Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
14. Marriage and Gender Stereotypes (pt 1)
Can traditional gender roles truly foster genuine harmony in marriage? This podcast episode tackles the impact of gender stereotypes on marriage, emphasizing the importance of mutual respect and equality. It features a conversation with Father William Orbih, who discusses the roots of these stereotypes, the harm they cause in relationships, and the need for critical reflection to foster healthy partnerships. We explore:
• Discussion on harmful gender norms in marriages
• Importance of critical thinking and questioning tradition
• Exploring the role of colonialism in shaping gender dynamics
• Analyzing the interpretation of biblical texts regarding marriage
• Importance of mutual submission for healthy relationships
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Hello everyone, welcome to your favorite podcast, which is the Genderish Podcast, a podcast that is designed to challenge and explore harmful gender stereotypes. One conversation at a time. It's your girl, kemi, and I'm joined with the usual suspect, as always Daddy, hello guys. Yes, and on today's podcast, we actually have a very special guest. I know we tell you all the time that we have special guests, which we do, but today's guest is extra, extra special, and you will find out why in no distant time, and we will be exploring the topic gender stereotypes and marriage. Did I hear someone's mind go? Yes, so we will be talking gender stereotypes and marriage, and our guests will be doing such great justice in terms of exploring some random questions or unpacking some random questions that we hear and we see all around us when it comes to marriage and gender stereotypes. Yep, neddy, before we ask our guest to introduce himself, do you have anything to say on this topic?
Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to this interesting episode. It's interesting because, number one, the guest is nobody you would expect to treat this topic. The guest has no relationship with this topic at all. Then, secondly, I am super excited because we're hoping that you walk away with your eyes wide open, like we're hoping that people begin to see themselves, you know, reflected in the issues, the topics, the questions that will be raised in this episode. So please, guys, if you've not paid attention to any topic, please, we implore you, pay attention to this. It promises to be very enlightening and educating.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so. On that note, I'd like to invite our guest to please introduce himself.
Speaker 3:Okay, my name is William Orby. I am a Catholic priest of the Archdiocese of Abuja in Nigeria. I'm also a student of a lot of different areas, including theology, philosophy, theology and philosophy. Of course you know part of seminary training, seminary formation, but in the last few years I've also taken courses in peace studies, strategic conflict resolution and also African literature and history. You know, I just finished a dissertation on African literature and resistance, you know, towards the colonial theology of hope.
Speaker 1:And I teach Christian anthropology at the St John's School of Theology in Minnesota, United States. This is where we say because people, we have a padre in the house, a reverend father in the house, who's going to be sharing with us. You see, the people, the quality and the caliber of people we bring on this show to come and explore these discussions. It also lets people know that the issue of gender stereotypes is very multifaceted and it affects everyone and just every space that we find ourselves in. So thank you so much, Father Obi, for honoring our invitation to come and speak on this important topic and on that note.
Speaker 1:Yes, on that note.
Speaker 2:We'd like to kick off with the first question and it's also important I mentioned at this juncture, guys, this is an unbiased umpire absolutely because if it was a panel of men, married men everyone go.
Speaker 2:Ah, women will go up in arms. Oh, they brought the men, they're not listening to the women's perspective. And then if it's a panel of married women, oh my god, that's what patriarchy. You're stifling us. We have gotten the best of the best an unbiased umpire. He. He's not in this institution, so he will side with neither the right nor the left. We're going to have a very enlightening conversation with a holistic view, because this person relates with both sides without choosing a side. I thought it was important.
Speaker 1:But, nnedi, I think another thing that is important is that priests and pastors and imams do play very strong roles in marriages because, at the end of the day, they're the ones who join people in marriage right, at least for those who are bible believing or correct, you know, they're the ones who do the joining. So I think it's important to also get someone of father obby's caliber to this issue, given that, like we all say and we know that, the institution of marriage was ordained by God. But I agree with you, and I agree when you say an unbiased umpire, because, yes, there will be so much to talk about as we dissect this topic. So our very first question, tata Obi, is every time we talk about gender stereotypes, we speak to the issues of power dynamics, we speak to the issues of gender dynamics, we speak to the issues of gender norms and roles, traditional roles and cultural norms. So in what ways do harmful gender norms affect marriages?
