Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
9. Breaking the Glass Ceiling in Nigerian Finance.
In this episode, we unlock the untold narratives of gender parity and equality in Nigeria's bustling business and finance sectors with our special guests: Ebele Onyedika, the non-interest banking expert, and Jack Nzeribe, the support services guru. As we traverse the landscape of female entrepreneurship, we dig into the effectiveness of existing financial support systems, assessing their true impact on women's business ventures. We wrap up by drawing inspiration from global success stories, contemplating the conscious efforts required to transform conversations about gender equality into concrete actions. Don't miss out on this pivotal dialogue aimed at inspiring change and championing equality in Nigeria's professional spheres.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone, welcome to Genderish. This is the show designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time. It's your usual suspect. This is Nnedi, and with me today is it's Kemi.
Speaker 2:Glad to have all of you join us this week.
Speaker 2:And on this episode, we would be looking at the topic on gender equality in business and finance Realities versus the myths. So we'll be exploring discussions around. Do gender inequalities exist in the financial and the business sector? If they do, what are the options in terms of remedying it? We hear a lot about financial inclusion and gender equity. What does that really mean? And our guests today will be doing justice to this topic so that, at the end of the day, more people can be empowered on making finance and business gender equal or equitable.
Speaker 1:Yes, so without further ado, we'll let our guests introduce themselves, so starting with Mr Abelay from Yadikah.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone, good evening. My name is Abelay. I work in the financial services industry and currently heading one of the branches of a non-interest bank here in Abuja, nigeria. I started my banking career in 2008 with Diamond Bank PLC. I am passionate about supporting women-owned businesses and my career in the bank over the years has afforded me that opportunity. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, abelay, welcome, welcome, welcome. And then Mr Jack Zeribay.
Speaker 4:Ladies, thank you for having me on. My name is Jack Zeribay. I work with a company that provides majestic support services for the financial services sector in Lagos. Well, we operate nationwide, but I'm based in Lagos. I also run a small consulting practice focusing mostly on coaching individuals and businesses. I'm a certified life coach, strategic business and entrepreneurship coach and a cognitive and neuro therapy practitioner. I'm just passionate about people in general, how people can be better versions of themselves. So that is my focus and also my passion, and thank you for having me on. Oh you're very welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you, guys. I like how you guys are sounding so humble, so ordinary, but we know how great you guys are and how experienced and you know awesome you are in your respective fields. We're super glad to have you here with us today to to dissect this topic and, without further ado, I would like us to just get into the business of the day. So we'll start with the first question. So, in relation to your sector, that's, business and finance sector, what does gender equality look like to you? Let's begin with Jack this time around.
Speaker 4:Gentlemen, first, this time right, it's gender. So my sector specifically. I find that it's a male dominated sector due to the nature of the business that we do. We do have quite a few women in the logistics industry, but in more administrative capacities. Most tend to not be in the operations field. However, the customers that we serve, which are primarily the banks and that the central bank we do have a lot of female representation and very powerful female representation actually in a few of the banks and get to interact. I found that women tend to be more meticulous, detail oriented in our interactions. The men tend to be a little bit more bullish because of the nature of the work that we do. That's what it looks like in my sector in my part of the woods.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting that you would draw this contrast between gender in relation to your experience in the sector. You said women tend to be more meticulous, while men are more bullish. Would you say this brings some sort of a needed, well-needed or well-rounded balance to your business?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean it is really about structure. Logistics is about planning. The meticulousness does have a huge advantage in that regard. You want to be organized, you want to be efficient. Dealing with people who are that way makes life so much easier. It makes planning easier. It makes things easier to get done.
Speaker 4:However, because of the nature of the people that you need to deal with you're talking about the college drivers or custodians, people who work in a lower income bracket they tend to be very stubborn. They tend to be more aggressive, more difficult to wrangle as far as planning and logistics is concerned, that dynamic creates a bit of a contrast. In fact, to share a little story, there was a particular client who rotates through heads of the units from time to time. In the past, this client had had men running the unit and then they switched to a female lead for the team. I found that since they made that switch about seven, eight years ago, every person that has occupied that position since then has been a woman. I would figure that the bank had seen something or come to terms with something regarding the role of a woman in that role and the difference in the way that unit was run as a result.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting. Who would that talk to Jack, while we'll listen to it?
Speaker 3:All right. My job function is basically in business development. I would say that I would say that, based on my experience, there have been a lot of women represented in this space. Recently, in the bank where I work, there's been a lot of women heading various departments who have more women than men in my organization at the moment yes, a recent kind of restructuring the system and you find a lot of women being division heads, group heads. I believe there must have been something that the management noticed to enable them to have more women in these places.
