Fellowship Around the Table

Curse God and Die: The Most Misunderstood Person in the Bible (Mrs. Job) w/ Scott L. Johnson (Part 8 of 8)

• Heath Casey • Episode 14

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Ever wondered what Mrs. Job's chilling advice to her husband - "curse God and die" - truly signifies? Scott L. Johnson joins us on the Fellowship Around the Table podcast, as they dissect this defining moment in the Book of Job, delivering a fresh perspective on faith, integrity, and human relationships in the face of unimaginable suffering.

The heart of the conversation lies in the profound understanding Mrs. Job has of her husband's character, evident in her refusal to accuse Job of wrongdoing, unlike his friends. We'll also cast a spotlight on Job’s unflinching faith in God, a cornerstone of his integrity which is vividly highlighted in God's conversations with Satan. Moreover, we take a closer look at Mrs. Job's faith, how her lament reveals the depth of their bond, and the powerful role of human connection amid adversity. So, prepare yourself for a captivating exploration of the dynamics of faith, integrity, and human relationships, reframed through the lens of Job's story.

Heath Casey:

You are listening to Fellowship Around the Table. Welcome everybody. It's the weekly chat. I'm your host this week, keith Casey, and I have, for one final episode, with me Scott Johnson. Hey, hey, scott, we are continuing our discussion on Mrs Job. Last week we walked through all of these observations, or the ton of bricks that you've seen over the years, and now we're going to tie it all back together with the infamous curse guide and die.

Scott L. Johnson:

That's right. This really is fascinating and I will admit that this took me a long time to assemble in a way that I could so clearly define it from the book. It was a hunch that I had for a little while, but I hadn't actually put the pieces together. So remember I said that what's not said in this book is really, really important. So let's talk about both sentences that Mrs Job said. She says to her husband do you still maintain your integrity? And then she says curse God and die. Now, if you remember Heath, when we talked about the whole outline of the book, most of the book is this dialogue between Job and his friends, and the friends say obviously you've done something terrible. And he says no, I haven't.

Scott L. Johnson:

And they say of course you must have. And he says, no, really I haven't. And that happens seven times. So basically they're telling him it's obvious, job, that you've done something terrible. You just need to confess what it is and get right with God. Here's the interesting thing. What is it that his wife does not say to him? She does not say to him what have you done? Now she does say do you maintain your integrity? And in the Western world we consider integrity to be character, who you are, when nobody's looking except you and God, yeah, and even performance.

Heath Casey:

That would imply in our language you know what you Did? You screw up.

Scott L. Johnson:

That's right, and honesty, yeah, yeah and stuff like that, yeah. So for years, when I read the book, I read her statement to say do you maintain your righteousness?

Heath Casey:

Do you?

Scott L. Johnson:

maintain that you're in the right, but I've learned that that's not what that statement means, so we're going to break that down a little bit, Okay? So she did not say to her husband what have you done? I want you to let's climb into her head for a minute. She's lost all of her financial security, which we know is important to a woman. It was 10 times as important at that time, when they couldn't just go out and get a job right, right For sure, the husband was the provision for a woman at that time.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yeah, so she's lost all of her financial security. She's lost 10 children that she physically bore Okay. So she's suffered all that and she's effectively lost her husband because she's not functioning as a husband. He can't earn any money, he has no business left. He can't, he's a train wreck.

Heath Casey:

His breath is awful. We know that. We know that no answer Repulsive, really.

Scott L. Johnson:

Some translations say so. She's lost everything. So this is a woman who has literally lost everything she could possibly lose. Wouldn't she have the same question as Job? Why, yeah, right, why. Why is that? Why are we in this predicament? So if there was a 1% chance that she thought Job might have done something even though she knew he's a great guy and all this time you know she knows he's a fantastic man but if there was a 1% chance he might have done something, what she should have said was what have you done or did you do something? Even if she just said that did you do something? Yeah, but she doesn't say that the friends say confess what you've done seven times.

Heath Casey:

Yeah.

Scott L. Johnson:

Then they give up on the eighth speech. She never says to him what have you done, and she never says to him even did you do something? Now, why didn't she say that to him?

Heath Casey:

And it makes sense to me that nobody in the world would have known him better.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yes, that's exactly right and that's the whole point of this point. Number four she doesn't say to him what have you done? And that's because she knows him so well she knows he hasn't done something. Now again, we're not talking about him being sinless. No, yeah, but with the theology they had of those who do what is right, or blessed, and those who sin are cursed. He is so cursed that the economics of that are he would have had to do something really really bad, yeah, right, something that would be obvious that he really couldn't. He really couldn't hide. She knows him so well she doesn't even ask if he might have done something. She knows her husband so well that she doesn't accuse him or ask. And she's lost everything. Yeah, she's lost her entire life.

