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Church Psychology
Mental Health Professionals looking at the intersections of social & behavioral science and the formed Christian life. Visit us for free resources and more at www.ChurchPsychology.org
Church Psychology
Understanding Anxiety from a Biblical Perspective
What if your anxiety could speak? What would it say about the world not being as it should be? In our conversation, we wrestle with these questions, unearthing the complexity of anxiety, its neutrality, and its roots. We probe how modern culture has influenced our understanding of this emotion and explore the diverse biblical perspectives on worry.
From the nuances of feeling anxious to the fresh approach to dealing with it, we dive into the Greek translation of Scripture, illuminating a deeper understanding of God's commands. A spotlight is thrown on Philippians 4 and its call to avoid distractions. We also engage in a profound discussion on the differences between discipline and suppression, drawing insights from Jesus' experience in the Garden of Gethsemane. We emphasize the importance of presenting our emotions to God, regardless of the outcome.
The episode concludes with practical strategies for managing anxiety. The power of gratitude and the significance of seeking support are discussed. Through God's word, we learn to see ourselves in relation to Him and gain insights from Matthew 6. The closing reflection centers on finding inner peace amid distress, the role of Christian faith in bestowing it, and the importance of accepting our emotions without judgment. Get ready to embark on this enlightening journey to understand anxiety.
Notes:
- Philippians 4:6-7 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=philippians+4%3A6-7&version=CSB
- Matthew 6:25-34 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+6%3A25-34&version=CSB
- Mark 14:32-34 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+14%3A32-34&version=CSB
- Philippians 2:25-26 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=philippians+2%3A25-26&version=CSB
Under Pressure Article - https://negev.ck.page/under-pressure
Welcome. This is Dr David Hall with Church Psychology. Today's episode is a conversation about anxiety and this was one of my favorites we've done so far. But we kind of delved into the interesting ideas that we have about worry and anxiety, how it's been shaped within the consciousness of modern culture, very much influenced by the mental health profession. We were also very curious to get into the biblical perspectives of anxiety and I learned some things in researching this episode. Putting it together, I'm not a Greek scholar, but we got into different translations of different sorts of words for worry. What does that mean? What does scripture kind of tell us about our own worry and anxiety? And it was a fascinating conversation. I hope you all tune in for the whole time and it's something that you can enjoy. But we're going to drop into that intro music now.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and also leave us a review as we start. If we were to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work Well. Welcome everybody to the Church Psychology podcast. My name is Matt Schooniman. I'm here again with Dr David Hall. Hey David, hey Matt.
Speaker 1:We're at it again. We are at it again. This is you know, for I assume we're going to keep the order the same. Our last episode that we recorded yeah, it was our first, like we. The problem was starting anything, and if anyone out there who has done a podcast is thinking about starting podcasts, here's the rule. I can tell you you're never going to be like super thrilled with the first things you do, but you got to get them done, yeah, and you can't. But, like last week or when we recorded last and what was our topic, I was just thinking like, oh yeah, so what did we talk about?
Speaker 1:But I have to remember. Now We'll totally talk about the travel board. Oh, why was the interview therapy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, it was that one. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was good too. The interview with you about like pastoral therapisting was really good too, so we hope we're getting better. Yeah, I think we're getting better you know it's on YouTube where you listen to podcasts, whatever Like. Oh, we hope you feel we're getting better too.
Speaker 2:There's gonna be a point. There's gonna be a point to where we stop recording this on like a Zoom platform, but then we're gonna do actual videos and they're like oh, they're upgrading in a fifth you know, they're following us in the process.
Speaker 1:Well, the other thing is, if you find us, if this is your first episode, welcome. Thank you so much. And you were like going back and being like man. That was rougher back then, but yeah, that's just the journey.
Speaker 2:That's how we do it. You know, sometimes I feel real. You know anxious about creating these episodes, david and so. I thought we should talk about whether or not it's wrong for me to feel anxious about these episodes. Well, actually, maybe the better question is is it wrong to be anxious?
Speaker 1:So today? Why do you ask that question?
Speaker 2:Because maybe I'm anxious.
Speaker 1:Why would you assume? Why would you?
