Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
8. Unveiling the Shadow: Gender Stereotypes and Domestic Violence
Have you ever noticed the shadows that gender stereotypes cast on our society, shaping the framework of domestic violence? In an episode that unveils the grim ties between these harmful norms and abuse within the home, we welcome Gladys Emmanuel, an astute Lawyer and Gender Equality Advocate. Together, we dissect the complexities of Gender-Based Violence, giving voice to victims/survivors and challenging the patriarchal bedrock that sustains this cycle of power and control.
Our heartfelt discussion culminates in a spotlight on the critical role of family and community support systems, which can serve as lifelines for victims/survivors attempting to break free from abusive relationships. This episode isn't just a dialogue—it's a pledge for change, a testament to our resolve to stand against the violence that stems from deep-rooted stereotypes.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Season 2, episode 3 of the Gender-ish podcast, the podcast that is designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time. My name is Cammy and I'm here with the usual suspect.
Speaker 1:Hi guys, it's.
Speaker 2:Nelly Cammy, how are you? I'm very well, Nelly. How are you today? I am doing great.
Speaker 1:I hope you had an awesome weekend.
Speaker 2:A weekend. Yes, my week was good. Busy, busy end of the year, but my week was good. Can you believe what? Three episodes into season 2.
Speaker 1:No, I can't honestly, it feels like we just this whole beautiful ride started, you know, just last week. And here we are season 2, episode 3. Good, I thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank you to everyone who's just been supporting us. Season 1 was a blast and we're trusting in you. You know that season 2 will also be even better. So, Nelly, what are we talking about today? So?
Speaker 1:today we will be exploring the topic domestic violence yes, that very heavy, that heavy phrase, domestic violence and we'll be looking at its correlation with gender stereotypes to see if there are any relationships between these two concepts and to do justice to this topic. Today, guys, we have a special guest and you will believe what we have in store for you today. So let's Cammy, or shall I say Cammy, over to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, we have a guest and we'll just let her introduce herself, and she's also very close to the Gender Rich podcast family.
Speaker 3:Yes, so our dear, guest, please introduce yourself.
Speaker 3:Hello Cammy, hello Nelly, it's really nice. So my name is Gladys Emmanuel, the Advocacy Officer and in-house lawyer, tabitha Empowerment Centre. And what Tabitha Empowerment Centre does? It's a non-governmental, not-for-profit organisation committed towards eliminating domestic violence through advocacy targeting individuals and communities, provision of psychosocial support and rehabilitation. And we also do sensitisation, lots of sensitisation, and awareness creation. We also committed towards providing developmental support for widows and educational assistants for Indigenous children in Nigeria. So, in my role as Advocacy Officer and in-house lawyer, part of the things that I do is I lead the development of pragmatic approaches and implementation plans to address gender-based violence and provide support for survivors, widows and Indigenous children. I equally coordinate the mapping and engagement of strategic stakeholders or partners, especially governments, ngos, civil society organisations, community-based organisations and community gatekeepers, to advance conversations and favourable policies towards reducing the state of domestic violence in the country. I also provide pro bono legal representation for victims and survivors of various forms of gender-based violence, so ranging from domestic violence, which is at the core of our conversation today, to sexual violence, and you name it Wow.
Speaker 2:You know, that's the thing we always get the right people to address these issues.
Speaker 1:See, kim, we'll refresh the programme. For all that, Let me stop you right there. So, guys, this is where I show myself, so haven't listened to that very impressive resume. You guys will understand why I'm super excited today. So Gladys is our sister. Oh sorry, my sister by association, gladys is actually Kim's real-life sister and she's very proud she's my younger sister.
Speaker 2:So, yes, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, far from the tree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, guys, we are very excited about having Gladys here. I just want to take this time out, so this question is not part of today's episode, but I'm still going to make it part of today's episode. So, kimmy, how does it feel to have such an outstanding sister? Yeah, people, she's not just smart, she's beautiful, like if you see her. Oh, my God, tell me, how do you feel?
Speaker 2:Maddie, stop digressing. Focus, focus. No, I'm not serious. I'm very proud of my sister and you can see that it runs in the family the passion to fight for people's rights, gender issues, advocacy, advocacy. We're very passionate about that. We're also both lawyers as well. So, yeah, it's more, it's just, it's always beautiful. I always like to hear my sister Gladys, or Amma, like we call her at home to just share on these issues, and that's why, when we were talking about, you know, when we look at domestic violence, the state of domestic violence, and then you know what correlation there is with gender.
Speaker 1:With gender stereotypes.
Speaker 2:We didn't have to look very far away to find someone, to find Gladys to come in the studio to actually share with us. I was just talking about her walk and her resume. My head was just swelling, you know yes yes, mine was swelling last week.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know two guys. As an aside, on a very serious note, when you hear things like this, these are two daughters, two sisters in the same family you would understand why we're very big and why we're very passionate about gender stereotypes and dismantling every harmful stereotype. Because imagine if these two sisters, when given the tools to thrive, to be their best selves. Imagine what we would have lost.
Speaker 1:So this is why we're very passionate about this. This is why we do this, guys. This is a prime example. Imagine these were your sisters. Imagine if these are your daughters. Imagine if these two ladies belong to your family. You know if they were your wives, you know? So, yeah, this is why we do what we do, guys. Yeah, so Camille.
