Not Ashamed of the Gospel w/ Ray Neel

Ever wondered how a life filled with hardships can turn into a story of incredible triumph? Join us as we sit down with Ray Neel. Ray shares candidly about facing the adversities of a broken family. Ray opens up about his personal experiences with marriage and faith, revealing the profound transformations that took place over decades.

A simple church picnic suggestion led him and his wife Jerre to FBC which became their spiritual anchor for over three decades. Learn how their commitment to this newfound faith brought fundamental changes to their lives, culminating in a foundational faith class that marked the beginning of Ray's deeper spiritual journey.

Our conversation takes a thoughtful turn as we explore Ray's transition from the oil and gas industry to farming, and the unique relationship between agriculture and faith. Ray delves into how his journey to faith at age 46 inspired him to create a Christian foundational course, impacting many lives.

This episode is a testament to the transformative power of faith, mentorship, and community, and is sure to resonate deeply with anyone seeking inspiration and spiritual growth.

Message on Heaven

Transcript

Life Journey of Ray Neal

Speaker 1 0:00

You are listening to Fellowship Around the Table. Welcome back to Fellowship Around the Table, where we endeavor to have great conversations about life, faith and the Bible. I am your host this week, keith Casey, and around the table this week we have Ray Neal. Welcome, ray.

Speaker 2 0:26

Well, good morning. Glad to be here.

Speaker 1 0:29

I'm excited you're here. I've been looking forward to this. Okay Now, most of the people around here probably know your better half better than you.

Speaker 2 0:39

Jerry, what do you think? Yeah, because I don't make as many waves now as I used to.

Speaker 1 0:45

Well, that's why you're on here.

Speaker 2 0:46

Yeah, those people have already left the church.

Speaker 1 0:50

You're going to make some waves on this podcast. Everybody's going to know you. This is going to go viral, oh okay. I've had so many wonderful conversations with you over the year. I love that. You know the history of this church and we have connected greatly. On the topic of heaven we both are very interested in and I love your testimony and your way about sharing the faith and I just wanted you to come on here today and share that with me. So tell me about you. Where did you grow up? I?

Speaker 2 1:20

was born in Wichita, kansas, is that right? But my mom and dad divorced when I was two, okay, and my mother moved to Oklahoma and basically that was the last interaction that I had with my dad. I didn't know him, never had any contact with him throughout life. I would have had a 50-50 chance of picking him out of a two-man lineup, is that?

Speaker 1 1:47

right, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:49

So we came to Oklahoma. What part did you move to? We started off in Cushing. No way, so I went you spent four years in Cushing, you did oh yeah, I went through first grade in Cushing. You know, got tonsils out and everything like that, all those elementary school things.

Speaker 1 2:07

Yes, you get all the ice cream you want. Yeah, that's right. And 7-Up?

Speaker 2 2:11

Oh, and 7-Up, that's right. So and my mom which I did not know this as I was young like that, but my mom was bipolar or schizophrenic or whatever category you want to put it in so occasionally, I would live with grandparents or an aunt and uncle, while she would be maybe institutionalized or trying to get her oars back in the water. Sure, anyway, moved to Tulsa in second grade, okay, and pretty much been here since then, okay.

Speaker 1 2:57

That's 15 years now 15 years. Where did you go to high school? In Tulsa, I went to Will Rogers.

Speaker 2 3:03

Will Rogers Right, yes, and this would be our 60th year, wow, and I think we're going to have some kind of a lunch to celebrate that. But I mean, we did have a big 50-year reunion.

Speaker 1 3:18

Okay.

Speaker 2 3:19

And we had like 700 and I think 710 in our graduating class Okay. Those were days of big classes.

Speaker 1 3:28

Yes.

Speaker 2 3:29

Yeah. So anyway, I did not grow up in a what I would say a traditional Christian home. What helped for me, I guess you would say, is I was honest, I was ethical and all that, but I had no spiritual component, and most of my upbringing through life was through what I would consider mentors or people who either gave me a break or taught me something, and I've got a list of those people. Is that okay? I think I've got about 12 people on that list that I call my fathers, wow, and so I'm basically a product of all those guys wow, it took the time to to pour something into you right or cut me a break, you know, give me an opportunity, something like that.

Speaker 2 4:28

And when I went back and looked at things, I put them on that list because they were significant in my path you know through life.

Speaker 1 4:36

What does a graduate from Will Rogers go on to next?

Speaker 2 4:39

Well, I attempted OSU, okay, and, and this the Ivy league ofU, okay, and this—.

Speaker 1 4:45

The Ivy League of Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 4:47

Yeah, and this is ironic, I was going down there to go into the School of Architecture, Okay, and I'd come out of high school with real good grades, great math background and all of that. But I get down there and just as I get down there my mom kind of wigs out again and was institutionalized by court order. So after two years down there, my math and science grades were great. Grades were great. Anything that I had to do like history or required reading and stuff, I flagged because I was having to come back to Tulsa, check on her house, go see her and all that. And so after two years I get this great letter from OSU Mr Neal, we regret to inform you you won't be coming back. Oh no.

