Fellowship Around the Table
Great conversations about life, faith, and the Bible from Fellowship Bible Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma (www.fbctulsa.org).
Fellowship Around the Table
Made for Work: History & Philosophy w/ Nathan Cozart & Seth Perry (Part 2 of 6)
Join Heath Casey, Nathan Cozart, and Seth Perry as they unravel the ages-old historical tapestry of work. From the Greeks who viewed work as a burden to the Bible's celebration of labor as an intrinsic part of divine design, this episode promises a fresh perspective on how our upbringing and cultural surroundings shape our work ethos. Find out how deeply ingrained societal norms and media portrayals influence the way we view our professional lives and what that means for our spiritual journey.
Take a step further into the transformative power of biblical teachings on work. Engage with the profound insights from Scriptures, particularly Colossians and Romans, as we shift from self-centeredness to serving others. The conversation opens up pathways to renew our mindset, aligning it with God's principles and finding fulfillment beyond worldly definitions of success. Discover how community engagement can enrich our understanding of divine purpose, offering a counter-narrative to secular philosophies that often dominate our thinking.
Beyond tasks and transactions, explore the essence of Christian vocation in redefining work with meaning and intention. Through the lens of the Good Samaritan and the greatest commandment, our episode challenges conventional job definitions by encouraging listeners to embody God's call in all roles. From parenting to community service, the dialogue underscores the importance of loving our neighbors through our daily endeavors.
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Speaker 2:Around the Table.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Fellowship Around the Table, where we endeavor to have great conversations about life, faith and the Bible. Heath Casey, here Around the Table for the second week, I have Nathan Cozart and Seth Perry and we are talking about work that we're made for, work. Work happened before the fall, we continue to work and we will work forever. It's intrinsic to our design. Last week we talked about the origin of work, right, guys?
Speaker 3:Indeed Really excited to be back to keep the discussion going.
Speaker 1:This week we're going to dive into the history and philosophy of work, and especially some of those kind of man-made philosophies that have impacted our paradigm and how we think about work, and just some of the unbiblical natures of some of those mindsets that creep in and influence us and often rob us of the joy that God had designed work for. Can we go back to your working definition? I think that's a really helpful definition.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Set the stage a little bit. We're defining work in the context of this podcast as the activities associated with who God made you, where he put you and how you love and serve your neighbor. So we talked about stations, what your context is, and then really all of this is living out our call to reflect God and love and serve our neighbor.
Speaker 1:So I'd like to start by posing this question to you guys and our listeners. I want them to be thinking about this as well, our listeners, I want them to be thinking about this as well. Where?
Speaker 2:do my beliefs, my thoughts, even my feelings about work come from? I think, primarily culture. Okay, to include family, pop culture, friends, friends and family.
Speaker 1:Movies yeah Like office space.
Speaker 2:Movies are part of culture.
Speaker 3:Office space is a big one.
Speaker 2:I remember seeing a lot of films I grew up at a moral. Space is a big one. I remember seeing a lot of films I grew up at a moral but not a Christian home.
Speaker 1:And I remember seeing a lot of films as.
Speaker 2:I was growing up about how corrupt business people were, and I still remember thinking I don't want to do business. I want to do something that's authentic.
Speaker 3:So right it's bad.
Speaker 2:Something like engineering or counseling and philosophy, something, something that's a little more concrete.
Speaker 3:What about you, nathan? Definitely, like you said, through cultural influence, and I would think mostly of like music and media and shows or movies that we see. Also, I think a lot of it probably just comes from watching the people around you work. So, whether that's your dad, for me at least my dad, my grandfather, my grandfather was in accounting at mobile, god bless him, yep. And so I saw, saw the Pegasus around our house all the time, okay, and so there was that picture, you know, kind of the corporation, long career with a pension, you know kind of however that goes. And then my dad was a entrepreneur in the remodeling industry, and so just kind of that dichotomy of corporation and entrepreneuring doing it yourself. So really those are probably the most influential in how I thought about work. What about you, heath?