Speaker 2:And on that matter, that's the heart moment. Let us go into our very first question for today, and when we look around us, every time you turn on the news or you go on social media, we keep seeing different forms of gender-based violence. People have been in those situations, men and women, and at the top of it is domestic violence as well. So, gladys, can you paint a picture for us of the state of GBV and particularly domestic violence in Nigeria, in terms of the stats, the definition? For somebody who doesn't know what GBV or even domestic violence is about, can you please paint a picture for us? What is the situation right now in Nigeria?
Speaker 3:Alright, thank you very much, kemi. I'll first give an overview, then I'll provide a definition on the forms of gender-based violence. So gender-based violence, or GBV like it's normally called, is an ancient patriarchical system of control and oppression. It's one that has a global developmental challenges. It also has an adverse effect on the social credence accorded to women and girls all over the world. So issues of GBV are not limited to Africa alone. It's a situation that cuts across all continents.
Speaker 3:Now, gbv refers to all hams inflicted or suffered by an individual on the basis of their sex or on the basis of their gender difference. Now that gender difference could be identified as male or female. We've had cases of men who also go through issues of GBV. However, the statistics of the figures are more when it comes to women and girls. So for some people, they hear GBV and automatically they think, oh, it's just a female conversation. No, we have male who have been victims and also survivors of gender-based violence. So according to UNEFPA, it says one in three women experienced gender-based violence during their lifetime. Now a report also published by Save the Children says that 15 million adolescent girls aged 15 to 19 have experienced sexual violence, with only 1% of them seeking professional help. Also, save the Children provides that 200 million women and girls have experienced female genital mutilation and about 35% of women globally have experienced either physical or sexual violence.
Speaker 2:And these are all forms of gender-based violence, the different forms, the different ways it manifests, exactly.
Speaker 3:So the forms of gender-based violence we have. The number one on the list, which is very prevalent, is domestic violence. Now, what is domestic violence? It's a form of violence that happens in the home front, so it could be between people who are intimate partners. That's when we use the word IPV, which is intimate partner of the world. It could be between persons who have intimate relationship, or it could be between siblings or between family members.
Speaker 3:Also, we have human trafficking. Human trafficking is modern day slavery. It's an illegal trade of persons for commercial or sexual or other forms of exploitation, which also includes organ harvesting. The global market for human trafficking states that about $150 billion is made annually from trafficking of persons. Now, this report was done by Pathfinder's Justice Initiative. About $150 billion is what is generated from the trafficking market, and about two-thirds of this figure, which is $99 billion, is derived from sexual exploitation. And of course, we know the victims are women and girls.
Speaker 3:Then we have child marriage. Some people interchange with early marriage, so child marriage is a situation where a little girl is forced into marriage to someone who is way older than her. Sometimes it's a form of repayment for debt that the parents are unable to pay. We also have economic deprivation. Now, what is economic deprivation? It's a tool that's mostly used. This is one that I have had to see over and over again. When clients visit the office, you hear things like oh, he says I shouldn't work, I should stay at home just bear children. He'll take care of me and take care of the children. And then perhaps she decides to. In their words, she decided she started to grow wings. Those are the phrases we hear every time. Cut off that supply of maybe daily upkeep or monthly upkeep money and all of that.
Speaker 3:Then we have physical violence. Physical violence, like the name implies, it's one that you can see the end results. You can see bruises, you can see black eye, you can see some. Sometimes people are disfigured from it. Then we have infanticide. This is not usually practicing this part of the world, however. In some parts of Asia you have infanticide. What does it mean? It means they kill a child because perhaps it's not a male, they're expected a male, and then it's female. So they figure the best is to actually eliminate that child. So, based on that, there is also sexual abuse, or sexual violence, and this one has become more prevalent every day. Now, what is sexual abuse? It means non-concentral sexual activity, a sexual activity that the tools use are cohesion and perhaps manipulation or blackmail most of the times.
Speaker 2:And those manifest in rape cases, like rape or revenge, pornography and things like that.
Speaker 3:Now, under the Nigerian legal system, it's divided into two. There is the rape, which you mentioned. There are various ingredients to prove that. I wouldn't delve into that. But then we have rape is usually for when it's adults that are involved. However, if it's a child that is the victim, it's known as the foul man. Now we have the Child's Rights Act, which has gotten from the United Nations Convention for the Rights of the Child, and under the Child's Rights Act, a child cannot consent with sexual activity. So, whether someone got up with or she said yes or she said no, the law says a child is unable to consent because it's deemed as contract. And of course, we know that children are not able to get into contract because of immature acts. Yes, that's GBV, and those are the forms of gender-based violence.
Speaker 1:That's the end of the process.
Speaker 2:The numbers are really staggering, and then the statistics always just show us that there is a problem and we need to do so much more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, Kemi, sometimes you think, maybe because we're in the space, you think you have this information, you think you know the numbers and all that. But having conversations like this and someone else definitely down and, you know, read out these numbers again and again, it kind of makes you pause and think what are we doing? Are we doing enough? Like, why do we still have this? You know why this margin? The margins are wide, Very wide, yeah. So, Anna, there was something you said, something like on the economic deprivation. I know we a lot of times default is women. Yeah, because the statistics shows it's more on women but men be economically deprived as well in GBV, have you?
Speaker 1:had this in cases like this.
Speaker 3:Yes, I had a client sometime last year and he was economic deprivation and it was just a mix of everything. So, yeah, sometimes the man is not earning as much as the woman is, or he's not earning at all, and she uses the money or she uses the welfare packages as some form of weapon to force him to do her bidding, if I'll use that. Although we have, the figures for men are quite minute, very little what we have for women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do like the fact that you bring out because you know, when we talk about gender, people automatically just think women alone. But gender really won't pass.
