Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
WOTS - Gender Expectations in Marriage and President Tinubu's Ministerial List
Word On The Streets - WOTS: Ever wondered why societal expectations in marriage seem so skewed, or why women are so underrepresented in leadership roles? We're answering these questions and more in this riveting discussion with Tsema Ede, a remarkable human rights lawyer and Policy expert. We engage in a profound conversation, analyzing everything from the societal burdens set upon women and men in marriages, to the glaring gender inequity in Nigerian politics.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone. Welcome again to Genderish, the show designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time.
Speaker 2:My name is Nnedi and I'm here with Hello everyone, nice to have you join us In today's episode. We are joined by a lovely guest to discuss some of the gender issues that made the rounds on social media this past week. First we look at the questions is the boarding of marriage heavier on men or women? And secondly, we look at presidentinubis, ministerialists and the lack of adequate representation of women. Begging the question why does society have such low expectations of women?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh yes, and as usual, I'm super excited because it feels like we're just unwrapping awesome gift boxes. So today we have a wonderful guest, as Cammy already mentioned. Without much ado anymore, let's introduce ourselves Over to you, Shema.
Speaker 3:Hi Nnedi, hi Cammy, hello everyone. Hi Shema, my name is Shema Edie. First mom. I introduce myself as mother, daughter, sister, divine, lawyer, lawyer. Goddess a speck or more, but honestly no. On a serious note though, yeah, mom is a big part of who I am. Sister, daughter, friend is also a big part of who I am. Lawyer has defined me and has guided me through my life's journey, and at the moment I am a human rights lawyer. I work in Nigeria's development space. A lot of my work is centered around providing policy solutions for communities, citizens, low income communities, minoritized groups and marginalized groups, ie women, sometimes the members of the disabilities community and other groups that may or may not need adequate representation and human rights protection. So that's a quick summary of my work policy combination around human rights and good governance, basically.
Speaker 2:That's really good, shema, and it's great that you do walk around inclusivity, especially with marginalized populations, so that's great work. So you're very pleased with this conversation that we are having today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, looks like it. I got excited when I heard you talk about the minister Alice. I'm like, yeah, they know too, mr Will. We always know too, mr Will.
Speaker 1:Okay, guys, that's our powerhouse at Shema Kemi. At this point, at this juncture, I feel like we should create some sort of portfolio where we just wave about our awesome panelists every time so that people can read about them, they can see what they do, they can get their contact information If they want to reach out to them in case they need their expertise, experiences or trust issues. They want to help with the work.
Speaker 2:I agree. I agree, nedy. So we're doing a lot of tagging of our guests every episode, just so that you can follow them on their social media handles and just engage with them. Connect with them and especially the work that they do resonates very strongly with the listeners. Yeah, true.
Speaker 1:Okay, guys. So let's just go right in. So this episode is titled Word on the Streets. So I know the topics in normal fashion might sound very serious, very threatening, but yeah, what we do here is serious. I believe everyone, absolutely.
Speaker 1:However, today, where it's going to be freestyle, it's going to be free-flowing, and I really we're really, really looking forward to hearing what you guys as we continue this world on the street series. So today, to kick it off, we're going to delve right into the first question Is the burden of marriage heavier on men or women? Now, this question is really key because of the few things that happened over the week and, in fact, in the past one month. So we have the case of a well-known Nigerian actor known as Yuli Adonche and his marriage. He's on his second marriage and has been very public and has been very messy, and we've had comments from both sides of the divide claiming that all the first wife should have done more to keep her husband. You know, and while they are on the side of the divide is going well, she's also a person. Why is you know? Why is the society not defending her? Why was the fighting of expecting him as well to have done more to keep his marriage. So how do you keep a husband?
Speaker 3:I'm curious. So when I say, when I say you know, I don't want to keep the man or the woman, you keep a man, though, like, do you put like a chain to his uncle and keep him in the house or visit that? You look him up in a cage, or is it? How do you keep a man, ladies? I'm curious, I'm curious.
Speaker 1:I'm curious. No, just for what we're here to offer people.
Speaker 2:And the fact that people always have that expectation of women, Of women Kick men yeah.
Speaker 1:Pushama. Why is everybody heavier on women?
Speaker 2:Offer the shit thing. The body is heavier on women, or is it heavier on men?
Speaker 3:Exactly. I think the burden to make a marriage work is on both parties, because it takes two parties to tangle. It takes two to tangle, like they always say. I also think that marriage is no easy feat. I know that for some people, they say, oh, I've had ice cream, ice cream, ice cream, I want to try gelato, I want to try Fruyu, but it's different, isn't it? It's a commitment to one person, and a commitment that I'm going to make, whatever I'm going to do life with this one person. So, yeah, I wonder if it's a society that puts the burden on women and women who put the burden on ourselves.
Speaker 3:I think it's a little bit of both. I believe that it's a little bit of both, because society has told you oh, it depends on what society, though, what you are hearing from society, because there are always two voices. But there's this thing that puts pressure on you like I don't want to be the one to fail, and it's oh, I remember an interesting thing that happened to me. So there's this scripture a wise man holds down a home and a foolish man tears it down with his own hands. I'm a single mom and I remember someone said to me one time that I'm a foolish woman. And they said to me that I'm a foolish woman because I use my own hands to tear my own down, because the Bible says why is woman builds our home and a foolish woman tears it down. And I remember going back and crying in my eyes.