Speaker 1:I agree with all of that. I think you're impacted heavily by your parents. As Scott Johnson says, when you become a parent, it's not parenting 101, it's 201, because you saw something modeled for 18 years.
Speaker 1:So you're heavily influenced by your parents. You're heavily influenced in the community and the culture you grow up in. I grew up in a time and place in a small town where it was heavily agricultural society and culture. It's definitely influenced me to this day. I definitely was influenced by movies and news and just all of the media and art and a lot of that. There's some great work ethics that I picked up on, but it definitely had a generally negative version of work and in some sense of how you described it last week of like get it done, get it out of the way so you can get done with it and escape it and be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, Heath, I know you love history and ideas and have studied how they flow through time and cultures. We're a product and our culture is a product of the generations that have come before us. When it comes to work, can you give us a flyover of how Western civilization has viewed work and how those ideas may be influencing us today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would love to. There's a great quote by Francis Schaeffer that I think encompasses this idea that we are impacted by the generations that come before us and how they thought about things. He says there is a flow to history and culture. This flow is rooted and has its wellspring in the thoughts of people. Let me go through what I think are five big movements in Western civilization that have impacted to this day how we think about work.
Speaker 1:Last week we gave a big overview of what God says and what the Bible says about work, but we've definitely been influenced by ideas that aren't from there. So the first, like a lot of things, we've been heavily influenced by the Greeks and I'll call this the Greek solution, and a big way they thought about work is that work is a curse and nothing else. The gods got to escape it and they created man to do all that menial, low stuff and get it out of their life. Work was associated with this endless cycle of activity forced upon us by this embodied existence. This is another idea that's heavily influenced a lot of people today is that being in this body, this physical domain, is a curse and at some point the soul will get released from the body and that's this idea of heaven, of getting away from the low things, the material things, the physical nature of things.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's low and poor and not the great life and very different from the biblical narrative where God made those things and gave us our physical embodiment and we see, for eternity we're a part of that, like that's not a low thing to God and we're not going to be separated from a body for eternity, that we get to indwell in a physical space for all of eternity. But the Greeks thought, oh, we'll get rid of that. And so in some sense we're no different than the animals. Work was for survival alone. It was something to be done to survive and that really the ideal man. Is that thinker or philosopher right, they got to escape the day-to-day chores if you will.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, I had really unknowingly adopted both of those thoughts of disembodiment and work being a curse. Yep, all right, so I was a. Greek solution guy.
Speaker 1:And then we get into what we call the medieval continuation. And so this basic Greek attitude continued. The contemplative life is still the highest pursuit. Productive work was there and it met the needs of the temporal life, but it wasn't given any religious value or significance. That you know. If you had to do that, you know. Obviously we need that stuff, some people have to do it. But those that escaped that made it to maybe the monastery or the desert and they just got to contemplate and think deeply, not necessarily all philosophically but even religiously, and got to separate themselves from all of that, so that you start to see this divide between the clergy and the lay, that they're really getting separated, and so the birth of this real distinction of the sacred versus the secular starts to develop and that's still very much alive today that feeling of like.
Speaker 3:Well, it would be great if I could work in the service of the Lord vocationally, but I guess here I am you know, here I am doing my other thing.
Speaker 1:I got to go be a second best plumber for 60 hours a week. I guess the best I can do is throw some money at the ministry part and maybe get to serve.
Speaker 3:If I was really serving God and loving him, then certainly I would be a missionary, a pastor or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they don't see those on the same plane there's not a higher and lower class of work.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, they don't see those on the same plane. There's not a higher and lower class of work. Yeah, okay, interesting.
Speaker 1:And then we'll get to the Renaissance reversal. Within this time period we're going to have the Reformation, this great movement within the church. So this previous attitude and thought towards work starts to reverse in general in society and along with some advancements in technology, and you're going to see a real reformation on this idea of the separation of the sacred and secular within the reformers movements. So the ideal man is going to move from a thinker to an artist more creative, and once again you start to see there's change. There's change in technology, there's change in opportunities, and so productive activity now likens us to the divine.