Speaker 2:But I also like that. You brought out the fact that even men also face gender based violence and even domestic violence as well. Men face that. Granted, yes, the burden is higher or it's higher with women. In terms of women, you have more women and girls if you look at the numbers who go through this on a day to day basis, but I think it's always just important to highlight that there are also men who go through gender based violence. You've done a very good job in terms of just painting all the pictures of what the different forms of domestic violence and gender based violence and how it manifests. I'm sure some people didn't know that certain things actually happened, but can you just help us in terms of the drivers? Now let's look more a bit at GBV, but particularly more at domestic violence. What are some of the drivers that you have seen that actually causes these cases that we keep reporting or seen in the news all around us?
Speaker 1:I think you've already begun to answer this question already, but if it could become more detailed, we don't mind.
Speaker 3:Okay, so the number one it's harmful under stereotypes. What does that mean? In an instance, a family has a boy and a girl. The girl is expected to be a carer, she's expected to always be in the kitchen, she's expected to always clean. The boy is expected to just play with toys, and the toys are restricted to cars and building blocks. And the girl is expected to play with dolls, if at all she's going to play with anything.
Speaker 3:So when he grows up with that mentality and every time she tries to say, ah, can't he help out, the response she gets is he's a man, you're a woman, we're grooming you because you're going to get married and become someone else's wife tomorrow.
Speaker 3:So when he grows up with that mentality, he's most definitely going to treat every other female, especially the one he's married to or the one he has some affiliation with. He's most definitely going to treat them the same way, because that is all he knows, that is what he grew up with. And so we've seen, most of the times, clients coming and when we reach out to the perpetrators, the fact that it's a female that's on the other side, they would not even want to listen to you why they already have that notion that females should be subjects should be under the man. They are inferior to men. I'll give you an instance. I represented the clients in court a few months ago and while proceedings were going on, it was my turn, of course, to cross-examine him, and he just wouldn't respond like a civil person will, and the judge had to call his attention to the fact that later I discovered oh well, because it's a female.
Speaker 2:It's a woman, yeah.
Speaker 3:There was a male lawyer, his approach would have been very different. Then we have cultural factors. This is one that is a major challenge in Nigeria and in Africa Now. Cultural factors embodies a lot of things. We have harmful traditional practices. We've had a lot of people go through some of these practices shaving the hair when the husband dies, giving her the water from the cups to drink, subjecting her to various inhumane activities or inhumane acts like locking her up in a room, seizing any form of communication, not letting her have a shower for days to prove her innocence, and things like that. Then we also have patriarchy and sexist views. This particular one reinforces male dominance and male superiority, and that is where most of the perpetrators hinge their acts their defence yes that's the major defence for most of them oh, she's a woman, you're supposed to be a father man, after all.
Speaker 3:That is what we grew up knowing. The culture yeah, most male figures. Now, what they say is in our mother's times, in the times of our parents, our mothers were very quiet, they didn't used to say so much, they were seen and not heard. But right now, this generation of women, you want to tell us you're very exposed. Now, this all stems from sexist views, it stems from patriarchy, because it's what they're used to. Sometimes you approach law enforcement, depending, though, and when you tell them oh, madam, you tell them officers, so-so and so happened at home the first thing they ask is who is the complainant? If a complainant is a woman, the next thing they do is madam, you know, this is a family matter. Now you can settle it at home, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:No, that pisses me off a lot.
Speaker 1:Like I'm pissed right now.
Speaker 3:They immediately dismiss it. I've had a one-on-one encounter. Clients, um clients was threatened threatened to life, constantly by her spouse. We went to the police station and the next thing they ask is madam now? So did they talk? Now, don't worry, and you can settle it at home. After all, it's your husband. Organo didn't marry her with your money and that was how they killed. They attempted to kill a stow at the counter. Then we had legal factors. Now, what are legal factors? We have laws.
Speaker 3:Nigeria is one of the countries across the globe that has lots of laws. We are signatory to the nation for the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. We are signatories to the Makoto Protocol. We are signatories to CRPD Convention for Rights of Persons with Disability, various regional laws and even domestic laws. However, our major problem is the absence of implementation. So you see, we have the VAPE Act as a perfect example 2015 Violence Against Persons Prohibition Act. This act is one of the most progressive that seeks to protect and advance the right of women. However, not many states are implementing. They will tell you they have signed into law, but is it workable? The answer is no, so you can't use them in court, but thankfully, in the ACT in Lagos state. They are quite forward-thinking, so these laws are able to. We could use these laws in this particular jurisdiction.
Speaker 3:Then we also have comments like or we have things like the woman's mode of dressing is responsive for issues of gender-based violence to domestic violence, and domestic violence is all encompassing, because a particular person can encounter or be a victim of physical and sexual violence at the same time in the home front. So most of the times you hear things like what were you wearing? Perhaps it's what you were wearing that motivated or invited for actions that you got. And then it makes me wonder what happens to children who were defiled. Then we also have our hybrid legal system. What does that mean?
Speaker 3:I'll take a critical example with Nigeria. Nigeria takes into cognizance statutory, customary and sharia. Most of the times, these three are conflicting. So you have statutory saying something else, you have the customs saying something else, and then you have sharia saying something totally different. So in a bit to match these three, there are lots of challenges that are encountered, and then this also fosters gender-based violence or domestic violence.