Speaker 3:I did a medium post on it, thinking about talking about how I had failed. And people are oh no, you didn't fail. You did this for so many for long, but I failed. I couldn't give my parents, my children, a two-parent home and I was so struggle with the burden of failure. But the burden of failure is not because I think that it's my job to keep a home or to keep a man, but the burden of failure is what could I have done differently to make it work? Or what could I have done In the beginning or after? It could have been either way. But I will say this that is where a lot of women fail, the burden from when a scripture says a wise woman builds our home and a foolish woman tears down our home. But they also forget that you need an alive woman to do their home. You need a woman who has a complex of all the veneral diseases in Africa, from your community, you know what's to build the home.
Speaker 3:You also forget that you need a sane woman to build the home, and so if she's insane, she's sick, she's diseased or probably dead, so that home that they expect that it builds for a man is not gonna happen. Secondly, I also think that men have been given a free passport too long and we do it even as spirits, even as a single mother, I tell myself I need to do better with my sons and I'm like what the eff? Why am I putting this kind of pressure on myself? I hear people say, oh, this guy's mother did not raise him right. I hear it, and sometimes they say these things as well this guy's mother did not raise him right.
Speaker 3:And so we have inadvertently put that pressure on women, whether it has young women, older women. But we've just come to believe that is the mother that has the burden to do all of that. And I think it's time we started to talk to conversation the other way and start pushing back and saying that oh so, elousta, what's your own responsibility in this world now? So she didn't keep a man, so the man did not want to be kept, so why did you not want to be kept yourself? You know that kind of thing, yeah, and I think that it is, yes, it takes to tango and the pressure on women comes from these expectations, whether it is church, society, religion. I take back church, religion, society or culture that puts that pressure on women, but we need to start to what's the word that I mean? We came for D.
Speaker 2:Because trust dismantle, Dismantle.
Speaker 3:We need to dismantle those stereotypes that I've experienced. Trust, yeah, and so this is why the stereotype is flawed.
Speaker 2:You know, shema, thank you for just being very open and playing about it, but also bringing your own experience, and I would say this in terms of I personally feel that the burden should be on both men and women, too, to build new marriages. But what we see is that, even right from when a girl is a little girl of just four or five years, someone is already telling you is that how you're going to do in your husband's house Is what's going to happen to your husband? So it goes back to patriarchy and that was what I was chatting with Nnedi earlier on and the fact that the system of patriarchy, which looks at position, power, privilege and the dominance of men, primarily by men, it kind of feeds into all of these things that we see. So men are due, superior. There's a sense of entitlements that comes with that, there's a sense of ownership of women that comes with the system of patriarchy, and then it begins to manifest itself, like when you tell a little girl says, oh, I don't want to cook or I don't like cooking, and you say, oh, then what's your husband going to eat when you get married? So nobody's asking the little girl about what are you going to eat when you are grown.
Speaker 2:Why does it have to be centered around the man? So it then creates that whole expectation that you know one women shouldn't have a sense of self outside of marriage. Your sense of self and worth that's what we're conditioned and socialized to believe from very, very onset is that your sense of self and conditioning is tied around your ability to find a man and keep him. And keep a man you know, satisfy and serve. That's what you're here. And of course then we talk about the male gaze as well. So you see a situation where women who don't want to be or who are in marriages, for example, that threaten their lives or is abusive to them, because you've been told your job is to find and keep. That's why you're here.
Speaker 2:Then they don't want to come out of it. Even when I got married like it's just barely how many months ago I know how many times people told me you know now it's your responsibility to keep your home, it's your responsibility to ensure your marriage works, and I always push back. You cannot put that burden on just me. There are two people in this relationship, but I think, just like you talked about culture, religion, the society and all the roots, because it all stem from patriarchy.
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, it's that dominance of men and the sense of entitlement that mentioned not be held accountable. But again, it also hurts men as well, because then it makes it also for a lot of people. Then they feel that, oh, this means that I own this person and, as a result of that, I need to exercise authority or supremacy over this person, and some of those are manifested in violence, like you talked about, just doing whatever you like, cheating and feeling like all the women should accept you just like that, because that's her duty. Yeah, just wanted to put that there.
Speaker 1:Oh man, like a whole lot has been said here right now, and I'm going to kind of pause us a bit to put something out there to our listeners, our guys, so that it doesn't look like it's just women chatting away trying to be all up in arms about women's rights. I would like everyone of us to listen to this particular episode with a very open mind and try to answer the questions that we're posing here by yourselves, because if you keep pushing this burden to a particular gender or to a particular person or to a particular sex, then we want the danger of creating a society of very frustrated women or of very frustrated gender, and that could only lead to violence. So really, listening to this podcast, listening to this conversation, do you honestly think that this burden of sustaining a relationship or sustaining a marriage should lean more on one side? Does it really make sense? And that would lead me to a story I read on Instagram before we started, about a woman who was running out of issues just beside herself, running out of her mind with worry. Her husband had an affair and confessed to her. They were six steps to try to make it up to her, so one of the steps they had taken was consulting a professional, a therapist. So they went in therapy and all that. And one of the things they had asked them to do as they walked their way back to each other was being open to each other.
