Church Psychology

Exploring the Intersection of Victimhood, Agency, and Control

• The Negev Institute • Season 1 • Episode 3

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How does the tension between victimization and agency play out in our churches and faith communities? Join us, Matt Scheuneman and Dr David Hall, as we unravel this timely and relevant discussion. We dig into the prevalent narratives of trauma, abuse, and bullying, and challenge the mindset of victimization, offering instead a fresh perspective on the concept of agency and its impact on our mental health and faith.

Venturing further, we probe the implications of control and how it can seed feelings of depression, anxiety, and fear. Let's journey together through scriptural teachings to understand how God interacts with our choices and their consequences. We'll explore how our agency can be a force for positive change and discuss the transformative power of abiding in Christ amidst circumstantial pain. This is more than just a conversation about victimhood and agency, it's about finding hope and navigating life’s challenges through faith. So, are you ready to see your faith in a new light?

Show Notes:

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you are finding us, and also leave us a review As we start. If we are to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. So let's get to work.

Speaker 1:

Well, welcome everybody to the Church Psychology podcast. My name is Matt Schoonerman. I'm here with Dr David Hall. Hey David, hey Matt, it's good to see you. We're coming back to you and bringing another episode, and today we're going to be talking about the differences between victimization, or victimhood, and agency, and so I'm excited to talk about this. And, just as a reminder for those that are new to our podcast or seeing us on a YouTube channel, we've just recently started this podcast, and so go back and listen to the others as we talk about things. As it relates to tension between two things, and I wouldn't necessarily call this a series that we're doing, but in a sense it's a series of tension points, and so this is another example of that of in our culture, in the church and just our everyday lives. We sometimes hold this tension between am I a victim or do I have agency? Do I have control over blank? So that's what we get to talk about today, so I'm looking forward to doing that with you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, It feels really relevant And I think there's so much conversation happening in a lot of public spaces, whether that's public in the large big media sorts of things, or in social media spaces or in conversations that are happening in churches about victimization.

Speaker 2:

What does that look like? And some of what the church is reckoning with right now is this in recent times there's been things specifically out of a really big story last year out of the Southern Baptist Convention, about abuse and things and how it was not handled correctly, And but it's not just there in any number of church denominations or groupings. This has been so prevalent in so many conversations and it goes to the extreme of actual physical abuse and sexual abuse to you know, oftentimes what's called emotional abuse or bullying and in certain stuff that's highlighted in things like the podcast series, The Rise and Fall of Morris Hill. That's right. So here's. But, as Matt was leading and we talked about this intention, because as mental health professionals, you know, we hear about these stories, we hear these things and, to clarify if there's any doubt about this, we think these things are bad.

Speaker 2:

They are not good, and we want the church. Part of what drives what we do in this podcast and by the other work Matt and I do with the Nagev Institute is to really help equip the church to be a healthy, fruitful place regarding mental health, and so we desire that. On the other side, though and this is the point of tension on the other side, and this has been where I've seen a lot of people resistant to these conversations is terminology and concepts of victimization. Either. Is it being too broadly applied, because there's some people I had a conversation earlier this week where someone was asking me how I defined trauma, and this is a clergy person And his or his because his follow up question was is like, i have a lot of people talking to me using the word trauma, but it just becomes trauma, becomes this catchall phrase for things that were painful or uncomfortable or even just something they disagreed with, yeah, and then it leads to wider thoughts about how do we see victims, and this has been not just in church spaces but in the mental health field. There's been a pendulum swing at different seasons, at different times of language of no, i'm not a victim, i'm a survivor. Yeah, they're challenging to the language or challenging to the mindset of how trauma kind of comes in.

Speaker 2:

So, as Matt said, this is a point of tension. If you are tuning into this podcast because you want a really clean answer to a lot of things, we want to be clear. We don't know if we can give you like hard on one side, because there are relevant points on both sides. So that's how my mind has been spinning on this, matt. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Hearing up the conversation Well and you bring up some relevant topics. You know, even within the church, over the past I don't know five years or so that those have been important dialogue within the church. Yeah, i think it's really important that we talk about them because we want to shine light to those places that are dark and broken. I think the tension between what I've seen, even the tension between the church and culture, has been more so in the sense of what we have identified ourselves to be as humans. And so part of the concern that I think the church has been saying as it relates to the culture, is there's been too much of a victimhood mentality coming from everybody, i think your clergy friend speaking to this.