Speaker 3:Yeah, once again, thank you for inviting me to be part of this podcast discussing this very important issue. So this issue is important to me, even though I'm not married. You know I take no side, I take all sides right. Especially, I always see myself as taking the side of those who are victims. You know those who are on the margins, those who are oppressed. You know, for every issue there are people who are the receiving end. You know those who have to suffer as a result of harmful gender practices or harmful gender norms. So yeah, to your question.
Speaker 3:I think I would say harmful gender norms are at the root of every marriage problem in Africa, in Nigeria most specifically. You know the context I'm very familiar with. In the last nine years that I've been priest and doing ministry both in Nigeria and in the US, I've had to deal with marital issues. And at the root of every marital issue I've had to deal with I've had to, you know, engage with is someone having a wrong gender notion. It's either people presuming that a woman is not equal to the man in a marriage, you know the girl child is not equal to the boy child, or the man is not, the wife is not equal to the husband, you know. The wife is not submissive, you know. And then the wife is asking for too much. The wife is not understanding, you know, with the husband who is supposed to be the head of the family. So at the root of every marital issue, at the root of every family challenge, there is a gender question that has been wrongly approached.
Speaker 2:Father Obi, please can you say that again.
Speaker 3:Louder. Yeah, I can. I definitely should. At the root of back.
Speaker 1:At the back. We need to hear.
Speaker 3:You know, at the root of every family issue, at the root of every marital issue, there is a gender question that has been wrongly approached or wrongly answered, and one of the things I've always talked about recently is that many of the issues we face in Nigeria are of a fundamental kind. There are basic issues we need to rethink, reimagine and then many of our problems would go away. During my time doing a course in philosophy my first degree in philosophy one of the philosophers we studied is Francis Bacon, I think an English jurist, francis Bacon. The most favorite stuff from Francis Bacon is called the Idols of the Mind. He plays with this idea that there are things that shape the way people think, the way people behave in society, and he calls them Idols of the Mind. These things are not real, but then they have real consequences for individuals' behavior, the way society, people in society behave. And part of the Idols of the Mind are notions we presume. We say women should be submissive, or the man is supposed to be the head of the house, or the man can cheat, but the woman should not cheat. It does not make any sense and I'm like, okay, where are you reading this from? Where are your sources, you know, for this we say the boy child is more important than the girl child. You know, because the boy child continues the name of the family. And I'm like what do we really mean when we say these things? You know where are our sources. I'm not saying everything I've mentioned does not make any sense. But when you go closer, you know, to probe these things, to probe some of these notions, you just discover that they are in air. But then they are the way of shaping the way we see reality, shaping the way we behave in society, and then they have real-time or real-life consequences for people in society.
Speaker 3:So I would invite all of us Africans you know, maybe the same thing can be said about the West, about Asia, but I'm talking about Africa, so I'm not making any comparison I would invite us Africans to begin to probe every idea. Don't just accept something because it has always been said. We also say it's cultural. But you know, recently I've asked the question what is cultural? Are we talking about cultural heritage? Are we talking about the culture of our ancestors or are we talking about our own culture? Because as far as I'm concerned, culture is the way of life of a people, so it's present tense. My culture is what I eat today, and if pizza is part of what I eat every day, that has become part of my culture. You know, pounded yam and cornbread would have been the only food my ancestors ate. That was their culture. My culture includes both pounded yam, which I like my best food, but also pizza, rice, all kinds of rice, maybe Chinese food, you know.
Speaker 3:So culture is the present way of life and it must continue to change. We must continue to probe ideas, cultural notions. You know, we cannot be a people who are just addicted to the past. We cannot continue to treat women in the way our ancestors treated women and say it is cultural. We cannot continue to treat the girl child the way our ancestors treated, you know, the female children and say this is cultural, must be a people who are committed to finding best practices, probing notions, probing our way of doing things, looking for you know how to always improve ourselves and improve our society. Yeah, so I'll stop here on the question okay neddy do you want to go first?
Speaker 3:how are you?
Speaker 1:feeling. I'm feeling great, and, and the reason is one thing uh, father obby brings out which is something personally I have struggled with for a long time with nigerians and africans is critical thinking.
