79: Clutter-Free Life: How Clearing Your Space Can Transform Your Mindset with Helen Sanderson

Episode 79: Clutter-Free Life – Transform Your Space, Transform Your Mindset with Helen Sanderson

In today’s episode of The McClain Method Podcast, we’re diving into the powerful connection between your home environment and mental wellness. I’m joined by Helen Sanderson, the UK’s leading expert on the psychology of clutter and the author of The Secret Life of Clutter. 

Helen is here to show us how to clear the physical clutter in our spaces—and how doing so can lead to a clearer, more intentional mindset.

Helen, known as "The Clutter Therapist," shares her unique approach that blends psychotherapy with interior design to help people declutter not only their homes but their lives. This episode explores:

• Why clutter is more than just physical stuff – it’s about what’s going on inside your head.
• How clutter can be a mirror for your mental state, and how clearing it can help you tap into your potential.
• The emotional journey of decluttering, from attachment to guilt to personal growth.
• Tips for interior designers on how to gently help clients face the clutter in their own homes without overstepping.
• The powerful role of mindset in design and how to create spaces that support both mental and physical wellness.

Helen gives insightful advice on the Clutter Shift and the importance of compassionate guidance through the decluttering process. If you’ve ever struggled with the clutter in your home—or in your mind—this episode is for you!

Resources Mentioned:

• Helen Sanderson’s

Learn how to build a profitable, polished interior design business—without burning out. In this free training, John McClain shares the 3 secrets that took him from overwhelmed to booked out, including pricing tips, service structure, and mindset shifts that actually work.

 CLICK HERE to watch now at https://mcclainmethod.com/dbft-video-optin

Learn how to build a profitable, polished interior design business—without burning out. In this free training, John McClain shares the 3 secrets that took him from overwhelmed to booked out, including pricing tips, service structure, and mindset shifts that actually work.

CLICK HERE to watch now at https://mcclainmethod.com/dbft-video-optin

Transcript

Helen Sanderson The McClain Method Podcast Ep 79
[00:00:00] Is there one word to describe a clutter free life. 
Debt free, because I believe that living in clutter is like living in debt. you are always having to deal with yesterday's stuff. So, if you didn't say do your washing up one day, you have to deal with it the next day.
So you start your day dealing with yesterday, which is what you're doing when you're clearing debt, right? I think that everything that you do needs to be for your future self. So you are investing in your future self. So living debt free, that's my word 
Hey y'all, you're listening to the McClain Method Podcast, 
Episode number 79.
Welcome to the McClain Method, the podcast for interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I'm your host, John McClain designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting. It's about building a business that's both visible and profitable.
Inside and out. From marketing and messaging to mindset systems and visibility, we cover the front stage and the backstage of [00:01:00] your design business because your brilliance deserves the spotlight, and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes. So if you're ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it's time to let it shine.
Welcome to the McClain Method.
.
Hey everybody. I wanna welcome you back to the McClain Method Podcast, and today we're talking about something that really affects all of us, and that is the word clutter, the clutter that we have in our lives. And you're going to find that it's not just the stuff in your hallways or in your closets or in your storage unit. We're also going to talk about the emotional weight behind the clutter. And today I have Helen Sanderson. She is known as the Clutter Therapist. I love that term.
Thank you.
interior designer, and UK's leading expert on the psychology of Clutter, 
Wow.
the Secret Life of Clutter, is a must read for anyone who wants more clarity, both mentally and physically in their lives.
And this episode today is about [00:02:00] how your space reflects your inner world, and how cleaning it and clearing it can change your lives. So I want to introduce you to Helen Sanderson. Helen, welcome to the podcast.
Hi. It's really great to be here. Thank you.
So you've been called the clutter therapist, which I think is amazing. I love that term, and I can think of so many times when we've been therapists to our clients in lots of aspects, but I've never actually met someone who is called the clutter therapist, so I love that. But can you tell us how you ended up combining psychotherapy with interiors and basically what brought you to this? I think a really unique intersection that you're in.
Yeah, it is amazing and I'm always quite amazed myself how it's all kind of come together. But I remember being at school when you have to choose your A Levels or your advanced, training and I was like, psychology or art and I could never choose. And it's kind of those two threads have woven through my life.
And so there are times when I've focused more on art and interior design and aesthetics, and there are other times [00:03:00] when I've been, in the world of psychology. And, I was working with, several clients that I've actually referred to in my book and their stories.
And one person in particular, who'd been through a bereavement, a child's bereavement, which was really, you know, quite terrible. they had lots of unopened mail I found that actually I would sit there and I would start opening the mail and she would look at the mail and slowly we were kind of working through these bags of unprocessed stuff that, you know, when you go through a bereavement, your life kind of goes on hold.
So as we worked through this stuff, I felt, I feel like a therapist here. I feel like I'm in her home and she's telling me her life story and it's all coming out and it was very gentle and it was beautiful. It was actually very, very moving. So that was kind of, I think one of the first times when I started realizing that I wasn't really just opening mail.
there was much more to this than just, the stuff, there was her story, her life story, and the things that she'd done and things she hadn't done. [00:04:00] 'cause quite often in the objects that we keep is the part of ourself that we haven't yet realized. So I started seeing that actually in the Clutter was a story and was a part of a person that they were keeping kind of on hold in the closet or on the side or in the drawer.
And as we kind of came out, you know, look, there's the musician in you that that is still dormant and we, it needs to be kind of nurtured. And so it's really, really fascinating and I, I love it. So that, that's a little bit of how I got into it. 
cool. I think that's amazing. But you know, you. Made it sound so simple in what you did because it came naturally to you. And I think that is not everyone's superpower. That is not everyone's talent that they have. But I feel when someone opens up to you in that way, it's because there is obviously a connection and there is a trust with that person to do that.
So what do you feel is that trust that allowed this client as a specific, example, to open themselves up to you and then now future clients [00:05:00] to do the same? , What are you saying or doing, do you feel that is allowing them to trust you, to tell their story to you?