Speaker 3:I want to say at this point that every period of time we'll see that women are noturals. Women are noturals. Whatever you hand to a woman to deal with, she notures it and brings something exceptional out of it, except if it's an individual who is really not passionate about what she does. But I've seen women in executive positions who have done exceptionally well and people are taking notice of that. Most women in the banking industry right now are handling more executive positions. We might not be at a 50-50 distribution yet, but we're heading there, we're heading there. I would say that in my industry there isn't so much of gender inequality, because the banking industry in my own department is a very driven sector. If you're able to distinguish yourself in your area and the results or outputs that you put out there, you will find out that you will be assigned much more to handle. As you keep distinguishing yourself, you'll get more opportunities. You'll get more avenues to work to prove yourself, to post better results. That's how it's been for me in my sector. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. This is very interesting to hear because I believe the reports or the conversations I've had have shown that there was some sort of heavy discrepancy in the banking and financial sector. But to hear you guys take the sides that you've taken saying that it's comforting to hear. I'm glad that we're having this conversation, I'm glad that we can put this out there for people to know that we're tilting towards equality, which is the goal in this. Tell me, was this as interesting for you as it was for me?
Speaker 2:It's good to hear Jack and Bailey Again. I know that, yes, in the last few years in Nigeria, we've seen more women rise to the top in the banking sector, but then again, when I make reference to the International Monetary Fund statistics on the gender gap that we see, in terms of whether women in banking or even in financial services or financial inclusion, there is still a margin, there is still a wide gap. So when Bailey says, yeah, we're tilting towards that, because, again, if you look at the CEOs we have in the banking sector, for example, you have more men than women. But, yes, we've seen a rise of women more than we've ever seen in the past. And it would be interesting to know also because, again, when I hear so one looking at what the statistics is telling us globally, because it even says that more women are struggling to advance one for equal pay and progression at central banks. Women still struggle. There is such a gap between men and women. But I think it also leads credence to the fact that we're seeing possibilities. So I'm not going to knock. I wouldn't say I was surprised, but I would say that I feel that there's still a gap because statistics tell us that.
Speaker 2:But have we made some progress, yes, but another thing again that I couldn't hear I couldn't help but hear is the fact that there's still some level of stereotypes. Women are not. Women are meticulous, men are bullish, and it still speaks to the stereotypes and I know that's conversation for another day Like if we were to dev, if we were to unpack it. Why are women considered that way? Or why is it that are there no men that would be meticulous? I'm sure some men would argue and say, oh, I'm also meticulous, and some women can also be bullish as well in terms of handling. But it just also paints the picture for us on how much work we've done and how much work needs to be done.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly as we continue to progress. So, basically, that's just what I hear when I hear Jack and Ibele speak, and it's always just good to draw people from the sector who can actually give an insight on what's happening. All right, so that takes us to our second question, the beat about financing. So what is the current practice regarding loans and business financing? Would you say that it is a level playing field for both genders? So we started with Jack the first time, so let's start with Bayley. I'm from your experience in the sector when it comes to access to loans or access to financing for business or for whatever, would you say it's a level playing field or no?
Speaker 3:All right, thank you, kemi. Well, I would say it's. I may be unable to take a position, you know, concerning if it's a level playing ground or if it's not a level playing ground. I am aware that some banks are deliberate about this. You know they have propositions or products that you know tend to favor women in business. You know more. I know first bank has first gem fund scheme for women who are in the, you know, smes, you know sector to enable them access facilities at a single digit. Also aware that I think Stambick IBTC, if I recall, has also something you know for women under the blue blossom community, you know, providing about 50% concentration on loans or, you know, fees for women in specific business under the SME. Now the question is this what is the percentage of you know businesses owned by women? Because you know this is what will you know enable us understand if it's a level playing ground or if it's not a level playing ground? Now, if we have just about I think I came across a review by the NBS you know that's the National Bureau of Statistics saying that just about 40% of SME businesses are owned by Nigerian women, you know there's a bit of imbalance there. So, exactly so if women are not present in this space, this really not so much. You know the banks you know can do. Now, looking at the you know half-year, you know, economy report here in Nigeria about the five largest sectors in Nigeria is agricultural, taking about 20%, manufacturing about 15%, and then you know information and communication, and you know, before you even get to trade. Now the question is how many women, or how many women own businesses play in these sectors, because these sectors is, you know, these are also the, you know what the banks take into cognizance as they come up with products in the, you know, in the assets, you know, space. So if we don't have a lot of women who have businesses in these major sectors, then how are they going to be able to access the facilities? You know that the banks have, you know, rolled out in a lot of this. So we need women to be more bullish about setting up more structured businesses with class association plans. Over a period of time.