Speaker 1:Yes, to be able to question everything, and I think it's because we grow up in times where you are told that you cannot question tradition, you cannot question your elders, you cannot question, so you're just, you are supposed to just take it and move on. And that in itself is detrimental, because then you have people who grow up and accept and it's the reason why a lot of the norms continue to replicate themselves or continue to be reinforced and perpetuated from generation to generation is because there are not a lot of people who are probing the discussion around. You know a boy child being more important than a girl child. That is even the foundation and the root of it all, and it expresses itself even in how marriages are conducted, how marriages are seen, you know. So the element of critical thinking is very key, and that's one of the things that has helped, even in terms of the movement or the push for gender equality. Gender equity is because people continue to question. Why would you say it is okay for one group to be able to vote and another group cannot vote? Why is it okay to say one group needs approval to be able to open a bank account and the other group doesn't? And all of these things also points to what father says culture is ever evolving. Culture is made by men, right, it's made by people. So it means that it is subject to change. And we must learn to probe, we must learn to ask questions.
Speaker 1:I don't know how, maybe because our generation is a bit different. So, but even amongst our generation, there's still people who hold on to these very traditional beliefs and when you ask them, they'll say oh, that's what my mother said, that's what my father said, that's what our grandparents said, and my reaction to that is so, where's your critical thinking skills that your grandparents or great grandparents did it? Does it make it right that children are married off into marriages, because that's what has been done? Does that make it right that women are going through female genital mutilation, because that's what tradition says? Does that make it right? So it's being able to question things from the lens of the human angle, the ideologies that we believe in yeah, all of those things are right.
Speaker 1:So it's being able to question things from the lens of the human angle, the ideologies that we believe in yeah, all of those things are important. So I'm glad that father brought that out that even in marriage you also need to question, you need to probe a lot of the things. You believe a lot of things. You think you know a lot of the things that you have. Why do you believe them? Why do you know them? Have you also analyzed them from your own mind to ascertain?
Speaker 1:is this relevant for our time and for today. And it's good that he talks about the girl child, because yesterday was the International Day of the Girl. We also do have the International Day of the Boy, it's just that a lot of people don't know about it, but it does exist. Yeah, to celebrate the boy child. But the issue of importance of when people say, oh, the daughters will marry off, so they don't keep your legacy like how can your seed not keep your legacy? So long as that person is your seed, your legacy continues with them. It doesn't matter if they get married or not, if they change their surnames or not. They still carry on the legacy. So I've never really that argument for me has always just been very um.
Speaker 2:And most fathers. Most fathers will tell you that their daughters are the ones that care for them. Of course, yeah. So how these it's also a current name and all that but these names that a lot of us are fighting for, fighting the people. What are the origins of these names, like, why?
Speaker 3:You know, like just for coming quickly, you know.
Speaker 3:So, when I talked, talked about the idols of the mind from francis bacon, right, like these are things that prevent or prevent us from following the logical conclusion of rational thinking or even of our experience.
Speaker 3:So, even though we constantly see that it's the girl child that will ultimately remain close to hope right and take care of parents when they grow old, remember to send, remember to call every week or twice in the week, but somehow, because we've been able to like make an idol of this idea that it's the male child that keeps the name of the family, you know that keeps the family in perpetuity. So even those experiences do not connect, you know, for most africans. So we continue to like perpetuate this myth because it has become an idol, it has become part of the way our mind, minds are structured. But then there is another factor in the african society we must never ignore when we talk about any issue or every issue. I'm talking about colonialism. You, colonialism was a massive interruption. But even though we have seen the end of official colonialism, many scholars would say we're in the era of neocolonialism, exactly, and even more recent scholars.
Speaker 3:We talk about the coloniality of power, the colonial power matrix, you know. So we must not ignore some of these external factors. You know. That just makes it impossible for us to follow or to see to the logical inference of our logical thinking. So Nigerians think, right, nigerians think we are thinkers. That's why we do so well in school, write a lot of articles, write books, do research. But we have a lot of things mitigating against us following, you know. But we have a lot of things mitigating against us following. You know, people often talk about tribalism. You know, whatever that means, there's a lot of tribalism in Nigeria, and I'm not just talking about the difference between Yoruba and Igbo, I'm talking about the tendency for us to always defend our identities, you know. So men would always be behind men when it's a war against women. So, even without looking at the facts of the matter, I would say, oh, I have to side with my fellow man. You know. We say, uh, you know, women, we sometimes take the side of women, you know.