Speaker 1:

You know, even in the psychological world we talk about big T versus little T traumas.

Speaker 1:

You know and I don't want to diminish little T, quote unquote traumas in regards of the impact of someone's life, because I like this imagery that someone gave me once people are different shapes of rain barrels, and so when a rain barrel is full and it's spilling over, that's a painful experience for that person, but it may not be the same for the person next to you, and what level you can contain, and so we want to have compassion and empathy for those that are hurting.

Speaker 1:

But I think the point of contention for the church has been more so in the sense of no people are now using that as their identity. I am a victim, and so there's some pushback now from one side, saying I don't know if we should be totally victims in this. I think there should be some agency, and so, even before we kind of dive deeper into that, how would you, david, define agency? I think that's a kind of higher level term that we kind of throw around but maybe don't really take full control of, and so define that one for it. We know what victims are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or, as a therapist, it's one of my favorite terms And I will unpack this in a larger psychological concept and then we'll move down. So the larger psychological concept is something that's talked about as an internal versus external locus of control. I believe it's spelled L-O-C-U-S.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, not with a T.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, with a T Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Not the flying insects, right, yes, But a locus of control.

Speaker 2:

And those who operate from a strong external locus of control Oftentimes we'll be in this victim seat where they oftentimes see things as happening to them, the world happens to them and they do not feel a lot of power in their decisions to do anything different.

Speaker 2:

And there was behavioral psychological experiments done to kind of show in the sixties that people can be taught this. People can be put in situations where, no matter what they do, it doesn't change the circumstances. So pretty quickly they begin to quit trying to affect their circumstances because that hopelessness permeates And I think from as mental health professionals we can see this permeate different places in cultures and subcultures of why? because oftentimes there's a strong cry out against people taking on a victim mentality. And though I do find issue with victim mentality, i do think there's also importance to have grace for that, because everybody has learned that from different contexts And depending on who you are and where you come from and what external life looked like for you, oftentimes you were given the lesson a lot It doesn't matter what I do, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1:

There was a hopeless yeah, in a sense, the systems that you grew up in you were taught that in a sense, they were hopeless to try to change, and that is a very real reality towards those specific situations or people groups. And so I want to also be very careful that again we said this in a previous podcast we're two white guys trying to talk about this concept of victimization And we know that, i know that I have not been in certain situations that the others have, and so I'd be really careful on how I tread on this, because Sure And we want to be kind in that and be open in what our personal experiences are, and part of what we want to bring is, of course, matt and I speak out of personal knowledge, but we're also clinicians, professionals, and we also want to speak from this of kind of what the science of this, of social behavioral science, shows.

Speaker 2:

But going back to those who operate with the more external locus control, it's hard for them to take action in ways that they expect to be fruitful And so because of that, they don't take a lot of action And that's kind of in the deep victim mentality side. Now there's the other side that's passed agency We've talked about today. This is victim versus agency. But I'll go, i'll overshoot and I'll talk about the expectation of control. Yeah, and the opposite of someone who operates from an external locus of control, someone who operates from an internal locus of control And that is of the mindset that my actions really do have impact and effect or even management over the world around me.

Speaker 2:

Now, oftentimes a person like this. They do not fall in the victim mentality necessarily, but they can fall into what I would say is a heresy of vending machine God as how it plays out in their faith. For those who are Christians, it becomes very. I can manifest anything, material or otherwise, in my life And my success or failure is up to me to create. And it doesn't take into account just so many variables that happen in life And it's inaccurate and often can lead people to a place of despondency, because if you have a belief of the world that the world is as good or as bad as you personally make it and it's not going so great in this moment, it will feel like a personal failure. Agency is something that exists in between, as I describe it when I'm doing my work as clients, with clients I would describe agency And for those checking in this podcast, i realize Matt asked me a simple question and I am like going on quite a bit about it. Be prepared for a lot of this.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to how my conversations with David normally go.

Speaker 2:

But who's to say it's bad? You know it's good. Agency is this middle place where I believe my actions. Agency is not control. Agency is this belief that my actions or inactions have effect on the world. Effect is not control.

