing as well. You know, so I started from that assumption that. There are, there are, um, things that are working well, you know, uh, as much as just with anything in life, even with us as people, there's always room for improvement, right? So I started from that basis that, um, how do I accelerate my learning and understanding of the organisation, so the ability to listen. Was very key. And to be vulnerable to, to be able to say they, I don't understand. What do you mean? How does this work? You know, not to come and appear as though I know it all, you know, from day one, because that is important in terms of building that foundation with, um, you know, the people that you lead, right? So, so that is, that is very key that investment in, in leaning time, be the sponge just. Absorb and, and understand and, and once you've had a session with anybody, you know, what I've done for me is I had sessions with different portfolios. Um, and, and even in that session I was really asking a lot of questions. But a key thing was for me, starting with not just going straight into the work side of it, the connection with the person, right? So for me that was very important to say, how do I connect? Reach the person before we even go to the, to the, to the core of what is it that they do right. And understanding what is important for, for people at an individual level and'cause that will inform why they're doing what they're doing in the organisation to understand people's patience and peoples that they believe they're fulfilling. So, so that was the, the first step that I needed to do to understand, um, the organisation. What are the. Uh, key drivers because we all talk about moving pieces, right? But what are these pieces, what makes up these different pieces of the organisation so that I can bring it all together and understand the bigger picture of what are the key drivers of, uh, or, or, or, or, you know, drivers of, of success, right? Um, so that is first thing that I invested in. But also even in that, identifying the priorities, right? When you ask someone what is important to you? What is the question of what is your dream? Right? You know, for, for what you're doing. And also, uh, uh, and also for the organisation itself, there, you able to identify the priorities of, of that person. And also that common thread in the questions as well, in terms of what is it that you wanna understand across the business. So I heard some questions that we. That were consistent across the board in terms of what I was asking the team, you know, so, so that was also very key. But then also that, um, going that extra mile in terms of putting that extra time very, very key. Uh, you know, it's like, you know, when you, when the, the, the plane takes off, it takes. A lot more effort and resources when it starts off. But you know that the takeoff time, it takes a lot, but it, I mean, the takeoff phase, right, where I have to invest a lot of time, um, you know, it comes with sacrifices. So, and as a result, it, it also touches on my personal space where I have to measure that even at home. There's understanding, you know, the family understands my husband and kids, that guys I in this spirit is hectic. It's the money of my time. So managing the personal space as well are very key so that you. Yourself room to invest, you know, in whatever it is that you have to invest in. And understanding the systems and processes of organisations, right, that people will tell you what they do and, you know, um, and how it works. But reading through policies and connecting the dots, uh, also helps as well, you know, very, very key for me, obviously, I prove things and what, so it's key that I don't do things from, you know, the blind spot and not understanding exactly what is it that I should be looking at. But even as I'm doing that, I'm identifying. You know, opportunities for us to accelerate and, you know, deal with the low hanging fruits in terms of things that we can improve on as well. Um, you know, as an organisation I'm looking at how do the different pieces connect, but also how do we find opportunities for better internal collaboration? We. I am seeing gaps as well and how to also elevate things that are working great because that balance is very important, right? The whole point of understanding the business is not to find fault, is not to find things that are not working only, but then also to find things that are working well so that we can embrace it and take that forward. So that is with that balance mindset that, um, um, I'm approaching that the, you know, the first few days that, um, I have in the organisation. So in bringing those pieces together, um, also identify, okay, what is the priority for this particular area? Based on the discussions that I've had, how does it link to the priorities?'cause remember we'll have, you know, those a hundred day plans. So I had the a hundred day plans Based on what I've, I've seen, the wonderful thing is that they are integrated reports, which are public documents about, I've gone through their, oh, these are the things that might need to prioritise. Guess what? When you come in, when you understand what matters for your stakeholders, you know, you realise, okay, this, I have to show. Probably this is more of a priority than the other one. So being open and being flexible to, to really readjusting your plan. You know, because your plan at the end of the day, must