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Church Psychology
Mental Health Professionals looking at the intersections of social & behavioral science and the formed Christian life. Visit us for free resources and more at www.ChurchPsychology.org
Church Psychology
Should a Christian Seek Therapy?
Ever pondered why a firm believer in the transformative power of faith might need therapy? Is it a sign of wavering faith or a tool to bolster spiritual growth? This episode of Church Psychology unveils just that, shedding light on the pivotal role therapy could play in a Christian's life, while dispelling related misconceptions.
We take a journey back in time, traversing the historical and social contexts of psychotherapy, and ponder if our ancestors required such intervention. We also discuss how therapy, a discipline hardly a century old, has evolved to become an essential tool in the modern-day Christian's life. Touching upon the role of psychology in Christian counseling, we explore biblical instances where wisdom was sought beyond scripture, and emphasize on subordinating worldly understanding to the scriptures.
Diving deeper, we consider the symbiotic relationship between secular wisdom and biblical truths and how this potent combination promotes healing. We explore the significance of counsel and community in spiritual growth and discuss how therapy can provide insights into life processes that are often overlooked. Navigating the delicate balance of power dynamics, we delve into the essence of therapy - seeking secular or faith-informed wisdom, not just an affirmation of our existing beliefs. So, tune in, for this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone grappling with the relevance of therapy in a Christian's life.
Show Notes:
- Genesis 30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+30%3A37-43&version=ESV
- Exodus 18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+18&version=ESV
- Galatians 5:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A22&version=ESV
- Matthew 20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A25-28&version=ESV
- 2 Timothy 4:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+timothy+4%3A3&version=ESV
Hi there my friends, dr David Hall here with Church Psychology. In the episode we're getting into today, matt and I are delving into the question that we find that gets asked in one way or another a lot, which is why might a Christian need to do therapy? Why might a Christian need to see a therapist? Now, matt and I are kind of biased, as we both work as mental health providers. We believe in the benefit of therapy, but it is a valid question because if we believe in the transforming saving power of Christ in us, of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, might that not just solve everything? It's a fair question. We have a biased answer to it, but that's what we're getting into today in the conversation, so let us slide into that intro music.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our Oakland Community Library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you are finding us, and also leave us a review as we start. If we are to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work. Welcome everybody to the Church Psychology podcast. My name is Matt Schooniman. I'm here with Dr David Hall. Hey, matt.
Speaker 1:David, it's good to see you. Good to see you, as always. What are we talking about today?
Speaker 2:We are talking about gray skies and rainy days.
Speaker 1:That's what we're talking about it is. We are in our offices headquarters of Nagev Institute at the Westfield Center in that's in the Westfield Tennessee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the.
Speaker 1:Westfield Center and the Bearden neighborhood of Knoxville, Tennessee. We generally have fairly nice weather, all things considered.
Speaker 2:This time of year, yes, but for whatever reason, this week has been cold and wet.
Speaker 1:It's all over the place. April is typically a weird month. I remember a few years ago it snowing in April, which, in Tennessee, is weird. I realized that.
Speaker 2:That's very weird actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very weird, but I don't remember.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we're in the middle of that. It's going to be a moody one. It's going to be one of those melancholy type episodes, as you can see through my window.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for those who are watching on YouTube or online, you can see. Just it doesn't look too bad right now for my view, but no, no, but yes, in light of Melan, there's no one we're talking about.
Speaker 2:No, but in light of Melan Colley, maybe we're going to talk about the subject of why do Christians need therapy?
Speaker 1:Because it's a question, it's a question that gets asked either accusatorily or guiltily. Yeah, and we kind of see it From my perspective. We see all sorts, because it is this there could be this underlying idea that if you are walking in faith, walking in the spirit, then your mental health is good.