Speaker 2:assume that anxiety is wrong. That's a great point. Well, it's not be super on the nose for everybody, because that was such a setup, but we decided to make an episode about this kind of essential question and it could be applied, I guess, to other emotions. But we take anxiety as just the focus today, Partly because I reflected on this a while ago. I've written an article and I think we'll post it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll have a link to that. Yeah, to the post of this article in the log, but yeah About anxiety and the article is titled Under Pressure, what Anxiety Can Tell Us.
Speaker 2:And I read this line from a website and I don't remember even how I fell upon it, but it just struck me. I'm musical by nature or at least in the sense of I've grown to love music. I think, david, you're very much the same, but we both have a history, david and I, of music in our background. Mine's much more on the worship side of things, david's in songwriting, which I would love to do an episode on your wild history. I think you sent raw YouTube where you are, but mine was in worship music and there's been a lot of songs recently created in the Christian music realm or worship music realm of this concept of I fear has no place here. I'm resisting fear and even externalizing it as this. Being that, I'm against and even let me pull that up real quick.
Speaker 2:But even the line was like from this website anxiety is a demon that can dig its ugly talents into us at the worst moments. And even how they use the word anxiety. It made me pause because in our work as counselors, I don't want people to necessarily look at these intensive emotions, although painful, as bad, or even good or bad, like they're neutral in nature. So I wrote an article about kind of what anxiety would be. But that's kind of the impetus of all this is trying to analyze. Is it wrong and just to focus on anxiety for this episode? But is it wrong to be anxious and so to jump?
Speaker 1:into this idea of neutral. I mean, I'm going to add a layer to that, Like.
Speaker 1:I agree with what I think you're getting at. I would say anxiety is bad in the sense of like it is a function of the world not being as it is that we feel at level of distress. I would say it is not what you were getting at. That I would absolutely agree with is that it doesn't represent, I think, a culpable wrong on somebody's part who experiences the emotion. It's not. There's this idea. Is anxiety and we talk about? Is anxiety wrong? But as, looking at this from a kind of a Christian perspective, is anxiety sinful? Because and the lead into the question of like, why would we think an emotion is wrong? Partly because we've been told that many of us for those of us growing up in church circles we've often been told that fear is wrong, the anxieties are wrong and there's scripture for that, and that's kind of what we want to impact today. So I want to give a disclosure here and particularly for anybody who's far smarter than us, listen to this. Neither-.
Speaker 2:It's a long list of that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah. Neither met nor I are Greek scholars, biblical scholars, I've done. I've done a few classes on parmeneutics in graduate level. I'm not a theologian, yeah that's more than me.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and we've. You know I've done zero, though like biblical language courses. I had to practice quite a bit listening to YouTube clips to make sure I could say these names, right of these Greek words. We're going to do, and I probably won't. So if you are somebody who knows, if you don't have to be a biblical scholar, if you've just done some Greek languages, you probably are a little bit ahead of us. However, we're trying to take this at the line of as mental health counselors and try to unpack because ultimately, for those who native language is English, there is emerging and diverging of different words that come to us from the original biblical languages and oftentimes something gets translated or assumed to be the same thing and it's not. We're going to unpack two words that appear in the New Testament that relate to anxiety or the relate to the sense of it. So the first is and again forgive my pronunciation, marina, that's good, that was good, I had a good. You think it's good because just a good?
Speaker 2:tone. I mean like there's almost no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I can't do that.
Speaker 1:So it is. It gets translated in English as to be care or anxiety, and highlight passage is where this comes in. It is what is used in 1 Peter, 5, 7, luke 8, 14, luke 21, 34. It's also what appears in Matthew 13, 22, mark 4, 19. And to give highlights, these are several passages where the impetus, the command, is not to, and so I'll read out of Philippians 4, 6 through 7.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about anything, but in everything, through prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to God, and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Similarly, matthew 6, matthew 6, 25. This is a prize talking about. Therefore, I tell you, don't worry about your life, what you will eat, what you will drink, about your body, about what you will wear, and it goes on in the. Similarly, 1 Peter 5, 6 through 7. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in the proper time, casting all your cares this is the same word in Manorna on him, because he cares for you. So I've heard, growing up in church and being formed around Scripture. I've heard these Scriptures kind of used as basically a kind of command against anxiety. Have that been your experience, matt?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, and that's a little bit of the nature of Also, depending on your biblical text and what version it is, to have the phrases even I don't have it in front of me, but the passage that you said, Philippians 4, don't worry about anything, don't be anxious about anything.