Speaker 2:

The metaphor I use for this when I'm sitting with clients and other people is gardening. I don't have the ability to make tomatoes appear Not really. I can do things that make the likelihood of tomatoes showing up more likely. Part of it is I live in a temperature zone that I can grow tomatoes in within certain seasons. I can see that they are planted, watered, fertilized, have good sunlight, keep the bugs off them all those sorts of things And if I do those things, if I take those actions, the likelihood of tomatoes appearing I've increased.

Speaker 2:

Now there are any number of things that can happen that are outside of my control. I've never given control of that. My actions do have effect And for our work as mental health professionals, i think oftentimes when we're dealing with people that are too stuck in the victim mindset, we want them to have a vision or a hope that they can have positive effect on their life. It's not the same as control That we can't offer them that from a practical psychotherapy perspective, we can't offer them complete control. And from a spiritual truth perspective, we would say we can't offer them complete control.

Speaker 1:

And if you have a pastor or counselor expressing to you that you can have complete control, probably leave that pastor. They're mistaken, yes, they're mistaken, yes.

Speaker 2:

There may be other things that are beneficial about what they have to do, but that's just not true, right? No, that's not Part of the. We are finite beings and that we have limits in the space and time and capacity that we inhabit. It doesn't matter how wise you are, how strong you are, how wealthy you are. We all have limits And we live in a universe that is managed by what we believe to be an infinite God And as soon as. This is a concept I gleaned from a Francis Schaefer book when I was young. But we are constantly dealing with a struggle, as we are finite beings approaching the infinite, and so there's always going to be that dissonance and difficulty in that.

Speaker 2:

St Stephen along M От tau of электrophobic energy ess接待物 com是民存 van. What I believe is that God has put us in this world to be co-creators with him of it. That's part of how I understand the narrative of the Garden of Eden. God formed the animals, but had Adam name them. That Adam was participating in a way, and there's a whole fascinating thing of unpacking, like the Hebrew word used in that instance, of what that means, because it wasn't just saying like I'm going to call you a zebra, it was this idea. By speaking over them, in a way, adam was ascribing their identity to them, and so it's a fascinating thing.

Speaker 1:

The same way God did for man and woman. There's a real fascinating book. This is a little tangential, but maybe for the listeners just to know. I believe it's called Fully Alive by Larry Crabb.

Speaker 2:

We'll have it in the show notes, regardless of what it's called, we'll do our best to find it.

Speaker 1:

He breaks down the Hebrew word for male and female that he ascribes in that. I can't directly remember the female version, other than it being like invitational, open This kind of like nurture space. And then for the male it was Zakar, z-a-k-a-r is the English spelling, so to speak, but that is to make impact, and so it's like God formed man and woman with identity and function. Then I think Adam took from that and he also had agency influence of like naming these things as directed by God's power within him.

Speaker 2:

And there's some people checking this out that if you go on the very like, if you fall very deep on concepts of the sovereignty of God, some of this can be hard, because there's this, you know, there's strands of people that may feel like, well, what is our agency? What's our free will? Yeah, i very much embrace that. There's that a certain amount of mystery in it. I believe we have agency. I believe that's the narrative arc of scripture, of that people are constantly making choices And God acknowledges that their choices have impact.

Speaker 2:

When the people of Israel call out for a king, that was not. It's clear, you know, of how God's interacting with Samuel in that, in the book of 1 Samuel, that that's not what he wants, but he engages with their agency. In that It's clear that any number of things that kind of happen in different moments, that, particularly in acts of rebellion by the people of God and the individuals in that, that that does not represent. So even you can even argue from the most like sovereign, focused perspective on things, the aspect of sin shows that there is agency. But if we acknowledge that and I think we also have to look at our agency also exists to create an impact, positive change, yeah, so that in a very large nut, not even a shell, is how I would define victim versus agency versus control, kind of all those Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, i appreciate you going even beyond agency to recognize that control is not a good thing to grasp for, and as I've worked with people, i've noticed that control, or the illusion of control, has been that which has produced a lot of symptoms of whether that be depression, anxiety, fear, and, and so this concept of I can control something or the fear I cannot produces a lot of issues within people that come through our doors, and so when there is the tension, so to speak, between I don't want to be a victim anymore I swing the pendulum too far to attempts of control. That's where I think we have a lot of breakdown of this whole thing, where the tension is not held. Well, i see that you're looking something up Well what do you bring into the table?

