CANDID
Every month, Grant Greeff shares his professional learnings, experiences, and ideas about business, leadership & culture through a South African lens.
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CANDID
14. Professional Learnings from the Retail Architect of Pick n Pay & UNIQ Clothing by Checkers | Michael Coles
In this episode of CANDID, Michael Coles, a veteran in the retail industry with over 40 years of experience, shares his journey of building monumental brands like Pick n Pay Clothing and UNIQ for the Shoprite Checkers Group.
From his early career shifts, teaching moments at Woolworths, and strategic decisions at Pick n Pay, to launching a new retail brand during the challenging times of COVID-19, Michael provides an in-depth look into the decisions and philosophies that shaped his successful career. Key discussions include the importance of doing one's job to the best of their ability, the significance of assembling the right team, the power of making fast decisions and learning from failures, and insights on how to build a business within a business.
This conversation provides valuable lessons for aspiring professionals and those seeking to understand the foundations of building a successful career in retail.
00:00 Welcome & Intro to Michael Coles
01:17 From Economics to Retail: The Journey Begins
02:06 Discovering a Destiny in Retail with Woolworths
03:41 Exploring the World and Finding a Path Back to Retail
04:40 The Pick n Pay Era: Building a Clothing Empire
05:19 Retirement and Beyond: The UNIQ Brand and Reflections on Startups
08:01 Passion, Curiosity, and the Path to Professional Fulfillment
11:43 The Importance of Doing Your Best in Every Role
14:55 Training and Development: The Woolworths Way
22:54 Building a Business Within a Business: Insights from Pick n Pay
25:57 Building a Business with the Right People
27:07 The Power of a Well-Founded Business
27:47 Innovation and Risk-Taking in Retail
28:22 Leadership and Team Dynamics
30:29 The Challenge of Unlearning and Adaptability
33:15 Personal Coaching and Employee Development
37:36 Decision-Making and Learning from Failures
38:49 Strategic Moves: From Retirement to Revitalising Retail Giants
43:37 Simplifying Choices for Consumers
46:18 Final Thoughts: Career Advice and Self-Reflection
In this episode of CANDID, under the format of professional conversations, I'm joined by Michael Coles, the man who built Pick n Pay clothing for over 24 years, as well as now busy with building of UNIQ, which is part of the Shoprite Checkers group. So Michael has an immense amount of business knowledge, and this session is really focused on asking him what decisions were critical throughout his professional career of more than 40 years within the retail industry, and where it all started, which isn't on his LinkedIn CV. So I hope that you'll enjoy this and apply the insights that Michael shares to your professional career as well. if we jump straight into just a highlight reel of where you've spent your time over the last couple of decades. From how I've looked at it now on LinkedIn, you've, you've shared that you spent around 25 years at Pick n Pay, being the head of the clothing division there. And then you went into, uh, Woolies for about three years, and now you're currently serving at Checkers and building their UNIQ clothing brand. But what happened before Pick n Pay, because that's not on your LinkedIn profile. So can you maybe highlight a bit about that?
Michael Coles:Okay, so I'm Cape Town, born and bred. I went to university at UCT, studied economics. I did an honors degree in economics, and at the time felt I should do something in the field of economics because, so I ended up working for a company called Mobile. Now you mentioned earlier, decades in this business, and it sounds like a long, but it is literally decades. I've been, I've been in the, in the retail game for about four decades now. Uh, my start. So, so I started working at, uh, at a company called Mobile. I dunno if you know it, it's, uh, became Engine. And that, that I just knew wasn't for me, where even when I was at university, I was always, I, I wouldn't say I was into clothing in the sense of being the best dressed, but I just liked clothing and I always felt I should get into the, into the rag trade in some way. And I responded to an ad in the paper to join Woolworths as a merchandiser. I think this was sometime late seventies, joined them. And the minute I joined Woolworths, I realized that this is what I was born to do. Where when you say born to do, you know, it's sometimes, it takes a while to actually understand what it is you wanna do in life. You don't always get that, uh, um. Uh, spark early on in your life. Some people are lucky enough to do it, but, but I didn't. And, but, but I joined Woolworths and I realized that being in the Greg trade was what I was, uh, that was, that was my destiny. And I spent 10 years there learning everything I knew about retail. Uh, it was, as I said, at the feet of Masters. There were, um, at the time, Woolworths was the premier retailing organization in, in, in South Africa. There were. A number of great retailers that came through that organization, in fact went on to, to, to be with, uh, the tours of the world, the mr prices of the world, et cetera, et cetera. It was really a, a learning ground, um, a a kind of leadership, uh, course for almost all retailers at the time. It was known for, its for how well they trained people, so. Um, so I worked there for, for a long time and learned everything I knew about retail. I made quite a good of good, good progress there. Uh, and then at the time, um, around mid eighties, South Africa was going through quite a lot of upheaval and, and, and my wife and I decided to, uh, try something else. We went to, um, live in London for a while. I worked for a small retail company there called Top Shop. I dunno if you know the, if you know it,
Grant Greeff:Yeah, I mean, they, they still are, um, still operating today.