Speaker 2 5:46

And I'm thinking the dear John Lennon. Oh, you know. I mean, it was like oh.

Speaker 1 5:52

Were you devastated? I was yeah, and so here I am.

Speaker 2 5:56

I'm out, I thought, well, what am I going to do? Because all my friends were going on, and you know, going through school and everything. Because all my friends were going on, and you know, going through school and everything, I needed to work because I didn't really have any support, sure, any financial support or anything. In fact, there was a short time there where I was basically like a street person, because at our house they turned off the water, turned off the electricity and everything, and I kept turning them back on. So they'd just come take the meters off, they'd lock the meter and you'd just unlock it so I would clean up up at the filling station and things like that.

Speaker 1 6:39

Are you serious?

Speaker 2 6:40

Yeah, and I found a place where I could eat one meal a day for 75 cents and I would pig out. Where was this? This was here in town.

Speaker 1 6:48

Just a restaurant, yeah.

Speaker 2 6:51

Anyway, I'd had a lot of drafting experience and everything, so I was able to get on with an oil company here in town as a draftsman and illustrator, as a draftsman and illustrator, and so it helped me become self-sufficient and enabled me to get my mom out of the institution and get her back on her feet. And my supervisor said Ray, why don't you go out to TU and sit back going back to school? Company will pay for it. Wow. So you go out to TU and say going back to school, come here, pay for it. Wow. So I go out there. Okay, this is going to be a. We'll get moving here in a minute. I know this is great.

Speaker 2 7:34

So I go out to TU and you know, pay these fees and get all situated to meet with a counselor. So I get in there, counselor goes. Well, let me see here. Mr Neal, I'm looking over your transcript and you want to go part-time and they said we'd have to put you on academic probation and I said, well, that's okay, but you would not be able to recover your grades and everything quick enough on a part-time basis. So we'll deny you. Wow, and I thought what? And I just thought, oh my gosh, so right. Then I just thought, oh, they wouldn't give me my money back.

Speaker 1 8:21

What money?

Speaker 2 8:21

back. So I carried that receipt for probably 10 or 12 years to remind me that I'm going to have to hustle harder because I'm not going to have a piece of paper on the wall that says you know you made it. And I was really. I was upset with TU. I was really. I couldn't have said enough bad about him. Now, later in life, though, I should have gone back and kissed the president for doing that, because it motivated me like you wouldn't believe so.

Speaker 1 8:59

did you carry that around like in your pocket? I did.

Speaker 2 9:09

Oh wow, and I spent about 14 years total with Amarada, they became Amarada Hess through a merger and a lot of people were out.

Speaker 2 9:13

I was out, went to work for Texaco All total between those two companies. I did that line of work for 14 years. But there was one of the big dogs at Texaco that I got to know and he was getting ready to leave the company and go out on his own. He wanted to know if I'd go with him. So I said, well, I would, but I don't want to do this kind of stuff. What kind of work were you doing at that time? It was like just map drafting and, you know, posting leases to maps and land type work, and then doing like executive slide presentations

Speaker 2 9:54

like board of director type stuff.

Speaker 1 9:56

Okay.

Speaker 2 9:57

So you know, I was making a decent living. But I told him. I said, well, I would go, but I want to do something different. I want to get over in the business side. He said okay. He said you find someone that can replace you in what we do and you can do that. So I did. He's one of my fathers that gave me a birth.

Speaker 2 10:22

So I went with him and the next thing you know that was the beginning of getting out and networking in the industry, raising money, selling prospects and projects, and it just went up from there. So I had a really, really good and fun career Came an executive in companies I was working with company car, you know all the good stuff back in the doodah days and I was the only only guy that didn't have a degree in the company and when I'd get assigned big project like ray need you to raise 10 million dollars yeah okay.

Speaker 2 11:09

Well, they said now, if whatever you need, whoever you need, get them, is that?

Speaker 2 11:16

make it happen, and so I thought you know that's um, here I am, mr nobody and Nobody, and they've given me access to whatever I needed. Wow, just start off with a shoestring, be fully clothed by the end of the year or you're out. And it was a great, great challenge and it was a lot of fun. And I didn't have a spiritual component yet, right, but god must have been eyeballing me for something, because these things were working and I just kept, you know, elevating wow.

Speaker 1 11:57

So you had a piece of paper. It just wasn't on the wall, it was in your pocket, that's right I finally got rid of it.

From Marriage to Faith

Speaker 2 12:02

Okay, and you know I hated these high-level business meetings at lunch because everybody would be talking about their school and everything. I attended OSU. I didn't say that was my alma mater.

Speaker 1 12:19

I attended OSU. All of those years were you taking care of your mother.

Speaker 2 12:23

Yes, and I did get married in 1968. And I didn't know anything about the definition of love or you know, marriage was just one of those things a lot of people did in my opinion. I didn't have any spiritual understanding, understanding, or I was not a believer.