Speaker 3:I have observed that, you know, most women own businesses start on a very small scale At third, three to five years to seven years. There's been a lot of expansion, but we have, you know, women still running these businesses as small-scale businesses, and what I mean by this is this I've had to advise a lot of women okay, try and keep, have a proper you know, you know bookkeeping record in the first place. And I tell them, I said, when you see that your businesses has you know, has you know, has expanded to a certain level, you need to, you know, engage in service of a lawyer, of an auditor, because you need to be able to keep track of what comes into your business and what goes out of your business. You need to be able to keep track of what's the business generates over the year, the revenue. You need all of that to understand your business, because those are the information that would enable you access facilities or even know if you need a facility, if you have a funding gap. So, but we have women owned businesses that are quite sizable, but these businesses are run. They are being run, you know, daily as small businesses. It makes it difficult. So, yeah, I can't really say for now if it's a level, you know, playing ground, but the opportunities are there.
Speaker 3:The question is are women, are they well positioned to take advantage of these opportunities? Are they knowledgeable to take advantage of these opportunities, you know? So I think for me that's what it is for me we need more women in this space. We need more women to be deliberate about, you know, taking up these opportunities when they present themselves.
Speaker 3:The banks, lots of the banks have. Even back in Diamond Bank we had a proposition called the Diamond woman. There was an array of products under that proposition for women, but a lot of women didn't know about it. They were not even properly, you know, positioned to take advantage of. You know of the, you know the products under that proposition at the time. So I want to see, you know, maybe in some times to come, where you know women or banks are more deliberate about putting what out there and letting these women know what needs to be done. I also know that Access Bank at some point had a proposition, you know, for women owned businesses. If a business has about 60% of the shares owned by a woman, you can also access, you know, that facility at the discount. So you know, you know women would need to be more deliberate about structuring our businesses and being better positioned to access, you know these opportunities when they come up. I mean, that's just it basically for me.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, billy. Before we go to Jack, I feel like you brought out some yeah, you brought out some really powerful things. Number one thank you for highlighting that Nigerian banks over the past few years have been intentional about creating opportunities for women in business.
Speaker 2:And that's true, there are a number of them and I hope that you know those who are listening can actually go and look for these banks and find out what the opportunities are. But you also mentioned two strong things and that is one positioning women, because I think a lot of women do not even have the capacity, not by their own will, but just by virtue of the system, do not have the capacity to take advantage of some of these things. So it speaks very strongly to the need to better educate women about the opportunities.
Speaker 2:But, even as you speak, something that comes out strongly is the need for financial literacy for women. So kudos to you for talking to women about having. What did you call it again? Is it the book? What book? It skipped my head. A credit book, Exactly.
Speaker 3:A credit book, Sorry that just left that disappeared. It's all gone Because you find out people, you know women, you know we don't keep people. A lot of people don't keep records of the influence into the business and the output. So how do you make profits?
Speaker 2:How do you make profit Is?
Speaker 3:it more than your income.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for highlighting that and also the need and I hear your passion when you say a lot of businesses by women remain small for so many years when there are. Actually, it's obvious that they should be playing at a bigger scale. So thank you for highlighting that. Jack, do you want to throw weigh in on this from your own standpoint and your experience and your field? Is there a level playing field we're going to talk about, you know, financial inclusion and all of that.
Speaker 4:Well, I don't think I can top what Billy has said. However, from a lay perspective and as a man, I would say I notice more advertisements for women products in the financial sector. I notice the effort. In fact, I think philosophically how I would put it is that you can see the momentum of the pendulum swinging in the other direction. It may not be at a parity basis yet as far as access is concerned, but you can definitely see the momentum. You can see a lot more consideration when it comes to having products that are tailored to give a better chance for opportunity specifically to women. In fact, it's a bit of jealousy or envy, I think. Sometimes you think about it, man. Where are the specific products for men?
Speaker 4:And that's another thing now going in the direction of women Mother's Day, women's Day, children's Day Men don't have a day.
Speaker 4:It's a joke that we have amongst ourselves, but it is good to see. I found it very interesting the conversations around women not being encouraged to keep records and to do better. I'd always had that perception that women generally did better with those things, even in the office, in my office or in interacting with other clients, especially the women on that side, like I mentioned earlier, there's a lot more meticulousness and a lot more detail orientation. So I would have naturally assumed that if anybody had their ducks in a row, it would be the female-owned businesses and things. But, like I said, I struggle to find reliable data in Nigeria because a lot of our data is tainted. The realities of what we see in everyday life may not be exactly what you would find if you compare that against data that is publicly available, and so I'm happy, I'm glad that there are products available. I do still think, yes, that more will come. I think more opportunities will come, but generally, yes, I agree completely with what the bill has said.
Speaker 1:So this brings me to the question. Can we sorry not to cut you off. This brings me to the question because there's something kind of uniform with what you both have said. Something keeps jumping out at me education, and then the financial education for financial literacy. Is that sentence right Now Jack has said something from the male perspective.
