Ever feel like you're running on empty? That's what Matt and I are ironing out today on Church Psychology, shining a light on the enigmatic beast known as fatigue. It's not just about falling asleep at your desk or needing that extra shot of espresso in your latte; we're talking the full spectrum - physical, emotional, and even spiritual fatigue.
Let's face it, in this fast-paced world it's easy to fall into the trap of distraction or 'vegging out' as an escape, skewing our understanding of what real rest looks like. It's a pervasive issue, one that even sneaks its way into the pulpit, creating a unique form of pastoral fatigue. Intriguing, isn't it? We're discussing why it's so hard for many, especially pastors, to not only recognize but also admit their fatigue. It's a conversation that's long overdue.
But don't think we're leaving you in the lurch! We're also exploring the balance of carrying your own burdens and the necessity of sharing them, tying it all together with insights from scripture. So, come join us on this journey, there's a seat saved just for you. Together, let's redefine what it means to rest, recharge, and handle fatigue in a healthy manner.
Show Notes:
Ever feel like you're running on empty? That's what Matt and I are ironing out today on Church Psychology, shining a light on the enigmatic beast known as fatigue. It's not just about falling asleep at your desk or needing that extra shot of espresso in your latte; we're talking the full spectrum - physical, emotional, and even spiritual fatigue.
Let's face it, in this fast-paced world it's easy to fall into the trap of distraction or 'vegging out' as an escape, skewing our understanding of what real rest looks like. It's a pervasive issue, one that even sneaks its way into the pulpit, creating a unique form of pastoral fatigue. Intriguing, isn't it? We're discussing why it's so hard for many, especially pastors, to not only recognize but also admit their fatigue. It's a conversation that's long overdue.
But don't think we're leaving you in the lurch! We're also exploring the balance of carrying your own burdens and the necessity of sharing them, tying it all together with insights from scripture. So, come join us on this journey, there's a seat saved just for you. Together, let's redefine what it means to rest, recharge, and handle fatigue in a healthy manner.
Show Notes:
Hello my friends, this is Dr David Hall with Church Psychology. Today, matt and I just kind of have a little venting going on. In this episode we talk about fatigue. This isn't a superstructured episode, but I do feel there were some just good things that came out of the conversation for both of us on a personal level and hopefully it has some resonance for those as you're just approaching, putting meaning and even permission for yourself. What is it to feel tired, and to feel tired on a few different levels, not just physically but emotionally and otherwise? What leads us to it? What are the most helpful and effective ways of processing it and dealing with it? That's what we get into today. I hope you join us for it.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at ChurchPsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and also leave us a review as we start. If we are to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work Well. Welcome everybody to the Church Psychology podcast. My name is Matt Schuderman. I'm once again joined by Dr David Hall. Hey, David, hey Matt. Hey, it's good to be back with you and for all those listening, thanks for enjoying the ride with us. We're still rolling. We hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 1:We're not going anywhere yet. Yeah, yeah, whether you're enjoyed or not, we're still here.
Speaker 2:You're like, yeah, it's gonna be like watching the like trends fall of like. I don't think anybody listened to that one, David, you know.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay.
Speaker 2:More and more.
Speaker 1:You know and we said this in recent episodes appreciate for those who are finding us and for those who are just keeping on with us in this journey. We're gonna do a looser format today. Usually, you know, we're coming in with some measure of an outline, but today get prepared people.
Speaker 1:We're gonna talk a little bit about fatigue Off the cuff. Well, I'd like to do a deeper episode, like on the psychology of Sabbath, because I think that's really fascinating. There's some good research behind it, but I didn't have the capacity to pull up that research today. So we're, and fatigue is a part of that. So yeah, Matt.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:In life and here's the the, the teen up the first question. I find for myself that, you know, not everything is equally as fatiguing, but certain things I do find fatiguing often are things that will show up fairly regularly. So, within your comfort capacity, as I'm springing this question on you in the middle of recording like what do you find are the comfort capacity?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are the things that you find that that fatigue you the most, and what do you when you think about being fatigued, what does that mean? Is it physical, emotional, kind of all that?
