Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
10. WOTS - Men's Health, HIV/AIDS and Gender Based Violence (GBV).
In this season finale, we spotlight the urgent conversations around men's health, HIV/AIDS gender-based violence and the intersection with stereotypes. We're not just talking issues; we're talking change, action, and the power of advocacy. Join us as we dissect the significance of platforms like "Movember" and International Men's Day—critical elements in the pursuit of a healthier, stronger and more equitable society.
As we bid farewell to a season filled with thought-provoking discussions, we are excited to invite you to the upcoming third installment of Genderish. Rest assured, the conversations will only get deeper, the stories more profound, and the advocacy stronger. We are not just a podcast, we are a movement. Thank you for lending your ear, your voice, and your heart to these pivotal issues. Here's to continued learning and growing together in season three.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone and welcome to Genderish, the podcast designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. It's your girl, kemi, and I'm here with the usual suspect, nettie.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, nice to have you guys back.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is our final episode for season 2. Episode 5. Yes, nettie, it's episode 5, season 2. How time flies like really quickly. Time flies by very fast when you're having fun, so it's been fun.
Speaker 1:And for this episode it's the ward on the streets. That's what we're focusing on this week and the ward on the street that we're looking at. We're looking at three very distinct but interconnected commemorative days and seasons, and that is November, which puts the focus on men's health in November, because the 19th of November is known as International Men's Health Day. But the month of November is popularly known as Movember, which means raising awareness around men's health, men's mental health, for throughout that period, we're also going to be looking at World AIDS Day, which is December 1st, where the world comes together to address issues or raise or amplify issues around HIV AIDS, its impact on the world, the progress we've made and how much more we still need to do. And then we would wrap it up with the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence, which starts from November 25th and ends on December 10th. So this episode is focusing on these three commemorative days and how gender stereotypes actually impact each and every one of them.
Speaker 2:Nnedi. What are your thoughts? Oh yes, kemi, this is a really packed episode and, guys, if you have missed any of our conversations, I think this is the episode you really do not want to miss, because a lot of times men feel neglected, men feel unheard, men feel unloved. So it's amazing that we are raising, we're contributing to the fight to raise awareness around men's health, which is amplifying the Movember movement. And then the 16 days of activism. I'm sure a lot of people don't even know about this or haven't even heard about it. Now. For the people who have heard, I doubt that they know.
Speaker 2:It's a whole, I think, two weeks of activities addressing issues surrounding gender-based violence. What we can do, you know, as individuals, what we can do in our communities, what we can do in our lives, how we can amplify, you know, these issues and play our part to help combat GBV. And then also the World AIDS Day. You know, over the years, there's been some sort of numbness, you know, around the topic of HIV AIDS. You know. However, is it still an issue? Should we devote time and energy to this? Yes, we should.
Speaker 2:So I'm really glad that you know we're going to be tackling these three critical subject areas. Yes. So, kemi, yes, I'm excited, and guys also, when we're excited about you know this being the final episode for the second season, it doesn't mean we want to leave you guys. On the contrary, we're happy. We're happy, you know, that we're making progress, but at the same time, we're sad that you know we have to take a break to repackage. You know reformat, you know re-everything that we can do to keep giving you guys, you know, the best of the best.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. I don't want to put that out there. Yes, two seasons gone, but there will still be many more seasons addressing issues of harmful gender stereotypes and the many ways in which they impact every facet sector and area of our lives and our society. Ok, so, nelly, you started off very well when you talked about Movember and the fact that many times, the feeling is that, you know, men are not often in terms of men's health, men's mental health are not often prioritized, and I like the fact that we have the Global Movember Award.
Speaker 1:And the fact that it's not just focused on first is the 19th, which is International Men's Health Day, but the fact that you know it's been expanded over the years to be throughout November, raising awareness of men's health, raising awareness of men's mental health, raising awareness about the many ways in which men also suffer different forms of abuse. And one thing many people do not know is that, compared to women, men actually have very poor health-seeking behavior, and I say that as someone who also works in the field of HIV. And the reason is that you know we do have very poor health-se seeking behavior amongst men. So a lot of times men are usually the last one to present themselves to care and most times when they're coming in they are like, really, really sick. And when you interrogate some of them, when you talk about some, talk to some of them about it, they tell you and they say, oh um, I don't believe a man should come to the. No, it's a strong man shouldn't be in the clinic. A strong man should be in the office at the end of the day. You also hear men say things like oh no, I don't have the time to go into the hospital. At the end of the day, I'm the provider I'm supposed to be working on stuff. So men tend to have poor health seeking behavior, and that has its roots in gender stereotypes, is the feeling that a real man should always be strong, A real man should always be on point, and it's the. Also, it stems from the fact that people, when men go to the hospital to see the doctor, there seems to be this connotation of being weak. But that's not because, at the end of the day, a real man should actually put and prioritize his health, his wellness and his well-being, because for you to do all these other things that you want to do, if you don't have health, then you're not able to achieve that. And we've also talked about the fact that the suicide rates amongst men are higher than they are. Yeah, issues around depression and things like that, more men are dying by suicide again, it still has that. It's still fueled by the whole virality. Yeah, yeah, men should be strong, men should be powerful.
