Fellowship Around the Table
Great conversations about life, faith, and the Bible from Fellowship Bible Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma (www.fbctulsa.org).
Fellowship Around the Table
Made for Work: Work and the Curse w/ Seth Perry (Part 3 of 6)
Discover the profound impact of sin on our working lives as we chat with Seth Perry about the complexities of work in a fallen world. Drawing from Genesis 3, we unravel how the curse of sin reshaped work from its original design, introducing challenges like laziness and apathy. With personal stories and reflections, we tackle the intricate dance between personal, cultural, and systemic sin and their effects on our work environments. Explore how shifting cultural definitions of success can skew our relationship with work, and gain insights on how to navigate these persistent issues with wisdom and grace.
Inspired by Paul's counsel, we discuss the balance between combating apathy and avoiding the idolization of work. Through insights from Timothy Keller and the timeless wisdom of Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias," we reflect on the temporary nature of worldly achievements and the eternal significance of serving others. Finally, we journey through the winding paths of career and calling, emphasizing the importance of community support, patience, and trust in God's plan. Drawing inspiration from Oswald Chambers and Brother Lawrence, we celebrate the beauty in excelling at the ordinary as an act of worship. Join us for this enlightening conversation that seeks to redefine the purpose and joy of work amidst its challenges.
You are listening to Fellowship Around the Table. Welcome back to Fellowship Around the Table, where we endeavor to have great conversations about life, faith and the Bible Heath Casey here this week Around the Table I have Seth Perry hey Seth.
Speaker 2:Hey how you doing.
Speaker 1:Doing great. We are in week three on our series on work. This week we don't have our buddy Nathan with us.
Speaker 2:The late Nathan Cozart the late Nathan. Cozart. I mean he's not even going to be here. I'd say that's pretty late, oh.
Speaker 1:He can't show up on time is that it?
Speaker 2:He can't show up on time.
Speaker 1:I think he's actually out of town working, I think he's at a spy conference right now. He's at a spy conference. That's his station right, that's what he's called to. That's his work. That's awesome. Well, in the first episode, we discussed the origin of work and how it was created for us before the fall that we are bearing God's image when we're working. In the second episode, we heard how different periods have viewed work and how those views still impact us today. We had a working definition of work. What was that definition? Seth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this was shared by Nathan the activities associated with who God made you, where he puts you and how you love and serve your neighbor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that definition and I love these earlier conversations, but they have been a little bit romantic, right, Idealistic, maybe kind of setting a framework for how to think about work through God's lens. But we still know that work is difficult. There is a reason we come back to a negative view of work.
Speaker 2:And I would even change that just a little bit. I would say work can be difficult, because it's not always difficult. It brings a lot of joy sometimes, yeah. But yeah, this week we're looking at how work can be difficult and just came across a quote whether by brow or by plow, frequently frustrating, not quite satisfying, work can be difficult. So you've been with a few different companies. Yeah, you've got a title that has a little weight. Do you think work is difficult and why?
Speaker 1:I definitely do. I think work involves people, right, and what we know about our fallen state, that the fallen state of not just individuals but our whole system waiting for that ultimate restoration, it causes issues. I mean, people are by nature selfish, right, and our definition is saying the opposite of that. That we're called to love and serve our neighbor. Well, people don't walk around with that perspective no, no, and even me sometimes. But let's look at why.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so we talked about last week how work came before the fall yeah let's get into chapter three, okay.
Speaker 2:So genesis 3, 17. And to Adam, he said because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground because of you, in pain. You shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles, it shall bring forth for you, I'd like to say mosquitoes also, and you shall eat the plants of the field by, by the sweat of your face. You shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken, for you were dust, and to dust you shall return. So, heath, what was the curse? What word stood?
Speaker 1:out there, cursed is the ground In pain, thorns and thistles by the sweat of your face. It reminds me of the quote you just read whether by brow or by plow, frequently frustrating, not quite satisfying, where it can be difficult. There's something clearly changed here in terms of Adam's original state in the garden where he was put to keep it, maintain it, you know where he had having dominion like. Those parts are still true, but something has changed in the terms of how work's going to be done.
Speaker 2:So good. A quick summary. So original sin did we ever recover?
Speaker 1:No, there has been redemption in Christ, but we haven't seen the final restoration of a new heaven, a new earth. We're still living in this fallen atmosphere, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then from original sin other people's sin. How does other? People's sin affect us directly and indirectly. So somebody does something, not even necessarily directly to us, but there could be fallout that impacts us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's ripple effects, of consequences of other people's actions that we suffer them. I mean that's. That's just the way things are right. Nobody sends in a vacuum.