Scott L. Johnson:

So, now this gets a little more difficult to break down.

Heath Casey:

Okay.

Scott L. Johnson:

So I hope you and the people listening will really bear with me here. So she says two sentences do you still maintain your integrity? And we think of integrity as meaning maybe, righteousness, character, you know, being upright and blameless the same kind of things that Job was. However, in this book, that's not what it means. Okay, and and I didn't really completely recognize this definitely not the first time I taught the class, it was some time before I really was able to put these pieces together.

Scott L. Johnson:

But he that word integrity is the same word that God uses when he's speaking to Satan in the same chapter, in chapter 2. Really so God says to Satan when he comes back for the second conversation, he says if you noticed my servant Job, he's blameless, upright, he fears God, shuns evil and he maintains his integrity, even though you incited me to ruin him without cause. Now we talked about some of the other parts of that statement, but let's focus here on he maintains his integrity. First of all. It doesn't make any sense that God would say he maintains his righteousness, right, right, because the minute we start maintaining our righteousness now we've got a little pride. Now Job does do that in the book, but it's hard for me to picture God extolling the virtues of someone who's maintaining their righteousness. Yeah, I don't see God to the surface.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yeah, but when he says this, let's go back to chapter 1. In chapter 1, if you remember, you remember what Satan's response was to God when exactly? Okay. So Satan says God says if you notice my servant Job, he's this great guy. And Satan says he says of course he's a great guy, of course he worships you. Look at all, look how you blessed him. Everything he does, flourishes, his business goes great.

Scott L. Johnson:

He, like everything he touches, turns to go rough, rough, rough paraphrase. He says but if you took away his stuff, he'll curse you to your face. Now that word curse can mean abandon, renounce, disavow. He'll turn the other direction. Basically, god, he will abandon you, he won't worship you, he won't adore you anymore if you take away his stuff. God says very well, very well, you can take away his stuff, but you can't touch him. Satan does all that to him. He comes back to God in chapter 2 and they have the same conversation. God says if you consider my servant Job, he's my number one guy to everything he adds then, and he maintains his integrity, even though you incited me to ruin him without cause. And Satan again says and he says of course, of course he still worships you, which we talked about the Duplicity of that right the, the lack of integrity Satan has with itself right.

Scott L. Johnson:

But he says of course he still worships you, because all you let me do was take away his stuff. You wouldn't let me mess with his body. If you let me mess with his body, that'll be the end of that and he'll turn for you. And God says okay, you can touch his body, but you can't take his life. But now think about this. Satan's Goal and Satan's challenge in chapter 1 is he will renounce you, he'll curse you, he'll turn from you. When he goes back to God, god says he maintains his integrity. Satan says yeah, yeah, yeah, but let me, let me do round two, and then he'll turn from you, then he'll curse you.

Scott L. Johnson:

Mmm so integrity doesn't mean honesty here. God and Satan define it for us. It means that Job will not turn from God.

Heath Casey:

Yeah, you with me there? Yeah, I'm following this.

Scott L. Johnson:

I always feel a struggle just trying to explain this, but they in, in these conversations between chapter 1 and chapter 2, they define the word integrity as Not turning from God, because Satan says, yeah, he'll turn, he'll turn from you if you let me take his stuff. God says, okay, you can take his stuff. Satan comes back and God says, look, he maintains his integrity. Ie, he didn't turn from me. He says, yeah, yeah, I know, but let me touch his body Right? So integrity there means for him to maintain his belief in God. That's integrity, and you know. You know how many foreign languages I know.

Scott L. Johnson:

Zero Hebrew zero, greek zero. Everything else except.

Heath Casey:

English.

Scott L. Johnson:

But I am fluent in Bible Gateway. Okay, bible Gateway, you can pull up five translations on the screen side by side at one time, right, and I do this a lot, and there are. I mean, of course, I look at all the majorly used translations. My personal go-to is kind of the NIV, but NASB, the ESV me there's lots of them. Yeah, but I also will refer to the NLT. There's the NIRV, which is a little lower grade level version of the NIV.

Heath Casey:

Your acronym game strong.

Scott L. Johnson:

Cuz I gotta look at them, pdq to get all this done. Okay so, but so I start looking at some of the lesser known translations. But these are translations, are not paraphrases, and I want you to think about this.

