Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
Ever wonder how stereotypes can be limiting? Join hosts Kemi and Nnedi on this podcast as they explore the impact of stereotypes In our quest for a fair and balanced society. Through engaging discussions inspired by real-life experiences, expert insights, and observations from our ever-evolving world, Kemi and Nnedi will challenge prevailing gender stereotypes, one episode at a time.
Founder & Creator: Kemi Gbadamosi - 2023
Gender•ish with Kemi & Nnedi
15. Marriage and Gender Stereotypes (pt 2)
Can traditional gender roles truly foster genuine harmony in marriage?
In this final episode of the season, we conclude our discussion on Marriage and Gender Stereotypes, with Fr. William Orbih.
Thank you for sticking with us, and Happy Holidays! See you in 2025!
To join the conversation, pose a question, or share your experience with negative gender stereotypes, please write to us at genderishp@gmail.com. Follow us on social media at genderishp on Instagram and @genderishp on X .
Remember, a just and equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias.
This podcast is produced by Crown City Studios.
Creator: Oluwakemi Gbadamosi
Welcome back. That's because we kind of realize that people don't know that by their condition, in our socialization, how much gender stereotypes influence marriages so badly, negatively, and even homes. And there's something you said because I remember even the Bible says that when God made them, he made them men and women equal right. And that's my litmus test If our God is so fair and so just, why would he be okay with treating one of his own less than the other? That doesn't seem to be like a God who is fair and just right Because that's how I try to rationalize and like no, this cannot be God, because we know he's a just God, we know he's a fair God, you know and by so, if he made the men and women equal and all, then he means that his desire is that they are treated equal, they are treated fairly after his own likeness and after his own characteristics as God.
Speaker 1:To be fair, I tend to put that out there when, especially when, I hear certain comments said in comments and I know you talked about the fact that both of you are married to each other it's not families, because the typical notion that we have, even growing up, is that, oh, when you marry, you marry the whole family and that in itself can sometimes be overwhelming for for people. Because, exactly, yes, because you're saying I, I married the whole family. I'm even trying, I'm trying to figure out this best relationship with the person.
Speaker 2:I'm with, and then you're adding everybody You're adding everybody to it.
Speaker 1:But we've also seen cases where people get flagged. Especially even I would say mostly women get flagged if they are not, you know, getting along with every member of the family if they are not participating in every family gathering. Not participating in every family gathering, not participating in every like, it's almost like you subject your individuality and your life just because you are married and maybe we could touch upon that a bit because I think it's important, because building relationships and that's something Nnedi and I have talked about building relationships can be tough.
Speaker 1:It's tough for the two people who were strangers before, now lovers, trying to build a family and a home. I love families. I think families, that families, are a blessing for us, especially if you have a good family that is supportive and that is kind and helpful. It is a blessing. But one thing I hear you speak when you say that is perhaps the issue of boundaries, and I don't think a lot of our culture are very permissible to boundaries, like you should have boundaries If you could just speak to that.
Speaker 1:Still on the question of the burden and responsibility of sustaining a marriage, where does it lie?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you've said it all. You know it's difficult enough to learn to live with an individual. The expectation is that you have to learn to live with an entire. The expectation is that you have to learn to live with an entire extended family Community. So I think words matter. So part of what I have been doing in the last few years is to challenge people in my little space you know the people I interact with all the time, especially Nigerians and Africans to be careful in their usage of words. For instance, I go visit my older or younger brother. I don't call their wives my wife. They are my sister-in-law, so there is a specific name for the relationship I have with them, and that changes the equation. So in Africa we don't carefully use words. And because we don't carefully use words, the careless use of words creates careless burdens on people or careless realities, you know. So a woman is married into a family. Let me use, let me say it in the Nigerian way yeah, that pisses us off.
Speaker 3:Yes, and everybody is saying you are our wife. Yes, and everybody's saying you're our wife?
