Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
12. Dear Mother-In-Law: Transforming Tensions into Familial Harmony (pt 1)
Ever wondered if the complex dynamics between mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law could be untangled? We're thrilled to have Christie Awunor join us to share her unique insights into this fascinating topic. Christie offers personal experiences - with her mother-in-law - that reveal how empathy and understanding can transform often fraught relationships into sources of familial harmony. Together, we challenge the societal norms and gender stereotypes that fuel unnecessary conflict in these relationships, and we emphasize the importance of acceptance and belonging within new family structures.
Our conversation explores heartwarming stories of nurturing connections, illustrating how mutual respect and thoughtful gestures can foster profound bonds. We celebrate examples like the relationship with "Mother A International", where shared interests and honest dialogue create an environment of warmth and closeness. This episode advocates for breaking the cycle of projecting past traumas onto the next generation, encouraging a landscape where all family members feel heard and valued.
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone, welcome again. It's Genderish, the podcast designed to explore and challenge harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time. It's your usual suspects Nnedi and.
Speaker 2:This is Kami. At a time, it's your usual suspect, nnedi, and this is Kami. Hi everyone, good to have you join us on today's episode, nnedi. What do we have?
Speaker 1:cooking today. Guys, firstly we'd like to say again thank you for writing with us. Secondly, we apologize for the long break. Thirdly, we miss you and we hope you're excited to delve into today's explosive topic. So in today's episode we will be exploring the topic. Dear mother-in-law.
Speaker 2:I'm sure when people think of dear mother-in-law they're just, they're wondering what, what is this about? But yes, we are talking about dear mother-in-law today and that's because we have seen, we have heard, we continue to hear different stories about how toxic the relationships between most mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law are, and we want to see how we can contribute because people don't know that harmful gender stereotypes also drive and fuel the toxicity. Yes, in the lives of mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law.
Speaker 1:So today, guys, we're hoping that you get to walk away from this episode more enlightened about how harmful gender stereotypes contribute to the breakdown of the mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationships, and then we hope, most importantly, that you can walk away with nuggets about what you can do in your little space to contribute towards changing the narratives. Kemi.
Speaker 2:Yes, and to help us do justice to this topic, we have an amazing guest with us today who would be sharing from her own experience, and what we've decided to do, guys, is to put a spin on it. We wanted to highlight some of the positives, the good things about, you know, relationships mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationships that are thriving, and feel that that will set a tone to let people know that it is possible to have a better relationship, it is possible to work towards a better relationship so that, at the end of the day, we can have happier families, happier people and, of course, a happier society, one person at a time. So to our guest could you please introduce yourself?
Speaker 3:Okay, good afternoon. My name is Christy Awuno. I live in Abuja, I'm married with two children and so many other adopted children. I work with an NGO and I'm glad to be here this afternoon with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, christy, for joining us today, or Dr Awuno, as a number of people call her, so Nelly, before we go into this episode, I want to do something that I had found.
Speaker 2:You know, we've talked about the fact that there are a lot of issues, we see a lot, we hear a lot, and so I wanted to just read something around mother-in-laws, and so this is a mother's in-law, I mean.
Speaker 2:So this is basically a call to action and this individual actually does a lot of counseling. So her line of work is counseling, and one thing she said is that one of the things she's seen from a number of her clients is how they have struggled with adjustment in their married lives due to their issues with their mothers-in-law. So this is daughters-in-law who have come to her for counseling and they have talked about the biggest challenge for them is getting along with their mothers-in-law. And she said the most common statement that she hears or that her clients hear from their mother-in-law is that I went through this, everyone goes through this, so you have to as well. So she basically decided to say that you know she's not saying that only mothers-in-law are at fault or that they're bad people, but she's also just saying that a lot of times, mothers-in-law project their own experiences.
Speaker 1:And trauma.
Speaker 2:Yes, their trauma, and it's also the reality that a number of them are also influenced. Well, products of our societies are also influenced by the norms, the stereotypes, which also dictates how mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law engage with each other. We'll delve into that a bit more. Then she says the world is changing, women are learning to have a voice of their own and while a new daughter-in-law needs to find her ways of adjusting into the new family that she chooses to be a part of, I like the point of choosing because it's a choice, right, if you decide to go on a journey with someone in marriage are making a choice, and I think that should also, I think that should be reinforced that it's a choice, in other words, it's voluntary, and that means somebody could also have a choice to walk away if they feel that the atmosphere, you know, makes them uncomfortable or it's not enriching or uplifting, because most times people think that when a woman gets married, she is not her own that's it yeah, you've lost boys.