Scott L. Johnson:

Okay, here are some of them. Okay, the NOG version, which is names of God. Okay version Translates this are you still holding on to your principles? The ERV, the English Revised version, translates it Are you still holding on to your faith? The new living version, the NLV, translates it Do you still hold on to your faith? God's word GW translation Are you still holding on to your principles? And IRV, which is the lower grade level reading level of the new international version Are you still continuing to be faithful to the Lord? The GNT is the good news translation. This is one that I really like. I don't. It's not my reading Bible, but I love looking these verses up in it. When I was a kid, my parents had a paperback that was called Good News for Modern man. This is the current version of that old sort of plain English.

Scott L. Johnson:

Bible. So it's GNT. She says there, you're still as faithful as ever, aren't you? And then the amplified version says do you still cling to your integrity? So that's similar. But then the amplified part in the bracket says and your faith and trust in God, without blaming him. So all of these translations get the essence of what she's really saying to him. She's not asking him if he maintains his righteousness. She's asking him how can you still believe in God after everything we've lost? So here's how these points work.

Scott L. Johnson:

I think I need to explain one other thing that's really important about this what was Mrs Job's theology about suffering? So we know what the friend's theology was If you do what is right, you'll be blessed. If you sin, you'll be cursed. We know what Job's theology was, which was a ton of bricks, because he says to the friends over and over I know what you're saying is true. In fact there's a passage, I think in chapter 27, where he basically gives for 16 or 17 verses. He lists the whole theology and then in 31.3, he says you know something about how catastrophe is in for the wicked. So Job has the same theology. His wife has the same theology. His wife also has to believe. We don't know that from the book, but there's no other logical conclusion. They would have all had the same theology. So his wife believes that if you do what is right, you'll be blessed, and if you sin you'll be cursed. When he is as cursed as anyone any of them have ever known, his wife should have gone to him and said what have you done?

Heath Casey:

Yeah.

Scott L. Johnson:

Because she has the same theology. Instead, she says to him how can you still believe in God Now, heath? Here's the interesting thing.

Scott L. Johnson:

One of the most beautiful things in the book is that Job doesn't turn from God. A couple of sessions ago, I think, we talked about how what he should have done and I use the word should meaning what would have been the logical thing for him to do the logical thing for him to do would have been to turn, because his theology doesn't work anymore. Therefore, god can't be who he thought he was. If he's now super cursed and he hasn't really done anything big wrong, god's not who he thought he was, or he's not there at all. He should have turned from God, but he simply won't do that, and that is really one of the most beautiful things in the book.

Scott L. Johnson:

He simply won't turn from God, even though he has a crisis of belief and he can't possibly explain what's happened to him. His wife is not so strong in her faith, and so what's happening here Heath is. I am confident that his wife did turn from God, but this is the fascinating thing, and this gives me goosebumps and a little chill as I'm sitting here right now. She looked at her husband and she looked at God not literally, but she's got God on the one side and her husband on the other side. If God's there, these things shouldn't have happened to her husband.

Scott L. Johnson:

If these things happen to her husband. She doesn't even ask him what he's done. She knows him. She knows what a great guy she knows he hasn't done anything.

Scott L. Johnson:

She never accuses him or asks him what he's done. Instead, she abandons God. In favor of who? In favor of her husband. She basically chooses Job over God and she's looking at the circumstances and she's looking at these two people and she's processing it through their mutually agreed theology. And, unlike Job, who simply won't turn from God, even though he can't explain it, she's like I can't have both. I can't have both and Job, I'm choosing you.

Scott L. Johnson:

And the way it comes out of her mouth is how can you still maintain your faith in God? It's translated again in many of our Bibles do you still maintain your integrity? But what she's really saying is do you still maintain your faith in God? She's incredulous that he hasn't turned from God. She doesn't know about the cosmic conversation, but she has turned from God and she is sticking with her husband because she knows he hasn't done something and what's happened to him is not fair in the theological narrowness that they're in. And she picks him. So think about this. Job has been ostracized by everybody, but this one person, who knows him better than everybody else, has stuck with him. I never feel like I'm doing that justice.

Heath Casey:

Does that make sense. I'm processing all of it. It does, and it's almost like she's saying everything that we thought we knew or believed about God can't be right. That's exactly what he's saying when I am processing what has happened, everything that we thought about him. This can't. This isn't right. That's exactly what she's saying. And how can you still?

Scott L. Johnson:

believe this.

