Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
5. Demystifying Gender Equality and Equity: A Conversation with Olaoluwa Abagun
For the Season 1 finale, we have Olaoluwa Abagun as our guest to discuss the difference between gender equality and gender equity. Ola is a feminist lawyer with a deep understanding of gender and international development. She shares insights on how these concepts are interrelated and the practical programs that make a difference. Our conversation highlights the significance of an equitable approach to achieving gender equality and the power of young voices in HIV advocacy. We also confront the uncomfortable societal structures that impede women's progress and explore ways to challenge these norms.
You can follow Ola on X @TheOlaAbagun
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone, the Genderish Crew is back. This is the podcast designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes, one conversation at a time. It's your girl, kemi, and I'm here with the usual suspect hey Nady. Hey Nady, how are you today? I'm doing great, kemi. How was your week? It was good, it was awesome. It was busy, busy, busy, but very good.
Speaker 2:And yours, busy, is good, mine was great, it was busy, but here it's the weekend, we can't complain, I know.
Speaker 1:Nady, what do we have on today's episode?
Speaker 2:Yes, guys, we're super excited to share perspectives with you guys again on another great session. So on today's episode, we will be comparing equality to equity. We'll be waning on their meanings, their similarities and differences, if any.
Speaker 1:So we implore you to stick around and have fun with us today, absolutely, and to do justice to the topic on equality versus equity. We do have a special guest in the house who is no stranger to this field and this discussion at all, and she'll be sharing with us from her insights, experience and lived realities on what equality versus equity means. But we're also going to be talking a bit more about feminizing. Well, I'm sure a lot of people are wondering Feminism, feminism, yes, yes, so wonderful. Olau Luwa Ababu is here with us in the gender studio to do justice to this topic, but before she comes on to introduce herself, we just also wanted to let you know that this is officially our last episode for season one, episode five.
Speaker 1:We did it, guys, I know, Okay, so now over to you, ola. Please welcome to genderish.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, kemiya and Nadie. So exciting to be on genderish. I've been looking forward to this for a while. So who's this? Yeah, just to introduce myself a little bit about myself. My name is Ola Ababu, but everyone calls me Ola. When I hear Olau Luwa, I know that I have done something very suspect. I am a lawyer. I've worked in the gender and international development space for the past eight years, I would say, and my passion lies at the intersection of nurturing young women's leadership, especially on issues that affect their lives and their communities, such as sexual and reproductive health and rights, gender-based violence and other gender issues that are super, super important today. I definitely identify as a feminist. I call myself an onapologetic feminist and great to be having this conversation around gender equality and equity, because it's really at the front border when we unpack all of the dynamics and motivations for the feminist movement.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice, you see we picked the right person that you actually need to address the story for us this week.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was just about to say guys, at this point, you guys need to give it up for us, you need to aid us. We pick the best of the best. Listening to this, listening to her her brief bio, aren't you excited to hear what she has to say? You know so? Absolutely no pressure, no pressure, no pressure.
Speaker 1:No, not at all Ola, no pressure.
Speaker 2:So, Ola, I'm so glad that you're here and it's someone with your expertise, you know, and your broad range of experiences that we are going to be sharing on this topic with. So welcome again Now, without further ado and wasting our time. I'm sure our listeners are like let's get on with it, so I'm just going to dive right in with our questions for the day. For the first question, Ola, is the concept of gender equality and gender equity the same? Do you think so, and why?
Speaker 3:As much as they are interrelated concepts and I mean very important concepts are that there is or there are a few differences between concepts of gender equality and gender equity, and I would try my best to come up with a working definition for both.
Speaker 2:But I was just going to pause to ask for a brief definition, if you will. But thank you on the right track, yeah it's definitely not a simplistic.
Speaker 3:They are both not simplistic concepts, so we would have more of a working definition. So gender equality, particularly for me, how I see gender equality in my work and as a feminist, is the state of equal access and enjoyment of rights and opportunities, mainly regardless of whatever gender we, an individual, identifies as, or their sex right. And as an intersectional feminist as well, I also tend to look at gender equality as leveling the field across all forms of oppression oppression related to class related, that is, economic class related to race, disability and ability being able to ensure that everyone can enjoy their rights and have access to opportunities to thrive, to be their best, regardless of their identity. So for me, that's that's what gender equality is. That is the goal, right, that is what would evade us. You know, have all this intervention, advocate for policy convene, you know, as activists, as young feminists and leaders. However, we know that gender equality is still a goal.