Speaker 2:And I laugh, not because I don't want people to have poor mental health, but it's just. It's just not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just not true.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's this common concept of when I meet Jesus, everything's supposed to work out right, Like I met the Lord. And now all my sins and all my cares, everything's just taken away from me. And yes, your sins are taken away, but the problems of this world persist. And so a lot of new Christians and old Christians I've seen struggle with this idea of why am I having such trouble still? Yeah, that's a little broader than, I guess, the area of mental health, but I think it plays into the idea of therapy or counseling being needed by believers Because we face struggle, or we, yeah, we face struggle and we often have questions of how to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it is, I think, kind of in that there's this idea of like is this a failure of my faith or failure of my trust? Yeah, or take your pick on so many things, but at the same time. So that's the accusatory question either self-accusatory and guilt, or somebody else putting that out. But if someone's new to listening to this podcast or you listen to it for a while, either you'll be familiar with this refrain or you need to get used to it, which is it depends. That's a favorite therapy answer. It's a both-hand. It's rarely. This absolute like is therapy Is that question about? Or this accusation that Christians shouldn't need therapy. Is that misguided? Do we think? Yes, yeah, we're also. You know, we're therapists and so we're inclined to think that. But I do think it's important to pause and consider the question, because I think sometimes we'll just dismiss it out of hand without looking more deeply at it. So that's what Matt and I are going to do today is kind of look more deeply at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah. Where should we start in the exploration of why Christians need therapy? Where do you think we should go first?
Speaker 1:I would like. I'm a history dork. I want to start there. Dork is such a fun word he is, he is, yeah, but I'm into that.
Speaker 1:And because it does, the profession of psychotherapy, of the healing of the soul, is what psychotherapy means, that as a professional discipline, hasn't existed for very long. It's only about a little over a hundred years that it's been like its own thing in the way that we understand it. And so then the question then becomes and this is part of the question of why do Christians need therapy? Because Christians were fine in the past without therapy. No one, you know, our grandparents, didn't need therapists, and my argument is, I think sometimes they didn't need therapists. But, going back to the question of like, but that's not the point, yeah, yeah, that's not the point, yeah, and I would say that, throughout history, counsel has been a part of society and life, both for believers and unbelievers. That's been part of it. It's been housed, though, in different places. Traditionally, in traditional societies, there are people that are the source of counsel. It is usually, though, a mixture between physicians or nurses, people of a healing of the body and the mind would be the idea, clergy of some sort, whether Christian or non-Christian, whatever priesthood or religious teachers or even just community elders, and throughout their archer scripture there's this idea of people, because of their experiences or positions or things like that, people would seek advice from them. That was the thing. But we still have those and the question is, will we still have older people in our lives, most of us at least. We still have physicians, we still have clergy. Why now this?
Speaker 1:And I think it's significant to look at that this came up in the context of an industrialized and a post-industrial society, without going too deep down that road of the industrial revolution. What does that mean? What that practically means is that there was a lot of social disruption in ways that there wasn't a lot of comparison of before. So my family immigrated from a few different places, because I have ancestry from a few different places in Europe but I'm aware of one of my great-great-grandfathers was an immigrant from Scotland. He came from Perth. I was researching him fairly recently, about 120, so years ago, 130 years ago, and I have reason to believe that his family was probably in that part of Scotland for centuries. And this idea of living and growing up in the same village that you, where your parents grew up and met and married, and when your grandparents and so on, this idea of moving about wasn't necessarily a thing. Your family would have been German, or at least your princess side.
Speaker 2:Oh, very German, very, very German, no-transcript. But then for a long time they stayed in the well, at least my dad's side, they stayed in the Michigan area. So there's the Industrial Revolution, but then there's even kind of a I don't know if this was the same, it was not the same but even kind of mid 1900s of my dad's journey of like uprooting for Michigan and coming here and having to reestablish community, and so community was a big deal, I think, more of a big deal for much more of our generational past than it was for us. Now it is.
Speaker 1:And the stability of community. Part of how the Industrial Revolution affected things was that people moved off the farm and moved into cities and worked in factories because fewer people were needed on the farm. And but then also just the opportunity. You talk about your family leaving Michigan. My dad grew up in upstate New York and so and I was born in Tennessee, and so there's this idea of just more recent generations, the idea of social mobility in positive ways that it meant. But the negative side of things is your access to sources of counsel were interrupted.