Heath Casey:

That's exactly what she's saying, oh wow.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yeah. And so, rather than the bony finger and the snarling voice saying, curse God and I think she says this out of her anguish, yeah, I mean she is deeply anguished at having now lost her financial security. She's lost her 10 children that she bore, and she's looking at her husband a man that I believe she dearly loves and is dearly devoted to, and he is suffering unlike any person ever. And she says out of her anguish do you still worship God? Yeah, like it's. In other words, how can you do that Job? How can you still be there, curse God and die?

Heath Casey:

Yeah, it's. I mean, she'd lost her faith in the moment.

Scott L. Johnson:

I am confident that she had. I'm also confident that she had it back by the end.

Heath Casey:

Yeah, although I can't know that, but it's such a common experience for humans to going through a tragedy or suffering, to have moments where your faith feels distant or lost.

Scott L. Johnson:

No doubt.

Heath Casey:

And to say things that you may not always believe. You said it in a moment of angst and suffering and pain. That's exactly right.

Scott L. Johnson:

Wow Okay, that's exactly right. So let me just summarize real quickly then, these 12 points.

Scott L. Johnson:

Number one she was Mrs Job. So Job, God's best guy on the earth, married her. Number two she was Mrs Job, and she, a woman, has to know fundamentally the character of her husband. She had to know she had a really good guy. Number three they had the 10 kids. And that is that's a lot, that's a lot of intimacy on every level. And so we know that Job, God's number one man, and his wife, Mrs Job, we know they were close.

Heath Casey:

And the thing about those three points that come together for me, knowing that he was blameless and upright, that to me ties together the strength of the marriage.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yes.

Heath Casey:

And knowing what God says about marriage, what he thinks about marriage and his design for it. That's so good. That's so good. Now you're spot on.

Scott L. Johnson:

And number four is what she does not say to her husband. She never says to her husband what have you done? You've brought this calamity on us. She doesn't repeat the theology of the forensic Correct, but she has the same theology. But instead of blaming Job, she knows he hasn't done something, so she doesn't. So number point number four, which is conspicuous by what she does not say Again, this principle, I just think, is so important to understanding this book. She does not say to him what have you done? Like how on earth have you caused this? Number five, she says to him how can you maintain your faith? You know when all this has happened? So, number five, she does turn from God and she aligns herself with her wonderful, good man of a husband.

Heath Casey:

I see it now. It's almost like she says clearly everything we thought about God can't be right. Yes, that's it.

Scott L. Johnson:

That's it. Like he's either not there or he's not who we thought he was. What you just said, that's it. That's it. And then number six is what Job says to her You're speaking as one of the foolish women. He's telling us thousands or layers. She's not foolish. This statement is not characteristic of her. It's not like her. Number seven he says his breath is bad and it's offensive to his wife. Number eight he offers her as a bond. He says if I have lusted after or waited, hoping to see another woman or maybe meet up with her, may my wife grind into their man's grain and may he have sex with her. If she was worthless to him in that moment, that would not be something he would offer up to secure his reputation and his word. Because you offer something of great worth. Number nine they had 10 more children. At the end they were still close.

Scott L. Johnson:

Number 10, she wasn't taken, and this is something, heath, I love about God. Now, again, I can't conclusive ly prove what I'm saying, but what I am saying is all these data points line up that she was a good woman who stood by her man. But something I love about God is the way I look at this, and I've soaked in this stuff for a long time. The way I look at this, god knew Job needed this one person who would not turn from him. You see what I'm saying. So God, I believe, protected her from being taken. She was still afflicted emotionally and mentally by everything that happened, but I think God knew that Jobne did this one person who knew him so well that she would stick by him through all of this, and I believe that's why she was not taken. She's not brought up in their conversation, but I believe there was that component of the boundary.

Heath Casey:

I mean when you're saying that I'm 1 Corinthians 10, 13, immediately came to mind.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yes.

Heath Casey:

I mean, I have it up here no temptation is overtaking you, but it's such as common to man, and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you're able, but, with the temptation, will provide the way of escape so that you'll be able to enter it.

Scott L. Johnson:

That's exactly right, and I think this woman is provided for this man. When he has lost everything else, he's lost everything else. And then number 11, job is not hesitant to tell his friends what terrible friends they are, but he says nothing negative about his wife, and in fact he really doesn't say anything negative to his wife when we understand the fullness of his statement. And then number 12, god doesn't comment on her. He dresses Job down and he dresses Eliphaz down in a different way and even more strongly, I would say, but he doesn't comment on Job's wife. So I also. I just want to point out that Augustine called Mrs Job the diabolic adjutrix, which I think is.