Speaker 3:There is a report that is released every year that tells us how many years we have to get to gender equality, especially in education, in health, and we know that it would take us. I think the last report said it was over 150 years. Yeah, that's true, yeah, and in that limbo, in that period where we are still aspiring towards gender equality, that's where equity comes in. So it comes to gender equality as the long term goal and gender equity as one of the strategies, one of the mediums that we use to cost on, that we utilize and leverage on to cost on as we advance towards the goal of gender equality.
Speaker 3:And what does equity mean? It simply means looking at the needs and the peculiarities of individuals, of human beings, especially the peculiarities that their gender causes them to be in. You know how opportunities are distributed, how power is distributed in our society, and then ensuring that we allocate resources and we allocate opportunities, considering those who are routinely left behind. So, for instance, if we look at our society, we do realize for the Nigerian society I pick Nigeria because obviously I was born and I grew up in Nigeria, I'm Nigerian, so I'm very familiar with that context the fact that you know, today Nigeria cannot boast of a single elected, democratically elected, female president or governor since the advent of, you know, democracy. And I mean elected, I'm not talking about them by accident.
Speaker 3:Exactly the situation with Nigeria.
Speaker 3:So when we know that it means that we have to take active steps, we can just sit down and keep you know, wishing for equality to happen in political leadership. We have to take certain steps for that to happen, and that might include quotas, as much as they are heavily contested. You know, the 30% policy that was introduced in President Goodluck Jonathan's regime, for instance, is an example of a gender equity strategy, right? It might look like, you know, it is skewed against men to say that a certain percentage of appointments should be allocated to women or women should be first considered for such positions. It may seem like it is skewed against men, and you know it's not. How would I put it? It's not focusing on people's capacity first, quite then focused, right.
Speaker 3:But if you realize that historically women have not really had access to such opportunities for political leadership, then it makes sense that to correct that unequal, that lack of balance, that imbalance, that balance, we have strategies that ensure that women are being actively considered, qualified women are being actively considered for opening such positions, and so that's just, you know, one example. I'm sure we'll speak about several others, but it just goes to show how interrelated both concepts are but different. So, in summary, we can refer to gender equality as the grand goal of balance, grand goal of equality right, grand goal of that human rights, the full human rights of all being realized regarding gender right. But yet there we need some intermediary strategies, and gender equity can describe some of those strategies that are often put to play to achieve gender equality.
Speaker 2:Wow, you've given us a lot to digest, you know, with your answer. You know, but if I may just lay down a bit to see if we fully grasped everything you were trying to put across to us, you said gender equality is the goal where everyone the same right are left of how they present. Well, right now we realize globally, and especially here in Africa, in Nigeria, that we fall fast short of that goal. It then makes sense that equity, gender equity is introduced to help cushion the effects of these discrepancies. Did I interpret that correctly? Yes, well summarized, okay, okay, so yeah, in essence, gender equality is the goal in the interim. Equity helps us as we get to work.
Speaker 1:It's a process to help it. Yeah, okay, kenny, yeah, and thank you, nelly and I. I think you summed it up nicely because every time, people, people sometimes think that there are no distinctions between both, but it's just the fact that equality is what we're aspiring for, is what we're working towards, and equity. I always see equity like the vehicle, the vehicle that takes us there. So, in other words, we cannot achieve equality if we don't address equity.
Speaker 3:That's what it simply means.
Speaker 1:And I like what Ola talked about, because I was also thinking about when she talked about intersectionalities, because that's also one of the ways in terms of just being able to address the intersections that come up. So, for example, some of the conversations we've had on the podcast had looked at, let's say, education for girls, and it's easy to put a school in a place right and say, okay, now you have access to a school, you have availability, I mean, of a school, so all of you now were not able to go to school. Now start going to school Now. On one hand, it looks like equality, right, you'll be able to get opportunities.
Speaker 1:But, what we forget is that there might be girls who can't go to school because they're disabled. Have we tried to address that disability gap so that maybe they could get some form of transportation that takes them to school right? Or they're girls who live so far away from the school or don't even have resources to get a uniform, to get a textbook. So this is just an example of what equality and equity looks like. So you've created a school, you've brought a school to the community, which is good. It's a free school, so both boys and girls can go great. But there are intersections that you have not addressed, you know, and that means that, while you've been able to achieve some form of equality, there are people who are still left behind, still marginalized, because there are intersections that is making it impossible for them to enjoy that school that you have put in place.
Speaker 1:Those are the ways.
Speaker 3:I try to interpret it.
Speaker 1:There's a common photo that goes around on social media to talk about equality and equity, like when Ola talked about leveling the playing field, which is what equity is. It's the one about three people standing on a box trying to look at what's a game in a field, and you see that the baby has the same box as the boy and the boy has the same box as the man, the grown adult. But when you look at it, you see that the adult man standing on that box can see the game, but the boy is not really able to see the game that well. The baby only even sees the wall. So that would be equality.