actually be in the best interest of the organisation. It's not about me, it's about the organisation first. Right? So, so I'm having that in mind and on the stakeholder. Aside, it's, it's really understanding the, the. The importance of the stakeholders and who are the stakeholders. So, so it's been that to say, unpacking who are our key stakeholders and how do they actually feature into our organisation? What impact and influence do they have in the work that we do? And those are the stakeholders that have been prioritizing to engage with them. And again, with the same attitude of absorbing, absorbing, listen, and listen and listen and inviting them with the say you've got permission to, to speak freely. I want to hear you, but also where we have blind spots, I want to hear about those so that we can see how do we best improve. And for me, what's important is, you know, just reaffirming and just letting them know that, um, you know, I want to engage, you know, and let me know how, how can I best engage with you going forward. So those are important that we don't assume that people understand or they know or. They will know how to engage with you going forward. So stakeholder relations have been very, very key to start off with that, you know, at this stage. But even there, it's relationship building. It's, it's from the point of view of not, not approaching it from a transactional point of view. But from a relationship point of view,'cause for me, relationship, uh, are the biggest and largest equity that we have as an organisation, such as Psychem, that we need to embrace, that we need to invest in, you know, and everything else follows, you know, such as anything else in life, right? It starts with relationship and everything else follows. And for me it's really about those, those authentic engagements, you know, with the, with the staff, internally, with our stakeholders externally. Authentic and showing genuine interest. That is very key, but. The biggest checkpoint for me is that with optimism that I have, I'm a very positive person. Um, is it a realistic one? You know, you know, so that I don't have this big aspiration, this big dreams. I'm always going back to reality check. What is our reality? What is, what are the opportunities? You know, um, what, what can we achieve in, at what stage? So, so it's been, it is been that journey of. Being open to learning, um, engaging with the, with the view of wanting to hear more, uh, and, and speaking less to a great degree. But yeah, so that's, that's been the focus so far. I think what I think I draw two takeaways there that are, I think everyone, any professional, no matter what, you know, stage they are at in their career. The two big takeaways for me is what you mentioned, which is around, first of all getting buy-in from your support system so you know your family and your friends. Mm-Hmm. And just if you're gonna have to make sacrifices, whether it be time. Yeah. Whether it be, you know, not being at home or anything like that. Making sure that you've got that buy-in that everyone's aware with. You know, they, they, um, both eyes, what's gonna happen and what's gonna be expected and, and, and holding each other accountable to that. Um, and then another takeaway then is also around the fact that when you do have those initial meetings and you're meeting team members, whether it be senior, um, you know, or at any level, making sure that you prioritise. Finding common ground, finding a commonality just as two people. Um, and then mm-hmm. Going into that, you know, kind of results-driven, focused on the desired outcome from a business point of view. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think, I think that is in invaluable, and I know a lot of people are gonna benefit from that. So if we now move into an area where, you know, we, we hear it in the news, um, you know, we know JSC listed companies have got these boards of directors, and we know that people have a kind of a high-level understanding for the most part from my anecdotal experience. In your experience now, not just at SAICA, I mean you were an a non-executive board member at SAICA. You, you know, previously within your other businesses, you'd also been at that board level. Talk to me about practically what you've seen. Right. And you don't have to point out anything specifically, um, in terms of the organisation, but from what you've seen as being very, very, positive when it comes to how boards operate together, how these boards of directors operate together, as well as what you've seen, um, whether it be directly or through your network of what constitutes a dysfunctional board. Like what, what have you seen in those contrasts of, um, a very well functioning and then a dysfunctional board from your experience as well? I've been actually fortunate to be part of boards that we've very functional, but also had to deal with the very challenging things, you know? At different boards. So, and, and that's experience that I, I value so much.'cause it's, it's really through challenges that you learn the most. Right. Um, yeah. So, so that's it. But I think what I've also learned is even with those boards, what's, what's that? Um, awareness and being conscious of the fact of that there is a very thin line that you, you can. Actually sometimes cross if you're not careful of being operational versus being, you know, um, playing an oversight role. So, so for me that was