Speaker 2:Right and then even personal sin. I mean, what do we actually want? The heart is more deceitful than all else.
Speaker 1:We can be selfish, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, we are selfish daily, and then even just culturally. I mean, how do we define success? What do we value now versus what we valued 100 years ago? And then what is taught in schools and through the culture. So I believe the curse has led to two perversions of God's plan for work. Perversion one would be a laziness and apathy towards work. And just for some context, laziness we'll define as averse or disinclined to work, activity or exertion. Apathy will define as a complete lack of emotion or motivation, whether directed towards a person, activity or object.
Speaker 1:Yeah, perversion one. So, in response to the fact that there's sin, now Sin has entered the world and there's a fallen state from God's original design and layout, that we're waiting for final redemption but we're living in that part, one of humans' reactions to that is, like you said, this laziness and this apathy. Definitely, see that.
Speaker 2:And I think a quote that captures it really well that I'm sure we've all heard never sweat on their time and never use the we'll say the facilities on your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have heard that one and I've worked with people with that mentality right. Stick it to the man. That's right. Yeah, have you had personal experience with this? You know this perversion of laziness and apathy towards work.
Speaker 2:Growing up, my my mentality was probably more just let it burn and why care about it? So I actually went back to school and got a second degree, and while I was doing that I worked at FBC.
Speaker 1:Fellowship Bible Church right here.
Speaker 2:Right here for three years and I worked for a gentleman who had come from about as poor as you could be and ended up being one of three or four people in the nation that could testify as an expert witness in his field Wow, and he had joked with me about I was in facilities and he was the facilities director. Okay, and he joked with me about there's something you're not seeing that needs attention, and so it was a bit of a game for two, three weeks. I'd come in and say, Jerry, I have no idea what you're talking about. And he'd just laugh and say it's there. So finally, two weeks in, I give up and say, Jerry, I have no idea what you're talking about. It's a 60,000 square foot facility. And he said upstairs in the youth area which, by the way, no adults really ever go in there's a wasp stuck in one of the light diffusers that's been dead and is just sitting there.
Speaker 2:And I laughed and said well, jerry, I noticed that I just don't care. It was a playful laugh, but I still meant like why does it matter, jerry? And he looked at me like I had offended him and he wasn't being malicious. But he said I can't understand you. He said I can't understand a man who doesn't take pride in who he is and what he does. And I was about 26 at the time and I ended up with tears in my eyes after that conversation and he came around and hugged me and it was a great time that God really used that to open my eyes to my perversion of apathy.
Speaker 1:Wow, that stuck with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Quite a bit. It's the impact of somebody that has your respect because of who they are and they say something hard to you. You know you wouldn't want that, you wouldn't draw that up. But, man, afterwards you look back and you're so thankful.
Speaker 2:One of the greatest gifts I've ever received. Wow, that's so cool. Yeah, but let's contrast that with God's Word. Okay, so look into 2 Thessalonians 3, 6 through 12. So look into 2 Thessalonians 3, 6 through 12. It was not because we do not have the right, but to give you and ourselves an example to imitate, for even when we were with you, we would give you this command If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busy bodies. Now, such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
Speaker 2:So what's the observation? That spreading of the gospel was so important. They worked to be good witnesses, calling others to join in the task as well, and then they also recognized the sin, particular to the Thessalonians, which was idleness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the work that they were going about, you know, spreading the gospel, but they saw that the way that they actually did their physical work was a witness to that. Like it's such a. It's so incredible, it's a paradigm shift.
Speaker 2:It's a paradigm shift For a lot of us, especially in the West.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that gets into the. You know, when we look at our definition, that the activities associated with who God made you, where he put you and how you love and serve your neighbor, this really starts to show the quality or the level of how we do that right. And going back to what we said in the previous week, that this is why Paul says do your work as for the Lord rather than for men. And you can see Paul has that perspective here that whatever I do, I'm going to do to the best of my ability the pushback against apathy and laziness, because when I'm doing that I am supposed to be bearing God's image.
Speaker 2:That's right and and the application for us is people at work know you're a believer. Also, people at work in your family know you're a believer and do they respect Jesus based upon your work ethic, or are you a reason for God not existing in their eyes? Yeah, or not being worth following?
Speaker 1:There is something that is such a turnoff about an overly apathetic or lazy person who wants to. You know, follow that and be like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's something that I didn't realize is the inherent selfishness in it. People around you are having to finish your job or do your job. Oh yeah, I mean, it's like there's a person not there.