Michael Coles:they still are around, uh, they are not, uh, where they used to be in, you know, the retail, I'll talk about this maybe if you, if we get to it, but retail around the world is changing quite dramatically. The, the brands that were really hot 20, 30 years ago, like the Gap, Abercrombie and Fitch, uh, top Shop, top Man, these brands seem to have disappeared and, uh. And, and struggling to, to, to make new traction. So, um, I was working for one of them and decided that living in London wasn't for me. Came back to South Africa, uh, joined a small manufacturing company that was supplying, uh, uh, ladies linger to, to Woolworths. I worked there for a few years. And then a big break came when I got a call from a head hunter saying they were looking for someone to head up the clothing business at Pick n Pay, which at the time was a small business. It was sold, uh, clothing was only sold in Hypermarkets, but they really felt that there could be, could, uh, more could be done with the brand. Um, so I started there, uh, in the mid nineties, 1995. Uh, I was there, as you said, for just under 25 years. Took the brand from literally nothing to, by the time I left, we'd opened 200 clothing stores, uh, standalone clothing stores. And, um, and that's basically when I retired, I actually, you know, company, big companies these days, you have to retire at a certain age. They, they have, uh, succession, uh, commitments that they make to their shareholders and, uh, and are retired and. I was I in retirement, uh, always heard I was in retirement. They called me back in there to assist them through the covid, uh, transition. There was, it was quite a struggle, uh, during, um, at Covid time, uh, I assisted them for three years I was there. Uh, and while at it, towards the end of my, uh, tenure there, um, I started talking to Peter Engelberg at, uh, Shoprite to start a clothing business because it was a one. Area of retail that they were not, uh, represented. And we started the, the UNIQ brand two years ago. And, and, uh, that's where we are now. Um, it's been two years. It's been a very successful, uh, brand launch. Um, and, and it's got a great future. So I've been involved in one two. Three startups. Actually the other startup that you don't know about is while I was at Woolworths, I actually, um, Woolworths bought, uh, the macro brand, I dunno if you know it, it became part of Massmart.
Grant Greeff:Yes,
Michael Coles:so, so, so there's a bit of history there. Pardon? It.
Grant Greeff:In the seventies when, when Woolies
Michael Coles:this was in, this was in the, this was in the early eighties.
Grant Greeff:Okay. Okay.
Michael Coles:When companies who were divesting outta South Africa, uh, macro was a Dutch owned company, they, um, were divesting and they had six big, uh, what they're called, uh, macro stores, which are really big, uh, hyper market type, uh, stores. And, uh, we always bought them, uh, six of them. And while, while I was at Woolworths, I was seconded to them to start the clothing business at the macro uh, stores. And I started a brand there called Legend, which I believe is still going today. So that was my first, that was my first startup Pick n Pay clothing was my second signup in our macro, uh, at Shoprite, the UNIQ brand in our third startup. So I've been involved in quite a. So that's a very, uh, long-winded brief history of, of my career today.
Grant Greeff:That's perfect. And I think I wanna, I wanna unpack a few, a few topics that you shared there. So, so the one is. I've learned that a lot of the time we communicate to everyone that we need to follow our passion, assuming that everyone actually knows what their passion is. And there's almost, in my experience, there's like this pressure for someone to know what their passion is. Because, you know, you can see Michael, he's, he's now doing, um, his particular, you know, passion now within the clothing, within the fashion side of things. He loves building, he loves, you know, directing and, and I think. People get quite nervous, um, and anxious if they don't have that passion. So what do you think about this perspective where it's less about us trying to find our passion right now, no matter what stage we are within our professional careers, but more about being very curious and as a consequence of being curious and exploring that is a consequence of that. You then are um. Doing things and being exposed to different environments. And from that, from doing, then you actually build up a passion for say, you know, clothing in this case. I mean, what's your view on that? Um, perspective.
