Church Psychology

What is Spiritual Bypass?

• Narrative Resources, LLC • Season 1 • Episode 5

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What really happens when we use spirituality to avoid confronting our unresolved emotional issues? Dr. David Hall and I, Matt Scheuneman, bring you an insightful discussion on spiritual bypass, a phenomenon prevalent in church culture, and its implications in our lives and relationships.

John Wellwood's concept of spiritual bypass forms the basis of our conversation as we delve into the complexities of navigating spirituality, mental health, and the delicate balance between spiritual faith and practical action. We're pressing into how scripture can be misused as a spiritual bypass in therapy, the dangers of cherry-picking scripture to fit our narratives, and the potential consequences of avoiding challenges. Join us for a challenging yet enlightening journey into the intersection of black holes, theology and the repercussions of spiritual bypassing.

We challenge the oft-heard statement “if you got Jesus, you don't need therapy” and how it can feed into the phenomenon of spiritual bypass. But don't worry - it's not all doom and gloom! We'll share our insights on navigating tough conversations with grace and humility, the importance of building trust, and how our failures can glorify God. You won't want to miss this thought-provoking exploration of spirituality, mental health, and the balance between faith and action.

Show Notes:

Speaker 1:

Hello my friends, this is Dr David Hall and on this week's episode of Church Psychology, matt and I are going to be discussing the process of spiritual bypass. If you don't know that term, you've probably experienced it if you've been in church culture. Spiritual bypass is this process where we avoid really engaging in an authentic way with what's going on with us, emotionally, relationally, and we kind of give these canned, shallow, spiritual-y answers. If that's starting to ring a bell, you've experienced spiritual bypass, as a lot of us has, either through yourself or through something you've experienced with somebody else, and Matt and I are going to talk about the psychological dynamics of it, how to process that in healthier ways as believers and in community. So that's what we're getting into today. Let's slide into that intro music now.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and also leave us a review as we start. If we were to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work Well. Welcome everybody to the Church Psychology podcast. My name is Matt Schuettman. I'm here with Dr David Hall. Hey David, hey Matt, Great to see you as always Good to see you too.

Speaker 2:

I am always grateful to have these conversations with you, and I hope that you, as listeners, are grateful to listen to our the labored conversations.

Speaker 1:

It is, I think, that they're good, yeah, generally people as mental health counselors, people we're used to the habit of people paying us to listen to us talk and maybe that creates an inflated sense of ego at times. Who knows? But the yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I feel that you know this is our fifth At least our fourth accorded, yeah, so if we're out of order and you're listening to this, you know, don't, don't get on us. You know Taipei people, but I feel like we're getting better at it. It is.

Speaker 1:

It's funny. One of the things that Matt and I've talked about in this is creating this. It feels a mix to me between like what teaching feels like and what a therapy session feels like, and teaching is how I try to do. It is a bit more structured or like there's usually a PowerPoint I'm going through or something like that, and therapy at least a lot of therapy for me is a bit more freeform, and so we're trying to create an amalgamation of the two, and I don't think tension, like we've talked about.

Speaker 2:

It's both there, yeah, and we're not necessarily going down the tension route today. We're exploring new topics, new frontiers, yeah, all those things. But this is one that you brought to the table and intrigued by it because, actually, when you told it about me, told it to me, first I was, I was like what is that? And then, as you told me about it, I was like, oh, I definitely know what that is, and so it's yeah, this came up.

Speaker 1:

So Matt and I we've mentioned this before we work in the same counseling clinic and so it's we'll even have you know side conversations in the hallways and it sometimes I wish I don't really wish that our conversations were reported.

Speaker 2:

It'd be cool If it could like put our phone like, just like in our pocket and was like all.

Speaker 1:

but there's a lot of a lot of times we're replicating conversations we've had in the hallways or things like that. But I was meeting with one of my supervisees which is in the mental health profession. You graduate, you work as a pre-licensed person for a number of years before you become independently licensed and we call that supervision. And I was working with one of my supervisees, we're talking through some cases and he said, in reference to one of his cases, like yeah, a lot of spiritual bypass going on. And that hit a light for me. I'm like, oh, I haven't thought about spiritual bypass as a as a concept in a while.

Speaker 1:

And I thought that would be a good. Matt and I are going to be recording tomorrow. That'll be a good topic, and so I brought it up to Matt and for for introduction. Some of you may know exactly what I'm talking about. But but what is spiritual bypass? So, yeah, so, here's.

Speaker 2:

Here's what. I'm glad we're going into the what, because if I were listening to this and just bystander, so to speak, listening to it, I would pretend like I knew what it was. Or if we were in conversation about it, I'd pretend I know what it is but then really have no idea what you're talking about. So, yeah, what are we?

Speaker 1:

talking. Yeah, so this is from Wikipedia. But a spiritual bypass or spiritual bypassing is a tendency to use spiritual ideas and practices to sidestep or avoid facing unresolved emotional issues, psychological wounds or unfinished developmental tasks. So it's a. It was a concept that was developed by a psychologist, psychotherapist, in the 80s named John Wellwood, who didn't come from a Christian perspective, he was Buddhist or is, I assume, he's still alive, I'm not sure, but the and yeah.