very key to always really check ourselves on that. And I. You mentioned the psych experience, which is actually wonderful because I can literally have a lived experience of what is it like being on the oversight side and versus being on the ops side. And even when I started here, I said yes, this, despite it being over two years now, you know, even if it was yesterday that I was on the board, don't treat me like I know it all because ops. And oversight governance. It's, it's totally different things. Right. And you know, that's very key. And, and that's a very key starting point that not to, not to confuse the two roles. You know, um, and overstepping into the other functions. It, it's very key, and especially at the board level, being conscious of that. It is, even if something bothers you, you wanted to move, you know, the importance of noticing. I, I, I'll do it, you know, let's, let's do it together. I'll do it for you, or whatever the case is. That is very key as well to. To look at. Um, and then, and, and I mean being on the assurance side, I think I can speak on functional, non-functional board even from that point of view in terms of being exposed to different organisations as an auditor, you know, in terms of what I have, I have seen as well. Um, and, and it really is, it's that issue of, um. You know, boards not applying themselves to understanding the business. And how you start determines, you know, how far you go in your journey and how you finish. And whether it's finishing your term or finishing the financial year or whatever the case is, it's also driven by how you start, right? So investing, I mean, I touched on my journey in terms of investing in understanding. The same thing applies with boards, right? Not to come in and rely on that induction for whatever, whatever hours that you have. Applying yourself, researching, you know, understanding the organisation, going through their previous reports and, and, and, and really having that inquiring mind when, when it starts, whatever, usually what borders you. It could be that something is not right, you know, if something doesn't feel good, usually you find that something, it's actually not good, you know, at that particular point in time. So, so that application of self, that's what I've seen where whereby you engage, you can actually see that actually. Here, people don't understand what's happening in the organisation or how the organisation should be working. Um, so that that initial phase of understanding is very key, but in also not investing in. You know, understanding different functions of the governing structures, right? What I mean by that is, you know, where, where you're a part of, you touched on the listed boards. We know what are the mandatory, um, you know, structures that should be in place and what they should be doing. So how you also. Um, uh, uh, uh, organise yourselves becomes so important because then you'll understand the importance of the diversity, not only the board level, but also at the committee levels, right? So you are allocating roles and responsibilities to the right people, you know, not to disrespect other professions. For example, when it comes to, um, a, a, a risk chairperson or. Audit committee chairperson, you would know, ideally you'll be leaning on, you know, people that are coming from, you know, our profession as an example, you know, to be leading as a chair persons of that, of that portfolio. But also how do you measure that there is diversity of skills, you know, in those committees and different structures, right? So that you elevate. And you, you make sure that you're led by people with the right skills and experience in different portfolios. So, so that's one of the things that I've actually seen to say the drivers of success in, in, in, in that instance. But also the continuous learning, um, investment in learning as well, you know, on an ongoing basis. Um, and the ability to hold your assurance. Um, you know, providers, uh, you know, accountable. What I mean by assurance providers are different role players, right? Whether it's auditors. Whether it is management themselves or. Or maybe even external assurance provider, depending on the type of organisation that you are. So those are the kind of things that I've seen.'cause you can never lead, I always say you can never lead or assure what you are not sure of. You know, you can, because if you're not sure about something, you don't even know what to ask, what you expect of the other person, right? So, so that's what that investment in learning becomes very key. Um, and, and hence for me, even my journey has been that if, you know, I, I, I always said. It's my thing. I, I love it. I'm passionate about it. And, and it's an enabler as well, you know, if you don't continuously learn, but relevance of learning becomes key as well. Right? Because I can enroll in a course and, you know, I can, um, I almost said cooking, but cooking is relevant 'cause I love cooking. So, so I can, I'm more than happy to enroll in the thinking course at any time. But if I was to enroll in. Maybe any other cause that's not relevant in terms of what I want to do. You know, how is it gonna save, uh, you know, um, whatever environment that I'm in or the organisation that I'm responsible for. So, so the investment in learning has to find its relevance and has to find its its place for application, um, as well. So, so that's, those are one of