Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
7. Why Can't Men Cry? - Part 2
In this concluding episode with Kaycee and Obi, we navigate the potential of nurturing young minds as catalysts for change, emphasizing the value of early interventions to shift gender-based perceptions. Additionally, we celebrate the men redefining strength, not by the weight they can lift, but by the gender and social-cultural barriers they break. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's a call to action for all of us to support and participate in the movement toward a society that honors emotional openness and equity across all genders.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Let's continue to talk about why can't men cry, okay.
Speaker 2:so thank you, obi-wan and Kate, for just unpacking this for us from your perspective and based on the work you do, something that you said, obi-wan, just tried to make mention, and that's because even in the field that I work in, we've seen that as an issue, and that is when you talked about a trait or an expression of toxic masculinity is men not seeking for help? And that it's okay for men to seek for help.
Speaker 2:and you made a connection to health, the fact that you know men are not seeking for help or going to the hospitals and I tell you that because I agree with you, because I've seen, even in data, men have poor health seeking behavior than women and the reason why they have poor health seeking behavior has its roots in stereotype of, like Casey mentioned, that society expects men to always demonstrate and show strength, so going to a hospital to see you as sick is a tomatical being, a form of weakness, is an expression of weakness, and we've seen that even those of us who work in the HIV AIDS field or the gender field or development, is where part of the challenge we're having is the fact that you're not getting men into the facilities.
Speaker 1:Men are not coming to the healthcare centers.
Speaker 2:Men are not coming to receive services. They have poor health seeking behavior when you compare them to women.
Speaker 1:So what you?
Speaker 2:have at the end of the day is you see men presenting late, let's say, for things like HIV, you see them presenting late and that should not be and I think it's good to always. I like that we draw these connections and these links to how gender inequality, harmful gender stereotypes, toxic masculinity, how they are detrimental not just to an individual but even to the society, but just drawing the connection and the correlation to things like health, to things like mental health, to things like just attitude in the society, relationship, aging, change, relationship, relationship. I like how one looks at the connections to it because I think it helps people to see more glaringly why they should be everyone's business to come together and address all forms of inequality that we see in our society or all forms of harmful stereotypes that we see in our society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have a point. Please go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I can't be just. I mean it's, it's just very fantastic that you just mentioned the health seeking behaviors among men. In fact, I had an experience, you know, some time ago. This is a man who was it. I mean glad and fine that he was even able to go to the hospital, you know so. But the next point of action was that he was supposed to meet a female doctor.
Speaker 1:And I know where this is going.
Speaker 4:And the case at hand was. I mean, he's supposed to show the female doctor you know the private parts of what the situation was. I thought you know that he could not do that because he felt it's a man. So, as we noted what was happening, so we need to be with the hospital to like maybe a big, if you can just, you know, get the man also not that male doctor.
Speaker 4:So so I mean I mean these are serious issues, that it's it's, it's nothing. I mean this is a professional health person who has been licensed, is confidential and and because she is a woman and you will not have it. So I like the fact that Kimi just mentioned this, because even when they do seek, you know I'm going to the hospital and all that Also. Sometimes there are also issues. Just as I just mentioned, that also happened and also sometimes it just happened just for some, you know, I mean there are no reasonable reasons, you know so you are.
Speaker 4:Men should actually find a way to like help themselves and not to kill themselves in matters that has to be prevented.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot, of, a lot of these things that we've learned can be unlearned, though they're not casting stone. Yeah, it's the same way. I've seen a number of men are generation who have said they never, they never had their fathers tell them I love you, son, never, never told the sons I love you. And so now you see a generation of men, some of them, a lot of them, are saying now I'm going to change that narrative. I look at my son and I tell him I love you. It's okay to, it's okay to say that it's because then it also contributes even to confidence, to self esteem, the fact that someone cares deeply about you and they can say it and it's for me. It's also hard to want me when I see men tell each other I love you, bro. You know we didn't use to have that before and you should go away from that because that's women things, women who should be saying things like that. But when we do that, I think it goes to what will be and also Casey mentioned it what you model for children, to see that you know that comes respect, it comes honor for both, regardless of the gender. It's not all, it's only women that should be able to say this.