Speaker 2:Well, you don't have a choice, but you have to be here. So it's good to reinforce choice. And then she says adjusting into the new family that she chooses to be a part of the new family should also be able to help her feel accepted and to feel like she belongs because she actually does belong. So she says to all the mothers-in-law out there you being treated unfairly, you needing to sacrifice your time, energy, wishes, dreams, a to C after marriage, you needing to follow rules again, going back to cultural norms and practices and dictates on gender roles and have less and less to no freedom when you were a daughter-in-law is not a valid enough reason for you to treat your daughter-in-law the same way.
Speaker 2:If you were in a similar situation in the past, then try and empathize with this new individual in your family in the present. Stop hurting your relationship with her just because you're projecting the injustices that happened to you. Let her have a voice and life of her own. Let history not repeat itself and, I dare add, let's not feed into the narrative that women hate each other. Okay, nnedi, let's go into the conversation today.
Speaker 1:This is a perfect segue into the conversation, but before we go off on the deep end, let's bring it back and just start. You know a bit more, let's ease our guests into it with our first question and then we will get into the discussion later. So, dr christie, could you tell us about your experience or relationship with your mother-in-law? Can we start with?
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you very much for that question. I happen to marry from a different state, different tribe, of course, different cultural background, and getting into that marriage then was I didn't really want to marry somebody from my tribe because there are some things I saw I didn't like. So I wanted something quite different and probably more interesting than where I was coming from.
Speaker 3:So when I met my husband, I wasn't even sure if I was going to marry him. We just started the relationship. I wasn't so sure, but along the line it got interesting and I felt, oh, it looks like this is the way forward. So when I met him and we started talking towards marrying, one of the questions I asked him was about his mother, because, you know, these days daughters or women or ladies generally pray that their mother-in-laws will die before they get married to their son because of the issues and the troubles that we have heard, we have seen and other experiences. But my thought was quite different. I I wanted to know the kind of person his mother was. Was she friendly? Was she a very harsh person? Has he brought someone home? And what was her reaction and all of that, so I can prepare myself before I get into that family. You know so.
Speaker 3:But somehow, when I was discussing with him, one of the things he did that I really loved was to put me into his family. I realized that I started me into his family. I realized that I started talking to his family members. I started talking to the father, the mother, the sisters and those ones that were abroad and all of that. I started talking with them on phone. And of course, the young women. I was flowing with them very well as young women. And then the mother. I perceived in my spirit that she sounds a bit tough or hard. I don't see her laugh a lot, and all of that.
Speaker 3:So what he told me was that she's just like you. She's too serious, but she's very religious and all of that. So well, I just took that and I entered into the relationship and when I started talking with her she was like, okay, I just like what I'm hearing, but I just hope to see that she's actually like that. So, of course, my first visit to meet her we left Abuja to Lagos and, of course, meeting your mother-in-law for the first time. I went on my knees, you know, to greet her and she held me there from my, you know, from that position upward, and she hugged me. And she hugged me. I will remain that way for up to 10 minutes.
Speaker 3:My husband was just looking at us. He didn't say anything because he did not even understand what was going on. I also did not understand. I just knew that she was holding me close to her chest. I didn't know whether she was praying or asking God, is she the one? And all of that. But after that experience, after she left me, you know, she was like, she nodded her head and she welcomed me. So that was the genesis of our relationship and she has been such a very loving mother she told me that you're not my daughter.
Speaker 2:You know, you're my daughter because she has a daughter. I wish I had a bell ring the bell, not my daughter-in-law.
Speaker 3:You are my daughter, my god so that made me relax and she was actually treating me like her daughters and I just told myself then you behave like a daughter. And then that was how we started flowing in the relationship. My mother-in-law is a very religious person and she doesn't joke. When it comes to prayers, when it comes to fasting, she can do anything for her children and they were praying along the same line as well and she was um, she's a very, very good woman and one of the things that my experience with her so far is she likes to call me. She calls me all the time and because I notice that she calls me, I also try to do the same thing. So in a week at least I must call her once. She may call me like twice. So each time she calls me I quickly try to recharge her phone. But because we talk for a long time, we can speak for, like you know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, one hour. We just be just about so many things you know, and then you know those are the things, because I felt that that is what keeps her going and then she has been very supportive my meeting or relationship with her.