Speaker 1:That's part of it, but also like got a lot more complicated, that we were dealing with things. When you live in like an agricultural based society, what you're dealing with socially and economically is fairly similar to what generations before dealing with. But all of a sudden the automobiles invented and you're up in Michigan working the Ford factory. Your grandfather doesn't have a lot of input about what that is like because an assembly line didn't exist for him and the same way of like talking about the stress of social media, there isn't, and so and we see specialization happening in so many different things, Part of in a post industrial society. So there's displacement is one aspect of things. The other thing is specialization, and whereas being a physician was a much more generalized sort of thing. If you become a physician now, you go into a specialty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you go into family medicine or pediatrics or neurology, or psychiatry or psychiatry, and all that because there's a lot more to know and there's the opportunity to kind of go deeper into things. And in the past there weren't professional therapists. There also were not diesel mechanics or software engineers or cosmetic dental surgeons or take your pick on so many things that just didn't exist. Now people will say like, yes, but there were people in relationships and emotions in the past. There weren't computers before. That's why we didn't have software engineers. We did have people Right, and my argument for that is there's the opportunity because of capacity in a post industrial age to get more specialized. Yes, there's stressors that come from living in a more complicated space.
Speaker 2:Well, you almost have two questions at hand then. Yeah, I mean to some. Concept is do Christians need therapy? And to some level that the answer is yes, because we've always had some level of therapy, and we're going to talk about some of that maybe in a minute. Yes, but then another question yeah. The other question, then, is also do Christians need therapists, like the actual profession that they are?
Speaker 1:Independent of clergy or independent of doctors.
Speaker 2:If we've grown up always kind of needing it. We've received it in different forms, but pre-industrial revolution our community was in a sense that provided everything to us. Yeah. The clergy there, the family there, all those things were in a sense community. That addressed some of the difficult issues. Now I think, to some level our issues have become more complex and that's somewhat of culture and reality. But therapies are in some form, has always been there.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say that Therapy has always been there. The reason we need therapists is because, as the issues that thrive people towards a needing council have become more complex, the idea of having people that are more specialized in how that works makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's not that people in the past didn't deal with distressing things, but historically, from one generation onto another, there was a lot more continuation between the things and how they distressed. Because I'm in my 40s and when I look at teenagers I work with as a therapist, just a generational difference between the 25 or so years between me and them of what is distressing in their lives. Oftentimes their points of what's causing the unhappiness or melancholy in their life were things I didn't have in my life. They just didn't exist, because often times it's by technology and there are other factors to it. So because of the mobility, because of the complexity, the same way that if you needed a bit of metalworking done, you had a blacksmith in your community before Now, as machinery and things like that get more complex, you need more specialized mechanics or machinists or things like that to make things, and so, as the world gets more complicated. But that's kind of one aspect of things.
Speaker 1:Now here's a secondary question that comes in this, as you said, or tertiary I guess, because you asked decrysiancy therapy and in the wider sense of counsel. I think we've answered yes, because we've always experienced that. Yeah, decrysiancy, therapists, people that specialize in it, we've kind of spoken to that. The last bit is and this often times comes from the question of why should Christians do therapy? Because isn't the Bible sufficient? Is the question like isn't there enough in your or the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Or what scripture tells you? Because this idea of psychology is pulling from a worldly place of wisdom and it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And some of that is because the science of psychology began to develop in the context of the Enlightenment, which was a kind of a non-religious and, in time, anti-religious sort of thing, and so that is what we deal with. But there's a story that I like. It's a. There was this Saxon village in Transylvania, which is part of Romania now but traditionally had a lot of German people there, and there's this particular community, bierenton, I think, is what it was called, but they had this marital prison is what it was known as. Basically, if people Prison or prison Prison, like jail, so what it was for 300 years, if couples in that area, if they were struggling in their marriage, particularly on the verge of separating, under the supervision of the local Lutheran bishop, he would lock them in this room until they got it worked out. Now, some would argue, was that the most effective therapy? The records were that actually it did seem to save a lot of marriages. Now there could be bias in the record keeping, things like that?
Speaker 2:Oh sure there's no bias in that. Yeah, I'm sure there's no bias.
Speaker 1:But the example is is that like Nowhere is that in the Bible? That was something, though, their clergy did in order in their role of kind of support and counsel for marriages, and this was their method. I'm not saying it's a perfect method, but it was an interesting thing.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking about like these clergy sitting in a room together being like we've got all these tough marriages. What should we do? And someone's like lock them in a room?