That's a brilliant question. I love that question. Um, I think, ' cause I've actually asked myself this, I thought, why do people often burst into tears when I'm here? You know, what have I done? but actually I think that I've done quite a lot of my own therapy and had a lot of my own journey, and I've been through quite a lot of struggles myself.
and that kind of, in a way it's, if you think about alchemy, it kind of, carves you out inside and it makes you a kind of a vessel, really. so I feel that in the work that I've done, I've come to an understanding that actually people are suffering. And when I was suffering or when I've been suffering, the thing that I've needed most has been compassion and understanding and judgment doesn't really help anybody, however, stuck we are.
we need compassion in order to come to terms with some of our pains and, you know, so I feel like I'm perhaps naturally a quite empathetic, compassionate person and maybe people feel that and pick [00:06:00] that up. But I'm also a get things done person. You know, I like to get things done. I'm not just about tea and sympathy, you know, it's, come on, let's get on and do it.
And so, I did realize at some point that, people could come to therapy and talk about their clutter for many years, but actually sometimes they just really need handholding and somebody to say, right, come on, we are gonna actually work through this and you can do it. you can go through this mail and I'm gonna be here right by your side and support you.
So it is a bit more of an action based therapy where I am beside you helping you get through it, and do it rather than just talking about doing it.
Yeah. And I think too, what I hear you saying is that you're giving them permission to do something and then the, the route to take to do that. a lot of times people, I find like students that I coach in my program, I think that they already know the answer. They know in a roundabout way what they want to have happen.
They just need someone to say, yes, that is what you need to do.
Yeah.
this is how you do that. and you coming from that empathetic [00:07:00] manner of saying, okay, I get how you feel this way, I get why this is happening to you. I get why this is bothering you. the baggage part of it.
But then to give them basically the permission slip to, okay, now here's what we're going to do enough. You know, I'm gonna hold your hand like I did in the beginning, but now we're gonna hold hands as we do the
Thanks.
that's a big part of it,
Yeah.
hearing 
Yeah. And then another thing that happened, sort of to go back to your question about, how I got into this was I, suffered from depression very badly and I had a friend who was depressed and when you're depressed, you don't wanna do anything.
Yeah.
remember we were sorting out her room together. She'd done a little bit of, graphic design for me, and I did a little bit of, decluttering with her. And we were like both talking about how depressed we were. And I remember this thought popped into my head and it was like, but at least we're doing something.
You know, at least we're both depressed, but we're kind of working through this stuff. And so I realized that actually for me, and it may be different for other people, but part of the root of how I've climbed out of my own. challenges with depression has been to [00:08:00] do things, to get active, to be involved, and to start seeing that I can make an impact, however small that is.
You know, whether or not, if it's your room and you just wanna paint your room, you can do that. You, you could, you know, if you can afford a pot of paint, you can actually do that and you can transform something or you can declutter your wardrobe and let go of some things. So there are really simple things that you can do when you are depressed, and the more you do, the more it kind of breaks you out of that ity that is, is, you know, comes from being depressed. 
so true. I've had depression therapy and at some points medication as well. I find that just putting one foot in front of the other and making, as you say, progress towards a goal and feeling as if you accomplished something, whether today you look back and that something you accomplish is this little, but at the time, it felt huge, right?
It felt like a huge, massive step because you weren't able to do anything as you thought. I love that emotional connection to what you're saying because I know that sometimes the baggage around our house, it does hold us back. what comes [00:09:00] first emotional baggage versus physical clutter?
Like what do you think is the thing that happens first? The chicken or the egg, right? Which one, which one do you see happening? Do we have. Badia are on the clutter, or do we have clutter because we have emotional, concerns in our brains? 
that's another great question. I really think they're kind of in tandem. So I'm going to duck out of that question and say they're mirror reflections of each other. it's a bit like the nature nurture question, isn't it? are we born, depressed?
Or do our parents mess us up, that sort of thing. But I think those things happen in tandem. I think I was born a sensitive child and then, you know, circumstances were favorable or not, so I think that, being a human being, this is what I'm learning as I get older is it's tough, isn't it?
life is gonna throw you challenges. I started off talking about a client who'd had a bereavement, and when something like that happens, you just go into survival mode and then, you can eat, sleep and wash if you're lucky. You don't deal with a meal, you don't deal with things and then they start [00:10:00] accumulating around you.
in that instance, perhaps the bereavement came first, but, somebody else who's had a bereavement wouldn't allow themselves to get into that mess at all. So maybe there was a tendency to be kind of challenged around keeping order and things around the house already. Do you see what I mean?
So you've got a kind of a combination of things. So that's why I'm saying both. I really think that some of us have come through childhood with trauma and then actually managing a house is just too much. Just feeding myself and getting myself to the gym or to work or whatever is, is all I can manage.
And then managing a home well, who can see it? Nobody can, nobody can come in the door. So it's just my own little hovel or whatever we have, you know? But, then there's the thing about values isn't there, where. for me, I love, I love beautiful spaces and I love environments, which is why I love what I do.
But not everybody sees the environment, and I'm sure you've had this with, you know, certain clients that you've worked with, where some people really get it and they're like, so [00:11:00] on the page with aesthetics and other people, they just wouldn't notice if you put a Picasso in front of them or something, 
So we are all different, and I think that really needs to be part of the picture here, because you know, some people really love aesthetics and space and some people don't and they don't care 
so interesting to me the prioritization that different people put on different things and I've, gone to to friends' homes and I'm sure you have as well, and, and even non-friends. And I'm like, oh, what? That was a decision to do X, y, z design choice in that home. Or, oh wow, okay, that is a messy bathroom and you're having guests over, like, all those things that I prioritize are different than what someone else prioritizes.