Scott L. Johnson:

Latin for the devil's assistant Say that again the diabolic adjutrix Adjutrix, I think that's Latin, and that meant the devil's assistant or the devil's advocate. And then Calvin called her organum satani, which is the instrument or tool of Satan. By the way, that's all the Latin I know too, but that's the instrument or tool of Satan. So you know what Heath? If Scott Johnson's going to go down, I'm going to go down big, because I think Calvin and Augustine are both wrong about this woman, and I'm okay with that.

Heath Casey:

I love it. Oh, Scott, I just enjoyed this so much. Me too. So thankful We've talked about doing this for a while. I know so many people have gotten to hear little parts of your teaching on this and to be able to give them access to this whole bigger picture and conversation. I'm really excited. Is there anything that you want people to come away with on these podcast episodes?

Scott L. Johnson:

I sure will. I'll give you one more thing to think about. So when I teach the class at some point in the first few weeks, I show a couple of pictures of old buildings. So let's just take the Colosseum as an example. Now, I'm not good at history, remember? So tell me where the Colosseum is, because I'm going to get this wrong otherwise.

Heath Casey:

That's in Rome, okay.

Scott L. Johnson:

So I might have accidentally gotten that one right, but that would have been purely accidental. So let's suppose for a moment that you went to Rome and you leave your hotel room one day and you walk all around and you see the Colosseum and you see some signs and you read them about it, but you really feel like I'd really like to know more, I'd really like to go to a deeper level. So you get back to the room or you get back to the hotel and you ask the person at the front desk is there a tour that I can sign?

Heath Casey:

up on.

Scott L. Johnson:

They say, sure, you pay $50, I'll collect it now and then be in the lobby at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. So you show up in the lobby, there's maybe 20 other tourists assembled and this guy comes up and says are you here for the tour? And you say yes. He says please follow me. And he leads you into a meeting room in the hotel.

Scott L. Johnson:

So in the meeting room, he shows you all these really great photos, professionally done photos. He explains, he's very knowledgeable, he tells you about all these different buildings and what happened there, and maybe 11 o'clock comes by and he says if there aren't any more questions, thank you for coming, we're all done. How would you feel about your tour at that point?

Heath Casey:

Like I'm getting poked here.

Scott L. Johnson:

Yeah, I mean you're getting ripped off right, because you paid and you thought you were going to walk around and he was going to explain to you and you're going to put your hands on this ancient stone and walk through and see what the people did.

Scott L. Johnson:

Instead, he just took you to the meeting room and showed you the thing. So here's the point when I teach this class, I'm the tour guide. I don't want anyone to take these podcasts or my teaching. Or if I ever write a book on this and finish it and it actually makes it into print, I don't want them to take that. That book will be a tour guide. It'll be like signposts in the museum telling you about different things. The text of the book of Job is the original article. That is what I'm trying to highlight and sort of help bring to life and give some structure to so people can get their minds wrapped around it. But I don't ever want them to take my teaching as a substitute for reading the book.

Scott L. Johnson:

I think if they're able to understand the things we've talked about and the structure of the book, it will help them much better read and intake and process what's happening in the book. But I don't want to let anyone off the hook. Please read the book. Read the book of Job. Read the whole Bible, but as our subject is the book of Job, read the book of Job because you need to see the artful nature of everything that these guys say in this book and if you understand it from the structure, I think it'll help you get your mind wrapped around it.

Heath Casey:

You heard it. Listeners, this is your call. That's right. Go read the book of Job as you've been prepared. That's right. You're going to see it and enjoy it in a whole new way. I think back to originally. You talked about there's kind of three camps within Christianity. When you talk about Job, they don't know much about it or they're kind of depressed by it, or they think it's fantastic, and I think anybody that's walked through this with you is going to go read it and be in the third camp. I hope so. I sure am Me too. Thanks again, scott. I've enjoyed this. I've loved it. I'm already thinking about other books that we can converse through and have as much fun.

Scott L. Johnson:

That'd be fantastic. Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome, all right, thanks.

Heath Casey:

Thank you for joining Fellowship Around the Table. If you would like to learn more, go to FBCDtalsaorg. Welcome to another week of the weekly chat. I'm going to do that again. I didn't like the weekly week, welcome, welcome, welcome, it's another week here at the weekly chat. I did it again. There's more for the outtake reel.

Scott L. Johnson:

Okay.

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