Speaker 1:

I can't remember but the of, and I think he was speaking to it even kind of in his own spiritual tradition, and this is.

Speaker 1:

You know, you said we were going to get into tension and I don't know if we're going to have an episode where there doesn't have a certain tension because here's the tension that comes with this and it is and definitely from our perspectives as mental health therapists who work with a lot of people that are religious and that their spiritual life is important to them, is, as we're trying to talk and unpack with people about something that may be really difficult, they'll kind of give you the Jesus answer in the, in the. It's the Sunday school answer of you know, you're sitting in Sunday school. There's a question, what's the answer? God, jesus, the Bible, and it, it, and it's not even necessarily that it's untrue. Right On a very deep level, the answer could be true. And if someone's in a place of very profound grief, they've experienced loss, whether it's the loss through death of a person in their life, or a loss that's represented by certain transitions there in the middle of loss of a job, or change in the phase of life for their family. Their children have moved out to go to college, whatever it looks like, and there's grief and but they'll, they'll acknowledge it, but then they'll quickly move to. But like Jesus is my, my provision, and this is, and that is true.

Speaker 1:

The issue with spiritual bypass from our perspective is that it will often minimize deeper truths or truths that are part of the whole, it will give an overly simplistic answer in order to avoid sitting in the discomfort and the pain. Right, and that is a hard to, because it's not that we don't believe. The answer is that is what they're saying, but there are a few steps in between. Jesus is my provision and where you are in this moment. That could be. That could be helpful to walk through. That you're just refusing to do so. That's my kind of it in some way. No, I I.

Speaker 2:

I think it's a very valid thing to discuss because, as we've talked about before, there's a growing interest in the church to discuss mental health matters in a good way, at least from what David and I would say are healthy ways to discuss them and work through them and process them in an integrated way, to use biblical truths but not necessarily bypass or minimize the things that you feel. One way that this I think is sometimes used and I want to be careful to not generalize this to everyone who does this type of counseling but in some of the more traditional biblical counseling models, you kind of see this play out, where we use scripture and truths about the Bible to dictate how we counsel, and that is it.

Speaker 2:

There's no room for some of the outside understandings of mental health, biology, that kind of stuff and again I'm over generalizing so I want to be careful not to peg everyone into that hole. But even in that I've seen that be a way of bypassing the core issues that are there, by using spirituality as that crux, so to speak.

Speaker 1:

It is. Yeah, there's a field of counseling within the church that it's most commonly called biblical counseling. Now it used to be known more as a new fetic counseling, but it is very much of just basically just the Bible and any Christians that work in the mental health space, whether it's born formal biblical counseling or I, was specifically trained as a Christian integrationist, which was a field that was pioneered by psychologists in the 80s, probably even before then. Gary Collins, who recently went home just the other year. I had the privilege of knowing him some and having time with him, and it really was this thought of how does the science of mental health fit within a Christian framework, worldview, high regard or scripture, all that. But the tension exists because there is this thought of you just need Jesus if you just have the gospel, if you just have, and I think the tension I feel is on a certain level. That is true, but then what is the gospel? And ultimately, scripture is different.

Speaker 1:

I believe that the scripture is at a standard that is different than other things I would read and consider. I believe in the God breathes nature of the accepted canon of the church. I believe in the inspiration and fallibility of scripture, so I don't read scripture in the same way that I read a textbook on psychotherapeutic modalities, but that does not mean that there's no value in that. And a common thing that will come up is the Bible doesn't teach anybody how to do brain surgery. It doesn't explain any number of things. The Bible is a very specific series of testaments written by the people of God through the inspiration and the spirit, about the journey, specifically the journey of relationship and redemption between God and His people is how I would describe, and that is a big thing. But that is also not the entirety of what human life is. And so to the bypassing in the term spiritual bypass. Is this idea I'm going around someplace, I'm avoiding something, and even looking at that at the lens of scripture.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot of stories in scripture of individuals seeking to avoid something difficult, and it's amazing how shortcuts aren't necessarily given Right. There are a few examples that come to mind. There was the story of Abraham wanting to live into what was told to him by God of that he would be the father of many nations, and he got impatient and had doubt that this idea of you know my wife is old. Will this be possible in Sarah presenting Hagar and leading to the birth of Ishmael. But basically, god said that, like, this is not what I've. You've tried to make this happen. You've tried to make a shortcut.