Speaker 3:Even from the beginning of the relationship she usually supports. She used to send small money to my account that I should just use it to take care of myself and all of that. So I was asking my husband is she usually like this? He says she just loves you, so you better enjoy it, you know. So she calls me and then sometimes she sends food, food stuff to me, particularly jebugari. I used to like jebugari, I like jebugari. So I used to like Jebugari, I like Jebugari. So and then she gets the original one.
Speaker 3:Whenever before that one will finish, she will ask me do you still have? I say it's remaining small. She will send to me. And then I respect her a lot and you know, when you are dealing with elderly people and they perceive that you respect them, you love them, there's this kind bond that it creates. You know, we're just so close because I give her her respect, I give her a place, and sometimes she may tell me something that I don't completely agree with. I may tell her, mommy, I don't agree with this one, and she'll say why. So when I say, say okay, and I just allow her to fly, but she knows that, okay, I wasn't comfortable with this one. You know things like that.
Speaker 2:So and then I gave her no, sorry you before you go into the nickname bit, because now I think we're getting into just a few things I wanted us to piggyback on or just back on. Yeah, you said a lot of really interesting things. The first thing you said which broke my heart was the fact that a number of daughters-in-law would say that I don't want to marry someone whose mother is still alive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was heartbreaking because it's because of the many negative experiences and stereotypes that they've heard. That's why they feel that way and it's it's not because a mother-in-law, father-in-law is an added parent. I see it as an added blessing. Yes, I can see one parent or two parents and then you now have two more added to you. It is, it's, but I see the limitless possibilities with that. But again, it's not to invalidate. We don't want, we don't want mothers-in-law to die. We want them to be alive, to enjoy the beauty of the matter, of what marriage brings to their families, right, but the fact that there are people who feel that way even when you go through comments, sometimes online, you will see people say no, I don't want. If I find out that a guy's mother is still alive, I'm not interested, I don't want, and that shouldn't be right, and then people will say I pray not to meet them.
Speaker 2:My god, exactly, I've seen that too and that's so heavy, and I think this is something that a lot of mothers-in-law should pause and think on. It's not enough to say, oh God forbid. There is a reason why people are feeling that way. For me, I see having parents-in-law as an added blessing because it should be an added blessing you should be able to enjoy from. If you have just one and then, or two and then it gets multiplied and you now have four or three, that is supposed to bring more good luck to you, right? More goodness. So I wanted to just touch a bit on that, and it's because there is a role here to play. But there's also something you talked about. You said when she hugged you for some time. I said that as a form of welcoming you to the home right to, and the follow-up statement of you are not my daughter-in-law, you are not.
Speaker 2:That sends a message to the entire family to say that we have to treat the swan as our own. And it just reminds me of something my mom said a long time ago, and she said that some of the healthiest, or the people who have the best and the healthiest relationships with their daughters in law or sons in law are the ones who see them as their own children given to them by God through marriage, and not as outsiders. And that's because your perception of a person influences how you treat that person, how you relate to them or with them. Because if you see them as this one is an outsider, this one is just coming to our family, maybe coming to disrupt the status quo for us. This one is not my child. This one is maybe my son's wife, my daughter's husband. It would influence how you treat that person. You will always see them as an outsider.
Speaker 2:So the statements that Dr Awono's mother-in-law made I think that's very poignant and I think it's something that, even if people don't take anything away from this, it's important to hold on to that, because what her mother-in-law did with that statement and the action of holding her clothes was to send a message to the entire family to say this is our child and a certain would treat her like that and I'm guessing that's the reason why it was so easy for her to be able to respect her, to look out for her mother-in-law to love her and the rest of the family, because she was never made to feel from the beginning like she was an outsider. She was made to feel like she truly and fully belongs, because she does.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, yes, yes, cammy, like you've said it all, um, the only thing I have to add is it not only sent that hug and the statement, not only sent him a message to the family, it also sent a message to dr chrissy I'm not a stranger here. Yeah, this is my family, you know and immediately sets the foundation for the relationship they have. So, yeah, this is a very important lesson. Even if we don't take anything else away from this, we should take this away. A daughter-in-law joining the family or a son-in-law is not an outsider, it's not a stranger, it's not another person. That person is a member of the family. Thank you, dr Christy.