Speaker 1:So it turns out that the lady he had cheated with is an in-law influencer, you know, or actress or whatever they are called. And the lady was still reaching out to her husband and her husband sharing everything with her, you know videos, creating dog accounts to send the guy. They kept pictures and all sorts of things, and the man had blocked her everywhere. So the lady said she got into a park where is still to work in her mind, where she's like I love this man, I'm walking my way back to him, I believe him, but right now I feel so much pressure to fight this believing. And the reason why she cried out is, you know, every if I post, I have her account, I have all these details. If I post it, people are going to start attacking me, or people are going to be asking wow, women not supporting women, and so she's like I don't know what to do, help me out. And then the person whose page this was on was like she had been trying to, you know, mediate the matter and in fact she ended up speaking to the woman's husband and she also got to a point where she's so mad and she's like, oh God, it's your responsibility. You got to this man. God, fix it. He shouldn't let you see this. Yeah, go fix it, kill it off. I don't know why he needs to talk.
Speaker 1:And then I was so proud to be in comment session before. We're like it's his business, he did it, he's a man, he knows what to do. So, really, like Shama said, the bottom of religion, the bottom of society, the bottom we put on ourselves, it shouldn't be a one person thing. And I was so proud when when Kenny said I just got married and when people come at me with this, I just push back and leave with me. So let's have this conversation and let's offer answer in all honesty to two of you got into a marriage. Why should the burden be on one person? So guys would like to read.
Speaker 2:But you know, nnedi, because even men also argue that there's a burden that is placed on them, which is the burden of provision. Right, shama, I'm sure maybe you could help us here. But men, I see men who argue that and say, oh, society expects us to work and provide. You know, but that also has its own implications, because if you now raise a group of men or a generation of men who feel that if they can't provide for their families, then they have failed at some. There are no longer men.
Speaker 3:There are no longer men, so it's also Hurts men too yeah that's how patriarchy hurts men.
Speaker 2:So you tie the essence of a man to his pocket. That's basically what it is. Your ability to provide is what defines you. What about his intellect? What?
Speaker 1:about yourself, and then you create a group of women who are entitled to the pockets, to the pockets exactly.
Speaker 2:And then, well, men are not able to provide, maybe because they've lost a job, or maybe they're going through a bad time in their lives. They're not even open to their spouses or their partners to ask for help, because for him that is going against the grain. And then now, in today's economy, we have a lot of two providers households, women are pitching in, men are pitching in as well, and you see men who say, no, no one is ever going to provide for me and my man. I'm like well, life hasn't dealt to you a hard one, because if life gives you a hard one, you won't even know when you'll be okay with someone, with a woman, providing for you. But that's also when we talk about patriarchy and how it hurts men. It's that burden as well of they must be providers. What about men who have chosen to be stay at home dads? Maybe because, as a family, they've looked at the income that comes in, and perhaps the woman is pulling in more?
Speaker 3:right and we choose this.
Speaker 2:You know, stay at home and take care of my kids. They're my kids too. But we see that men like that get a lot of flak, even from the society. I don't know African men tend to be very adverse to wanting to be stay at home dads.
Speaker 3:But I'm just I don't know if I want to stay at home. I don't know if I think I'm going to say this. I agree with you. I have a friend who struggles so much with providing for his family and his family wanted a certain lifestyle which he couldn't afford and I was borrowing money from me and he would say well, the Bible says a man cannot provide what's done an infidel. And I'm like what? If you don't have it, you have to live a certain lifestyle. And I think, ultimately, what I want to say about this and about marriage and about partnership is that it comes down to, I believe, for me, two people who generally care about each other and are kind to each other. Why is kindness so important? I think kindness is important because I've seen I was watching this show on Netflix called how to get rich or something like that. I'm talking about families and this guy was trying to help families navigate their money. The movie was in tech, the guy was doing well for himself, but I don't know what that story is.
Speaker 3:And she did it all back and it got that show got me thinking. Let me tell you what it got me thinking. She signed up supervising how he spends the money. They had agreed he would stay around, that I just provided him with how he spends the money. This is how he does it, and she felt he was irresponsible with money. Meanwhile he was making money in the past. But he chose to step down and they went up and she makes good money, but she did not show him kindness and suddenly, after a couple of years, she forgot that he was making money and made this decision for her family and she now he never had money to himself and it seemed a bit twisted because he felt empty, he felt sad, he felt there's this emptiness that comes from not doing what you want to do. At the same time, this is also emptiness that comes from you need to provide for your family.
Speaker 3:So I think if two practices are kind to each, kind enough to each other to understand what everybody's got is and what we can fool and how we can fill those gaps, he helps Again. That is why marriage is much more than provision. I believe it's much more than provision. I believe it's ultimately companionship. I know you have to be with life else to go on, but I think ultimately it's companionship, and you can't be, you can't be companions with someone you're not kind with or you don't like being with, and so that's why, for me, kindness is ultimately the kindness that doesn't make you step out on your spouse, exactly Because you think?
Speaker 3:to yourself. I don't want to disrespect her this way. It's kindness that makes you think, oh, I see she's had a long day at work. Even if I had a long day at work, maybe two of us can get this done together. And if we can get done together, maybe we can hire help. And that's where we need to look at it from. I wouldn't judge a man who says to his wife babe, I think I can take care of us. Why don't you focus on kids?