Speaker 1:One of the things I liked in this year's movember was a strong focus on the need for men to speak up and not man up, because I I also did something around, because that day I just felt like I needed to put out something there to say we don't want you manning up because you can't be strong all the time. We want you to speak up, and that also means that we need to raise boys who can show emotions. I think Casey and Obie took us through that when we went on like an episode. Yeah, we need to raise men and raise boys who can show emotions, who can ask for help, because that's one thing we see, men have a hard time asking for help but another thing is, even as we raise them, we also need to create safe spaces and and safe and not judge them when they do that. So I'm really very happy about the movember season, because I think it's one time that the world really rallies around to say you know what we can't deal with. We can't continue with toxic masculinities that say you shouldn't prioritize your health. We can't continue with toxic masculinities that say you should bottle up all your emotions. We can't continue toxic masculinities that says you shouldn't ask for help when you need it, because now even we have more women who have hiv in terms of the body.
Speaker 1:You see that a lot of them present very late and most it's almost like too late to get anything. Um, it'd be good. I don't know what you think there, because that's something. That's because we see that even at work, like in the facilities, when we go to the field, and we interact, even in the communities, the research and we interact, even in the communities, the research and the studies are telling us that a lot of men are presenting late, men are not taking care of their health. Men do not prioritize health because, for them, one of the reasons is that if you put too much focus on that, then that means you're not strong or you you don't have opportunities to do anything else. It takes a healthy man to be able to thrive. It takes a healthy man to be able to thrive. It takes a healthy man to be able to provide If that's what your priority is. It takes a healthy man to actually live long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yes, kemi, like everything you've said is hot on. And two things to add. It's like when men you know, keep holding onto these ancient belief systems, these outdated models that we follow so doggedly, it's difficult to realize that it doesn't just affect them when it's too late. It affects everything around them, it affects everyone around them. It affects their daughters, it affects their wives, their partners, it affects their friends, it affects their colleagues, it affects, affects their businesses. And now, when you put all this together, what do you get? Society? It affects society.
Speaker 2:So, whether you like it or yes, the fact that you feel pain in your body as a man and you do not present on time to figure it out, to address it, to nip it in the bud, just know that you've already started a chain reaction. The spiral has started. So, at the end of the day, you have daughters who, let's say, god forbid, the man ends up dying or committing suicide or something. You have daughters who are no longer cared for. You also create a generation of sons who will not speak up, who eventually get damaged. Yeah, because of your actions, because of your decisions. You know you have, you have, you have wives, you have spouses, you have partners who are left just in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, lots for them to to shoulder. You have businesses that just die. That's why, in places like nigeria, for instance, we can count on the tip of our fingers businesses who have survived decades, who have survived generations.
Speaker 2:I don't know if we actually have any such business in Nigeria. I doubt that we do. So you find out that most times, when the men who started these businesses die, that's it. There is no succession plan. And when a business dies, that's the economy.
Speaker 2:So when we talk about poverty alleviation, when we talk about gender equality, it needs both genders to play their part. Men, we need you to play your part. You don't need to be the strongest man in the room. We don't need you to be the guy who has the widest shoulders to carry the whole world. No, we just need you to be there in 100% health. Yes, do the part that you can. So that's number one for me. And then, secondly, the issue of the health. We can't have enough on that. You know the issue of men feeling like oh, I'm a man, I don't have to, I don't have to, I don't have to See at the end of the day, when you eventually present what happens. A lot of times it now means everyone around you has to bear the financial burden, everyone around you has to bear the emotional burden, everyone around you, like life stops for everyone else around you. So we can't. Just, you know we can't say this enough. We can't.
Speaker 2:And then Africa I think we have our work cut out for us. I noticed that with Movember, you know, most countries have dedicated websites, dedicated plans of events that all fed into that. You know a general website, movembercom. You know, slash this country or this country, dot Movembercom. And I didn't notice a lot of that in Africa. I didn't notice that in Nigeria. It was just scattered pieces of, you know, activities. What this means is that, at the end of the day, only a select few get to hear this information. So I think, men, I think we need to do better. I think we need to, you know, create dedicated websites, dedicated activities. Like it's the end of 2023. I think it's not too early to start planning for November 2024.
Speaker 2:2024, yes, you know so, because we'd, when we save a lot of men, when we say when we, when we, when we highlight, when we bring men's health to the fore, then we have we'll have a potentially economically strong society. You know, we have a society that's more educated. We have boys who are more educated. We have men who are more educated, who are more aware, who are not afraid. We have men who are more educated, who are more aware, who are not afraid to speak up. We have, you know, we start tilting the pendulum, we start changing the dynamics, you know, and we start having stronger men. We start having more virile men. We start having, you know, men who can perform, you know. Yeah, that's just what I wanted to contribute.
Speaker 1:Thank you, nnedi, and just to highlight that, yes, so when we, when we say having men who are stronger and virally, we're basically talking not just based on what society expects, but in terms of your mind, in terms of your health, yeah, in terms of your, your mental um, your mental capacity, your emotional capacity and, just, you know, being able to contribute effectively. And, eddie, you know the thing able to contribute effectively and, eddie, you know the thing is International Men's Day, which is, of course, the 19th of November. One thing that is also missing, which I think needs to be rectified, is the fact that it's not officially recognized by the United Nations, and I guess that's also the reason why you see that there's not a lot of uptake and a lot of men don't even know that it exists, and I think that's something that so men also need to rally around. And maybe even with this platform that we have, is the need for it to also be recognized by the united nations, just as we have the international women's day, right, yeah, the international women's day, which occurs every match eight is actually is recognized by, is recognized by the united nations. Yes, it's recognized by united nations international women's day. There's a lot that happens around it, raising awareness about international men's days november 19th but we want to call on the, the un and respected bodies, it is important to also recognize it as an international day and the good thing is that it anchors on six pillars.