Speaker 1:Is it right to say that the male gender, the male angle of the financial sector, just assumes that women have everything figured out? Would it be right to say that this is why there hasn't been, or this is why we're only now just paying attention to developing and designing and advertising more products? Say Lord, for women specifically? Is it a problem of assumption or you know it's something else? Then, secondly, why is it that when products are designed for women, it's mainly SMEs, smes, smes? Is it that it's the fault of the women? Is it that they don't know? Or is it that women are just afraid of jumping into the bigger sectors? You know taking, you know biting, you know taking bigger bites of the financial and asset management apple Guys, could you help us share more like in this?
Speaker 3:Okay, nadi, let me speak on, you know, on your second question. Sme businesses in Nigeria is a big pool and you know, if you recall, I said you know earlier on that most female-owned businesses start on a small scale, you know, before they go into a larger scale. So at that point, at that SME level, you find a lot of women there and some even tend to, you know, remain there over the years when their businesses have actually outgrown the SME stage. You know various banks have, you know various banks have ways to segment these SMEs. You know medium, small medium. You know various banks have you know ways, you know to segment them, maybe based on turnover or, you know, number of staff and things like that. So I think different banks have different ways to segment, you know them. But over a period of time I've seen that women, you know they have a business to just want to remain in that. You know small, you know at a small level. I mean, this is what they are familiar with, you know, and even when you have had conversations with them and see, oh, see, we have a product that can take you from here to here, we have this, we have that that can even, you know, enable you, you know, go into other business opportunities, explore other business opportunities. They'll be like you know, this is what they are familiar with. This is what they want to do. Okay, okay, this is what you're used to. Can we help you structure your business better?
Speaker 3:I mean, you have people who have no, you know, incorporated, you know, entity. They run their business on their personal, in their personal accounts. They don't have requisite information on tax avoidance, you know, not evasion. Now, you know they don't have. You know, you know they don't have to understand you know of how to properly. You have people who don't know how much cash comes into the business daily. We've had customers who come to access a facility and they say, oh, I am like what? Give me an idea of what you think your business generates in a week. And they don't know, because people make payment traders, their buyers come to buy goods, they make cash payments and they keep it in their shops and also make purchases of you know of goods they want to sell with the cash. So this money is don't come into the banking system and so when they come to you for a facility you run, you know the turnover to access the cash flow, you can't see anything, you know. So, yeah, you can't see anything. So most of the businesses start as SMEs and if, if people are mostly women and not properly positioned to understand why they should structure their business and have a clear succession plan, they'll continue to operate at that level. They will continue to operate at that level.
Speaker 3:So what we also do is not just about we also do financial advisory. You know everyone is about cutting costs in their business, but there are certain costs you cannot cut because it's your business may continue to remain in the dark. Like auditors, you need an auditor to do your financials Every year. It's important if you get to a certain level, or else you just may not know what your business is all about. You may not have an understanding of what your business generates in a year the revenue, or if you're even making a loss. So that's it basically.
Speaker 1:That's very enlightening. So who's thank you? Yeah, thank you very much, Ebele. So that means there's an education gap. Basically, there is an education gap.
Speaker 4:I mean, I would think, in addition to the education, the potential education gap, I think that the why of establishing a business needs to be addressed, right. So this is not even just specific to women, but it probably fits into that category. More often, the majority of the small business owners may have started these businesses as a way to subsidize their income, as opposed to, you know, trying to grow a business right. So you have a lot of people who have set up this quote unquote side hustle and it starts to bloom into something else, right? Or as it means to just get some pocket money, or as it means to just, you know, empower themselves to become more independent, as opposed to the desire to grow a business, right. And so if the admission statement of that individual or that business isn't to expand or to grow into a larger entity, that lack of vision will not promote the level of detailing that Ebele is referring to, for instance, as to, oh, I need to do this, I need to have my house in order, I need to, you know, look into this, because in a lot of cases, this may be a side hustle. It may be a business of opportunity, for instance, you know. So I just wanted to drop that in there from from. From that standpoint, the why of anything is just as important as and if you don't address that actually, then you will continue to have that disparity or that gap.
Speaker 4:You know, someone mentioned earlier about not having female CEOs, as many female CEOs of the banks as the men. I do see the trajectory shifting because you have more female executives now at the executive level. You know, general managers, executive level over the last several years. In fact, even at the central bank, the more senior people are female executives in a lot of departments. And you also have the first director of current female director of currency was two cycles ago and now they have a current director of currency who's also female in the history of CBN. So you went from having no female you know directors of currency to having two within the span of six years, you know. So when I talk about the pendulum shifting, there is a shift now in mindset, action, where some people are coming out of school and deciding that I want to build a career. You know that takes me all the way to the top and I can have it all.
Speaker 4:I can have my family, I can have my relationships and I can have my business or I can build my empire, as opposed to before, where the mentality was in a lot of cases that you know I'm going to, I'm going to build a family and then, if I'm able to, I may have a business or I may grow my career, at least a certain point.