Speaker 2:Please, dr Christy, I'm sure you didn't know how much that statement in itself dismantled a lot of stereotypes and patriarchy on how women, on how women are treated, because the truth is part of the reason how gender stereotypes also influence the relationships between mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law. It's is the fact that it's is the outsider syndrome we call it the others, where you see the other person as an other, as an other person. You have other person different from the rest of us, and oftentimes a lot of our cultures portray women or even daughters-in-law in this case, as outsiders, right, who are not fully committed to the family or are threats to the family. But they are not. And these, these same stereotypes actually influence how mothers-in-law or fathers-in-law sometimes treat their children-in-law, because to them it's unknown that they are feeding into a stereotype about women in general and now more particularly within the family, and that in itself has a way of just breeding tension and discord.
Speaker 1:And also, just to add, this also makes them create all those hopes and tests and examinations that the young man or the young woman Like.
Speaker 3:you need to prove yourself. Yeah, I have to pass To be part of us.
Speaker 1:Yes, to prove that you are now accepted in this beloved so yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, okay. Now, this you are, you are now accepted in this beloved you know. So, yeah, okay, yeah, okay. Let's go to the, the next question, because I think you were you were trying to say something about nicknaming. It'll be, it'll be nice to hear that? What was it you wanted to share?
Speaker 3:okay, this sounds very, very interesting. My mother-in-law is that kind of person that loves I'll just say that loves guys. You know she likes dressing. She likes, you know, when she dresses. You just make comments of how she looks and all of that. So I used to call her Mother A. You know the surname is Awuno. So I say Mother A International. She will now. She will now respond. So anytime I just want to tease her, I'll just say mother eh international, and then that's how we just roll.
Speaker 3:And each time I'm talking with her, you know, there's a way I used to feel it's like I'm talking to my mom. Sometimes the way I even talk with her is I talk with her more often and there are some discussions I have with her, even some serious issues. I discuss with her even more than my own mother, because I feel that there are some things she will understand and, you know, really give me an opinion, an honest opinion that you know I can buy or work with. That really kept us going. So your second question. I don't know if I can continue from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the second question is what are some of the factors that you think have shaped the relationship you both have till today? I think you started talking about them already, but you could please continue.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, okay. One of the things I noticed about her, which she also concurred to, was she told me one day Christy, you like dressing like me. I said, mommy, you got it right. The way I'm seeing you some of the clothes that you are wearing, it looks like what me I should be wearing because she's heading to 80. Then when she wears a short gown and silk pants and all of that, I say those clothes, just keep them for me. When I come to Lagos I'll pick them up. I should not worry that anytime I call anyone, I like I can choose, you know. So that's what she likes.
Speaker 3:She likes taking photos every Sunday when she goes to church and back, you know, I don't know, I wonder, I ask, I say who is your photographer? I say every Sunday somebody will come by, he say the security man will snap her and then she will send it to me. Of course she sends it to some of her children, but they will not respond. But immediately I see it, I'll call her. I say correct, mother, seek her, see, see that you know, very mindful. She feels that. Oh, I know a lot about her character and I send very nice colors to her and those ones I send to her, she says she doesn't make them anyhow. She has a tailor who does a very, very good job on those clothes and they bring it out. Sometimes she will tell me okay, send me styles, even that I'll make, and all of that.
Speaker 3:So that has really shaped our relationship, you know, and it has actually strengthened our bond Because it's like we like the same thing, we do the same thing, you know. And then, in terms of some certain discussions, maybe family secrets because of my relationship with her, those five there are things that ordinarily mother-in-law are not supposed to tell their daughter-in-law. She tells me, when I got married to my husband, this is this and this he. I'm like uncle, oh, your son does the same thing. And then we laugh, you know. So all those things she tells me about, and I'm seeing those things in my husband, those things that she said she had experience with her husband, I'm seeing them again in my own home. So that actually strengthened our bond. And then she calls me all the time and this call sometimes, you know, called for a long time and that makes her happy. But also I just say, ah, thank you, god will bless you and all of that she will just bless me, even if it's just 2,000 Naira, the charge card, you know.
Speaker 3:So that has really strengthened that relationship because it's like I know what she likes. You know there are some things she may tell me these things are expensive in Lagos, high is it in Abuja. I say, okay, don't worry, like Zobo, zobo leaf. You see, there's a particular one that she likes and of course when I visit her, you know I see what she makes, so I'll make I'll all of that. So because I do all those things, you know the bonding is there relationship gets stronger.