Speaker 1:That's the antithesis to our definition, and people don't always think about laziness and apathy in that way, but it is utterly selfish.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the second perversion, a mania or a consumption with work. Pretty straightforward right Can't stop working, whether it's work creates self-worth or power or wealth or any combination Kind of status. Generally speaking, I've never met a really successful man. That says, man, I wished I'd worked more. Spent more time at the office, yeah, as opposed to my family, yeah. Well, I wished.
Speaker 1:I'd worked more, spent more time at the office, yeah, as opposed to my family, yeah. Well, I think what you see here in this perversion, because there is a sense of they're taking one of those stations that they've been called to work and they're elevating it above everything else, so it is turning it almost into an idol. And then it's a selfish pursuit, because they're pursuing some legacy or you know some status, or they're pursuing you know wealth and power, and it's about them Right.
Speaker 1:And they've perverted that one station when they're obviously probably have multiple stations. They've been called to do work in and elevated that above else, and I've definitely worked with people that had that mindset you know, that's what drove them.
Speaker 1:And, as you said, that station, all of our stations, are going to pass. They're not forever right. And you see people that elevate, say, just the J-O-B one, and they're going to get to a point where they're going to retire or that's going to fade away and they feel lost after that because that they put everything into that and what they were getting out of that.
Speaker 2:When they slow down and reflect, some of them realize that they don't know their children or their maybe even their spouse they've neglected their other stations or maybe they've even gone through a divorce, as a result of those pursuits?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why I love going back to the definition that, when we get up with that perspective that we're going to use our station and our calling and our gifts and where we've been put, when we've been put, and use that to love and serve others, it's not something that we hold on to tightly Right, yeah, we can be flexible in. It's not something that we hold on to tightly right. Yeah, we can be flexible in terms of how we operate in our stations, and it's not the end of the world if we move on or lose our J-O-B.
Speaker 2:So Timothy Keller in Every.
Speaker 1:Good.
Speaker 2:Endeavor has a quote that all of us just love. But whether quickly or slowly, all the results of our toil will be wiped away by history. History's probably not going to remember Seth Perry.
Speaker 1:But the Lord does and that's where, going back to this paradigm that we're offering up, it does have spiritual significance, which is eternal significance. The way that we love and serve our neighbor does impact eternity, right, yes, now the package or the board deck that I get up and do in pursuit of the Lord and loving and serving my neighbor, that'll carry on to eternity.
Speaker 2:And it shouldn't be a demotivator. Right, you read that and some people woe is me it's all going to fall apart. But like we said in a previous podcast, I mean, we're still called to serve our neighbor, to build into our communities, to bring the light of the gospel to our community, which makes it a better place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, keller's quote sounds like Solomon in Ecclesiastes Right yeah, so the poem was written by Percy Shelley.
Speaker 2:It's called Ozymandias, if you want to look it up. I met a traveler from an antique land who said Two vast and trunkless legs of stone stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command tell that its sculpture. Well, those passions read which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, the hand that mocked them and the heart that fled. And on the pedestal these words appear my name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works. Ye mighty in despair, nothing beside remains round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare the lone and level, sands stretch far away.
Speaker 2:I know it can be difficult to follow, but the imagery you think of Egypt maybe in the 1800s, when the British first came upon it and everything was covered in sand. And you've got here a statue with two legs and a head are all that remain, and the guy has a pedestal that's bragging on how great he was and as great as he was. Everything is gone except a broken statue that was a tribute to him, and so I think that speaks to again. It's not something that should be a demotivation to us, but it should give us perspective. We approach work with humility. We're serving the Lord in what we do every day, whether at home or in the office, and we need to work hard for the Lord, not for our own legacy.
Speaker 1:And to remember that, from generation to generation, that we're inheriting the things that have come before us and we are just stewards of our moment and we will be passing on an inheritance to the next generation, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, but our plaque is in heaven.
Speaker 1:Right, that's right yeah, that's getting back to our pursuits, our energies, our efforts. All of those things can have and do, but can have eternal significance If we go about it in the Lord's perspective.
Speaker 2:I think that answers the question. How shall we then approach work?
Speaker 1:And, knowing that it's not perfectly utopian, we know the realities, that we struggle and it's hard and this difficulties. We work with difficult circumstances and we work with difficult people. Yeah, so how do then? How? How do we approach work?