Speaker 4:I think what I've always had an issue with generally in society was the notion that women can't do what they're supposed to do or what they want to do. I think the idea of forcing people to conform to a certain norm it rubs me the wrong way. I think that not everybody is built to do certain things, but if somebody wants to do a thing, they should be allowed to do so. They should be empowered to do so, not forced to live a particular type of life or forced to come to follow a certain type of standard. And I brought that up because, for instance, I was looking at labor laws the other day at the office. I was trying to address a particular issue and I was with the HR and I was looking at some of the labor laws and there was a particular act of a clause in the labor act that spoke specifically about labor laws regarding women, however archaic it is, but one of the things I noticed, for instance, was women are not allowed to work night duty or night shift, for instance.
Speaker 4:I found it interesting that there was a specific clause in the labor act, or sequence of clauses in the labor act, guiding what women are Exactly to what women are allowed to do or not allowed to do, and I think that as a society, we're still dealing with the ripples of some of those laws that have been so embedded in the psyche of society that it may take, it's taking a little while, but I think more and more people are coming around to the idea that, look, I don't have to be this way, I can be this way, I can run a business, I can grow a business, I can develop an empire. It doesn't have to be either, or it doesn't have to be limited in this way or in this manner. So I'm just dropping that in here.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, jack and Ibele. So, jack, I just wanted to pick up on what you just said, because then it takes us into the next question. It just segues very nicely into the next question and it's just thank you for highlighting the fact that people should not be forced to confirm or confirm to certain norms that we've grown up with, because, again, part of the challenge with that is it is limiting in itself, but also highlighting that, yes, we are seeing growth, we are seeing progress. Granted, we're not where we used to be 10 years ago, 20 years ago, in terms of representation at the executive level or in finance. But even the law is very interesting on women not working night shift. But the good thing is, even when you look around, you see even women, security women who do security work, who actually work night shift. So I think that's a very poignant point to walk away, coming from a man, especially in terms of saying people should be allowed to go in the direction that they deem fit, whether it's in terms of finance, whether it's in business, whether it's in the workforce, because, at the end of the day, I think people's best expression are found, or the truest forms of ourselves are found, in places where we're able to really thrive without being held back.
Speaker 2:So that takes us to the next question, where we look at the law. You've talked about the labor law and if you could just start with us, when we look at the financial sector, what does the law look like? When we talk about disparities? I think you've already highlighted one of them. Are there other examples that you have? Because then again, this is an opportunity for those listening to take it up to say, okay, maybe we need to go back and start rethinking some of our laws and how limiting they might be, even for men and for women as well. So please, if you there are more insights you have in terms of what the law says when it comes to disparities in the financial sector.
Speaker 4:Well, I'm not an expert in live hall law or anything like that. I think that, probably from a law standpoint, I think that the our laws definitely need a huge revamp. I think a lot of the things that guide a lot of the laws that we have are fairly archaic and need to be modernized. But, that being said, I think that the greater danger is not so much in the written law as much as it is in the unwritten law. So the things that boil down to society and culture.
Speaker 4:So, oh, she can't do this job because she's this or there's a stigma attached to, like you had mentioned earlier, coming at women in certain roles and certain patterns of behavior that should be, would be expected, or narratives, and I think that the bigger danger there also is even in people, women playing into those narratives, right.
Speaker 2:Let me use an example.
Speaker 4:Somebody who is frustrated at work. Now, ideally in a workplace you should be tempered right. There's a certain etiquette that should occur in the workplace. So you know it was a oh God lost his temper.
Speaker 4:If a woman does it, then she's being emotional. You know, that type of thing, those particular mindsets and mentalities, need to end so that people are. It's not right for either of them to have done that in the workplace and they shouldn't be held to a different standard for reacting emotionally within the office environment as an example. So I think that I think what is more cognant is not so much the way our laws are structured, because our legal laws generally are outdated, but I think that the unwritten laws, the cultural norms that we accept, that we treat as normal in the workplace and in the sector, need to be addressed. And I think that is something that starts with things like what you're doing on this podcast sensitizing people and bringing up the issues and having people think about them and trying to get people to think differently about how we approach these things and do similar things. So I think I will leave it very soon to continue with that line of thought or with our own line of thought.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, jack Billy over to you.
Speaker 3:All right, jack, I think you have said quite some. Our laws are obsolete. I mean, we don't need anyone to tell us I mean, we're Nigerians, we're in Nigeria and our laws are obsolete. I mean, the primary legislation for the regulation of banks in Nigeria is the Bufi the Banks and other Financial Institutions Act of 2007. We're in 2023. And there are so many other laws that are still in place, laws that we received in 1900, alongside the received English law, and that we're still using in current times.