Speaker 1:As force, you when you can't escape. And we see that in couples work that you and I do, matt, that there's this idea and in the sense that there's commitment. Yeah, when there's commitment, you work things out differently than if you're constantly looking for the door.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now it's like 60%. That's such a good success rate, because the other percentile was death. You know, either they fixed their marriage or one of them died, and either way.
Speaker 1:either way, that could have been it, but so we want to take three scriptural examples though, because basically this idea is the Bible and the Pull us back, yes, pull us back, yeah. The first I want to highlight is in Genesis 30. And this is kind of an obscure story for a lot of people, but Jacob, one of the patriarchs, is working for his father-in-law, levin, and is in charge of the flocks, and he's got his own flocks. He gets Levin flocks, but basically Genesis 30 talks about Jacob setting up broken branches around the watering troughs in such a way that allowed for selective breeding and in the process Jacob's flocks multiplied and became stronger because he kind of knew how to manipulate the breeding habits of the sheep.
Speaker 1:Now, that's not a scriptural. This is out of Genesis, before the Torah was even written down. But this was basically the scripture talks about. This was Jacob was observant and insightful and because of that there was fruit in them. So that's in Genesis. Second is in Daniel 1. It talks about In that it talks about Daniel and his friends Shadrach, meshach and Begnego. Or, as I remember it from a Inventures in Odyssey thing when I was a kid, shadrach, meshach and a Begnego and a Begnego.
Speaker 2:I thought you were going to go the Veggie Tales route and I was like I want to be skinny, I'm a different generation.
Speaker 1:We need to do a whole episode on Inventures in Odyssey for those of that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:That's a great Anyway. But what it says in Daniel 1.17, I believe it is, but it said God gave these four young men knowledge and understanding of every kind of literature and wisdom. And in the context, this was not the Torah, this was not Talmudic wisdom, this was not from out of Judea, this was Babylonian wisdom, this was in the context of this pagan world they were in. That was the standard they were being judged by, that they were wise within this non-scriptural sort of thing and this is talked about as a good thing. And the last example I think is Paul in Acts 17,.
Speaker 1:Aropagus, I believe, is how it's said, aropagus serving, but basically Paul's in Athens and he's trying to reason with the Jews in the synagogue and it's not a very receptive audience, but the Greeks come to him and talks about the Epicureans and the Stoic philosophers and he engages with them in kind of using their own terminology, in discussing the things pointing to the one true God. So those are three examples out of Scripture that I think were worth highlighting in the sense of Scripture does point in multiple places in this idea of that there's a benefit in wisdom that isn't necessarily just based off of Scripture. Scripture is unique and set apart and above these other things, but not to the complete exclusion of all these other things. Scripture points to this idea of seeking out wisdom outside of itself.
Speaker 2:It's qualified differently, right, yeah, that's on that note, yeah, I mean, I know, some listening are probably like oh yeah, this makes total sense, I go to therapy every day.
Speaker 1:you know everything, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean maybe.
Speaker 2:And then some are probably squirming in their seats and just like oh watch yourself like you don't want to go against the word, and I agree, I think, like you're saying, the qualifications are can you put it through the lens of scripture and hit quote, unquote, be okay, you know, I think that the reality is, I think is that there is how do I put this? Our DNA, or we are all image bearers of God. Not all of us are redeemed, but we are all made with something that is unique to ourselves. I may have mentioned this before in a podcast, but just in the concept of even our thumbprints, our fingerprints, being so unique, I think all of us carry a unique element of God's character very specific to us. You know we all have similarities to some level, but we're all very specific and so we bring things to the table of this world uniquely.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes God is doing by design, and so sometimes these non-quantum quote scriptural truths that can be very valuable to people, such as some of the, some of the things that we've learned in therapy, or, I think, by design to help people steer themselves back to Christ, like there's it's always, can there always be something that points us back to him, and what I have found is that when I can find integration and that's, in a sense, what both of us are, david, you and I and it's integration of these things is when they help fuel the biblical truths.