Speaker 2:I would be together for about 19 years now, so I think that has partly contributed to, you know, shaping our relationship. I like the nickname bit. You know I like it because I also I I know a number of people who also have like nicknames put for their children-in-law and their parents-in-law, which I think it's it's think it's an endearment. I think when you feel comfortable and when you feel safe with someone, it's so easy to want to give them endearing names or endearing terms.
Speaker 2:But, what I hear also is that the relationship is very symbiotic and that's because you're feeding off the energy she gives you. You feed off that energy, you feed off the love. And when you talk about the fact that she calls you all the time, she calls you even more than you call her. I think that that's again goes back to the discussion around perception. When you see someone as your child, you're not thinking, oh you know, they haven't called me, so me, I'm not going to call them, which is what we hear sometimes. But it's the fact that I'm checking. I'm checking up on my child. I'm checking in to see how my child is doing and being able to thank you.
Speaker 2:These are just heartwarming stories to share and we hope that our listeners are taking something away from this. It starts by setting the tone to make the other person feel safe and something you shared. It's how she even confides in you with things. Again, it goes back for me to the beginning. The foundation was laid right by her and you have fed off that foundation and it's also showing that she was not being disingenuous. It's who she is and she has continued.
Speaker 2:Even 19 years down the line, you are still enjoying that beautiful relationship. You're still touching a bit about some of the benefits of your relationship and we'll go into that because we have that somewhere down the line, but I was just thinking so. Do you think that harmful gender stereotypes contribute to the toxic relationship? It's our hope that we know there are many sweet stories, such as yours, and that's the reason why Nnedi and I felt it was important to highlight the sweetness of the relationship, because it does exist. It may not be as much as the toxic relationship, and that's what we're trying to change. That's what we're contributing to try to change with this episode. But do you think that harmful gender stereotypes contribute to this toxic relationship that we hear most times about mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my answer is yes, Because you also realize that some mothers are over-consensual of their son and sometimes, particularly if he's the only son, it's all about their son and they don't care about you. Some mothers, they bring in things that you don't even know anything about, making you feel less important. So everything is about their son, it's about their family. Your family is not good. You about making you feel less important. So everything is about their son, is about their family. Your family is not good. You are not good, you know.
Speaker 3:And the thing about marriage is that every woman wants to own her husband. You want your husband for yourself. You don't want to share him with another person. You don't want to share him with your family members. You don't want to share him with his own family members. You want to know that this man belongs to me.
Speaker 3:But then when mothers are over-possessive of their sons, it's a big problem Because they see the daughter as an intruder in the family. They see the daughter like you know. It's like a competition between themselves and the daughter-in-law. You can imagine in a home where a mother-in-law lives and the daughter-in-law lives there. The daughter-in-law will cook food, the mother will cook food, the mother will cook food, and when the son comes back home, he is now left to choose whose food that he's supposed to eat. Is it that of his wife? Of course the wife is waiting for him to eat. Is it that of his mother? The mother is also hanging there waiting for him to eat.
Speaker 3:So this is a serious issue when it comes to toxic relationships. It brings about toxic relationships. See, daughter-in-law is expected to go out of her way to do things that she doesn't want to. It's like you just need to be part. You need to do this. If you don't do it, then you are not worthy, you are not fit to be in this house. And then there's too much of expectations. And then a daughter who just came into the home. You don't expect her to know everything that your family wants, or everything that your family needs, or understand the tradition, your own tradition, and then you begin to force her to do those things. So relationship will not be smooth at all.
Speaker 3:In general, the relationship would be toxic because she feels that we don't do this in my house. Why are you asking me to do this when I cook food? My husband will not eat. He will prefer to eat his mother's food. So why am I wasting my time? She may even stop cooking and then remember if they have children.
Speaker 3:You see that everybody in the house is also affected negatively. So this contributes to this kind of toxic relationship between mother and daughter-in-law, because some daughter-in-laws, honestly they can be very stubborn, because they also want things to work in their own way, irrespective of who the mother-in-law is. Because sometimes if you push her to the wall, of course she will definitely react and she may insult the mother-in-law and then insult the husband, particularly when the husband is also not able to make. You know, define relationship this is my mother and this is my wife. Sometimes because the men don't want to also offend their mothers, they tend to just do what she likes them to do and then later you now go inside and then beg your wife don't want to also offend their mothers. They tend to just do what she likes them to do and then later you now go inside and then beg your wife, don't be angry. You know that's the way mama behaves, let's just leave her. You know, when he cannot come out openly between the two of them and draw the line and say this is my mother, this is my wife, this is what I want in.