Speaker 1:

There is the people of Israel at the base of Mount Sinai waiting for Moses to come down. They're impatient, they're trying to, and they convince Aaron to make a golden calf. Yep, that causes issues, and it's just time and time, you know, and you look at Jonah trying to avoid, like God tells him to go to Nineveh. I don't want to do that. And so there's so many things in the Ark of Scripture of God taking his people through hard things, and that avoidance isn't usually the thing. And so when you're using even the words of Scripture to justify your avoidance, as therapists we find problems with that Thoughts on that Matt.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, we find problems in that because we know that it's going to lead to more heartache for the individual. It's not that I have any issue with someone utilizing Scripture to do counseling, like I value and affirm and champion that. I think my fear is that that person, or if I were to do spiritual bypass, in a sense of how I do my counseling, that I'm going to hurt somebody in the process or they're going to become more hurting through that process of not facing that which is in front of them and trying to avoid it.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you know, shortcuts is one way to put it. I think it's ultimately all of us at some point in our life has have avoided a difficult thing. And I don't know about you, david, but for me, every time I've avoided or procrastinated or done anything that's not facing it head on, it's not gone great Like. No God has used. I can't be an example for me. No, you know, god has used things that I failed in to promote His power and glory, and so it's not that they've come out a terror, you know, but for my own personal satisfaction, peace, contentment, they don't work. The avoidance of things doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

And so that's where my concern is, as we talk about this, for anybody listening, or to simply say again, we walk a fine line in this of like to simply say God's got. This is ultimately truth. But I think where I found issue with it and someone has kind of done this more and more is that as the circumstances get more difficult or the pain intensifies, they didn't start questioning the very truth of well, where is God? I thought he did have it. So I think sometimes spiritual bypass even leads to doubt of where God is in this process, because I think to some level we've been taught in the church an elemental fact or elementary fact of once you and maybe not taught it. Let me be careful, like, maybe insinuated once you become a Christian, life should get better.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I think there are churches that do teach that.

Speaker 2:

Well and or easier or less painful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but this is your, this is your easy ticket and we have been promised that we will suffer, not just in suffer in spite of our faith. We will suffer in times because of it. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think, yeah, in John, where Jesus says in this, in this world, you'll have trouble or tribulation.

Speaker 1:

But take I think it's.

Speaker 2:

I think it's in John, but the you can cross for the but the but the I've seen the word trouble or tribulation even boiled down to you will have pain, and I love that being the word because I think that is a foundational truth, that all of us, that we will experience pain. But then he says, take hard, I've overcome the world. And so that's where it's to face that, it's not to extinguish the truth that we say in these moments of spiritual bypass, but it's to understand the like you said. I think that in between spot let's, let's face that thing we're trying to avoid with the idea of bypass is that I'm skipping ahead?

Speaker 1:

Yes, like this is the destination we all will be in glory in that for those who who are of God's people. But there's steps in between and part of how I understand the whole narrative of Scripture is the story of God's work, but also God calling his people into participation with him, of in that work. It's subordinate completely to his role, but he wants our involvement. It's the calling of women and men throughout the Archive Scripture to do things and to show up and to push into things that are difficult and even not knowing exactly how it's going to work out. And sometimes we have this idea that God can work like a vending machine, that if we punch things in in the right combination we can predict the result, and I think that makes God an instrument of us versus the other way around. And realizing that you know that's you know again, keep on. Going back to the word attention and people. You know you might be thinking at this point like okay, like I don't want to do, like what are examples of this? So just some things to highlight Examples.

Speaker 1:

You're using prayer or scripture reading as a superficial way or avoidant way to deal with different emotional relational issues that are kind of going on and I can give some examples in counseling. With this, I think of a particular case where it was a number years ago where I was working with somebody who you know. There's a lot of estrangement and fractured relationship in their family, a lot of hurt, and when trying to talk about it they would be like, no, we just need to pray about. I have. I have been witness quite a bit to passive, aggressive praying where it becomes people like you know. We need healing our relationship. Let's, let's go to the Lord this and pray and basically they're telling to God and I'm doing air quotes in this in front of you all the ways that they see that you aren't living up to the expectations that they should be doing. So it's a very negatives like I'm not going to tell you directly, but I'm going to tell God in front of you. Here are the ways that you're not living up to the expectations I think you need to be in our relationship and it's you know people are trying to be met with.

Speaker 1:

It's a barrier to the sense of authenticity. It's also this place where people will justify their view of scripture or of God to do things that are unhealthy and harmful. Now you could stop there, be like well, but who's to say it's unhealthy or harmful, and it and I'm not talking even necessarily about like a worldly standard of that, I'm talking about a scriptural standard for this. One of my great mentors in counseling, who's also gone on to heaven, douglas Rosenau, who's a psychologist and close mentor of mine he would. One of the things he would talk about that I still think about a lot is that proof texting is not theology, and proof texting being the idea of am I going to find a scripture verse, an individual scripture verse, to justify what I want to do? And the truth is you can do that for most things. You can find some, but scripture is not designed to be broken up like that. It is the whole of scripture.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

And sometimes, when you do that approach, you get contrary messages about what you're looking for and at times that then will cause people to, I think, again doubt and just say like, oh well, scriptures, there's flaws within the arc of what is being said, because I'm pulling out aspects that are seemingly contrary to one another.