Speaker 2:That's where like even when they come from people that aren't believers, some of these things have been so powerful to see them kind of connect and really help people find more about themselves, find healing in the world, find healing in trauma or brokenness and ultimately point them back to Christ. That's where I think they align and become so powerful. So you know I agree with you, but I think that, just so that people hear that our hope is that not to use these kind of worldly understandings for just the sake of having them, but they're there for intentionality to grow in what God is calling us to do and I think that's what happened in these stories of Jacob and Daniel, and even Paul using some of his things is so that it draws us back to a relationship with him.
Speaker 1:Church Psychology is a production of the Negev Institute, a research resource and teaching initiative that aims to provide Christian communities with practical education and consulting to faithfully speak to our needs in mental health, relational science and human habit and behavior. A great way to support Negev is to start a free membership at our open community library at churchpsychologyorg and then stay connected with our email newsletter to hear about new classes, publications, live forums and in-person events. Again, you can find all that at churchpsychologyorg. There's a subordination, I think, in the process of these kind of worldly sources of knowledge, part of, and Scripture gives us a lot of direction but not necessarily method. In all things it gives us some method, but ultimately Scripture, as I understand it, is not a manual for all things in human life. A classic sort of thing like Scripture doesn't tell you how to do brain surgery.
Speaker 2:but even in the sense of the emotional spaces, scripture is the story of God's redemptive work and relationship with his creation, yeah, and I think that that's why maybe just to play devil's advocate for a second is, I think a lot of people would be like, yeah, it doesn't talk about brain surgery or engineering or mathematics necessarily.
Speaker 2:But when psychology's name is the study of the soul, if it's soul work of any kind, I think that's where people are like soul is tied to what God says about a soul and that's where it's in the Scripture. And so I think we also have to recognize, and in patience with people as they wrestle with do I need therapy? What is? My views on it Is because there's a connection to the emotions in the soul that feel like it has to have subordination to Scripture. And that's true, you know, and I would encourage anybody for anything If it's not therapy even. I would even go so far as like any kind of self-help book or new trend of discipline, and you have to, if we're going to claim these things with therapy, that they have to be subordinate to the Scripture. So does all these other trends that are coming out as far as self-improvement.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. The psychology in its true sense is a study of a method of how something is, not how something should be, and I think part of if we take the authority of Scripture on our souls, it's about direction, taking the example, like there's the. We're committed in Scripture not to be anxious. Part of how I look at what we do as counselors and psychotherapists is what is the pathway to, or pathways to, anxiety relief, because ultimately it's named that anxiety is not something we should be living in. But how does that practically get accomplished? And I think the overall arc of Scripture is looking at to seek out wisdom, subordinate to it, subordinate to the laws of God, but to be open to there's this filtering process you're talking about. That I think, is important. So in going to the next, I guess natural question in this is what are the considerations? And because I do think there are pros and cons and again it's both that we're always going to kind of get back to both ends. So here's a kind of pros for therapy, like there's so much in as Matt, or we're prepping for this episode. He gave the example, thought of Exodus 18, of Jethro coming to Moses. Jethro is not from the Beverly Hills billies, but Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, but coming and basically the story is Moses is sitting in judgment in front of the people all day and is wearing himself out and Jethro tells him he's like, basically says what are you doing? You shouldn't do this. You got to delegate, buddy, you got to delegate. This is foolish. And lays out for him as a wiser elder lays out for him here's a better way to do it. And it talks about how Moses took his counsel and Moses' life got better because of that.
Speaker 1:And the odd thing about what Matt and I do is that, because it's a discipline like a vocational discipline, we got into this as we were young and so it's a strange thing and it's something that a lot of young therapists talk about that I had people twice my age, when I was in my mid-20s, coming to me for advice and that's a strange sort of process.
Speaker 1:But the way I assess it now is not necessarily that I'm wiser than the people I'm counseling in an absolute sense, but I may have a particular insight on a certain process because I've studied the processes of anxiety. This person who I'm giving counsel to may have so much more wisdom than I do in so many other areas of life, but they're coming to me for input on a particular method. And in the same way, one of my expressions in therapy is, even as I grow in my own experiences, sometimes that gets in the way of good counsel. But one of my expressions is that intimacy and objectivity work against each other. And I'm not a parent and I've come to see that some of not being a parent actually allows me to give some better counsel, sometimes about parenting, because I don't have my own parenting and my own journey in the way of what I recommend. What I recommend is a different angle that isn't tied in with my own emotions. It's kind of all right.