Speaker 2:No, she's not our wife, she's the wife of this particular guy.
Speaker 3:I was reading a novel, the Uncertainty of Hope, because I was reading it, I was using it to work on a paper. I was writing the Uncertainty of Hope by Valery from Zimbabwe. I think I may be wrong. I just always check these things. My memory sometimes fails me and then you see what I'm talking about play out.
Speaker 3:This woman loses the husband to HIV AIDS and then immediately the assumption everyone presumed that the younger brother of the man should just inherit her. And even when she refused, it was like she was mad. You know how dare you refuse. You are married to this family, so this family owns you. Now that the original husband you had is no more is no more. We can simply decide. You know the next person you should deal with. So we should be careful in our usage of words. You know we should be careful in our usage of words and we should always understand that, according to the law of the country and according to the teaching of scripture, marriage is not a family union. Marriage is the union of two individuals. I would finally say on this particular question eventually you know when you marry a man and then get to know his family, or marry a woman and get to know her family, you may eventually find that you are even closer to one. You know one of your love or the mom, but that should not be forced. That should not be forced.
Speaker 2:That should happen naturally.
Speaker 1:One more time.
Speaker 3:You know. So if gradually you become really close to the man, you marry his sister and you become their steers.
Speaker 1:Beautiful.
Speaker 3:But that should not be forced. That should not be forced. When one of my brothers was getting married, the priest who preached made a lot of wonderful points, but the point I took very serious was when he said he was talking to us, you know, talking to all of us members of the family of the two people who were married. He said to us give them space, do not visit them for at least two years.
Speaker 3:Or if you must visit them, don't spend the night for at least two years so that they can get to know each other more In this new reality. When they have been able to find a way of even talking about all of you, gossiping about all of you, then it's safe to visit them, because now it's going to be, you know, more difficult to destroy their union. Well, I took that serious. I don't think any other person listened. You know, as usual, nobody listens during sermons. I know, yeah.
Speaker 1:But thank you very much, father. I think you've done great justice. Justice on on on those two questions. The bit about giving space is very important because it allows um newlyweds to also find themselves and and center themselves in their marriage again, two people coming together. I always tell people relationships are a lot of work. Even your relationship with your besties today, it is as bestie relationship. There were rocky parts, getting to know each other, what this one likes, what they don't like. You know all of those things and I feel the same thing plays out in marriage when, when two people come together, um, you want to go to the next question.
Speaker 1:But before we do that, I think we need to have a conversation on decolonization at some point, because yes, we do we'll be more than happy to bring you back, because we cannot talk about the issues of gender equality or inequality or equity without addressing the colonial roots of it. So we are going to Nnedi and I will drop minds on that, but I do think that we need to have a whole episode dedicated to decolonization and colonization and gender stereotypes and then moving also towards decolonization. So the next question I have is um, you know, when you're scrolling on the internet, sometimes, or even on your whether on x space, on instagram, facebook something comes up about marriage and then you start to see a lot of comments that make your your blood boil.
Speaker 1:But you know that you don't have the energy to respond to all of these people because it's not worth it, but you're still desperate to want to educate someone. A common statement we have seen in today's narratives of marriage, and still feeding off the need to keep women controlled and subjected, is the saying that your wife is not your family member, that your wife, your wife, is not your family, she's not a member of your family. And people have gone on to justify, to say, ah, your wife can always leave you, but your mother will always be there. No truth he can say you know high and low, but you see your wife, she can always leave. That's why she's not. She's not a member of a family. And me, when I see that question, I I ask in my head and I say but your mother is your family member, right?
Speaker 3:have you forgotten?
Speaker 1:that your mother is your father's wife, or are we missing something here, like you know, because people who make that statement, like your, if you're saying your wife is not your family, but your mother is your family because she's your father's wife, so it's something we'd like for you to speak to. It's such a damaging narrative that bothers us so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in response to this question. You know I'm just going to like make a few points on this question. I would say, if you're planning to do maybe an episode on decolonization, also do an episode on trauma, right, because in nigeria there's just a lot of untreated trauma and that's culture exactly, and that plays out as culture, but also our social media comments.