Speaker 3:and she's focused on the kids and good to each other and they are raising good kids. I wouldn't judge a family any dynamic. I would enjoy the dynamic as a woman also who is working and the guy is taking care of the woman, is running things and is doing his own business. I wouldn't judge that dynamic. What I do know is that nature hits a vacuum and that when good gaps exist, things fill those vacuums. I have to be careful what you fill those vacuums with. And women, ultimately, if you're finding a spouse like you're going to settle a spouse or you want to keep a spouse, I would rather I keep a kind man than keep a man who could be bothered by how I feel. Yeah, and that's what I think. Ultimately, whether it is the patriarchy, whether it is gender based violence, whether it is anything, kindness is at the heart of it. I used to think it was the fear of God, but life has taught me that people who say yeah, God may not fear God enough not to slap you.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and then who knows the kind of God they're talking about?
Speaker 2:Sometimes the same God Sometimes, yeah, browns, they use to manipulate you and they tell you you are no real less Christian.
Speaker 3:So it's.
Speaker 1:I know you say God, but what lens are they using to look at him? Maybe they're not.
Speaker 3:They can't realize that even people who don't trust God, people who don't know God, people who don't even believe in God, can be kind to their spouse.
Speaker 2:They can be kind. Yes, they have the capacity to be kind, yeah.
Speaker 3:And kindness will make you want to hurt someone you love. Ultimately, true, true, true and that's or even hurt anybody, or?
Speaker 1:hurt anybody.
Speaker 3:Or hurt anybody.
Speaker 1:Don't love yes. Yes, all right, ladies, moving on, because we stay on this question, we ain't going to close this episode?
Speaker 2:No, that's also what I wanted to talk about, because I do agree in terms of I feel if we had a society that didn't impose roles or expectations on people, I feel that a lot of families, men and women generally would come to rich decisions that are mutually beneficial for both parties, without feeling need to be performative, or I must abide by this even when I know it's hurting me, right. So I agree with Shema because it's not about judging the dynamics, it's just the fact that if we didn't have some of these impositions, people would be able to walk out what works best for them.
Speaker 2:True story that Shema talked about. I watched that episode and it goes back to what Nege was saying about how some women feel entitled to setting things from men. That woman is what she's been conditioned to. Firstly agreed, oh, you stay at home, I go to work because I earn more. But then, of course, the condition kicks in and it's like, oh, but you're spending so much money and you're supposed to be one provider, but now you're spending all the money that I'm bringing in. But if we didn't have those rules and those rules at least in most cases then people are able to agree what works best for our family, what would be the best to advance our family, to make sure that we're both healthy, we have the mental capacity to keep our family, to raise our family. We have all the fortitude we need in a way that is enabling for us, not as society dictates, and I'm hoping that we can get to that point as a people. But then it starts with having conversations. It starts with changing some of these norms or this, this belief systems or these ideas that we have, because it also makes me talk about the bit of childbearing as well, which is actually another way that society tends to put a lot in people.
Speaker 2:Yes, saying that if a family is unable to have children, everyone automatically believes is the woman's problem, it's not the man, it can't be the man. Men have to be vile, so there's no way that the problem is coming from him. And you've seen women who have had to do so many things just because they can't come out to say oh no, I'm not the problem. Right, and I've read it on social media, where People come out to talk anonymously about the fact that they're not able to have kids and it's their fault as the man. But they can't say it. But they know that their wives are taking a lot of black from people. So stand it please, yeah. And what is wrong? Also, if a couple is saying we don't want to have children, which is children? We just want the companionship. I don't know if we'll ever get to a point where people understand that that's also OK too, but when it comes to childbearing, yes, Somebody said you have womb watchers.
Speaker 2:from the moment you get married, people are watching you to see if it's true and it shouldn't be. I feel like people should be allowed to choose for themselves what they want and how they want it to be. And for any reason, you are concerned about a family not having kids. How about you? Don't think it's just a woman, it could be the man to reproductive health issues and not gender exclusive. They're gender neutral. They affect both men and women as well. I think it also comes back to the kindness, not just kindness from spouses, but even kindness from the society, kindness from women to another woman. You know, when we're talking about marriage or even women who are not married, I see how people treat single women. They tend to elevate married women over single women.
Speaker 1:Or you know, and it shouldn't be that there should be kindness for people, because you never really know what the situation is at the heart of it Just wanted to put that I feel like this, this Pachikena topic that you just it just casually drops in there, deserve the full season to address the issues of kindness, woman to women, the issue of kindness, society, to couple the issue of kindness, you know all round. So, yeah, let's move on to our next question. Oh, I know.
Speaker 2:I know We'll have an episode dedicated to that.
Speaker 1:So that's a fiery speed. Let's address the second question. It says so. It's looking at the current political appointments and the inequalities. While we need to applaud this particular government for up in the ante, you know, increasing the ratio, there's still a lot. There's a huge margin of men to women in leadership. Why does society have such a low expectation of women, especially in leadership?