Speaker 2:I remember for a long time guys to say, oh, I couldn't hug another man, you know. But I can't be more comfortable to hug each other, you know, to say I love you, you know, I admire you, I respect you, and that's fine. We should become those that for me at least, as a woman standing out and looking in, those are positive behaviors, because I know, even for us women, when we tell a sister I love you, it feels like you have a community writing for you, like you have a community as your back. I think it's important that men also have safe spaces, because that's something that society has dropped men off, you know, to have safe spaces to share and to just be. If I can say that, nnedi, do you want to take our next question?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I wish you could go on. Yes, we should go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But just before I take the next question, guys, just like Kevin said, it's hard for me to see when you guys tell yourselves I love you bro. It's even more if you can't, if that's the little too much for you. We'd love to see you guys hug each other. You know those funny, you know slap hugs. You know tap, tap, tap on the back. We'd love to see you. So, please, we could start with that man. We'd love to see you. So that leads us to the next question. In the face of, you know, so much negativity, so much toxic expectation of men, you know, towards expressing their masculinity, how are you, obi and Casey, how are you engaging men and boys to advance positive masculinity and their champion, equality and or equity in your work? Obi, I think you should start this time and at least you can close off for us.
Speaker 4:Right, great. Thank you, nedy. Yeah, how I'm engaging men and boys. You know earlier I said I'm working with men and gage, which you know, primarily peace, actually is also part of our core areas. You know what we do across the world and also specific to Nigeria.
Speaker 4:I have always said this you know, the home is the basis of life and is the basis of you know where we give back to our children and there is home training. The pepper is there, the mama is there. So whatever you do at this point in time, they watch it, they see it and they want to do the same thing. So if there's a father who beats the wife, the boy child or the girl child who grow up, you know seeing the father beating the wife and it's there. You know, sometimes it stays till dead.
Speaker 4:So for us, one of the things we do is that we engage communities and schools. We have sessions where we train, you know, our junior secondary school students, especially boys, and we also reach out to communities where we engage boys. We work with traditional and religious leaders. You know we engage, yeah, we engage, you know, the boys, and this, I think, the last program we did, we targeted the ages between 10 to 24. So these are the level of people that we engage and what we do. We have this, you know. We have this dialogue, you know, with them and their parents. You know, and our first point, after the boys and second point is is is also the teachers, because we encourage them to know that being a student or a junior secondary school student is an opportunity and this opportunity does not mean that does not mean that of you know, disrespecting. You know some of the girls in your class. We teach them through self-confidence, you know, self-esteem and also assertiveness in different areas. And we also engage the parents so that the feedback we have to get, feedback of what happens at home, because we believe very strongly that at home, that is where a lot of things happen, even though you know, when they leave their home, the societal pressure you know from peers also happen, you know also takes place.
Speaker 4:But the most important thing is that we engage these boys, you know, telling them that, hey, being a boy, that you have equal rights, you know, with either you have a sister at home or the other schoolmates or classmates that are around you, and we give good examples, you know, of role models who are women and girls who have achieved a lot of things, you know, within society, and we also encourage them to have healthy competitions within schools. You know, sporting competitions within schools where actually they play together, boys and girls, and no one trample on anybody's right, and we display this kind of sportsmanship, you know, within between the boys and girls, and we, at the level of traditional rulers, we engage them, you know, through advocacy, you know, because there's a lot that these boys and men actually believe when their pastors are speaking, you know when their emembers are also talking. So we also work, you know, with these traditional and religious leaders. You know some of the, you know summons can actually be tilted to. You know how men treat their wives, or how husbands treat their wives, and how boys, you know should behave and give good examples of role models that have actually, you know, showcased a very good leadership, either in marriage either in organizational level and all that. So these are different ways we are able to. We have been able to engage, you know, men and boys.
Speaker 4:As a member of men engaged in Nigeria, and I also want to say that it is very, very important to mention the fact that, you know, through this engagement, the issue of policy is very, very important. You know, in Nigeria we have different policies but, you know, sometimes enforcement and implementation is just a challenge. We're having no-transcript also leads to why we are not making progress in terms of reducing the negative cases of masculinity in Nigeria or within the communities. So we have been able to engage stakeholders at the policy level to make sure that some of the policies and laws that actually address the issue of gender-based violence are brought up and also enforced, so that we could actually have a level playing ground for everyone.
