80: Do it Afraid: Navigating Fear and Change in Design with Katie Decker-Erickson

Do it Afraid: Navigating Fear and Change in Design

In this episode of the McClain Method Podcast, host John McClain speaks with Katie Derek Erickson, founder of Success by Design. 

They discuss the importance of grit, perspective, and intuitive decision-making in business. Katie shares her journey from flipping houses to leading a multimillion-dollar commercial design firm and emphasizes the significance of sustainable design. The episode also touches on overcoming fear, the power of celebrating small wins, and the impact of having a defined 'why' in business. 

14:18 Celebrating Success and Finding Joy

18:12 Remote Teams and Effective Hiring

27:11 The Power of Systems and Processes

36:04 The Importance of Marketing Processes

36:53 The Need for Structured Task Management

44:38 Building Strong Relationships with Tradespeople

53:40 Handling Business Challenges and Burnout

01:00:32 The Power of Knowing Your 'Why'

01:05:44 Rapid Fire Insights and Conclusion

More On Katie and her program and podcast: Success by Design

Website: https://successbydesign.coach/

LISTEN HERE to John on Katie's Podcast: https://successbydesign.coach/podcast-library/b/attracting-luxury-interior-design-clients-with-john-mcclain

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/successbydesign_coach_podcast/?hl=en

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Learn how to build a profitable, polished interior design business—without burning out. In this free training, John McClain shares the 3 secrets that took him from overwhelmed to booked out, including pricing tips, service structure, and mindset shifts that actually work.

 CLICK HERE to watch now at https://mcclainmethod.com/dbft-video-optin

Learn how to build a profitable, polished interior design business—without burning out. In this free training, John McClain shares the 3 secrets that took him from overwhelmed to booked out, including pricing tips, service structure, and mindset shifts that actually work.

CLICK HERE to watch now at https://mcclainmethod.com/dbft-video-optin

Transcript

[00:00:00] I think sometimes that grit that sometimes only the school of hard knocks can teach you in some ways, but perspective is everything and sometimes you just have to do a couple laps around the block of life to understand that today, what you're being called to do in your business. scary? Yeah, sometimes it's scary as all hell. But there's also the idea of like, I did it. we did it, we actually did it, there's an inertia then that comes from that that makes the next time you step out to do that thing so much more empowering, liberating. You feel more capable.

 hey y'all, you're listening to the McClain Method Podcast, episode number 80.

. Welcome to the McClain Method, the podcast for interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I'm your host, John McClain designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting. It's about building a business that's both visible and profitable.

Inside and out. From marketing and messaging to [00:01:00] mindset systems and visibility, we cover the front stage and the backstage of your design business because your brilliance deserves the spotlight, and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes. So if you're ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it's time to let it shine.

Welcome to the McClain Method. 

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the McClain Method podcast. I'm so happy to be in your ears today, wherever you're listening. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And today's episode is a good one. I'm super excited. 

It's for any designer really, who's looking for ways to grow a profitable business that also aligns with your values. That's a key part there. And by the way, you don't wanna burn yourself out along the way. So we're going to get real about sustainable design and intuitive decision making and the power of the process.

I love that. And my guest today knows a thing or two 

about every single component that I just [00:02:00] mentioned. Katie. Derek

Erickson is the founder of Success by Design. She's a business coach, 

she's an educator, and the powerhouse behind a 

multimillion dollar commercial design firm with projects in over 20 

states all while raising a family and helping designers 

like you scale with intention.

Whew. Katie, that was a lot. Thank you for being here.

That's just a really kind way of saying you're getting really old if you did all that, which is also true, John,

It is things. and I kind of didn't want to lose track of all that you've accomplished and how you've gotten to where you are, because it really is a part of your story. And so I just wanna thank you for being here.

And I want you, if you could, to introduce yourself to everyone and maybe share a bit about your journey and now how you help designers, sort of face the fears that they have in their own businesses.

Totally. I'm humbled and honored, and when you came on our show, I flat out said y'all, I'm fangirling John. 

Ah,

 He's on our show. Just absolutely proud to be here. But yeah, it's been a 20 year [00:03:00] venture. No joke of getting to this stage.

Didn't go to school for design, didn't have any desire to get into design. did go to school. and got my undergraduate degree and then realized I really loved business and everything in life touches some aspect of business. It doesn't matter what you do, where you go, if you understand business, you're just better off in the world.

So went back to school, got my MBA, and still wasn't done. So I started teaching, which was kind of funny because I was 23 years old with an MBA and they wouldn't let me teach other college students. So I had to teach the high school leveling up college students that were in college

Oh.

I was like, oh, well now let's just say that. Okay. but then it was funny at the same time I was actually starting to flip houses because I was just really intrigued and I was very frustrated that I could not find someone who would just do color consulting and wouldn't do design. And I was like, there has to be somebody out here doing this.

This is not rocket science. I was living in [00:04:00] Scottsdale. I just didn't understand it. So I went back to school and I said, okay, this is what you do. When I get frustrated, I go back to school. So I'm like, we're gonna go figure this out and crack the nut of color, which then morphed into exterior design, which then during COVID morphed into interior design for commercial clients.

Now I will say the first three years I really stuck to residential and then I got very tired of doing marital counseling and to residential designers, you have my utmost respect. was like, I just need a line item and a budget. What are our project goals? Who's our target market and what is our deadlines, timelines, and what are the other people playing on the job?

And they're like, I know none of those things.

Instead it was like, well, and I was like, oh no, that's not gonna work for my personality. and so I switched left that. Kept teaching, and really hung out in that space for the [00:05:00] better part of 15 years. 

Wow.

I'm still there and love it. Love commercial design. Love budgets.

Love timelines, and love working with GCs, and other designers too. that really, been the interesting point is that when our firm grew 15 x in one year during COVID, when we added interiors, our

Wow.

came to us and said, please do interiors. And we said, okay. But I had to stop teaching.

But once we had the right people and we had the right processes, and we had the right. I missed it. I really

Mm.

it. And then I thought, why am I gonna go back? Not that there's anything wrong with, you know, college education, university education, good gosh no. But I'm like, I wanna get back to our industry. So that's when I started coaching other interior designers saying, how do we get your business, your processes, your scaling, your goals lined out and where you wanna be? And I find that deeply rewarding. 'cause we back to getting old. We have enough experience now that like there's lessons learned the hard way and defeats and things that I would love to prevent other designers [00:06:00] from having to experience and go through.

And also just getting your destination faster. I mean, you can take a hundred million routes to it, right? Or you can just plug it into your car and get there a lot faster. that's what coaching is, is it's just a catalyst to get you where you want to be.

Yeah. No, that's great. That's a, that's quite the journey and quite the, I I heard a lot of pivots in there too, which I love, and I think that's part of being a business owner is understanding when to pivot and when to revise and when to change. did any of those pivots come in an uncomfortable space?

Were you ever uncomfortable in some of those pivots and saying, maybe I should think about this longer? Or how do you approach those pivots in your business when you feel that urge or that need to do that?

Yeah, that's a really good question. And that's where the intuition comes in. I think a lot of times, and this is something I really try to work on raising kids especially, but also we talk about it a lot in coaching, and that's just your intuition 

One, can you listen? And then two, can you act on what you hear?

Hmm.

And [00:07:00] that's really where it gets hard. Like in your gut, you're like, this isn't a good idea. I know I shouldn't take this client, but like to use your verbiage, a heartbeat and a checkbook, I should take them, right?

It's like, no. And I love when you said that because it's so true and I feel like so many designers are trapped there. Like there's a reason. So one, have the courage to hear your intuition, but then two, have the courage to act on it.

Hmm.

we have to reprogram ourselves somehow. This gets deprogrammed out of us through the course of school, but they don't even let you use the bathroom when you need to use the bathroom, let alone have some intuition about something, right?

