Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
6. Why Can't Men Cry? - Part 1
We are back!!! Happy New Year!
Have you ever witnessed the struggle in a man's eyes as he fights back tears, society's harsh whisper telling him that real men don't cry? In this two-part discussion, we are joined by special guests Obi Onyeigwe (MenEngage Alliance) and Kaycee Uyanwa (Visual Artist) to unpack stereotypes and masculinity.
Drawn from personal stories, reflections, and lessons from the field, they explore the impact of harmful gender norms, whether there is a need to redefine masculinity, and the difference between positive and toxic masculinity. We discuss the transformative effect of positive masculinity on society, stressing the role of men in nurturing environments and challenging the toxic traits that lead to aggression and disconnection.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hi everyone. Welcome again, it's me too. Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is the Gender Rich Podcast show design to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time. It's a usual subject. My name is Nnedi and we have with us the the beautiful.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, welcome to season two of Gender-ish.
Speaker 2:So, on this first episode. Our topic is why can't men cry? Now, it depends on how you read that question, but today we are joined with two men who know a thing or two about issues around gender discussions, masculinity, manhood and we will be talking about things like what does manhood or masculinity mean and what are some of the gender stereotypes that you know men see from their perspective. Are they harmful or are they beneficial? We'll also be looking at positive masculinity versus toxic masculinity. Is there anything such as those, and what can we do as a society to engage men and boys when it comes to changing the narrative so that it is beneficial for all of us? This is a conversation you do not want to miss, especially caring for men themselves right Nnedi.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, today we're going to Kari and I will be taking the vaccine, because we have with us two gentlemen who know much more than we do about what it means to be a man and what drives their emotions, their actions, their beliefs. So, yes, without what they do, I think it's time to let them introduce themselves to our listeners. So, guys, please take it away. Obi KC, any of you could start.
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you so much, Nnedi, and thank you, kemi, for welcoming me and also the opportunity to speak with Genderism Podcast. My name is Obi Onigwe. I am based in Abuja. I work with Alain Jigo, called Men Engaged Alliance. He's a network organization of having members from six geos of Nigeria and what we do we actually engage men and boys to have a transformative you know, positive behavior. I'm very, very glad that we're talking about manhood and masculinity today, and what we basically do in when we engage is transforming negative masculinity to a positive or healthy or good one. We also engage in advocacy, you know, in issues that have to do with female genital multidation and I mean a whole lot of other issues that has to do with gender based violence against women and girls. You know, in our society we are different tribes, but I think for now this is what I could just say, that for here, I mean, and also for now this is what I can just say. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Once again, Thank you, obi All right, thank you.
Speaker 4:My name is Casey Weyongwa. Thank you, neddy and Kevin, for having me in your genderish podcast today. I'm a visual artist. I'm a visual artist. Basically, my works are centered about Africa. So I love projecting the beauty of our culture, because in Africa we have different, we have diverse and unique cultures that speak value and volume. And I'm so passionate about my works because I see that in the continent of the world, africa, and our culture still has this value that we tend to protect, to pass down to generations after us.
Speaker 4:So I see it, I use my art as this tool right to preserve what we have in Africa and also to portray the beauty of our cultures. You know, in the days, whenever we talk about the cultures of Africa, we see it in the primitive way, yes, although our cultures can be driven from, you know, parking the days. But then these are who we, these are what makes us who we are. This portrays the beauty of who we are as the black people. So we have our unique culture that belongs to us and I've come to realize through the, by works in life, I've come to realize that people see you the best way you can present yourself. So when you, when you, when you present yourself with a low esteem, people see as an intimate person. But then when you add some value in presenting yourself, people also appreciate you with the value you're giving yourself. So it's all about you. So what I basically do with my artists to portray the beauty of the African culture, and also I'm a member of the Tabita Empowerment Center. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Wow, we have. I like the fact that we bring an artist, a visual artist, and then we bring an advocate.
Speaker 1:That's such a nice mix.