Speaker 1:So movember movement and international men's day anchors on six very distinct pillars. One of it is basically promoting positive male role models. Um, and that's not just looking at movie stars or sports stars, but even in our communities there are a lot of men working, a lot of men changing the narrative, a lot of men changing the narrative, a lot of men promoting whether it's anti-GBV, anti-sgbv, a lot of men who are helping children in the communities maybe to find themselves their voices, a lot of men who are contributing even to just the daily, just supporting our society and supporting the community. So it basically promotes positive male role models. Another pillar that the International Men's Day and the Movember movement celebrates is celebrating men's positive contributions to our society. So contributions to our community, to the family, to marriage, to childcare and environment. It's also set aside to celebrate that. Then, of course, the focus on men's health and well-being and that looks at social, emotional, physical and spiritual. So that's another thing that you know, this season celebrates.
Speaker 1:When we talk about Movember, then also to highlight the discrimination that men also face in social services, social attitudes, expectations and laws. We've talked about the fact that I think we'll talk about it won't go to 16 days, but it's also the fact that men also face different forms of abuse and laws. We've talked about the fact that I think we'll talk about it when we go to 16 days, but it's also the fact that men also face different forms of abuse and violence. It may not be to the degree that women face in terms of when we put it on the numbers, you know the burden where it's heaviest, but we also see that a lot of men do face abuse. So part of what the Men's Day and the Movember movement looks at highlighting is the discrimination that men face in different social services, social attitudes, as well as to improve gender relations and promote gender equality. So that's another piece that it looks at. You know, gender relations, gender equality, the balancing out the power dynamics and not making it tilt small towards one end, because we've seen that the way we've operated with the status quo, you know of the gender imbalance, the inequalities that you know tend to put a lot of pressure, and you know, on men. We can see how detrimental that is both to men and to women, to the society and the families. And lastly, last pillar looks at creating a safer, better world where people can be safe and grow to reach their full potential. And, and what I really like about the movember movement is that it highlights the positives of being a man but at the same time, highlights the different ways in which men themselves are impacted negatively by spirit or by patriarchy or by gender inequalities. And then, with that, is the need to have a concerted effort to now start to rearrange, redesign. You know, because you see a lot of movember activities focusing, maybe on mental health, on men being able to speak, on creating safe spaces.
Speaker 1:Some focus on, you know, men not being having, not for for society, not putting on due expectations of men to the point that it breaks them, you know, but allow some form of balance. Let me share an interesting thing. I was talking to two colleagues during this past week and we're just having conversations about, you know, men presenting late um and need, need for us to amplify and raise more awareness around men's health and encourage more men to seek services and to seek support and for some reason the conversation went into men as providers and we talked about and these are two men, so I was talking to two colleagues. One is a doctor, the other is he works in the health space as well and he's a coach, like a leadership coach and all, and we're talking about society's expectations of men to always provide and, you know, not having women work. And, funny enough, immediately the two of them were like no, that cannot work in this day and age.
Speaker 1:Anybody who is, who is saying they want to have a single provider, house or hold, then you are just basically digging someone's grave because one cost of living has gotten high and they're like we can provide for our families conveniently and comfortably, but at the same time, you do a disservice to the woman, especially if she's talented, she's ambitious, she has dreams and goals of her own. Why do you want to stifle her from growing? Because by her growing, she also contributes to the family and you realize that two people are basically working in partnership to give their children and to give their family the very best. Yeah, and both of them were. You know, the good thing is we're having these conversations now. It's good. Yeah, and we thought that you know we're men and we support men, but we must also start to rethink some of these expectations.
Speaker 1:What about the man who is not able to afford? Are you saying he shouldn't take help just because he can't afford? What is the implication of that on him as a person, you know? So it was very interesting to hear the both of them, you know, talk about it and say we can provide for our families, but we're not going to stop our wives from supporting, contributing. Yes, I want to stop them from contributing, and you know we talked about how he's very involved in parenting his children. Like he takes time out to make sure he's spending time with them.
Speaker 1:He doesn't believe in the narrative that it's only the mother who should spend time. He was like I make out time for my kids, take them swimming, take them to school games. Yeah, I am very present because I want them to grow up having very well-rounded pair um around that life, because then they have both parents being so involved. So I feel like we need to have more of these conversations because and the good thing is that men are changing their ideas and ideology about it. So I really keep having more of this conversation. So to the men, please. We hope that you can raise some form of advocacy so that it becomes an internationally recognized day. But beyond is the fact that we'd like for you to prioritize your health, prioritize your wellbeing, prioritize, you know, just take care of yourself. Prioritize and then also contribute in changing the harmful narratives and the harmful stereotypes, stereotypes that continue to perpetuate inequalities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, kemi, the only thing I just wanted to add was and you have touched on it that while we are advocating, you know, for one side or the other, we also need to be careful to always bring a balance so that we don't go from, you know, trying to balance the scale to tipping it again on the wrong side. So, while while we're advocating for gender equality, to bring up women to, you know, to power, to make sure women pull their own weight, we also need to be careful that we don't, you know, push, run the risk of pushing men so far down the scale that we now, we now create another imbalance, upsetting, you know, the balance that we're trying to create. So so, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone is important yeah that's the reason why people are also talking about the need to not leave boys behind, even as we empower girls, because, at the end of the day, girls are also part of communities and boys are in those communities. So you empower the girls with all this information and you leave the boys behind. The girls go back to the same boys. At the end of the day, who is responsible for perpetuating the most gender-based violence? It is men. So it means that we must carry them along in the conversation so I guess, that takes us to the next discussion point, which is the World AIDS Day.