Speaker 1:Like it's another form of.
Speaker 2:And so I mean you chose it well. I think it's more in just the sense of you have these commands in Scripture and we've taken it super literally in the sense of the English that they are, and I'm so glad that you're kind of digging into the Greek, because when growing up you kind of have these commands of Scripture that feel like well, that's saying to me I can't feel anxious, or if I feel anxious I am wrong or I'm sitting in or lack of faith.
Speaker 2:Or, yeah, lack of faith exactly, and I think that there's a place to which maybe that wasn't for me directly implicitly stated, but there was a sense of like. There was no digging into that more to help me understand it. So I just kind of assumed well, because I'm anxious, I must not have faith, I must be doing something wrong, I must Like all these things, and so for me, and I want to be careful, it's not holistically. I blame my church upbringing, but you know, I think I attach shame to the anxiety at times.
Speaker 1:And there's nuance that matters in this, and so I want to unpack this word for a little bit and get. This is not a biblical scholar, but this is from Strong's commentary in Concordance. And so this is where I kind of Because, honestly, what brought this up to me? And this is where, kind of for Matt and I, as we approach the mental health side of things as professionals, but there's so many other things that we just try to approach as faithful believers, and this literally was, and one of the things I've been enjoying about the process of this podcast is this was just a question that came for us. It's like is anxiety wrong? And then this led me to kind of dig through some of these resources and we hope that some of this prompts it for you, if for you, to kind of pursue and look things up.
Speaker 1:The scripture when I'm reading scripture I typically the translation, I typically go to. The most Christian standard Bible is what I really like. Sometimes we'll do stuff in the ESV so we'll try to find things sometimes that have the wording that kind of hits the most, based on what we're doing. But for those who are interested, that's the versions we're doing. But going back to the word, in this case the marina here's kind of where and this is out of strong one of the kind of the roots of this is this idea is to be drawn in different directions or to be drawn to distraction. So one of the things that's interesting about this type of anxiety it's not just distress and we're going to get to that kind of unpacking, that level of it, because oftentimes we're quite, I feel, anxious in that I feel distressed in a certain way. It is not the feeling itself, it is the actions that the feelings draw out of us, which is a type and anxiety, particularly anxiety in our age, does have a lot to do with distraction or being drawn in different directions, and we'll have future episodes where we'll unpack anxiety in the context of social media and context of just living in the modern world, because there is this huge element of distraction to it. And so another way to kind of look at these verses and all these sorts of things basically don't be distracted, and it even assumes this idea that the hearer in this is finding themselves in a moment of distraction or a season of distraction, and so it's calling us.
Speaker 1:In this. It's less about the state of feeling and to riff on something you were saying before, matt, which is something I say to a lot of my clients the state of emotional experience. I believe this as a psychotherapist and as a Christian. The state of emotional experience is, I believe is morally neutral in that I feel any number of emotions, anger, any number of temptations. The state of temptation is not where there isn't culpable sin, in that it is where do I choose to engage with it? And this idea of when distress as something different leads us to distraction or leads us to not see the things to be let astray, and all of these sorts of things. Basically look at, like I am trying to, whether it's the Apostle Paul, saint Peter, jesus into the hearer in these different passages. Is this idea like here's what I want you to pay attention to, here's what are the things that you should pay attention to, here's what matters. Don't give in to distraction.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think about the aspect of action after emotion, and some of this is maybe tied back to my cognitive behavioral roots, but there's a level to which they all kind of interplay, and so a lot of times when I'm working with someone as it relates to emotion, especially really intense emotions or I've used the phrase, not original to me, but hot emotions, so the ones that feel super intense inside of you the list that has been given to me has been there's fear, sadness, anger and shame, I think, or your top four as it becomes most intensified. And so to recognize that these things come, and sometimes automatically, to where you almost physically feel it, before you recognize that there's an emotion there, and so it's really hard to kind of keep someone from never feeling it. Nor do I feel like it's ever good to just suppress all your emotions we deal with, I mean suppressed emotions do not work, they blow up somehow in a way, and so it's all about, I think, the response to your emotions and how do you respond in a new way or a different way from your kind of default mode. So when we talk about distraction, I think that in a sense what that's saying is do what's right with your emotions or don't pull yourself away from the source of what would give you peace in those emotions.