Speaker 1 12:47

Didn't grow up around the framework.

Speaker 2 12:49

No, I was. You know, and the people in my family, all my relatives and everything when they get together at Christmas, deck of cards would come out and these were just to me. They were just people that got together and did that yeah. Are they playing pitch Exactly. I became a master at 10-point pitch. I love it.

Speaker 1 13:13

You know I got another pitch fan here at a fellowship. I grew up playing cards. I don't know if it's small rural Oklahoma. Michael Officer, he can play some 10-card pitch.

Speaker 2 13:23

I love 10-card. Yes, put the tray in there but uh, I just seriously. I grew up where my parents went and played pitch and those where you had the tables and you moved around, yeah, yeah, pitch tournaments I've done that too, because later in life jerry and I would go with my aunt to their senior citizen thing on Friday nights and they'd have about four tables of pitch going and you'd rotate around.

Speaker 1 13:48

you know it was a lot of fun. It is fun.

Speaker 2 13:50

But anyway. So I got married and had a son in that marriage.

Speaker 1 13:57

Okay.

Speaker 2 13:58

And that marriage lasted 14 years. Okay, and looking back on it now, I realize why it didn't survive. For one thing I was always on the track to put as much distance between. I had enough to get by in the present. Well, my ex-wife, she just was never. She wanted to party and and stuff like that, and she just, you know, we were just on a different wavelength yeah and so for 14 years she just said, well, all I want's money and out.

Speaker 2 14:57

So we divorced okay, and I got full custody of my son. Is that right? Because she said, tell my parents that we've got joint custody. But she said you're just better equipped to take care of him. So I said okay and it was amicable. I mean, you know it was not a hostile divorce, it just she wanted to go a different direction.

Speaker 1 15:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:22

So I then met.

Speaker 1 15:24

Jerry.

Speaker 2 15:25

Okay, and we different direction, yeah. And so I then met Jerry Okay, and we get married. Okay, and she is on the same wavelength that I was on, anyway, as life goes on for us, still no spiritual component. But after we'd been married I think it was about nine years I could see that I was on the same path downward spiral that I was before I mean you know I couldn't fix it and this had to be where god was jerking the chain and going right you know I'm gonna whack you good.

Speaker 2 16:09

And so after, after nine years, we, you know, and is this?

Speaker 1 16:13

like what late 80, early 90s this would have?

Speaker 2 16:16

been about 1992. Okay, and we went out to dinner one night with some dear friends that went here.

Speaker 1 16:26

Okay At that fellowship.

Speaker 2 16:28

Yeah, okay, in fact she was Bruce's assistant. She was what Jerry is today.

Speaker 1 16:33

Yeah, and for those listening that don't know, bruce was the former pastor.

Speaker 2 16:36

yeah, the founding pastor, that's right and so we go out to dinner and on the way she says, hey, we're gonna have a church picnic next weekend. Why don't you guys come go to church with us? You? Know how I feel about that church stuff yeah, uh, crutch for the week and all that you know. I said I don't know and of course they had also had some negative experiences in their marriage and they started going church.

Speaker 1 17:07

Okay, is that right?

Speaker 2 17:09

yes, and so I didn't understand how god worked through different people to make things happen, you know. But anyway, we get home that night and Jerry says I think I'm just going to put some stuff in a suitcase and leave tonight. And I'm what I said. Whoa, I said would you consider staying long enough to maybe go to their church next week and see if there's anything to this church stuff? Because I said, you know, there's something missing in our life and maybe that's it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 17:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 17:45

But would you consider going? She goes. Well, I don't think it'll do any good, but okay, I'll go. So we went and that was in May of 92. They were having back then. They had a spring picnic and a fall barbecue, okay, and the spring picnic was in May. So we went and I saw people I knew from the industry there, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 18:13

And the place didn't have any stained glass windows, no big steeple, nothing like that. No one was wearing robes. And I thought, you know, I could probably do this, you know. And I said back then, I said with that portico shirt, there's another thing If this place didn't make it, they could always turn it into a Luby's or something, Is that right? And so, anyway, we came that day, Okay.

Speaker 1 18:42

And we had a great time.

Speaker 2 18:45

Anyway, we go home and I said, you know, I had no idea it would be like that. And I said, would you consider going back next week, since it's not going to be a picnic, it'll just be regular and just see what it's like next week? And she goes well, okay. So we come back and I tell you what. We've been being back now for 32 years A client sinker. But here we're back and we've been here but we're not Christians, but we're seeing that we're still together and we're coming.

Speaker 2 19:26

And so they offered an impact class at that time called Foundations of the Faith and it was taught by two guys I knew in the oil and gas business. Who was that? Kip Kindred and John Dewey. Okay, well, we go to that class. It was, I mean, it was good but this would be cool. So we go through there and I don't know, it was somewhere along about week seven or something, you know it was nearing the end of the eight-week session and I thought, you know, it looks like Christianity's the real deal, we're still together. We only bought one Bible to go to that class and we didn't have our name put on it because we thought if it doesn't work, we'll just put it over, in the Lawson family we're out of here.