Hmm.

when you look back methodically, especially at American education where we really suck this out of people. But then you also look at the average American worker. Are they doing what they love? are they serving the people they love? Do they feel fulfilled? is the mantra I'll never work a day in my life if I get paid to play and. Is that what we are working to teach our kids is that what we're working to teach ourselves and unlearn these bad habits that [00:08:00] come along the way. And so I very much have had a journey to answer your question in a very roundabout way where I know what I'm supposed to do. And to this day, it sometimes still takes me longer than it should.

and then I get mad at myself. I'm like, you know better, you know better. But it's hard. It's not a tangible, and so yeah, leaving, leaving exteriors to come into interiors, that was huge. I mean, a fixed 15 x growth year is something that I remember doing spreadsheets at my kids', indoor soccer practice on delivery schedules and Excel that were just like tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, right?

And I'm like, this is not sustainable. You have to build a better system. a lot of it's been borne out of pain. I don't know. Do you feel like the same was true in your business?

Yeah. I mean if you really listen and pay attention to what's going on, you're gonna see things that didn't go well. And if you do your job as a business owner, you're going to stop and figure out how to make it go better the next time. It's just as simple as that. [00:09:00] And to your point with intuition, I think it's so intriguing to me how people know deep down what they want to do and what they should do.

You know, a lot of the people that you and I coach the same way, they'll tell you what they want to do if you pull it out of them, but they want to hear permission to do that. And So I don't know. When we stop giving our self permission, like when do we switch over to say, okay, I don't have to raise my hand to go to the bathroom, as you said, and now I can stop and say, okay.

John, you are allowed to do this without someone else telling me to do that. What kind of a mindset shift do we have to get to, to do that, in your opinion, and to get to the point to say, all right, I'm good. Like I know what I should do. I know that this is the right thing to do, and I'm going to write my own permission slip for that.

What do you think is the thing that finally lets someone jump over that hurdle to say that that's okay?

Yeah, it's such a good question. I think it's that whole idea. Oh, I love this book and I'm hesitating because there's a flip side to this, so I don't wanna be cavalier about it, but how to not give a fuck.

Mm

book. [00:10:00] It's a fabulous book about, you know what, you know, now just get busy doing it.

mm-hmm.

I think

You almost just had to read the title and that was pretty much enough, right? You're like, okay, I got it.

it got to be a book. 'cause I'm like, by chapter three, I'm like, and is there an and like, you know, it's so true. I mean, obviously we need to hear it from a bunch of different perspectives because it's a published book,

Yeah.

I think that, it's also. You gotta have a little bit of a cowboy attitude, which again, I say that with some caution. Like grew up in Bozeman, Montana

Mm-hmm.

my grandparents were immigrants. And I think there's some of this is just straight up in my DNA. My grandfather sailed eight days on a boat with my grandmother, nine months pregnant from Holland to get to America and signed in at Ellis Island

Wow.

and rode a train.

They were sponsored, they had no money, they had coins in their pocket, literally two kids. And my grandma was pregnant with the third. And I just always think about like when I feel scared to do something, I'm [00:11:00] like, and the boat, here's the real clincher. The boat had just come out of the war and they salvaged it for one final journey to get these people to America.

What a story.

And so I always think like, whatever I'm doing today, like, or whatever I think I should be doing, or what I know I should be doing, or saying what I should be saying or not saying what I shouldn't be saying, I'm like. you're not getting on a boat pregnant for eight days today, Katie.

You got this. I think sometimes that grit that sometimes only the school of hard knocks can teach you in some ways, but perspective is everything and sometimes you just have to do a couple laps around the block of life to understand that today, what you're being called to do in your business. scary? Yeah, sometimes it's scary as all hell. But there's also the idea of like, I did it. we did it, we actually did it, and they're happy and there's an inertia then that comes from that that makes the next time you step out to do that thing so much more empowering, liberating. You feel more capable.

Is it still scary as [00:12:00] hell? Yes. In fact, I love what my 8-year-old told my husband the other day. He goes, I don't know if I wanna do that. That seems kind of scary. And she goes, dad, don't you know, we just do life scared. And I was like, yes, yes,

God.

Sometimes you just do life scared and

That should be the title of,

Right? I mean, any grownup who's like, I got this. I'm like, you're lying. Sometimes you just have to do life scared and that's okay too. What's the worst thing to fail? Well then get busy failing faster so you can find where you're gonna succeed. I tell you, everybody's failing in some regard. It's just, fail faster so you can find what you're meant to do. 

and.

your point, is I like to go to a job like to clock in and I like to clock out and I like to do designs, but I don't wanna interact with a client. I don't wanna deal with a homeowner. don't wanna do budgets and project management. And you know what? It's okay. You can still be a kick ass interior designer and do that. And sometimes I think we think that we [00:13:00] have to be out here with our own brick and mortar and our own chart of accounts and our own team and our own everything, or we've not made it in the industry. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Made it to me is when you are doing what you are meant to do to the best of your ability so that when you're doing it, you're losing track of time. 

Hmm

the key. Like I know when I'm knee deep in something and I'm like, darn it, why won't my stomach stop going?

I'm like, ah, it's two o'clock. How did that happen?

mm-hmm.

Like

Yep.

that means I'm in that sweet spot. take a moment and notice that. What was sweet about that sweet spot? Was it that you weren't interrupted? Was it that it was a singular project? Maybe it was 500 calls and you got through your to-do list and you're like, I'm rocking this start stringing those threads together to weave your story.

Yeah, that's so good. And I think many times we will sort of etch in stone that horrible thing that happened to us, but we won't stop and say, oh, that was a really good day, or That was a really good outcome for that project, or that client [00:14:00] really is amazing. They are now what I see is my very best client.

Right. So if we just gave the importance, if we tip the scale a bit for the things that are actually good versus just the things that are always bad, it might change our perspective on a lot of the stuff that we do day to day too. Right?

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

we suck at celebrating success in our culture.

do.

not do it well. 

Yeah.

I'll never forget the first time I had someone say, you've gotta get that tile out of Italy. They're gonna be gone for five weeks.

And I was like, what do you mean they're gonna be gone for five weeks? And they're like, no, no, we need the Italian tile now. They take five weeks off every summer. Who are these people and how do I get to be one of them? Right? But like, there's a, a recharge.

Other cultures have a recharge. Other cultures. I mean, you look at, Mexican culture, I love it. They celebrate everything.

Yes. 

every birthday, every everything. I'm just like, it's another celebration. What are we celebrating today? Like this is amazing. We could learn so much from that. And I think it's really hard.

We don't have it templated, I should say,

Mm-hmm.

Like let me ask [00:15:00] you like how do you celebrate? do you celebrate like when projects are complete or like when you have a breakthrough in your business or you like kneel that client that you're like, that's my best, very best client.

I'm so excited they closed this week. Like, is there a celebration you do 'cause we're not good about that?

You know, not really. I think our biggest celebration is when we have like a list of 10 projects on the board and we are able to wipe that one off the board. I think that's a little celebration. So my team and I get together and we're like, yay. And so, you know, we do try to celebrate, let's say we won an award or we got acknowledged for something, or, something happened that was we will go to dinner or go and have cocktails with them.

You know, things like that. But yeah, not as much as we should, honestly, not as much as, as anyone should. I think that again, those little wins or what build you up and when you were talking about like, you know, when you're doing something that you love, how time flies. I think

Hmm.

I've noticed that many times about myself if I was working on a specific.

Project and not necessarily a design [00:16:00] project, but maybe another like avenue of my business, you know, that I was really excited about. I would wake up in the morning and I would be like, is it five 30? can I go ahead and get up and work? It sort of changes your whole mood for the day when you're truly excited about something.

And that flows into the type of projects that designers take on too, right? Because if you're taking on projects that drain you and exhaust you and the phone rings and you see their, my team has done this before with, with some bad clients early on that I sort of let filter through.

They would see their number, and I'm not answering are you're not answering. I'm like, just gimme the phone. I'll answer. so yeah. It's like finding those right people will make your job easier. Really.