Speaker 2:I think it was captured great by Brother Lawrence in the practice of the presence of God and he says the time of business does not, with me, differ from the time of prayer. And in the noise and clutter of my kitchen I possess God and as great tranquility as if I were upon my knees at the blessed sacrament. For the listeners who don't know, Brother Lawrence was essentially a dishwasher in a kitchen and he wrote an amazing book called the Practice of the Presence of God and how he communed with God daily while he was washing dishes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so translate that for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we are image bearers of Christ, given salvation and the ability to have dignity through work, and we should approach work with the same sense of worship that we approach communion.
Speaker 1:Another thing that comes to mind, seth, that can make work difficult, is that mismatch of our gifting and our vocation. How does that make work difficult?
Speaker 2:Again, let's go to a quote from a brilliant man. This is from the Call by Oz Guinness. Our primary calling as followers of Christ is by him, to him and for him. That's our primary calling. Our secondary calling, considering who God is as sovereign, is that everyone, everywhere and in everything, should think, speak, live and act entirely for him. Did he specify doctor, digger, homemaker, home builder? No, I mean, can you make sense of this quote? What's he saying?
Speaker 1:Well, getting back to our primary calling as followers of Christ, it is all about to him and to his glory, right that he created us. We get to bear his image. He's redeemed us. We're waiting for that ultimate restoration. But as we go about our day-to-day life and I love remembering this about Jesus I know it's not a big part of the gospels, but the creator of heaven and earth put on this flesh and became like us, right, and then lived what we can sometimes call the mundane life for 30 years. That, to me, gives that I'm using that negative term that culture says that mundane. To me gives that I'm using that negative term, that culture says that mundane incredible significance that he found it worthy to get up and do the day-to-day life, to have a job and to do all of that just like us yeah, as opposed to just appearing and saying, hey, look at me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean think about all the ways that he could have let out the same redemption plan. He could have just showed up on the scene and started his public ministry, right, yeah, but he chose to live moment by moment, like we do for those 30 years.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of us skip over those 30 years.
Speaker 1:Well and fair enough. The account from scripture largely does too. There's not a lot there, but we do know that it was a part of the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, some of what makes work difficult for us today is vocational mobility and discontent with where we are in our work. Discontent, yeah right so vocational mobility is a relatively new phenomenon, about 250 years old. It's where advances in technology have created more opportunities for vocational paths.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For example, my grandfather quit school in eighth grade to work on the farm, my dad first to go to college. He's a retired accountant and I'm in operations. So the wealth of the West has given rise to many degreed baristas. There you go. That's right.
Speaker 1:And that was me at one baristas.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:That's right, and that was me at one point also, right, yes, so what do you think of what feels like we can do anything and be anything in that near infinite path of careers? I have a daughter that's a senior and kind of thinking about those next steps and college, and you know what do I want to be and college, and you know what do I want to be, and in some sense it's overwhelming because it seems like, well, anything's on the table right and it's like you know what you said there an infinite path of careers. What do you think of that?
Speaker 2:Again, it's a blessing in some ways. Sure, I mean, it gives an extraordinary amount of opportunity, but it also leads to a lot of, I think, cultural anxiety. I mean me, for example. I went to OU to be an electrical engineer, graduated a psychology major and then I did missions work for three years and decided not to do psychology. And then God called Karen and I off of the ministry staff, so then I had to go remodel houses. I went back and studied finance and accounting while working at the church, and then I graduated during the Great Recession. I couldn't get a job in finance or accounting, so I went back to remodeling houses and then, just by quote, chance, like I'd shared earlier, my wife teaches horseback riding and one of her clients owns part of the business I work at now. So I started in operations in 2013 and have been there since Just how you draw it up.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, very linear. But you know, I think all that speaks to part of the lie being perpetuated in our culture is that there's just one job for us, one spot that makes our heart sing. Yeah, and I think that's true for some people, sure.
Speaker 1:But it's complex.
Speaker 2:It's complex, yeah, and God bless those people that know exactly what they want to be when they're eight years old.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:But what do you think about that? Do you think that's true?
Speaker 1:Do you think about that? Do you think that's true? Do you think it's false? No, I think you're exactly right. That lie that is perpetuated by culture puts a lot of undue pressure on individuals and it elevates the so-called paid station above some of those others. And I think in our culture and our day and time, where other cultures, and especially in the past, really elevated's what's going to give you meaning and happiness and joy, elevates that to the point that these other stations become less elevated and those other stations do give you great meaning and joy. And then too, you did all these other things and I think you look back on it and you have great joy in what you've learned from those other pursuits. And so I think not having that pressure on that one pursuit and this one career and this one path and if you get off that path everything's upside down the perspective we're offering takes a lot of that pressure away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just some patience on the Lord's work, yeah, yeah, and I think another lie, that is that our gifting and makeup don't matter and that whichever degree will earn us the most money, most prestige, is what should be pursued.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that lie just completely removes God from the situation, that he didn't design you in a particular way. And then the whole point of vocation is to start in the most money you can. That's this. It's not going to end up well for you.