Speaker 2:So being able to highlight the different aspects of, of conversations, of culture and the vision there, there that varies, I think that's that's a really good one. So, without wasting much time, let's go into first question for the day. Like I said, our topic is why can't men cry? And our first question really is what does manhood or masculinity mean? So, or be maybe one of the status of this, what does, when people say manhood or the same masculinity, what does it mean to you?
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. It's a very good conversation this afternoon. I must say I'm talking about manhood and also masculinity. You know, when we talk about manhood, because I'm going to speak from the context of the society I am into or where I actually operate, and when we talk about manhood, you know we can say this is a state of being a man, I am a man that expresses, you know, the condition of being a man, and that is just the state of who I am or who someone else is. But deeper than that, when we talk about manhood, we're also, you know, looking at a man who is matured, or manhood means maturity. You know, someone being able to express himself, somebody who, who is able to, you know, show our respect to every corner of people you know within the society and I'm talking about women, girls and everybody within the community or the society that actually speaks of manhood in the context of, you know, of who we are as a society and what actually that also means to me as an individual, and I mean having worked with, you know, women and girls, you know for a lot of years, and I think this is just what it means to me, though somehow it could mean a different thing to other people, but this is actually what manhood means.
Speaker 3:There could be other expressions, you know, which other people might just say. I mean, this is what it takes to them, and also also relating it to masculinity. You know, when we talk about masculinity, we have different types of masculinity, although I think we also get to that, you know, masculinity also is, is. Is is the state of being a man, a male, you know. In that case, now it also tells us more about attitude of that man and behavior of that man. I mean, is it such behaviors that promote good and healthy rights of women and girls within the society, or is it one that also antagonistic, you know, to issues about women and girls within the society? So, whichever way you look at it, unfortunately you know the way we've looked at masculinity lately, you know, could note something very, very negative about that. I mean, there's not much argument to that, because we have seen men who are beating women and girls, you know, also raping girls and all doing also a negative thing. So when you hear the word masculinity, you know we imagine somebody who is very, very toxic, you know, to women, to girls and also to other members of the society. So masculinity actually has its own positive side. It also depends on the character and attitude of the person, who actually is a male or who is actually a man. And further to this, there are also implications to whether you have a positive one or the negative one.
Speaker 3:But I think my consign here is that we you know from where I'm coming from what we do is, you know, promoting positive masculinity. You know engaging boys, engaging men to be, you know, good examples. You know to boys who are growing up within the family circle, who also show respect. You know to girls and women as they are growing up. You know who. Also, you know give what it's right and do away with. You know boyhood preference and all those kind of things. So this is in simple terms. You know what masculinity is all about to me. In case there are other additions, I will do this later.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, obiso. When you talked about masculinity and you know what oftentimes society sees it as, as well as what masculinity really should be it made me think about hegemonic forms of masculinity which is prevalent in our society. But then I think we'll talk more about that when we go into the bit about positive and toxic masculinity which you raised in your submission. But I wanna just go to Casey Casey, what does manhood or masculinity mean to you.
Speaker 4:Okay, thank you so much for having us again in your program. I'm happy to discuss this topic with you. You know, to me, coming from my background and environment, I can say that manhood is the state or period of being a man rather than a child, and I can say that manhood is structured by the society we find ourselves in. Manhood is something that is officially painted by our environment, expecting us to live up to an unexpected, you know, behavior and courage. It's a period in a man's life where he shows some qualities that are expected in a man, such as strength and courage. So, talking about masculinity, I think masculinity is social expectations of being a man. What do society expect you to become as a man? This consists of the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. So I would like to say that masculinity or manhood, is always, you know, defined by the society where a boy is born into. Masculinity is majorly constructed and defined by our societies, by our histories, by politics. So men, views of manhood are shaped by their upbringing and their social environment. That is from where they grew up. They tend to tell them that, ok, as a man, we are about to behave this way. We are about to show strength, not weakness. So all these forms and understanding the growing boy to make it understand OK, as a man, this is the way I see things. I don't have to show weakness in any case. So that is it. So in Africa, some threats is associated with masculinity, which includes ambition, analytical reasoning, competitiveness, fearlessness, leadership, control and so on.