I think it totally is. And two, like whatever it is. And if it's just you and you're like, Katie, I don't have a team, what do I do? Go book yourself a massage. What's your happy place? Like go do something to celebrate. And like we do gift cards 'cause our team's all over the country. So, and it's sometimes it's funny, like sometimes one person won a massage the next time another person wants Costco. 

Whatever.

Kleenex like, you know, whatever works. But like, I think, yeah, when we can do that, [00:17:00] because one thing that I do, and this is super cheesy, but my kids love it. I have an easy button that sits on my desk and whenever something is hard or I'm like, check it off the list, I hit my easy button.

And it's just like, it's a Pavlovian dog thing of like. That was easy.

Yeah,

my kids love it, they'll go do their homework and they'll come into my office and they'll hit the, that was easy button. But I think sometimes it's just programming ourselves because we're more likely to repeat those things that we enjoy and that we feel rewarded for.

And so if you can start doing that, instead of beating yourself up over, this didn't go the way I want. And not to say that you shouldn't reflect on projects and grow from them, that's like smart business strategy. 

Yeah.

It's one thing to sit in your pit for a minute and go, well that wasn't my brightest moment. And that really sucked. And it's another to start hanging curtains in it. So like take your moment, grow from it, but then also move on and celebrate when you win. Celebrate when you win. It is okay to win. And if you have a team, celebrate with them.

'cause we, I always say I stand on the shoulders of giants. The people on our team are amazing [00:18:00] it is such a privilege to work with every single one of them. we do have such a strong company culture and it's just a privilege to partner with these people every single day.

Like that's when you really do feel like you get paid to play. 

well, you do something really unique is that most or all of your team are remote?

All,

All are remote. So your entire team across, 20 states where all of your projects are, are remote. And I think that scares the living daylights outta some people when they think about, first of all, expanding to different areas outside of their, even outside of their city sometimes, but definitely outside of their state is, is terrifying to people.

But adding on remote employees that you can trust with your baby to keep it going and to keep it moving and to even grow it more is even scarier. So tell me how you came up with that whole philosophy of, yes, I want to expand and it sounds like it was out of some client demands and requests and so forth, but when you decided to do that, how did you decide to approach your team hiring in the way that you did? 

[00:19:00] necessity is the mother of invention. This is true.

True.

you knew where I lived, John, you would totally appreciate that statement even more because I am two and a half hours east of Seattle on a gorgeous river with not near enough people in far more wildlife.

Heaven.

yeah, no, 

I like animals more than people, honestly. So

We need to swap for a week. I'm like, I just crave urban environments. Like I literally land. We go to Phoenix every February and I land and I'm like, people, people look at this. There's so many wonderful people. What are they all doing? What are they up to?

What does their day include? This is so great. Everybody has something to do today. And my husband's like, okay, I

always.

Yeah, he'd rather be out there with the animals too. Rest assured.

Yeah.

But yeah, there's not a labor pool to pull on where I'm at. Like, it's

Hmm.

gonna be significant to do what I need to do.

and since moving here about six, seven years ago, my mantra has kind of been, realities be damned because the reality around me doesn't lend itself to this. And then I'm like, oh, buck up buttercup. Okay, you're gonna have to figure this out [00:20:00] and crack this nut in a different way. I would be lying to you if I said Every hire we've made is a success.

Absolutely not. some people do really well with remote work and some people don't. And that isn't a shame game. That is just a reality of how we're hardwired. And so figuring out the characteristics that we look for, in fact, we started using Gallup. They have a great questionnaire that goes through 30 different attributes, not like. what is my favorite color? But like, what do you enjoy working on? how do you work? And so when we teased out Gallup, what we needed for each of the positions on our team, and then we started galloping, everyone coming in, we could really say they're gonna be happy or they're not gonna be happy.

'cause that's what we care about. It's not even, can they do the job, because if you're gonna be happy on our team, you're gonna go 5% above and beyond naturally. And so once we knew that, we started really hiring based on that. And I'll tell you, and one thing I'd love to coach too, is everyone's like, well, I don't [00:21:00] wanna bring on somebody full time.

And I'm like, you don't

All right.

You don't have to. Right? You can hire someone part-time or as needed or There's a ton of people out there doing that. And you can give 'em the Gallup for 50 bucks and figure out who they are, how they work, and then hire for the position you hate. 

I'm like, let's think about that for a minute. Do you need an assistant designer? Well, I'm outta time and I've got more clients. I agree. This is a great problem to have. Why do we need an assistant designer when everyone's coming to you for you, they're not coming for Sally May, your assistant designer, they're coming for you. What do you hate? I hate bookkeeping, Why don't we outsource some bookkeeping so you don't hate yourself on weekends and you can come back recharged on Monday? I never thought about that. Yeah. Best decision I made was outsourcing my bookkeeping, and it's not to say I don't know my chart of accounts, and I know my profit and loss statement and my accounts receivable accounts of payable.

I get all those reports every Monday, so I'm positioned for success for the week, but they're automated. They're there, it's done. I will [00:22:00] tell you, start with the thing you hate the most. That would be my advice. 

No, I agree. I made that list early on and, when I started making the list of things that I hated and things that I, I was like, okay, make the list of things that you love and the things that you hate. And then there's always that in between. That's like. I'm really good at this, but I don't want to spend the time doing it.

Right. So there were those things that are like, yeah, like I can, whatever make changes to my website. Is that the best use of my time? No. Right. That's not, so there are things I think that you have to sort of move outta that gray area into the definite yes or definite no column. But yeah, I totally agree with you there.

But I think, when you're having a remote team or anyone that's not sitting right beside you, like when I expanded my office from Florida to Los Angeles, I moved with the office to la and so my team at that time was all in Florida. So it was all remote work from them. They were in an office space.

We had an office there, but I wasn't there. And so I instantly had to figure out systems and ways that I wanted my company to [00:23:00] still run the way that I was running it when I had my little happy butt in that desk chair at my desk in that office. And when you are forced to your point to sit down and say, okay.

This is happening. Let's figure out a way to do this and to still make it work and to still keep thriving and growing and even scaling your business from there. You'd be surprised at what you can pull out of your little nadin when you really are forced to do that thing that you've been maybe putting off or too afraid of, right?

150%. 

Yeah.

such a good point about that gray area. can do it, but it doesn't bring me joy.

Mm-hmm.

well let's think about that for a minute if you can do it. Yeah. But it doesn't bring you joy. But you could do something that does bring you joy at your billable rate, and you could outsource this for a 25 to 30% total cost of your billable rate. Why not? I tried to tell my husband this about mowing the yard. He seems to say that mowing the yard brings him joy. And after almost 14 years of marriage, I don't know if you can [00:24:00] relate into this, I'm just like, really? That brings you joy, eh? It's growing right back again next week, you feel you've made a difference in like all the hours you have on earth.

You wanna spend them mowing your yard. Like that is your joy quotient. And he's like, I really like it. I'm like, I am married to the oldest man. No, just kidding. And you know, like whatever it is, it's unique to each person. I will

Yeah.

I'm like, why don't you support the economy and pay the high schooler up the street who's dying to mow the yard?

Mm-hmm.

figuring out what that is though, I won't judge other designers. I will judge my husband. But figuring out what that is is so not only important, but then again, back to the acting on it. Find the person who. It is their joy.

I guarantee it's gonna turn out better. 'cause when we

Mm-hmm.

doing what we love, 

Yeah.

in a tangible way, 

Yeah.

 That's why we hire the best and brightest people. And then just turn 'em loose. Like, not that it's not validated trust, it is, it's incremental, validated trust, but also let them go and watch what comes back.

I'm telling you, [00:25:00] autonomy when you give it to the right person is a game changer, 

Yes.

you find someone that is intuitive on what their skillset is and how they can help your company grow, and they really do want to help you grow as a business owner, and then the other part of that is when you actually let them do it, hello?