Speaker 1:They all have the same boxes, but equity comes into play in the next picture, where the baby is given a higher box. So the baby is able to see, the boy is also given a box that is able to see and at the end of the day, they are all able to watch the game clearly. But it didn't take the same process to get them to that point. So I was just trying to reiterate what Ola talked about. You know, equities about interventions or strategies that are responsive to the different needs that exist in our society, because that segues us very good, in a very good way, into the next question which we wanted to ask, ola.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you sorry? Before we get into the next question, this also draws me back to one of our earlier episodes about why women get such a bad rap. So Nga and Joshua brought up One of the things we identified was that it gets such a bad rap because the society is basically patriarchal, and then that also stems from a lot of other factors like religious beliefs, customs and traditions. So even before we look at markers such as or the girl might be disabled or the girl lives far away, what are the people who live close to this new free school but because of cultural norms, societal perspectives, they're not allowed to have access to that school?
Speaker 1:That is true, so that's also part of that. That also speaks to the fact that equality why we talk about it being responsive to the need, and you highlighted one of the key things that Amate Sen, who is one of the fathers of development, when he talks about capabilities and is the fact that, historically, we see, women tend to be marginalized or oppressed and not have access to the same opportunities that men have.
Speaker 1:So that's where the traditions come into play. So it's not only just in terms of resources, it's also in terms of the norms, in terms of the traditions, yeah right, so, ola, it's part of that as well, that's part of what hampers. Or, if we're trying to address equity, we must look at it from a 360 view. It's not only making things available, it's not only in the resources or opportunities, but it's also in addressing the traditions and the norms that hold people back. I definitely agree. I definitely agree. Okay. So, nadia, I'm glad you raised that, because now that takes us to the next question, which is, ola, from your line of work, what would, in terms of interventions now that we're saying it's about the strategies, it's about addressing the intersections what would gender equality and gender equity look like when we look at interventions to address them? And please, draw from your line of experience, from your work that you've done over the years.
Speaker 3:I think that's really interesting to look at it practically right, because they definitely feed into each other. I currently work, I co-lead Athena Network, a feminist collective that works at the intersection of HIV, srhr and gender equality, and we primarily work to ensure that the voices of young women and adolescent girls who are, by the way, the most vulnerable demographic to contracting HIV, especially on the African continent, the sub-Saharan Africa particularly. We work to ensure that their voices are reflected in policies.
Speaker 2:Such a sad statistic. I'm so sorry I had to. I didn't realise I was going to say that, oh yeah, I want to cloud the statistic. It just depressed me so much right now. You know, I know, I know no.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it makes sense, right, that those who are most affected have their voices at the centre of policy and intervention designed to address HIV and we stop treating it as a public health issue, plainly and simply, but a gender equality issue, because that is what Absolutely so we tend to. Our interventions tend to work and address young women and adolescent girls most especially, especially when it comes to transforming norms. You know, I really want to address that conversation that came up in the previous question. So we think that it's really important for young women and adolescent girls to have the skills, the information that are needed to advocate against discrimination, for instance, to advocate gender-based violence, which really intersects with HIV, new HIV infections for young women and adolescent girls, and all of the gender issues, comprehensive sexuality education as well, access to contraception all of those issues that really affect the well-being and health of young women and girls. So our flagship programme, what Girls Want, really puts the resources in the hands of young women across. We currently work across 10 countries in eastern and southern Africa and we work with young women directly, putting resources in their hands, connecting them to advocacy platforms at the national, regional and global level to really amplify their voices. So what they're doing is, first of all, they're advocating for their rights, they're advocating for more resources, for policies designed to consider their needs and their peculiar circumstances, their context as young women and girls. And they're also transforming norms at the grassroots, because they engage in peer education, awareness-raising, mobilising within their communities, transforming those norms, those discriminatory norms that continue to hold us back as a people. And so in doing that because at the root of gender inequality we have all of these power imbalances that you now believe about who women are in the society, who men are in the society, who can do what, who is allowed to have a say in conversations, who is allowed to be seen as leaders, for instance, and all of those dynamics so they're transforming such dynamics by being in that leadership position as advocates within their communities, as peer mobilisers, we're ensuring that they're positioning as role models even for other young women and adolescent girls.
Speaker 3:Right, and people would often say you can also train men to do that, you can also train young men to do that. Why are we focusing on young women? So that is the gender equity part of that intervention. Because we're saying we're not saying that young men cannot advocate or learn the voice, far from that. But we're saying that because, historically, young women and girls have been left out of these conversations. Their mics have been turned off. They do have voices.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite feminist writers around that to Roy. She says that there is no such thing as the voiceless Voiceless, thank you. Yeah, you only have deliberately silenced or the preferentially unheard. And we have identified young women and adolescent girls as some of the deliberately silenced and preferentially unheard. And through that program we're trying to reset that by putting the resources and platforms within the reach of young women and adolescent girls.