Speaker 2:So things that, yeah, things that fatigue me the most, don't question.
Speaker 1:David Some questions from pompous, from pompous therapists.
Speaker 2:So this podcast.
Speaker 2:No the that's a tough well it's. It's a good question, because there it makes me think on things that I have to really assess. Does that truly fatigue me? And you know I if you haven't heard some of my story I'm a dad of a six year old and four year old. You know we do therapy most days, you know, david and I and, and that, and actually just before getting on this podcast, we were talking about, like, some fatiguing situations and I was reflecting on a previous counseling session that was really tough. And so you know like, and so it's I hesitate to even say my kids, because I'm a proud parent, like I love being a dad, you know, and I would give my life for my children, but they fatigue me. There are times when you know they're just on their moods or they haven't eaten or slept well, and that really wears me out.
Speaker 2:You know I'm an introvert, I think.
Speaker 2:Through the years, though, I've noticed there's this concept of an am ambivert, I think like there's this like in between section, but I'm more naturally, I think, an introvert.
Speaker 2:So a lot of time talking to people, a lot of time in public spaces, I enjoy, but then we're out real bad, real quick, and so if I have a lot of that and I haven't done a really good job of like taking care of myself or, as we use the term, self care in counseling, like then I get real fatigued and so things like that. You know, and we talk about the concept of burnout in the counseling profession and I don't think I've ever crossed that, but I've gotten close to it at times In an old or job. When I was working in kind of community mental health, there were some requirements on how many people you would see a week and those got pretty high, you know, like closer to 30 kids or families, and when, when, when, having that kind of pacing, I would definitely feel the fatigue, you know. So I'm talking about, you know, family life and work life and very natural things that probably a lot of people feel in various ways depending on kind of your makeup.
Speaker 1:Those are kind of off the cuff, fatiguing thoughts, you know you know and you the as we connect with different people that listen to this podcast and even, as Matt and I think about quote, who do we make this for? And I would generally describe we make this for the church in the big C, but you know it's that highlights certain people more in it people that work. You know a lot of therapists and educators really engage, lay leaders. I know also, specifically, a lot of clergy pastors are people listening to it and you know, matt, you work as a professional counselor in certain spaces. You're also a pastor and working in that kind of bivocational sort of thing.
Speaker 1:You're not like a senior pastor where you know you don't have a regular preaching teaching schedule. Right, say yeah, but you've got multiple spaces to be in. There's the family and you bring that up. You know, as someone who isn't a parent myself, I still walk with a lot of people who are parents and that disclaimer you gave I'm saying like it's not that I don't love my kids and I think we assume to love something means we're not going to find it fatiguing and I think, if anything, the opposite is true To love something opens ourselves to be fatigued by it in a deep way.
Speaker 2:Well, that redefines or defines in a new way the concept of love is that to love something passionately is not necessarily the fact that it gives you such great feelings all the time.
Speaker 1:you know love is yeah, the true meaning of passion is to suffer. Right, and we use that phrase and we got and things that I feel generally indifferent about. I don't find that taxing. And the things I care about, the relationships I care about, the work I care about, yeah, that's good point. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the fact that there are things out there that are that zap you of energy means that you choose to give that energy to it to some level. You know there's another road. I can go down with that, but all that to say is to affirm what you're saying about passion is, I think the things that we deeply care about will suck us dry if we're not careful. And it's the importance of what you do with your fatigue. But we'll probably get to that in a minute. Sure, what about? You know I want you to share what you get fatigued about.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 1:Employees At our practice Not, but, ken, it's very. It's as a humorist segue into this. I was driving around with one of our co-workers the other day and our podcast was queued up. I think it was our episode on the On like nuclear family. It's all he listens to. It's our voice. I get over it. I get, for the sake of keeping this podcast PG. I won't say exactly what I said when my voice started coming through the speakers, but I said some version of I don't want to. Who's this bozo? I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen and yeah, yeah Colleague found that funny it so I play in.