And to your point, I think it also comes down to the mental weight that it puts on. Right. Is that one more thing I can take on? I remember back during some of the points of my depression when I could barely take a walk. Right. I had to force myself to go out the door to get sunshine and to get fresh air. And that felt like an accomplishment for me. So I can totally see how that, emotional weight of things that are going on in your [00:12:00] life definitely can affect the physical surroundings around you. and I also know too, that when I have. in my closet. Even if the door's closed, Helen, even if the door to my
Oh yeah.
I know that that closet needs organized.
When we first moved into our home, you would, you would be aghast at, what am I about to tell you? you would be so turned off by this. we moved close by relatively, and I was like, why am I gonna put my clothes in a box, or put them in luggage?
I literally threw them in a huge trash bag and I took them and I put them in my closet and I said, oh, I'll get to that one day and now I'll do that, because that wasn't the priority I needed to get the kitchen organized and all the other things in the home. And so, but behind that door, every night I knew that, that that messy closet was holding me back and was waiting down on me.
And I knew even though the bedroom was fine. The closet wasn't organized . I know that's a very small example, but for me, I can attest to the fact that the emotional weight of that mess, in my closet was, honestly helping me not sleep very well.
Right. So what are some of the signs that you think that our home is maybe holding us back or [00:13:00] not helping us grow or, that's a specific example from me, but are there other signs that people should look out for that maybe your home is keeping you from growing where you want to go and maybe holding you back in ways that you don't even realize?
I love that example because, it's spot on because actually, even if it's behind the door, A lot of my clients say, oh, I go out a lot and I shut the door.
then I don't have to think about it. but you never shut the door on it, do you? and this is the thing, it becomes a mental load. It becomes a weight on your mind. and then all of that mental energy that you are spending thinking about, nagging yourself, come on, get on, sort out the clothes in the cupboard, you're not then using that mental energy to be creative.
And that's for me, you know, I have clients that will have been sitting in clutter for years and they've been nagging themselves to get on with it and sort out the clutter. not only are you using up that mental space, but what about the potential of the spaces that are full?
Like quite often people will, in England we have this, like a box room, it's just a [00:14:00] small, very small room that's kind of too small to be a bedroom. But it then ends up being the jumping room or the just put it there till later.
And then I think that then becomes the room that, shows you potential, the potential that you are not tapping into. So the clutter then represents stuckness or, avoidance or displacement. You know, like putting your, energy in. People will say, oh, I've been decluttering for ages, and I just think, oh, try and get it done.
And then put that energy into being creative. Like create a beautiful room or a beautiful environment or have that as your creative drawing studio or your, ceramics or stained glass window or your writing room or something So that's what it represents for me, that we fill our creative potential and it's then externalized.
And I dunno if I've answered your question, but I kind of went off on one there because of, the whole thing about your home speaks your mind. If you feel your mind, you feel your space.
I agree with that, and I do,
I.
I [00:15:00] totally love what you said about it holding you back in other areas, and You don't have to label yourself as a creative to be held back, I don't think from what that clutter is probably holding you back from, it could be holding you back from quality time with your family.
It could be holding you back from, I don't know, taking a walk or doing something that you love, as you say needle point. Any of those things
Yeah.
enjoy doing, it could be holding you back from that and you don't even realize it. 
Yeah.
disservice to ourselves that we silently allow this clutter to take over our lives.
Yeah.
I think that it comes to the point where we don't even realize, you know, that it's doing it right. We don't even know that that's what's happening. What do you think is the moment when, one of your clients, for instance, realizes that the clutter is about more than all that stuff?
When do they realize that, oh, yes, that is stuff, but it's also about more things that's happening in my head. When do you think that happens with people? Is it just after you're urging, or do they come to that conclusion on their own? Sometimes.
I'm not sure about the when, but I know that a lot of people have said to me, Helen, the reason I've [00:16:00] contacted you is because I realize somewhere deep inside I realize that it's more than just the clutter and because you work holistically. Or they say, I've read your book and I identified with every single story in the book, and you know, a little part of me there.
So they start to realize and I say it's, you know, it's not just about the stuff, it's about the person. and it's about our life story and what we are avoiding or in denial about, I love that little phrase. I'm going to dot, dot declutter, or I'm going to sort out that wardrobe and then how the, I'm going to never happens.
Or it just becomes this like a bit of a ball and chain that you're pulling around with you. and what you really want is someone to just cut that chain and say, do it. Just come on, get it done. and that's what I discovered as I was saying earlier in my depression journey, was the more I did things and engaged with the world more, it helped my mental health.
So quite often in, like spiritual or psychological worlds or, mental health. They say, oh, you need to sort out your inner life, your [00:17:00] thinking and your this, or meditate or that. But actually I'm into the both, do both sort out your external and, internal and we all know that going and getting your hair or a new dress or refurbishing your kitchen, it makes you feel so good.
So it's not just about the internal, you can't neglect either, I think. And that's the whole body of my work really, is that we are internal and external and they're both mirroring each other. 
That's very good. And I agree with you there is that I'm going to dot, dot.as you
Yeah.
I just need to tidy up. Right, right. I just need to clean this up a bit. Do you find any commonalities when people say that phrase to you that, of what's going on beneath the surface of them is, are there any common factors that instantly arise when they say, oh, I just need to, you know, dot, dot, dot.
What do you see with most people? Or is it just completely different from each person? 
I think everybody's unique, but I think also, you know, I think you asked me just now about this and something about can go on for years, but then something happens where now I need [00:18:00] to deal with this. I'm done. I'm done being overweight and I am going to lose weight.
Now I'm done talking about it or I'm done living with clutter. something breaks inside where we kind of have a moment of realization with ourselves that we've been in this cycle of, denial and actually I don't wanna live like this anymore. I feel lonely. I don't invite anyone in.
I don't feel like this home really reflects who I am or my potential. I don't feel like I can grow here, So, I think something does happen inside where we just say enough now and I want to change. And then that's usually when people get in touch with me, where they're just, they've reached that point where they're fed up with themselves.