Speaker 2 20:24

That's great. So anyway, we decided we would do the deal. Yeah, and Kip, who was the main leader of the class, Kip Kindred. He said, well, we can do that right here in class. I said, nah, I think we'll go to the big dog and let him do that that would be, bruce, yeah, so we made an appointment.

Speaker 2 20:49

Okay, it was 545, october 8th 1992. Wow, october 8th 1992. Wow, and so we go in his office and you know, kind of have the pretty simple gospel presentation. He was using the four spiritual laws you know yeah. Anyway, that's when we accepted Christ.

Speaker 1 21:11

You, and Jerry, at the same time, at the same time.

Speaker 2 21:13

Wow, and we just decided that we're not going to just come in and sit on the back row on Sundays, we're going to plug into this because it's meant so much to us. Now, this was six months of still being together, getting acquainted here at church, you know, early on, when they started singing the songs and they were singing about a lamb or something, what, what's all this about? What's a lamb got to do with this? You know, I mean that's how. I knew nothing, nothing. So we do accept Christ and we get plugged into a mini church and a care group, which was the small group structure at the time.

Speaker 2 21:56

Yes, and so that became a good experience for us and we're by now you know we're starting to really grasp what's going on. So our mini church leader, bob David, after we'd been here a couple of years, he said I think you guys need to go through leadership. Yeah, it was like what I don't know about that.

Speaker 1 22:25

And so had you written your name in the Bible.

Speaker 2 22:28

yet yeah, we did.

Speaker 1 22:31

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, we each got one Now you have two and you have a date to write in there. That's right.

Speaker 2 22:40

And we've got a handwritten rebirth certificate for Bruce. I've got it framed in my office.

Speaker 1 22:46

Is that right? Yeah, now that's a paper to put on the wall.

Speaker 2 22:49

Yeah, it is the most significant accomplishment right there. Oh, that's great, and I've got it in a frame in my bookshelf in my office. Fantastic, it's cool. I should have brought it, yeah, but we're not being filmed, so they wouldn't be able to see it anyway. That's true. So we do with a lot of twisting. We did accept the invitation to go through the leadership program. And it was great for us. I mean, we really got in there and knuckled down and participated, and real well, in that class.

Speaker 1 23:25

Yeah, that was discipleship for leadership.

Speaker 2 23:28

It was like a 20 week course.

Speaker 1 23:29

I believe it was.

Speaker 2 23:31

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 23:32

And you rolled up your sleeves and got to work.

Speaker 2 23:34

Yeah, we did, and I tell you what we needed that.

Speaker 1 23:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 23:39

And when we finished, we were asked to become care group leaders. Okay, well, you know, reluctantly, we said okay because I was thinking the only parts in the Bible I know are what comes out on Sundays and all of that and what was in our leadership course.

Speaker 2 24:02

So I thought, okay, if we're going to be in leadership, I need to read the Bible all the way through. So I did Okay and I just thought I can't assume responsibility and ownership of a group if I haven't done that. So, anyway, that really got us off on a good start with having a care group, yeah, and we've had a great history in leadership with care group mini church and all that. It's really been good.

Speaker 1 24:39

It is interesting how, when you add whatever that looks like for each individual, but add some layers of responsibility in your faith, how it is a growth agent.

Speaker 2 24:51

I'm going to read you. He's pulling something out of his pocket. This is going gonna slay you. These are my personal statements personal statements.

Speaker 1 25:02

Okay, he's got like this little card that he pulled out of his wallet.

Speaker 2 25:05

Yeah, all right, let's okay you want to hear some of these? I do. You can always go back and cut this thing. Okay, gold, here's my personal statements. Okay, growing up, I experienced many of the difficulties and disadvantages required for survival, motivation and achievement. I've suffered many of those disadvantages and things that were required for survival, motivations and achievement. Now I got my PhD at age 19.

Speaker 1 25:44

Poor, hungry and determined 75 cents, all you can eat, that's right.

Speaker 2 25:50

Clean up at the filling station.

Speaker 1 25:52

That's so hard to imagine.

Speaker 2 25:55

Okay, here, I love this one. I've told this one to Eric and boy, he loved it. Okay, gratch, eric, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mention your name. Tell me what you think you need and I'll show you how to get along without it. Oh, and that comes about with. One of my mentors taught me something about life in the financial aspects of it. I learned to live with no debt, and I've always now. That doesn't mean I hadn't borrowed a little money here and there along the way in the last 70 years, but I never had more out than I could cover at a moment's notice.

Speaker 1 26:45

Wow.

Speaker 2 26:45

So I've lived pretty much debt free.

Speaker 1 26:48

Years before Dave Ramsey was famous.

Speaker 2 26:50

Oh yeah, and I've helped people here at church with that in dire times for them.

Speaker 1 26:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2 26:58

Now here we go. I always like tell me what you think you need, son, and I'll show you how to get along with that.