Speaker 2:The point is serve where you are with the proper perspective, looking to again the word of God, romans 8, 28. And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Yeah, it's not always smiles, no, but again, the good is the long-term. What is God doing? He's transforming us into his likeness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's that long-term arc that, no matter what happens today, I can come back to that perspective and it does give an eternal perspective to even the difficulties that might have happened that day, if we can see them under that light. Important to walk out our faith in community, because you probably do need a spouse, some friends to come back and help you through those more difficult times which can so blind us to that eternal perspective and we can get myopic. We need some people around us to pull us out and remind us of that longer arc and what the Lord's doing in that Romans 8 passage.
Speaker 2:And even beyond that. You look at Ephesians 2.10. That states For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. I mean, before what? And are these individual or corporate works? Yes, right, it's one thing to think that before God created the universe he knew who I was and that he would call me out of darkness.
Speaker 2:But then, to think that he even went further, to create works for Heath Casey and for Seth Perry that only we can do in the time and space he's given us.
Speaker 1:It's so comforting and, you may imagine, like starting a new job today. I just recently started a new job and you show up and you're kind of like, okay, what am I supposed to do? And they're like, um, I don't know, that would be a little bit of panic, right. But to know that before all of eternity, the Lord thought me out and planned me and designed me, but also, as you pointed out, prepared these good works for me to do beforehand as well, oh man, it takes a lot of comfort in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that in itself is exceptional. Sometimes what we're called to isn't necessarily exceptional. Going back to the mundane statement.
Speaker 1:you said Not mundane in a bad way, it's just.
Speaker 2:it's not always glorious, but Oswald Chambers said that it's inbred in us that we have to do exceptional things for God, as defined by people. But we haven't. We have to be exceptional in the ordinary things, to be holy in mean streets, among mean people. And this is not learned in five minutes.
Speaker 1:It goes back to Brother Lawrence doing exceptional things with the Lord while doing the dishes.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and remember that calling is a matter of God's love and therefore an act of worship in the form of action, not a cause for personal conceit. So read that again. That's important. So read that again. That's important. Calling is a matter of God's love and therefore an act of worship in the form of action, not a cause for personal conceit. Yeah, amen, yeah, and I think, just in wrapping things up, looking to Matthew 25, where it's the parable of the talents and it's a long passage so I won't read all of it the talents and it's a long passage so I won't read all of it. But it's just talking about god has given all of us gifts and and some he gave one talent, some two, some five, some ten. Yeah, and just for the listeners.
Speaker 1:The context there talent in english is sounds like you know a gifting, but it is talking about money. But he's giving these, these servants, something to go and steward right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he gives it to them and then he goes away, right, and when he returns, he wants to see his return, yeah, and so the person he gave one talent to, what did he do? He buried it, yeah, yeah, and didn't produce a return.
Speaker 1:No, didn't steward it at all.
Speaker 2:So what did the giver do with that talent? Took it away from him and gave it to somebody that was more faithful right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the others, you see, were faithful. They multiplied their talents two to four, you know, so on and so forth. Yeah, so all of us have been given talents, whether one, five or 10, and we were called to be grateful for them, not envious of others who might have more talents, but to love God by utilizing those gifts. And in utilizing our talents, we have peace in Christ, knowing that God has called us each to use our gifts for the building up of the body and the spreading of his name to the world.
Speaker 1:Each of those talents that the Lord gives, that he prepared beforehand, that he designed you to do and he designed the actual works for you to do are a high calling and you don't need to look down on it, like you said, or be envious of other people's calling. Your part is significant to what God is doing and a vital component to the body of Christ. Amen, it's good stuff, all right, so God is doing, and a vital component to the body of Christ. Amen, it's good stuff, all right. So work is difficult. That's part of God's design. But he's using that and kind of that, romans a fashion that we know. For the those who love God, all things are working together for good. Those are called according to his purpose. So what do we have on tap next week? Seth?
Speaker 2:So next week we're looking at how do we identify our work with God's work, and Mr Cozart should be back and bringing that for us.
Speaker 1:Excellent, I'm looking forward to it Me too. Thanks for having me. All right, we'll see y'all next week. Thanks for joining Fellowship Around the Table. If you would like to learn more, go to fbctulsaorg.