Speaker 3:So, while the end goal of our flagship program, what Girls Want is to advance gender equality, to dismantle discrimination and to ensure that young women and girls are not on the receiving end of the HIV burden, that's the end goal. But how we're going about it is by ensuring that young women and adolescent girls are at the center of driving that project, particularly within their communities. They have the platforms to speak, they have every space that they need to advocate and they're really at the driving seat of advocacy and programming. So that's how I can describe how the intervention really brings to play the interaction, I would call it, between gender equality and equity. It's not like we're choosing to focus on one above the other, but we're really using that equity approach as a strategy to advance gender equality within the realm of HIV, srhr and gender equality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, Ola, because as someone, you know that already. We've known way back in terms of someone who also works in the field of HIV. And a lot of times when we always hear but why are you not engaging boys, why are you so focused on the girls? Because even for us, the organization I work for, AHF we have what we call the Girls Act Program.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times we hear young men say but why are you just focusing on only girls? And what about the boys? But I always just also try to make them understand that historically, girls have been left behind. It's why you have more boys in school than girls, right?
Speaker 1:But if you look at the boarding of HIV, just like you highlighted earlier on, if we're looking at HIV with a gender lens, you realize that in terms of numbers, we have about 4,000 new infections every week amongst girls 10 to 24, young women and girls 10 to 24. That's okay, yeah, and out of that 4,000 plus, over 3,000 comes from sub-Saharan Africa. So girls are twice more likely to get infected than their male counterparts. So already there's an inequality there. But it's because of the issues you've highlighted that the roots in gender inequality, and it also gives a reason why interventions should be more focused to us ensuring that we turn off the tap of infection rates amongst that group, and it's a practical example of why interventions should also use equity because it's not saying we don't want boys to get all the Boys are getting information, but I agree that, yes, we also need to educate boys as we educate girls, especially around the norms and the harmful tradition.
Speaker 1:But because girls do not have the space most times to use their voices or to be in the rooms where conversations are hard, you need to empower girls, you need to give them the tools so that they're able to do that, and I know there are people who have. Also, I know people who don't like it when you say, when they say we're focusing on women and girls. People have a challenge with people who are quick to say what about the boys? Because it's A lot of people argue that that's also patriarchy in disguise, because you're saying we're trying to focus to get girls come up the same ladder opportunities, access, like their male counterparts and you're shooting that down indirectly by saying what about the boys? Right, In terms of interventions, how about you?
Speaker 1:You get girls to the level that boys are and then together we can now move forward. Of course, I know that not every boy has opportunities and access, but if you want to put it side by side, you'll find out that girls tend to be left behind so great work that Athena is doing in terms of just making sure that we can level the playing field for girls and boys. For me, I really do want us to turn off the tap on new infections in young women and girls. It's one of the things that keeps me up at night. There's no reason why we should be having those infection rates.
Speaker 2:It's crazy and I'm really glad that you know Kemi, both you and Ola. Honestly, ola, thank you for you know, kind of putting your face to these words. I'm glad that the both of you are doing this work in this space. A lot of times when people hear gender equality, gender equity, when they're placed side by side, the first thing that most people do is to go oh no, these people have come again. Why are you guys throwing all these mighty words around? That's why the traditional concept of family is being eroded. That's why the traditional concepts of genders are being eroded.
Speaker 2:But, you know, they make the argument, they make the discussion so paltry, so elementary, that it takes away from what these things were designed to achieve. So I'm saying this to say that we're having this conversation so that we focus on attention from these elementary conversations, like men and women are not built the same two important factors, and I'm glad that you guys are putting numbers and statistics to these things. How can Africa, how can Nigeria, how can these economies that are fledgling they are comatose economies that are struggling to stand, you know be talking about girl children, little girls, what even up to, who are just stepping into womanhood, you know, having the highest number of infections for HIV.
Speaker 3:How it is sad, it is sad.
Speaker 2:So it's when it's because we're focusing on majoring. We're focusing on majoring on the minors and minors minoring on the majors. You know, by fighting these concepts, because if we accept this, that there is a need for gender equality and actually listen to what the message we're trying to pass, then we can, you know, we can, we can close these gaps, we can, we can shut down these numbers. You know, I believe having conversations like this, putting a human face to it, you know, announcing this, that giving real life examples will make people more open to listening to this conversation, you know, make them more open to taking part in these discussions and the interventions, because, really, if little girls are getting infected at this rate, it could be anybody's child, it could be anybody's child.