Speaker 2:So right, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know Advice. One thing that's interesting is that, like again, we all need some level of counsel, and I think we'll have some other scripture, maybe a little bit of where, or it's encouraged, because one thing about counsel that's real interesting is the community element of it. You know that there's. You cannot. We were not meant to live this life alone, even from the beginning of time. You know Genesis of being. It's not right or it's not good for man to live alone. Now, I think that in our Southern cultural Christianity, what is meant, what we see in that, is like oh man, people need to be married. Well, in what is formed in the Genesis, creation is, yes, a relationship between two people, but it forms a people, a people that see after God basically Israel, you know, ongoing but the form of community being that, hey, I can speak truth into your life and you have the humility to listen and implement. It is, I think, also ways that God speaks to us through other people. Now, why did God change his mode of talking to people?
Speaker 1:from Old Testament, I don't know, like there's, there's, you know we don't necessarily hear the audible voice of God as much as the Old Testament did, but I do think that we have the ability to counsel each other and through that is God's presence kind of going to each other, and so even in this very accident is the nature of counsel being so important to our lives, both giving and receiving In the story of Exodus, though that in Exodus 18, it is, it's God isn't speaking to all the people who speak in Moses, and it says that the reason that Moses is sitting in judgment over them is because the people, moses says to Jesse, the people want to know the words, the will of God, so they come and get it from me and you know, it's the part of the living in the fullness of community and I guess that's part of what we're getting at too. Is this that what we envision this as? Is what is the fullness of community, of giving and supporting and as communities allow certain people to be more specialized in certain needs of the community? Whereas there were a lot more feet maybe before in talking about the body, there are a lot more feet Now. It's like people that everyone would have been afoot.
Speaker 1:Now this person's a pinky toe and this person's a big toe and this person's the shin or what you know. It's the. It gets even more specialized within afoot. That the opportunity for that, but the. So I think we've, I think we've made a decent case in this idea that counsel's been all throughout scripture. Yes, yeah, the idea of of living in a context that, at least on a certain law of chicle level, makes sense of why we need specialized people in this and the idea that wisdom, being both within the direct directives of scripture and those things that we're we're, should seek out in wisdom in general, taking through the filter of the overall arc of scripture.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it's separated from it, but this idea of coming through it. But the in my experience at this point in culturally, in the space that you and I live in, met the clergy pastors are generally much more supportive of therapy than it definitely was when I started. Yeah, there's some holdouts and here's what I notice as a dynamic of holdouts of individuals. Oftentimes I don't like speaking in absolutes because I'm a therapist, but oftentimes this really feels like it's coming from a place of people trying to justify their own positions of power. Sometimes it's pastors, it's fathers, it's husbands. Historically it was slave owners.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that we're in a position of social power, even exploitation, and wanting to buttress up to support the sources of their power. And for pastors, I've experienced, as it's the sort of person that basically doesn't want anything, speaking into people's lives outside of their own filter. So it will often be in the words of well, I just take the Bible and I'm sorry it comes with that accent, but where I come from, it comes with that accent. I just take the Bible for what it is, but often it means is like well, you're taking your own interpretation of it, because we're always interpreting scripture, and the verse in this that it comes to mind when you look at the power dynamic is it's in Matthew 20, 25 to 28. And I'll just read the verse because I think it's really good.
Speaker 1:Jesus called them over and said this is to his disciples, because they're quarreling with each other about their positions. James and John basically asked like can we sit on your left and right side? And the other disciples get mad and they're all just kind of bickering. So this is the context of what Jesus is speaking into. He says you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in high positions act as tyrants over them. It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. And the question so here's a filter If someone's challenging this idea of like you should be going to therapy.