Speaker 3:Shema, if you'd like to kick us out, I was going to say I don't think society has a little expectation of women, because I don't have a low expectation of women, but then again, we are one of many. I don't think society has a little expectation of women. I think Nedia and I wrote Nicole wrote an article one time. I want to talk about women leadership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was about the fact that even Obesda Cousili came out and said she doesn't think women step up to the plate when it comes to taking, when it comes to taking on leadership. And I've seen it happen several times and I'll give you a good example. So at my workplace I do it around a fellowship then called the Green Academy. And with the Green Academy I had made it because I'm a feminist, so we are a feminist organization and I'm for women. So I made it a policy that for the fellowship we'll have a 60-40 ratio of candidates, participants, finalists, so that's going to be more women than men. And our first round of applications we did 70 applications. Majority of them were guides. Women barely applied.
Speaker 3:And at that point, and if women applied, I remember telling them go for it, go, as this person's known to you. If a lot of women, I told them go for it, go for it, go for it, go for it. Then when that happened, the guys who applied were way more than the ladies. But I now said you know what, since I'm doing the nominations and the review, I'm going to make it 50-50 for the next stage of the application process. I made it 50-50 for the next stage of the application for the process. It means I was 25 girls and 25 guys who were invited to apply At the end of the application process. We're going to reduce the final candidates to 20. Which meant that I was going to do it like a 12-8 ratio, something like that. I mean 12 ladies to eight guys. I struggled to find more women. I struggled, I struggled, I struggled and I've seen it happen. A lot of women.
Speaker 3:When we do application processes, I put out a call for vacancies. You see girls, they'll say the JD says they want this MSC, bsc, five years experience, ing experience, whatever, whatever experience. Women. We are looking at the JD and they are saying I need to have maybe 85-25% of what is on the JD, and the men have almost nothing. They have 20% of what is on the JD. Okay, you need a master's, I have a master's. Or you need a first degree, I have a master's degree, that's enough, and so they're all for it.
Speaker 3:But women hold themselves back sometimes they hold themselves out Automatically. Then the few women who eventually get to the top. Another problem is that they do not understand the role they play as women in leadership. To the extent that we do not understand. We are also voting for other women to pass through, and so we do not give ourselves the responsibility and the burden to know that I am here not for me alone, but I stand on the shoulders of women who have come before me and I know that women will stand on my shoulders and that is why women do this nonsense, that they do and that is why, in PDP or APC, do you need an important role for women is women's leader.
Speaker 1:Leader.
Speaker 3:And if you look at the ministerial list, you will see that even the role that was given to the woman was humanitarian.
Speaker 2:Yes, not only caring, taking the back to those divides. Yes, Exactly.
Speaker 3:It's because two things I don't know if society has low expectations of women or women have been showed up. We really have been shown up. Well, yes, there's a low expectation, that exists, no doubt. But I also think that a lot of times we are too afraid to take our place. We're too afraid to have conversations in this room and I tell young girls when I get to speak with them that look, when men are talking, sometimes they are saying nonsense and they are laughing at their nonsense, but they are still saying their nonsense.
Speaker 3:But we were thinking about what we are saying. Ok, I have to sound smart. I can't be stupid with them, be foolish with them. Really, if they are talking, women talk, whatever it is. We do because we want to put ourselves in that box. They have this expectation of us. So we have because they have this expectation of us. We don't want to meet the low expectation. And who sets that bar? Who wants expectation? What bar exists? It's not an extent. So we need to shatter those bars, break those feelings and just go ahead and do. Because we don't talk, we do not enter into those spaces and occupy those spaces because we feel those spaces are not good enough for us sometimes, and so they say, well, if you want it, why can't you be Like I'm not ready to speak about salaries or to discuss money in a meeting?
Speaker 3:I don't want to black out about the money. Yes, I am about the money, you know. Yes, it's a yes and no thing. To your question. The answer is not an outright yes, that yes, society has a lot of professional women, and this is why Need I say an outside know that society doesn't have a lot of professional women? It doesn't have a lot of professional women but, it's a, it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 3:It is a Expectational women and not existing, because women sometimes we've not taken our place. Maybe I mean I will not see those spaces to us, that's another us. So men and I got no senator is going to say, oh, I'm going to step down. A senator in my constituency to allow a woman Wrong for office. It's not gonna happen and we know that. So are we supporting each other enough to help all that women take those spaces?
Speaker 3:And the women who take those spaces, do they understand that they also have a responsibility to bring all that women through the door that they pass? That's the one, even having enough as women like, do you understand that are you are stood on women's shoulders. We stand on familiar and some good to show that and the work that she's done for women and representation she's giving women does it will go out. She can understand that young girls are looking up up to her and that women are standing on. She'll there as the woman who's is see you and everybody knows about her. Those are the things that do, are the things that we're not even being Accountable enough.
Speaker 3:So ourselves as women and ourselves, those hardy two questions Some women are just only happy to be in that space. Oh, I don't want to stay in my right, I don't want to stay my yes, I don't Don't have those difficult conversations. And we need to have those difficult conversations. We need to say look, it is fine for a woman to say she wants an old woman team. A man will have an old man team, are you?