And then you say, yeah, you are good at this move. Yeah. Move forward. You know, my child, you have done well. Now the student surpasses the teacher. Right? In some ways, and because I'll tell you, I've gone back to projects that I literally. Was just like from the 30,000 foot view of watching them with my team.

And they would keep me updated on weekly updates that we would have, and then we would go to photograph the project on the photography shoot day. And I would walk in to that project, Katie and I would be like, okay, well this is amazing. I had had nothing to do with it, and it is actually better than what I would've come up with.

And I feel a little bit less than right now, but I'm also proud of myself for hiring the right people, you know?

I'm so relieved to hear you say that. 'cause I have felt that so much in the last couple years because you [00:26:00] can't touch every project. It is a 30,000 foot operation and they're still hiring you because you're hiring the right people. Right.

Mm-hmm.

yes, it is so humbling. Like sometimes I'll go through the photos and I'm just like, damn.

Yeah.

got good people doing amazing things and they're out here crushing it and I'm so proud of them and that we hired them and like there's so much happy vibes around that. For me as a business owner, that is why I can't go to an office and work for somebody else, because I love thinking that maybe in some small way I helped put all those pieces together and

Yeah.

is enough for me.

Yeah.

design completely. I don't have to. But if I can let everybody find something they love and put them in the right seat on the bus, and then we get off at the end of the day and everyone's happy, I'm like paid dirt. Like we've just hid it like that, checks every box, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, like it just starts [00:27:00] checking boxes for me of what I need holistically as a human being. 

Yes. It feels so, so good. I'm like patting them on the back with one hand and then myself with the other about what a great job I did. and bring, as you say, hiring them and letting them do their thing. But , that doesn't happen without you having systems in place and processes in place.

And I also think there's a mindset shift that we touched on too, to, you know, again, allow yourself to let go, let your ego say, okay, they're gonna do that, they're gonna do a great job. I've taught them well. So there's that part of it. And then I think there's the part of like having all of the techniques and the systems and saying, here, here is the process for doing this exactly the way that I would focus on this project and the way that I would start that.

So talk to me about how your systems help you grow with your life and, and kind of not against your life in that aspect.

It's such a good question. I think people hear systems and processes and as creative, it's

Zone out.

wa, right? Like, oh,

Yes.

this is what [00:28:00] excites me about systems and processes. They work when people don't, 

Mm-hmm.

are all human and like have babies, we get sick, we go on vacation.

If we're Italians, like I said, we go away for five weeks. Not better. But like people, people will fail, right? And or you had that bad day, or maybe there's that breakup and you come to the office and your brain's like half checked in and your heart's half checked out. so how. does that still help the business grow?

Well, truthfully it doesn't, but your processes are there to catch you and be the guiding light through all of that. And when you know your team and you know, these are humans, at the end of the day, we're all doing just the best we can. And some days great for me and some days it's not. But when the processes are in place, it's my North star.

Yeah.

needs to happen next. I know if someone got hit by a bus tomorrow, there's another person that can step in to that spot that allows me as a business owner to sleep at night. Because if you took all the processes on our board right now, or all the projects and you were like, yeah, [00:29:00] we're taking away your team and here's your projects, I could go through and I could single handedly figure them out.

It would take a hot minute, but it wouldn't be a dumpster fire with a motov cocktail thrown in for fun. Right? They buttress what you do, that'll gives you your time back to being creative because they're working in the background. And the other thing I love about processes, they don't have to constantly be reinvented. I always say it's like an 80 20, 80% of the time your process is gonna work perfectly. 20%, you're gonna tweak it. Or a client's gonna need a slight tweak for client satisfaction or you know, this is gonna need to be changed, your processes should be changing. That's one thing that I think that's hard that I do hear in our industry a lot is stick to your processes.

stick to your process. But like if you're looking at each project objectively and saying what worked and what didn't on this project, I

Right.

is gonna change 

Yeah.

for a specific client a little bit. And to me that's the difference between being the heartbeat designer versus being the actual like boutique elevated [00:30:00] design firm that goes that extra 5%.

Mm-hmm.

I think the value of that, when I start thinking about it through the lens of I get my time back, it works when my people are struggling or they're having an off day, that is what allows you to scale. And then when you onboard someone and they're like, what do I do?

And you're like, well, you know, you're a designer, you're a bookkeeper, you are a, and they're like, yeah, but where's that project at? Or what's going on? Or what's that? They have a spot to stand on to start to know the lay of the land. Right. 

Mm-hmm.

how they seem into the process with the other team.

So we also don't have this, Well that's my job. And we're stepping on toes and who's in what lane? But that didn't get done. 'cause I thought that was your job. No, it's her job. Like it just cleans up so much of the interaction and it gives you efficiency so then you can grow. So yeah, that's why I love processes.

I really, really do.

I do too. I just, I don't know. There's something as you say about knowing that that is there and it almost, I almost envision like a gear just constantly [00:31:00] turning, you know, on its own or a water wheel with the water turning it right. Just, it's just constantly turning. And I know whether someone reaches out to us at 1:00 AM in the morning and schedules a consultation and it pays for it on my website, and then it suddenly it's on everyone's calendar.

I'm like, that's a damn good process right there, that's already working. And I woke up and then that's already scheduled. Everyone has a con confirmation, it's on calendars. And then even from there, the process goes into work about, okay, what do we, how do we handle this consultation? 

What are the processes behind that? And it's just so, such a relief. To know that when you set your business up like that, you don't have to ever worry and you do pivot as you say, of course, because I do think that's important to look at a client and say, all right, they're gonna be this type of client.

Let me add a little, you know, extra time in for this or add a little extra money in for that. But that's part of, as you say, understanding how to be a better business owner and really kind of growing and evolving with your business. But yeah, I don't know what I would be, I know what I would be, I would be nothing without my processes, to be honest with you, because they [00:32:00] really do, they've pulled me outta situations when it was a little hairy, a little scary.

And they've also, to your other point, they've allowed my team to excel because they love knowing that they know what to do in every single situation that comes up. Right. And it's just peace of mind all the way around. early on in my career, I had horrible situation that happened 

With a client and it was a bad, bad situation. And if anyone wants to hear it, it's on episode one of my podcast and it's just awful. But the thing that turned around from that was I did not have a process. I did not have a contract. I did not have any of the things that I know now that I need, obviously in a business to make it run successfully.

But the process part of that was what really stood out to me because I was just sort of like, you know, running around. Like I checked in with his head cut off and then bumper car into everyone because I didn't know what I was even doing that day or even how to do what I needed to do that day.

So those moments of like clarity where you're like, okay, I really screwed that one up. Now let's figure out how to not let that happen again. I think comes in the form of processes and systems.

that is [00:33:00] so well said. It's dead on. It's why I love your creative genius. It's 100% true and it

Well, yeah, you align the same way.

No, that's sweet of you to say. I mean, the other part that's really hard for me in this and like kills me is when designers say, I'm not making enough money. 

I'm not profitable, I'm not profitable. And so we create all these profit courses and I just wanna say, time out. time out. Stop focusing on your profit. You, anyone listening is like, wait, what? But like, really stop focusing on your profit and build the business you believe in with the processes, you know will work.

Or you're willing to try know your target client and go after them with a marketing system and a marketing process that you're committed to. And if your pricing is right, you will not have a profit problem. And so sometimes I think we get so busy as designers because we like glittery things that we chase the glittery thing.

Profit, right? I'm like, yeah, but cart before horse. Like, yeah, gotta build your cart first. Worry [00:34:00] about, and your horse will show up like, or vice versa. you gotta get the first thing first, which is doing, there's a great book out by, Kevin Carroll. He got to prescribe himself his own title at Nike. And he chose Catalyst with a K,

Hmm.

because it's his last name and it's called Little Red Ball. And it's about the lonely work.

Okay.

just doing those things that are not sexy and they're not glittery and they're not fun. 'cause nobody ever said, I looked at my chart of accounts and had a killer day and I'm ready.