Speaker 4:So from my own view, I can say masculinity and manhood is that period of time. So a young boy is expected to grow into a man. It's a period in a man's life where he shows some qualities that are expected in a man, such as strength, courage and these values from society, one society to another. So I like that. I will be talked about.
Speaker 4:It's the attitude of a man. That's masculinity, attitude of a man. So you see, when you now find yourself living in line with what society has painted, the picture of the society has painted for you as a man, it builds in you this attitude that you possess to display. When you display this attitude, it gives you this satisfaction that oh yeah, I'm now a man, because you knew there was a time you used to struggle to behave in such manner. Probably when you are graying off so to come up to that stage of masculinity. It makes you understand that, ok, you have to exhibit these threats, you have to show off these attitudes, you have to appear in like manner because you want to be called a man. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, obi and Kisi. There's so much to unpack, to unpack. Yeah, yes, you guys were very detailed, honestly, and we appreciate that. In fact, I think you guys already begun to chip away. You've begun to answer the question.
Speaker 1:The topic for the day why can't men cry? You know Obi said talks about positive masculinity. He talks about how manhood and masculinity should be, but also kind of mentioned a bit on, you know, touch the beach on the front lines. You know that made an ultimately distinct of affairs and then I like that Kisi, you know, kind of painted the picture for us as an artist that he is about, you know, the process of transition from boyhood into manhood, you know, and how the society plays or dictates what masculinity and the expectations of masculinity are, you know. So it's beautiful the way you guys have, you know, led us into your world. Now, leaning onto that, I'd like to ask if you guys think that this masculinity, you know, or manhood, is being stifled or attacked in today's society. What do you guys think? I'd like Kisi, okay, or Obi. We can start off again, since Kisi was last picked up. You know what do you think masculinity is being stifled or attacked in our society today, obi, please take off, and then Kisi will give us a join up All right.
Speaker 3:Thank you once again for that question. If I think masculinity is being stifled or being attacked, this actually is a two way thing. Is it attacked? Why is it attacked? If not attacked, why is it not attacked? I mean, we just have to look at it in different ways.
Speaker 3:For me, my experience I've worked with people that you know just the mention of masculinity it's a big problem Well within my society and also within my experience, you know, working in the area of GBV, a gender based violence, a discrimination against women. I would say that somehow, you know, masculinity has been seen, just as I said earlier on, somewhere it has been seen, as you know, something that is not supposed to be part of. You know where we're supposed to be and what I mean. That is that the issue of a man who is married, you know he discriminates against the wife, he doesn't, you know, provide for the wife and the family and sometimes he becomes masculine, you know physical, you know beating us such a woman for, I mean for reasons which he is in a better position to talk about. Now. You know society say it has something not to say that, something not to be part of or not to welcome. You know, within the family or the society. The idea of going against it means that new women and girls, you know people within society actually want to see a society that is very safe. You know for women, a society that is also violent, free, you know. For girls, you know where girls are not being raped and all that, and where a man actually is courageous enough to be mature and take responsibilities and not to beat a woman or not to just go against. You know what it's supposed to be, in the sense that a woman actually deserves a respect. A woman also deserves to be given a space. You know to oppress. You know, and also, you know, when I talk about space, equal space, you know within where the men are walking. Yeah, it has been a tad because of some of these things I've just mentioned and in my experience I've also seen where, you know, the society actually speaks against.
Speaker 3:You know some of the issues that we may have to talk about, like the female gender mutilation, rape, domestic violence, child trafficking and all so many of them. So if you ask me who are the people who are, you know, responsible for some of these issues, it's men. You know, when you talk about some of the social vices. That has to be linked to gender-based violence. You know it's either boys or men and that's why that, you know, within the society is being kicked against that masculinity is an idea that is not, you know, promoting the issue of women. You know they arise, they are men and every other thing, and that's why today we are also talking about, you know, feminism. You know feminist movements are coming up, you know, from here and there. You know, just to make sure that women are defended, are protected and we also prevent, you know, some of these issues that you know women are also experiencing in their lifetime. So this is one of the reasons.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, masculinity is not that, but, just as I said earlier on, just a point of emphasis. You know the issue of gender-based violence sometimes goes beyond, you know, the issue of masculinity. You know, and I mean from my experience Now, it is what the society has cooked up. You know, and tell a boy child, tell a girl child that this is where you belong to, and because of these, you know, stereotypes and people are going. You know those things become part of them and once it is, you know, actually part of them, you find out that those things are something that you know makes women uncomfortable. You know it makes women unpleasant, it makes them not to achieve their goals in life, and these are some of the reasons why you know the issue of masculinity is being attacked. You know from my work, you know within the communities, you know within girls and also women. So this is what I just can say for now about this question.