Speaker 2:I read even Philippians 4 in a sense of like look at what it's kind of calling you to do. Don't be distracted by anything, but in everything, through prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your request to God. There's a sense to which it is calling you. Paul is calling you to do something right with your emotions, which is to present it to God in a way of recognizing one God. I need you. So prayer and petition, I need you. Through these things, I'm desperate for your help. And Thanksgiving is one of the most interesting things as it relates to fear. I don't know if you've noticed this, david, but when I feel anxious and someone else has encouraged me in this when I practice gratitude, it eases the fear of the things, because there's a recognition here in the sense of Thanksgiving. I'm remembering what God has already provided for me, and so it helps ease the fear of what will God do for me in the future.
Speaker 1:Church Psychology is a production of the Nagev Institute, a research resource and teaching initiative that aims to provide Christian communities with practical education and consulting to faithfully speak to our needs in mental health, relational science and human habit and behavior. A great way to support Nagev is to start a free membership in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg and then stay connected with our email newsletter to hear about new classes, publications, live forums and in-person events. Again, you can find all that at churchpsychologyorg. Gratitude and the habits of gratitude are so important and there's so much rich benefit in that. To highlight some of the different things that you're saying that are really sticking out to me, I think there's the recognition of what are the actions that we undertake in the context of our emotion and there's some implications to that Some of it.
Speaker 1:You talk about this idea of suppression and we live in a society that throws a lot of psychological terms around amateurously and a lot of people say incorrectly. I want to highlight what it means for a technical standpoint. Discipline is not the same thing as suppression. Suppression or repression that's used a lot in psychology. It's the cutoff of the awareness of the emotion. If I am suppressing an emotion, I'm not even aware I'm having it. In psychological terms, we talk about that as a bad thing. I believe in formational terms, spiritually and otherwise, that's a bad thing because it is a denial of knowledge of something about ourselves in ways that discipline involves the recognition of something. I recognize that I'm angry. I recognize that I'm bitter in this moment. I recognize that I'm feeling petty.
Speaker 1:There are all these different things that I think report, that are not necessarily I wouldn't call them good emotions in the sense of like. These emotions exist because we live in a fallen world, but my moral culpability in them does not start with having the emotion. It starts with what do I choose to go with it? That's where discipline is deeply important. I think oftentimes people, they justify their impulsive or selfish actions because it's like well, I have this emotion, so I'm not going to repress it. That is not justify you acting out in your anger, your pettiness, your kind of things like that. The state of the emotion does not justify it. It's good to be aware that they're there, but that is, in a technical sense, within mental health, the difference between repression and discipline. So there's that bit.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I think is important to highlight with what you're saying Matt is bringing these things to God and this is, but here's. That means so many different things to our benefit and to the rightness of art, but here's something it doesn't necessarily mean. It does not mean the extinguishing of that emotion. We assume and this is where oftentimes we think we're not living faithfully, because it's like I feel anxious. I've brought it to God and I'm still feeling that negative thing. And did I do it right? And it is.
Speaker 1:Paul talks about this idea of the thorn in his flesh, of presenting that to God and asking for it to be removed. There are so many places where the feeling of that negative feeling is presented to God and is not removed. And should that be a sign of sin? And I would say no. And this is going to segue us into the next word, in the next moment of. So the other word that sometimes gets translated in this way is and I'm going to get this even harder, but the report said hopefully was that men and I was what we were before. It's where the examples before of that. But the other one is Adam and Neho. Adam and Neho, as I think, is what YouTube told.
Speaker 2:Adam and Neho.
Speaker 1:And so that gets translated as distress. And so there are two points in scripture in the New Testament where this is highlighted. One is in Philippians, and this is Paul. It is Philippians 2, 25, 26.