Speaker 1:It also makes it impossible to end HIV or AIDS by 2030, like we keep saying, exactly.
Speaker 2:So monies that are struggling economies are supposed to be channeling towards, you know, bigger projects, development, infrastructure, but we're funneling. We'll be funneling everything towards gender-based violence, towards fighting HIV AIDS, towards keeping people alive in 2023. So it's important that. I'm sorry that I'm sounding this this agitated and passionate, but honestly, you know things, numbers like this. They're worrisome, you know. Everyone should just wake up and do something. You know, let's have, let's open up channels of conversation for this and everyone should just get involved, yeah, so.
Speaker 3:I you definitely carry your passion. Thank you so much. I definitely carry that passion. Yeah, I definitely do.
Speaker 2:It's worrisome.
Speaker 1:But you know, nettie is also because if a lot of people don't know what the numbers are, they don't know because people don't know. When they don't know the numbers, then they don't know why we feel passionate about some of these discussions and topics. Right and number two, people don't know how far reaching reaching the negative implications of gender inequality is. People think it just stops at not going to the kitchen to cook. You get it. I have nothing against cooking, by the way, but I'm just saying people think it just stops at that. People think it stops at women having sexual oppositions. That's not it.
Speaker 2:Why should a woman have a woman?
Speaker 1:Why should women have sexual implications on people's well-being, people's lives, people's health, people's ability to thrive in terms of wholesomeness and the overall well-being? Yeah, but people don't know that.
Speaker 2:I don't realize it. Honestly, guys, I'm just a juncture. I'm going to beg you, please share these conversations, like share these episodes. Get everyone in your family, in your office, in your church, in the mosque, like whatever you believe in, get these conversations going. We all need to hear the statistics, these numbers, because it could be any of us, it could be our children, it could be our relatives, so yeah. So that leads us into our third question, ola. Where do you think I'm so glad you said you're a feminist, and unapologetic feminist? So where do you think feminism fits into all this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think feminism is at the heart of it all, because our one struggle as feminists you know whatever kind of feminists you identify as I don't want us to go into the conundrum of feminists yes, for those who identify as African feminists, those who are more intersectional side, those who identify as Marxists. You know there's a lot of. You know brands and shades feminism. One thing we can agree, one thing that we all agree on, regardless of our brand of feminism, is that we want everyone to be able to thrive. We want everyone to be able to access opportunities, regardless of whatever gender they identify as or whatever sex they are, you know, just being able to level the playing field for generations unborn to be able to enjoy that true equality right. So that's where feminism comes in, and I think it's important for us, as much as we say that gender equity is a strategy that we use to advance and get to the goal of gender equality, we should be very, very careful not to get sucked in, sucked into these preliminary strategies, these intermediary interventions to level the playing field, such that we do not even go deeper to challenge the norms at the very root. You know, some feminist researchers and theorists refer to these norms as deep structures, right, deep structures are within our societies that continue to hold women and girls back. In some societies today, in some communities today, people still think that when women are menstruating or when girls are menstruating, they shouldn't go into sexing places right, they shouldn't hook males, they shouldn't be relegated to some corner right. We still have that barrage. It's pretty much a lie and these things thrive, based on these norms at the very root of our societies, and I think feminism is very political in that sense. So we try as much as possible, whether at the dinner table in our families, or at the level of advocating with our government, or at the UN or wherever, whatever spaces we find ourselves, we try to question some of these norms like oh men, to sit and be quiet, well, boys can run all over the place, boys will be boys. All those kind of conversations, all those kind of norms are at the root of gender inequality and as feminists, it's our preserve, you know, to ensure that we as a society continue to question these norms.
Speaker 3:So our eyes are still on gender equality as a human right, as a political issue that we need to put up, because I see that some governments are pretty much satisfied with some of these gender equity interventions. As much as they can, they should be praised and they should be applauded for doing some of these things. So, for instance, some interventions that try to get more girls in school, for instance. But we can't afford to stop there, because if we put in these strategies and we're not at the same time challenging the root causes of gender inequality, then we will be stuck at the strategy. So it's almost like we would keep on being within the journey as opposed to the destination being inside. So over the past few years, with the SDGs and a lot of other interventions, we have Generation Equality Forum. There's been a lot of buzz around advancing, you know, gender equality, but we still see that every year, the Global Gender Gap reports that I mentioned we still see that every year, even more years are added to the number of years that we have to fight gender equality.