Not in a harsh way, but I always joke with my clients, I, hate exercise. I just think there's, so, it is kind of tedious, you know, go to the gym or whatever, you know, and, and, and I've been doing the same thing. I'm going to go and do this, you know? 
And then eventually something happens where you, your knees start collapsing and you suddenly go, oh, cry here. If I don't do something, I'm, I'm gonna [00:19:00] be one of those people that can't get out of a chair. So, you know, something does happen and now I'm going to the gym. and, change becomes us.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree. And I can at least speak for myself to say there is that point to where sometimes it's, oh, I'm having a party and let me really finely deal with that because I've got 20 people coming over right to an event at my home. Or, going to have someone stay in my guest room.
Let me finally clear up that guest room and make it a place that's beautiful and, and whatever that catalyst is for people. But we've been talking a lot about people who. to that realization, people who know that they need to do that and they realize that there is a point when they need to change things.
But I have a lot of designers listening
Hmm.
and many of them and including myself, are working and have worked in homes, just filled with stuff, just filled with things that we're like, okay, that has to go. What advice do you have for designers to help us to gently address the clutter with our clients Without feeling like we're overstepping or [00:20:00] pushing or just being obnoxious to them, because sometimes we have to be that person to say, okay, this needs to happen.
So what advice do you have for us to sort of knock on that door and allow our clients to, to take the lead from there and for us to help them?
Oh, a tricky one. That one, isn't it? I think I do feel this, very strongly about clutter and a part of my mission really is to try to break down some of the shame that people feel around clutter. And it's an incredibly shame-based, there's been a huge amount of change now in the world that celebrities will talk about their mental health.
And, you know, it's not so shameful, is it? But there aren't many people that talk about clutter. And then when people say to me, well, I know someone who's got clutter, how can I tell them about you? Or How can I tell them to declutter? It's really difficult, like in a similar way that it's very difficult to say to someone, you might, maybe you wanna think about losing a few pounds.
I mean, it feels very intrusive. Doesn't it? So it is kind of a bit like, I guess selling the vision, selling [00:21:00] the, the potential of the space and how much more beautiful it would be with less stuff. And of the ways that I work with people is to help them let go of things that they no longer need, but keeping their precious memories intact.
So if you've done a declutter process and then you've got these special objects that they could then be incorporated into the design, even simply like somebody I worked with recently, had some ballet shoes. Big part of their childhood. And we thought, well, We could frame these and they could be part of the kind of the aesthetic and the story of this home.
And so it's about encouraging people that the home can tell a story. It can still have their identity, it can still have little pieces and artifacts that are meaningful. However, like any gallery, when you want to display something, the space around the object is as important as the object itself.
So I would kind of find a way of saying, you know, would you like me to refer you on to or a friend of mine does professional organizing? Did you know that that's a [00:22:00] thing? You know, so just kind of like casually mentioning it. And obviously there's, there's so many organizers around now, they're easy to find.
So finding someone in your local area. so it's kind of really talking about it in a casual way without pointing the finger but one of the things that I've, I've been frustrated as a designer is I often have the big vision and I can see we did this and we did that, and then the client can't get on board with it.
And I've realized that actually. Part of my job is to try and educate people into why I've come to the decisions or why I want to do that. Whereas in the past, I always felt irritated that I had to educate people. I'm like, well, I'm not an educator. I just was a designer. I wanna just do it. you need to take people with you, don't you?
And that's part of the, the designer's job is really to , take the client on the journey to where they could be and to propose it as this space could represent the person that you wanna grow into. So I like to think of it as a snake skin. You know, like we're shedding a part of ourselves, an old you, this is an old you [00:23:00] and you are ready for a refurbishment.
You're ready for a new you to come in. And so in order to do that to shed, you need to let go of some things I can help you to talk to someone who can maybe help you, let go of some stuff so that we can really let the new you shine and really blossom in this new space.
 like recently I was with somebody and they had a tiny little office space and they're like, oh, I want this room to do two things. I want it to be my office and I want it to be my dressing room. And I'm like, oh my God, it's tiny. 
And I'm like, oh my God, when you do that, you're gonna make it feel even worse. And you know, so of course we know all that stuff, but our clients don't. And so I've had to, you know, start saying, well look, if you can do this, then that can do that. and then I notice the other thing that you'll probably notice is that people will start putting things back where they were before.
Because it's our psyche, isn't it? It's our mind. And it's like somebody's come in and moved your mental furniture around and you start putting it back. So I've tried to now start saying to people, look, you are in a transformation, and if you go back to the [00:24:00] old, that's really up to you.
However, if you've spent a lot of work and time and effort and money to lose some weight, then you'd wanna try and keep that off. So you wanna try and keep your space grow into this new you where there are spaces in between these special things. So I mean, feel like I'm preaching to the converters.
'cause obviously you've all, all of your audience know about the space. We all love space, but you know, the negative space is important as a positive space, isn't it?
See that's great that you just said that. And I agree too with shedding that skin. I think that's a great example. And if we have ways to relay the message gently to our clients, right. Without, as you said, sounding like you're. Or feeling like you're approaching a very sore subject with them or something that is so delicate that you don't even know how to approach it.
But a lot of design is a mindset shift, right? I think it is. Like a lot of times you may be taking someone's home that they've lived in for 30 years and they've asked you to come in as an interior designer to change things. They've asked you for a reason to come into their home and to give them ideas on redesigning it.
it's up [00:25:00] to us to have that boldness and that power inside of us to say, it's okay if we say it this way because we are the expert. We do know what they need because we've done it before. I like to do something, and I don't know if you've done this before, but I always like to have examples in the back of my mind of other clients' homes that were similar or. Other situations. the story is really important I think. And when you have a story in your mind, it could be your own story, it could be a story of someone else, but when you relay that story to a potential client or someone that you're working with now about a past client or a friend or a family member or yourself, and give them things to hear and to latch onto, and you can say, look, this person did it.