Speaker 3:So we may just drift away from the prevalent laws and look at what happened internally in the structures that various banks and other financial institutions have adopted. For example, in my own bank, the management is deliberate about giving women opportunities to try to handle more responsibilities. Like I said earlier on, there are more women who are branch managers, who are heads of divisions and who hold various responsibilities on the bank. Like I said earlier on, the banking industry is a highly result-driven ecosystem. The banks have structures in place to monitor performance month on month and important career decisions are made based on these performances and outputs. So, if you're able to distinguish yourself, the external laws may not play a role on the changes or the opportunities that you would have in-house, even though, like I said, we don't have a 50-50 distribution. We have about 21 commercial banks in Nigeria and out of the 21 commercial banks, I think we have eight female MDs and CEOs. We have Nneka O'Yali of Fidelisi Bank.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mr Dono FCM, we just mentioned a few. It's not yet where we ought to be. I think it's about 8%. It's still low, but there's been a little paradigm shift. And, like I said, women, we need to just be deliberate about being more visible, especially in the financial services industry. I mean, where you see this stereotype and people view you as not being able to function in this area or in that area, stand up and let them know that you can Take it up, take up that responsibility and let people know that you can. I'll give you an example. I was working from church on a Sunday morning. I was working to my car and some car drove past us and delayed it in quite a drive. Well, there was a couple in front of me and the man said oh, there's no woman. I walked to him and I said politely. And I said politely, I said Sam, sorry, but that's the regatory, so you expect that she wouldn't drive properly because she's a woman and that's your expectation of her.
Speaker 4:And so.
Speaker 3:I had to ask myself what expectations do I have of myself? And so that's where I task women when people see you as weak or as incapable of holding a particular office or taking up certain responsibilities, be deliberate about it. Once you deliberate about it and post the results or the performance that speaks for itself, then nobody can take that away from you. So for me, that's it. That's been the driving force for me. Really, thank you.
Speaker 2:Hearing the two of you, this is the point where we either beat our chakere or ring our bell. Nice, you're both speaking very strongly on this issue. Because, yeah, and I think that's something that has come up over time with every guest that we've had is the need to actually speak up, because I feel like there's a fear, and that's because women, not naturally, but by societal construct, have always been made to feel that they shouldn't aspire for more. It is men who should advance, it is men who should take on more and women should be behind the scenes. So, hearing that, even in the financial sector, women also need to be a bit bullish about it. Women need to also stand up and be counted, like they say. And it's just making me think about the women in the rural areas because, you know, and just the need to take more education.
Speaker 2:Granted, there's a lot of work going on in the rural setting in terms of donors, you know, trying to do a lot of training and capacity building and startup capital around financial inclusion and getting more women into business and more women, you know, to be able to generate their own resources. But I think it's just also important in terms of, you know, training. But the key thing that you both have raised the laws need to be revamped, they need to be looked at again and to be updated to flow with the times. The world is fast changing. We're seeing a lot of change across different development sectors and there's a need for even the financial laws to also be to also evolve and to accommodate the times that we're in and create more opportunities. But, yeah, very profound, very profound Letty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's a whole lot to digest and, honestly, I'm proud that we're going on this journey. I'm so proud of us, I'm so proud of this episode, like, you know, previous episodes. I'm glad that people can hear this and begin to ask themselves questions how can I change? In what way am I contributing to the status quo? In what way am I going to be able to teach the next person what it means to stand up, to take off space, to change the narratives? And, honestly, I couldn't be more proud. And Ebele's last comments, and even Jack's, has gently tilted us into our final question and that is how we can flatten the curve and what is the role of the government, the financial institutions, the NGOs, donors and all the multilateral institutions, you know, in this, how can each and every institution contribute to flatten the curves that we've identified? So I think we should start with Jack I think it was last speaker right.
Speaker 4:So, jack, All right, thank you. I do think that everyone has a role to play. I mean, the world is a village meeting at this point. I'm starting with our laws. I do think that sometimes it's important to tip, to tip the hand, to push things in the direction that you want things to go, and I think that that starts first with laws, both the written laws, as I mentioned earlier, but also our cultural laws, our societal laws, that the things that we allow to become normal. We need to play a more active role in deciding what normal looks like to us, whether it be within our organizations or from the constitutional perspective.
Speaker 4:And I was going to say something about merit. You know, while Ebele was talking, it really stood out to me that, you know, financial services cater to his business. It's about the Nenari and the dollars. In the sense, nobody wants to set up a business or the startup business. It's going to fail. They want to earn and whatever it takes to do that is what they're going to do, and I think that part of the trend that we're seeing with women taking on more prominent roles within these businesses, is because people are they're basically for lack of a better word cutting away the crap and focusing on what can this person actually do and does this person fit what we're looking for? Can this person deliver all we're looking for? So we're beginning to shift away from these biases against genders not being able to do certain things and shifting more into merit based systems, which is what I think is important for any society to develop and to grow.