Speaker 3:In a home where there's sort of competition, the woman will not be comfortable in the house. The mother-in-law too will not be comfortable in the house. That is why sometimes I also, you know, I'm against mother-in-laws living in the same house with their daughter-in-laws, because when you are staying under the same roof, a lot of this relationship, you know, you just see, it's like somebody putting hand inside the bag or inside the clothes, boxing you, you know, fighting you. You don't have peace and everybody. There's tension in the house. There's no peace. The husband is not resting, the mother-in-law is not resting, the daughter-in-law is not resting and sometimes the children, they suffer it. Oh my God, I don't know. I don't know. That's a bad question.
Speaker 2:Because I think you've pulled out certain things A whole lot. Because I think you've pulled out certain things A whole lot, yeah, so when I'm looking at it from a gender lens, some of the things you've pulled out from what you just shared is traditional gender roles and expectations there, usually expectations that women have of other women and, sadly, most of the harmful stereotypes we have. They were laid by men so patriarchal society, but they are often reinforced by women, so mothers-in men, so a patriarchal society, but they are often reinforced by women, so mothers-in-law, a lot of times would see that the duty of the traditional gender role of a woman is X, y, z, not minding the fact that the times have changed, right, we're in an evolving world. You also have a world where daughters or sons are also working, doing heavy lifting, you know. So they see, mother-in-laws will see themselves as it is their duty to enforce these gender norms, where this is our expectation of what a good wife should be. So if you're not living up to that expectation, then there is a problem. Forget that you made a comment where you say like she's less, like the daughter-in-law is less important, because that is usually from traditional gender roles and norms.
Speaker 2:Remember, women are raised to fight for men's attention. Women are raised to keep the gaze of men. That's that's what women are often raised to do. So a mother-in-law sometimes would feel that my duty is to reinforce that you keep my son as an attention. My duty is to reinforce that you keep my son as dominant. My duty is to reinforce that you keep my son as an attention. My duty is to reinforce that you keep my son as dominant. My duty is to reinforce that you keep my son as happy To be all and end all in your family. You are not that important to us and it's so funny because and sad at the same time, and I think it's just pulling out how traditional gender roles and expectation of women also influence this and influence mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationships, because we don't hear the same most times about fathers-in-law and their sons-in-law. Most times you hear that they get along so well. They go to play golf, they drink together. Because again, you raise the issue of competition, fighting for men's competition. That is how women are often socialized. These are things that even Chimamanda has talked about in a lot of her discussions to try to dismantle, you know, harmful gender norms. It's how we raise girls to fight for the attention of women. Your mother-in-law was also raised in the same society as you, so she's also fighting for that attention and it looks like this intruder has come now to take some of that At the same time, another some of that At the same time.
Speaker 2:Another thing I hear from the gender side is the power dynamics and control. So, mothers-in-law, you know, in patriarchal societies like ours, they've internalized this belief that older women have authority to dictate how younger women should behave within a family structure, right, and so this reinforces a toxic hierarchy where your mother-in-law, or a mother-in-law, will see herself as superior, entitled to control or judge how you behave or what you do. And what that does is that it is counterproductive, because then sometimes, like you highlighted, people start to fight back, because now this is another woman who wants to also assert her own independence. And when you try to do that, sometimes you're faced with criticism. You're faced, you know, with harsh criticism. You're faced with harsh treatment. You're made to feel like you don't belong, and all of that leads to friction.
Speaker 2:So I'm just pulling out, as you share, some of the gendered elements and how stereotypes contribute to these relationships, because, again, a lot of the mothers-in-law are products of their society, so they may not even be aware that they are reinforcing a harmful stereotype or harmful practices, and this is an opportunity for them to be enlightened. When it comes to that is to say that it goes back to the first thing we opened with, you can stop history from repeating itself. I think it's also to acknowledge that your daughter-in-law or your son-in-law are also their own human. They are also their own individual and they also have ideas. They also have their own insights as well, and that should be respected, that should be trusted, that should be celebrated, and not try to impose what you think should be done. This conversation is interesting, but it's also heavy.
Speaker 3:It is Very be done this. This conversation is interesting, but it's also heavy, so we continue in the next episode.