Speaker 2:And so on and so forth. Women take the side of men. Yes, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:A woman will fight yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay, reserved, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would explain that with. You know the coloniality Coloniality of power, coloniality of sexuality. You know coloniality of economics. You know we see those patterns always playing out in African countries. So you know, recently I've been doing a lot of writing and researching on colonialism and neocolonialism and the coloniality of power. Some of my friends now call me the decolonial, but I think we need to pay more attention to that, you know, to that reality. It's just 60 years ago that we left, we broke free.
Speaker 3:We broke free, so it's not too long a time. It's not, so it's not too long a time. It's not too long a time, so we shouldn't be surprised if those factors continue to affect our way of life.
Speaker 2:I'm very glad Father William, you brought this up because, casting my mind back, when we look at Nigerian history, we can't really talk about major breakthroughs in diverse sectors, from government to driving to everything, without talking about women. So when we talk about all these cultures, women are supposed to be seen, not to be heard. Women are supposed to be the place of the woman. That was not our culture.
Speaker 2:Like you said, colonialism, it wasn't our culture About women's riots, it wasn't men, it was the women who stood up and said no to protect the homes. About women's riots the first woman to drive a car from a random cutie, it was a woman. It wasn't a man that said, hey, go get in that car. You know it was. A lot of groundbreaking things happened because of women, even before the groundbreakingness of things happening In the family dynamics. And from the eastern part, yes, they'll say the men were warriors, but there was, culturally, there was, equality of sexes because, yeah, because in the homestead, the way they lived, the man had his, the woman had hers.
Speaker 2:If he had, they'll say, oh, polyg, because they put that in line. The men were polygamists because of economics. Yes, they were farmlands. It was about money, it was about survival. So, even when they married loads of women, immediately you came into a family, a homestead, a residence. You would notice the independence and the equality yes, the man had his thoughts, his obedience. The women all had their individual and their individual. The equality yes, the man had his heart, his OB. The women all had their individual and their individual kitchens.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:So you know it was so. Everyone felt they were contributing something, everyone felt they mattered. So there was no need for rivalry, there was no need for a lot of funny, funny things that happened until someone came and told us no, the way you live was wrong exactly, yeah and, like you said, we didn't question exactly, neddy.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the crimes of colonialism that has been recently studied is epistemic violence. Yeah, so many of this history you are referencing, you know, women's independence, women's economic contribution. From elia r Rasomkuti protesting and housing an alake.
Speaker 1:Is it an alake?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, some of the beautiful aspects of our histories were destroyed by, you know, based on the colonial agenda. That's true, you know. So, rather than have you know, recently, cheung Kuti, who is the grandson of Fumilayo, has been screaming. So, rather than we remembering Fumilayo for being a woman who led a protest that house-taught a traditional ruler, all we think about is the fact that she drove a car. She drove, yes, who cares who is driving a car? Exactly so the most important thing about Fumilayo Is that she was. Is that she drove? True, exactly, you know, but colonialism tells us what to what kind of?
Speaker 3:history, we should keep, we should focus on, and then they destroy A lot of other histories, even sexual and gender. You know Ideas. In Africa, a lot of minorities Are suffering as a result of Our bigotry. Yes, you know, if we go close to actual history, we'll see that a lot of these things are built on lies. You know a lot of.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:That we hold on to. You know, traditional African societies had a place for everyone, everyone, including those who were not conforming to the so-called norm. You know there was a place for those who were struggling even with their sexuality. In traditional African societies. In contemporary African societies we say it was never our culture. What are we talking about? That's a lie.
Speaker 2:I pity young men, you know, recently, when I hear them say I put the woman in the home. She can't earn more than me, she can't earn more than her father. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:But you know, those things also had their roots in industrialization as well. Yes, so going back to the discussion on colonization. It also had its roots in the industrial boom, when there was industrialization, yes, and it was a Western ideology for men to go out and work, western ideology for men to go out and walk and women to stay back in the home to take care of the home. And that was where the issue of power coming from who earns more money?
Speaker 2:of course, if you're working, you're going to be earning more money, and that was the power dynamics that is shifting, because it wasn't that way traditionally in the morning, the only people who woke up and had breakfast were the babies in the family.