Speaker 2:

But this is this idea of if. To bring it back to how we're supposed to model, yes, this is Philippians To 5. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Jesus Christ who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man and being found in human form. He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. So that's what because as you were talking about that kind of came to mind of this idea of why is it important for us to give up control? Christ gave up control, and so if we're called, if you look at this idea, if we're called to Christ's likeness, then Christ being fully God which is what's highlighting Philippians there, what's being fully God does not take on the control himself.

Speaker 2:

Church Psychology is a production of the Nagev Institute, a research resource and teaching initiative that aims to provide Christian communities with practical education and consulting to faithfully speak to our needs in mental health, relational science and human habit and behavior. A great way to support Nagev is to start a free membership in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg and then stay connected with our email newsletter to hear about new classes, publications, live forums and in-person events Again. You can find all that at churchpsychologyorg.

Speaker 1:

You know, as we talk about this, i've been thinking about how do we encourage others, those listening, to hold the tension. Well, and I've been. We've been talking about it from the dichotomy of victimhood versus agency. But I wonder if the dichotomy is really victimhood versus control And agency.

Speaker 2:

Maybe is that central piece of tension of holding the line between the two Agents is where we exist, where we're called to participate.

Speaker 2:

That's another way I think about agency is we're called to participate but the limits of our participation are constantly being set outside of us.

Speaker 2:

We're not called to predict the income, we're called to show up And my challenge for those who are in pastoral positions, whether it's vocationally or in volunteer situations, and for those in mental health as providers in that, is that sitting, that tension I would say this to pastoral staff, to therapists being able to sit in that tension and to hear and to engage.

Speaker 2:

And not because oftentimes if we move too much on the control side, we don't sit and grief very well with people And oftentimes, if they've experienced being a victim in some way, that is a cause of pain and grief, that needs to be acknowledged and responded to in ways that kind of call for righteous action, at the same time not wanting that to become their new identity. And I think that's one of the things we see kind of culturally that victimhood becomes an identity, even a chosen identity, because there's a social currency in being a victim. But if I can claim victimhood, then that allows me to speak in a certain way or speak to others in a certain way or hold authority over people in a different way.

Speaker 1:

I mean, let's talk about it in this way, if it is a social currency, because I don't want to come across. Even if you're stumbling upon this and you don't hold the same beliefs as us, we say welcome and we don't expect you to. But I want to also come across this way of like. Sometimes that social currency is freedom, to where the experience that was done to you feels enslaving. And so when I have social currency and the microphone, so to speak, to speak, my pain and what I want to see is change, it does feel like freedom. So that's very attractive for people, especially those that have been hurt in significant ways. So I don't want to downplay the fact that freedom feels very good, but it is also, in a sense, intoxicating, like it can take you into a problematic space to where then it becomes your identity. You can't see anything beyond the blinders of the pain. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and so part of the victimhood sort of aspect of things is so many conversations want to get reduced to either or, and it's not, we would argue. In most situations there's so much both and You being wronged in whatever it looked like. Whether it's you were wronged in a social sense that widely affected you and your culture or your family, you were wronged individually, has impact and has reverberation. It's not that this is and I think this is where the other side of anti-victimization kind of comes is there's an unwillingness to engage in the ramifications of that. There's this idea of well, that was yesterday that happened. What does that have bearing on today? Well, the truth is, what I eat yesterday affects how I feel today And everything in life kind of shows us the, the, the effect of things and who we are and where we come from. What like has effect, but I where. But even in that to acknowledge that has affected it's not necessarily overall binding And from a secular voice in this.

Speaker 2:

One of my friends and mentors is a psychotherapist named Bill O'Hanlon who's written and taught on trauma, has a course called Resolving Trauma Without the Drama And it's specifically about brief psychotherapy interventions to addressing and overcoming traumatic experiences, and we'll have a link in the show notes to that, to some of the materials, because it's great material. But and Bill's not coming from a spiritual integrated approach He's talking as a, as a secular based psychotherapist. But he took his experience as somebody who went through a lot of trauma as a, as a young person And it affected him in. He was very isolated and depressed in his young adult years But he experienced changes through different relationships And then on his journey of becoming a therapist that saw people be able to move past trauma. There's a concept in positive psychology called post-traumatic success versus post-traumatic stress And that there are things that happen that are distressing, that do not lead necessarily to continual, continual trauma response And there are even people that have a trauma response that that trauma response can be transformed into something different.