Speaker 1:And that verse it's a just a descriptive verse about kind of social things going on, but in it Paul is saying to the church in Philippians I considered it necessary to send you Epiphriditis I don't believe I get that right my brother, coworker and fellow soldier, as well as your messenger and minister, to my need, since he had been longing for all of you and was distressed. That is that word, adam and Neho, because he heard that, because you heard he was sick. So there's this idea of it's calling about the anxiety of the church in the Philippines, about this brother, that in that and there's no rebuke in that Paul is acknowledging their emotion of this distress. But I think the two other places where this word is so important, going back to this whole thing of like to present these emotions, to present the anxiety or feeling distressed, as God does not necessarily remove it, and the best example of this is the example of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. We get this in Mark 14 and also in Matthew 26. And it is.
Speaker 1:I'll read the version from Matthew. Then Jesus came with him to the place called Gethsemane and he told his disciples sit here while I go over there and pray, taking along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, which is James and John. He began to be sorrowful and troubled, and that word troubled in that translation is that word the Adam and the male. But oftentimes he began to feel distress or anxiety. And in the whole narrative of the Garden, jesus is asking the Father to remove the task, but in a different sort of way, to remove the cause of my distress, to remove my distress. But as he prayed, perfectly, it was. I have this petition, but not my will, but yours be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really powerful phrase because a lot of that happened in that space, that whole story, I mean.
Speaker 2:Just maybe we can deeper dive into his experience, because not only with anxiety or distress in this for this word, but also in the disappointment that he felt towards his friends, his deepest friends the three that came with him were the three of this closest circle and they kept falling asleep on him and so he needed them, in a sense, to stay with them, and I think he felt deep disappointment in the fact that they kept falling asleep.
Speaker 2:And so distressed of the task at hand, of what God is asking, to the distress to the point of sweating, drops of blood like the capillaries in his skin bursting, is, in a sense, what the idea would be, because of how much stress he holds in there, that if Christ in perfection is allowed to feel these feelings, whether it's disappointment or anxiety, how much more so it is. He have grace with us to have the emotions. But again, what does he do with them? Every time it's whether he's he's like is there any other way, god? Or every time that he goes to his friends and sees that they're asleep, he does rebuke them in that, but then he comes back to the Father and continues to pray. The source of his, his outpouring or offering of these emotions is back to the Father.
Speaker 1:No, it's so good, and it's the. There's the call to petition, which is where it highlights, with the other things before up to be focused. This was Jesus was distressed in this, but not in distraction. Yes, and because I think it's important, when this other word, the Adimeo, shows up, there's no rebuke in it. When it comes up in scripture, there's no like and this shouldn't be. It is a simple statement of what is and here's.
Speaker 1:Let's unpack this word a little bit, and the strongest commentary on this is this idea of, like you know, distress. Oftentimes it feels this idea of this feeling of fear, this lack of courage in it and asking for courage, kind of in it, despondent, discouraged. But one of the things I found most interesting and there's no good word for this in English and so it doesn't get translated in English this way but this idea of displacement from home, not at home. This highlights that the German translations of this verse, that the word that they use translates most directly, is unhomely, but that doesn't mean anything in English too. But it's this idea of I am displaced from where I should be, I am not at home, and there are emotions that come up for us when we are not at home, and some of it is this idea of sense of place, but also the rules of home, that this is what it is, to be exiled. And you know, as Christians do, we believe we live in exile in a world that is not under, not as it should be, and that's part of my understanding of sin sin in the sense of the world, not just our personal bearings of it, but that the world is not as it should be and we feel displaced and our emotions well up all the time, seeking for that.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite words to unpack is nostalgia, and what nostalgia literally means is to feel pain for home. I long for some of it. Oftentimes we'll feel nostalgic about even things we haven't experienced directly. It's a concept. One of my favorite songs is a song by the late songwriter Rich Mullins and it's called If I Stand, and there's a line in the chorus and he's going through the series of If this, then this. If I Stand, let me stand on the promise that you'll see me through If I sing. Oh gosh, I didn't even remember it. If I was singing it, I could do it, but the chorus ends if I weep, let it be as a man who's longing for his home. And it's this idea of like, if I am gripped with sorrow, if I am gripped with distress, let it be a reflection that the world is not as it is and there are things that should cause us grief to translate this into a different word there are things that should not feel okay.