Speaker 1:In the morning, traditionally, everybody woke up and went to work.
Speaker 2:And where was the work In the farms? So while the men were doing the heavy lifting, of tilling the ground, the women were doing the planting, the beautification, and then there they would cook and everyone would gather, eat, and you know, the women would control the children and then the men. You know. So we saw the dynamics.
Speaker 2:It control the children about, and then the men you know. So we saw the dynamics. It was equality. As soon as you came, we, they got back home. It was the same thing everyone rested at the same time, everyone at the same thing, everyone. You know it was. So what on earth where are these traditions from? Like father william said, we need to question, we need to shift, we need to yes, we need.
Speaker 3:We need to stop being addicted to the past, right like the past is meant to be. I mean, where's the bell?
Speaker 3:you know yeah so there's this crazy addiction, you know, to the past. We used to do this. I'm like why don't you ask why this was done in the past exactly and then understand if you need to continue to do it in the present right, like if the factors are still there, if the environment is still that way, then we can continue to do what we used to do in the past. You know, like there are a lot of things mitigating. We think we are human beings. You know aristotle will say man, or the human being is a rational animal, which is very true. You know we, we have rationality. We cannot help but think. In fact, sometimes the problem is overthinking, right, as we say in Nigeria, thinking is never the issue, but the question is, are there factors mitigating against following our thoughts? I want to read a passage from scripture very quickly, okay, and then just very briefly use it to like summarize some of the points I've already made. So Ephesians, chapter 5 is one of those readings people will always read during marriage, will always read during weddings Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 21, maybe to 23. So the Bible says be subject to one another. Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. That's Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 21. Then verse 22,. The Bible says so. I stop here. Unfortunately, because of our patriarchal, which is part of the idols of our minds as Africans, because of patriarchy which we have not questioned enough, which we part of the idols of our minds as Africans, because of patriarchy which we have not questioned enough, which we have not probed enough, when we encounter this passage, we somehow ignore verse 21. We're subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. In other words, the ideal Christian marriage, the ideal in Christian marriage is mutual subjection, submission or mutual submission, right like it's not a one-sided thing. And then even the second verse. If you understand the analogy saint paul is using I'm saying this at the very beginning of the podcast, so I don't forget, because this is like my christian message to christians in nigeria, if you want to put it that way if you understand the analogy that saint paul is using the body of Christ, you know the church as the body of Christ. And if you also try to understand where he got this analogy from, then you will know the meaning of this passage. It's not talking about a one-sided subjection. That's like as far from the truth as it possible can be.
Speaker 3:So when St Paul before he became a good guy. When he was going to Damascus, you know to like, he got letters from the high priest in Jerusalem and wanted to go to this place called Damascus to arrest Christians and possibly kill some of them. And then he had this encounter with the Lord Jesus. And then Jesus did not say to him so St Paul was already persecuting Christians in Jerusalem, he just wanted to take his persecution to the next level. That's why he decided to make this trip to Damascus. So when St Paul had that encounter, that very important, significant encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, jesus did not query him for persecuting Christians. He did not say Paul, saul, saul, why are you persecuting Christians? Jesus did not even say why are you persecuting my followers or my disciples? Jesus said why are you persecuting my followers or my disciples? Jesus said why are you persecuting me? So St Paul was kind of really, really taken aback, like I'm not persecuting you. I did not even meet you. I was doing theological training at the feet of Rabbi Gamaliel I think I may be getting that name wrong when you were doing your public ministry in Galilee and Jerusalem and environs. So I never even saw you physically. So how did I persecute you? And then Jesus told him I am the one you are persecuting when you are persecuting Christians.
Speaker 3:What St Paul learned on the way to Damascus is the fact that the church and Christ cannot be distinguished from each other.
Speaker 3:So the church is the body of Christ, meaning Christ married the church and that marriage made the church and Christ perfectly one, so that when you are touching the church you're actually touching Christ. So when St Paul talks about the church, when St Paul talks about the church as the body of Christ, he's making reference to this encounter. So when he uses that analogy of the body when he discusses marriage, he's trying to tell us that after marriage, man and wife or husband and wife have become so joined together, perfectly one, that there is really no distinction. So when Sempo says the husband is the head of the wife, it's not synonymous to the husband as the headmaster or the CEO or the organ, it's simply saying the husband is head, part of the body. So the head is also the body. So the head is not different from the body. There is nothing like a head. The head is there and then the body is there. That's a life, you know.