Speaker 2:

And our call for people is, if there's the two things within the victimhood versus control of what needs to be acknowledged in the victimhood, i think is that this represents oftentimes real, or at least perceived, and in that sense it has a certain reality to it. This has been wronged and pain and that should be attended to in, you know, in an emotional sense, in a sense of our responses to it for corrective action? I'd say absolutely. Then we hold that on that side of the tension. The other bit is that should not rob you of your ability to engage in agency that is given to all of us And how that agency can be used for your own growth and the growth of those around you and, as Christians, as a witness to the kingdom that's coming, to the transformation of the world. Because, ultimately, i believe that we live. This is a certain eschatology sort of thing, which is this idea, concept of end times, but I believe we live in the here and not yet We are post incarnation and resurrection and pre second coming, and this is this scripture kind of talks about. This is this phase of the world where and we are called, i believe, as Christians.

Speaker 2:

It's one of what's motivated Matt and I in these conversations and put the things out that we're doing is to what are the ways that each of us have agency to affect.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, matt and I, these are conversations that we're recording now that Matt and I have offline all the time, but it comes from this place of we desire to see people thrive better in their mental health, well being, in ways that are congruent and amplifying in their transformational spiritual journey as part of the church, as part of the people of God, And we I have no expectation that might have expectation. I have no expectation A lot of this is going to transform that. These conversations are going to transform the world. Those who know me may think I'm that much of an egotist, but I don't think I am. But I do believe in the importance of us showing up, and this is a lot of what's motivating Matt and I right now is this feeling of we had this sense of need and conversations that weren't happening in public spaces in this way And we felt we were supposed to show up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So here we are, showed up, you know, i think of. I think it's in John, where Jesus says in this world or in this life, you will have trouble. or it says different translations but they say tribulation in one and then, but kind of torn down its trouble, there's a sense to which Christ is saying to us like you're going to feel pain. Now the hope is that that pain is somehow mitigated, but we can't, we can't promise that. You know, the second half of that verse is but take hard, i've overcome the world. Later in John, or might be, before I get it mixed up, but there's a point to which, in John also, he talks about the, the vine in the branches. We may take about this a little bit more in our next episode that's coming up, so stay tuned for that.

Speaker 1:

But, in a sense a teaser would be that in John 15 he talks about I am the vine, you're the branches, and he uses the word abided me. And there's a sense to which our agency is no-transcript, a response to the abiding that we have within Christ. Then, no matter the circumstantial pain that we have, we have the chance to hold some kind of I can't control the external circumstance. So back to your locus of control. I can't control the external locus, like our external circumstances, i can't let them control me. But why I can control are my responses, and oftentimes that's my work with people is that I try to bring that focus back to like all right, what is your response gonna be in that circumstance And a lot of times as believers we have to hold into well, what is God leading me into?

Speaker 1:

If I abide in him, what is that response then gonna be? So Christ in a sense brings us to that sense of tension where there is gonna be pain but we have him as our peace And the more we abide in him, i think, the more we can act in our agency. The way that we feel called to, are supposed to whatever that word is is like I feel this kind of tension in my soul. That's like I want to do it in a blank way, just don't know how. I think as believers, we have the power within us. It's just that. Abiding peace.

Speaker 2:

Your resources love to point to. We'll have them in the show notes. Like I said, i love Bill Halen's work about trauma resolution. Are the things that you like, matt, specifically in the sense of books or other resources, as we talked?

Speaker 1:

about, even from an existential standpoint. One of my favorite books is I think it's titled Man's Search for Meaning.

Speaker 2:

Victor Frankel.

Speaker 1:

Victor Frankel. Yeah, he's an existential psychologist in half of his book. The last half of his book is basically his description of his counseling process, but the first half of the book and if you only read that is his story Growing up a Jewish boy in I can't remember He was.

Speaker 2:

Austria.

Speaker 1:

Austria But the Germans take over, he was sent to a concentration camp And basically his understanding of his locus of control versus internal versus external, because the circumstances are very traumatic, but kind of choosing to act in a certain way, And so I've always found inspiration in that. I don't know his necessary like his faith background, but I do feel like that's a good understanding of that internal versus external space.