Speaker 3:Then we have poverty Poverty for people who are victims of child marriage. They will tell you that one of the reasons is my parents could not afford to send me to school. They could not afford to pay that, so in exchange they had to give me out to social and social person who could take care of me. Think basically, we have political factors, political factors. What does that mean On the representation of women in the polity of a particular country? Nigeria is a clear example. We have very few women in place of power. Now, in that situation or in that instance, it means that we have slimmer chances of changing policies that foster gender-based violence. We saw what happened last year with the laws or the bills.
Speaker 2:Gender equality bill yeah.
Speaker 3:Sent before the House and we saw how they were thrown out. Some based it on nomenclature. They said you have to change the world. You cannot say equality, you should do something different. And all of that.
Speaker 2:And the argument was that you can't say equality because men and women are not equal and women are not equal.
Speaker 3:So basically, these are the contributing factors that fall gender-based violence to domestic violence.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there's a lot to unpack from it. Unpack, but I do like how you connected it both from the community to the tradition, to the policies, to the judiciary, to law enforcement, to lawmaking as well. Lawmaking and I think, nnedi, that's one of the things that we talk about in terms of the different ways in which gender stereotypes are not confined to certain spaces or things. They're actually. They have tentacles everywhere.
Speaker 2:And they are fueled also by the different, will I say the different, whether it's laws, policies, practices, factors, factors, the different factors. Yeah, I think Gladys was already answering the question in terms of the correlation between gender stereotypes and infantile stereotypes.
Speaker 1:Answering questions three and four. Really, yeah, because we'll just say, okay, I think we should just read out the pathogens three and four and then let us just continue, because shall we start talking about the correlation between these stereotypes and violence and domestic violence? And then, stylishly, she had delved into the things we could do differently to turn the tide when she mentioned, like the three laws or the three legal systems currently operational in Nigeria.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was just thinking before we go into that. I think another thing is if she could just expound a bit more now directly into just domestic violence and gender stereotypes. She did, oh, yes, yeah, like I like that she was drawing lessons from the field, because I think when we share those lessons from the field, people tend to appreciate it more, because it's like these are real life examples. It puts a face.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so yes, please. God is, if you could just expound more on this correlation between DV and gender stereotypes, please, with more pictures from the field, would really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Okay. So of course, we are all products of a society that has inflicted us with narrow expectations, prejudicial views, assumptions and these things, these factors continually hamper our day to day living experience, especially for women and girls. Now, the same, like gender stereotypes, are assumptions. They are prejudiced views about the rules expected of a person by virtue of their gender, whether they identify as male or female. But in this context now we'll be basing it on women and girls. Now, some of the things we hear, or some of the words or phrases that are used every now and then, is you could hear things like girls are being born for when they assume the wife role in their matrimonial homes. A woman is not what's much or less married. A woman should be subject to the authority of a man. Could hear the job of a woman is that of a carer and her place is in the kitchen.
Speaker 3:Then you hear things like men are not expected to portray weaknesses or emotions a woman or a girl should not aim so high or acquire so much, especially properties, else male folks would not get married to her. You also hear things like women are not entitled to inheritance, as they themselves are properties or chattels to be inherited. Now, these are some of the phrases that we hear every now and then, and it's very important for us to state that gender stereotyping is harmful and it's also considered as a human rights, gross human rights violation. Most adults grew up today listening to some of these quotes and it has formed a day-to-day experience. It has formed the way that we live. Now, taking it back to gender domestic violence. A man grew up with this notion. A man grew up with his parents or relatives or friends or people within his circle using these phrases as some form of admonition. We've forgotten that they are harmful, and then we use it to correct someone or reprimand someone, and then we accept it as the normal. Now, looking at this and domestic violence, you'll see that there is indeed a link.
Speaker 3:Most of the perpetrators of domestic violence are male folks and if you give them the opportunity to converse with them what you hear, they would replicate most of these quotes. Now this is them advancing domestic violence, both directly and indirectly. For some they don't even know. This is their way of life, this is what they know, this is what they think is correct. So a woman is trying to get, maybe, an added educational qualification and the husband asks her why do you think you need that? Is that even important? After all, you're married, you have children. That should be all you should be aiming for. You shouldn't aim for higher. If she persists or goes ahead, then this action might be met with physical violence. We also have women who have complained that oh, I wasn't in the mood and then my husband forced himself for me and then they ask me, surprisingly is it rape?
Speaker 3:and I tell you yes, it is spousal rape. It's a consent, exactly so any act that is done in the absence of consent. If consent was gotten by way of manipulation or blackmail, you could actually also scrutinize that form of consent. So any consent that is not consent in all its ramification is spousal rape. Last week I was at the community where we went to train a few women on how to become frontline officers for issues of GBV, and when we asked the lead person, the lead woman in the community, what would you do if your husband forces himself for you? As she said, it's my husband now he belongs to me.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I belong to him. So whatever he wants to do, he can do. So this also stems from the lack of information, the fact that they grew up with some of this ideologies ingrained in their minds. Now most domestic violence cases basically have a link with harmful gender stereotypes. Sometimes the women condemn themselves. He beat you up, madam, he beat you up last week, he beat you up today, and you know it's my fault, right, I was talking back at him. I shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 2:That goes to the fact that women shouldn't have a voice, and you know when you're being raised and you're told you can't say or you can't even have an opinion.
Speaker 3:And this transcends even beyond the home. Sometimes we have this play out at schools. You see, for instance, in a class there are boys, there are girls, and then we want to pick a class rep. Which gender is the first to be put out first as a class rep? It's usually the guy or the man, and then the assistant. So that's what gender balance. Let the woman also assist him. So when you ask the hotel, he'll say man, he should be able to do the job. So all of this, the women in this generation are beginning to take bolder steps, were beginning to bring issues, domestic violence, to the front burner. And then, for some male folks who do not buy into this normal, they see it as some form of rebellion. And how do you treat rebellion? You treat rebellion with iron fist, with force to iron.