Speaker 2:Nadi, before KC comes in, I just wanted to ask Obi, so you've talked about the masculinity, so what the picture you painted really looks at the negative side of it. So you've talked about violence and you know, men hitting women and issues of rape, which stems from the kind of masculinity that society encourages and says it is what should be projected, but shouldn't, and that's not how it's supposed to be. But my question this is a follow-up question aren't there ways also in which masculinity affects men, Like this, negative forms of masculinity?
Speaker 2:are there no ways that they affect men as well, or is it only women? Yeah, I mean there are.
Speaker 3:You know men as well, because you know, when you talk about the rate of suicide among, I mean between men and women, you know there's a high increase among men. You know, which I can just also link to the topic. You know why men can't cry. It is a fallacy, you know. You know we are very good in concealing our emotions, you know. But we did all and make us, if we are strong no, we are strong at all. And you know, one of the factors you just asked came in is that I mean men kill themselves because of bodily emotions. You know, because I want to claim I am a man, okay, I want to claim I am a hero and all that.
Speaker 3:So these are some of the things and men also, we also become victim of. You know depressions, you know mental health issues affect us, you know, because we don't express ourselves. And you find out that the high increase of anger, you know, within men and boys, is also in the increase. You know, if I want to take us back to, you know, the time of COVID-19, you know there was a high number of, you know, men who lost their job and all those kind of things. You know they couldn't express themselves. You know, have you know positive relationship with their wives, despite the situation was very tough and degrading, but they claim, they continue claiming that you know this, I am a man, and all those kind of things. So there are so many effects, and I mean few have just mentioned these are the effects we see on daily basis. You know there are frustrations, all everywhere. You know men keep on having, you know, blood pressures and all those kind of things. It's just because you know that they want to.
Speaker 3:You know, claim this stereotype that men do not cry. Men cry a lot. We have a heart, you know we have a soul and these are body parts of normal human beings. Why can't men cry? Wow?
Speaker 1:that's that last line. Men have a heart, they have a soul, and these are body parts of normal human beings. That's that struck me, kenny. That's right, that struck me. Okay, kc, please watch your perspective on this question. Why do you think masculinity is being stifled or attacked?
Speaker 4:Thank you for this question. Okay to me. I strongly agree that masculinity is being stifled or attacked. You know, because some of these men, whose structure is set up by the society and our environment, you know this allows true expression of oneself. You know, when Obi was talking he talked about, you know, mental. It leads to mental disorder in men because most times, like I'm not talking from my own society, my background, where I'm coming from, you know we are brought up in a way to think that as a man, there is no room for you to show weakness, not even when you are hot and you just have to like they wouldn't defend the patient and tell you that it's that point that you are hot, even most, that you express yourself, that you are the man like you have the power and the courage to overcome such.
Speaker 4:You know, I remember back in those days, as a boy child growing up, they gave me a name. They used to call me egg in our native language. So why do they call me egg? Yeah, they called me egg then, and that was that was hot. Because they called me that name, because I always chose to express myself whenever I'm hot. So whenever I feel bad, I just find a way to cry, just like the market people do. I see girls, young girls, crying. I see young boys crying, but then the picture of the young boys crying is rare in my society. So they named me egg. That I'm not strong, you know, and you could imagine how I felt, how degrading it was then, because it made me feel less a man. The words they used then it made me feel as if I'm not qualified, in all ramifications spent by society, to be a man. So this year, some of the struggles I had to face and go through as a growing boy, child in my society, and this made me some of the places I was supposed to express myself, I found it difficult to do because I was like I had to like think within me if I should say this as a man, or should I keep quiet as a man? So why can't men cry? It all became an issue.