Speaker 1:

And I think some of that is even just assuming that I know exactly how to interpret everything. It's one of the like well, this doesn't make sense to me. I know so many people that will push against the scriptural mandate because they'll say, well, it doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, I get a pass. And it's like well, first off, that pre-assumes that you're the smartest person in the world and that if it doesn't make sense to you, then it just can't be true. But here's the thing I cannot explain Black Holes very well, if at all. I think most of my concept of Black Holes comes from my concepts of dark matter, and my concept of dark matter has been overly influenced by the reboot of Star Trek the movie that happened in 2009, where they like collapse the planet.

Speaker 2:

So I am not like. Now the movie Interstellar. They recently came out. Years back, I read an article. This is so tangential, but like that actually is the closest thing to what a Black Hole truly is.

Speaker 1:

Sure, and I was like oh, but even that is the closest thing, it's the closest thing.

Speaker 2:

It's not the original sort of.

Speaker 1:

But for me, if someone was explaining somebody who's wise in physics, is explaining Black Holes to me, and at some point I just lose the thread, which is not going to take very much, I don't know. This doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, it can't be true, and think of how often we approach theology in that way, so many of us. So I think, to take that the thing. It doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, I'm going to pass on holding up to this One. It assumes your own competency and intelligence, which probably isn't a safe bet. It's not a safe bet for me. And the other is it assumes that obedience requires a sense. In that way, and honestly, obedience happens outside of that.

Speaker 1:

There's a quote from the CS Lewis book Paralandra, which is the second book in CS Lewis's Space Trilogy, and I'm going to paraphrase because I'm going to get. But basically, it's talking about obedience and, like you know, what you call obedience is only doing what you see as right in your own eyes. Where's the joy and the surrender? And basically, and you're given this opportunity of obedience to you to walk out of your own will, and that is both scary and liberating, but to take scriptures as a whole. So, going back to the question of like well, what defines unhealthy? And I'm not talking about like a secular, worldly view of unhealthy I'm talking about.

Speaker 1:

You know very clearly in the scripture kind of talks about these times when we use prayer wrong that we were talking about different scriptures and you highlighted this but Isaiah 1, 15 through 16. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you. Even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood. Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight. Stop doing wrong. And the translation you were quoting from Matt Haven had. What was the phraseology you said?

Speaker 2:

About the. Was it the Amos first? That was a different one.

Speaker 1:

But particularly the Old Testament prophets. But there's the book of Amos kind of talking about. Like you know, I despise your Psalm assemblies. I just rise your prayers Like, yeah, there's this idea that God does set, like you just saying I pray to you about this does not make it okay. Right, there is a standard of what you need to ask for, needs to be aligned with my heart, holistically, yeah, and we're given this in glations. We're kind of laid out with the fruit of the spirit and this is what I come back to. So much the time of determining.

Speaker 1:

Is this healthier, unhealthy for people of you know of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and the examples of negative spiritual bypass is usually the absence of one or many of those things. And even take one of those things, a common phrase that people will be like well, it's love. And you know I, you know I'm justified in this and love, Well, oftentimes it's not taking a very nuanced or deep view of even love. We're taking a very one-dimensional, shallow view of that. But even then, the fruit of the spirit isn't. You don't get to loud to like I'm not justified to be lacking self-control, lack of patience, lack of kindness, as long as it's in the name of love.

Speaker 2:

Well, one thing I've heard somewhat recently in the clarifying of that passage is, at least to my knowledge, it's not the fruit's plural of the spirit, it's the fruit singular of the spirit are all these things, and so the plug one out of it is to deny the power of the spirit holistically, and so I think that was a helpful way to frame it for me to say no, I can't, I can't pick and choose of the fruit that comes, because if I am aligned with God, if I abide in Him, this is the fruit that comes. It can't just be one. And that's so good. There is a sense to, and I want you know I said we're not going to talk about tension, but here I am upholding the tension between the spiritual realm of trust, faith, worship, praise. It says like I am going to pray about these things. I'm going to, because I know that there's some that listen that maybe come from even more bad charismatic background that believes a lot in the spiritual gifts of prayer, even maybe prophetic word, these things that I think that I don't want to throw out as it relates to in comparison to obedience and the acts, the doing.

Speaker 2:

But we have to hold attention between the two because I've seen it that you could swing the pendulum too far either way. So spiritual bypass may be more leaning into. Well, if I pray and if I haven't a faith, then it just clicks and it'll happen. I don't have to really face it or do anything about it, I just trust in God to do it. And when maybe he's calling you to trust him by moving, taking steps of faith, well, the other hand is sometimes I've seen a lot, even in my work with men too much reliance on the actual obedient steps of maybe spiritual disciplines to then enact the faith, so to speak. And so we do have to find that middle ground between the two, to where we don't swing too far and say, well, now I shouldn't pray, I just need to act, I need to do, do, do, do, and that's not also going to help.