Michael Coles:Well, look, I, I I always I always enjoyed clothing, uh, and I enjoyed the hustle and bustle of retail buying and selling, you know, at a very young age. In a retail environment, you get exposed to the world of business. You're making decisions of buying and selling product. At a price, uh, at a cost, selling it at a price, making a profit. You get exposed to the world of commerce quite, quite young. And if you like the world of commerce, which let's, let's, let's not talk about clothing for now. It could have been foods. Uh, if you like the world of commerce, which is, uh, buying and selling goods and, and making a profit, and you do your job as well as you can, you will find a niche where you yourself could love it. So. Uh, and, and, and retailers got so many different components to it. I happen to be, uh, uh, in the, in the clothing game because I happen to like clothing, but there's homeware, there's electronics, there's food, there's hardware, uh, there are all sorts of areas where, um. Where customers need products. And if you can find a niche that says, well, I'm gonna buy this garment at, or this product at this price, sell it at that product.'cause priced because I know that customers want it. Um, you, you could, you could, you could do well. So I, I think the, the key is to find what it is people like and what it is that you can do to deliver what they like in such a way that they pay you well for it. Now that sounds a bit, uh, quite broad. Um, because sometimes you can't always get exactly what your passion is. I mean, your pa your passion may be music, but you, but unless you're really good, you're not gonna make a living outta music or painting. Uh, you know, so there could be passions that you have that are not related to commerce and you may or may not make a living outta it. But if you can marry your passion with commerce, with customers. With a, an understanding of our business works, then you've got the best of, of both, of all worlds, actually. Um, now, I, I dunno if I quite responded to, to your, to your, uh, to your, to your question because as I, as I said, may, may own name, not necessarily be a passion that you follow, but it is something that you love to do, um, that, that, and, and, and in the doing. Uh, you, you become good at what you do. And by, by being good at what you do, you, you, you enjoy what you're doing more. So it's, it's in the doing. I, I always used to say to people, you know, even when I, when I, when I worked in all my careers, uh, people would come up to me and say to me, how can I get to where you are? And I used to always say to them, well, whatever you doing, whether it's making tea, whether it's, uh, sweeping the floor, whether it's. Serving customers on the shop floor, which is quite a mundane job. Just do it to the best of your ability, um, and, and don't expect that the next job is the one that's meant, meant for you, because sometimes it's not. Sometimes life takes you in directions that you don't quite, uh, perceive when you are in the moment. But, but things happen. If you, and if you are doing your job to the best of your ability, uh, things will come to you. That you can't dream of, uh, when you, when you in it. And, and that, that has always been my advice to, to, to young people who wanna kind of look up to me and say, well, how can I be what you are? And I say, just do your job to the best of your ability. I, I loved what I was doing'cause I thought I'm gonna do this job no matter what it is to the best of my ability. When I started at Woolworths, for example, um, every morning we had to be there at six o'clock at, at uh, the Adley Street store. And we had to unpack trucks. Loads and loads truckloads of bread. And I always made sure that I packed the bread in the best way I could according to the, the, the, the rule. You know, I didn't alway, I didn't think to myself at the time, I'm just doing this temporarily because they want to, uh, uh, get me, um, aligned with the company's values, et cetera. For a future job, I'm gonna do this job to the best of my ability. And I got noticed even then. So. I, I think that, that if I, there's one thing I can say to young people is whatever you're doing, just do it to the best of your ability.'cause that's how you're gonna enjoy yourself and that's how you're gonna get noticed. And, and no matter what it is, it can be, it can be a mundane job. Just do it to the best of your ability.
Grant Greeff:It
Michael Coles:Now, I dunno I dunno if that helps you to.
Grant Greeff:Yeah, ab, absolutely. So, so it reminds me of an anecdote shared by, um, I think it was someone in the American military where he spoke about the principle of just making your bed in the morning to just, to just start your day off, making your bed, having that level of discipline for something so mundane, so, um, repetitive, uh, but, but that discipline over time is compounding. Um, and that, uh. Exposes you then to other opportunities just as a consequence of you paying attention, um, and taking pride in what you do. So, yeah, I, I think it's a, it's a great experience. Share from your side and Michael, if we Yeah.
Michael Coles:There, there is a fa, there is a, I think there's a famous YouTube clip of a, of an Army general making a, having a conversation to the troops about how you're gonna be the best troop. And I think the starting point for all of them is the first thing you do in the morning is make your bed because that is one task completed, and then you move to the next task and you complete that task and to the next task and so on, and so and so on. So, yeah, I.
Grant Greeff:So, So, if we, if we actually. Refer back to the first time that you were at Woolworths, because you spoke about it being a training ground and you spoke about, you know, from a leadership point of view, the technical side, and a lot of people came from that, uh, let's call it that chapter, and have gone on to, to, to do incredible things across the retail industry. You know, it reminds me of the PayPal Mafia around Elon Musk and, and Peter Thiel, and everyone where they, there was a particular training ground that they all, um, you know, went through. And as a consequence, they, of course went into their own ventures and did very, very well. Now, what I wanna pay attention to here is who were the people, or who was the person that enabled that environment for you all to actually have a such a training ground that was so fruitful.
Michael Coles:Um, and you mean specifically in the, of Woolworths?
Grant Greeff:So, yeah. So you, you spoke about the team at Woolies. Um, you know, you really were in a place where all of you trained well from a leadership point of view. So what was it about that environment? At Woolworths back then that allowed you to get that leadership training and that technical training to the extent that it did, where so many people from that, that chapter, uh, did on, uh, uh, went on to do great things.