Speaker 3:So this analogy does not, or this particular teaching in ephesians, chapter 5, verse 21, 22 and so on and so forth, does not talk about subjection of wife to a husband. Rather, it talks about subjection of wife to a husband and husband to wife, or, let's say more perfectly, it talks about the fact that husband and wife have become so joined together that there is really no distinction. So this should be the ideal of Christian marriage. This is what we should pursue. So when we marry, of course, humanly speaking, you never get to that point where you are really really one with your spouse, but that should be an ideal we are pursuing. The church of God and the community of believers should be speaking to this ideal, and the more we speak to it, the better the chances of us, of many people, reaching it. What I see in Nigeria is that when people want to enter into marriage, they have all the wrong ideas. The man is not looking for a woman he loves and who loves him. He's looking for a woman who is submissive. What do we?
Speaker 1:even mean by submissive, by submission.
Speaker 3:You know, and I'm like you know, and I'm like even for friendship. If Dangote has to be my friend, and we must really be friends, it means when we are in the room together, when the whole world is cut out, I should be able to knock his head, you know, and say, and call him a nickname, even despite his wealth. If I'm still not able to do that, even in, even when the whole world is not watching, even when it's teased, we're not, we're not getting re-united right, then we are not friends. So with one-sided submission you cannot find love. So most marriages in Nigeria, as someone who has celebrated many, as someone who has been part of the planet of so many, also as someone who knows a lot of married people, so many married people, I think many marriages in Nigeria are not founded on the one word Christian marriages should be founded upon, which is love.
Speaker 3:Marriages in Nigeria are founded on all the wrong ideas, you know one-sided submission, gender inequality, the lack of full humanity for women, you know, and these many other notions. So until we begin to rethink these things, until we begin to like, approach scripture and interpret these things properly, you know I'm not, I'm not okay as a Catholic priest. I'm not blaming other churches, you know. Normally in Nigeria, that's what I always do. I'm blaming most churches, including Catholic churches, ministers also, because I've heard priests preach this particular passage of scripture wrongly and I'm like is this too difficult to see, you know? And so on and so on.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, maybe I should stop here for now. Yeah, so we just need to begin to reaccess, yes, many of the notions we take for granted. You know, we need to become a people who are probing things, people who are actually listening to new ideas, you know, and ask relevant questions and try to say, okay, if this is new and this is true, then I should change, you should transform me, you know, and not just say, oh, this is not the way we have been doing it, we cannot begin to do it this way. You know, this is an abomination, this is new. We should not be scared of new. If new is better, we should embrace it, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. See, father William, I don't even know where to start, but let's just continue with the same cadence, because I believe you have said are answering two other questions, questions. In fact, you've delved deeply into two other questions. The first one is the burden slash, responsibility of sustaining a marriage. Where does it lie? And the other question is does male dominance have a space in loving and happy marriages? You already started, you know, touching on this subject. There's two questions. So, just if you don't mind, expand a bit more, because when you talk about considering a marital union as what Christ has with his church, like, in that they are the same. They are one and the same. Therefore, people should submit to each other. It's not a power dynamic. One is not, you know, higher than the other. When you say that, you've already begun to hit the nail on the head. So, if you don't mind, please just expand a bit more on these two questions yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 3:I'll start with the first one quickly, then, you know, go to the second one. Yeah, the, the body lies on the two individuals who are married. You know, especially from a christian perspective, also from a civil perspective, I don't want to speak to other religions, you know so that I don't. You know, yeah, I have to respect other religions. I don't know Islam enough to speak to it. Yeah, so for a Christian marriage, the body, the body, lies on the two individuals who are entering into marriage. So marriage is a union of two individuals, it's not a union of two families. I keep making this point everywhere I go. The families are just part of the support system. Right, it's the man who lives. Like the book of Genesis, which Jesus references in the gospel, the man leaves his father and mother. He leaves. So you leave your family and then you form a new family. You are still part of the former family, so living is not getting expelled, you know so. You are still part of the former family. So, yes, we're always going to be part of your siblings life, your parents life. But you have started a new relationship, a new family, you know. So the burden of making this new family work lies on your shoulders, the husband and the wife. Now, I am not ignoring the importance, you know, of family, support, marriage, but we must get it right. It must begin from understanding, you know, understanding that there is a new family.