Speaker 4:So what I'm trying to say is that there is no freedom of expression. You know, example include telling boys to man or be a man. So in a place whereby they're supposed to show that maybe there's this place is something that is going on or they are not happy or they don't want to like get involved with this. You know, you hear them telling you be a man or not. So once they tell you what's like this, you find yourself not trying to express your true self and this cause of negative energies in us that always find, because energy energies are meant to be released, that is how well you are doing. So we have to express yourself, what you feel is good, to decide.
Speaker 4:Sometimes, of course, life has its way to pen and tissue. Sometimes you get the one that will hurt you. I just like express yourself in being sad, but that happens like it's not a permanent something. But then the way society painted the picture to me, in my own particular society, that I'm not supposed to express myself, even in that situation whereby I'm hurting, that is the point of being a man. That is the point of standing up. You know to as man. They call it money. No, I should man up and, you know, take responsibility and take care. But then that situation is calling for me to, like you know, express myself that I don't like what is happening. I can even find myself crying. It does not mean I'm human being. So it makes men not to freely express their emotions. So I feel masculinity is attacked. A few examples also include, you know, when they feel upset or justifying abusive and inappropriate behavior with the phrase men, with the men. You know this often is masculinity.
Speaker 2:And boys should be boys.
Speaker 4:Or I'm boys. Yes, because.
Speaker 2:I want to get the excuses for women to be men, women sorry.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah. I guess, I only know, I guess. Sorry to introduce you. I guess for the woman is okay Now, woman now yeah.
Speaker 2:And now woman, when you call me.
Speaker 1:I'll say now woman now. Oh my God, okay Now woman now and yeah.
Speaker 4:So these, you know these things makes you not like, want to express yourself the way you should, and it's not so good, it doesn't, it never tells, it's not telling well on our environment, society, because you have a society whereby people have a whole lot of beautiful energy stored inside of them. You know they want to like, give out to help build society and make the place arbitration a very good one, but then, because of the way they were brought up, they attend not to like. It deprives them from expressing their true self, from expressing their true self. So you find all these locked in and want to lock day. You know, of course these are emotions and energies. Because it's inside. You keep, even as a man, keep getting the promptings.
Speaker 4:But because of your structure that you've gotten over the years, you know it makes you to confine these things inside. So what happens is that at some point in time you see yourself blowing up, even in, even in little cases. That you know just requires you, you know just being careful with how you express yourself. But you find yourself blowing up. Why? Because you have so much negative energies stored inside of you. So of course you must have to express these energies in one way or another. From from young age, men are encouraged down to think by culture and environment that as a man you must have to behave in this particular way. As a man you must have to think in this particular way. So the male gender stereotype can, you know, stifle the emotional development of young boys. So to me I can, I can say that masculinity is being attacked. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Oh my word. Okay. So you know, nelly, listening to Obi and Casey just discuss this very question on do you think masculinity has been stifled or attacked? And just hearing them lean into the the the beat about energies and emotion, and I like that they draw from the experiences and their work. It makes me remember a video I was watching.
Speaker 2:I think it was my husband who showed me that video, right, and it was this guy talking about. He was in a room, he was addressing a room of guides and he did say that there was a knife. They had a sound downstairs in the house. His wife was soundly asleep. He jumped up and he was like, did somebody just break into their house? He said he, of course, as the man, which is the expectation he had to go find out what the problem was. So he said he went all the way downstairs but he was afraid, but he had to still go and his wife was sleeping soundly. He said he went downstairs and he tiptoed trying to find okay, what is the noise? Where's the noise coming from, only for him to find out that the window they had left the window open. So the wind had, you know, banned the window door.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was how that was it, I said. But all throughout he was just in protection and defense mode. That was how it was, until he got back into his bed and his wife was still soundly sleeping and he just said you know, it hit me in that moment that there are two of us in this house right now but I'm the only one who had to go check. But even on top of that, I still could not, I was not allowed to express like I can't express fear. Why can't I, why can't I be allowed to express fear? But I was afraid, I was terrified, because if he was somebody, he could have been with a gun, could have been with anything. And then he spoke to the room of men and he said you know, it made me think of how we've been raised as a generation, and generations that have never been given the permission to fully express the entire spectrum of our emotions, and for him that sucks.