Michael Coles:Okay. Um, it, it's a little known fact. Uh, in fact, it might not be so little known, but during the fifties sometime, uh, Woolworths developed a very close relationship with Marks and Spencer in the uk. And Marks and Spencer at the time was the leading retail organization, not only in the UK but probably in the world. They innovated and they did most of the good things, uh, that a lot of other retailers followed on from subsequently. And, uh, through this tie up who was adopted, many of the, uh, philosophies and policies and ways of working that Marks and Spencers had developed. Um, retail at the time was, was an honorable, uh, profession, you know, I dunno if it stole that today, but at that time, retail really was an honorable profession. If you could get a job at Marks and Spencer's, you were kind of made for life. And I think the same applied to Woolworths. Woolworths, uh, in the sixties and seventies was a place you wanted to go to work, to learn how to run and be a businessman. And what, what Woolworth did, what they, they developed training programs where you were mentored as a, as a young man or young woman. You were mentored when you came to the company by a person with experience and that, and you, and you stuck with that person for six months to a year, and they taught you everything they knew that they'd learned from a previous, uh, mentor. They taught you everything you knew about, uh, to, to know, uh, about retail and all the metrics that, that, that is important in retail stock turn, uh, uh, margins, margin management, uh, how to grow sales, how to innovate. All these, uh, uh, uh, retail metrics were part and parcel of the way wools, uh, did business. And of course, they became the premier retailer in the seventies. Uh. Sixties in the seventies, and a lot of other retailers started looking at, uh, Woolworths success and started thinking, well, hold on. We can be like that, but we have to bring in some of those Woolworths people. So the more Woolworths trained, the more people got poached. So, so they just kept, kept on training. It was almost like for every person doing a job, there was someone next door to that person being trained. So it was, it was a philosophy. It was a way of working and a way of thinking that, that, uh, that, that wools imbued the company with. They decided we need good people. We are gonna take them from an early age and we are going to teach them from scratch. It's gonna become the University of retail. We are gonna teach people how to be retailers. And that's what they did. It was there, it was just part and parcel of their, uh, way of working. Um. I, I don't know how much of it still remains. I, I, I, I, I think not too much. I think there's a lot of poaching going on today around retailers putting people from other retailers who they think are good and lot, there's, there's a lot of movement, uh, in retail. But in the, in the, in the old days at, at Woolworths, you kind of, if you were good, you stayed there and you just kept on, uh, working in the company, uh, literally for life. So it was, it was, um, it was, it was just part of the fabric of the business that they had a training and a development philosophy to bring young people into the business and train them and make them good retailers.
Grant Greeff:It's
Michael Coles:it wasn't one specific person, it was more just the philosophy of the business was to train people and train them well.
Grant Greeff:It's so simple, but it actually. Makes it so exceptional where you invest so significantly and so intentionally within such a buddy system and such a, a systemized way for people to not get left behind and for people to really, uh. Reach the potential that maybe they're not even aware of. Um, you know, when, when joining. So I think again, it's just a reminder to all businesses and even just if you're in a, in a team, and it doesn't matter how big that team is to not take for granted that, um, onboarding experience for every single new employee because. I think, uh, yeah, from my experience and from my network of, of, of, of friends within the, a varying degree of, of industries, the onboarding side is still not as as great as you would think it would be, even though the data's there. People know that it, that it's effective. And I think it just shows you perhaps some of the, and I'm, I'm an accountant on my side, but I mean, you know, when you just apply a numbers game to this and you, and you don't realize the, the, the true qualitative aspect of it, it, it kind of, um, you know, leaves it in, um, in the rear view mirror. So again, just a nice reminder that we have to take it very seriously as evident of what's happened with Willies. And I know there's a lot of other businesses that do ha do have it as well.
Michael Coles:Yeah. You see, I, I think, I think what happens is, is, um, people, you can measure the extra staff required when you've got a good training program in place, whereas you don't, you aren't able to measure the benefit, the downstream benefit. So it's almost like there's a short term cost for a long term benefit and a lot of, and when and when companies are. When times are hard and they have to cut costs, kind of the first things that go are, well, the trading program. Do we need so many trainees? Uh, and, and, and, and, and you, you only feel the, the, the cost of that decision five, 10 years down the track, you know? So, uh. Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of having a long term philosophy about if you train people well, you're gonna have good people in your business and your business is gonna thrive. Uh, and, and, and the other thing about training people well is you view them with the culture of the business so you can carry the culture of the business through, um, multiple generations of people, uh, intact. Because I, I, I find one of the things that goes, the minute people start moving around a business, the culture sort of dissipates it. You don't quite know who you are in the end,
Grant Greeff:Fully agree with that and if. This, this experience that you've gained in moving from one organization like Woolies and moving then to Pick n Pay and building a business within a business basically. For, for you, what would you say is a key learning there? Because I think there's a lot of people talking now about in entrepreneurship, especially within that corporate space, encouraging people to innovate and build within the business. You know, have a entrepreneurial mindset, uh, versus just, you know, of course. Going off and being an entrepreneur by yourself. For you, what is that type of learning from? I mean, literally, you know, just over two decades at Pick n Pay, building a business within a big business. Uh, what was that type of experience that, that, you know, the, the nuggets that you gained along the way?