Speaker 2:Another thing I wanted to look at is we've seen cases of domestic violence, and you're right when you say that a lot of it stems from the patriarchal ideologies, the stereotypes, the framing and the conditioning that we've had over time. But then also in this situation where women find themselves in domestic violence situations, people tend to say why didn't she leave? Why did she not go? And you also see women who stay in those marriages. Some sadly get killed in those marriages. Some are just there enduring and they don't want to leave. At their correlations with stereotypes, there's something you said earlier when you talked about the fact that you know women. We all know that in a lot of our traditions the aspiration that is set for women is just marriage. But what are some of the ways in which gender stereotypes either are also feeds into women staying in violent marriages and not wanting to leave at the end of the day?
Speaker 2:Alright, so you've mentioned, you could draw from your experience as well, and with the work that you do, Definitely, and also for men.
Speaker 1:We've mentioned that there are very few statistically it's really my new numbers. But for balance as well, are there reasons why men stay in abusive marriages as well?
Speaker 3:Well, for women. I'll draw from my experience. One of the reasons is, some would tell you, my religion does not support me to leave. And they tell you, based on my religion, I'm supposed to stay and salvage whatever is left of the whole and ensure that a woman is a carer and a keeper. So I'm supposed to be everything, everything within my power or within my human ability, to ensure that I protect my home at all costs. Some of them, when I interact with them, they tell me oh, I stayed, I'm staying back because of my children.
Speaker 3:But we all know that it's not because of the children. It's because you fear stigmatization, which is what happens a lot. You see people labelling a single mother. You see people labelling women who raised their kids all by themselves. Sometimes they don't even care to dig deep and find out what made her leave, they just automatically feel, oh, it's, it should be her fault. After all, you're supposed to keep and protect your home on all fronts.
Speaker 3:Then we've also had men who stayed back in abusive relationships or situations, but the figures are not so many as you would have with men. So the excuse as religion, the excuse as society, what will people say, is the very common thing. My mom left an abusive marriage and now you want me to leave. It now looks like it's a chain of women who do not stay in their husband's homes, so they suffer and endure untold hardship. We have a client I used to have a client for she Past and it's all channeled towards harmful gender stereotypes and domestic violence. You see, most at times the women are actually the one who are the breadwinners. But the need to just stay married or stay to a man or have a man's name attached to their name is the reason why they stay back. For the male folks, some of them stay back oh, because I want to raise my children, or because my family says it's. It's forbidden for us to leave our spouses, but we rarely get that and society always applaud a man when he leaves an abusive relationship and ventures into another relationship.
Speaker 3:But the same group not extended to a woman. A man could live an abusive relationship in five months and find himself married in another three months, but a woman is expected to remain with the children and keep grooming them and taking care of them, and she's not expected to get married to any other person because, well, it's forbidden because she's a woman. So society puts so much body on the female. It's just so much. Sometimes it's beyond what you can comprehend placing so much body and so much metting out so much hardship on women. All of these things feed into, of course, domestic violence. Because, well, rather than living and being labeled single-moder or being stigmatized as a divorcee, I'd rather stay back. And after all, it's just beating. Right After he beats me, I go to the hospital, tell them I fell down, I get treated and I'm back into the same vicious circle.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a lot to digest and it's really striking. You know the gully of difference between how women are treated when they choose to live in a DV situation and how men are treated when they do the same. You know the same graces are not accorded to the women. So, while all these are very disheartening, you know, great goddess, please could you at this point give us some suggestions on what we can do as a people, as families, as a society, to turn the tide, because these numbers, if they're allowed to continue, then we're going to be recording more dead, more women and girls in the past hairs of this whole situation. So we would appreciate if you could, maybe with lessons from the field you know, give us a piece of suggestions on what to do.
Speaker 3:So one of the recommendations is sensitization and more sensitization. We cannot overemphasize the importance of sensitization and awareness creation. I give you an instance. I've just said one of the remote communities and when we're engaging with them, I asked how many of you are aware of the VIP Act, the Violence Against Persons Prehibition Act? Out of over 50 people seated, none. In fact, they have never heard of it. I said OK, how many of us have heard of NAPTIP? Naptip is the apex body for its National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking in Persons, apex body for elimination of violence, offence of violence against persons. How many of you have heard of NAPTIP? And out of 50, only two people once said oh, I saw on TV. Once another one said I heard over the radio. So this goes to show that these people are not even aware that this.
Speaker 3:We have the structures in place. There is a law that actually is set out to combat or eliminate gender-based violence in whatever form. So there is a need for effective and intentional sensitization. Now, this sensitization is not just for you, don't just gather everyone. It needs to be face by face so you could engage first with the traditional gatekeepers. So that includes the traditional rulers, the youth leaders, the clergy, the women leaders, the ethnic heads. You engage with them first and ensure that they grasp this message. After that it will be very easy to cascade this message down to even the least person in the community. And also, I believe so much in catch them young. What does that mean? It means reaching young adolescents or young persons with the same anti-gender-based violence or anti-domestic violence messages. It's very important to get to them early, before they get indoctrinated with a negative ideology, because then it will be very difficult to detach them.