Speaker 1:And so yeah, and you're going to see much more expression of freedom and with rapid improvements in technology from then on, the next four or 500 years, you're going to see this idea floating even to an unbiblical point that we have control over nature, where we were given dominion. But now we think, I mean we can control the weather, we can control all of it. You don't see in that Genesis account, right, and the reformers who are known for the soul of scriptura and getting back to the word of God alone, faith alone, christ alone, grace alone and all of that message and in reforming a lot of the corruption that had crept into the church. The second biggest topic they wrote about was this idea of the secular sacred division and they elevated that All of those stations, no matter what you're doing, as being a part of the sacred. So Martin Luther and them would talk greatly about the plumbers and the bakers and all of them, that they are just as important as the clergy.
Speaker 1:Wow. And then two later movements that happened after that, two big time philosophers that have impacted the way we think about work and our culture, and that's going to be Marx and Freud. Marx, this idea of self-realization through work, so this atheistic philosophy that's starting to grow, starts to have a real impact, and so this idea that with our free productive activity, we're going to find true fulfillment in that, because we're not going to find fulfillment in God and in that paradigm.
Speaker 1:Without that, we have to find fulfillment somewhere. So we're going to find fulfillment in God and in that paradigm. Without that, we have to find fulfillment somewhere. So we're going to find it through our work. When we're not free to pursue that, we are working to survive like animals or slaves, and so there needs to be revolution to get out of that station, out of feudalism or whatever it is. That we can't be fulfilled until we're free and we can work and do whatever we want, which you see. You see the seeds of that.
Speaker 1:I mean you see that today. And then, lastly, this is kind of newer, but Freud's idea that work is a form of self-denial, so Marx being way more romantic and utopian about where humanity was going. Okay, Freud is more disillusioned, more, much more postmodern, and the seeds of that being you know. Work will never be more than a necessary evil. The ends of life, where we're going to find fulfillment, aren't in freedom and work. They're going to be located in consumption, not production and leisure and having fun and living it up.
Speaker 1:Yolo, you know right and leisure and having fun and living it up, yolo. You know right, you only live once. Get some money, collect some things so that you can have the greatest vacation ever, the best house, and you're going to find fulfillment in consumption, not in production. So, you can see, all of these things definitely influence our culture and have probably influenced you and how you think about it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, I can see pieces of each of them.
Speaker 1:Comment on that.
Speaker 3:It's interesting to see that movement through time and I appreciate kind of that summary and presented chronologically and you can understand how those ideas are maybe getting at a piece of the truth like a dim reflection, but they're not the full picture, or that they are an overplayed. You know, like if work is good, maybe it's the only good, and so then we are self-realized through our work and defined by it. You can see how that would play out to placing your identity and what your vocation is, or really only valuing that, and then certainly like thinking about the Freudian thoughts and if the ends of life are in consumption and not production, leisure and not work, and so then you can even think about some of the dystopian novels like Brave New World, that elevate, you know, like consumption and pleasure and that stuff.
Speaker 3:So yeah you can certainly see these thoughts moving both through time, but then also still at work today. Yeah, people may not be able to identify the root of these things that shape their thinking, but yeah, still very much.
Speaker 1:And so we're not alone. Every time and place has had ideas that were counter to the Lord's clear design that they had to deal with. We deal with remnants of all these and in our own time we're probably blind to some things that are influencing us that are apart from God word. But I want to go back to your definition again, because I think it does such a great job of pushing back on what we've just talked about. Read that for us again, Okay.
Speaker 3:So we're defining work as the activities associated with who God made you, where he puts you and how you love and serve your neighbor.
Speaker 1:Those five movements that we talked about, even with good intentions, they're all focused on the self. And what do I have to do to be fulfilled? And that's where the kingdom of God is so upside down, and we have to constantly remind ourselves that we're fulfilled when we're serving and caring about others. Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a radical shift from inward focus to outward focus. It is.
Speaker 1:I don't care what your line of work is today, whether you're getting paid for it or not. This is very hard and it has to be done in community and in your faith. But if you wake up in the morning thinking about how can I serve those around me in whatever station or role that I have, and you do have that opportunity that's where you're going to experience a lot of joy in your work.