I did it. Here's what that situation was. I find that helps to make them feel as if they're not on an isolated island by themselves, like there are other people going through that. Do you think that empathetic approach also helps people to understand it better and the reasoning behind it?
Absolutely. I mean, that's why I wrote my book, the Secret Life of [00:26:00] Clutter, because I wanted to, it's really a book of stories and I think that people relate to stories much more than facts. And you know, I'm talking about teaching people and educating them, but it's like some people are never gonna get.
This concept of negative space. You know, you and I know what that is, but perhaps that's too abstract and maybe the story as you say, is relatable and we can connect and, I mean one idea I did just have is if you've got partnerships with people and you've got a partnership with a professional organizer on your website and your clients are on there, then it's kind of like a little bit of a hint, isn't it already, that it's a service that you recommend that, you know, people might go through.
I know that a lot of estate agents work with professional organizers because you can't sell a house when, well, you can sell a house that's full of clutter, but you're not really doing it any favors. so having those kind of things is really, and stories.
Absolutely. And I love that example that you just gave of telling stories so that people can get on board with you. 
I think having some sort of backup in other ways is great. so a lot of [00:27:00] my. Students I coach in my program, again, they know the answer of what they want to say. They just don't have the nerve to do it. And if there's a problem, if it's difficult for them to talk about, let's say pricing or if it's difficult for them to talk about, the timeframe of a project, I encourage them to do things like, write a blog post.
Put the blog post on your website, send that gentle email out to the client and say, have you read my blog post about this very subject? And I think that, as you said, has all those things to back up what you're saying and to show them that you're not just trying to enforce this on one person. It's actually part of your ideology of the way that you operate.
Right? And I think when you have those things to back that up, and that could be in the form of a newsletter, I believe, to gently let people know where you stand on things. But I find as a business person and a professional interior designer. That if we don't stand for something, everyone is just going to make up their own assumptions about what we feel, and it's gonna be based upon what they feel.
and so how do you gently sort of get that conversation started? for instance, let's say you're doing a consultation with a [00:28:00] client at, at their home, or do you do them at their home? Or do you start on a video call? How do you start that with your
I used to do it in homes, but you know, COVID did me a favor anyway, so I do a show arounds on Zoom now. 
Okay. so you're on the Zoom call. You're speaking with a client and you notice instantly off the bat maybe something that they didn't know. do you just tell them straight away of what you're thinking? Or do you say, Hey, I have my book that talks about this. Or do you say, I have a blog post? my newsletter just had this conversation.
how do you personally do that with someone to get it started? Do you wait or do you do it right away? Or do you just like. Right between the eyes, or do you hold off a while?
I think people have already come to me knowing that I'm the clutter therapist, so I deal with the psychology, so that perhaps that really helps. And so when they've approached me, they know that that's gonna be part of the package of the way in which I work. And I always, if someone approaches me, we always do a deep conversation because I wouldn't ever go into someone's home and start telling them what to do.
Mm-hmm.
really understanding [00:29:00] what's the story here, what's really gone on and how is the best way to work with this person? to come back to that sort of idea of inspiring people and telling stories, I think that might be one of the ways and also giving people permission not to engage.
You know, I always say, I'm gonna ask you some quite personal questions about your relationship with your home. None of these are compulsory, and actually nobody's ever said I'd rather not answer that. But I think when you give someone permission not to engage, then they trust you more. And, trust is really important, isn't it?
I mean, there's nothing more intimate than your home. It is really where you keep your skeletons in your closet really, isn't it?
Hmm. Yeah, totally true. And I do think that the approach is very critical to just developing that relationship and gaining that trust. And you're not necessarily going to get it on the first phone call every time. It may take a couple of times for that client to sort of open up to you because maybe they've had issues in their own past and they don't want to reveal [00:30:00] what those are. do you think that when people are sort of negotiating with themselves and maybe even negotiating with you on letting go of some things, because Is that tied to guilt? Is that tied to, you know, a family connection? I've had lots of clients who say, no, I'm keeping that coffee table.
No, you're not getting, and it's the ugliest thing and it's not even functional, right? So we've just sort of come to a conclusion of mutual ground to say, okay, we're going to take this coffee table and turn it into a desk for your office. We're gonna put legs on it, raise it up.
Mm.
we're gonna put a piece of glass on top of it and then you can use it in a private space right.
Yeah.
will not distort it, but we will keep it. But, so I find there's a hard road to hoe when you are trying to say, that is so terrible. That is so non-functional. That is just literally clutter in your life and then saying, okay, let's, reinvigorate this and give a new live.
So how do we renegotiate this attachment that clients have to their things? what are some of the steps involved in that? 
another great question. I'm really loving this [00:31:00] conversation so one of the, I think there's something about contracting and how you set up the relationship with the person I mean, this is slightly different because I'm going in and I'm, I've got permission to move things around.
And so I might, I always say before I go in and in the contracting process, I would like to play with your space. I'm an interior designer. I might have a way of seeing things that you can't see, or the space might speak to me in a different way. I would like permission to play with the space, move things around, and are you okay with that?
That is a process of change. That's why I'm here. however, ultimately, if there's something that I do and you don't like it, it's your home, not mine. So really the invitation is that you will play with me with the space, be open to seeing the space through my eyes, because it may be something that I've seen that you haven't seen.
And then, you know, also in the contracting, I might say, what do we do if we hit a wall? If you start, resisting and you know, like [00:32:00] you've employed me to have this vision for you. I want to create this. I want to give you the best that I can. And, you know, we've hit a wall together and you don't want to let go of this coffee table, for example.
You know, how will I deal with that with you? What's the best way for me to approach you? So I actually kind of ask them, you know, to tell me how to deal with them. Does that make sense?
I love that. I love that you're literally getting permission from them
Yeah.
when this obstacle presents itself. 
If it does. 
in my experience this has presented
Yeah,
you know, things do come back.
yeah.
phrase in my experience, or based upon my past circumstances or, with past clients.