Speaker 3:I give you an instance. I visited a school in Nassau State and while engaging with the students, a little boy raised up his hands and said I want to ask a question, ma. I said what's your question? Then he said why is it that every time we talk about gender-based violence, we always say women, women and girls? Why is it so, and don't you think that sometimes women are also the problem? Now, this is coming from an under 15. And I told him. I gave him a few examples. I said OK, when someone hits another person, regardless of who it is, whether it's male or female, is that good or is that bad? He said it bad. And after giving him those various instances. I told him. I said issues of gender-based violence are not limited to females alone. However, the reason you care more of females is because the numbers are more for females. Then I tried to break down one in three women compared to. There's a report given by the sexual assault referral center in Lagos where it says one in 10 boys is a victim of sexual abuse, but for the girls it's one in four. So I tried to do a physical example for him and after that I asked you understand? He says oh, now I really understand. Thank you, so that they need for us to catch them young.
Speaker 3:There's also a need for us to ensure that these messages are in a form that is accessible by all, so when they speak a particular dialect, we should make these messages in their dialect for them to be able to comprehend. It's very important, too, that we we place some form of, we ignite some form of commitment on the parts of traditional rulers to be able to eliminate issues of gender-based violence Prior to 2023. We didn't used to have so many traditional rulers delving into these issues. They were all fixated on customs, they were fixated on traditions, but right now they've gotten the message and it's it's very amazing when I get calls from some of those traditional rulers and they tell me oh see, what happened at my community. How can you help? It means that we'll be able to buy them into this message, which is the normal, which is what also had pastors and imams also call and say you know what? This is happening? How do we help? How do we reach out to our people? How do we ensure that we get more people to listen or understand this message?
Speaker 3:Another thing is there's a need for us to train people. We talk about issues of gender-based violence and we feel everybody understands what we're talking about. It's not true. Not so many will understand. So I'm just here. They see it on news gbv. They've come again with another women. Yeah, it's on the line.
Speaker 3:But if we're able to handpick persons from particular places, especially communities or states that have the high cases, and then we train these people with the right message, equip them with the relevant tools that they need to become frontliners in those respective locations, it will go a long way. If you recruit only women, the men will see it as it's a women affair. Or if you recruit the men, including old and young, they would embrace it and say that this is a general problem that we need to address. Also, we should be as a country. We should, and civil societies need to push more for better implementation of our laws. We have lots of them, we don't need to make any other, we just need to implement.
Speaker 3:And there's a need to train our law enforcement officers or law enforcement agents. Thankfully, we have organizations like our agents is like NAPTIP, that are doing a fantastic job. However, we would wish that others would be able to join them on board and make it easier. And then even on the national level, there is a need for intentional budgetary allocation for issues of social justice. So you see the budget for, yeah, and you see that not so much is allocated to creating more safe spaces where you could keep victim while we are trying to access justice.
Speaker 3:You see not so many sexual assault referral centers. Perhaps the closest to you is 40 minutes away. A girl was raped in a community. How do you get her to that place by that time of the night Before morning? A lot has happened with the evidence and it's very difficult to prove those cases. Then there's also a need for us to work hand in hand with law enforcement. We shouldn't see them as enemies. Most people do that, but we should provide them with the adequate information and also bring them on board changes that are occurring, even the civil space.
Speaker 3:We regard to these issues that way to be able to curb the dismissive attitude that people experience when they go to report cases, and also there is a need for us to, especially for law enforcement, to look more into investigating, persecuting and sentencing perpetrators. We've had instances when people went to complain oh, my daughter was defiled by my landlord, and then what you get is we are not sure we're able to go to that area right now because, xyz, there are no logistics on ground and all of that. So it's very important that they see this as a responsibility. I'm very happy that the Nigerian police and even the Civil Defense Corps now have a gender desk Although I wish that this would be replicated at all divisions across the country and there is also a need for Nigeria to call a state of emergency on gender-based violence. We have gotten to that point. Yes, countries in Australia have done it. We need to call a state of emergency on issues South.
Speaker 2:Africa has also done that, because they also have hybrids of. Gvv. Yes, so gender-based violence is declared to be an emergency in South Africa.
Speaker 3:Until we see it as an emergency, not many, not more, not much attention will be given to it. And also, we should teach consent. There is need to teach consent. Most females these days, most males these days, do not know how to handle rejection. We've had people who were victims of oh, I was just passing by, he greeted me with his friends, I did not answer him because I don't know who he is and the next thing is I was putting a corner and I was beating up or I was raped. We've also had women. We've also had men who are victims of the same plight. So we should teach consent. Consent is very important. Perhaps a penalty should also be attached to when there is no consent, because we've had situations where there is this stretch in accessing justice. There's so much stretch in accessing justice. A case happened now and before justice is gotten is three years after.
Speaker 1:It's 10 years. Yes, Exactly.
Speaker 3:If it's three years, it's even fast, it's fast, it's 10 years. I got justice for three years and they're like, wow, that's really fast.
Speaker 1:So you can imagine that's wrong and this is someone who is going to try to avoid physical abuse and so many other things.
Speaker 3:There's a need to also fund structures that support gender-based violence work, such as safe spaces, such as ready vehicles and all of that. We've had situations where there's no place to take the person to. So, madam, just try and stay in the house. Just be careful. Shall you know, this is weekend, so just be careful until Monday when they're sending people. You'll be caught. There are no safe spaces to keep you or to keep the children. So these are some of my recommendations. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:I wanted to notice that before coming, the bit about catching them young. I think that also moves into families as well.