Speaker 1:So I think, when we look at, even in our anxiety and so in some ways I guess what we're talking about and where we get back to the English word anxiety, is these two Greek words, I think, represent different places in it. The first is the initial emotion, the distress, the sense of displacement, which scripture has no rebuke for that. The second is the direction we then take. It's our action-oriented thing, the direction that we then take, the distress, and it is a reminder. It's not even necessarily. Even when I hear the rebukes in scripture, they're gentle rebukes compared to so many things. Basically, it is a reminder. You're distracted. I'm here to remind you of what the correct direction is for this. What is the path you're going to be walking? Which is these concepts of gratitude, the kind of reconfiguration of the order of the world that, if God has us, how then should we act Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think that maybe where my mind was going, even as we're talking about this, is what to give anybody that's listening, as it relates to anxiety that they do feel and I don't want to be too overly simplistic on it, because I think there's different versions of anxiety. There's general worry or concern to even some clinical levels of anxiety that rip you from a lot of different angles where you may need a professional's consult, at least on what's going on with you.
Speaker 2:But what patterns or what encouragement could we give to someone where we've kind of, in a sense, answered the question in a varied way of whether or not anxiety is wrong, but it's now. What do we say? What do we do with our anxiety? So how would we encourage someone of what to do with their anxiety when it comes?
Speaker 1:That's great, but going in full on therapist mode here are the things that come to mind for me Putting on that hat, as we say.
Speaker 1:The first is and this is what, if there's the one thing we want you all to take away from this episode is to de-shaming the process of it that I think a lot of us can feel, and I think shame, when it enters into this process, has this compounding effect on the distress, and so some of it is just acknowledging, if you believe, if what we've said has been true, if what we've been said is a true exegesis of scripture, a true unpacking and understanding of what the scripture means, and the implication is that my feeling of distress does not represent a lack of my own faith or a incorrect action on my part and I can be free from judgment combination specifically for myself. That I think can be in the beginning place of helping people in the ease of that I love. There's a great. It's a more recent variation of cognitive behavioral therapy that has given a lot of discussion. I find it really interesting. It's called acceptance and commitment therapy and part of their process is this idea of acknowledging and the acknowledgement of emotions. It takes away a lot of their negative power and if the goal isn't in the end, I've got to extinguish all anxiety to be okay.
Speaker 1:I think there's this idea of like how do I be okay enough in this moment? I acknowledge this emotion. Now what okay enough is looks different for different people. There are deep compounding aspects of anxiety obsessive anxiety, manifest infobias, obsessive compulsive disorder that become these deep, dark places for people and we don't want to minimize kind of that and that becomes me like seek out professional counsel, seek out medical, because there does become a place where the mechanics of our brains get our anxiety in a cycle that is so deep that it's really hard to think your way out of it on your own. But for the more run of the mill sort of things the idea of the acknowledgement that the emotion is now, what do I want to do with it and there are normal exercises that really do help.
Speaker 1:You talk about the anxiety or the gratitude process that is. There's great science between the whole thing as we focus on our gratitude. It does a lot to go from. I quote a rich mulled, so I'm going to go to Bing Crosby Wide range. It is Three. One Knows the Movie White Christmas.
Speaker 1:It's people in my family's favorites, but they have a song in this, like county your blessings or county my blessings in that, and it's that's very simplistic, of this idea of like, when you're in a place where you're feeling just like what are, even in the sense of mantras, how do I bring to mind and even speak into words what are the things I'm grateful for, what are the things and that it that is not a magic pill, that if you do that, that that will extinguish the anxiety, but it does move it in the right direction.
Speaker 1:And the reminding process, yes, and I think there's one more thing to add, which is I think we live in a world that is not great at this is ask for encouragement in people in your life. You know, matt and I were having some recent conversations as we work in the same community, as therapists, in the same practice, that what is it that we look for between ourselves and other people we work with that share this work of mental health counseling, and part of it is a sense of. We talk about the sense of accountability and support, but encouragement is a part of it. It's a big one for me, and just the willies to acknowledge we're like, hey, I'm not in a great spot.
Speaker 1:I think of a friend of mine who went through a personal loss some time ago and I was so grateful for what he did and this wasn't as a therapy role, this was just as his friend. But he reached out and he said I'm not doing great, would you mind coming over? It was late at night, but I went over to his house and it was just. I wasn't trying to give him therapy, I was just trying to be present with him to acknowledge it and stuff like that helps.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah yeah. Community is so important in this.