Speaker 1:So every 1st of December, world AIDS Day is commemorated around the world, putting the focus on HIV, not just HIV as a disease, but also looking at what progress have we made globally in terms of making sure that you know we turn on the tap. We turn off the tap on your infection, I beg your pardon. We raise awareness on the dangers of stigma and discrimination, which also still has roots in violence as well. We raise awareness against discrimination, but also what more we need to do.
Speaker 1:But the reality is we've made such good progress in terms of HIV AIDS response globally, and that includes Africa, because now we now have access to treatment, so there's access to treatment for HIV, where they can access treatment and, of course, with treatments they tend to live. There's the opportunity to live longer, healthier lives right. Hiv is no longer a dead sentence like it used to be years ago, 30 years ago. It's no longer a dead sentence, but in as much as we've made so much progress, there's still a lot that needs to be done, and so rich recent statistics are still showing us that we're losing more than 600 000 people to hiv to aids we'll lose.
Speaker 1:We're AIDS were picking up millions and millions of infections, for example, and the burden is still higher on women and girls. Young women and girls are picking up new HIV infections an average of over 4,000 every week, and that is unacceptable. And when you look at it in terms of what is driving the burden of HIV amongst young women and girls, you have issues such as sexual and gender-based violence, so things like rape. You have issues female genital mutilation, child marriage, intimate partner violence. All of these things expose women and girls and lack lack of bodily autonomy, lack of access to sexual and reproductive health services, lack of the capacity to be able to negotiate safer sex or condom use. These are all some of the things that continue to expose more women and girls to HIV infections and it just calls to mind. When you look at those things, you see that they still have roots, strong roots, in stereotypes and inequalities, and that's why there is a lot of discussion now around.
Speaker 1:We cannot address hiv aids without addressing the stand alone yes, yes, without addressing the intersections like gender inequality, poverty, sexual that drive it, we can no longer speak of it as a standard or just a health issue. It is a development issue, not just health, you know. So this year, you know the focus for this year was Let Communities Lead, and it's basically talking about the role of communities to be able to drive change, to be able to empower through education, information, access to services, you know, and awareness raising. But at the same time, it's also the need to address issues of violence in the communities, address issues of violence wherever they find themselves, because they continue to expose women and girls to new infections every year. There's no reason why we should be having thousands of infections amongst young women and girls, if we're talking about in it's by 2030 yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:Oh, my god, can we? I appreciate? Um, you know the, the statistics and the data that you've laid out you know for for for us. Now, for those of us who still don't understand the implications of this, let me let you guys in on some statistics. I found again global hiv statistics.
Speaker 2:It says that about the estimated number of people living with hiv, it's about 39 million and then the est yes of almost 40, and then the estimated number of people who have access to antiretroviral therapy is just about 29.8 million people. That means about 10 million people are living with HIV AIDS, walking around without any access to care. So if nothing scares us, those figures should scare everyone into, you know, seeking information, into playing our part to reduce these numbers. We were hoping to end the scourge of HIV AIDS by 2030, like Kenny said. So everyone you know, we should stop behaving like oh, that doesn't concern me, I'm not living with AIDS. I don't have any family member living with AIDS, but trust me, you do. It's just that you don't know, it's just that the information is not there. I think if we scatter these numbers, if we put those numbers according, if we share it according to demographics, that means one in maybe five, ten people in our circle is living with HIV. So it's a matter of concern, it's a matter of urgency, it's a matter of each one protects one, each one speak up for the other person. If you see something wrong, speak up. Every one of us should take responsibility for the other person.
Speaker 2:Why we all use the same hospitals. We are in the same families, you know. We use the same schools. If we're not properly educated, then someone around us is going to have HIV and the person might carelessly transfer to the mother to child. If it's a man, the person might marry us, you know. If it's, you know, just anything could happen. So I think it's we need to, you know, have those conversations. We need to, you know, create awareness. It's, you know, let's like the like like 2023 theme says it's about the community. You know, let's let everyone. We're all part of the community. If you're wondering what community in your job, your job space is a community. Your family space is a community. Your school is a community. Where you live is a community let's do what we can to end this scourge. It's an emergency, guys. It's an emergency, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, nnedi, for ending on the note of the sense of urgency around it, because it is true, there is a lot of sense of urgency around addressing issues of hiv and even the stigma and discrimination that that tends to, that tends to be meted out to people living with hiv is also something that you know we strongly speak against, because, at the end of the day, there's a saying that it's not about the. What they have is a positive status. It doesn't make them, it doesn't diminish who they are as people. Oh no, people living with HIV are still human beings like us. They still live in our communities. Some of them are in our families. You know, and we're all.