Speaker 4:I want to talk about the child rights act. If those of us who are coming from the south and those coming from the north, you find out, there is this difference in existing laws and also implementation, and these are some of the challenges we have in terms of policy. If the policies are supposed to be enforced adequately and properly, I think it will also go a long way. So, as part of our work, we also advocate for these policies to actually make sure that they help in the need for which they are created and not just to have them live there and nothing is happening While we are having these negative cases of what we know in society in terms of negative masculinity, toxic masculinity, affecting our society, women in general and also our work in particular. So thank you. This is my intervention here.
Speaker 1:Thank you, ubi. That was very detailed. I especially love how grassroots you know your intervention is traditionally working with not just schools and boards, traditional rulers and religious leaders, because we in our society I think a lot of times we kind of make it or minimize the level of influence the people in this particular two sectors wield over young people and even us, you know, as adults you know. So it's encouraging to hear that you do work with the people in these two areas and to positively or to teach boys about positive masculinity and, you know, gender equality. Thank you, thank you so much, kc. Could we hear your intervention, mokot?
Speaker 3:So, my own way, how I engage men and boys to advance positive masculinity and champion equality and equity in my society. You know, like you say, charity begins at home. You know, but only want to promote this. You know, positive masculinity, the best place we should look out for. The places we look out for are places where we can gather thoughts and learn. So, first place, charity begins at home. First place, I started my own work when I became aware of this thing. It's from my family, so I started talking to my younger ones. That is how I started my own job, telling them and promoting positive masculinity, trying to, you know, break off the old structure, the old, you know, understanding shaped by society about being a man. So in 2021, I launched a project a project to help me grow and advance it in Abuja, and this project, you know, is targeting the vulnerable ones in our society.
Speaker 3:The first projects I had end up, I engaged these children beggars, as they call their majeurees. That's always is always seen roaming about the streets, begging with plates in their hands, you know, asking for food and alms. In that project I met, because most of them, they are kept in a mosque, so they have a man who look after them. So I think during some time in the day they are sent off to go beg for food. But I saw that degraded because when you trade off a child like this and you are making him think that he can't, he has no, he has no gifts, he has no talent, so all he should bank on his hope in life is begging. And how I test run these is sometimes I try to engage them in conversations, although some most of them they find it hard to communicate with the language. So sometimes I go with my friends and I go into the conversations and I ask them can they do something else except begging? You know, what you hear them say is like they have an authority over them, that are silenced, them to behave in this particular way, so like they want. They will love to ask children, they will love to express themselves, but then they don't have the platforms to do that and the only platform they have is the platform given to them by the, the archaic cast. So whatever they tell them to do, whatever they are asked to do, that is what you find them doing. So in the process that, I became friends with few of them and I told them on my notice. Sometimes I go there my drawing books. I try to create some drawings I'm not sure if they are mixed and they want to try something like this out.
Speaker 3:I saw their curiosity. I saw their interest to learn and to change their lives in whichever way. They have just to break off from the norm of begging from money to your life. So that was how I started Co-Chairs. Help Me Grow these children. You know.
Speaker 3:The characters I saw on display during my F6 to them made me understand that these young men, they need to live their life in the right way in me, in me, to understand that the inside of them is told unique talents that can help them, you know, growing into becoming a better man tomorrow. Because sometimes when they ask for arms and I don't want to give them, I'm not giving them. You see them. You see their character and they are, and you see their character and their content and content and changes. They try to become aggressive because they feel you are depriving them from it. That is because of you know the way society has structured them to be.
Speaker 3:So I sat down with that person in 2021. I had to meet with the moms in the mosque. It wasn't easy initially, because you know, whenever you want to talk with a much used so, whenever you want to comment that, yeah, these things are not on them, that makes them on touch. So before you engage in your meeting, I tell you, when you're not from the part of the country, they make it difficult for you, except you have a system you know, learning individuals who stays around a particular location. So what I did was I met some learning individuals, I explained to them what I'm intending to do and they welcome the idea and they asked me that, okay, the tome that they want to support is really in any way they can. Okay, this first one that I want to use art. I want to engage them in art related activities so that we can paint and draw together all those same forms that you know they always watch on televisions. I try to bring it to them, to reflect it to them now, so that because when they are engaging in these things, they find themselves expressing their true self, who they are. You see them laughing and they are laughing because they are happy, not they are laughing because somebody meets them to be happy. So when, maybe, the phoenix game, you see them sad because they failed to achieve something, not somebody's making them, you know, feel that same way. So these things helped me to understand that the best way to reach out to them is looking out for places where we gather young boys and men, so our homes, communities.