Right. You're no, we're all ready for a cocktail at the end of the day. But when you do that and you do all that lonely work and then someone shows up like that client who says, please do indoors, we we're, we wanna blow up your business. You can say, yeah, scary as hell. But I also know that I think we can do it.

Mm-hmm.

And that's the game changer. The game changer to business is knowing that you need these other components of business and then the profit does follow as long as your pricing is right, 

We put [00:35:00] so much focus on profits and I wanna say just time out on the profits for one minute. Build a business you believe in and watch what

It is so funny. Yeah, I agree with that. And they are focused on profits or they really want to just start a huge marketing campaign to bring more clients in. And then I look at this, I call it front stage backstage. I look at their backstage and I'm like, Hmm, you're backstage, girl.

That's a mess. Like, no, no client is going to continue to work with you if you don't have any processes in place. But yet you're wanting to market to those people and then they start to work with you, and then they hate working with you because you're a mess and everything's disheveled and there's no systems in place and there's no rhyme or reason to how you run your business.

But if you have all of that taken care of, then you can bring those people in. And I think the best time to do these processes is a little bit every day when you're busy. But then those times when people are like, oh, I have no clients. I have no idea what to do.

I'm like, yeah, now is when you're gonna go heavy, heavy handed on those processes and get your systems done now, and then when you're finished, ta-da. You can bring in those people and you have this like beautiful machine [00:36:00] working in the background, right?

100% back to the lonely work.

Yeah.

scare you. And if your processes are in place, especially your marketing processes, which is one of my favorite things to coach too. The first thing people lose money and they're like, I'm gonna pull back a marketing. I'm like, bad idea. 

Yeah.

hungry.

I'm not going to the grocery store. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Like you might need food if you're gonna continue to work, right?

Mm-hmm.

yeah, it's my, oh gosh, I just love coaching. To that like, now is the time to do that lonely work. Like now is the time to bear down, because if you put those systems in place, you will not be back here again. If this feels uncomfortable to you, this is not a cycle you have to ride. This is something you can fix if you're willing to get in there. grit again, grit. work. I'm not saying it's your funnest day. Get your easy button, hit it at the end of the day and have a cocktail. However, it works for you to reward yourself, but man, if you really are interested in growing a business, it's what you have to do.

Because otherwise, I had a coaching client a few weeks ago and she's, I'm like, okay, so you get up in the morning, you sit down, you have [00:37:00] these contractors you're working with, how do they know what they're doing every day? And she goes,

Right.

up my Google task list I start randomly assigning tasks.

Oh dear.

Glad to hear you responded the way I did.

I just had a visceral reaction to that.

Yeah, you and I are both like, I don't know about you. My blood pressure goes up, my heart rate goes up, my cortisol level goes up. I start sweating. And I was like, how's that going? And she's like, well, it's been working. And I'm like, but is it 'cause you're here?

And she's like, well, maybe not. I'm like, yeah, this is not sustainable. Like what happens if you get hit by a bus on the way into work and you can't assign tasks? Does anybody know what they're doing? Do they consistently have the same tasks so they get better at the tasks and they bring you creative ideas of how to do them better? And I was like, that, that right there, that is why you need a process and not a checklist if, and this is so typical, but I love a good sticky note, right? And you remember those old sticky note ads where the squirrel would sticky note the inside of their tree trunk every year

Oh yeah.

their nuts are.[00:38:00] 

I mean, have them right here.

there's no shame in that game. I love my sticky notes. I had to upgrade to like an actual notebook so I can actually scroll back and find it instead of being like, where did I put the sticky note? So it's like sticky notes on steroids. 

Yeah. Or you move them to your desktop sticky notes, the ones that are actually part of your computer, right?

yes, I went digital. But like, if, if you find yourself, like that's been my challenge to myself a lot is if I find myself sticky noting or my notebook getting outta control, I'm like, Katie, you're not using your project management software. You've gotta get back to project management software. When you come in in the morning, what tasks has your team assigned you?

That's how that should be working.

Mm-hmm.

should be so many systems that those systems are self solving and they're assigning you even as the CEO back to what you need to get done. Is it the simple thank you note? Is it the simple, I need you to review this. They should almost be batting balls to you if you're batting 'em all out.

We don't have a system. 

That is so well said. And I agree. when my team casually mentioned something to me on a call or on a text message and says, oh, can you do this? [00:39:00] Make an Asana task for me. I tell them, make it right now. Put a don't just make it. and that's the other part, don't make it open-ended. Don't just say, do this, put a date to it.

Right. That's the other part. We have to hold our own feet to the fire when it comes to that. So I just, I require of them, to make a task for me and be specific in that task of what you're asking me for. Don't just say, find a sofa, tell me what size of the sofa, what legs you want on it, how high you want, the seat, the back, all the things.

Right. And put a date to it, put a flipping date to it or else I will never get to that. It'll sit there and just, fester up before I even know what's going on with it, you know? 

100%. It'll end up at the bottom of my pile and it might get done before the, next World War iii, like

Yeah. Because yeah, they may think it's an A task and you look at it as a, as a C or D task, and it's just because there was no communication there. And speaking of communication, I want to talk about that because I know you also teach designers how to handle communication and as you say it, from contract to completion of the project.

So I am an advocate of [00:40:00] over communication as far as what the client needs to know from us as far as updates, as far as this is happening as far, far as timelines, because I don't want that, you know, weird phone call. We, they don't have our cell phones, our clients don't, but they have email of course in our office phone.

I don't want that awkward email or awkward phone call saying, I didn't know what was going on because you didn't tell me. So what do you think there, what are some common mistakes that you see that designers make when it comes to communication with our clients and even past that point, maybe even communication with tradespeople and anyone else associated.

With our projects, and then how can we fix those communication errors that we see?

I love, love, love that question. Most often it's scatterbrain communication.

Hmm.

I need this from a client text. Six, six, text, text, text. Right? No, no, no, no, no. Timeout. You've gotta systemize your communication because guess what's gonna happen? They're gonna be at work for the day. They're gonna come home, they're gonna have dinner, they're gonna put their kids to bed, and nine o'clock they're gonna text you back.

Is that when you want a text coming through? [00:41:00] I imagine not.

Nope.

You want your evening. And so we teach our clients, we teach them good communication habits. We teach them bad communication habits. 

That's interesting. The bad part of it. 

We do. if we start texting them at all hours and we start saying, we need this, or we just pick up at the phone and call them any old time they think they get to do the same with us.

Very well said. 

like,

Continue.

want that. That's not the business I wanna run. I have business hours and I run it as a business.

This is a respectful, mutually beneficial, goal-oriented business where we can enjoy each other's company along the way.

Hmm.

If you wanna go out for a cocktail, wait until the project's over. I kind of like the therapy model. Therapist can't date they can't go to dinner, they can't be friends with their clients until, I think it's like years.

years after they're out of their therapy practice.

just creates clean boundaries, right? it's not like, and then, oh, I need a favor. Can you swing by and just look at the wallpaper I was thinking about for the powder room? cause now all of a sudden we've crossed into the friendship lane, so now we think we get favors.

And that creates a lot of [00:42:00] awkwardness so it's the over under and the how. , if you're firing a Cajillion tax off to a client a day, I guarantee you, you are annoying the hell out of them.

Mm-hmm.

I always say, and this is what we do in our firm, Monday updates every Monday they get an email. This is what's going on with your project this week. It helps them manage their teams, their subcontractors. Anything we need from them is highlighted in gold and we let them know we can't move forward without this piece.

So anytime in our welcome packet, anytime you see gold in your Monday email, we need you and we need you. Now, by the same token for residential, I usually recommend Fridays. And the reason why is they have the weekend to work through it with their spouse, whoever else is involved, and get back to you before you launch your week on Mondays.