Speaker 3:What you see, you know, people do on in the social media space is performing their trauma, you know, reacting based on their trauma, you know. So we should never forget that part. We should never forget that part. There are social factors in nigeria that makes us consistently traumatized, you know. There's the economic struggle. There is the violence we all internalize in the name of culture, also, right, in the name of culture. Recently we've seen a lot of very disgusting clips on social media of people being violent, you know, to other people. And then you read the comments, you find people even justify violence. You know, when you see that, you just know that people are performing their trauma. People are, you know, being influenced by their trauma. Father george eusani was a priest who works in abuja, who is definitely very popular. You know most people many people know him one day.
Speaker 3:He said to me you know, he has this lox terra foundation and and he started his psycho spiritual institute and part of what he does with the leadership foundation and the institute is to like, approach organizations and then, you know, do a trauma training for the leaders so that they can help the other people in the organization. And what he told me recently, like many times when he goes to, you know, educate leaders on trauma at the end of the day, he finds out that the leaders are themselves traumatized. So he was the first person to really bring my attention to the fact that nigeria is a large population of traumatized people. People and that explains many of our behavior online the fact that people make very ridiculous assertion and they are ready to stand by it. It's their trauma playing out.
Speaker 3:You know, so you already. You know, hit the nail on the head. You cannot say your wife is not your family. It does not make any sense. You know. So you already. You know, hit the nail on the head. You cannot say your wife is not your family. It does not make any sense. You know, is your mom part of your dad's family? You know, and so on. So we need a lot of healing in Nigeria. We need a lot of reimagining. We need a lot of fundamental discussions in Nigeria. We need to face our demons. We need to face our demons. We need to face our demons squarely. We need to agree that we have a lot of problems and it's not just we're just able to maybe bad government, or bad leadership, or corruption.
Speaker 3:Ourselves, ourselves, yeah, ourselves. You know the very recent book I have been reading. You know, I should have read it a long time ago. I'm grateful to God that I'm able to finally read it. It's Paulo Freire's. Yes, paulo Freire.
Speaker 1:The Divergent of your Fears. Yes, that's one of my favorite books.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, you know so that book should be taught in every university, right, like that book should shape our curriculum. We need to address many fundamental problems. It does not make any sense. And then the final point I want to make on this question. You know what you encounter on social media. When I realized this, it gave me a lot of peace.
Speaker 3:One thing I have come to know about Nigerians is that we are very good at throwing words. So most of the things we say we do not mean. You know, I schooled in the US.
Speaker 3:I returned to Nigeria for a very short break once and I ran into three different people who had three different opinions about my way. So the first person I met was like Father William, you don't defy too. And I was like, really, you know, well, I don't care, but yeah, that got me a bit. The second person I ran into said but we know, they chop you, they suffer, you know. And then the third person was like you know?
Speaker 3:So what each of those persons was saying, or, you know, trying to do, was just to throw words. You know, start a conversation. They did not mean anything. They were just like throwing words. Because when I eventually proved, I'm like okay, what do you mean by I don't the facts. What was my weight the last time you saw me? And my weight now? He had no, no idea. So it's just throwing words. So what you see on the social media space can also be explained in this way People just throw words, people just make a comment, sometimes because they want engagement, they want to grow their page. You know they feel traumatized and lonely. They want to be recognized, chasing clouds. You know so many of these things are responsible for comments you find online. So I don't take comments online seriously, even though they help me understand how most Nigerians are thinking about a particular issue. Even in the word strong, you find bits and pieces of the way the mind works. You find evidence of a colonized mind, a poor mind, you know.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, father Obi. So, for the benefit of our listeners, if you are wondering what the book he was talking about, it's the Pedagogy of the Oppressed, something like pedagogy, pedagogy, pedagogy. It's the Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire. It's a really good book if you can lay your hands on it. That book is very good at helping critical thinking. It forces you to question things and to also see. You know, it's like when Naila Kabir talks about adaptive preference, when the oppressors themselves internalize oppression and also all become, when the oppressed I mean internalize oppression and now become oppressors themselves, like, and how you also make excuses for a lot of, a lot of yes without no. It's a really good book. It's, it's a powerful book if you can, if you can lay your hands on it. I don't know if it's on, I think you can find it on amazon or anywhere you get books. It's an old book the pedagogy of the oppressed. Yeah, old book so, but a really good book yes, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:There's like thank you so much for the williams. Like I feel like this episode should go and I feel like we should have another episode on.