Speaker 3:Wow, but it's a big challenge, big challenge, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:But we retreat back into that selfish mindset so fast.
Speaker 3:Well, so I'm sure for many of us, these ideas have influenced our own thinking, but how can we put a biblical lens back on? We talked through what we want that definition to be and you know, it's like I want to like pull myself up by the bootstraps and go do that today, but how can we really use the Bible to see work through God's eyes?
Speaker 1:I think Paul hits on this in Colossians two.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read verses eight through 10 to know that this isn't unique, that we are influenced by our culture.
Speaker 1:We are influenced by ideas that aren't grounded in God's word. He says see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ, for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in him you have been made complete. He is the head over all rule and authority. And so I do think often we are taken captive by these poor philosophies that don't lead to the definition that you had in God's revelation and how he designed us, and they pull us away from that, and we do end up mired down and bad attitudes and not living that abundant life that he came to give and give today Right. And so we do have to keep coming back to God's word and using that to check all of our mindsets and our attitudes, however we be influenced.
Speaker 3:I'm so thankful to have that like immovable external objective standard to look at as you think about those different schools of thought and how culture reflects those over time. And so you know, like that history you just gave from the Greeks to now, hundreds of years, yeah, exactly. And so the word of God has not changed over that period of time and so how fortunate we are to have that revelation of God to help us evaluate what culture is saying but it really takes some intentional evaluation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Paul says, hey, these things are trying to influence you and conform you and all of us are going to have those blinders. And so we do come to the word of God. But I don't think that was designed to be a solo mission as well. I see God's word used in our life exponentially, when we do it in community, when we do it in our local church, when we do it with, you know, grabbing a cup of coffee together and hanging out.
Speaker 3:It's important to do this kind of stuff and even the three of us working through this process has been a picture of this. I would not have had nearly the fullness or the texture on my understanding of work that I have now if it wasn't for hearing your perspective and kind of hashing through it with both of you guys together.
Speaker 1:So part of that antidote, I think, comes in Romans 12. This is Paul writing and he says do not be conformed to this world. I mean that's a command right which says hey, the world is trying to conform, you Don't be conformed to this world. So how do we not be conformed, he says, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good, acceptable and perfect.
Speaker 3:That conform and transform. Those two pictures are very interesting. You know, like the conforming, if you can think of like a jello mold or something like that, where you just like get cookie cutters, that's it, get cookie cutter to certain way. But then correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall the Greek word there for the transformed is where we get the word metamorphosis. Yes, you know, if you think of the things in nature which experience metamorphosis, like a butterfly, that changed from a caterpillar to a butterfly is entirely different. That's right, that change from a caterpillar to a butterfly is entirely different. So it's not at all like taking a blob and making a, you know, cookie cutter or a jello mold out of it. It's, you know, changing intrinsically from one thing to another. So we're called not to be conformed by the world but to be transformed by the rule of our mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You have a philosophy of life. You may not think of yourself as a philosopher or a deep thinker or anything like that, but you do. You have a lens in which you interpret the interactions you have with the world. When you go to work today and you screw up or your boss gets on you or you lose a sale, whatever it is, you're going to interpret that in a particular way, based on that lens. And that lens guides your decisions, your actions and your motivations. And what Paul's saying there is don't let the world shape that lens. Let it be God's word that's transforming you and living out that definition.
Speaker 1:You said work in all of these interactions. I'm going to come back to that. God put me here in this time and place and he made me in a particular way, and work's going to be associated with how I love and serve others. That is great. So I had an old pastor that used to re quote Romans 12, two in this particular way that I thought really it stuck with me. You know it's really jumps out and he says if you're not actively being transformed by the word of God, then you are unconsciously being conformed to this world.
Speaker 1:And I don't listeners today would just kind of think about that for a second. Am I actively being transformed in my mind, being renewed to line up with what God says is true, or am I just going about in this culture, being shaped completely by?