Yeah.

same process. And then it allows, the schedule. I always think, gosh, give them a Gantt schedule so they know there's a completion date to their project, and then scaffold out of that with all of your subs, whatever you need. they can start planning like we're gonna do install this week. You probably wanna go on vacation. [00:43:00] Like that would be a good day for you to be gone because it's gonna get way worse before it gets better. And everybody loves a good reveal. Come back after you've had dinner in a cocktail. The cocktail will help, right? Like if you start managing those expectations out of the gate, they're going to fall in dance step with you.

It's just like a dance partner. Somebody has to lead, somebody has to follow. If you aren't leading, guess who is gonna client? 

Mm-hmm.

to be. 'cause then you are the dance partner along for the ride. They're driving, well, I can't do this and I can't do that, and I can't. this was the schedule. Like this is where we're at, this is what's gonna happen. We've had time to plan for it. And it's not to say you don't flex. Like I said, there's the 20% to the processes where we flex, but the biggest mistake is the bad habits how we communicate. And then also they are gonna sense you have processes and then they're gonna go, oh gosh. So you mean if I can't let the tile person in? On this point in the chart, all of these other things [00:44:00] move. Mm-hmm. Happy to do it, but your completion

Yeah.

changed, so I just wanna make sure you're good with it. You'll be shocked at how many times it'll be like, I figured out a way to let the tile person in. Like, it

Yes.

to shift. And I think, but that is you having processes in place, teaching them that you're gonna be the leader of the dance, and then you having a process whereby they know they're gonna be communicated with, not over communicated with, not under communicated with. 

Right?

know what is on schedule for the week, you should be able to give them a really good Friday update if you're a residential designer.

Mm-hmm.

And

Yeah.

your tradespeople, it's humility and curiosity. It's a lot of humility and curiosity. as designers, we come in and we're like, no, I want it this way and there's a reason why and da dah, dah, dah, instead of like. This is what I drew. How do you feel about that?

Like, do you think this is a smart decision based on light location, other things going on in the room, whatever it may be. They'd be like, [00:45:00] yeah, so you can do a really thin grout line, but the manufacturer spec on this is Ons sanded at three eights and here's why. Do you wanna find a different tile or do you wanna go ahead and do this? And our team won't catch everything. But they know if they can approach us and say like, yeah, you don't wanna do that,

It's a respect. 

Right.

Yeah.

again, I think it's the relationship, but it is like, this is what they do every day.

And just like you want your client to trust you to lead the dance, your tile installer lead the dance a little you're gonna learn something from him and that painter, there's gonna be a reason why he's doing what he is doing. the question, just be interested, show up for them.

Realizing that like your vision is one thing on paper, and that's super cute, but these are the people who are actually bringing it to life. And if you show that you care about their craftsmanship, that makes such a difference back to the 5%. When you care 5% more, they feel that, and I guarantee you, they may take the extra time to go back and cut in that edge differently because they know you care [00:46:00] about them and the project and they'll be like, eh, we'll just take an extra minute and do that.

That is so, so true. My mind goes back to a designer that I had early on in my business and I hired her because of her skillset, and she was great. However, I learned later that every single trades person on the job site hated her and how she was talking down to them and not respecting them and not valuing them, and it's sort of.

Trickled its way out. You know, like one person would give a little hint that something was said and then another person, and then suddenly the homeowner tells me what they overheard. And then I'm like, okay, this is turning into a big old snowball of a mess. So I had to pull her aside and say, okay, listen, we don't know everything.

To your point, they are the experts. They love it when you ask them how something should be done instead of being the design dictator and saying, this is it. There's no other avenues to take. I love that you mentioned that, because I think that part of the communication is often overlooked by designers who are striving for perfection and looking for the perfect project and looking for that [00:47:00] project to, go very smoothly.

They're worried about their own reputation and in the meantime, they're sort of trampling everyone else in the pathway to get there for their own perfection, which will never be achieved anyway, by the way. but when I hear you speak about, communication and all the things. I see that there's an alignment with sort of what you do with multifamily and with commercial projects and with residential because it does involve that sort of like changing just a bit on the process as you're moving along and what I also heard from you was that there is also a win if process.

There's a process that happens if this happens or when this happens, here is what we do. So it's almost like a part two, like a sequel to your process in a way, right? When you have that, this is what happens if, right. Does that ever happen to you when you say like, oh, okay, that happened, now we do this.

Here is that exact process that we followed. You have that process laid out as well. I'm sure you do. 

Oh gosh. I wish every time, I mean, every time you think, oh, I know what this project is gonna be, it's like curve ball, [00:48:00] plot twist. 

Yeah.

There's always something that you're like, oh, I didn't see that coming. Like we had a contractor, who was working on a high rise in downtown Columbus.

We designed it and the sink wouldn't fit with the a DA compliant portion underneath, and so he just decided to turn it 90 degrees.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, just

not the right answer,

right around and installed it. And I just remember walking out and being like, huh, well you don't see that every day. and our team came back and I'm like, so the sink, huh? They're like, can't make it up. I'm like, maybe call in for a new sink. Noted. But then don't install the miss on a 90 degree turn. ' And what was crazy is the countertop had been installed 'cause it was an under mount sink. So they

fabricated the countertop, kept the sink, slapped the whole situation in there for us to find.

And I was like, we didn't hire them. I don't know why they feel that they did this and then it came out that all their subs hated working for them. And I realized, okay, maybe it really isn't a [00:49:00] me problem.

Mm

but yeah, I think a lot of it, it comes back to your internal stakeholders. So

hmm.

have project management software, which is fabulous. We use something similar to Asana, but it's, I prefer it dramatically. I burned Asana down after they rearranged my boards involuntarily. really bothered me. And so I went to, something called fiy

hmm.

really love. It's kind of like Asana, but there's a visual element which I

Oh, okay.

But then we also slack. So even though we're a remote team, if we slack somebody, like we're expecting a response.

I love Slack.

Yeah. And so our team's just gotten used to it, mostly because we get

Mm-hmm.

well, but it's like, I'm gonna be out two hours for a dentist.

Great. We'll slack you when you come back, it's the first thing you're gonna see.

Yep.

an understanding in our company culture. But then our internal stakeholders understand those contractors understand like, this is a safe place. Let's problem solve this together. 

it's creating a safe spot for your team to problem solve, even if they created the problem.

Mm-hmm.

the worst thing to find out about is to find out about it from a client

Mm-hmm.

a job [00:50:00] walk or one of your subs. Like I think it's our job as leaders and owners to create a place where they can communicate when they don't feel good about something, when they don't feel good about the client, the job, the design. thing we just did on Monday, on our Monday kickoff call, where we go through all our boards, is I said, look, we're going into summer. is a thing. Kids are out of school. Schedules change, people vacation like slack. Me. One thing that you need to make this summer feel successful for you. 

Hmm.

you need more flexibility? Is it that you really need your mornings free? Because you've gotta get Johnny to camp. But if Johnny doesn't get to camp, you can't focus and you do not need to be bothered when you're trying to get lunch buckets done and people out the door, like, what is the one thing that you need to make this summer feel really, really good for you?

And I loved what one woman on our team said, who I just adore. And she's like, I'm just tired. really just tired. Like I need sleep because. lot of our clans are East coast, so we start our day at six [00:51:00] Coast for all of us West coasters. And it goes early and it goes hard. And I was like, for the summer, why don't we try doing our kickoff call at eight West Coast time so you can sleep?

And she was like, oh my gosh, it'd be amazing. And I'm like, I don't think like two hours is gonna kill anybody because we have systems in place again. You know what you should be doing two hours should not change that reality. And if it doesn't, it's my job to fix that or figure out what's going on.

Mm-hmm.

take care of the people who take care of you.

I love that. I love that you're saying communication not only goes towards and from the client, but towards and from your team. I'm the same way. I try to listen and I try to make the time for myself and remind myself to have, open office hours, For people to reach out to me.

It's not all the time, But if you. Set that time aside and say, these are my office hours. And it could be even for remote people, these are my office hours to send me messages and expect immediate responses from me. 