Speaker 1:

Talk about the and process, like we need to be these things and these things, but we need to be in this way and be in this way, and it's usually so much and for us it feels like a multiplication process. But I think for God it's part of the holistic nature of it and there's so much that we talk about in Christian theology of what it is for Jesus to be fully God and fully man. What is it to be fully in the Word and fully in the Spirit? What does it mean to be in? And I think there's a way of being that, this idea, and I love what you because I not heard what you said, matt, about that interpretation of Galatians. I not heard that before but I would. You know, initially I feel very like in accord with that idea of this idea of like this is a singular fruit. This is one thing, and to to be manifesting one aspect of it. You know, presenting Apple cores is not presenting apples.

Speaker 2:

Cut that rice. Yeah, that is not seeds are not the same as Apple. Apple stems yeah.

Speaker 1:

Apple stems, not the Apple skins. It's not the same as apples, Like it is the whole of it. Yeah, and then that represents the fruit of the Spirit and that you know in Jesus himself put this in Matthew 7, 17. So every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. And I have sat with people in the spiritual bypass place where they're saying all the things that in the church lingo excuses what they're doing, right, and I have sat with people and said to them like your fruit is not looking very good. So the reason I am challenging this is because that has been the standard scripturally we've been given. Does this bear good fruit and the fruit is bad? We need to be really questioning what it is.

Speaker 1:

The Pharisees knew the scripture, but Jesus called them out quite a bit of how bad their fruit was. Yeah, the story of scripture is full of individuals within the legalistic framework of the law that are challenged as poor fruit bearers. Yep, and to see this whole list, and so you know if you're struggling with estrangement in your family, yeah, absolutely you need to pray about it, but you also need to be looking at like are you manifesting humbleness? Are you manifesting I'm thinking the picture of my mind and this is a lot of just the people I've worked with I'm picturing a man, kind of a dad, older, male sort of figure, who has a very kind of domineering, legalistic way of things.

Speaker 1:

Scripture comes up a lot, but it's usually scripture in the sense of commanding his wife or his children, or something like that, to actions that he does not feel that they are. You know meeting, and I think of one dad over the years of he just wore out his kids and how he spoke to them and he felt his big thing was that my children aren't showing me respect and he threw out the scripture of the importance for them to show them respect. I go, I could see that, but I also don't see you giving them respect and he was offended by my challenge. With that he goes I don't owe my children respect. Now I put on proverbs. I'm like where it talks about do not aggravate your children, do not like. And that was an example of like. He was all about the scripture that suited the narrative he was trying to tell and we came on cherry pick Right.

Speaker 2:

Right, we can't end. There's again danger in cherry picking, not in a sense of just what we're talking about, but I think that process, to which I keep coming back, to doubt, because I've dealt with a lot of people who have faced such hardship, especially over the past few years, as we've gone through a pandemic and a lot of social political unrest, and lately we're recording in 23 and it seems like financial struggles, inflation, I mean just there's such existential pressure that I think this concept, whether consciously or not, we are continuing to do as it relates to us as Christians, is to say, well, god's got this, and again, it's true, but we cherry pick things of what we believe God to be doing. So, for instance, one I don't know what favorite passages, but we so often use it as like Psalm 23. And so it's like he leads me by still waters, he cares for me and he does do those things, but sometimes the waters that I'm next to are not still raging rapids, and so what do I do in that situation?

Speaker 2:

So I think that my hesitancy for people to do this process of spiritual bypass, to cherry pick scripture that fits their narrative of not having to face the pain that's in front of them and some of these things like, let's be honest, some of the financial crisis stuff, some of the things of COVID, like you can't control those things.

Speaker 2:

You have to almost hold them with an open hand to say, god, I don't know what you're doing, but how do you continue to face it and wrestle with what is coming up inside of me, and oftentimes, what I've given people to do somewhat to stir this up is not to just say, you know God, be with this person or be with us in this situation, which, yes, ask him to be a part of it, but then to share here's what I'm experiencing, god inside of me, to get more intimate with your prayer that says God, I'm feeling terrified right now. I don't believe that you're actually going to do something. I'm struggling with doubt To actually bring those things to him. I think are really powerful ways to not to actually use prayer in a way that addresses the core issue, rather than just kind of that passive approach.

Speaker 1:

No, that's so good. I'm going to swing a little slightly into the even the non-scriptural realm of where people will use bypass, and this relates to where I think, because you talk about the tension in political discourse and this is where but basically it's a skipping process, where I don't want to live in the tension of this and this. I've seen this happen a lot with families and friendships where there's a divergence in their political perspectives, but then they assume a certain tribal, creedal way of thinking and talking about things that shuts down the ability to navigate difficulties or relationships or healing. And so you'll start talking about something along certain lines and someone may push back of like well, you just that just woke, that just you know. And if there and you know, if you talk about, if you use certain words like justice or marginalization, or like there are people that just will shut down and be like well, that just woke garbage and I don't want to listen to that, or without any, without sitting in it at all, without even considering it, and the other side I've heard people on the more progressive side, you know will just say, well, that's just the patriarchy or that's just, you know, a sign of oppression or privilege or whatever it is.