the things that, um, I have seen as well with boards that, you know, you find people that do not apply themselves coming to meetings where. Way by you can actually clearly see that this person has not gone through the PEC. Like why are you asking me something that's there in the PEC? It's, it's there, you know, so, so the heads I'm saying, but I was fortunate to be part of boards where, you know, the board members with Sarah, they were apply themselves, but on the audit side, especially. Having done audit in different sectors, even in the, in the public sector for that matter, where you will see that, oh, oh, you know, the application itself, it's missing in, in to a great degree. So, so yeah. Uh, it's really that, that level of commitment that I. I would say it's a key, key ingredient that you know you must treat the organisation that you're leading as a board member, as if it's your own it, you know, your own business. You must treat it like if you're an entrepreneur, you've invested money into that business. You know, what would you like, what practices you would like to see so that you can determine what kind of routine you're gonna have at the end of the day. You know, if you treat it like it's an organisation that, well, even if you are not an a, a shareholder, you're not the founder, but if you're the man in the street, that whatever it is that the organisation does affect you. What kind of experience do you want to see, you know, what kind of impact you want to get from that organisation, and that speaks, speaks with that social responsibility, you know, um, uh, check or, uh, aspect of it. So, so, so yeah, the, the level of selflessness becomes so key that you, you, you enter that it's not about you. So for me, that was the biggest test. Say, why am I here? The biggest was it's not about the fee, it's not about, you know, to a, to an extent where if I see that the organisation is, is in need, I'll, I'll be happy to say, look, if you don't have to pay me for this one, it's fine. You know, I started off from volunteering for that major grant when it comes to boards, I started off, you know, with an organisation, it was, uh, called Ripple Reading at the time, where, I mean, the objective was for us to advance reading. In the community, especially in the underprivileged communities.'cause it was really about purples and I had to really apply the people's test, you know, in every board, even the paying boards to say, why am I here? Because that will actually determine my attitude towards the organisation. The investment in which I bring, not for the money, but for the impact and the definition of what does impact look like. My purpose there, does it align to the organisation's purpose? Because if my purpose doesn't align, it means that I'm not saving that organisation in the way that it should be. You know? And those are the things that I always encourage, you know, board members to, to look at as what Saying if, if it's not aligned, the best thing you could do is to move away, you know? Uh, or if, if, if your circumstances change or you can't invest. The time that you need to invest, the best that you must do is to move away because you need to save the organisation the best way you can. You know? Yeah. So it's a principle thing. Practically speaking, a lot of the times people think that boards are running the day-to-Day, but it's only a couple of role players that are running it, like the CEO and the CFO that report to the board. Yeah. But for me, I think what you've just shared there is really around the fact that even though non-executives as an example, um, are meeting maybe four times a year, they still have an opportunity to engage with the CEO maybe outside of that, to ask them more questions, to understand a bit more about their Absolutely. Like you say, with the learning, learning aspect. Mm-Hmm. Um, but then in those sessions. They're able then to truly provide some guidance, advice, advice in the, in the context where now the CEO or CFO or any leadership person that is reporting to the board is in a position where they've gained a new perspective. They can go back to the drawing board, chat to their team, and then come back again, you know, say three months later. So I definitely agree with you. Absolutely. That experience. And I think, you know, Patricia lastly, before we, before we go. For me, the, the priority. Now, going forward, I say I would think for most organisations, because we've had enough, in my view, we've had enough years to demonstrate how important diversity of thinking, backgrounds, cultures are in getting the most out of an organisation, which ultimately means getting the most out of teams and those individuals within them. For you, what have you found to be a really critical. Component in ensuring any organisation can prioritise, um, embracing diversity within their businesses. Because I think, again, at a surface level narrative, people go on diversity of color and gender, but it's, in my experience, it's far deeper than that. Right. That's one aspect of it. That's it in terms of backgrounds, cultures, beliefs, and so on. So for you, what would you say is a priority that organisations need to focus on to ensure that they, they don't lose out on this incredible, um, you know, opportunity to bring everyone from all different backgrounds into it. That's, that's a great question and that speaks to my heart, definitely.'cause, uh, I'm also