But also, as you said, to listen to them. I had a team member who I thought was a great client we were working with. I thought she was, [00:52:00] you know, this is my, again, my 30,000 foot view. I thought she, everything was appearing great, she was purchasing, it was going smoothly. And then I hear from my lead designer who says, you know, John, she has to go or I have to go.

And I was like, whoa.

do we get here?

How did we go from zero to like 100 in like one second, like, that's insane. And then, and it, and it turned out it had been snowballing as it had gone along, but she had not revealed to me that she was delayed in making responses to her emails or that she was delayed in approving or delayed in paying.

So I realized that I needed to do a better job of sort of reminding my team to say, Hey, come to me, let me know more on a regular basis. So now part of my regular meeting that we have, we do hours on Wednesday, but part of that meeting is to say, what am I missing?

What, what am I overlooking? What did I not ask you? Is there something that you want to tell me that will make you feel better? And I love that you ask your team the same thing as well, because they love to know. You are appreciating their expertise and you are [00:53:00] appreciating their input.

And I know a lot of people are listening and maybe thinking like, well, I'm just one person. Yeah, you're a one person show. Now you're going to grow to some aspect down the road. You're going to hire someone in some capacity to work with you, whether it is a, you know, someone offsite or someone with you in your office, you're going to have that person.

So I just encourage them to listen to what we're saying from the people who have team members and from the people who have had those ups and downs with them. Because it is a learning lesson that is not always revealed to you until something happens, you know, and then you're like, I should have done something differently there.

I liked that your team member was honest enough to tell you that they were tired. and that's a very honest answer from someone. And I think Katie, and I know you probably hear this too, there's a lot of designers right now who are just exhausted.

They're exhausted with so many things about their business. They love design, for instance. But the business side of design, they don't love and they're just tired and exhausted. What would you say to that person who's [00:54:00] listening to us and saying, I love all these things. These sound great.

I don't know if I can put one more foot in front of the other tomorrow and continue in this business because I hate the business side of it so much. What would you say to them?

I'd give them a hug. People need more hugs. I feel that. I feel every

Virtual hugs to everybody right now. Virtual hugs.

everybody Being in this is hard. It is hard. And there are days you want to quit and I just had a day like that on Tuesday. I had this keyboard warrior and it was a client and, you know, working in, I'm gonna regale you with one more story, but it'll be short.

I love it. That's a fun term keyboard warrior. I like that.

was a keyboard warrior and it was horrible, John, because this client, you know, they haven't been the easiest client, but like, they also haven't been the hardest. They're, they just require a lot. And that's okay. After 20 years. That's okay. And we knew it going in, that wasn't a surprise, there was a couple issues with the [00:55:00] furniture. And so I said, well, this is why we don't deliver in an active construction zone. That's why we had you sign a waiver. Like, okay. And got on and left us a horrible review. this is why relationships and communication matter, because I called his two bosses up, I have a relationship with, who's lovely human and said, I just don't, I don't know about this.

Like, what do you think? And that individual was quite irate. Absolutely not. He does not get to say that he does not have authority to do that. And that is not even the case. And we will get this down two hours later. It was down. back to communication and having relationship, but that was hard. It's really hard to see someone type that about your company when you bent over backwards.

Yeah. I had the same thing happen and it was with a child of the homeowner. And I was like, first of all, you are not writing my checks. [00:56:00] Second of all, everything you're saying is erroneous. So I called the father and I said, if this doesn't get taken down soon and within the next, hour or so, I will stop your project.

Because everything that this kid is saying is lying and wrong and incorrect. because you know, we're in the midst of a major construction and if you sort of use that leverage with them, sometimes you'd be amazed at the power that you actually have.

You totally, totally do. 

Yeah. 

that's so interesting. 'cause like you, your communication style, I love that it's direct and like, here's the, here's what happened, here's the consequence. I am more, and this is funny 'cause I am direct, but I'm more like, this is what happened. I don't know.

Do you feel okay about that being there? and that was just like the little teeny little floodgate I needed to open for her

Yeah.

all on her own too. the reason why I highlight the differences between those, because whatever your communication style is, is totally like, okay to run down that path.

There's not a right way to do this. But those days are hard. Like,

Yeah.

Like, how did you feel when you saw that pop up in your email? 

even worse, it didn't even pop up in an [00:57:00] email. It popped up like a week later when my husband accidentally found it, and that's when I was like, are you kidding me right now? 

no,

So no, it was out of the blue. Totally. Yes, there are those days, and we just have to figure out ways, I think, to get over that slump that we're feeling that day. what do you tell someone if that slump or that mindset goes on for more than a day, or maybe they're really down in the dumps with their business for like a week, what's your advice there?

anything that they can do right now to maybe change and I'm not saying everyone's in this state, but I know that there are people who are, and I know that they're looking for help right now in different areas, but I didn't know if there was a piece of advice you would give them to sort of like, get them going

Stop

other than the hug.

minus, have a hug Stop. think sometimes we feel we have to keep going and I will push through and I'll power through and I will, and it's like, it's only gonna make it worse. It's like going to the gym day after day after day after day. It's only making it worse. You have to have time to recover.

[00:58:00] And so I would just say stop for a minute. Stop until you can breathe then figure out the why. do you feel this way? Like what is your why for even being in this business? What do you enjoy about it? Is there another way to manifest that? What's burning you out? Like you were saying, I love this when you're like, these are the things I love.

These are the things I doubt. And there's the gray area in between. We gotta figure out,

Mm-hmm.

have a list like that? there's nothing worse and you see it every day with people you interact with. I'm like, why are you in this job? 

Mm-hmm. 

and it takes courage to. I love design, but I wanna do it differently. I only wanna do vacation rentals, or I only wanna draft, or I only want to because that is where I'm happy that there is zero shame in that game. And maybe you just needed a minute. And when you take a day, go on a hike, go to the ocean, water always speaks to my soul. Like whatever it [00:59:00] is that speaks to your soul, go take a day and do it. And then maybe you come back and you're like, I don't need to change a dang thing. I was just tired. 

Hmm.

tiring time. We don't know what's going on with tariffs. Clients are uncertain. The economy's uncertain.

Everything's uncertain. Gosh. I mean everything. Right? I mean,

Yeah. Totally. 

up in the morning. My husband's like, so what's new in the world? I'm like, oh, rumors of World War II and

Yeah.

 You are not feeling at your business because you're having a bad day. Everybody has a bad day. it's like the song. So you had a bad day. Yeah. So you had a bad day. It's okay. You're human. And like, give yourself the space to be human. And if it does, go on say, does this meet my why anymore? Like I intentionally postponed doing interiors until my youngest kid went to kindergarten. I was an old mom, never knew if I would get to be a mom. And I wanted to enjoy that. I really wanted to enjoy that. And even to this day, my Calendly doesn't let anyone book an appointment I need to leave [01:00:00] to go pick up my kiddos because that's a different job set. And I always call my most important clients.

I can do a lot of projects over, but I can't do them over. 

Good boundary.

Yeah, know your why. Know, why are you doing it for your people? Are you doing it like, and this gets more into legacy building. Do you wanna sell your business one day? Do you wanna leave it to your kids someday? 

I mean, I've had mom say to me that like, I love being a mom, but like when I sit down at my computer to create that, there's joy. Like I get joy and I get lost in that, and I'm like, there's no shame in that 

Mm. That's the why, right? That's, that's their why. I, you have no idea how aligned you and I are on that because before I will even coach someone, before I will even allow them to move to the, let's say, process as part of my courses that I have, I start with core values and your why. And if you know.

Wholeheartedly what the reason is that you came into this business. The reason that you wake up every day excited about touching fabric, [01:01:00] swatches and, and, and wall covering and going into cad. If you remember that on those bleak dark days, it will literally be a hand that reaches down in that pit and pulls you out of it instantly.

But you have to know it, and you have to remember it on those days when it's not sunshine and rainbows. Right?

150%. 