Speaker 1:I don't have children, so I don't have that bit of fatigue, but I do have meaningful close relationships that I care deeply about and they can be so so both life-giving in their turn but also exhausting. It's family relationships and friendships. I've gone through a very interesting year where my wife went through a very major medical procedure and recovery and that has had and I've only realized in the past few weeks like how much of effect that's had on me emotionally and there was. It's been very good in a lot of ways. Like it. What she went through and what we're on the other side of is provided her a lot of relief for many chronic things that she was feeling for a long time. That's good, but it was a. It was a very scary thing to go through. It was very. The recovery process was really in depth. And then right after that I ended up injuring myself and I had to have surgery far less significant surgery, but and so I'm just kind of on the and so we had that backed about For me.
Speaker 1:I take on a lot of things, and I don't mean that to sound kind of margarish, I just take on so much. I do it out of my own ADHD and desire for stimulation just as much as anything else. There's what we, matt and I, both work as counselors. I have a managerial role within our counseling practice as well. I also have a professional teaching group that I provide approved continuing education for therapists in kind of a secular space. There's also the work we do on this podcast and the connection with that, with our group that Matt and I work with in the Negev Institute providing mental health services and resources for churches.
Speaker 1:There's always something I'm trying to manage in that I find that I'll say yes to things out of eagerness and excitement, but then, as Matt and I, before we hit record, I've got something I'm supposed to be teaching tomorrow. It's a new thing and I'm still getting it written. I feel like in some ways I'm back in college trying to get some papers done that are due tomorrow. That was how I did school and that's how I do a lot of things in life, anyway. So I find for me it's never a singular thing. It's oftentimes the accumulation of lots of things over time.
Speaker 2:Isn't that true though I think there's a lot of truth to true or maybe has people listening that the most fatigued, or even to use some of the language of like, most overwhelmed, we feel I think there's things coming at us from multiple directions. If it was just one singular, linear issue like so and so is sick, I have to take care of them, that's all that was broken, I could then probably feel less fatigue because I have all these other things kind of secure and everything's fine. There's some of those people out there that love the chaos. They just love all the chaos and they just want to. Those people are crazy.
Speaker 2:But those that are like, if you could focus on it linear, then great, less fatigue. But usually what happens is the. It's kind of like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I have five fires that I'm trying to put out and then this big one comes up. What am I supposed to do? So I think sometimes for me and I wonder for other people listening if fatigue is kind of sets in most when it's like that overwhelming sense of something.
Speaker 1:We also live in a place where there's so much stimulation and here's in feeling very fatigued in this moment there's certain things I've realized I've had to respond to in certain ways, and one of it is is I've had to like turn off my social media and, matt, you just live off of it period, which I think there's a lot of benefit to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that was a hard choice last year, but yes, but for me, I take breaks occasionally, and this was one that just there were things that were just keeping me in distraction and in anxiety, that were happening in my kind of personal social media space Stuff. I was seeing that just I found really difficult to compartmentalize and it just kept on pulling me away from what I was trying to be in, from rest even. Yeah, for a few episodes ago, matt and I did an unpacking of anxiety, and the Greek word for it being this idea of distraction, and I find that part of what leads me to fatigue is I'm living in so many distracting things, things that aren't really the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you mentioned social media and we always kind of attack that as the distracting thing. But there are a lot of things, since I've been off of social media, that still distract me. You know, I love to research random stuff, not even like helpful things, like sports related things or like sometimes I find myself, even though it's so, pseudo social media but like on YouTube and just through that space or in which is fine at times. But you know, emily and I will like settle in and we'll watch a show together and these aren't all inherently bad things.