Speaker 2:I just yeah, I just remember hearing from Ubi and Casey. He just broke because why can't he be allowed to feel afraid? He was afraid it's okay. I like when Casey says it's an energy that you have. Yes.
Speaker 1:I'm a boy child when they called him an egg.
Speaker 2:That's sad. That is the shaming thing we're talking about. Yes, I had a book like an egg, but there's nothing wrong with being an egg, though it's okay to be fragile, it's fine. Yeah, not in a condescending way.
Speaker 1:If it was a girl if it was a girl, everyone would be like once you get an egg, you're like, oh my God, so delicate.
Speaker 2:That's all from the perspective.
Speaker 4:Yes, I think, as a young boy, you would prefer to be called an ion, right?
Speaker 2:Yes not an ion.
Speaker 4:You know, solely you have this structure.
Speaker 2:But that also speaks to the whole challenge of stereotyping, because it's painful in many ways. What if we were to look at it blanketly? What is wrong with being an egg? We all can be stones, right, we all can be ions. Everybody has some level of weakness, just as they have strengths.
Speaker 3:So why is?
Speaker 2:it that there is that constant expectation of men to always be strong. It's like putting someone on steroids streaming for seven. You can't survive that that in itself is exactly.
Speaker 1:You're going to internally combust or just explode somewhere. Oh my gosh. So oh, wow. Okay, Kami, I think they've begun to deal with the next question, but I think you should still take it the way that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, obi and Casey, all throughout, when you spoke, from the very first time you started dissecting the questions, a particular term has continued to come up, and that is masculinity. But underneath that, you've also talked about negative masculinity. Positive masculinity I'm sure people are wondering what is the difference? Is there even any such thing as positive masculinity and toxic masculinity? So if you could paint a picture for us, what does positive masculinity mean and what does toxic masculinity mean? Also, we, you know, just drawing from your lessons, your experience and the work that you do. Casey, maybe you should start this off with us, and then we go to Obi.
Speaker 4:Yes, Okay, thank you. Thank you very much for the question. So you said the question is what is positive masculinity and negative masculinity? So, drawing from my work, I can say a positive masculinity involves the daily practice of engaging in a process of intentional self growth and commitment to change and impact by your, your soul, focusing on you know self development, self growth, you are committed in your own work, you know to make an impact. That is, to me, a positive masculinity.
Speaker 4:Why the negative aspect of that refers to the notion that some people's idea of you know manliness can encourage domination, aggression and depression. So now, in this concept, when you are now bringing, when you're not bringing, when you're not bringing in the negative masculinity, is you now trying to show that, oh, I have all under control, even when you're making mistakes and maybe your colleagues are telling you, no, you're not doing it right. But then, because you see yourself as a man, you just totally trust your judgment and your execution of tasks. You don't want to pay attention from your directors or from whoever that is here to support you in your work, because you see yourself as a full package to get the job done. So another point is I think what's positive masculinity is the idea that men can be vulnerable, emotionally expressive. You know they can promote, yeah, they can promote, you know, male, having female friends or mentors and express their feelings without feeling emasculated, without, you know, feeling deprived of or truly expressing themselves. You know, I don't want to like talk deep into this because you find this particular point. You know, I think there is a particular region that's projected in Nigeria. You know they prefer not to like walk with the opposite sex. So that's to me, you know, it's not them truly expressing who they are, because deep down, they want to associate freely with these people. So when you allow them to associate freely, that helps them express themselves properly in the way that is healthy. So that is the positive masculinity. So the negative part is derived from denial of emotions. When you, when society has painted the picture that, no, you don't have to associate with these people, you just have to, like you know, show up as a man in every task. You don't have to, you just believe that you're judgment. So this is the person's emotions is now tied down.