Speaker 2:it. So I think actively is the most important word because you know, if you think of it in terms of exercise, if you take a week off, just a week, you know going back to entropy, you can tell you're sore the next time you do it. So if you're not always working on transformation, then you will go back to the way you were. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:Active and passive, and if we are passive, the world's active.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The world is active and it's really the devil in his current dominion of the world Like he is active. So we just talked about all of these movements through history and how, for passive, we can be conformed to those different schools of thought. But let's back up and discuss the bigger picture of what our work is all about and specifically talk about this Christian concept of vocation and how our work interacts with God's purpose of provision.
Speaker 1:I talked about. The reformers wrote a lot about this and trying to break up that secular sacred division that had developed. That still has some remnants today. It's not as strong as it was, but depending on your tradition, where you come from, it can still be a part of your life, he said. As we pray each morning for our daily bread, people are already busy at work in the bakeries.
Speaker 1:What a picture. I know I love that quote. Let's go back to your definition again. I really want to hammer this home. We've seen what the world's influence looks like.
Speaker 3:Let's get back to a biblical paradigm for work. Okay, so our working definition is the activities associated with who God made you, where he put you and how you love and serve your neighbor thoughts about work and they do influence my daily life and I don't even enjoy those influences right, they make work feel not enjoyable.
Speaker 1:I don't wake up excited to go about the day. Okay, you've welcomed me to that. You've put out this definition. It's a little bit big right, like big picture.
Speaker 3:You don't need to land the plane, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm going to land the plane. I'm going to get really practical now, but I do think we got to be careful a little bit there, because I think we tend to get lost when we try to find that ultimate perspective or those rules that we're going to follow. They're going to apply to my specific situation. You know, I'm going to work 40 hours and I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do this and I'm going to do in this station, and life's not really like that.
Speaker 3:Man that is a struggle.
Speaker 3:I, for one, really look for ideals and then try to always, you know, if that's the ideal, a hundred percent conformance to the ideal, is what you want. You might be familiar with, like Michael Hyatt, as kind of a work productivity he's been talking about, like your double win, you know, winning at both work and work-life balance type of things, and one of the things that he advocates for is planning an ideal week and that you you know, and there's certainly some truth to this, that the things that you schedule are priorities and therefore, like you, you protect them with your calendar. But it's a tease because you cannot make.
Speaker 3:I have, I've done his exercise, but I cannot make every week conform to that ideal, and so I think that idea of season is really important.
Speaker 1:It is I think for the biggest walk away for someone where this is a new, fresh idea to them, is it's going to take some faith. It's going to take some trust. What does it look like to get up every day and to enter fluidly, as we do, through all those stations you mentioned? I'm a father, I'm a husband, I have a J-O-B right with priorities. I'm involved in my local church, I'm involved in my kids' school, so I have all these things. But as I'm going about all of that work, can I get up every day and think about how can I serve the people around me? Not how can I serve in that one volunteer thing that I did in my local church on sunday morning? That's when I serve everything else. I'm doing duties or responsibilities or all that. No, think about all of that, all of those stations that you're involved in. How, how can I get up and serve those?
Speaker 3:around me. Jesus really expanded that picture of who is my neighbor in his parable about the good Samaritan. So I hear you doing the same thing, with that idea of loving and serving your neighbor with every minute of your day. You know whether it's in your station as a husband, as a father, as an employee or employer or what have you.
Speaker 1:Seth, will you read? I think we were going to look at Matthew 22 and that greatest commandment.
Speaker 2:Sure 22, 36 through 40. Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law. And he said to him you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment and the law. And he said to him you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment, and a second is like it you shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.
Speaker 1:So a Christian concept of vocation is the specific call in your life to love one's neighbor through the duties which attach to your station, to your work, whatever that might look like day to day, right Minute to minute. And our stations include all of those ways that we relate to people around us. It's not just the J-O-B of the hours on the clock, all right, so you just to find two really important terms that we've been using yeah, vocation and station.
Speaker 3:Why don't you read those again?