Speaker 2:But I think, at the tail of a very difficult situation whether it was a tough day with the kids or a tough counseling session or whatever happened I use those to kind of numb out, to medicate, to get, you know, just to quote, unquote, rest, and I'm excited about whenever we do that rest one because I've had to redefine rest for myself and what that really is. Because for a long time, like I would back in the day, I would take mental health days you know like, and I would find myself just like vegging out on the couch with like Netflix or movies or something. I would come at the other end of that day feeling worse than I did before and this is my story. Maybe other people have different ones. But I feel it like distractions and kind of just checking out don't really help the fatigue. We have to learn what is really rest for us, or even processing of the problem to then find, I think, rest on the other side of that. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to think on that kind of something because I'm reflecting myself of what does distraction mean for me? And I absolutely agree with you in that I've experienced that. I've experienced where I'm thinking I'm engaging in rest, but because of what I'm engaging in, kind of the distractions, it keeps me from truly resting. I don't want to pathologize it completely, because I do think there's a place where vegging, as we kind of say, to a certain bit can be good, and I think for a lot of things it's the proportion of it. So here's some of beyond just Matt and I doing a mini therapy session with each other in this. Here's a thought I have for those who may be tuning in Gosh the radio station, for those who are listening to reference another episode we've done this season on spiritual bypass, and I feel for a lot of people in this and this is specifically to you pastors out there, as you may be recognizing or feeling or just some of what.
Speaker 1:Maybe what Matt and I are talking about resonates how easy it is to slide into some of that spiritual bypass of I'm too blessed to be stressed which is because we'll look at our lives and we'll look at you know, here are all these good things in my life, I don't have the right to complain either. Well, you know, because you know we have, whether that's related to our physical health or what feels like our financial security or the relationships we have. Or take your pick, as Matt and I beat on certain themes pretty constantly. I think this idea of life exists in tension and how to recognize a multiplicity of things without shutting certain truth, true truth, out, because blessing, in whatever way that that means, you know, emotional, physical, material, whatever Patience is not an exclusive process to trial. We can have both.
Speaker 1:And where I see a lot of people shut down their positive processing of their own fatigue, being able to truly work through their fatigue, is even having a hard time admitting it without shame or without the sense of kind of failure, or that they're not showing a lot of grit.
Speaker 1:And I think and I want to speak to pastors in this, because I've had a lot of close friends that have served as vocational ministers and one of the things I've noticed, from not having ever been a professional pastor myself, but being around them a lot from the outside, looking in, is that work and the stress of work can look very asymmetrical, that there are times that you know, or, depending on your role being what it is, it can be a lot of flexibility, a lot of freedom, but other times it can be a lot of work. A lot of work emotionally, a lot of work even in the traditional sense of whether it's writing or having to attend to certain responsibilities, and I find pastors more so than so many other groups of people have a hard time being real with their fatigue.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and I think that trickles down into their congregation than being real with their fatigue, at least in the context of the church conversations. One of the critiques of the Southern cultural Christianity is kind of the we're referencing all the podcasts now but the niceties of their language with each other, and we did a podcast about kind versus nice. But one thing that I think about is if you set the tone of the culture at the church as a lead pastor or kind of the leadership of the church, as only being able to explore and talk about your strengths or the things that God has blessed you with, then naturally the rest of the church is going to follow suit, Like we're not going to be able to talk about the things that are hard. But I'm struggling with and I recently had a conversation with a pastor about this and just that you know he grew up with mentors that would only give him the goods of things and never really show their own weaknesses to him and it's become a problem because he feels like he can't to other people.
Speaker 2:And I think we need that, we need we need the both and like we need your strengths and your gifts that God has given you to lead us, but we also need and it normalizes it for me when someone that's over top of me or leading me says I'm worn out, I am weak at times and I am in need of Christ more than ever before. You know, those, those things actually comfort me rather than scare me. But you know that's me, so I think that I would. I would echo what you're saying, but I would just encourage pastors to consider sharing the fatigue, or like talking about it at least, so that it echoes into your congregation.