Speaker 2:nobody question yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:I think they are not competent. Let them feel, which is why I did not. I wasn't so mad at Desiani because I think to myself a lot of men have been doing the stealing for a long time. What have you guys done to them? I'm not saying stealing is right. I'm saying that why are you not by different standard? Because she's a woman? What's wrong with you? You know there's no right or wrong. It's an open-ended question. We don't answer to it and it's okay for us to leave the question. But also okay, but also our responsibility, to understand that we all, over women, response a, a duty to do well. By whatever positions we find ourselves in, it's our Responsibility to do well by that, it's solely our responsibility to make sure that our girls can thrive and they can see us thrive. You know they should see us thrive, wow.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm just I'm listening to shaman and yet, on one hand, I I wish to be agreed that women have to do better in terms of, for example, if you find yourself in a place of power or in a decision making place, and you need to create more room for women who are competent to come in and have access to those spaces and those platforms. I know a few women who have created opportunities for younger women to come in and take spaces and just be able to to contribute, but I also know that the system is read also, to a large extent, against women.
Speaker 3:Yes, the system is reading against women.
Speaker 2:So, for example, let's start even from the bottom, which is education. When do you look at access to education and access to opportunities? You have more boys in school than you have girls. Yes, and if I can't go to school, where am I going to draw the knowledge and the technical insight from to be able to sit at the table in terms of governance, or, yes, I don't have that opportunity.
Speaker 1:Right, can we not interrupt you? We'll just ask the very important question, sheema. Sheema kind of mentioned it, but I was going to ask the question, which is these opportunities? Do you understand? Are we really the ones not taking it, and why? Why are we counting ourselves out? I just provided an answer. It starts with education. If I'm not educated, if I do not know all this, then how am I supposed to know that there's a door? I need to go through it. Or if there's no door, I could actually create one.
Speaker 2:So yes, we carry on and it talks about, even when we talk about education, both formal and informal forms of education.
Speaker 3:Yes, we have even skills building vocational training.
Speaker 2:Everybody doesn't have to be a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, but even vocational training. Now, and the thing about schools is that they also open a window in terms of insights, in terms of knowledge. Information helps to build your skills, to be able to determine what career path you want to take. If I don't have access to secondary education, how am I going to contribute to governance? Where do I know to find the opportunities? I will count myself out. Number two.
Speaker 2:It's also the fact that when we look at the networks and the opportunities that are available to men, or available to women, don't forget that our society basically tells women from the get-go that you should only think about nottering and caring. That's what you're designed for. So for those of us who break out of the mold the likes of homelier and some kutty like shema mentioned, who we stand on their shoulders today, it is because they realize, maybe by some, they probably had access to Knowledge and insights, maybe from their families that let them know that no, you cannot only be focused on nottering and caring. There's a lot outside of that. It's the reason why we're seeing more women in STEM.
Speaker 2:So, when we look at our and let's not forget as well that when we think of leadership, a lot of times we think of leadership as a man's responsibility or as a man's role. Leadership is often looked at from a masculine perspective, never from a family perspective, and so it takes a lot of reorientation of women to understand that even as a woman, you can lead. We all talk about women support. I remember when what was this woman who came out as a presidential candidate and she was the only one who voted for herself. I felt Sarah Dupont. I felt so hurt by that.
Speaker 2:But if it goes back to what shema was saying, you have a woman who is coming up to say I want to run for presidency, but no woman thinks she's competent enough to fill that position. Why? It goes back again to the expectations, the stereotypes that we talk about when we talk about leadership. What does it look like? A lot of times it doesn't align with the traditional roles placed on women. So when we have women who make it into those rooms and I really must commend shema for trying to ensure that at least women got, you know, applications in it starts with places like that. It starts from ensuring that girls are not giving up away in child marriages, but they have an opportunity to go to school.
Speaker 2:It starts from making sure that girls have access to quality education, just as boys have access to quality education, and the indicators actually get bad because from secondary level, you find that fewer women go into university.
Speaker 2:Oh yes especially to get married immediately, exactly. So we also have to look at those things as well, making sure that there is that opportunity. And the networks some of these networks that we talk about and I make goal to say, especially for some of these high-profile Women we see in our society they are closed networks. They are not open to the average young woman to have access to coming and be mentored and learn and observe. They are closed, kind of elitist. And that's also where the problem is how many, how many African women or African mentorship programs exist for black women to learn and feed from people who have gone ahead of us?
Speaker 2:So I would say is both ways, because representation matters. If I see women in positions of Decision making, leadership, governance, I'm inspired by that. But if I don't have the tools, if I don't even know where the door is, how do I begin to find myself to that place? So I think we also need to look at it, you know, in terms of orientation, and that's why I feel, even from primary school level or informal education, girls and boys should be thought about leadership. It should start from there. Leadership it's from the families, from the family Exactly.
Speaker 1:Can.
Speaker 3:I blow your minds. Can I blow your minds Please?
Speaker 2:go ahead.
Speaker 3:Talking about this vocational and training and skills, I think I want us to push the envelope a bit and I need us to ourselves accountable. You see, that thing we do when we want to support women and say when we train IDP women, when we train low income women, and we say we're going to train them soup making, stop making thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you, oh, thank you. That has gotta stop. That has Really. I met someone. I love her to death and she's so innovative. I said, oh, we're going to teach women how to make soup. I said come, let me tell you something. So all the women in the community want to buy soup and I will ask that when you go to the market, I think those women you buy soup from, is it really quite an issue? Do you really buy soup from those women? They say no, but that's what they have money to do. Now I said, look, keep on helping. And it's the funny thing, the mind-blowing thing, is that the girls they don't send to school, they end up being the ones who take care of them in old age. Because I want a boy to carry my legacy to this. Take of me. The boy is not going to remember your, take care of you, and that's the truth. The truth and the thing is again, it comes down to Culture. I'm lucky, my community, this doesn't happen. I was really by a very feminist father, to an extent.