Speaker 1:The goal is for us to work together as a globe, as a community, to ensure that one we end the new infections, and one of the ways to do that is to address the inequalities that drive them. You know, funny enough, in as much as, yes, we have. Or, interestingly enough, the fact that women carry a high body, the issues I talked about earlier on about men presenting late. That also includes HIV. A lot of men don't want to seek care because they feel that as a man, you shouldn't. Number two, even the rates of stis. A lot of men present very like with stis and it's just that about I shouldn't be going to a hospital until it gets back. That that should be, and and even issues around abuse as well, issues around violence, and so it's just important. Uh, we're highlighting this commemorative days just to demonstrate to our listeners that they're interconnected. They're interconnected and if we address the drivers, if we address the underlying issues, we'll find out that we will have less new HIV infections, even amongst men and women and girls. We will also find out that those who are positive will be able to access treatment, will be able to access and, of course, when we've seen that hiv treatment works, when people are taking their medication, they become virally suppressed and, of course, when you're virally suppressed, the chances of you transmitting to somebody else becomes harder. It like you, it becomes difficult to transmit to someone else because you're virally suppressed.
Speaker 1:And this talks about the fact of engaging men and boys in the conversation. There's a lot going on in terms of empowering girls around HIV. So, for example, access to information, sexual reproductive health. The campaign for comprehensive sexuality education is also something that is very key and very important, you know, to allow boys and girls, you know, get access to information that can help them make informed choices. There are research that shows that when young people have access to comprehensive sexuality education, then they are also able to promote gender equality, because now they begin to challenge. They begin to identify and challenge harmful norms, because some of these harmful norms and these persistent norms and practices and stereotypes are part of the reasons why we're seeing higher infections, the objectification of women, the increase in abuses and rape cases femicides and things like that and there is actually, when we look even more closely at the correlation between HIV and violence, or stereotypes.
Speaker 1:Research actually shows that women who are HIV positive are at a very high risk of, you know, intimate partner violence, and also the other way as well. Like women who are also at increased risk of violence are also predisposed to being HIV positive. So it kind of fits in. And that tells us that whatever we're doing in terms of collective response, we must work hard to change some of those harmful gender norms In fact all, not some to change the harmful norms to promote positive masculinities in our community, to promote policies supporting policies and laws.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, it's also creating opportunities where men understand the importance of access to sexual reproductive health and services for women and girls.
Speaker 1:Because, we've seen cases where, in a number of places, women cannot access certain SRHR services without the consent of the men. So, in other words, there's no bodily autonomy. There's no bodily autonomy to decide when you have sex and with who you have sex. There's no bodily autonomy to decide when you want to have kids and if you want to have kids and how many you want to have. There's no bodily autonomy or agency for women a lot of women and girls to negotiate safer sex because of the power dynamics. So it's very far reachingreaching and and these are things we need to talk about, these are things we need to educate our communities. We want to see more men and boys allyship when it comes to anti-gender based violence, when it comes to promoting safe environments, safe societies or, you know, promoting sexual reproductive health, both for women and for men, for men, yes such heaviness, I know, yeah, it's sometimes when, when, when we harp on these topics, people will be like, oh, we know all these things, why, why are we?
Speaker 2:why we still regurgitate?
Speaker 1:it's important to regurgitate do that because they're still affecting people. Can you imagine? In some countries, girls aged 15 to 19 are 7 times more likely to become infected with HIV than their male counterparts. 7 times more likely. In some places it's 3 times 4 times more likely. And this is just sub-Saharan Africa alone.
Speaker 2:So now put the numbers together and just give us a picture of where the world is headed. Yeah, you know, it's a pandemic. Whether we like it, is it pandemic or epidemic. One of them Epidemic Epidemic something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whether we like it or yes, you know, because we can't. If we, if we keep watching, if we don't take control of these numbers, if we don't take charge in our communities, if we don't, you know, make wage a war against this thing, then we run a risk of losing societies, losing whole families, you know, wiping away a generation or more to the court of of of this, or even losing a whole gender, because if we're, a woman does not have body autonomy, autonomy, you know. Then what are we on about that's?
Speaker 1:sudden death. That's sudden death, especially if we're seeing stats that are telling us that, for example, in just 2022, women and girls accounted for 63% of all new HIV infections in sub-Saharan Africa. That's huge, I think. Well, it's also the reason why we're having this podcast also exists enlighten people, enlighten our listeners, their minds, to see that many practices that we have, that we think it's just flexing, but yes, we've said it time and time again the re, the far-reaching effect it has. And hiv, because and HIV doesn't only affect women and girls, it also affects men, and it affects men in different ways as well.
Speaker 2:One of the topics I was presenting late, or, you know, not going for testing, and these are things that ultimately leads to an increase in the suicide rates, because a lot of times the toxic masculinity part of it all comes into the into play and then they're like I can't go on, like I'm finished, and that's it, the next thing the person considers ending their life.