Speaker 1:Yes, I concur with all of that. And for those who aren't in the vocational ministry space, whether your role is more in the informal volunteer sort of thing in your church community, whether you're just thinking about yourself and your own work and family, who you are possibly as a parent or as a spouse or it is. I mean, I was on the phone with my wife yesterday. My wife is therapist in the practice too. We worked in the same office, but she'll have certain days where she'll work from home. She was working from home yesterday. I was at the office trying to make some headway on getting course material written while also having my counseling sessions in between, and I called her at one point and I just said I'm just exhausted, I'm like I'm just I'm not making headway, I'm disappointed in myself and I don't particularly like saying those things and admitting those things to my wife. But I also recognize that what I'm called to be in the relationship involves that and I certainly want her to be able to say those things to me if that's what she's feeling.
Speaker 1:And I realized that if I don't show up, I can't expect the other person to show up in those sorts of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's so important is that you again, you set the tone and it kind of shows what you want from the relationship. But also I'm curious, when you don't have to talk about what she said, necessarily, but what did it do for you to open it up?
Speaker 1:I felt more relieved and I felt you know, and this is what usually happens to me in this there's a lot of de-shaming. That happens to me because part of my own makeup is there's a little bit of a performative type in me. I'm not for those who are into Enneagram and we're going to do a whole episode on the Enneagram and the spirituality on that, because I have some interesting thoughts.
Speaker 2:I think Are we going to get an expert on that I'm a little bit.
Speaker 1:I know a little bit about the Enneagram, but for those who are familiar with that language. I'm not a three. The three is the performer, but I am, that is, I'm adjacent to it, it's a wing of mine, and so I have some of those tendencies where I feel I have to. If I'm not producing in certain ways, then my value is diminished, and when I feel I'm in a place where I'm not producing, in the ways that I think I should be, then I'm not quote worth it.
Speaker 1:That's not my core, but it certainly is in the building, it's around. But I feel when she and my wife has learned to speak into that, and she was praying for me while we were talking on the phone and one of the things she prayed was that I would not see my value in what I do, and that's often something I need to hear.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's so good. I mean, it's just it. You know, one of the questions I had in my mind and we can keep talking about this for a minute but is what do people need to do with their fatigue, or what would we encourage them to do? And I think that's it.
Speaker 1:It could be real. Well, that's it. But.
Speaker 2:I think that, like your example is a, at least one, if not one of the more important steps is to communicate your fatigue to somebody else that you can trust. It's not necessarily to anybody. Well, now I'm communicating to the universe in the podcast.
Speaker 1:But like yeah, but it, but I'm also not looking for the podcast to like assure me.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. But I'm saying the sense of like you want to find the person that you have intimacy with, that you can bring that trust to the table or know that they have that and they have your best interest at heart and it can speak into it. But when you share it with that person, you're known, you're seen. There's the concept of the secure attachment, attachment theories, a kind of newer but very common thing within the psychotherapy world. But I don't know how new it is, it's just more talked about lately. But to have secure attachment, I think well, at least through Kurt Thompson, who's a great writer and psychologist. But he talks about being seen safe, secure and sued, I think, and so kind of to be known to be sued to be safe. It brings that weight of wrestling and anxiety and stuff down. I mean you're still tired, but I think it energizes you when someone sees you and can speak lifewards into you, maybe pray for you, and you're not wrestling with it alone. That's the biggest thing, I think.
Speaker 2:For me is that when I communicate it to somebody and I talk to them about it, I feel like I'm now not the only one carrying the burden. It reminds me of the Galatians 6 passage I think it's Galatians 6, 2, where it says bear one another's burdens and so forth and fulfill the law of Christ, which previously in the book is talking about the law of Christ, of loving Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. And so it's interesting too, because later it says like but each person has to carry their own load. So it's like, well, which one is it? But it's like kind of the responsibility to carry your burdens, but that people can carry with you. You don't give them all to the other person.