Speaker 3:Now, before I go back to you know, making another point, let me just touch on the second question quickly Male dominance. Yes, once there is no equality, things like love and friendship are just impossible. Aristotle, so many years ago, made the same point Friendship is a relationship of equals. In other words, we must accept equality or we must perform equality in order for us to be truly friends. So marriage and friendship, love, is just impossible in an atmosphere of male dominance.
Speaker 3:As a man who is not married, who is not planning to get married, I've never been able to understand the Nigerian man's fascination with dominance or with a submissive wife. Why are you looking for a submissive wife? If you want a submissive wife, why don't you go buy a slave? So this is very stupid of me to say. Of course, nobody is unequal to another right, but this is how mad it sounds in my ears. When you are trying to get married, look for someone you love, someone who also loves you, and then try to make it work. Try to build on the love. Try to create so many beautiful moments because they're not going to last, right, like till death. Do us part. There's going to be death sometime in the future 40 years, 50 years, 80 years, you know. 50 years, 80 years, you know. So why not make a loving relationship? You know, understanding that both of you are partners, co and equal partners, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3:Another point I need to make about interpreting ancient texts. So scripture is holy, sacred, revealed, and so on and so forth, but scripture is also an ancient text. When you approach an ancient text, it is always important to try to understand the context. You know, we need to go behind what is written to the context. Try to imagine the people who are writing this.
Speaker 3:Interestingly, the 69 books of the Bible, or 73, as Catholics would count. Right, the 73 or 69 books of the Bible. Not a single one is written by a woman. You know, not a single one is written by a woman. You know, not a single one was written by a woman. Right, and many of the stories are told from a male perspective perspective. You know so. And then we have, we have.
Speaker 3:We had a contest that was extremely patriarchal. You know it was. It was the man that can't in, I think in the book of is it exodus, leviticus or the tronomy? I'm sorry, I should know. I should know these books, right?
Speaker 3:But yeah, so in one of those books where the law, the law of Moses, the Mosaic law, was given, if you read a section on the crime of rape, you would weep, you would be so disgusted, right, like if you rape a woman as a man, rape a young girl as a man, you have the chance of marrying her. And if you refuse to marry her, what happens? You would have to wait patiently when another man agrees to marry her and then the man decides that he's not going to pay the full bright price because she has been violated, she's no longer chastised. That's a stupid concept in patriarchal society. Then the man who raped her would have to make up the difference, so that's the only punishment for it, you know. So if you are ready to marry and nobody's going to like, cut off your manhood yeah or if you are willing to patiently wait and make up the difference.
Speaker 3:So you, you cannot just take scripture and apply it. You know, you must go behind the context and understand. Okay, this, this is not a law coming from the lord, this is a law that has been mediated by men who are the interest of keeping women under control.
Speaker 3:You know yes yes, you know, by weak men. Yes. So male dominance once there is male dominance, there is no happy marriage. It's just impossible. If you have female dominance also, there is no happy marriage. Mutual submission. So submission is important, but you have female dominance also, there is no happy marriage. Mutual submission. So submission is important, but it has to be mutual.
Speaker 3:So one of the very common things I hear in Nigeria that I really like, even though people don't use it from this understanding, don't mostly use it from this understanding I'm trying to explore when they say you know, when we refer to, when I'm asking a man about his wife, I say how is madam now? And if I'm asking the woman about the husband, I say how is organa? I love those concepts because it also speaks to this mutual submission. So, yes, your husband is your organ, but at the same time you are his madam. So I'm not, you know. So, yes, once you balance it, it's just okay. It's when it's one sided that it becomes a problem. You know, I should serve my wife because she is my madam and my wife should serve me because indeed I am her organ. I'm only against a one-sided understanding of how this dynamic should work. So marriage is not a society where you know people are not responsible to each other. Anything goes, you know, any high, any low. No, it's a very sacred institution.
Speaker 1:So if your Lord she's, your she's your, she's your, you know your father, I so, as you speak, my, my head is swimming.