I use that all the time. But I, I love that you're saying when this
Mm-hmm.
which there's a probably a 50 50 chance that it could, how should I address you when this happens? Are you wanting a more direct approach? Do you need a little more, you know, stroking of the hair when I say Do you wanna
Like, are you, are you visual? Would you like me to show you? So if you're a graphic designer, for [00:33:00] example, my husband's a graphic designer and he will come up with a concept and then the client will ruin it, and they'll say, well, no, we want this. And it's like, he knows that's not gonna work, but he has to then show them, look, this is what you've asked for and this is what I've presented.
And then explaining. It's like taking someone over that bridge. I do think it's one of the most frustrating things about being a creative visionary person is taking somebody with you over to where you want them to go. And they're like, well, I'm only gonna go there if I can take my coffee table. And I think your solution of.
Well, let's turn it into something else. So do you know, can we turn it into a desk is absolutely brilliant and genius. it's frustrating for us if we have an eye for aesthetics and then we have to include, something that we just never would put into the project.
it is really difficult, but it is, I think about the setup, the contracting and saying, you know, in my experience, people invest a huge amount of money with me. they're asking me to take them from here to the here and that we've agreed this goals and this contract, and I'm, my job now [00:34:00] is in service of these goals.
I'm not gonna be in service to the part of you that doesn't wanna change. the part of you that wants to stay stuck in the same, I'm now in service of this part of you. 
Mm.
what do we do when your old self who wants to stay stuck and whatever, and clinging on. Starts fighting with your potential self.
Yeah.
You know, I talked about my challenge with exercise earlier, like my old self can't be bothered. It's boring and I don't want to do it. And the other part of me knows that in order to maintain my health, I need to do it. So there's an always an inner conflict.
And so in a way we have to become a bridge between and hold those two parts in mind. 
Those are very good points, and I will say that you beautifully say it with your lovely accent also helps to ease the pain. So maybe we can just channel our inner Helen when we're having these conversations with our clients if they're not fortunate enough to bring you on to work with us.
But, I do know that by letting the client have those expectations, I think the biggest [00:35:00] problem we face as business owners in general, or service providers in general, especially in the creative industry, is not setting up expectations for what our clients could expect during the entire process.
Not letting them know that this is going to be a rough period of, let's say a renovation or a decluttering in your situation where everything's everywhere, but the final result is going to be worth it. and a lot of times we. gloss over out of fear of alarming the client or just being a people pleaser.
I think we gloss over the fact that there are these rough periods and we try to be a magician who just makes everything happen so perfectly and we are in a lot of ways
Yeah.
 but I like to bring the client along with me and say, okay, as you were just saying, there are gonna be those times when this isn't so great and I'm gonna be there to help you become the other better version of yourself.
That by eradicating this clutter and arranging it and organizing your life and your home, you're gonna be a better person in general, and I think that's the part that we don't tend to address directly with clients. Do you agree with that as far as the interior design part of things?
[00:36:00] Absolutely. and that's what I think it comes back to contracting and yeah, totally. I always say to people, one of the things people don't like when they dec clutter is that it's a messy process. Oh, it's already messy, and it comes too messy. and I get really overwhelmed and I say to someone, if you want a new kitchen, you're gonna have to have some mess, you know?
And everybody hates it when builders are in. It's dusty. There's people in your space. Everybody hates it. and even however many cups of tea you wanna give them is still gonna be horrible. but you know, it's like, again, setting up the expectation that to expect that. the refurbishment of a new kitchen as an example, when we are decluttering it is gonna be like a complete refurbishment, however, it's gonna only be for three days, whereas quite often a refurbishment of a kitchen can be six weeks or so, or even longer.
Yeah.
it's definitely around contracting and expectations. And that's where I think experience comes in is, as you were saying earlier the more things that you kind of can anticipate might come up with a client, if you can talk to them about them in [00:37:00] advance and then say how do we deal with this?
how do I, 'cause I'm the advocate of your vision. what happens when you are pushing away. I need to know the best way to help you stay on board with this.
Yeah, I find that the best time to have that conversation is early on in the relationship of working with them when they have that excitement and when they have that energy inside of themselves to want to see the final result before all the, the quote bad things or messy things,
Yeah.
I guess we could call it,
You do that when there's still. phase, and they're still really excited about the outcome because they've, asked you to work with them for a reason
in your business and in ours as, as designers, separately, they've asked us to come into their lives for a reason. So we have to just remind them like, why you asked us to work with you and let's focus on the outcome.
But there will be this part in the middle. I love that. So you have a holistic approach, I believe that you call the clutter shift, if I'm not
the clutter shift is an online program that I run. It's an intensive month so [00:38:00] people can, join from anywhere in the world. it's a combination of where I teach the psychology of clutter so that we can understand ourselves and also we do live shifting sessions together. 'cause again, it's about my approach is the psychology and getting into action.
So I always say to people, clutter is decisions that haven't been made. ' cause we need to make decisions. And so we look at why can't I make decisions? What's going on? Quite often? it's because of emotions. We get emotionally flooded. And then the other part of that is, and actions that haven't been taken.
So we might make a decision and we might have a bag of donations sitting by the front door, but they haven't gone yet and they haven't gone for weeks. So it's about making the decision and then following through in the action. And that's across the board. Whether it's decide whether or not to keep it, decide whether or not where it's gonna live.
Everything has a place, a place for everything that's a decision. decide how you're gonna dispose of it. it's a decision making process. And decisions are difficult and overwhelming, which is often why people get into procrastination. But the clutter shift is my signature program. [00:39:00] I've created it, it's got all of my years of experience in it, and it's a really beautiful, lovely experience.
And, um, quite often the groups stay together and they go away and they help each other and they carry on supporting each other and it's really lovely. and I've got a couple of other programs on my website, which are a little bit cheaper as well so I've tried to cover all bases. 
that's great. I love all of the different options that you have, and we will touch on some of the other ways that people can connect with you before we wrap up. But for those who are listening and I do have some homeowners who listen as well, but for someone who's listening, whether it is a designer or a homeowner, and they're thinking, okay, I hear Helen, I hear John, I hear what they're talking about.