Speaker 3:So there's a disconnect right Between effort and outcome. There's clearly a disconnect, and that's where feminism comes in for us to keep our eyes on people, for us to continue to move wear a movement, so move, we shout for us to continue to make that meaningful and strategic noise and to say you know, we do not want any of these norms, they don't serve us and we must continue to uproot them. So I think that's where feminism, you know, comes in, as that watchdog is a very, very weird term, but for lack of a better concept for being that watchdog for to guard the space, to guard our conversations, to guard our behaviors and say you know, let's keep our eyes on gender equality, that is the goal.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you because you just distilled it down. I believe this is clear for everyone. It's beyond whatever school of thought you come from, whatever foundation you believe in, whatever sect, it's eye on the ball, because the more we argue this semantics, the more we widen the gap and it defeats the purpose of what the goals, the visions have been set to meet. Honestly, thank you. Thank you for shedding light on this, can we?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, nelly, just listening to Ola and the conversations we've had, and it's true, if we only scratch the surface, then we would not achieve the goal that we have in mind, because people tend to push back against feminism as well, because they. But then we also know that change is never easy and you get a lot of flak if you're trying to destabilize the status quo or challenge the norms or dismantle the harmful norms, the stereotypes that are so negative. All I like when you said feminism serves as a watchdog, because it's the same when we talk about civil society being the watchdog in development to ensure accountability. Right, I feel like every movement or every cycle in development and society actually does need a watchdog.
Speaker 1:I think that's what feminism does. It's basically saying let's not focus on the. We call them the low hanging fruits. They are good, but we need to look to the heart of the matter. And the heart of the matter lies deeply in what is ingrained in the societies, in the cultures, in the traditions that works against women and girls, right from when girls are born, and we need to challenge that.
Speaker 1:And when I think of feminism, for me it's a movement that just sets out to advocate for women's rights, especially not just rights on the home front, but looking at social, political, legal, economic rights, and that's part of what it looks at. So I'm very glad when you stress the fact that the interventions are good. The interventions we're seeing in terms of accessibility, availability, they're good, but we must not forget the heart of the matter, and that means also that when we do interventions, we need to ensure that those interventions tackle the root causes of these inequalities, of these inequities, the intersections that we see, communities, the belief system that upholds these inequalities that we see. We must challenge them and that's the hardest part. That's the hardest part of the job. That's the hardest part, but we cannot, we can't turn away from it, because it's feminism that has brought the fact that women can vote.
Speaker 1:When we talk about the suffrage yeah, the women's suffrage it was through feminism. If we didn't have feminism in the early 1900s, we wouldn't have women voting today. We would not. So I think things would enjoy contraception.
Speaker 1:Everything. Yeah, it's because of feminism. I think more people need to study more about what feminism is to really understand how to also apply it and use it in the different spaces that they find themselves just so that we can continue to move forward.
Speaker 1:I really like in this conversation the only thing for me is you know, conversations like this also unearths the fact that, while we've done so much, there's still a lot more to be done. So much to be done, yes, because the gender gap, the indexes, continue to tell us that we need to dig a bit deeper, we need to really confront the realities and inequalities that we see. And that brings us to our final question on this topic, ola, and that is should the focus be on? I think you've answered this a bit, yes, but maybe you might expand it. Yeah, you might just expand it a bit more for us, and that would be should the focus be on equality or equity, or both, and why?
Speaker 3:You see, that's a very, very important question to unpack, because I do see, I even see a lot of feminists abandoning the concept gender equality and replacing it with gender equity, for different reasons. For some people have interacted with they seem to think that stakeholders, particularly government stakeholders, love the concept equal equity as opposed to equality. So you know how and I'm so glad that you've already done an episode on it, like why feminism and gender equality often gets a bad rap. So some people seem to see equality, as you know, sameness right To. If you talk about gender equality, they automatically say oh, are you saying that people are the same regardless of their gender? Are you saying men and women are the same? You know, so people tend to like, prefer equity. It's almost like a softer, more endearing concept. While I understand that and I understand sometimes, you know speaking the language that your stakeholders must understand and must relate to, we also must understand that this has political consequences. Right, you know equity, while it's the interventions that advance equity, while they're great sometimes, you know stakeholders sometimes that do not have the best intentions for the feminist movement and for gender equality tend to use that, as you know, it's a tool to keep the movement silent. So you even see some conservatives who say you know, I support gender equity, I do not support gender equality, and that creates a lot of confusion, because the sole idea of gender equity is to advance equality. So when you say I believe in equity, I believe in, you know, ensuring that we meet the needs that girls have. You know, more girls are in school. But I don't believe in gender equality. They say things like it challenges the traditional notion of family. You know women at the head, you know it should remain that way, but I think women should have access to improvement. It's given a feminist bot or women's rights bot. So that's one thing that I think we should keep our eyes on.