Speaker 1:To talk about that. I think that's the second point that feels valuable, which is this idea of recognizing the tension. So, going back to the first thing been this idea of like, how do you show up in referencing another podcast episode in an authentic way in a way that moves into that deeper vulnerability and exposure.
Speaker 2:For those watching on YouTube. We have a counter now of how many references we have.
Speaker 1:I'm just kidding. But so the first is be real, be honest in relationships. That feels appropriate and safe. It's not everybody in your life, not everybody is going to be that person, not everybody should be that person, but to have somebody like that or people like that, I think the other is to recognize that this is not an all or nothing thing and that goes. I think the segue I wanted to make in the context of what you were talking about in the sense of Galatians, of it, is both to bear with one another but then also realize that there's a certain amount of caring that we do in in our own capacity, and To recognize Grief, to recognize fatigue, to recognize these things it. It does not mean that we are ignoring the positives in our life, and so you know referencing YouTube for those who are watching this on YouTube, and if not, you may want to check out YouTube at some point you get a great view of Matt's office and it's a really pretty day, sons kind of come through and, like Matt, has hearing through.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, yeah, and it's, it's about 90% because of your wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is her style but like you look at, like Matt and I both have the sort of offices that therapists dream about having, and you know, and we get to do in vs, in vs. Well, we get to do really cool work Like.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I take it as a true privilege to be able to like sit with people and kind of, and the fact that, like we can make livelihoods off that and like all those things are true and all those things are, I think, good to be reminded of those things. The good things in your life, yeah, the relationships you have, the people you love, the people you feel loved by the way that you feel provided for All those things could be absolutely true and you can still be exhausted.
Speaker 2:Yes and yes or in that yeah you know I love that tension because it's like you mentioned, my office and the, the decor, the way it feels outside, all that stuff is true, but that session earlier was still really really tough. Like there was, there was hardship in the room and so Both are equally true. Yeah, and I feel tired from that session. I'll be it feel better because it's sunny out right now and I can walk outside in a minute and I can take a Breath of fresh air and it feels great and and so it helps my fatigue.
Speaker 2:But this all or nothing thinking that you're kind of bringing up David, I think is something that Sends us to further fatigue at times, because there's a level to which we believe that I I Will never feel at rest if I can't be fully at rest, if, unless all the fires are out, mm-hmm, and I don't think that's true, that's just not the life that we've been promised. So some of that's perspective shifting to that's kind of a little bit deeper than what do you do in the moment. But mm-hmm, it's, how do we hold the tension of the both?
Speaker 1:and yeah, as we're getting to wrapping up point, I want to give an anecdote of just kind of something I live personally in. This of what you're describing, matt, is a temptation I often feel, where I will acknowledge the difficulty of the moment, but then I will immediately shift into the mindset of like okay, now step out of it, like, get over it. Basically like okay, yeah, yeah, that was hard, but now we can move on. And I had a lot of years in life that felt not perfect, but like, yeah, life's going pretty well and every year feels a bit of an improvement. And I closed out 2015 is really, you know, 2015 was a good year for me and then 2016 was a really hard year. 2016 I had a lot going on in my life and just it felt there was a heaviness that I just felt in the world and and I Remember closing out 2016 and be like, okay, this is a hard year, but 2017 even it's gonna be better. That's gonna be a turnaround year. 2017 was harder. 2017 was I had more things kind of good. I went through a season of life particularly where I had a lot of deaths. A lot of people that were close to me died, yeah, lost some friends, grandparents in the season. When to that, 2016 was hard, 2017 was personally hard and then going to 2000, you know, did the same thing.