Speaker 4:They feel the need to dominate in their workplace, in their circle of friends. They feel the need to dominate, to express themselves in an aggressive way. You know it has roots in the traditional masculine values, such as physical strength in order to conquer through dominance. So you see some people they go, they go extra miles. They want to like look as a man. You see them. You know exercise is very healthy. I exercise a lot. But then you know, because of the structure some men have gotten already, they just want to like, build themselves up to make sure that they are dominating in their workplace and wherever they find themselves. They want to like. When you look at them, you just see them as the man you could want to be seen as a man, that's if you show they want to get their painting. So they are putting in all effort to make sure that nobody counters them of being that true man they want to be. So that's negative masculinity.
Speaker 4:So another point I would like to talk about is posting masculinity. It means not using your size, your strength or power to get what you want from others. You know this means treating others with kindness and respect that they deserve, because we are all equal. We have the rights to express ourselves just the way we feel, although that shouldn't be an attack on others. So to me that's supposed to be masculinity. So joining the negative masculinity. From this point, I think, negative masculinity below the highs on the healthy habits.
Speaker 4:Yes, in some societies, boy, socialization often normalizes violence. You know, when you look at the societies that they always have, you know, wars they always have, they always have, they face a whole lot of disruptions in the society. You find out that it's because that society was shaped in a way that men belong to a particular group. They find themselves is associating with the opposite sex, so it makes them, whatever energy they build up like it's not balanced. They just because everybody wants to show off their masculinity, so it builds this negative energy in them, and because each and every one of them is trying to like express themselves in a negative way, you find them during the wrong time and causing my hem in the society. So that is a negative masculinity.
Speaker 4:So I think the last point I will talk about is a positive masculinity. I think it involves in a great way accountability to be taken by those who encourage negative ideas of manpower. This involves open communication, availability of professional health and therapy. These are critical components for facilitating positive masculinity, you know. So you know, because of some ways, not couple to think about it.
Speaker 4:Sometimes I, when I'm driving, I I I just intentionally count mad people on the highway and I found out that most times when I do the counting, most of them are men. Most of them are men. So sad. And it's so sad because some of them it's because of the way society has shaped them to be. None of them.
Speaker 4:Most of them, most of them it's because of the experiences in the past that brought them to where they are. It's because they were doing everything possible to be a man, to man up. It led them to their mental condition today. So I think being accountable to be taken by those who encourage negative ideas of manpower you know, when they see a man who is accountable, who is balancing his emotions, portraying what it means to be a man in the right way, that can serve as an encouragement to disrupt the negative ideas they have already. So negative muslimism in this country is the idea that meant me to act tough and avoid showing all emotions. This can be harmful to their mental health and can have serious consequences in our societies. Thank you, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow. Thank you, casey Kemi. Are you still here? I'm still here, I'm just. Oh, you're just, you're processing.
Speaker 2:I'm just doing everything, soaking it all in. Oh my God, I just as Casey's unpacking. I'm also looking forward to Ubi's thoughts as well. Yes, this very issue of positive versus toxic masculinity.
Speaker 4:Because I know earlier.
Speaker 2:Ubi did mention that he works with men and boys in the community.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Please. What are your thoughts? Positive masculinity versus toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you once again. Yeah, I completely agree with those insightful thoughts from Casey and he spoke the realities and also what is happening within the society and communities where we are living, especially here in Nigeria, and it's also not only Nigeria, but across the world. Yeah, positive masculinity versus toxic For me. I, you know, when we talk about positive masculinity and I like the fact that the theme or the topic says men. You know why can't men cry? But we cry a lot. It's just that we cry in darkness and in secret and that's so we go to our emotions and when it explodes, that's why we say, ah, this man just died, and I mean just, he was no sign of any sickness and organ disease. Because we have got to so many things and we can't express anything to our wife because I am a man. We can't express anything to our friends because I am a man. We can't. I mean, I mean this. For me, it's just the situation we find ourselves and, going straight to the point, positive masculinity means to me that it's okay to cry. Yeah, it's very, very much okay for a man to cry and it's okay for us to also show emotions. It is a perfect thing because we are created and we have bodies that actually feel just like every other person feel. And why shouldn't men express themselves that? Because we are also human beings and also for positive masculinity.