Speaker 1:Vocation is the specific call to love one's neighbor through the duties which attach to our station within the earthly kingdom, and then our stations include all the ways we relate to other people. That's right yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's yep, that's really getting outside the box, right, like our work is not just our job what we get paid for, but and Seth and me, nathan, and you listener, to love your neighbor through the duties that attach to your station, which is your relationship and that is a paradigm shifting lens that I think we all had when we walked through this back in 2017 is that you get up today and you're not thinking about how am I going to do this specific task, how am I going to earn this money?
Speaker 1:All of that's true, right. We're not removing that, but put a overarching perspective over all of that that says how am I going to get up today and serve those that I interact with?
Speaker 2:Wow, you kind of tingles thinking about it, but you know what that does.
Speaker 1:That gives work a spiritual significance. Work then itself becomes a divine vocation. I don't care if you're doing plumbing, I don't care if you're preparing a message as a pastor for Sunday morning. Our vocation comes through our station or our calling, and it all matters to the Lord. He's using all of these things. You think about it? Through all the human pursuits that are going to happen in these next 24 hours, across all the array of earthly stations the hungry are fed, the naked or clothed, the sick or healed, the ignorant or enlightened and the weak are protected.
Speaker 3:Wow, Amen, mic drop, I'm ready to go to work. Yeah, amen, mic drop, I'm ready to go to work. Yeah, let's avoid. I'm thankful we are recording this in the morning. Thoughts, really a high calling. We're called to faithfulness in all of those areas. But what a privilege. It's not a drudgery, it's really something rich.
Speaker 1:You hit it right there. You hear that all the time People talk down about their current station. Somebody's got a case of the Mondays or that secular sacred divide that's crept in. You know, you know what do you do? Well, I'm just a sales guy for this distributor and I mean, I'm not a, I'm not a missionary, everybody has a thing, whether it's I'm not a missionary or oh, I'm not a venture capitalist, like whatever, whatever context you're in, like there is a vocation that is likely to be elevated and you think, oh, if I was that, then it would be good.
Speaker 3:But it's really more about taking stock in where will I best love and serve the people around me? So how has God made me Yep? What opportunities does he give me? What relationships do I have with other people? And so then, how can I really, just, motivated by love, how can I serve the people around me the best?
Speaker 1:Whatever you are going to do today, it has spiritual significance. This is why Paul says work as for the Lord rather than for men.
Speaker 2:That's what we're doing, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:God's going to use those efforts to do all those things I just talked about. It's huge.
Speaker 2:I think the microphone's already been dropped. I don't want to muddle it.
Speaker 3:We should just cut these last two minutes. Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:Well, guys, this is fun. Yeah, we ended up on a little bit of a romantic ideal from the word from the Lord and how we're to see work. But next week, because we know this is true, it is tough, there is a toil to it. We don't get to walk around with that vision all the time because things happen that break that up and work can be and is hard, right Seth.
Speaker 2:That's right. It can be difficult and we're going to look at that next episode.
Speaker 1:All right, okay, enjoyed being with you guys, boy thanks guys.
Speaker 3:Let's go serve the people Okay.
Speaker 1:We'll see you all next week.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining Fellowship Around the Table.
Speaker 1:To check out more, visit fbctulsaorg.
Speaker 2:I mean Joe Cocker made it famous for people in the 70s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the.
Speaker 2:Beatles had made it famous for people in the 60s.
Speaker 1:I take back everything I said and you were definitely right.
Speaker 3:That's what I've been advocating for, Seth. What's the recording of that clip?
Speaker 1:I just discovered the Zac Brown band did a cover of it. He said this is a Audi auditory media. So when you, so when you point at me, nobody knows I am here to like.
Speaker 3:I mean, you've only known me 15 years.
Speaker 1:Connect that space I saw.
Speaker 3:I saw Seth point. I knew that nobody else could see that.
Speaker 2:I kept waiting for him to talk.
Speaker 3:I'm here for you man, I'm here.
Speaker 2:If I was going to talk, I'd.
Speaker 3:Oh, you'd raise your hand.
Speaker 1:I was going to cough, I'd raise my hand. There's no video.
Speaker 2:Can we get the signals out here?