an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I always say to people when we talk about transformation in the South African context, we have to pause and think, what does it mean? When we talk about transformation, especially with the forward, when we look at future outlook in terms of what does the future look like, uh, for us when we dream about the South Africa that we want to see? Right? And that speaks to that diversity. And not only about race, right? Even, um, you know, with. Gender diversity. Very, very important. Strong advocate for that. And even that gender diversity doesn't mean that, is it really about empowering women only? What about boys? Right. And, and I will say that as a mother of a daughter and three boys, and I see the importance of how we need to also invest in our boys, right? Um. And even men themselves, because these are men, we also want to empower even us as women, right? So, so, so that, that diversity in terms of where we invest and and whom we invest in, it's very important that we get that balance right on a continuous basis. As much as I'm a strong advocate for empowering women. I believe that it should not be with the, with the view or the approach of living out men, right? Because we have to walk this journey, you know, together and not to forget about the boy child, um, as well. And, and, and also the diversity with respects, with, with respect to, to, um, age, right? We live in a multi-generational, uh, uh, era, and that's a question we're actually talking about, interesting enough to say, how do we ensure that our solutions are balanced with respect to addressing the needs of different generations? Right. We, we talk about a lot of changes. We talk about ai, we talk about all these things, but whatever we do, how is it that we are mindful of the fact that different generations have got different needs despite the mega trends that we always talk about? The needs of individuals are still very different, you know, so that level of awareness, it's very, very key when we look at, when we look about diversity and even the cultural diversity. Right culture. Not only because of, you know, you, you, you, you come from a different tribe or that tribe or of different race group and so forth. But the culture of how are we socialised as people, right? Coming from different backgrounds, how do we find. You know, the best practices that work for our organisations, and that speaks to understanding our people and, and, and also giving people permission to act freely. Right? And, and that speaks to the psychological safety of any environment. You know, it's easy for for us to talk about the open door policy, but how does what, what does the open door look like? It's not a physical doorway. People can walk into my office. It's that door of the environment. It's giving me permission to be who I am and also to speak my mind, also to share, you know, my views also to bring forward my suggestions and find learning or or opportunities for us to grow that I can talk about freely in an environment. Without feeling judged, without, you know, um, thinking that there are certain things that are reserved for certain positions that really speaks for me to, when we say the open door, the door of the mind, are we allowing the mind to speak the door of the mouth? Do you allow the mouth, you know, someone to speak freely in your environment? That. That's what open Door means to me. So, so, and, and, and really that diversity, the question around diversity, very, very broad. South Africa, we have a journey, uh, to, to go through transformation for me is, are you able to create opportunities for people to grow, for people to utilise the skills and, and strength and give. To the best of their ability in order to attain excellence in, in, in, in whatever it is that they do. Yeah. Right. That's, that's really transformation to elevate a person. So we cannot attain transformation when we are not aspiring for diversity when we are not aspiring for equity and inclusion. I know there's a big global focus on that, but even in South Africa. Our checkpoint is when we say we are driving transformation, are we inclusive in everything that we do? Are we embracing diversity and equity? So that for me, that's very key and that's very important. So, yeah. Brilliant. Well, I think, again, one takeaway there was, I love your phrase or you're saying around, you know, the open door policy of the mind and of the mouth. I think that's such a great, a great way to think about it. Patricia, thank you very, very much for your time. I know a lot of professionals are gonna find tremendous value that they can actually take into their lives, both personally and professionally. So thank you for always being so open to giving and, um, I genuinely wish you the absolute best in this next chapter because I think SAICA is lucky to have you and us as members. I can, I can say from my side as a member, I'm really, really looking forward to seeing what contribution you make as well as of course, what, we can do as members as well to be actively involved. So thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate this opportunity to engage with you. You know, with that African proverb says, if you want to go far, go together and, and thank you so much for, for this opportunity to, to go. The next step with you for working the journey with you, together with you and I thank you so much keeping being African.