Michael Coles:Okay, so so going, going to Pick n Pay. Um, and having had all that experience of, of, uh, Woolworths behind me, um, there, there were a couple of things. So firstly, there are, in, in retail there are, there are certain metrics that you have to be mindful of. You can't. Ignore margins. You can't ignore sales, you can't ignore stock turn, you can't. So all those metrics are things that you run your business by, and this is how you measure your, uh, let's call it technical success. Um, but what was more important for me was to, in building a brand, I had to have people who understood the brand and that were able to make the decisions that were going to push the brand forward. So. When I started at, uh, at pick and play, there were, there was, it was a small team, and in order to bol the team, I had to bring in people from outside. And the danger with that, and I only found that out in retro in retrospect, was that people from outside came with their ideas that they'd learn at companies that were, that they'd worked at before. And it, it started tearing apart the culture that I was trying to build. And the, and the, and the. The way I wanted to run the business because it was a continuous, um, uh, it was continuously conflicting that someone would come from say, retailer y and say, look, we, we used to do it like this at retailer Y, and then I'd get someone else from Retailer X and they'd say, we did it like this at retailer X, and before you knew it, you had conflict. And I realized very early on that in order to develop a strategy and a philosophy and a culture, uh, of, of excellence, of whatever it was I wanted to achieve, I had to bring people in from the ground floor up. And I made it a policy of bringing in youngsters, uh, straight from their secondary education or their, or their tertiary education and. Letting them learn the ropes of the business for six months. Even paying them a small kind of, uh, uh, school fee of, of sorts, just so that they could learn the business a bit and we could learn about them a bit. And at the end of that period, we would say, right, we think you're a fit. We can hire you or we think you're not a fit. And, uh, the contract was, was, was terminated. And in this way we, we, we built the business with a great bunch of people that were with the program, that understood the culture, that understood what had to be done, and were willing and hardworking to make it happen. And I think that that was, I think the, the, the single biggest lesson that I was able to apply. Uh, in, in a, in a startup career, was getting the right people in place who understood exactly what was required and were able to do it. And of course, your job then as a leader, uh, is a, is is almost like conducting an orchestra. You don't really have to make every decision any longer, but you've got people in place who are, who are, uh, um, trained and willing and, and and motivated to make the decisions. Uh, that are required because in retail you're making a hundred decisions every day. You know, you can't be on top of every single decision. And, and it worked. It, uh, it really worked for, for a long time and I, I think the company's still growing and it's still doing well. And, uh, that's testament to a business that was, that, uh, has been well founded and, and the foundational basis of the business is good, which allows it to keep on growing in a positive way. You know, things didn't fall apart after I, I, I retired. They kept on going. So, uh, and, and, and I think it's largely'cause of procedures, structures, and people that we put in place that, that was, I think, probably the single biggest lesson that I was able to, uh, apply to the, to the business. Of course. Things like innovation, you've always gotta be innovating in, in retail, you've always gotta be taking risks. You've always gotta be moving retail forward.'cause, uh, nothing stands still. Uh, if you're not, if you're not taking the business forward, unfortunately someone else is taking their business forward and you're going backwards. So you, you've gotta keep taking the business forward. So you're juggling a lot of balls. And the one common denominator is having the right people in place so that if ball falls, they catch it. They toss the right, you know, it just works, uh, with that combination of factors.
Grant Greeff:I love the analogy with the conductor because, um, you know, in my, in my previous company, I shared with the team how. As a conductor, and if you are in a leadership role, then as a conductor, your back is actually facing the audience, IE the customer. And you're actually just focused on your team, uh, on the musicians and them, and, and, and those musicians are actually the ones facing the, the audience and actually serving. The customer, they're serving the audience. So you just, if you are in a leadership role, um, or at a level where you have to, you know, manage and lead an entire organization, you just have to focus on your people and, and, and trust in making sure that if they've got the right environment there, they're gonna thrive and they're gonna serve the customer to the best of their ability. So I definitely agree with you on that analogy.
Michael Coles:Look at, at, at one, at we were, we were, we were spinning like a finely tuned top, you know? And, and, and it was a question of, uh, of fine tuning decisions to optimize them. But everyone was doing their job to perfection. And, and, and, and it made my job easy because, uh, as I say, I was, I was simply conducting a massive orchestra of decision making. Um.
Grant Greeff:And, and also another takeaway here, Michael, is around the fact that. You have to exert your energy in certain places, in certain areas, within a team, within an organization. And, and I think what, how you describe in, um, employing people from other organizations where they were fixated on how they used to do things, the level of energy that you, I can assume that you have to exert just to maintain that, that conflict or to try your best to resolve it. Versus reallocating that energy into young, you know, aspiring professionals in, in, in retail. It's just a far better use or utilization of your energy in terms of, as you say, um, building a far more cohesive, far more collaborative and, and, and united culture. So, uh, it's definitely a takeaway that, that I'm gonna look to apply in, in my career as well. So thanks for sharing that.