Speaker 3:We see less and less use of the concept of gender equality, and I think it is very political, I think it is, you know, it's at the heart of our movement and what we believe in, to keep saying that our goal is gender equality. Right, so that we don't, you know, begin to play to the gimmicks and the games that certain opposition forces have. You know they've adopted the language of the movement. They've, in quote, infiltrated the movement as well, and sometimes when people advance that gender equity sort of statement. It's because they want to pick and choose issues. So, for instance, some people want to talk about girls' education, but they don't believe that girls should have access to comprehensive sexuality and it's not holistic that way. It makes us address different issues on different days. We are not then advocating for the wholesome rights of women and girls when we go down that road.
Speaker 3:So, bottom line, I think that we should keep emphasizing that our focus is gender equality. That is the goal, and if we've not achieved that, we've not achieved progress. No matter how many equity strategies and interventions are successful, at the end of the day, if they don't challenge those root causes of inequality and they don't level the playing field in terms of norms, in terms of belief systems, we're really. We're really, you know, taking 10 steps forward and 20 backwards. So, of course, gender equity strategies just wrap up their grade. We should encourage as much as possible, we should embrace it. However, we should not stop there and we should politically say that gender equality is our goal as feminists. That is the goal. There's no ifs, no buts. Gender equality is the goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the examples that I gave, because it struck me especially when we talk about when, should get the example of people, say, access to education for girls, but then they don't want you to create opportunities for young people to learn about comparison sexuality education. So the pick and choose bit. It just reminded me also around the conversations of child marriage, where some people argue for child marriage but then argue against sexual reproductive health rights and services for young people. So how do you argue, on one hand, that it's okay for young girls to be married off, but then, on the other hand, you're saying it's not right to give sexual reproductive health services and information to young girls? So it's the whole pick and choose thing.
Speaker 1:But then it also reminded me of the drama that surrounded the Niger gender equality bill. That was being pushed for a while and then it was going back out because they did not like the term equality. They threw it out because they did not like the term equality and some of the clauses in it. So it's just, and the good thing is that these are all practical examples of how it hurts us.
Speaker 1:Yes, equality is the goal, but you also must address all the other issues, the litigations, because the sameness, or the argument that if you say equality, you're saying that women want to be like men or men want to be like women, or whatever that is, but then it's also a way of stifling the opportunity to advance, whether it's equality or equity. I agree with Ola when she talks about the fact that some people want to focus on equity but they don't want to focus on equality, and if we continue to do that, how then are we going to achieve the equality that we're talking about? So it has to go hand in hand. They must go hand in hand.
Speaker 2:It's not one or the other, they have to go hand in hand and as Ola was speaking, so a concept kept popping into my mind. For instance, I'll use a scenario. So would any one of us want a half-baked surgeon to operate on them? No, so the longer we continue, the more we continue to pick and choose. That's the society we inadvertently create Half-baked everyone. And that's more dangerous than having someone who is not, who doesn't know anything, who is an illiterate on a concept or a topic, or even illiterate as it concerns education. So the more we pick and choose, the more we look at the bill or we don't like we're fighting against the words, the more we create horrible and unless than palatine situations for us as the people. So if you're sending the children the girl child to school and then you're picking and choosing subjects, I think you're creating a more dangerous individual. You're creating a horrible child. It's a horrible person for the girl.
Speaker 3:That's the outcome when people focus on equity interventions that are not challenging these root causes To get more girls to school, but don't address every other thing that stops them from achieving their full potential even after going to school. You see, exactly, I totally agree with that perspective, nadi.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's true. And the reason why we still have a lot of these harmful they're not just stereotypes but even practices. It's the reason why we still have a lot of them in play or at play today in our society. But then again, these are conversations that we must continue to have. So, nadi, I like that perspective as well that you bring into it, because you can't say, well, we'll just open a window, just a small, so you get in, but just, you never get the full knowledge, the full information. But part of the reason is also because when you fully equip someone holistically, you also raise people who can confront the system of injustice and unfairness and challenge it. And we all know that most times that the system as it stands doesn't like to be challenged, doesn't like to be pushed back against. But resist, we must, and move on, we will.
Speaker 2:Well, honestly, I'm so glad that we're addressing this topic and it's someone of Ola's experience with speaking to us on this because even myself, who felt I was quite enlightened or educated on this concept, I still learned a lot. This was an opportunity for me to you know my eyes, my perspectives were further broadened on this. Suddenly it had a human face, you know. Suddenly it became more personal for me and I believe the more we would put these conversations out there, the more people begin to understand that, beyond the caring words, beyond the semantics and there's something Ola said that is really important when she said take hold us.