Speaker 1 27:06

I've got to have that on a T-shirt or a coffee mug.

Speaker 2 27:10

Yeah Okay, the difference between school and life. Between school and life In school you're taught a lesson and then given a test. In life, you're given the test and that teaches you a lesson.

Speaker 1 27:26

That's good, that's this Ray Neal book of Proverbs.

Speaker 2 27:31

One secret of success in life is to be ready for opportunity when it comes. So anyway, those are. How long?

Speaker 1 27:39

have you been carrying that around A long time? I was going to say is that a typewriter or did you print that?

Speaker 2 27:43

No, I printed it, no, no, I mean I just reduced it down. Yeah, yeah, okay. Whenever you find yourself doubting how far you can go, just remember how far you've come, remember everything you've faced, all the battles you've won and all the fears you have overcome. Now here's a good one. The Lord often allows a person to teach a particular subject because he or she desperately needs it, and that's one thing I noticed about the responsibility of being a leader in a small group. When you prepare, you're actually getting probably more benefit than the people you're presenting to. I agree, as you work through that and digest what you're going to present, yeah, Okay, Now just're going to present.

Speaker 2 28:38

Yeah, okay, now just one more quick one. Sure God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called.

Speaker 1 28:46

Amen.

Speaker 2 28:49

And in conclusion, all right, this was a quote by one of our astronauts. There are people who make things happen, there are people who make things happen, there are people who watch things happen and there are people who wonder what happened. Those are some of my personal statements.

Speaker 1 29:08

I love that. You know what I love. I didn't know the depths of your story until just this conversation of your story, until just you know this conversation. But one of the things that I think plagues our current culture and society is victimhood and glorifying it and miring in it, and that's just not a way out. It's it's not the gospel, for sure, but even just practically for people to go around and glorifying your victimhood, because some people really have some serious things have happened to their life that they didn't do. But that's part of this fallen world we live in and I think for a lot of Christians those things experiences drove them to Christ. But we just live in a culture today that just seems to want people to stay there and to glorify in it, and it's real evil.

Farming and Faith

Speaker 2 30:02

You know, I guess I'd have to say, as I was going through life, in those different chapters and downturns and one thing and another, at the time, you know, I was just focused on that struggle. But now, looking back on that, there are so many things I could sit down with people and help them with because I've been through them and come out on the other side of them. So while I might not be able to just reach in and grab a particular verse at the time, I could speak from experiences, so that kind of brings us to where we are right now.

Speaker 1 30:47

That's sort of a testimony, it is, and you've left, you know, kind of retired from the oil and gas industry and you've been farming the last, what, 19 years 19 years.

Speaker 2 30:58

Wow. Now you talk about something that is God-dependent. It's like evangelism we plant the seed and God takes over, and if we have a harvest, thank you Lord.

Speaker 1 31:11

That's right.

Speaker 2 31:12

If we don't, it's like well, god, we'll try again.

Speaker 1 31:16

There is something about farming that puts you right in touch with the Lord and his cycles and his creation. That's profound.

Speaker 2 31:24

It is yeah, and fortunately our partners in farming. They feel the same way.

Speaker 1 31:29

Wow, that's fantastic. Yeah, Now I know some of the stories of your time here. You went through a foundations course that led you to the gospel, but you've taught a few of those yourself.

Speaker 2 31:42

Well, I'll tell you what happened. Okay, a couple of years after we went through that, I was thinking, man, how significant that was for us. I was age 46 when I accepted Christ 46. You're probably not even that old, are you?

Speaker 1 31:58

I am not. In fact, you said you accepted Christ in 92. I was 1998 when, I accepted Christ, all right, so where was I? Well, you were going to teach a basics of the faith course, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 32:13

So I came to the church and I said you know that foundations of the faith which after we went through it, it just disappeared. That was it. I said somebody needs to put that back together, because there's people like me at that age was totally clueless about church, about the Bible, lambs yeah, lambs. And I said somebody needs to put that back together. And they said well, how about you? And I'm going huh. And then I got to thinking well, who best knows the kind of questions and stuff about this coming from nowhere than me, because that's where I was. So I took the challenge and here's how that came about this little book, right?

Speaker 1 33:12

here. It's got a little booklet here.

Speaker 2 33:14

And it's out of publication. A number of years ago got a hold of here and it's out of publication. But a number of years ago got a hold of the and it's produced in England. Okay, got a hold of this little book. It's called the.

Speaker 1 33:24

Christian Faith.

Speaker 2 33:25

Yeah, explaining the Christian Faith? Yeah. So I look through this and here's the basic things.

Speaker 1 33:33

Like outline yeah.

Speaker 2 33:34

The outline of each chapter in this book and it's real simple and I thought, oh, I could build a class on this. Week one is there a God? How do we know what is he like? Week two who is Jesus Christ? Why is he important? Week three who wrote the Bible? Can I trust it? Week four what is salvation? How can I know I am a Christian? Week five who is Holy Spirit? What does he do? Week six why did God start this thing called the church? I love it. Week seven what do I need to do to grow as a Christian? And week eight what is the purpose of my Christian life?