Speaker 3:It's also showing respect for women, showing respect for girls, and one thing I want to say here is that when we talk about positive masculinity or either, and also the toxic side of it, I believe that charity begins at home. The parental upbringing we have at home matters a lot. The way parents relate to their children matters a lot, and the level of relationship is such that if you teach your boy that is the girl's responsibility to do house chores, I think you're breathing a kind of toxic muscle in. But if you teach your girl that I mean both you and your brother have to do the house chores, okay, if it's time to watch football, what a few will watch football? Is not the boy watching football and the girl is doing the house chores? I think this is where we could actually get it right. And so when men actually show responsibility in bringing up their children not the way the society had set it, but the way that every child will bring up will actually become a very transformational leader at the end of the day. That, for me, is actually positive masculinity. And it is also very, very good that, between both married men and married women, that we also join hands together in exercising self-confidence before our children, self-esteem before our children, because whatever they see is what they learn and whatever they see is what they become at the end of the day. So for me, these are the attitudes and behaviors that actually make up positive masculinity and, if it is well-treaded towards having perhaps reducing the number of cases we have within the society, those who are victim or survivors of gender-based violence, I think this is actually the way to go.
Speaker 3:Another way of positive masculinity is that men should know that it is very fine, it is okay to seek help, and some men don't go to hospital because they feel they don't need it. And good and fine. There are consequences when you say you don't need it. So it means that for every man don't claim that you remain and you are dying there and at the end of the day, you put that woman into suffering and hardship because there is no one to help her to bring up those children, because she refused to become a real man, because I believe strongly that a real man actually speaks up and he also helps the society to be a better society and not to refuse to seek help when he needs it. In a case you talked about mental health. This is very, very. It is on the increase, even though within the society, people don't know much about it. Just as I said earlier, there is discretion here and there, frustration the case of Nigeria is something where prices are going up on daily basis to feed the children are very, very difficult things to do. It is a good thing in my eyes to open up to some people that this is what I'm passing through as a man, but most men feel it is a simple thing to do and it becomes a very dangerous thing and that boomerangs to them at the end of the day. Now the toxic negative of time, when you reverse back to all I've just said and men are not doing all those those are just typical examples or typical cases of toxic masculinity, because it impacts negatively on the life of the man, not only him. It also impacts negatively on the life of every other person that's also surrounding him. It could be in the family, it could be at any place, so toxic masculinity is a very bad state of mind of a man at any point in time, because it kills, it destroys relationships, it kills dreams. It's a way of showing that this is who you are and now that is not the real person you are, and this is the phenomenon that we actually see around most men that claim to be what they are not. I want to give us.
Speaker 3:Earlier on, kemi talked about I was talking about manhood and masculinity. I think she mentioned of hegemonic masculinity, which also is a different type of masculinity. As we speak, most men actually occupy this kind of position of hegemonic, whereby it is difficult for others to have rights to do whatever they want to do, and that is actually what we see, and that is a very bad state of toxic masculinity, which doesn't bring any progress and it doesn't help any man at all and it doesn't help any society to grow. And this also who else? The issue that we have at hand, which is men are committing all sorts of crimes and all that. And finally, I want to link the toxic masculinity to narcissism, where some people or some men specifically feel that they are most superior to other women. It could be their wife, it could be other women in the office, in the workplace, in schools, it could be anywhere.
Speaker 2:Even to other men as well.
Speaker 3:Even to other men. Yes, yes. So this actually is a very bad state of toxic masculinity. In conclusion, it does not. It's very, very okay for us to, I mean for men to be real and face the reality and just do away with this falsehood of masculinity and falsehood of manhood. That is not helpful. No, that is not. I mean, it's not developmental. It affects the human health. It affects the physical health. It affects the physical, I mean even the emotional health of the men. It is a high time that this society comes back to its normal state. I want to talk about society I'm referring to men, you know to just act like a man, as a real man, and stop all those kind of, you know, pretenses that are very, very societal at the end of the day. Thank you so much, thank you.