Speaker 2:A lot of people masquerade in these sectors, in these departments, pretending they understand these interventions. They pick and choose and then they make a mess of everything and that's why we have so many, so many noise makers, you know, everywhere causing problems for the real actors, for the real people who are addressing these situations realistically and holistically. So I'm so glad that we're having this, this conversation, yeah, so I guess at this juncture, which we can, we do you have anything for that to add?
Speaker 1:Oh, nothing, nothing, it's just been, it's been, it's been really good just having this discussion, and my hope is just that a lot of people take away from it something very tangible in terms of being particularly women, if I must say, but also men who, who are allies, men who who champion equality and equity using different means and different platforms. It's just, and for those who are not, who maybe before now had no clarity on what some of these concepts meant, for them to be able to walk away from this episode with a determination to right the wrongs and push the needle further a bit, even if even if it's uncomfortable, because these are uncomfortable conversations to have, especially in the society. You know comfortable conversations to have in the family, but they are conversations that we must have. And also, I like that Ola spoke to people who do interventions, so those are parts in the development space or in our little corners doing one intervention or the other.
Speaker 1:I feel like, if you're going to be addressing any developmental issue, whether it's on health, whether it's on gender, it is important that you address the community component of it as well. Don't just live on on making resources available. Get communities to challenge what they believe. Why do they believe what they believe and, you know, just opening their eyes to see the ways that a wrong belief system can actually be changed for the better of everyone in the community. Because then it's bottom up really at the end of the day. Not sitting in fancy offices, all of those things are good, but it's bottom up. The work really is more grassroots than it is anything else.
Speaker 2:So, guys, this has been great. Well, we're almost out of time, so let's quickly go to a surprise for the evening. So, ola, I'm always excited to ask this question. So, if you like was a book or a movie or a poem, what will the title be and why? Wow, we know that was, was, was heavy.
Speaker 1:It was, it was as well to.
Speaker 3:I mean, there are so many options I have to choose from because they tell different parts and different sections of my life. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:Right, try, try, try. This is the form part.
Speaker 3:So there's this book by Sarah Ahmed. I know, I know that your viewers, or your listeners rather, would say that I'm too much of a feminist, but there's a. There's a book by Sarah Ahmed where she talks about a feminist life. I think that's the the title of the book a feminist life she talks. There's a particular. It's leaving a feminist life.
Speaker 3:Yes, the title is leaving a feminist life, and the books about how feminism, beyond advocacy, beyond all more engagement you have as a feminist, feminism is also homework. You know, the one you take to your family, self assigned homework, the one you take when you have that conversation or drinks with your friends, the one everywhere you go, the homework you take everywhere you go and you talk about when you get home. Put your feminism at the door right. But leaving a feminist life really shows feminism beyond a political concept, beyond being an ideology. It's something that should reflect in how you live your life, how you interact with your colleagues, how you treat the values you live by and all. It's a really special book for me and if I had to name, like if I had to pull a title to my life, I probably would say Living a Feminist Life. Wow.
Speaker 1:It's very nice and that's also an encouragement for people to go and read the book as well, especially if you're passionate about conversations around gender equality, equity, feminism, the whole nine years. Please go read it.
Speaker 2:Yes, saramed is amazing, she's the best, also for the people who didn't understand or who've been very afraid of the concept of feminism. I think Ola actually put a lovely human face to that concept today. So if you have been afraid of even hearing the word, I believe she's given a good report of it today. So I think this would be a good place to start asking questions. You know, exploring, reading up on the concept of feminism and why you should be a feminist.
Speaker 1:OK, and now we have on that lovely note that Nelly just give us a homework and Ola gives us a homework too. On that note, we have come to the end of today's episode, which happens to be our last episode for season one, and I think it was a good way to actually end the episode. Thank you so much, ola, for joining us today to just talk about this really crucial topic and how it applies to all of us and what we can do in our little corners to take the movement forward. And just to let you all know that you can please send an email to us on genderishpgmailcom, and that's if you want to share your experience with negative stereotypes, or you just want to share your experience or your thoughts regarding today's discussion, or if you have a question for us that you'd like for us to respond to. We want to hear from you, so please go ahead and send us an email at genderishp genderishpgmailcom. And then you can also follow us on social media on Instagram, that would be genderishp.
Speaker 1:On X, it will be genderishp as well. Don't forget to like, to subscribe, to share, to follow. Please follow us on X. Follow us on Instagram. We want to hear from you and want to hear your thoughts because, at the end of the day, we're all trying to make this world a better place for everyone. And do not forget that a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part, without bias or discrimination. And from me, your girl Kemi, signing out, bye, guys.