Speaker 4:But I still do think that we need to tilt the needle a little bit, and that could take the form of, for instance, creating laws or rules that force the narrative for for parity.
Speaker 4:So, for instance, if you're looking at election cycles, if you make it mandatory that there's such a number of slots that must be allocated to women, for instance, to make sure that there's better balance or quality in the office space in the companies, if there are such slots in the boards that must be filled by women, if you start to force that narrative and embed it into our governance structures, whether at the federal, state or even corporate governance structure, then we're sourcing the hand of people to take parity more seriously, to make sure that there's better representation across the different spheres of our of our society, and then that way the cultures will also shift, because you have better representation, and and that will change the landscape in the future. So that's that's where I think we need to go, that's what I think our focus will need to be going forward if if we're to have better parity among gender representation in our space especially.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much, jack. Here you like that's, that's. Those are very, very valuable points. Yeah, changing the laws and, you know, creating spaces for women to, to step up to to the plate. I specifically liked, I especially liked the part about, like on the boards, making, you know, making sure that women occupy a certain number of women, you know, occupy certain positions on executive boards to make executive decisions. Yeah, and I also love when you mentioned the cultural shift is not just about making statutory changes, it's also cultural, because the cultural affects how we speak as a people, how we think, how we treat people, you know, on the basis of parity. Yeah, thank you, epele. How do you think we can flatten this curve?
Speaker 3:All right. For me, really, I think the first thing is to go, you know, is to go granular. You know we need to get to the very, very, very, very first stage and that should be the family. You know, just like all cultures, like Jack had said, I think the family is the very first institution, you know, before we begin to go to the government and the multi nationals. And you know the laws and all the rest of it. You know I'm saying this because you know this is a bit personal to me.
Speaker 3:I was having a conversation with my late mom, you know, some years ago and she said I was quite good, you know, with accounting. I was quite good in numbers, I was quite good with business, commerce and you know some subjects back then in school. And then she said to me she said if I tool this part, I'm sure it would have been something big in the bank. And I could see her saying that with a lot of regrets, you know, because back in the days most females went to teachers training school. I mean, that was her story, she and her sisters. They went to teachers training school. There were teachers, you know, more emphasis was on the men to go to school get a proper education. The woman was just allowed to go to teachers college and you know that was the highest, you know, level of education it could.
Speaker 3:And so for me I think we should go granular. You know we should start from the families and I'm glad that people are taking deliberate steps to see that a girl child can amount to much more than you know, just being someone who has just some kind of basic education and is back at home to tend to the family needs and all the rest of it. You know parents are becoming more deliberate about giving their girl children quality education, and so I think for me that's a starting point. You know the government should, you know, put in place structures that encourage a girl child to get an education. You know every institution must be deliberate about it. Scholarships and incentives should be put in place for the best performing girl child from the secondary school level. You know it will be a great booster. You know the gestation period before we begin to see the results may take a while, you know, but is it is a great starting point. You know the relevant institutions, families, the family units and all what not. You know we need to be, we need to start early.
Speaker 3:I mean, singapore has the highest number of female CEOs in the world. What is Singapore doing? You know our executives. You know travel around the world. You know to see these things we need to study. We need to study the. You know the climbs where these things are thriving. Singapore has the highest number of female executives. What are they doing? So there must be something that they are doing we need to glean from. Okay, so that's that's what I think. If we're not deliberate about it, we'll keep having these conversations in 10 years to come, in 20 years to come, and we look back and we may not have really done anything significant. So, yes, from the family unit, parents need to be more aware that a girl child is much more than just someone who is to stay at home and be domesticated and all the rest of it, you know. So for me, that's that's it basically. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Okay, Wow, Thank you so much the both of you for taking us back to the home, you know, and also taking us back to the laws, taking us back to you know what the government needs to do, and I think the way it's ended is when Iberi ended it. Iberi ended it. A bigger pattern, talked about how these stereotypes are formed right from childhood and then they go on with us. But also just even Jack, highlighting the fact that we cannot keep holding people back based on whether the written laws or the unwritten laws that you know permit our lives every day. And that's one of the reasons why this podcast exists is to highlight the good that is being done, because we cannot go about feeling totally hopeless because we've seen some great progress, but it's also to x-ray the fact that this we still have a long way to go. And thank you even for highlighting Singapore and the fact that they have a lot of female executives and should be told we can see that they're also thriving in terms of their development, their economy.
Speaker 2:It also demonstrates that there's nothing wrong with having women in leadership for many times, for a long time. There's always that like. I think Jack made reference to it when he talked about. If a woman, you know, reacts to something, and they're quick to say she's emotional, but if a man reacts to it, it seems to be a good thing, you know, and it's just calling to mind that these things are just stereotypes. They do not necessarily, they're not like facts, neither are they like science or laws at all, because sometimes people say, oh, we can't have women in leadership because women would screw it up. But we've seen women in leadership who are also doing very, very well.