Speaker 2:So it's yeah, the consequences are just too dire for us to ignore. And also the fact that I'm also excited and I'm grateful, kemi, that we have this podcast where we were sharing these things and we're having these conversations and we're spreading this information, because the whole gender equality movement, you know, is running the risk of being a joke to so many people. And then it's not as elementary as people are making it out to be Exactly, exactly as people are making it out to be Exactly exactly. These are the many tentacles of the subject. These are the many tentacles and unfortunately, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. The advantages. We need to make these things a priority in every way In politics, in government, in our families, in communities, in schools, in jobs, you know, in organizations, in everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree, See some things play some things in everything, because look at the far-reaching effects of gender inequality it's spreading like wildfire. You know GBV, you know. So I'm glad that we're doing this and I really, I really hope and pray that our listeners if you don't get to listen to any other conversation that we have, please listen to this one. Please share it, you know. Please start the conversation in our families that people wonder how can I contribute? Start with where you are, in our families. Absolutely. Start the conversations in your offices, at your clubs, in churches, in places of worship, in mosques, just everywhere. Let's get this conversation going, because the consequences of not having these conversations far outweigh the consequences of having them. Silence doesn't pay.
Speaker 1:True. On that note, I think you've ushered us into the last discussion, which is 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence, and a lot of focus usually is from November 25th to December 10th and usually it's around women. So, 16 days of violence, gender-based violence against women and girls, but there's also the focus on men and boys as well, and I think all we've talked about whether it's Movember, whether it's World AIDS Day, we see that violence continues to reoccur in different spaces and different ways. But the 16 days usually puts the spotlight on the dangers around gender-based violence, all forms of gender-based violence. So, whether it's sexual violence, such as rape, sexual assault, whether it's emotional abuse, whether it's domestic violence, whether it's, you know, physical violence, all forms of abuse, all forms of violence. That is what it looks at. It raises awareness against, it mobilizes community action or seeks to mobilize community action as well, as you know, engage policymakers, decision makers on the need to make stiffer laws that makes it impossible for violence to continue to be perpetuated. And a lot of times yes, we know the statistics will tell us that at least one in three women would experience the form of violence in their lifetime, which, of course, puts the burden on women. But we're also seeing now that the spotlight is also going to men, highlighting now that men also do suffer different to men, highlighting now that men also do suffer different forms of abuse and violence and in their own case, because again of the expectation of having to be tough, a lot of men do not talk or do not talk about their violence. So stereotypes are helping to stifle men from sharing about violence, from sharing about being abused.
Speaker 1:I remember legal state government had put out a report not long ago saying that in the year alone they had over 300 reports of violence and abuse cases from men. I was particularly about that because, yeah, it means that more men are beginning to speak up. Um, it means that because if men are not talking about their own violence experience or abuse experience, then we lose. How are they supposed to help? That doesn't help us in terms of addressing it. You know we're working on the tools and the interventions to end violence against women. If we don't know the ways in which they affect men, if we don't have the data to back it up, it becomes difficult to have interventions that address it. And just our listeners know that 16 days of activism against gender-based violence is something that you can contribute to. In your own little corner, you can speak up against violence, and even when we do interventions, we encourage engaging men and boys as well.
Speaker 1:In a number of our communities we see that a lot of men and boys are beginning to speak up against all forms of violence against women, all forms of violence against men. So we need more allyship. We need more allyship from men against violence. We need more men champions who would champion masculinity, including the one that you know, that has no space, zero tolerance for every form of violence, whether domestically, in the society, at work or wherever. When we look around us, we see a lot of stories coming up of alleged sexual harassment issues in the workplace, in entertainment, you know and most of it have men at the center, and these are men who are powerful, who are influential, who have a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Why does that happen? It happens because of the societal norms it have. It happens because of what society has excused and enabled for so many years when it comes to um one, sheltering abusers, because we do have a system that shields abusers and shame perpetrators. Shame of it. You know, women. A lot of times we see that women are being used as moral compasses for men. Women are always judged, you know, and they're used as yardstick for men as against judging a man's own action. And that's one of the things that the 16 Days of Activism looks to highlight the need to not shame victims, or survivors as we call them, and to also ensure that perpetrators, you know, face justice, face the problem, because if we don't do that, we'll continue to have more violence. I think it's unfair that a woman can't. There are certain places you can't go to because it's either you're having to deal with catcalling or someone is trying to touch you appropriately or want attention.
Speaker 1:So these are some of the things that we need to collectively address as a people, because they have it's root a lot in the inequalities and the inequities that we need to collectively address as a people, because they have its root a lot in the inequalities and the inequities that we're trying to to yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I'm glad, I'm really glad that we're having this conversation on Kemi because, you know, especially in recent times, where people are coming up, women are beginning to speak up, you know, and all sorts of unsavory stories, you know, and all sorts of unsavory stories, you know, are coming out every other day on social media, on the news, on one abuse or the other. And then I'd really like to address something here this um, this notion that a victim came out too late yes, yes, thank you. It's really unsavory, it's unhealthy, it's, it's wrong.
Speaker 1:You know people take never be a statute limitation to when someone is able to come out to talk about the traumatic experience because you don't know what they had to go through.