Yeah.

think business coaches don't have coaches, I'll never forget

Oh, please.

with saying that to me. She's like, what's your why?

Yeah.

I don't know my why. I just know that I'm really happy when I get to build a business. And I see people succeed in their happy place.

And then we create happy clients. Like, can happy be my why? And I think she was like, well, most people just wanna earn enough money to go on vacation or they wanna, and I was like, I like happy, like and even. I, I don't even know how to explain it, John, but even on my most pissed off days when I'm like about that three star review, I'm so glad got taken down, but like even [01:02:00] on those days, we're joking with our team and it's still It's, my gosh, can you believe that little guy, keyboard warrior, get after him buddy. You know, and like there's still this, like, there's this, this lightness and this like, you've gotta be freaking kidding me. And then somebody will use an inappropriate term who never uses an inappropriate term, and then we're all like, it must be really bad.

Right? And like you know, there's just this levity to it and this joy of, and comradery of we're in it together. And to me that's the why of like, especially living in a place where it's so remote. team has become a huge part. In fact, my husband even said to me, he goes, I feel a little bit replaced.

And I said, well, why? And he goes, you have so much fun. You guys work really, really hard, but it seems like you really like them. And I'm like, I really do. What's your why, John? I wanna know your why.

Oh my gosh. You know, and it's funny that you asked because I had the same thing happen with a business coach early [01:03:00] on as well, and where I was like, you know, I don't really, at that time I was like, I don't really know. And then when you sit down and think about it, there are so many parts of it.

I love the emotional connection that a client has with the reveal of a project. And I know we all do, but I love it because when you were. Truly touching that person's life. And when you are truly sort of, going past that outer surface and touching their heart in ways that you maybe didn't even know you were doing throughout the process, that is the thing that I'm like, I don't even know of any check that could be written to pay me enough for that.

We had a client once, and he, and I've told this story before, but he was sort of this macho ish kind of guy, he was a super nice guy for sure, but also had a little bit of a tough exterior and wouldn't always show emotions on things. we finished the project and my team is there and we were just doing our regular reveal, like, okay, hey, everything's accessorized, everything's styled.

It's ready for you to please come home and look at it. He came in and cried. He literally cried 

love that.

I, it was so beautiful. Katie [01:04:00] and I looked at my team and I was like. I'm gonna talk to you after this is over because I have something to tell you. And, I let him experience it. I let him go through all the things and he told us why he was crying and why he loved it so much.

And it turned out that it had reminded him of some of the family members of his past and his history of things. But I told my team afterwards, I said, don't ever forget this moment because this moment is going to be that thing where you can reach to when you have a bad client, where you can remember when there is a bad review or there somebody says something negative.

Remember this moment because the negative will try to overpower it. But for me, it's that emotional connection that a client has with our projects and knowing that we just go through our processes from beginning to end and, you know, everything's going smoothly, but we're actually changing lives throughout that.

So that's my why is the changing lives and the emotional connection of it that people get.

I love that. It takes me back to the old visa ads when they're like, the cost of a milkshake, $10, the cost of a puppy, 300, the cost of time spent with family. Priceless, 

[01:05:00] Priceless. Yes.

gospel truth. Like when you find, that'd be interesting to think about, like if you're, if you don't monetize your, why is it more meaningful?

Because it starts to permeate every project, whether

Mm.

or the joy over the people you work with 

So true.

I feel like there's just that deeper, meaning that just, yeah, it's so powerful.

It so is. Well, I could talk to you for hours. Literally, like, this is like, I feel like we just are so much on the same page with everything and I, and I love every single thing that you've had to say today. And I just want everybody to rewind this episode and listen to it two or three times because you're gonna hear something that you didn't hear from Katie the first time.

You're gonna hear it the second time 'cause it's so, so good. But before we wrap up, I wanna do my favorite part of the show, which I like to call, drop it like it's hot. Okay.

I love it. I really appreciate the shoulder twist with it. I'm like, I go to

exactly. Yeah. If you can't see, go to YouTube and watch the shoulder twist. Yeah. [01:06:00] But, but in this, it's just quick, quick questions and fast answers and kind of whatever comes to your mind. Okay. For these. Okay. So kind of just one sentence to a couple sentence answers, but what is one word that you would be using now to describe the future of interior design?

Technology. Buckle up. If you haven't figured out ai, you haven't cracked that nut, even for writing your social media, your blog, your whatever. Don't be afraid. Take your head outta the sand, stop sunburning your backside and get after it. 'cause technology is gonna rock our world in every single way. 

Next, your favorite mindset shift that changed everything for you.

Hmm, great one. in the words of my 8-year-old, do it afraid. 

don't wait till you feel comfy doing it, then you're way too comfortable. No, it's okay to do life afraid. Put yourself beyond your comfort zone. It may not be perfect the first time, but you may be shocked at what you can accomplish.

your child is so smart. Like that really needs to be put on a t-shirt and given out to every designer at every trade show for the rest of our lives.

Right.

so good.

I learned from [01:07:00] her. I

That's so good. from the mouth of babes. Right. And then lastly, what is one process that you swear by for your business?

Get one hell of a contract and get one hell of a welcome packet. That starts everything else in your business and your relationship with that client. Manage your expectations in the welcome packet as far as communication hours, how your Friday updates. Put it all in there because remember, you either are gonna be the leader or the follower in the dance, and you pick out of the gate

mm Gives me goosebumps just hearing you say those words. Thank you. Can we get married? I know we're both married, but can we get married? I think, I think we would just at least be, you know, the designer, WW partners or some, I don't know. This is so good. I love,

Yes, you can. You can be my corporate husband. 

I love it. I've got many sister wives apparently across the country.

there

way I, the way I sort of partner up with designer friends, I love that.

I'm here for that man. With good people. When you find good people and they're changing your industry for the better like

Yeah.

and what you've created, it's [01:08:00] just, it makes my heart sing. 

Same for you. It's so great when you can, speak the truth, give such great advice like you do. I just wanna thank you for bringing all the insight and all the heart today. But before we go, tell everybody how to find you and I think you have some resources on your website that they can grab as well.

We do, especially if you're a commercial designer and you're looking for a really killer commercial design contract. We have a 12 page residential design contract. if you're like, I think I wanna coach with her, great. Come book a discovery call.

You get 15 minutes of my time free. Hit me with your best shot in the words of Pat Benetta, like, come see me. We're over at Success by Design Coach. 

Everything that Katie's talked about today as far as where to find her is in the show notes, so don't worry about that. You guys, I have you covered there. I can't tell you how much fun this has been.

and for all of you listening, if Katie's journey has inspired you in some way, then please listen and please act on it. Because whether it's creating your process or, hiring new employees, or you're thinking about having remote workers or listening to [01:09:00] your communication methods, I promise you there is something here for everybody.

And you literally highlighted all the high points for me of what makes a successful design business and also what keeps it running. So thank you for your honesty. Again, thank you for just getting clarity to it. Right. It was so good. So, so good. This is like 1 0 1.

Well, I'm just so thankful and John's being exceptionally kind, but like you should come over and listen to his episode on our show because there's more wisdom from John than you are getting on his show and you should come listen to his episode. hopefully we can put that in your show notes so that everyone can hear more of your creative genius.

'cause it was such a pleasure to have you on the show.

You are too kind. Yes. Please don't listen to that episode as well. I will put the link in the show notes because we had just the same amount of fun over there, if not more. Katie, I adore you. Thank you so much.

My pleasure and my privilege, Thanks for tuning into this episode of the McLean Method Podcast. I'm so grateful you made it all the way to the end because that tells me that you're ready to do the work that truly transforms your brand, [01:10:00] your business, and your life. If you want more tools, trainings, and behind the scenes looks at what I'm building next.

Head over to McLean method.com and don't forget to follow along on Instagram at the McLean Method for even more drops of brilliance. And remember, my friend, your brilliance is your brand. Don't dim it, design it. I'll see you next time.