Michael Coles:Yeah, look, someone could come from another organization with 15 years experience, but they've got 15 years of experience in doing something in a certain way. When they come to. My organization or whoever's organization, they've gotta unlearn. Unless it's a, unless it's a completely transferable skill, like, uh, like a goalkeeper for a soccer team, you know, there, you don't have to unlearn a person how to be a goalkeeper, you just slots into a new team. So transfer transferability of staff is, is highly coveted. Uh. Uh, and you can see it. Um, but, but where, but in such certain organizations, transferability of, of skills isn't, uh, usually the best way of, of, of, of making use of people. and and I'm just talking from my experience. As I say, it doesn't apply to everything.
Grant Greeff:It also, it also kind of links to the fact that, I can't recall the, the title or the, or the publisher of the article, but they spoke about how necessary today is around us needing to unlearn the ability for you to be able to unlearn. And I think if I were to put that in, in, in my own words, I think for me it's. Are you coachable? Are you coachable or not? You know, are you going to come there with a student mindset and, and even though you po perhaps say have got 5, 10, 15 years of experience within your field, are you going to be receptive to, to other ideas and be that, that, that student,'cause at the end of the day, doesn't matter what age we are, we, we can be a student, we can practice on a day-to-day basis to learn more. But in saying that, yeah, we do need to be able to, uh, to unlearn a lot of the things that we thought may have been right at that point in time.
Michael Coles:And that's the hard part because you've gotta unlearn. Your whole ego is, uh, wrapped up in the way you've done a partic job in a particular way for 15 years or 10 years or whatever. And two, unlearn it and learn a new way. Means letting go of quite a bit of ego and uh, and that's probably the harder part, you know.
Grant Greeff:So actually turning that, you know, maybe, uh, looking at the inverse of that. If we were to put ourselves now in your position or in that leadership position now where you're, when you, when you have, uh, team members now that are part of the team and they are gonna need to unlearn certain things. How do you approach that? How, if, you know, if I were to say, Michael, you're in charge of this business now, or I mean, even UNIQ clothing now, how do you take people along? Um, you know, the, the path to, to really being open-minded and, and, and learning new and, and, and unlearning what they thought was perfect back then.
Michael Coles:Yeah, I guess that's where coaching comes into it. Uh, but it's, but it's personal, uh, coaching. It's not just, you know, you've gotta spend time. That's where you gotta spend time with people and explain to them why you're doing the way you're doing things and, and give them and, and spend time with them. You know, don't, you know the, the easy, the easy, uh, uh, uh, way to do it or the, the, the short term gain way of doing it is you just say, listen, this is how I want it done. Just please follow my instructions, but they won't get it. And come, come in a, in a week's time, you're gonna be faced with the same position again and. So you, you've gotta spend time. You've gotta spend time, uh, explaining what it is you are expecting, how are you expecting it to be done? And just continuously spending time with people. That's the only way. And, and you'll learn quite quickly as a coach, how much more time is this person coachable? Is, is it possible that this person will make the change? Can you see a glimmer, uh. If not, you may have to have a different conversation. But if the answer's yes, I think this person, person is coachable, you've gotta give yourself a timeline and just work very closely with whoever it is to make sure that, uh, they get what it is you are, uh, expecting and that they start understanding it. Because I think any business must be rooted in some kind of logic. They can't just, it can't just be a randomly. A, a random process. There must be logic behind what, what, what decisions are expected. And if you can, if you can understand the logic yourself, because sometimes you've learned to Jo how to do a job, but you don't quite understand deeply what the logic is behind what that is all about. Um. Uh, uh, I mean, for example, even just the, the, the training program that, that, uh, that wool was had, there was a logic behind it. The logic being that if we train people, well, we will have a future, um, stream of well trained staff. So there's a logic now, I think in every decision making process, there should be some or other logic that, that defines the process and is through that you are able to, um. Uh, train someone and, and help them to see the logic of your approach. What sometimes does happen is your logic may not be 100%, and sometimes someone is able to say to you, hold on a second. If we can approach this logically, then have you look at it this way around, and then you yourself may have to change your mind about things. Uh, it's a, it's a famous expression. When the facts change, I change my mind. Uh, what do you do? So, so, so sometimes you just have to, um, make sure that, that everyone is, that everything you're doing is rooted in the kind of logic that is coachable. Uh, and I, and I think that, that then people get it for themselves. So.