Speaker 1:

But we have these quick, fast lane sorts of things that are so in the space of the political climate that we live in that it just like I'm going to skip this relationship. I'm going to skip, yeah, seeing what you may be saying, I'm going to skip whatever hurt this is. I'm going to skip whatever hesitancy you have and I'm going to label you as oppressive or phobic or naive or whatever it is. Whatever quick thing I can do that keeps me from dealing with you as a person.

Speaker 1:

And if you're, if you're hearing this and feeling convicted.

Speaker 2:

good, yeah, you haven't turned us off by now. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, you know you're speaking to that quick lane approach and as you were talking, it made me think that's part of the reason I think we've had such polarization in our society. We become polarized because we sacrifice the relational aspect of the other person based on their ideology, and so when it doesn't align, we just quick, because I and I don't know if that's holistically because we just don't care. I don't think it's that.

Speaker 2:

I think that we have more of God's DNA in us than we give ourselves credit for that. There is a part of us that wants to have peace and relationships like every, every person does. That's our image of God bearer kind of thing. I think it's more that we are so exhausted and we have no emotional reserves left and so, because we're so tapped out, nothing is feeding us that we just kind of go to these quick fixes, because I mean, that's probably why I think we're so attracted to things like this is a rabbit drill, but like social media, even AI nowadays, like everything feels like it's too much to deal with. I just need something to quickly.

Speaker 1:

I think it comes to this desire. We desire to be our own gods, we desire to have mastery, and if something forces us in a discomfort, we feel out of control. And we feel out of control because the one thing that God probably never feels is out of control. I hope he never feels yeah, it just. But it is like God feels grieved but like not out of control, and that is a human condition. Yes, I don't struggle with that. But in this tension of and so in the work that Matt and I do as therapist is sometimes I feel it's slowing people down as they're trying to skip over things, and that's often a tension I experience in the therapy space. People come in and they'll often will have an idea of what they want to accomplish, but they want it easy. They want it like I want to repair my marriage, I want to deal with this compulsion of my life, I want to deal with this fear. What is the quickest way? What's the bypass I can take to get there? And so much of our work in the initial process with people in therapy is basically helping to set the stage for this is a process. It's not necessarily going to take forever, but we're going to have to walk through some hard places to get there and you can try to skip it, but I don't think it will help. And that is the thing of when habits and there's so many different things in life of there seems to be a factor of time in creating a habit, creating mastery in something. Malcolm Godwine in his book Timmy Point, I think it is talks about the rule of 10,000 hours and it's not original to him. It's a social psychology, sociology thing, but that's the idea that to create a certain level of mastery in something you really need about 10,000 hours of doing it.

Speaker 1:

And I've certainly experienced that as a therapist. I remember very distinctly having a week where I just felt in a certain groove. I just felt like I'm getting this and all that and I was rereading I'd read it before but I was rereading tipping point at that time and I had a thought and I did some calculations and I figured out I was just over the 10,000 hour mark of doing therapy. I just because you keep track of stuff like this as a therapist early in your career, because you have to log a certain number of hours, and so I had it to a certain point and then I just kind of did some rough math based on like I was averaging this many hours a year and I've been doing it for this many years, so I think I'm a little over 10,000 hours, and it just felt different. And it wasn't that I didn't have anything, any skill or any quality in my work before then, but it passed a certain point.

Speaker 1:

And when people are experiencing they're trying to change things in their physical health, they're trying to eat better or they're trying to exercise more, you can get, you can do certain things to maybe get quicker results, but they don't stick as much as as deeply changed habits. But the I want to share a quote. One of my person I fall really appreciate their work Preston Perry, who is a evangelist, apologist, poet, public speaker. He and his wife, jackie Hill Perry, do some great stuff. They have a podcast, 30 minutes to the parries and other things, and I'll give them that to link to the show notes this quote, because they have a line of clothing.

Speaker 2:

You're doing this in attempts to get them on our podcast, aren't you?

Speaker 1:

That's what you're doing That'd be great. I love Preston, if you're listening. I'd love you to do the poem who gives a black man permission to cry, because it's a beautiful poem about mental health and all that. And this is a quote, because they have this line of clothing that they're involved with that has the slogan Jesus and therapy.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, yeah, I think it's great.

Speaker 1:

But Preston's telling the story of being I think he's in like Lennox Mall, which is in Atlanta and he talks about you know, he's wearing this shirt Jesus and therapy. And this older man comes up to him and says yo, man, if you have Jesus, you don't need therapy. And here's the full quote, ever in doubt. And Preston said I had this hoodie on and some older man saw me and he said if you got Jesus, you don't need therapy. And I was real tired that day and I said I bet there are five people in your life that wish you went to therapy. And I experienced that.