Speaker 2:There are different levels to grief. We all address trauma in in in different ways and for people that don't know, the mind is such a powerful machine that it develops all sorts of methods of coping. So there's every tendency that something horrible could happen to you as a child and your mind will block it. Yeah, I think you know the mind always goes into two modes fight or flight. Yeah, when it goes into the flight mode, it takes a while, yes, it takes a trigger, you know, for you to recall and for you to, you know you know, adjust the same emotions you felt then to it and decide to take action. So I don't think there should be a statute of limitation to when someone can decide to, you know, you know, pursue their, their, their, their, the person who perpetrated these, these horrible crimes against them yeah, yeah secondly, when people speak up, we're trying to create a safe space, a safe society.
Speaker 2:When people speak up, we should allow them to express themselves. A lot of times, if you talk to these victims, you find out that the reason why they speak up is not to kill the person, it's not to vilify their abuser. It's actually to get closure. It's actually for healing If the consequences eventually follow, that's okay. Their abuser it's actually to get closure. It's actually for healing if the, if the you know consequences eventually follow, that's okay. But I'm telling you in the in in, in more cases than not, when it comes to this check with the victims, you find that a lot of them are just looking for closure.
Speaker 2:This happened to me. Do you acknowledge that? You did? Social and social to me? That's it. A lot of times they're just looking for I'm sorry, they're just looking for people, for their, their abusers to take responsibility. Yeah, honestly, if people could just get off their high horses and allow people to express themselves, I think we'll find that gradually, a lot of these things will no longer happen, because every action has an equal and either opposite consequences. It does every single action. So when we speak of their consequences, when we don't speak of their consequences. Yeah, yeah, so it's instructive, like people should stop victim shaming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Stop victim shaming. We need to stop, and we need to stop asking questions like why didn't you leave?
Speaker 2:Why were you wearing? What were you wearing?
Speaker 1:That is inconsequential when it comes to abuse and violence, it has nothing to do with the person who was abused, but everything to do with the perpetrator. So, yeah, we need to hold perpetrators more accountable, accountable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. If you keep blaming people, what of children Exactly? What could a child possibly have said, what could a child possibly have done to warrant abuse?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it also goes to the bit about families as well, you know, encouraging people to speak up. A lot of times we see families hush survivors. They tell them not to say anything to preserve the family. But what we fail to understand is that when we hush and shush survivors, we embolden perpetrators. We make people feel they can get away with it. It's why the cycle continues. But when we start to encourage, empower people, create safe spaces, even train our law enforcement agents on how to deal with issues of abuse and reports on violence, we'll see that perpetrators will start to, will start to, you know, they will no longer want to abuse anyone, because now people are as a question, exactly. I'm happy that survivors are beginning to speak up, now more than before, which is the reason why these 16 days of activism exist.
Speaker 1:But it's also saying that we need to set an example for the younger generation of men, of women, all the traditional ideas that we have, or the harmful stereotypical ideas we have about women, or about girls or about boys. This is the time to start changing it, and part of what that requires is to teach about consent. I don't think we talk about consent enough in our community, so it's to teach about consent. We need to teach boys and girls what does consent mean, because the fact that you can doesn't mean you should. So teaching boys and girls, girls, what does consent mean? Teaching about bodily autonomy, the fact that your body is yours and you should be able to decide and make decisions, not that somebody takes it away from you because they are a man. No, I think. Also teaching the younger generation also about accountability. What does it mean to be accountable to each other? You know, when it comes to issues around abuse and all, but also education, information.
Speaker 1:What does rights mean? What does women's rights or girls' rights or human rights? What does it mean in the context of GBV, you know, and how can you? For example, how do we empower even survivors to reach out to facilities or support? And that would also be capacitating service providers, funding, because that's one of the things that this year's theme also looked at. The need to invest in response, you know. Theme also looked at the need to invest in response, you know, funding services funding, support funding, rehabilitation funding, campaigns against gender-based violence, things like hotlines, counseling, you know, and how to to navigate that, access to treatment, or things like post-exposure prophylaxis for hiv, like we would say, people who get raped, so that that way they don't get a double burden of getting infected. But it also means teaching even young kids and even adults.
Speaker 2:What are the?
Speaker 1:signs of abuse and how can we help? How can we help when we see that abuse has happened? How can we help? How can we start a conversation and this is also to our listeners as well. You can play a role in ending gender-based violence. You can play a role in ending sexual and gender-based violence. If you see something, say something.
Speaker 1:Don't shame survivors, don't blame them, but try to support them so that, whatever it is they need whether it is a recourse to justice, whether it is that they need rehabilitative support, whether they need treatment and care you enable them to get that, because, even now, one of the things we're talking about is also we've talked about stiffer policies.
Speaker 1:You know, a lot of our laws are very do not? They still put the the burden on the victim to prove, to prove, for example, in a case of a rage. It's crazy, yeah. So we were not doing well in the law department, in the policy department, in the framework department, in terms of protecting survivors and ensuring that perpetrators do not get away with their acts. I think that's also another thing and that's a call for governments, for decision makers, policy makers.