Speaker 1:There are two questions. I have One how would they look in the light of that scripture, that specific scripture? Is this about them lording over their power like the Gentiles, as tyrants, or is it from a place of service? The other thing I think comes out of is Galatians 5, this idea of whatever I'm hearing counsel from anybody. I think the question is is this a manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit? And is this, am I hearing from somebody who is manifesting this from a place of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? If it is the absence of those things, if this is about their own impatience, their own short-sightedness, their lack of compassion, their lack of you know, I believe scripture, not my own instinct, even I believe scripture gives me reasons to question that counsel. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the person giving you this counsel is evil, but are they speaking from a godly place?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a good question, you know, I think, for, again, you know I'm an advocate for therapy, obviously, but I want to also kind of honor those that are kind of like I don't know if this is right. And so I think you know we've talked about some of the pros and we've really been an advocate for that. But what about times when therapy is not the option and we need to look for other things?
Speaker 1:I think there's. You know, we live in a time and place where there's a lot of medicalizing yeah, just the normal developmental sorts of things People will use and misuse, I believe, therapy words like trauma talk about like and here's the thing, matt, I believe in trauma, emotional trauma.
Speaker 1:we believe it's a real thing. Yes, however, tiktok and whatever is kind of slid that into, yeah, just like, oh, this I'm distressed or I'm feeling, you know, or this idea I'm depressed. Are you sad or are you depressed? We have, as clinicians, we have boundaries for what those things mean.
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes therapy can take the place of friendships and developing the discipline of developing friendships. Sometimes therapy can take the place of just sitting in discomfort, of discipleship, of being sensitive to really kind of spiritual promptings. There's so many different things that we can say like, well, is it therapy or is it not? And we also what are the dangers of therapy? And I know so many therapists that do this. If you come and do therapy with Matt or I, there are few things that I can tell you, and one of it is is we aren't necessarily going to agree with you on everything, and we will tell you that because we see that as part of our jobs.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of therapists that don't do that. I know a lot of therapists that are very. You know you've got to speak your truth, whatever that is, without any challenge or qualifications, and if it just becomes, I'm paying somebody to reinforce what I want to hear. Yeah, and the scripture in this that illustrates is 2nd Timothy 4, 3. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctor but, according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves, because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear, and I know so much of what people have the expectation. That's what therapy is about. Therapy is about tell me what I want to hear. Yeah, now I would argue. Good therapy isn't necessarily just that Right Tecular or faith informed, but it is what a lot of people seek out, and so I think there's a pause. It's very rarely, I think, in either war.
Speaker 1:I think it's kind of therapy, and yeah a lot of what I want my work to do is to help form people, not in the therapy space alone, but how it pushes them out into their relationships and into how they are in the rest of the world. I don't want you know the only time that the sorts of conversations my clients have to be in the space with me. I realize sometimes they come to me and I'm in the only place that they can have some of these conversations. Yeah, but I don't want it to stay that way and I want what we do in therapy to help push them out into relationships and deeper friendships and these things.
Speaker 2:You know. I think that an encouragement I would give people is, in a sense, to test the waters of the people that you know. Like you said, at times I've noticed even in my line of work whether not well, some here but definitely within the church I work with. I will get into conversation with someone looking for therapy or counseling and they will say things about their process and what they're longing for that honestly feel more like a friendship need or a discipleship need. I have questions about the gospel? I have doubt, and it's very natural to have those things, but what they're seeking is someone to guide them and walk alongside them.
Speaker 2:In that Now we would get in the weeds to talk about where's the boundaries between counseling and discipleship and some of that stuff, because I think there's a lot of opinion on kind of that gray line between the two. But you know, do you have community around you? Do you have trusted people that could hold your story with grace and compassion? My prayer is that you do and, if you do, to be able to bring that, bring what's happening inside you, to that person. You know mature people and maybe there are few and far between nowadays, but mature people will be honest with you about. You know. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I can help with that, you know, or like point you along the journey, because you know a therapist can be very specific and should be very.
Speaker 2:You know, let's go deep and let me guide you through some of this. That's some of our training and how to have those types of conversations, but sometimes to test the waters can also be relieving of the pressure that's on you. You know, if I can even just share my story with someone and hold it with grace and compassion that is life changing at times. And then it's like oh I, you know, I just needed to tell someone that, or I needed to, I don't need to be alone in this thing that I have, and so that would be one of the places at practically, I think, in how to maybe encourage someone that's considering therapy or questioning if I should, just to maybe have a conversation with someone about it and see what that produces and give them grace too, because I mean, I even hesitate to bring that up, I think, because there's at points to which I don't want people to be like to give you wrong counsel, you know, or be or to kind of follow the second Timothy passage here. Yeah, we have to test this waters.