I know I have a problem, do they know whether they should move into the DIY arena of it, or how do they know whether they should hire you as a professional or a professional to do this or take one of your courses or, buy your book? When do they know that it's okay to stop being the DIY declutter? and to actually hire a [00:40:00] professional to do that is, are there moments where they know that after they started, or should they do some sort of evaluation before they begin to understand that, okay, I'm not the person to do this on my own. 
I mean that's really, a good point because I think. my home declutter kit was designed as a DIY option, so it's got a little guidebook of how to use it, what to do, and a set of cards where you can actually go through that decision making process. And, some people get a, a fine, they're motivated, and I think it's about motivation.
If you're motivated enough to go through the difficulty of making those decisions. The difficulty of creating the chaos that is involved, following through on the actions and also processing any feelings. Not everybody has a lot of feelings about their stuff. Some people are just busy
Yeah.
they just need a practical solution.
if you find that you've tried using the kit and it's just sitting on the bookshelf or, you're still thinking about it. Give yourself a limit. I would say six months. But some people have been talking about this for years or thinking about [00:41:00] it, the clothes in the wardrobe or whatever.
then that's the time to get in touch and, follow me, get my newsletter. I'm always putting out tips and thoughts and things to think about. joining a five day challenge, which we offer, or joining one of my programs. Or if somebody really knows, they're incredibly stuck and they really need that handholding, that's when they need to talk to me about one-to-one or somebody else who's nearby. 
Great advice and I think too that you are working with someone like yourself who is a professional. that you've planned and there's a methodology behind it, and there is a system in place. So you're not just saying, oh, let's try and see if this works.
You're a professional who does this for a living, so you know, we all buy things and we, as you say, books or courses or whatever, and they just sit there and we have all anticipations and good hopes and are very optimistic about doing that. And I'm guilty as well.
I buy so many courses that I have to make a list of the course when I buy it so that I remember to go back, take the 
I know.
So I think that a lot of us have these anticipations of bettering ourselves and bettering our lives and [00:42:00] doing. with decluttering and all sorts of things. I think there comes a time when it does take that firm hand, such as yourself to say, okay, you've thought about this for a while. You've had those bags ready to donate for a long time. Now I'm going to take your hand and give you that permission to do that.
Now, we've talked about a lot of stories that you've had over your career and my career, but do you have a success story that stands out to you, maybe a client that was really a hard shell to crack, or maybe they called you and they wanted to move forward, but maybe they found themselves a little more stuck than they realized.
Do you have a moment that has stood out with you that is like, this is a great success story. This client really overcame, a lot of obstacles with my program. 
gosh, there's many. I mean, the one that just pops into my head was somebody that I worked with who, was divorced and, was living in a great big house on their own. The kids have left home and. didn't wanna move because the house held memories. And yet the house also had sad memories 'cause they were on their own.
And [00:43:00] so we went through decluttering all of the objects and all of the, extra stuff that wasn't needed anymore. And then we sat down and we said, look, are you ready to declutter the house? because actually really it's time for you to move on and make a new life for yourself as a single person 
But when you're rattling around it in on your own, it however many memories you've got, actually it's, it feels empty. and so. We worked together. And even after the decluttering, we did some coaching together. And actually, I was on the journey of finding the new home and moving to that.
And I felt like that was such a huge personal achievement for that person because when I first met them, they were like, everyone's been saying to me, you'll never, you know, you keep talking about moving, their friends had become a bit cynical. Like, I'm going to move is just now we are like, yeah.
But actually with the help and guidance and support and letting go of stuff, it became less heavy. let's create new memories in this new space. And the new you and you can start again, shedding that [00:44:00] skin. as we get older, we get more afraid of shedding and reinventing ourselves.
But actually that's one of the joys of retirement is that we can reinvent ourselves and become and be other things. and there was a lovely creative space for this person to be creative. So yeah, that's one that really moved me actually. And there's been a couple of people that have been able to declutter a whole house in the process.
Wow. I love that. And I think we're all sort of creatures of habits in our own ways, right? and it's about finding new habits that align with what you want your life to look like, with what you want your home to look like.
It's about understanding, as you're saying, your client, they saw the final result and it changed them in a big way. And that's the part that we have to focus on with our clients in general is just saying, okay, there is a light at the end of this tunnel that's going to make you so happy. I wanna do a few rapid fire questions at the end, but before we do that, this conversation has been so fantastic. I've loved every minute of it myself, and I know that there's been people listening who have taken things away to apply to their own [00:45:00] businesses and even to their own homes, in my case, with the trash bags in the closet. tell people how they can connect with you. what options they have of working with you. I would love to just hear all the different ways that people can come into your world. 
well the first thing is my website, helen anderson.com. And, if you go to helen sanders.com/gift, you can get a free, booklet there. and there's also a Find your clutter profiles so you can find out what, what might be some of your C challenges and what's stopping you from get going.
So that's a really simple quiz where we give people a result. So really just get on my mailing list and, and then maybe get hold of a copy of my book, the Secret Life of Clutter and I mean, you were talking about online courses just now and my online courses are live. because I know how easy it is to sign up for something and, and then, not do it.
So I do live courses, it's really, you know, we show up, we get to know each other, we form a boundary and that's really the Clutter Shift program or Simply Declutter. So those two online programs and I also run a [00:46:00] five day challenge. So if you're on my mailing list, you're gonna hear about all of this stuff that I do periodically throughout the year.
and then any podcast interviews and things there, there is a podcast in the making and a membership group. So if you are interested in that, you need to sign up onto my mailing list. and then my Home Declutter kit, which is my method, my methodology that I've been using for nearly 20 years, started off as a set of cards that were clip art.
Do you remember Clip Art?