Speaker 1 34:29

Okay.

Speaker 2 34:30

And so I thought, wow, those are great headings to lead into expanding. Yes, so I worked on that and put that together and wound up being in a booklet form with a lot of verses and detail to back up all this stuff.

Speaker 1 34:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2 34:50

And illustrations, put that together and wound up teaching that for eight years, eight years, I didn't realize that yeah and Paul Hilderand joined in with me and Paul and I did that thing. And what was cool about that? Paul is a very, a very mature Christian Basically, I think, was born a Christian, almost. You know. He's got such a great background and grasp on a lot of this stuff and here I was just the opposite, you know.

Speaker 1 35:27

So as a pod team, between the two of us, you know, yeah, and so we tag teamed off of each other yeah, and so we teamed off of each other and it was a really great experience. Isn't it interesting, though, that those basics of the faith, or foundations, how often they end up being evangelism classes? Yeah, because you guys saw a lot of people come to faith through this. Well, he's got a list here.

Speaker 2 36:03

Actually, the years we did this class were 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, skipped and then 2003 and four and then the final one I think I did with jim bruns in 2014, a disciple of a previous year, year huh yeah, so this little book here. The value of that initially to me was that's the book I used to lead my son to christ is that right?

Speaker 1 36:25

yeah, I was one to circle back, because I I don't think I've heard you talk about your son. Okay, so what's his name? Rick okay uh-huh, is he here in Tulsa? Yeah, basically Okay.

Speaker 2 36:36

Yeah, fantastic, he did actually most recently did a stint with Paul oh, is that right? Yeah, in business, that's fantastic. And now he was recruited by John Zink. Okay, and so that's where he is now Okay, wow yeah. And then throughout the course of the class. Now, this is interesting. Okay, Jim Bruns was the first one.

Speaker 1 37:04

actually, once this class got put together, was the first one in week seven we were going through this and he's, you know, an adult. He's older, like you were. Oh yeah, yeah, just showing up.

Speaker 2 37:18

Yeah, what is this thing? And Jim and Lisa were in the class.

Speaker 1 37:23

Okay.

Speaker 2 37:24

And he just said I think I want to do this and Paul and I are, you know, we weren't thinking that anybody going to church here, you know, would be.

Speaker 1 37:40

He's like just fact of the matter.

Speaker 2 37:42

Yeah, I think I want to do this, so we just shut the class down right there and all went through that with him, through the prayer and everything, and I mean it was a really cool night, praise God. And here's the it was a really cool night, praise God. And here's the thing about it. Now, today, jim and Lisa are plugged into this body.

Speaker 1 38:06

Oh, fantastic.

Speaker 2 38:07

And you know, it's just really cool to think about some of these things that happened like that. Now here's another. Oh, this was in 2003.

Speaker 1 38:21

Okay.

Speaker 2 38:22

It was February 15th 2003. And it was the night of I think it was week four salvation.

Speaker 1 38:31

Okay.

Speaker 2 38:32

We had a lady in there named Marilyn Morris. All right, she was originally from like like Sperry, okay, but she spent her life in California working with a lot of the celebrities out there, and all of that living the wildlife. But she was starting to have some health issues and she just thought, you know, probably time to kick out of the surf and go back home.

Speaker 1 38:58

Kick out of the surf.

Impact of Belief on Eternal Destiny

Speaker 2 39:00

So she came back to the area, all right, and we had one of our care group leaders at the time, dean and Connie Athens either knew her somehow or had met her and got acquainted. Well, they brought her to the class, okay, so she goes through the class and we had, you know, other people attending the class at the end of the evening. Everybody's walking out and everything she says I think I'd like to like to do that. Can, can, is it? You know? Can we stay and do that? And so Jerry had been taking a class, so she comes in, and another gal in the class, tammy Harvey. Oh wow, tammy said is it too late? Can I stay too? Are you serious? I thought she was just going to be an observer. Yeah, so we get in there. And both of them wanted to accept Christ that night. Unbelievable, they did. And I'll tell you the thing that now just really rattles my chain is that they both passed away. They both passed away.

Speaker 2 40:14

Marilyn in February of 07 at age 63. Tammy in 2018, at age 52. They're both gone and I'm thinking what if? They had not had an opportunity to do that, what would? Their eternal destiny would have been totally different. Eternal destiny would have been totally different. Yeah, and it's like that's what you know should weigh on us is the end time for that individual. How is that going to impact them then? Yeah, and the same with two of my uncles, especially Don Chicken Boy. I'm glad my mom was his sister Because.

Speaker 2 41:03

I couldn't handle that Ray Chicken. So anyway, my uncle Don and I've got this on our website here at the church.

Speaker 1 41:13

You know, one time they asked for some stuff.

Speaker 2 41:16

Well anyway, uncle Don was kind of my John Wayne uncle. He was an Air Force officer. He got into jet flying on the ground floor right back at the time of Korea, when jets were just coming in to be, and so he was an extremely accomplished fighter pilot. Like a lot of other Air Force people, he'd had four wives.