Speaker 2:Even the four letter word of help, like no one wants to say it but I think is so crucial in the process. I'll just kind of add to what you're already saying and just agree with all of it. Even as we look at some of the scriptures we talked about today, they give us a little bit of some framework of it, you know. And again back to the Philippians passage and how Paul encourages us to bring everything to God in prayer and petition. Then the aspect of Thanksgiving is we talked about with gratitude. I think that it's again to attach back to reminding ourselves of who God is and who we are to God. Even Matthew 6 is Jesus is talking about anxiety. It's on the heels of I mean, this is his Sermon on the Mount, so it's kind of a flowing thing with a greater message than just these points. But he comes right off of the concept of laying up treasures in heaven. So then he talks about you can't both serve God in money, and so he's recognizing the fear that we have towards provision. Ultimately is what it's saying Like? Because then he talks about don't be anxious about your life, what you'll eat or what you'll drink, nor about your body, what you'll put on. Is life not more important than food and body more important than clothing, and so he's recognizing the needs that are functionally there. But then he says look at the birds, or, in some translation, consider the lilies and the sparrows. Like there's a sense of remember these other things that I am. These are such smaller pieces of life than you. How much more value do I put on you than I do birds or grass? But you are my children, basically, and so in a sense, I think that whole phrasing there is to remind us of God's provision and so remembering, I think, is super important to the process of one building gratitude. That then affects our anxiety or lessens it because of the knowledge of God's work already in our lives. If he's going to bring us this far, how much further will he?
Speaker 2:What's that passage of? Like he who has created a good work and you will finish it? Basically that, but you're that one. I think it's Philippians. But like there is promises within scripture that I think we hold on to as we wrestle through our own anxiety, and it reframes it in a sense of it takes the distractions of the world we talk about social media as being distraction. Like there's an element of distraction being like I'm going to distract myself with these common things to help me feel better. But there's also the distraction of kind of the false notions that I can control everything that somewhat of the world kind of tells us like because we see it play out in people's lives, they've got it all together, or they seem to.
Speaker 1:It is, and that's going to be a whole different episode. Talking about the anxiety as it relates to control, that's a big crux of a lot of my therapeutic work and kind of, but even kind of beyond where we are today. But going back to the sermon on the mount quote, I'm pretty sure that is the example to the, the, the, the matter and the idea of distraction. Don't be distracted, yeah, and in related to the, where do you place value? Yeah, and because the world in its nature distracts us and there's this constant kind of calling back into correct focus of what should matter. Because there's an amazing freedom that happens when we feel our life is aligned in correct priority. Yeah, and sometimes that means there's.
Speaker 1:We get to places where we realize that, like we don't give a flip about things that we end. We oftentimes there are many of us kind of walk through different places in life where we realize something that felt so all consuming to us. Sometimes, all of a sudden it gets reframed and we see it then as petty and unimportant. How much more free we feel when that doesn't matter. And so we want this for those who listen. We hope this has been encouragement to think about and we'll have plenty of more church psychology is going to have a lot of conversation about anxiety, and I talk a lot about anxiety in our work. This will be the first of many but many times.
Speaker 1:Yes, See the notes. The descriptions, show notes and or YouTube description for this will have links to math article on under pressure and also just the blog post for this. Again, my apologies for any New Testament or Greek scholars for our possible butchering of things.
Speaker 2:And David, and oh my no, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that is, that is the math, the. We know we are our humble sometimes not so humble well therapist, and so we will. We will speak as expertise in expertise on on certain things. Greek language is not part of it, but I hope just even just kind of this reframing of things that may get missed and how we can read scripture could be encouragement to you and Matt. As always grateful this conversation.
Speaker 2:Such a good one speaks directly to my heart and needs that I have to. So anything for sign off, just that. Don't do nothing with your anxiety, don't get distracted. Yeah.
Speaker 1:As Bob said, don't worry, don't be happy. I would say I would share that like there's. There's no command in this to be happy. Happiness is a is a fickle, fleeting thing. Any emotion is. But we can live in deep peace. Even in the midst of distress, even in the midst of, in certain ways, anxiety, that emotional state of it, we can still have peace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the great panacea of the Christian faith, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, matt, I look forward to the next time we have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, grateful for this time and we'll see you all soon. Bye, thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of Church Psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.