Speaker 3:I've done another project in the community, in legislature, where I met with but as the project grew, I had some volunteers who we want to help out. So we went to the community and we met with the rulers. We explained to them we want to love to engage the younger, although that project was not only for boys, it was for younger boys and younger girls as well, young boys and young girls. So they gave us the opportunity to showcase what we are. And that activity was more like, you know, promoting positivity amongst young boys and young girls, making them see the light that your destiny lies in your hands. Nobody can dictate what you will be. It all lies in you.
Speaker 3:We try to talk to them about the positive way of life, the positive way of living, to affect our society positively. So that is promoting positivity, our place we are trying to reach out to this year and the project is coaches and musts. So we map that because we usually have our projects during the end of the game because at that point you know we all have our minds to, like, you know, have that mindset of landing off the gate in a post-team game. So no matter what hardship or challenges we face, you know throughout the year everybody wants to, everybody wants to run, everybody wants to run up in a post-team game. So that is what we are promoting and helping with the Africa. So we encourage the kids to learn and voice about what held them as community in terms of how to be a post-team male role model in society. And also we teach them to learn to be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:See variability through the lens of toxic masculinity is the correct ridiculous for learning to accept that you are actually vulnerable. You know that leads to emotional awareness, that leads to true expression of oneself, so resulting in being more empathic to yourself and others. So also I try to encourage to stop trying to be a strong male among the younger boys by producing masculine attributes, because this is something I myself experience growing up. So I try to tell them to stop trying to be a strong male by producing masculine attributes such as violence, because to them they want to like show off, I'm the man, I'm the man and you end up finding them fighting over and over. So this attribute, such as violence, dominance, aggression and toughness, is not encouraged at all.
Speaker 3:So I rather portray and promote. You should be a man that means you promote and produce more compassion, kindness and truth. Lastly, I would like to say that I try to intervene with others. I would like to tell them to intervene, you know, to get together with other people well-being, mental health, social sexism, oppression and aggression. They should try to reach out to people who are maybe older people, people who have much more experience than they do, you know. You should make them balance their growth and make them grow properly.
Speaker 2:So thank you and even teaching boys consent as well. What consent means? Yes, and the fact that men do not have ownership of women's bodies, like you know.
Speaker 1:I think those are things that, yeah, very profound.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's it. Very profound submissions from you and Obie Really profound.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, so honestly, guys, the interview this has been so eye-opening, like you guys, like it's as if you knew, and every time you answered questions you were given a like holistic views, holistic and that kind of automatically touched on every other thing that we had lined up to ask you. So we really really appreciate you taking our time to. You know, be very vulnerable with us. I do hope that all our listeners are, as you know, challenged and as motivated as we are on this episode. Now, because we are like we've overshadowed our time and we need to wrap up this wonderful episode, we're going to go to the fun part and try to get it done as quickly as possible so that we can let you get over the rest of your day.
Speaker 1:So, obie and KC, we've come to a surprise package for this episode. If your life was a book or a movie, or even a poem, what would the title be and why? If you could tell us a useful line, we would appreciate it. So, obie, if your life was a book or a movie, what would the title be and why?
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you so much, Nady. If my life were to be a book or a movie or something else, I would choose the title. Thanks for the Part.
Speaker 2:Why? Thanks for the Part.
Speaker 4:Yeah, because you know, in Thanks for the Part, we saw a total demonstration and display of masculinity. We are Okonkwo Kyo, the lovely boy that saw him as a father. He came from a. If you have read this book, and that was a very shocking experience, because the whole community saw Okonkwo as a hero who is realist, so he was very masculine in killing the song, a more negative form of masculinity now.
Speaker 4:No, actually a negative form of masculinity and which we discourage from every sense of it within this society. So that's my title of the book. Thanks for the Part you need to pay royalties.
Speaker 2:You need to pay royalties.
Speaker 1:But also, that's also an ode to the great man you know, to the icon. Yeah, to the chapter now, that is Chinatubu.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 1:Chinatubu, that's true, and also such a very masculine title. So, kc, thanks for the Part. Kc Hitos. So once your life was a book, a movie or a poem, what would the title be and why?