Speaker 1:

Because that is because usually, if you're the person that spiritual bypasses a lot, there are people in your life that wish you didn't and that wish that you were walking with somebody that helped you send that attention. It could be therapy, it could be with spiritual counts, it could be with pastoral counts and it could be in spiritual direction, could be lots of stuff. But what is it? To sit in the hard places? Because if you look at the earthly ministry of Jesus, there's a lot of sitting in hard places. Oh yeah, there's a lot of. He didn't do 40 days in the wilderness on the 15 day track. There's all this and even in his tension, the shortcut, jesus the shortcut.

Speaker 2:

The shortcut.

Speaker 1:

Jesus is tension, asking the Father.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Will this. Is there any other way?

Speaker 1:

Is there any other way? Yeah, but then stepping into obedience in that, but not my will, but yours. Be done in this. And you know, old Testament has a lot of years for people of Moses not going back to Egypt to lose 80, not getting them to the promised land to lose 120, and then him not even be able to go in he couldn't even go in. Yeah, there's a lot of waiting, there's a lot of process and there's a lot of formation and there is repetition, there's kind of going back and that's the another way I guess is thinking about bypass is fast lane.

Speaker 1:

I guess we keep on because when I think about bypass, when I'm coming up to a city, it will be the bypass and this is this idea of like this is the quick way around, you can avoid the traffic and spiritually I don't think it works like that and I think some of that is the function of.

Speaker 1:

We are finite beings in that we exist within space and time. My belief of the world to come is that I will continue to have a physical body, hopefully with some fewer aches and pains and other problems, but like I'll have a physical body, that I will inhabit a physical body. That's part of my what I believe in kind of going forward, but because of that I have a certain time in the universe that I came into existence. But if I am living to eternity, the idea of spiritual formation is this constantly evolving process makes sense, cause I'm not going to reach a point where I'm done? I don't think any of us do, I don't think that's part of the vision of that to be finite. And if we're being called into intimacy with God and if God is infinite, has no beginning and we are finite, that means journeying into intimacy with God is a ever going journey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1:

So it's a long process, but I it's worth it.

Speaker 1:

Come see a therapist, a good one for her. We know some, yeah, we know some, but what you do it is the here's some practical things. If you're sitting with somebody as a professional, as a lay person, there's some research that kind of highlights what are the things that really kind of help people. As there's, as you encourage people in the practical steps, of sitting in tension, of looking at practically what does acts of love look like for themselves and others, not a thin, shallow concept of love, but a true, deep sense of it as informed by scripture. What does compassion look like? What is altruism in the sense of doing for others in a way that isn't about meeting yourself, because that's the other thing. I see a lot in spiritual bypass. It's usually people demanding that their own perspectives or needs be met in that. And if you're listening to this and you feel like man, I feel I've done stuff like this in my life. We all have no-transcript this is unique.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I think of mine even as this concept of saying to somebody hey, I'll be praying for you. When I want to give a kind answer or kind comment to them in their struggle or whatever's going on, I really just want to end the conversation, yeah, or in so many times this is my confession is I don't end up doing it, or I don't end up truly doing it, you know, in the sense of like God, be with them but like to really feel and like intercede for them, and so that's been one that I've recognized have done even recently. So, yes, I'm so glad you said that, because this is not something that I want us to communicate to you listening that stop doing this as like one of us from top down, but as equal pairings. That, yeah, we do this too. We try not to do it as much within our practices or in our guidance of other people, because we've seen some of the damage of that. But in my personal life, when I check out of the pastor therapist role, I sometimes I fall into it because I'm tired, I'm worn out, I'm exhausted, and so there's grace there.

Speaker 2:

I think it's really good for us to just bring it to light so that we can do more of the interceding. We're actually stepping into our own personal ways. The hard things together and that's one thing, too that I want to just communicate is this is done, I believe, with others. You know I talked about the prayer concept of bringing my emotions to God to bring my frustrations there. That's a piece of it, but I think deep relational change as it comes to my relationship with Christ is done in community, and so I have to also communicate to a trusted person that this is what's going on. This is difficult for me. I'm not going to necessarily scoot around it. Yeah, this is really tough, and even if it's doubt, I'm going to bring it up and talk about it in a safe way.

Speaker 1:

Part of this pain, as you're talking about this is what's coming to mind. Part of this pain that we're trying to avoid through bypass is very much often a pain that happens in the context of relationships. That's right, and not always, but often and it's are we willing to do that? And you know, I'm to highlight some scriptures that I've had noted for this before. Ecclesiastes two, nine through 10, two are better than one because they have a good return for their toil, for if they fall, one will lift up his fellow, but woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up. Galatians six, two bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ, this idea that we sit with each other in the grief, and Matthew five, four Christ saying blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted, and I think it is an invitation, and the opposite of bypass, I would say, is an invitation to step into, to discomfort in a lot of different ways, but very specifically grief, the grief of I feel out of control and it I feel laid low because of it. I feel out of you know, I feel alone, I feel whatever it is, and you know, as we all fall into this. I think to to think about what is sitting and suffering. Well, look like and you don't have to acknowledge that it's not required that you like this. I say this to people all the time in facing grief or facing something difficult, I'd be like, look, you do not have to like this. Yeah, when I'm giving them as a therapist, when I'm giving them kind of a series of directives for what? Like you liking this is not a requirement and in fact, you accepting that you're not going to like it in some ways is going to make it easier to do. But but it is you talk about. You know, I feel I think a lot of people struggle with this, as, as a white southern male, there's a lot in my social DNA that, particularly in the sense of loss and grief, there's a lot of impulse to give platitudes and death and suffering, and oftentimes they could be very kind of spiritually sounding platitudes like I'm going to pray for you. I'm going to so something I was.