Speaker 1:So I was.
Speaker 3:So I don't understand that reality that people say girls are not allowed to go to school. I don't understand that, but I know it does happen and I will say, and I will say that we owe ourselves the responsibility to even tell our aunts, our moms, everybody around. We're not doing this thing right. Like one of the girls child and so I said to people the reason why I'm so inspired to do a phd Is because I want my daughter to see that, look, this is doable.
Speaker 3:It's not because I have to go back in my 40s. I swear to god.
Speaker 3:I would like to very much have a baby, but I want my daughter to see that whatever she puts her mind to do, she can get it done. And today she's trying to be a lawyer and I'm excited about her Inspiration to be a lawyer because she wants to be like a mom, and so I'm inspired by that. But I also understand that to your point, kemi, about Representation matters. You need to see women doing this things and, yes, to say I can aspire. That's why we need this mentorship program. So the question is how do we start to mentor? Do other mentors? Is it the women in our church, the women in schools? What do we need to do? And if we're mentoring, for the love of god, can we stop making soups and beads and beads?
Speaker 2:yeah, because I have a more like financial needs is something that a lot of women need to learn. We have a lot of women in formal sector.
Speaker 3:And can't do that. People have leather goods. What kind of women design leather goods? Why are they only good for bead making? Why can't they do like lovely leather goods? Right, we are doing like codeing.
Speaker 1:We have things like coding Women can learn to code. You don't need to go to school to learn how to code.
Speaker 1:Computer language is computer language and we learn by everyone and then certainly one of the most outstanding universities in, I think, in India, was created in a rural village Built entirely by women for women. So the buildings in the place, the electricity, the roofing, every single project in that place was built by rural women. So if they sat around making beads and soaps, they would have been waiting for men to come build their house, to come build their school, to light it up. So to your point, uh, both shaman, shaman, kenny, honestly, we need to do better mentorship for me, everyone listening and charging each and every one of us to do what starts changing the narrative, from our homes, from our family dynamics, before we go out there in society and then at work, you know, have the conversations, open the door and hold it open for your fellow women Men also. Help us change the story, help us change the narrative. Yes, chemie.
Speaker 2:Let me so when you end on that note. I just I tied to what Shema said. I think we also need to strengthen, we need to cultivate first. We need to find it, because I feel like a lot of women have lost their protesting voice but, thankfully for this generation, a lot of women seem to be speaking up to say no. I would push to, to receive women coming out to run for even if it's local government chairman, councilor or house of rep Senate, and we need to encourage that. But it's also finding, cultivating and strengthening our protesting voice.
Speaker 2:And it's not just on the ballot, it's not just in terms of going to vote, it's not just when you find yourself in fancy offices, but even in the conversations we have with our friends, in the conversations we have with our families, in the conversations we have at the workplace. We need to strengthen our protesting voice, to be like when, at work, you see that you don't have a good presentation of women on the board or you don't have a good presentation of women in management. Who is talking about it? The HR person is in person, conditionally not to understand that or to understand that there is a flaw If the company is not gender responsive or gender sensitive or gender inclusive in its approaches. Those are conversations that need to be had. But it's also the fact that in these conversations we have and we must not be afraid to dismantle what we know doesn't serve work parties equal. Because even when I look at the ministerial list, some people might say, oh, yeah, it's good, but 17, almost 18% to about 80%, 82% for men it's not good enough. Yes, we have a national gender policy that says at least 35% of the of the target for women and even at that, it's still low With our population, with the number of women we have and number of women who are also competent, 35% is low.
Speaker 2:Where we have countries like Rwanda that are hitting over 60% in terms of parliamentary representation, I get it that, yes, gender parity is not the same as gender equality, but at least gender parity is starting point. If you have countries like Rwanda that are saying let's have where we have, we have a lot of women in parliament and the benefit of having more women in government as much as you have men, is that the issues that affect women are better presented. You cannot advocate for my own issues better than me. The person is yeah, you can. So you see that when we have more women in governance and we have more women in leadership, what happens is that there's a better representation of issues that concern women.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, you end up having men making decisions on behalf of women. We're seeing how that is going, even around the productive, health rights and all those kind of issues. We see how that is going. So I feel that, yes, we're not doing too well. If the World Economic Forum the gender gap index is ranking us 141 out of 146 when it comes to political empowerment, what the bottom? That's what that means.
Speaker 1:But I'm not surprised.
Speaker 2:It's also the way Nigeria is in terms of the systems and the structures, but I believe it is possible to change them. So when we have conversations and I also don't give into the argument that women are doing very good leaders we've seen the likes of Ellie Johnson-Serly, who turned Liberia's economy around. So it is possible in Nigerian heads, the World Trade Organization and a woman for that matter. So you cannot tell me that women don't make good leaders. We've seen women who have demonstrated that they are able to you know lead. But it takes me to part of the reason why I feel like some women don't even encourage women to lead or chair women on or support women.