Speaker 1:We need to look at our laws. We need to make sure that they are protective, we need to make sure that they do not force that sexual and gender-based violence, but rather they put an end to it. And then, even as we work and have conversations, we need to take it as an opportunity to enlighten those around us. We don't want to have a generation of women or men who, out of all of them, majority have experienced one form of abuse or the other. That is not right, that is unacceptable, and that includes in the workplace, sexual harassment in the workplace, sexual harassment in schools. Those are things we need to start speaking up strongly against. I'm glad that I've forgotten the organization in Nigeria, but they started this work about sexual abuse in school, sexual harassment in schools, and they're now engaging with Nigerians for us to have laws that actually discourage that.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's awesome, that's a great start, and I wish we could take advantage of this and spread it everywhere, because you'd be amazed to learn that it's not just adults who perpetrate these things. Even children do, but that's because they've been victims or they've seen their survivors or victims, or they've seen their parents or the adults in their families, in their communities, perpetrate this act, so it's a snowball effect. We all need to be concerned and we need to take action in our little little communities. And then there was something else I also wanted to add. While we're encouraging survivors to speak up, while we press for there to be codified consequences to these actions, we also need to point people who want to take advantage of this situation to perpetrate lies against people, against other people. We also need to shed the light on the consequences of their actions to them. When you do this, when you decide to tool this path, you block access for real survivors.
Speaker 1:For real survivors yes. To falsely accuse someone of rape, for example yes.
Speaker 2:You turn GBV into a joke. You make a mockery of the efforts that everyone is trying to put into combating these crimes against humanity. You make a mockery of it. You turn it into a joke. You create a society where nobody takes survival seriously, seriously, your belief, yes. You put children in harm's way and then you also mess up your own future. You mess up your life Because when eventually the truth comes out, that's it for you. That's it. I don't know how many people who will trust you enough to entrust you with anything. So it's, it's wrong.
Speaker 2:While we're encouraging victims, survivors you know anyone who has if you see something, say something. Why we're trying to create this. Pick up the community. It's also important that will sound a note of warning to people who take these things for a joke. It's not funny. Yeah, don't don't just wake up to try to destroy someone else's life just because you think you have the power or just because you think society will be sympathetic to you. So this is, this is all. Yeah, it's important that we create a balance. Allow people to. There's no statute of limitation on when you should bring your your story out, when you should charge someone to take responsibility for their actions, when someone should bear the consequences of their action. There's no, there should be no, such a limitation. Something happens to you and then you feel like you're now empowered enough to handle it, to speak up. Please speak up, and we should stop victim-shaming and then people who want to take advantage of this to bring someone else down. Please don't. It's not nice, it's not fair. Yeah, that's just what I wanted to contribute.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you so much, Nelly. I think we've had just very important discussions on these three commemorative days and it's our hope that our listeners have learned a thing or two. But just also encourage men again to say speak up, don't man up. Manning up has a lot of negative connotations to it. We want men healthy, we want men who have their well-being intact emotionally, spiritually, physically and then we also just prioritize your mental health. At the same time, work with your circle of friends to also help them to begin to open up and to learn and unlearn a lot of what we know as what men should be when it comes to their health, when it comes to seeking help, when it comes to speaking up, when it comes to safe spaces.
Speaker 1:So I I would say that, just looking at this three commemorative seasons or days, the goal is to see that we have a whole society. We have a society that is have a society that is full, a society that is progressive, a society that complements each other and empowers each other to thrive, and that includes men, women, boys and girls every one of us, regardless of your gender to be able to stay healthy, to be able to seek help when you need it, and for us to collectively make our society safe spaces where there's no violence, where HIV infections are not on the rise but on the decrease, where nobody dies of AIDS are just because stereotypes make it difficult for them to seek care, where people are able to actually, you know, get tested, because stigma and discrimination, which is a form of violence, no longer exists and, you know, men never present late, but whenever they feel unwell, and men also are able to show emotions without fear of judgment, and men are able to also support and be allies of women and girls. It's a society that we all dream of.
Speaker 1:it's also a society we're working towards. Yeah, then, what are your final thoughts before we wrap up?
Speaker 2:Kemi, you've said everything. I just want to add that, on these three subjects, everything we've discussed are things we should all aspire to, are things we should all contribute to, are things we should contribute to educating others about, because, whether we like it or yes, they all have far reaching consequences into our lives, into our societies, into our children's lives. So the sooner we get involved, the sooner we start taking action, the better for everyone. Yes, that's just what I wanted to say. And also, please, guys, listening and listen again to this particular episode and share with everyone in your space, encourage them to listen, because this is the way that we educate, we spread the information and then we contribute towards stopping this handful of gender stereotypes. Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, Nnedi, do you want to wrap us up for the week?
Speaker 2:and for the season Guys, and so, on that note, we've come to the end of this episode and season two. We want to thank you so much for sticking with us, for coming on this ride with us, and we hope that we've somehow managed to, you know, enlighten, to educate, to draw, to draw your attention to these very critical subject matters in our society, and we hope that if we individually spread this message across board in our communities, we hope to somehow contribute to the change that we're all craving. So, on this note, we invite you to stick with us as we continue on this journey by bringing you season three. It promises to be educated, promises to be explosive, it promises to be information dense. It promises this to be power, you know. So we invite you to stick with us, continue on this journey with us and we hope we've contributed to changing something that helps to upset the current balance.
Speaker 2:And then we also invite you to follow us on all our socials at genderishp, on X, at genderishp, on Instagram, at genderishp, and then follow our handles on Budsprout and Genderish Podcast, budsprout, spotify. And, yeah, if you have any message, any words of encouragement, any criticism, any subject matter of concern, please write to us at genderishp at gmailcom. I'll take that again. Genderishp at gmailcom. Yeah, so thank you very much for being with us today joining us and we will see you in three signing out.