Speaker 3:If it was a life, that would be a title would be Mission Impossible, mission Impossible.
Speaker 1:Is that what you said?
Speaker 3:Yes, Mission Impossible.
Speaker 2:Oh wow. Why Mission Impossible? Tell me. I'm interested in this response. So why Mission Impossible?
Speaker 1:These men.
Speaker 3:So the major actor of Mission Impossible is Tom Cruise. So it's a movie whereby you find the actor trying to overcome a particular task and challenge. So once he's getting through this one, there's a next one waiting for him. So after the next one, that is why the movie started with Mission Impossible. But at the end of it you will see how he overcome everything that posed a threat and challenge to him. That made him the major actor.
Speaker 3:So, relating it to life, you know, I think I've personally have. Of course I'm a young boy, but I've come to overcome some challenges that are, at the point, seemed impossible to overcome. Yes, so, but then I think the impossibility purposes are set, inrocketing made it make so much sense to me because I found myself discovering more about myself, discovering more about some attributes I never knew existed in me, because situations like that makes you want to discover your true self. Your ability is your strength, so it makes you connect with your original you know. So, I think, points like that in life, someone may have lived his years in life, 24 years, but then you find out that they've not discovered their true self even within the 24 years. So then G that makes life seem impossible to live on. Somebody drinks out that true self, and that is what I chose.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mission impossible as a title very powerful titles makes me remember what the, the great Nelson Mandela, said.
Speaker 1:It always seems impossible until it is done. So, yes, it was an awesome episode.
Speaker 2:If I do this for myself, I've loved every bit of the conversation, just oh, yeah, yeah, from me yes it wasn't amazing to you how you meet.
Speaker 1:You know I love the way the research a wonderful expose on men and manhood and masculinity.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, society says it should be, but what men should actually strive for it to be?
Speaker 1:or yes, yes, so I think it's. It's it's kind of you know, revealed, you know things that we didn't know or things we just had an inkling you know off but we weren't very sure about. So I think I'll walk away from this episode with with a clearer view, a clear understanding of what it means to be a man, of what masculinity means in the society and in today's world, and how I can help you know, how I can help in pretty six spaces for men, because, like it's not many six spaces maybe you know, yeah, they do. They do. Tell me what do you think as we round?
Speaker 2:up. My take really is if I'm just a sum up, if I'm to sum up OB and cases, all of their submissions, it would be that masculinity and manhood should be based on love, respect, empathy, compassion and strength that is put to good use, not strength that is destructive or strength that is to good use. Vulnerability and just the ability to, to be expressive, to seek help. You know, you know weight, because then all of that helps to advance. They contribute to equality, they contribute to equity and also men walking to challenge these harmful stereotypes that are detrimental to us as a society. As we can see from both of them, they both do good work in their fields, working with young boys and young men, and the more people come in to contribute, the better the society will be as we continue to evolve. So for me, yeah, those are my key, yeah, key points and and and. Yeah, hegemony forms of masculinity is something that exists in our society and men should actually, you know, and even women should, should, collective work against it. Yeah, oh yeah oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that. And, in closing, guys, it's very important that we take these exposings you know this these truths that have been shared here, we take them very seriously because if we don't, there's every tendency that we we as a people, as a community, as a society will be contributing consciously or consciously to the increase in the death statistics of our men. So if we we're not creating enough safe spaces, if we're not dealing with this toxic traits, toxic societal expectations of what masculinity and manhood should be, there's every tendency that will be contributing to killing our men folk. So, as we work towards ensuring a more equal world, I'd like to thank Obi for Yenegre and Casey Uriawa for joining us today to do justice to the topic why men can cry now that men can cry and men should.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you, you all so much for joining us, and we have come to the end of episode one for season two of the gender-ish podcast with Kenny and Nettie, and remember that if you do have stories or questions or experiences with harmful gender stereotype, you can send us an email at genderishp, at gmailcom also. Do not forget to like to share, to subscribe. You can follow us on F as genderishp, and you can also follow us on instagram at genderishp, and you can find our podcast on Spotify, apple, google, as well as Buzzsprout. So please leave a comment, let us know your thoughts as we continue to learn and grow together. Remember that the just and equitable world is possible if we all play our parts without discrimination or bias, and for me, that's fine bye, thank you, bye, bye.