Speaker 2:It's what we talked about earlier, maybe about adaptive preferences. You get accustomed to a certain kind of oppression and then you think it's normal, so you start to prefer it, and then, because you've adapted to it, you now prefer it. Then you sustain it because, well, that's what you know. That's what you know Exactly. So we need to do better in terms of I'm not jumping about the women representation, sorry. I see a lot of people on Twitter saying it's a good stride. One of the things President Tindu Goh talked about was gender equality. That was one of the things he spoke strongly during his inauguration. Right, Gender equality. But you can't have over 14 ministers and only six or seven of them are women. That, for me, it goes against what you're saying. I like the fact that they are young people, which is good, but, like Shema rightly mentioned, look at the portfolio given to women.
Speaker 1:The portfolios actually sound very compensatory, like the compensation is tokenistic, just being honest.
Speaker 2:Let's just put some women in there, let's not put them there. Stories in you know the nice suits with things you know.
Speaker 1:In Nigerian parlance. Let there be no saying we know, we know, we know what's there.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, we need to do better, even as we challenge the systems. But for women who find themselves I think it also goes to recognizing when you are also feeding the bias as an individual, when you're feeding the stereotypes, you know for us to switch the narrative and we can leverage our platforms to do that and what we'll get to a point where we see more representation of women, not just not as a form of tokenism, but basically in terms of competence, because we have a lot of competent women. We have a lot of really unsmart women, even the ones that we don't know their names, that are doing such great community level and if you give them a plan, want to lead, they'll be able to do that effectively.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, this has been so explosive. Honestly, I wish we could sit here and still just continue every opinions and you know, doing the back and forth, but unfortunately we have to consider our time, chichama.
Speaker 2:Emma, we're going to bring you back.
Speaker 3:I just can I just say something quickly to your point Talking about women and women's leadership, and I think it's much more than having women in office is having feminist women as well.
Speaker 3:And why do I say feminist women, because gender representation and feminist leadership is very different, because feminist leadership thinks about how does this affect men, how does this affect other groups. And I will say this because I remember a female senator coming up one day and saying she understands why he had a skills for my side to setting people. I'm more important than human beings. And she's there. She's there. She's representing feminist interests, women's interests or any sensible interests, with kind of voices, with her kind of opinions. So it's much more than having women in office is also making sure that women we have in office are women who are competent and considered of other women, and we definitely need women to pass through, because that's also very important for the work that we're doing and for the kind of change we want to see. That's why I put that out there, yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree with you. I agree with you, shemah, and that's why I talked about you know. We say parity is not the same as equality and equity, but sometimes people call this both Because you could have, you could have the numbers, but then they're not able to change anything. So they all have to get a hand in hand. So thank you for for ending us on that really strong one. Yeah, I hope women can, a lot of women listening to us can begin to do away with the fear and start to speak true to power, even in their various small spaces that they find themselves. So, shemah, we now have our questions. So our mystery question that we ask every guest and would just like you to tell us if your life was a book, a movie or a song, what would the title be? I didn't pay a poem. Yeah, that's fine, okay.
Speaker 3:It's a big. I will probably be that keep leaving the question because I'm leaving the question. If it was a poem it would be a very lengthy poem, but a poem like keep leaving the question, because there are too many questions that come up when you think you have the answer to something and that question comes up. So I think now I've been a title. If you leave the question, if you leave the question, now I've been the title of the poem. Maybe we'll make it a song, who knows? Even a book. Oh a book, oh a book. Again, Thank you for that one Nice one. That's good.
Speaker 2:All right, maybe over to you.
Speaker 1:Okay, ladies, it was really, really, really, really awesome, you know, sharing the moments with you. So, on that note, we would like to thank our guest today, Ms Shema Ibonide. It was really awesome having you here today. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing your wonderful entire experiences and the expertise with us, and we look forward to having you on more episodes. Yeah, as we progress.
Speaker 3:I'm not gonna lie, I enjoyed the conversation, so thank you for having me. Thank you very much for having me. You're welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. So on that note, camille, do you have a closing log X sound bite?
Speaker 2:whatever I tell you, I'd like to say to our audience before we close, I'll just say strengthen your protesting voice, Please do you know. Try, wherever you are, wherever you find yourself, try to change the narratives that are harmful.
Speaker 1:It will do us all a lot of good. Okay, thank you so much, camille, that was awesome. And then for me, I think two things stuck up for me the most today, the first one being the word kind, kindness. Guys, I'd like to encourage everyone to just be kind, be kind to your spouse, be kind to your partner, be kind to your family, be kind to just everyone's strangers, folks and friends are like just be kind. And then the second thing is for the women why do we do the things we do? It's important that we figure this, you know, answer these questions, figure these things out, so that we can strengthen our voices in this, you know, in our societies as we try to create a more gender neutral or gender equal community.
Speaker 1:So, on that note, we've come to the end of our episode. Next, we could be joined by a guest or two who keep their names, you know, still a mystery. We'll reveal that to you guys later to discuss the topic equality versus equity and why it's important to make this distinction. So, as usual, if you have any question or you want to share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please click on the link below to drop us a message, or you can write to us at genderishp at gmailcom. I'll take that again genderishp at gmailcom. Remember, in just an equitable world it's possible. We will play our part without discrimination or bias. Thank you, everyone, and see you next week. Bye, bye.