Yeah.
little icons from Word. They were Really terrible. but I used to have client,
had.
yeah, that's all we had. And clients used to say to me, oh, do you do, can I have a set of these cards? 'cause they were laminated in those days. and then I designed, the home declutter kit, which is my methodology in a box so that people could, use it themselves or with friends or maybe interior designers can use it, you know, depending on how involved you wanna get with that part of the process.
Setting up the cards gives clients the autonomy to make the decisions. I never make decisions for people. You cannot. You know, except if you're a designer and you've been [00:47:00] contracted to, but really what they keep and what they let go needs to be the client's decision. So setting up my declutter kit, using the cards to support people to make decisions, it's a brilliant process and it's beautifully illustrated. so there's a few things, that people can do to get involved with decluttering, and if not now, then when.
See, there's Helen asking you again. There's a timeline on it. Get on that right? If not now, when? and I love all of the options that you have. we'll put all of those in our show notes here for the podcast. So if you're looking for ways to connect with Helen, just go to the show notes of wherever you're listening to the podcast, and then we will have links to all of those in there.
So I wanna do a few questions for you here. And just a quick answer off the top of your head, and I didn't send these to you before, because I always like to hear what is the initial gut response from people? 
Is there one item that people struggle so hard with to let go of their homes? 
photos and, and I'm not saying that you should let go of photos, however you remember. Before we digitalized, there were lots of wallets and people would have boxes and boxes and boxes of those [00:48:00] photos And actually, you know, how it was in those days was we would take 15 photos of somebody's birthday party in the hope that we would have one good photo.
So really getting people to go through photos and find that one good photo and get rid of the overexposed, underexposed blurred, somebody with their eyes closed photos and actually it's really quite easy. But because they're so sentimental and they're part of a memory, we use objects to connect us to our past, our memories, our loved ones.
it can feel like. sacrilege to let go of photos. But actually what we are looking for are the really good ones. And then storing them in a way that we can, you know, it doesn't have to be loads of photo albums. There's lots of really good naty, storage solutions now for photos.
And if they're labeled up, well you wanna be able to go and find them. So everybody struggles with photos, so, yeah.
see that. Yeah, I can totally see that being a common thing that people struggle a lot with because I've, I've done the same. I'm like, oh, no, I have to have that. But then you're right, we have them digitally now, so we
Yeah,
that's when our phone [00:49:00] starts to overload with so many
yeah,
Because again, we take 25 photos of one thing, just
yeah,
leaving them on our phone, and then we go back to delete later and we're like, wait a minute. That's the exact same photo. Just, you know, a different pose 
yeah.
I agree with you there.
Yeah.
What is a favorite design tip that you can give us that also supports mental wellness?
just, an easy tip that would allow people listening to either relate to their clients or in their own life. One tip that is going to support being more well mentally. 
I like less visual noise. I like kind of calming colors, but, I always say to people because I'm an organizer, storage solutions when you open a drawer, is the drawer or the cupboard? is the stuff in the cupboard jumping out at you?
So I am into designing the insides of spaces as much as the outside. if you think your garden variety interior designer is doing the outside because everything is sort of surface, but if you've got all of that shoved in the cupboard, we're back to where we started, which was, it's still bothering your mind, isn't [00:50:00] it?
But if you open a drawer and it's got beautiful trays and things that are similar colors or similar materials, then you've got continuity that is being flowed throughout. And then you open the drawer and you can find exactly what you want. Everything's got a place, a place for everything.
And that I think is, is my tip. You know, even if you've got, jars and you're doing a kitchen and you've got a client who's a bit a DHD and they need to have things out 'cause they don't see what's inside, then what is out needs to be beautifully organized and Consistent containers and, you know, sympathetic colors and no bright.
Stark things that, for me, wellness is kind of ease, creating ease. Ease on the eye, ease on the function.
That makes total sense to me. Again, I've lived that and I'm a true fan of not just shoving things behind a door to where the
Yeah.
open at any touch of a hand. Right. You wanna, feels good to know that behind that closet door. or in that cupboard or in that, [00:51:00] drawer.
As you say, everything is organized. That does feel good to know that. And whether you know that it's bothering you or not, it probably is because it's there and you know it's there. And even if you're the only one who knows it's there, it's still there. Right. So it's still, it is still a part of, of your life.
Is there one last question. Is there one word? Now this could be difficult. One word to describe a clutter free life. One word that you would say summarizes what A clutter free life would be or is 
I would say not one word.
one word.
if I a debt free?
Oh,
Yeah.
Explain that.
Okay. 
that explain
Yeah. Debt free, because I believe that living in clutter is like living in debt. you are always having to deal with yesterday's stuff. So, if you didn't, I don't know, say do your washing up one day, you have to deal with it the next day.
So you start your day dealing with yesterday, which is what you're doing when you're clearing debt, right? I think that everything that you do needs to be for your future self. So you are investing in [00:52:00] your future self. So living debt free, that's my word kind of.
Oh my gosh. That is the perfect answer. That is the mic drop moment of the conversation. I love that we ended on that question and you didn't even know that was coming, so that is so, so good. I know you've all enjoyed listening to our conversation today, whether you're a designer or a homeowner, or just someone who's really tired of being buried in under their stuff.
This conversation was a real reminder that our homes are sacred, and Helen's work shows that clarity isn't about being perfect, it's about being present, right? That's really what I took from this conversation today. So Helen, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you so much for being open about your processes and your business and all the great tips that you've provided for people.
So Helen, thanks for being here today.
Thank you. It was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed your questions. I.
Thank you. 
Thanks for tuning into this episode of the McClain Method Podcast. I'm so grateful you made it all the way to the end because that tells me that you're ready to do the work that truly transforms your brand, your business, and your life. [00:53:00] If you want more tools, trainings, and behind the scenes looks at what I'm building next.
Head over to McClain method.com and don't forget to follow along on Instagram at the McClain Method for even more drops of brilliance. And remember, my friend, your brilliance is your brand. Don't dim it, design it. I'll see you next time.