Speaker 1:

I was speaking to a friend the other day who works in the same field, but we go to church together and I hadn't seen him in a little bit and we were out of service and and I went up and I was just wanting to catch up with him socially and professionally and he was like how's it going? And he's like it's been hard and oh, what's been hard. And he talked about, you know, a family member of here of his who's been really ill and he goes. I guess it's been hard and in me initially would be like, oh, that's, that's hard, I'll pray for you in that, right, and just to move it along.

Speaker 1:

But I kind of caught myself in it, not that I always do just in this moment and I wanted to lean into more. I said I will certainly want to pray for you in that. What's her name? And he told me and I made a point later that night with my wife is we are like hey, I heard this. I really want to pray for this person by name and not just be something I say and you know, yes, this brings up a good point and I think we're almost out of time.

Speaker 2:

I'll say this is my kind of closing thoughts and I'll get yours. And so just to give a couple ideas of maybe how to not bypass with someone who is sharing something hard with you, because there is the reality that you're probably having this conversation, maybe it's in the halls of your church. It's kind of you ran into them at the store or the restaurant and so it doesn't feel like a socially appropriate place to go deep into this conversation. A couple of things to maybe consider is, if you are in a place that's more private, instead of saying, hey, can I pray for I'll pray for you, to maybe even pray for them in the moment, I find that to be kind of a way that really addresses it then and speaks to it. But but even to the place to say, hey, I know I can't, we can't really talk about it right now, but I'd love to maybe grab coffee or lunch with you and just kind of hear what's been going on.

Speaker 2:

You know, offering the space to invite someone to a lower or deeper level with you, I think, are ways that we can maybe invite people with us to deeper spaces, to not bypass the hard. Recognize that, yes, in that moment it may not be appropriate to do it, but but could you find another time? Or, like what you said, David of you know, I really do want to pray for, for this person. Can you give me their name or what's a specific request that you're seeing in this time? You know something that they can. It takes it a level deeper.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and to riff on that for a quick second as we're wrapping up and you've got to find people can even do that, I find, in ways that are off putting and avoid it. There's an example that comes to mind for me is there was somebody who I knew very loosely. They were the spouse of somebody I was working with and very much in a charismatic sort of lens, and I realized for a lot of people that could could be that. But but she, we were at an event, a conference, where her husband was working, and she was just there and I said, hey, how are you doing? And because it's all her lobby, she's like oh, I'm about to go upstairs and have some intercessory time, what, what can I pray for you for? Oh, yes, and I said nothing comes to mind.

Speaker 1:

And that was an avoided answer, because here's the thing I didn't really know this person and I didn't really feel comfortable getting into, because part of spiritual bypass to is I'm trying to bypass building a relationship with you. I'm going to use the spiritual bypass to just kind of go and like well, you need to tell me what are your deep, like part of me, and be like I don't know you, I don't like. I like. It's not that I don't have things, but this is in a relationship of trust and there's the holistic nature of this. This has to happen in the context of a holistic space with people. If there isn't trust that there is a relationship, this doesn't work Right and and so not necessary to give the overly spiritual answer in that. But what is? And in the context of and in the counseling bit, you know, if you're asking yourself, am I engaging with unhelpful spiritual bypass? How can I tell?

Speaker 1:

And not to be overly simplistic, but I do think the marks of the fruit, of the fruit of the spirit, is that is this is what I'm doing, getting in the way of me, living in Love, kindness, peace, patience, self control. It is that game of why, because oftentimes it's usually pretty clear that that it's absent. Some of those are, sometimes all of those. There's this idea of if it's, I'm trying to speed up the process, is this showing patience? Right, if I'm demanding in this moment, is this showing self control? Is this showing long suffering? Yeah, and if it doesn't line up, then I have no problem saying in in that, when they're saying like no, this is from God, I'm like no, that doesn't line up. God said what the things that would come from him would look like.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2:

We are about out of time, so we appreciate you listening to us or even watching us on YouTube. We encourage you to go back and listen to some of the others that we have done about four others Again. We don't know where the slides in the order of things, but keep checking this out. Reach out to us, let us know how we can speak to things in your world. Yeah, so, david, thank you again, absolutely. Until next time, which likely be next week, presently yeah, we'll do this again. Yeah, yeah, well, we'll talk to you all soon.

Speaker 2:

Thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of Church Psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to Church Psychology, wherever you're finding us, and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.