Speaker 2 41:44

And at the time he was starting to really go downhill in life. He was divorced, but he no, wait a minute, no, he wasn't divorced, but he left his wife. But he didn't want to get divorced because he wanted her to have Air Force benefits. But he had a girlfriend in Kansas and one in California, oh gosh. So when my mom passed away, I got the nucleus what was left of the family.

Speaker 2 42:15

small group of elderly people and kind of got them together and sat down and talked about you know, their spiritual status and everything with a chance to offer them. You know the gospel. Yeah, well, my uncle said oh Ray. Ray said I don't know, I think I'm past all that. He said I don't think I'd qualify for that. Well, this is where I think we need to be alert on situations like this, and a lot of times family's the hardest to share with to share with.

Speaker 2 42:54

So when he became 80 years old he was really failing and he was in the hospital and I told Jerry. I said you know, I don't think Don's going to make it. I said I wonder if we ought to go out there and try one more time. And then I thought about it and I thought. You know, with a family member sometimes that's difficult to do. And so I called a church just like FBC, same doctrinal statement, everything in Chico, california, and told them about my uncle.

Speaker 1 43:32

Okay.

Speaker 2 43:33

And I said do you have someone in your congregation that can go by and see him? He said you know, we've got just the guy.

Speaker 1 43:45

No way.

Speaker 2 43:45

So he sent this guy over there. Well, my uncle recognized him because this guy had done two funerals of buddies of his, and within an hour my uncle accepted Christ.

Speaker 1 43:58

Wow.

Speaker 2 43:58

And I'm thinking you know it's our job to get the message out somehow.

Speaker 1 44:04

Yes.

Speaker 2 44:05

But God's the one that closes the deal, yeah.

Speaker 1 44:08

And.

Speaker 2 44:08

I thought what if we hadn't have done that? So it's just another little lesson to people that there's always maybe an alternative way if you're struggling with trying to reach somebody.

Speaker 1 44:22

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 44:24

Okay, Wow Now. And the last one that we did was Diana Taylor.

Speaker 1 44:31

Okay.

Speaker 2 44:32

In 2018, right here on a Sunday morning. Is that right yeah?

Speaker 1 44:34

In 2018, right here on a Sunday morning, is that?

Speaker 2 44:36

right, yeah, Paul and I met with her and her husband Eric thought that maybe you know they weren't there yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well as it turned out, diana wasn't, but Brian claimed that he was. So we focused on Diana and she was needing a kidney transplant and you know it took five. She accepted Christ on September 2nd of 2018. And it was five years before she got that transplant Wow. But you know, people prayed for her. We prayed for her. Doug and Jeannie got to know her and they prayed for her.

Speaker 2 45:16

Well, after five years she got that transplant. Wow. So anyway, there's that Now. I probably led you all over the road.

Speaker 1 45:27

No, this is so much fun.

Speaker 2 45:29

And then, of course, to me, and you know this subject well is the topic of heaven. I think if you don't weave that into a conversation when you're talking with somebody, this to me takes the intangible, a lot of this stuff, and makes it tangible like this is going to be the end point. Where are you going to be smoking or not smoking?

Speaker 1 46:01

huh yeah. Well, I do think satan has done a very effective job of confusing people about our ultimate destination, and even for a lot of Christians, what they kind of have rolling around in their head about heaven rarely matches up with the biblical account that God gave us, which is amazing, but it's been diminished and hidden in the general public for sure.

Speaker 2 46:29

Thank you, heath, for bringing it to the body, because it's never really talked about.

Speaker 1 46:37

I know it's not. The Bible talks about it a lot too.

Speaker 2 46:40

I know I mean I want to compliment you on your presentation of it because it was very powerful and it was really good. Thank you, and I passed it on to other people.

Speaker 1 46:55

You have, but you carry around these. Randy Alcorn wrote a great book doing a survey of the biblical account of heaven Really big book, but he has a small little pamphlet that condensed the key points down. Yeah, you've bought a bunch of these and you have them ready to go. That's right.

Speaker 2 47:12

This is an evangelism track for you really, you know it is I like it because it really gets right to that end point. And so you know, especially if I have a friend or a neighbor whose loved one has passed away and everything and they're really kind of upset about all of that, this book can bring some comfort and so, yeah, I like to use it.

Speaker 1 47:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2 47:39

Now, another thing that we talked about is my one-page, little one-page thing of Christianity. Yeah, and the way this got developed was my dear aunt, who I actually lived with off and on a couple of times in my life, my aunt and uncle. She passed away and I found out about a day before she passed away by quizzing her because she was going to go for a heart cath test. Yes, and so I said I got to know. I said where are you in the spiritual grand points of life, where are you? She said, well, I accepted Christ. And it was like back in the 40s. Okay, I thought, wow, that's a relief. Well, jerry took her to the heart hospital over in Wichita. She died on the table and later we found a diary of hers back in the 40s, on the day she accepted Christ.