Speaker 1:We have to test waters because some of you all have unwise friends. You don't even listen to them and clients of mine will tell me things that their friends are telling them. Like you quit listening to them. But so you know a refrain you'll hear from Matt and I a lot is the both and, yeah, it is both. You know the. You know sometimes it is the professional sort of thing. Sometimes you know part of what we offer as professionals isn't just a specialization of knowledge. That's part of it. Sometimes the part of what we offer somebody who's outside of their lives, and so you get a different perspective.
Speaker 1:It goes to my thing, before talking about intimacy and objectivity are mutually exclusive. I know a lot about my wife. I am not objective when it comes to her, yeah, nor can I be, nor should I be, yeah, that's not my role in her life. But for her to have other people that are more outside of that, because you think of your spouses, your children, your parents. You know your close friends, your coworkers, who they are, your relationship with them is intertwined in such a way that certain things are just harder, harder to see, harder to say, harder to do. And I think, recognizing that limitation, realizing like I need one of my graduate school professors very wise man talked about one of the things he said. That he said therapy was lots of things, and one of the things that stuck with me early on is part of your job is to say socially inappropriate things to people, and I take a lot of relish in that, realizing that sometimes I'm saying things to people that they really don't want to hear, but I'm the only person maybe in their orbit in this moment that can say it. But yeah, but I want to add something else to what you were saying about testing waters, and I would say this too is we'll do an episode in the future about finding a therapist, like how do you choose a therapist?
Speaker 1:There's a question that comes up, as people will say like do I have to see a Christian therapist to get good counsel? And here's what I would say it definitely helps, but I've known people that are Christians, that are professional therapists, that are very unwise and not necessarily good therapist, and I've known people that aren't believers that I think do good therapy. I think it's ultimately taken through the filter is is this counsel I'm receiving? Is it forming me in the ways that are consistent with the Christian life as given to us through all the different sources, how we understand, through Scripture, through the traditions of the church. So is it making me, is it leading me in this direction, without any other issues, because sometimes the method does matter and there are things that we should have paused about.
Speaker 1:But, barring a methodology that feels wrong or unsound, is this leading me in a correct direction? And I believe we can sit with believers that can counsel us wisely to a point. And yeah, so it's the so, as we wrap up on the first question, which is you know why Christians need therapy? Because the world's complicated, because Scripture calls us, I think, to seek out wisdom fully, because we're supposed to walk in humility. I think all those reasons are the wise that we do Now. Christians don't just need therapy. Christians also need discipleship and formation in all the different ways that it happens.
Speaker 1:And therapy for a lot of us is a part of that. And people will ask me too and I'm sure you get this, matt like people will ask should everybody do therapy? And my response is always like, well, yes, but I'm a super biased source. It's sort of like I'm a hot sauce salesman and you're asking me like do you? What food needs? Hot sauce. Everything, Everything yeah, everything, and of course I'm bought into that.
Speaker 2:But I'll say it this way not everybody needs therapy, but everybody needs counsel.
Speaker 1:I would say that, yes, I would say that.
Speaker 2:And actually you know, if you want more Scripture on the need of counsel, basically read Proverbs.
Speaker 1:I think it's like what was the one, what was the? You like the King James version of this?
Speaker 2:Yes, so Proverbs 1114 says where no counsel is, the people fall. But in the multitude of counselors there is safety, and so surround yourself, whether it's with a therapist or others, but those who give sound counsel to you, because it does produce safety, and I think it's the A form of how God uses His voice to guide you. Good stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well thank you, david, for your words in this and I really enjoyed this conversation because I hope that maybe stir some of you to maybe not go to therapy but at least look into it, but definitely see counsel. Maybe, but to definitely seek counsel in your life of what God is stirring in you. So we thank you for listening to us, as always, whether you're watching us on YouTube or listening to us on a podcast platform, and we look forward to bringing you more soon. Until then, have a great day Later.