Grant Greeff:It reminds me of, of, of the, of a mindset or of an approach to anything in business in my view, which is, which is like building, um, a hypothesis, like kind of, you know, this is what we think is gonna happen, this is why we think it, it'll happen. This is what we're gonna need. Um, and kind of taking that experimentation approach to this whereby. You, you, you're, you're seeking to be disproven in terms of the hypothesis to make sure that you are, um, obtaining the most relevant and useful and timely facts about, you know, the position that you're in. So for me, I absolutely agree with that. Where. People. Yeah. I mean, you, you can't just let emotion drive decisions. And as you've probably experienced as I, and many people watching or listening have experienced the, the people that just drive with pure emotion as, as the baseline of their decision making, it just creates so much, um, miscommunication, confusion, lack of clarity. So I think, uh, that for me has, has been a big one. Respecting or kind of, um, trying to follow the people that I know that there's far more of a cognitive first than, than just an, um, a feeling that they, that, that they're going with.
Michael Coles:Yeah, and sometimes you've got to make decisions. Quickly only to learn fast, you know, uh, uh, uh, it's better to make a decision, fail, learn from it, and, and, and move forward than to not make a decision at all. And, and you never know quite what is the right thing to do. Uh, so yeah. Also making decisions. Uh, this, this was another big thing that I did because, uh, in the, in the Pick n Pay environment, I, I had quite a lot of, um, freedom. To run the business in the way I felt was the right way to run the business. And obviously there was some, if, you know, when you are innovating, you have to take risks and sometimes the risks don't work out and you and you and you don't get it right. Fail fast, learn from it. Uh, and, and take it forward. Uh, move it, move forward with learn. Having learned from those mistakes, I, I always believed you just make decisions. Just keep making decisions because that way you will learn very quickly what was the right decision to make and what was the wrong decision to make. And you can fine tune whatever it is you're trying to achieve by making those, uh, those mistakes and failing fast, as I say.
Grant Greeff:So talking about decisions you've made, you know, in the, in the more recent years, you've made two critical decisions. And the one was, you know, from retiring to Pick n Pay, uh, from retiring, from Pick n Pay, then to, to after some time to go to Woolworths, and then to then to you, uh, Shoprite checkers, uh, you know, to start up UNIQ. So. Talk to me a bit about why you made the decision to go into Woolworths, because that, for me, my understanding was more of like a, a turnaround or kind of like just a, a revamp or some, some level of, um, reenerg, reenergizing, um, energy that was needed. Talk to me a bit about, you know, those two critical decisions that you made and, and, and what, what was the reasoning around it?
Michael Coles:Okay, so, um, in, okay, so retiring from Pick n Pay was a, I was age 63 when I retired. The retirement age was 60, but I spent another three years there on contract and. They, they had to, they had to find succession. Um, because as a, as a, um, for, for good corporate governance, you can't just have a situation where your company's totally dependent on a key, on any, on one key individual. So they, they, they found succession. Okay. And, uh, I moved on. Wool was then heard. I was in, um, uh, in retirement and they approached me and said. We are finding ourselves in a bit of difficulty. The clothing business, what they called FPH at the time was struggling and uh, I think this is the, uh, on the record that the clothing business was, was, uh, struggling. They were having problems in Australia with the David Jones business and they just needed someone to assist in the, uh, assessment of the business and taking it forward and. What I found was that Woolworths were, had been left behind in, in a number of ways. Uh, they were left behind with, uh, with their logistics. So there was catching up that had to do, uh, to, to be done. They'd been left behind with the way they displayed product on the floor. So, for example, little things like, like a lot of their merchandise was still displayed on Rex. Uh, I, I. Used tables in the Pick n Pay environment to display merchandise. And I felt that always could benefit from that experience. Um, they also had a lot of different brands in their business that were kind of competing with each other, so that needed to be cleaned up. So I felt I could make a contribution and I was there for about three years and, uh, I think I did assist them to clean things up. And, and, and the, the, um. The business kind of bottomed out. It was also over covid. Uh, it was a, you know, I joined the company in January, 2019, and a year later, later Covid hit. And, uh, COVID kind of killed everything for about six months, if you recall. Um, so so there was that very difficult period as well, which, which had to be, uh, managed. Uh, and, uh, I was, I was, uh, on, on a two year contract at, uh, at Woolworths, and they extended that to another year. So I was there for three years. And in the final, well, after my contract concluded, I started talking to re about starting a clothing business. Well, we made contact with each other, put it that way. It wasn't, uh, my own pitch. We, we decided to start. Looking at the possibility of, of starting a clothing business. Uh, it was the one area that ShopRight was, had not yet been, um, had not yet entered the retail, frail, let's call it. And, uh, they were keen to see what they could do. Uh, and I, it was, I was able to harness all the energy and experience and learning from my previous. Decades of retail into that one moment of, uh, of a new retail business. Um, and so we started the business, we started from scratch and we opened our first store in March last year with quite a lot of innovative, um, uh, things that, that we've, I'm sure you've been to the store. We were the one of the first, if not the first, uh, business to go cashless. Uh, we were the first to have a self-service, um, business, which at the time when we were talking about it, people said this would never work. And this is South Africa. And in fact, it worked fantastically well. Um, but the most important thing for me was to have to do a few things. Well, uh, it's quite important in, in, in, you know. You know, you've, you've heard the book, uh, that book, the Paradox of Choice. You give people too much choice and they become confused and they just walk out the store. And I find that a lot of retailers today, all over the world and South Africa, offer customers just too much choice. And, and some, some customers like a lot of choice, uh, young. Uh, the Zara, for example, the Zara, uh, business offers customers a wide variety of choices, uh, of articles within categories. Um, and, and the, and that's what the Zara customer wants. But there are a lot of customers out there that we found as you get older, you don't wanna spend so much time shopping for clothing. You wanna spend as little time as possible shopping for clothing we fund and therefore make. The, the, the choice is for the customer and do the few things that customers really want, do them well. And that was our philosophy. That's what we built that business on. And that's, that's where it is today. You know, offering customers, uh, a few things done well. Um, and, and we are not, you know, the, the, the business world is littered with, uh, uh, of businesses that have been successful doing a few things. Well, if you look at Apple. You can take the entire product range of Apple, put it on a table, and that's, and that is Apple. And it's a, it's a trillion dollar value business. Uh, if you look at Tesla, Tesla's got, how many cars have they got? They got two cars in a truck. That's what they sell. Uh, but their market cap is bigger than all the, uh, the other motor industry businesses in America combined. So. There is merit in doing a few things Well, and that was one of the things we were determined to do in, in the space of, of the UNIQ business in, in the Shoprite business.