Speaker 1:2018, like okay, now that we're gonna make it, we're gonna turn this year around. And 18 was the worst. 18 was, you know. I capped it off with even more loss. I went to like huge, unexpected, undesired transition in business and I reached the midpoint of the year just feeling completely spent and it was just a failure. It just sucked. And I went into 2019 not saying and like. And I thought a lot about the scripture verse where it says you know, do not say tomorrow I will go here and do this, but this idea to say, if Lord wills, it Right. And I went into that year and it was a better year. It was a lot of restart. But here's kind of reached the end of that year In 2019 is when Matt and I started working together. That may have been one of the many positive things in that year. We reached the end and we were at our Christmas party.
Speaker 2:Yeah, remind me to say something.
Speaker 1:We reached the end and we're at our Christmas party in 2019 and it was. You know, I got to do some travel with my family that year and you know there was a lot of in my professional life. There was a lot of kind of recovery and it was good and we were having this big blowout Christmas party and one of our therapist I was working with at the time you know he was new with the practice and felt really he had had a good year and felt really positive. And he said to me you know, david, 2019 was a great year. And I said, yeah, it was a pretty good year. He goes in, 2020 is going to be even better. And I said, no, it not necessarily.
Speaker 1:And he kind of got a little bristly with me in that like, are you being so negative about it? And I go, I'm not, I'm not being negative, I'm just I'm realizing that I do not own every moment. I've got to accept that. You know, things will happen in certain ways.
Speaker 1:Now I always say I did not have any prophetic inkling about 2020 being what it became. Yeah, yeah, right. There was no sense of that. I just had the sense of having gone through what, personally, for me was several difficult years that I could not predict 2020. And I will say, like it was for a lot of us, 2020 was super hard, but I felt, because I learned a bit more acceptance, 2020 was not as hard as I think it could have been for me. Yeah, because I wasn't trying to fake it, like I acknowledge part of the things I said a lot, particularly in workspaces, in that is like, look, this is hard, we don't like this, like so much of what we're trying to navigate in just what so much of that year felt was difficult, and I just try to be really real with myself and other people like, yeah, we're just kind of trying to figure this out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Anyway, yeah, no, that's good. You mentioned 2019. As you were telling your story, I was trying to think I've had a similar reaction to this and I think in 2019, I felt like life was really tough, like, and I had a similar thought of you know. Well, part of it was I love my daughter, she was born and her. We had a lot of stuff with her, with her eating. That was really tough Months before we found out that she had a milk allergy, and so there was just this chaos. You know, starting here. But I was jokingly in my head. I was like, of course, it was 2019 when it all, like, became really tough. That's when I started working here.
Speaker 2:I started working with David of course that's when it became hard and then 2020 happened.
Speaker 2:But I think I've had similar things where I was like next year's got to be better, next year's got to be better and it doesn't have to be Nope. And I think that just life in general is just adulting for me has sometimes been an acceptance I've had to have Like, no, this is. This is what adult life is like, is dealing with the responsibilities of hardship, and I've learned a lot about concept of joy and grief coexisting. So that's you know again, living in the tension.
Speaker 1:We certainly hope that whoever's catching this, for whatever reason that you are, that some of Matt and I's musing on this is encouraging, because that's what we desire in this, like if, as we can give kind of words and form whether it's out of, you know, the research that we bring in from psychology to just who we are trying to show up as people, and if there's ways that we can help put words to, maybe, things that you are also experiencing if you're listening to this, and that's an encouragement. No, that's really something we want.
Speaker 1:And we hope that is the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really good. Well, David, thank you for this conversation. It has been helpful for me even to have it. Well, thank you for the conversation, Matt. Yeah, and I hope that it's helpful for you and that you listen to it on a sunny fall afternoon, you listen to it whenever you want.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's raining and cold, but, yeah, feel the feel, the warmth. Okay, well, until next time, everybody, thank you and we look forward to talking to you again then. Yeah, thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of Church Psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.