Speaker 2:I know we'll continue with this topic next week, I feel like we should just, oh my gosh. Okay, guys, as much as you know, we really want to sit here all day, we don't. At the same time, we don't want to run the risk of making the episode too, too, too long and, you know, making our listeners, our listeners, feel, you know, overburdened with a lot of information. So we'll try to wrap it up, but, at the same time, we are happy to go this in depth because we believe that, you know, minds are being changed, people are beginning to wake up. You know, we're waking up people's subconscious to begin to question these ridiculous customs, these ridiculous norms, these belief systems that just don't make sense.
Speaker 2:So, if we want to be honest, a lot of us are living under oppression. A lot of us should not have grown up the way we grew up if we had known better, if our parents had known better. So, having said that, I'll quickly delve into our second to last question and as we begin to wrap it up. So, father William, it's about childbearing. Yes, why is there so much pressure and or shaming of women and then the couple as a unit?
Speaker 2:you know about conception people getting so even the people who made a decision, even couples who made a decision that, hey, we are just going to enjoy our union, we're just going to take the first few years, the first couple of years, the first one year, you know, the first six months, to just be by ourselves, get to know ourselves. And then, after one month, people are like, uh, what's going on, guys? Why are you not doing anything? Why is there so much pressure? Why do people get shamed for either trying to conceive or making the decision not even to conceive? You know why. Why do? Why do people get blackmailed?
Speaker 3:about? I honestly don't know, right, like it's a question that I've always had. I've never been able to, you know, find an answer for. You know I. Another thing that amazes me this is is very related to the question, you know, is the crazy desperation, right, not by the couple themselves.
Speaker 3:I understand when a couple, you know, are desperate to have children. You know it's what they want and so they are really looking for it. I understand that and I would always sympathize and pray for them, you know, and so on and so forth. But I've not been able to understand why external people, sometimes people are not even part of their extended families, who are not even part of their families, right, like the previous families they were like part of before they started their new family. Yes, you know, when they start intruding and start throwing words at them, start saying you suppose, don Bono, it beats my imagination. The closest explanation I have for it, in light of what we've been talking about in this episode, is maybe trauma. You know, I'm also thinking of right, I'm also thinking of the harmful barrier customs in most places in the southern part of Nigeria.
Speaker 3:You know, a woman loses the husband and women will supervise her humiliation. You know, when you go close enough, you realize some of those women also endured humiliation when they lost their husband. So they are simply, you know, performing what they have internalized. They are performing the trauma you know they just want to like. So I don't know. So to your question, I really don't know. It's a shame, it's very unfortunate, but I don't have an answer to that. Unfortunate, but I don't have an answer to that.
Speaker 3:But to look at it from a Christian perspective, I would always say that most Nigerian Christians are very syncretic, meaning we claim to be Christians, we wear the badge, we wear aprons, we wear scapulas and so on and so forth, but we are neck deep in our traditional practices that we don't even probe. In our so-called traditional practices we don't even probe, you know. So when people are desperate for a male child, I always ask why are you desperate for a male child, specifically as a Christian? You forget that? Hebrews, chapter 9, verse 27,. It is appointed unto human beings to die once, and after that comes judgment, and after judgment comes heaven and hell. You know, is that not what we say as Christians?