Speaker 1 48:44

Is that right?

Speaker 2 48:45

So what a relief that was. Well, so we were going to have her service up in Chanute, kansas, and they didn't go to church. And I thought I can't turn my aunt's service over to somebody I don't even know. So I thought okay, I, most of us that go to FBC here and have been involved in the church and been involved in small groups and all that we should not be intimidated by the opportunity to do a service for a family member.

Speaker 2 49:26

Yeah, and so I thought okay, we're going to do it. We're going to have a big memory session let people you know reflect on how they remembered her and, you know, you generate a lot of laughs a lot of times and all that. And then, when we got down to the serious part, I said, okay, we know where she is, but the question is, where are you going to be at this time?

Speaker 1 49:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2 49:53

And so I'd prepared this sheet and I handed one out to everybody and I said we're just going to kind of walk through this sheet and, you know, take God down to the final discussion of heaven yeah, and so that's where this little sheet came from.

Speaker 2 50:21

That's where it came from, and at that service we had one person accept Christ. They came up to me after the service and said I never really understood it like that and said when you prayed that prayer, I prayed it twice. I said well, then it stuck, and so I made them a rebirth certificate and sent it to them.

Speaker 1 50:48

Just something is very powerful and we forget this as Christians and God's doing all this work in the background, that we don't see, we don't know, but giving people that moment and that opportunity to believe, like really just laying it out there.

Speaker 2 51:04

Right, you know. The thing about it is. You know, when you talk about evangelism, leading someone to Christ, this, and that it's really we're just the messenger.

Speaker 1 51:17

That's right.

Speaker 2 51:18

God's the one that's closing the deal. Holy Spirit and God are closing the deal. We're just hopefully bringing them to the table. Yeah, that's right yeah so it's not for our glory, no, it's for His Absolutely, but we get to participate in it.

Speaker 1 51:32

Yeah, that's right, yeah, so it's not for our glory, no, it's for his Absolutely. But we get to participate in it. Yeah, we do, yeah.

Speaker 2 51:38

It's a privilege, privilege.

Speaker 1 51:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:42

If we're not doing that it's too bad, but it's just one of those things that, biblically, we're basically instructed to do. That.

Speaker 1 51:53

All believers. All believers are ministers of reconciliation, of seeing people brought back into eternal relationship with Jesus Christ. This conversation would be so encouraging for people to remember that.

Speaker 2 52:08

And I'll tell you what I don't know. It's just one of those things that I feel strongly about. Yes.

Speaker 1 52:14

I know you do. The Lord has a track record of using you for that all these years.

Speaker 2 52:20

Yeah, and he had his eye on you for a long time If he can take somebody like me and use them well, hey, look out.

Speaker 1 52:28

Yeah, this has been so much fun I knew I would enjoy this and getting to hear even more of your stories well, I'll tell you, heath.

Speaker 2 52:40

When you ask if I would do this, I thought well, I don't know, I'll give it a try it's not so bad.

Speaker 1 52:50

You can help me because I've asked a lot of people and I think they're a little nervous about coming in here. But it's not so bad, is it no?

Speaker 2 52:56

It's a piece of cake, actually, once you get rolling.

Speaker 1 52:59

That's right.

Speaker 2 53:00

You're just having a conversation.

Speaker 1 53:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2 53:03

Good thing I wasn't on a 15 minute timer.

Speaker 1 53:08

No, it didn't cut you short. Well, I do appreciate it and enjoyed it, and it's refreshing even to me to just hear somebody's story and just, I don't know, in my own walk, in my own faith, it's a great dose of encouragement. Yeah, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 53:28

Well, and I'll tell you what. You're the man, anybody that can step up in front of the body and talk about heaven hey. You know, I was so glad you did that?

Speaker 1 53:41

Well, you know I did that because of you. You were poking me, saying we need to talk about this from the stage and I heard you.

Speaker 2 53:50

I did, I did.

Speaker 1 53:53

And I think I know why people don't like it was a little intimidating topic, especially to cover in one sunday morning.

Speaker 2 53:59

It's like how can I convince?

Speaker 1 54:00

it down enough to give people a taste 32 minutes, 32 minutes. That's right. You, you've shared it. Yeah, you shared it with a group up in Kansas.

Speaker 2 54:14

Yeah, yeah, I was included on that. Yes, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 54:18

Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, we need to do another one of these where we do a longer conversation on heaven. Okay, that'll be fun.

Speaker 2 54:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1 54:28

All right, anything else you want to add?

Speaker 2 54:31

No, I think I'll let you close this All right. Anything else you want to add? No, I think I'll let you close this All right.

Speaker 1 54:35

What a fun time around the table this week and I look forward to being with you all next week. See you next week.

Speaker 2 54:44

Thank you for joining Fellowship.

Speaker 1 54:45

Around the Table. If you would like to learn more, go to fbctulsaorg.

Speaker 2 54:53

And one night I'll tell you this I know FBCTulsaorg.