Grant Greeff:Well, I, I, I've definitely, I've definitely definitely visited and I, and I, and I, and I took a couple of, um, shots there that I'll include also on the podcast and I. I think that just how, how the experience is there is, is refreshing and it's not overwhelming, as you've said, as you've shared, like it's, it's really just focused. So I think as a consumer, I can definitely see that being needed in a, in a world where I. It's, it's becoming very overwhelming with information, you know, with, with everything trying to grab your attention. So, so I, I can definitely agree with you there. And Mike, we, we've now kind of run out of time here, so I think, um, I, I wanna ask you, I. Do you have anything that you'd like to just leave, you know, the, the audience with, in terms of just, you know, if you were to sum up what we've chatted about and maybe even something that we haven't, that they need to just be aware about going forward that you would, you know, wanna pass on to them?
Michael Coles:Uh, you're talking maybe about young people that have started their careers or people that are in
Grant Greeff:say, I would say aspiring professionals and even just, you know, just recent professionals that have, that have entered the industry in, in whatever industry it is.
Michael Coles:Yeah, so, so recent, recent professionals, I think you should, uh, whatever it is you decide to do, do it as well as you can. Give it your best shot. Uh, don't think that it's better if you do this. Just get through this job because the real job you want is, is somewhere else. Um. I, I think, I think you, you've got to, uh, you've gotta decide that you're not wasting your time, that you're giving this thing that you're doing its best shot. Um, and then, and then in business itself, it's, it's, it's, it's important to understand what you are capable of doing, what your limits are, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. I think it's important to do those internal as they, as they call them, s swat. Uh, analysis. I know it doesn't apply. It does in fact apply to, uh, to to individuals. You can, you can work out what your strengths are. You should write them down. You should work out what your weaknesses or you write them down what opportunities you are blessed with and what threats face you. You can, you can do that kind of analysis, write these things down, and slowly a picture will emerge of what it is about you that, that is marketable, that is going to allow you to. Um, uh, make yourself valuable and, and make a, give, give you a good living. And at the same time, you'll be able to enjoy what you're doing. And I think it's very important that you, every day when you go to work, you should look forward to it. You should, you should be kind of, this is something you've gotta spend eight hours of every day doing. It's a third of your life at work. You've gotta make sure that you're working with people you like, people that you, well. Not only like, but that share your values. Um, because you're spending all that time with those, with those people. You've so, so they can't be foreigners to you. They can't be strange to your way of doing things. Um, yeah, you've gotta, you've gotta understand yourself. I think very importantly, you've gotta know what is it about you that makes you likable, that makes you, uh, not likable? What is it about you that is. Uh, able to make money for the company. If it's your own business, what is it about you that makes you, um, valuable to the, to your customer? Um, so it's, it's quite, it. Look, it's hard to, it's hard to put down a philosophy of how to succeed in a few short words. I mean, people write books about it, umpteen books about it, so. But, uh, I think the thing is, you know, take, take stock of yourself, take stock of your circumstances, and do your best within that to optimize, uh, the, the, the card you've been dealt.
Grant Greeff:Amazing. Thank you so much, Mike. I really appreciate it and I. Just what you've, what you've been a part of, what you've con contributed to, uh, specifically in the retail space, but more importantly to the people that you know, you've served along the way, I think is just, uh, instrumental. So thanks for, for being an example, and I know a lot of people are gonna gain a lot of value, uh, from our discussion today.
Michael Coles:I hope so. Thank you very much for having me on.