Speaker 2:

It's a great foundational work on the general field of positive psychology of. He had this vision, as he was basically dying in the concentration camps, of being able to imagine his future in a positive way And that allowed him even though there was so much in his physical circumstances that he could not control it allowed him enough hope to move forward. He would talk about-.

Speaker 1:

So it really kind of processed that concept of hope Which, as believers, we have hope in.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

You will face things that are difficult in this life, and so holding onto hope is crucial. I think into that process.

Speaker 2:

You know to talk about as we're reaching towards the end. There's tensions that, for those listening to kind of come down off the clouds a little bit for this, like what you know how this manifests in the tensions and in the places that we inhabit. The wider culture, and that's a very broad sort of thing, and culture has not said one thing always, but currently there's an aspect of a lot of currency that happens in victimhood as identity and that identity forming a sort of currency. If I can gain a certain social positioning by identifying myself with a label that implies a certain amount of victimhood, and I can use that to speak in a certain way And to and sometimes I feel it has positive attributes to it. Sometimes it's giving voice in places that voice does not exist. Other times it can be a kind of self-focused exercise of amplifying my own importance And it can also be very combative in ways, because then you'll see this in a lot of social spaces of competing victimhood, of who's victimhood is worse. Is it worse, you know, in this situation, based on your race or your gender or sexual orientation or so many different things that become? who's had it worse becomes the source of authority, and I believe who's had it worst is the source of context, is what I would say as a psychologist, has the source of context for how we should translate and understand a lot of different things that are going on. That's a lot of the cultural space.

Speaker 2:

Now the church and I'll speak to this kind of in the more evangelical cultural sort of space has the former voice of the culture, has a very progressive edge to it And for not and this is not the universal experience of the church, not even the United States, but talking about that sort of cultural part of it is much more politically conservative as well as religiously conservative. It's had a hard time embracing the idea of the limits of agency. It becomes like, well, this happened to you and that was horrible, but that person's gone to jail, that your abuser's gone to jail, let's move past it. So some of it is this thought of kind of bootstrapping in the extreme, of like, yeah, but you can pull yourself up, and that's just as much informed by political ideology as it is religious ideology. There's also a desire for protecting institutions, because the idea of the church I mean this in lower cases see the church being this convention or this denomination or this particular congregation.

Speaker 1:

Or this pastor, this pastor Influential man.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it becomes I. So things are dismissed in the order to maintain self-preservation, because it's like if people knew this then it would destroy this ministry and that's worse for everybody. So it justifies this concealing, and Diane Lainberg, who's a Christian psychologist, talks a lot about this. She talks about that. You know, historically we in the church have, you know, use God's word to obstruct, to misdirect, to conceal things that God hates, and there's a reckoning. I think that comes to that Even for people in that.

Speaker 2:

In the same, i have sympathy for them because I can appreciate the emotional and mental impulses that drive people towards that, because of how it's shaped by your worldview, and not that I think it's completely incorrect worldview, i think it's just poorly calibrated in this instance. Yeah, the desire of loyalty there are lots of fruitful things in there, but they're manifest in ways that become problematic. So that's kind of swinging from the culture to the church, lowercase c. And the biblical response is what Matt and I have been kind of hitting on is this idea of like. We believe that the biblical narrative gives us this paradigm of we do not have control, but we are also not passive players in everything that's happening. We are called to be to do to live so many like the. Christian life is supposed to be an active life, right, and that's not to say a workspace life, but it is supposed to be an engaged life. And there's this we've been given this vision that our engagement is and can be fruitful.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, and that engagement, that fruit is born from connection to the vine, and I believe that what Paul writes about in Romans 12 is that sense of our living sacrifice in this way is our spiritual worship. So it ends up being worship being our response in all these things, if attached to Christ in that. Well, david, i think that's a good wrapping point to this. I appreciate always our conversations. We hope that you appreciated them too, as you listen. We're looking forward to continue bringing these podcasts And again we'll have another one based on the sense of tension coming to you shortly, but until then, we hope that you have a good day.

Speaker 2:

So, david, good to see you Good to see you.

Speaker 1:

We'll talk soon. Thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of Church Psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.