Speaker 2:It is my hope that even as we walk at the national level, global level, we do not also forget the women in the rural areas, because I'm sure a lot of them would benefit greatly from opportunities to either be resourceful or be in business or go back to school, whatever the case may be. So thank you very much and I'm very happy that the bit about education, educating girls, because I'm very passionate about girls education. We need more girls in school, because a lot of what we're talking about would not make any sense if girls are not equipped with the basic knowledge to engage. And just hearing everything Nnedi, it makes me remember what the late Shazby used to say when he says each one teach one.
Speaker 2:I think yeah. So I am just hearing Jack and Billy. It comes out that we all have work to do. Each one teach one. Yeah, over to you for our question.
Speaker 1:Okay, guys, thank you so much. You've really helped educate listeners today and we're super grateful to learn from your perspective, from your experiences. So now for the concluding fun part of this whole episode. We've come to this beautiful surprise, and it is a question for you guys. So, ebele and Jack, if your life was a book or a movie or a poem or a song, what would the title be and why? We'll start with Ebele.
Speaker 3:Well, you didn't even give me some time to think. Okay, so I'm so happy.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, give me some time to think. Okay, so you?
Speaker 3:have five seconds. I have five seconds. Okay, the title of my book will be Trivon, from the word thrive, thrive on. You know, for me really, because all the conversations we have had today came from very deep places I mean I said something and I said it was personal to me, and you find out that I mean, as long as you're alive, you just have to keep pushing the limits, even when people don't believe in you. The most important thing is what you see in yourself, what you believe about yourself, and then you keep driving. So for me it's drive on.
Speaker 2:Drive on Very powerful Nice. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Jack, I try to be hard all the time in the world to think.
Speaker 4:I struggled, I'm still struggling. It didn't take as long as I thought she would. The truth is, coincidentally, I I dropped it down a note in my journal a couple of weeks ago to write a book on my life. The title was supposed to be more. The working title was Diary of a Love Starved Madman. Wow, it's deep because, like I said, I tend to wax philosophical a lot.
Speaker 4:But the idea is that you know, in one way, shape or form, we're all looking for love In the different forms that it comes, whether it be in our relationships, whether it be in our passions, whether it be in our work. We want to love what we do because of that feeling that it gives to us and because of that, you know we go through it. You know we deal with the highs and the lows, the edge of the flows. We deal with disappointment, because you can't have passion without disappointment right, when things don't necessarily go your way at different points and it makes you a little crazy. You know, at times when your career is not going the way you wanted to, when your relationships maybe are not going the way you wanted to, when your life is not heading where you wanted to, where at the place you think it should go. It can make you a little crazy, but it's all part of the journey.
Speaker 4:Life, for me, is ups and downs. It's what lets you know that you're alive, and so the working title of my life would be the Diary of a Love Starved Madman. Basically, the pursuit of love and passion in life and the things that I do, whether it be for a career, whether it be my passion for people, whether it be my relationships, my passion for food and cooking or music, and how those things have taken me up and down and up and down and driven me a little crazy at times. So that's just yeah, I'm putting it out there. So now I have to do it.
Speaker 2:Accountability. But those are lovely, lovely, lovely titles from the Votaview, very inspiring too.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, there's a lot from you guys to be and, honestly, this is a very good place to you know, close for today.
Speaker 4:It's been quite enlightening, it's been sorry, Nelly, does it need to end? I'm kind of enjoying this.
Speaker 2:I know, but sadly we have to go. We'll bring you both back again for another episode because there's still a lot to unpack. Go unpack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's okay, that's fine. Thank you, guys so much. Thank you, kemi and I are very grateful and happy that you could take time out of your busy schedules to do this with us today, and we do hope our listeners have, you know, as usual, learned a thing or two and go walk away, you know, from this episode with an action plan. We're not asking for so much. We're just asking that you learn one thing and teach just one person, each one, each one, as can you say. So, on that note, we've come to the end of this episode study.
Speaker 1:The next will be joined by a very special guest or two to dissect the hot topics on the streets, as usual, surrounding gender stereotypes. So we will bring you our take on at least two very hot, hot, hot hot topics. You know, things that have got people going gaga on social media or in Africa or all over the world for the week. So, guys, tune in and make sure you don't miss that episode as usual. If you have a question or you want to share your experience or experiences with negative gender stereotypes, please click on the link below to drop us a message, or you can write to us at genderishp at gmailcom. I'll take that again. Write to us at genderishp at gmailcom. You cannot socialize with all our socials, including Instagram at genderishp or on X at genderishp.
Speaker 2:And until we come your way again next week, we're signing out. Bye guys, bye guys.
Speaker 3:Bye.