Speaker 2:There's also the family responsibility One just doing away with the whole preferences for boys over girls or sons over daughters. I think that has to start from the home. Also, the issue of male dominance. And because even in the family setting Gladys has given us a number of examples, but even in our day-to-day interactions we see the issues around privileged position and power. They are formed even from the families and raising your sons. Raising sons to understand that women are not less than them, Women are not lower than them. Raising them to understand also that at the end of the day, whether you get married or not, you should not treat women as less than you, Because when you see someone as less than you are or then there's a superiority complex with it and with that superiority mindset is the feeling that I can do anything I can to this person.
Speaker 2:It also calls to mind the issue now, the debate around bright prize. There are people and these are conversations happening even at the very top, most level, and the discussion around should bright prize be collected? Because a lot of times when you put bright prize in the mix now, some people ask for outrageous bright prizes, which in itself contributes to the problem, but then you also have the whole foundation behind bright prize. It connotes a sense of ownership. It's a sense of exchange. I don't care how you try to make it sound cute, it's like buying something. And you see that a number of men also hammer on that and say but I married you and put you in my house. If you know how that sentence I detested so much, you didn't put me in your house, I walked into the house I chose to go with you on this journey and I chose to be together with you.
Speaker 2:You didn't put me in your house. So I think those narratives are also things that we need to challenge, because for me I would say scrap bright prize, because scrap it completely. What's the essence of it? Why you pay it to be with someone? In the western world Nobody's paying bright prize for anything. It's two people who commit to each other to go on a journey, because the whole essence under bright prize is a sense of ownership and control. I kind of bought you so I own you, and because I own you, I'll do as I please with you. Not many people are exposed and lighting or progressive enough to know that, okay, a bright prize does not mean this person is a property. That's not what it means. So I am one of those people who I align with the global discourse right now around eliminating bright prizes completely from marriage.
Speaker 2:Because then, people, we see a lot of these conversations online and people tell people oh, I'm the one who married you and put you in the house In my house. Please don't say that. Oh, please don't tell me that.
Speaker 1:And then, apart from the men, the husband saying oh, I married you, I put you in my house, it's also, well, still the men no, the women who are involved. It's also families of females going over. We invested so much in it to pay us Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly what? And then even what? And even when you talk about families, it's also the fact that a lot of families are not safe spaces for children or for daughters I beg your pardon who are in abusive marriages. A lot of families are not safe spaces for them. You see, people say stay in it. Every marriage has a challenge, so somebody's killed, and that's one thing we also need to sensitize families about. If your kids or your children are in abusive situations, please welcome them home, in fact, rescue them home and give them a safe space.
Speaker 2:Marriage is not a do or die. It is a beautiful thing, but it's not a do or die. It's not something that people should die on the altar of, and I think families need to learn to understand that. It's the same thing, even when we talk about men in our conversation with Obi and Casey, and when we talk about why can't men cry. It's also part of the problem. Men, when abusive situations, cannot come out to say they can't speak because they don't want to be scared. Exactly so it has on both sides. It doesn't serve us. It doesn't serve both sides at all.
Speaker 3:I just tell you I do with you on the bright prize one and also had women that their families told them. Now that you're getting married, I hope you know there's no space for you anymore in this house For you. I was coming to that. It had people like that, so it means whatever. I simply sort it out by all means.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's sad, honestly, it's so sad. We need to do away with these phrases of there's no space in this house, so I stayed in my husband's house. Yeah, you stay in your husband's house as they are going. Look where you can't come back here. You don't have any inheritance. No, you don't know. I know we need to kill those things.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know whoever said that a woman getting married automatically means that she doesn't have any, any alliance or any ties with her family. It's ridiculous to think that, though.
Speaker 2:It's as if her family becomes unimportant, or as if the family sees her as oh yeah, now you go, we don't have anything to do with you and so I applaud families who have seen situations where families in fact I know someone who, when the marriage, when the father found out that she was being abused by her husband, he went himself to pick up his child and he took her back to his house I was like this is not what I signed up for. I didn't sign up for you to keep. I didn't sign up for you to kill my child. That's not what marriage is about. Yes, and we've seen that women who share about how you know, I can't leave because there's no support system, versus the women who are able to leave because there is a support system. So it's the addressing. It needs to be all-encompassing, from family to society, to policies. I like that gladi highlighted law enforcement, because most time yeah, you keep hearing it's a family matter. It no longer becomes a family matter when someone's life is in danger.
Speaker 2:Now, that's a that is. That is the government's matter. It's no longer fun. It's the state, is a matter for the state when someone's like. Exactly whether it's the man or the woman whose life is in danger, it belongs. It becomes a matter of the state, no longer yeah.
Speaker 1:This brings me to the question, gladius, about the, the drive, the key drivers you mentioned. You said something about the lack of harmony between Laws, of policies. So we have, at every stage, there are three operational policies, or all law styles affecting the decision-making processes or the enforcement processes, which include the, the statutory law, the Constitution yeah, the customary, and then the penal code yeah, which is then charade reason. Is there a way to To kind of harmonize, you know, is there a way to push for some sort of harmony, because what I would like it, or, yes, rick is really the crime everywhere, not south, if west what I would like it or yes, the family of a child is a crime everywhere.
Speaker 2:Everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I would like it. Or yes, domestic physical violence on someone who can defend themselves, be it a male or female, is wrong, is a crime everywhere. So is there a way to push for some sort of harmony? Do away with the difference? This is framed on my culture, this is framed on on the religion. If they were to approach the Nigerian Legislation, you know, and for harmonious points, you know, let let what's wrong be wrong. Rape is rape, no matter how it is. Garb is there, is there. Is that something we can? We can do on that point?
Speaker 3:It all boils down to the way we we enact laws in our country. So this would go down to even our constitution. The 1999 Constitution of the Republic of Nigeria cemented it, provides for this state and he recognizes freedom of religion. Now, the people who perpetrate some of this acts and hide it under the guise of religious doctrines, customary doctrines and all of that, and they kind of have the backing of the, of the grand nom, so to speak.
Speaker 3:We are going to attempt to harmonize this. It means that there has to be a single legislation. Perhaps we have a national gender policy in Nigeria. I'm not sure how many MDAs in various states have put it into work already was like 2021, so in the absence of that, you see that they are gaps.
Speaker 3:When the victim Was enacted under the administration of President Good Luck, a village in that and 2015, we saw how long it took for some parts of the country to embrace. Some have not even embraced, some have not signed it in. And even after signing it in, how do you get it to work? They will tell you oh, my religion supports this. They tell you oh, my tradition supports this. And because we are a country of, we are an ethnically diverse society, we can make it a bit difficult to coerce certain people. Even the United Nations Convention for the Rights of a Child that was made as a signature to and which is distilled and got the child's rights act, some states do not recognize the provisions. See, for instance, on the age of adulthood. Your constitution says 18 years.
Speaker 3:There is another law, that is young persons law, operational in another part of the country. There is the child's right and some other parts of the country have it, have have a different Ideology of a notion about this particular laws. They tell you well, I am permitted to marry so long as the girl is mature. Now, what does maturity mature? Is? There is a definition for maturity? The fact that she can speak or the fact that she stopped crawling and can now walk? Is that maturity? So it's, it's. It's going to be quite complex and, because of the society we found ourselves, it's not something that cannot be done, but the the process is going to be a bit tasking and lengthy. That's if we, as a people, are willing to commit to it, because I think it's high time we commit to it.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much, gladys, carry out yeah.
Speaker 2:Nettie, you know how I feel about these conversations and just. But I'm really glad that Gladys has no pun intended, but I'm glad that Gladys has runs a lot of the issues to the fore but at the same time it's also highlighting what must be done. Yes, we can't continue to have the spades of domestic violence or gender based violence as we see it, and I think one of the things we try to do on this podcast is to let people know, our listeners know, that gender stereotypes Does affect all hats of our lives, everyone.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it affects all of us. It contributes to a lot of the ills that we see and experience and it's the reason why we must collectively do something about it. I'm sorry, all those harmful stereotypes. We need to, we need to turn the tide on them. It won't kill us if we, if we do away with the harmful stereotypes. In fact, we'll have a more progressive, more harmonious, more productive, more healthy Society if we, if we actually walk against them. So I just want to thank Gladys for for coming on and doing great justice.
Speaker 2:This is very topic the link between gender stereotypes and domestic violence and GBV, unpacking them, drawing from experiences from the field and just what we must do to move forward. I think it's been a really amazing conversation so far very heavy, very intense, but which is something, and that's the reality of this, discussions we can't oh yes, no, we can't, they have to, because then we have to. We have to hit the nail on the head to let people know that this is how bad the situation is yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know Nettie any any last words, or I think Gladys has any last words. Before we go into the question, our mystery questions.
Speaker 1:No, honestly Beyond the quality today. So thank you so much yeah glad to say.
Speaker 3:Yes, I must say that, kimia and Nettie, you're doing an amazing job with Gendrish. Now this is the first time having podcasts that is channeled at addressing issues around gender stereotypes, around women's rights, around children's rights, and all what we usually have randomly are just they pick this, they pick this Topics based on the season. But I mean, this is a time. This is time resources and Expertise focused at deliberately and intentionally Attempting to address this issue, and I must commend both of you well done.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, so can we okay, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So, gladys, every time a guest comes on the podcast, we always ask them if your life was a movie, a book, a song or even a poem, what will the title be? I'll take it again if your life was a movie, a music so that's a song, a book or poem what will the title be? And why? Wow?
Speaker 3:Well, I think for me it would be Daily adventure. For me it's. Every day is new for me, both on my job and in my day-to-day leaving. I work in gender space quite a right, yes but Every day is I don't see everything like I've seen something previously and I say, oh, I'm sure this is what I'll get to. They know, and I like to aim quite high. I am someone who likes to challenge herself, so every phase for me is like an adventure I want to unravel, I want to see what's in it. So, yeah, that's why I picked that caption daily adventure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very fitting and very yeah, very Okay, nettie, back to you, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, guys, we've. We were happy. Yeah, it's mixed feelings for me, though, but we're happy to see that we come to the end of this amazing episode. We do hope you've learned a thing or two. You know about gender-based violence and Gender stereotypes and domestic violence or and or gender-based violence as well. So we hope that, if nothing else, you you've taken some pointers on how to treat people Around you on and then on how to help drive this topic, so that we can all achieve change as a people, as a society and Want to thank Gladys passionately, and we do hope that when next we call you, you will, you know, quickly Run to us and enjoy yourself with us.
Speaker 1:So next week We'll be joined by very special guests to discuss its topic, a very lovely topic that I'm sure everyone will Benefit from. So I'll give you guys a clue it's on women and finance, but who give you the whole thing next week? Yeah, so if you have any question, any comment, criticism, story, just anything you'd love to share with us, even if it's just your experiences on these negative Gender stereotypes, please click the link below to drop us a message, or you can write us at genderishp at gmailcom. You can also follow us on our socials, on IG as a genderishp, on X a genderishp, and Remember that just an equitable world is possible. We will play our part without discrimination or bias. Kemi.
Speaker 2:And on that note we signed out to go.
Speaker 1:Bye, bye guys.