Speaker 3:So whether you have 3 million children or no child at all, it does not make any difference. Once you leave this side of existence, you know, if you're a Christian, it does not make any sense. So, while we are still alive, yes, we may be fascinated by our children. When they are young, they are beautiful. When they are old and successful, they make us proud. But the moment you breathe your last and close your eyes in debt, it no longer matters. From a Christian perspective, even from an Islamic perspective.
Speaker 3:So I don't understand why a country where 95% are either Christians or Muslims have made birthing children, birthing these particular children, something that completely shatters harmony. You know, if we run on a very Christian or Muslim worldview, it will not be difficult to just go to the orphanage and, you know, adopt a child, tend the child he grows up the same kind of satisfaction. But we have this traditional notion of who is going to keep my name, who's going to pour oblation. You know, to my memory, it's no longer relevant, precisely because we no longer have that worldview. We have the Christian worldview, you know. So how we're able to, like, live our lives with two contending worldviews. Claim to be Christians, you know, go to church every Sunday, pray all the time, call upon the name of Jesus, or go to the mosque and, you know, believe in the teaching of Allah through the Prophet Muhammad, but when it comes to these, you know, basic questions of life, we fall back on a worldview that no longer exists. I just want to share an experience I had which really broke my heart.
Speaker 3:So one day after I preached on a Sunday mass, a woman met me and said she wanted to talk with me the next day. So I set the time and she came. She spoke to me for two hours. I did not interrupt. She was talking about what she has suffered. She's been looking for a child since God knows when. She's gone all over the place. She's met all kinds of prophets, gone to every mountain in Abuja still no child.
Speaker 3:And then the husband went to the orphanage and adopted a child and brought the child home and this woman said God forbid, god forbid it be a child that comes from my body, from my womb. If not, I'm not taking it. She forced the man to take the child back. She's almost 50, maybe 51. She's still believing God for a child and praying. I'm not mocking her faith or mocking her quest, but what I immediately saw was a woman who claims to be a Christian but who did not even have the Christian worldview you know. So I kept saying to her, exodus, chapter 14, from verse 13 to 14. You need to calm down, you need to hold your peace. You've prayed, you've fasted, you've visited every place. Why not calm down so that the spirit of the Lord can speak to you? What if God has refused to give you a child because he wants you to bring up this child from the orphanage? Right? It doesn't make any sense, I know to many Christians, because we are still addicted to the past that no longer exists.
Speaker 3:So we say, oh, if it's not from my womb, it's not going to have any implication when I become an ancestor. No, you're not going to become an ancestor. It's appointed unto man and woman to die once, and after that comes judgment right. So once you are dead, you are no longer connected to blood ties in this world. You know, from a Christian perspective, but also from an Islamic perspective. So many of these questions are difficult to answer because it's almost impossible to decipher how the Nigerian mind works. You know, the minds of Nigerians and most Africans work, yeah, so that's powerful.
Speaker 2:that's powerful, I believe. In answering this question, you've also given an advice to people like it doesn't really matter, and whether you bear a child from your womb, from your loins, or you love a child that came from somewhere else, and that people should stop being insensitive and realize that, at the end of the day, it's your own life that matters, the account you give of your life that matters. Thank you, thank you very much, father William Kemi. You were saying something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think part of the issue is because we men have been so put in two boxes by humanity, and that is to strive to be married and to strive to have children, so to the point that if you're not married or you're married and you don't have kids, society makes it look as though you are incomplete, like you're not fit to be here. I think, again, it still has its roots in cultural norms. Some would say even the Bible says go into the world and multiply. So if you're not having children, then that means you're doing something wrong. And my thinking is now there are those who say they don't want to have kids.
Speaker 1:I think if you're very self-aware enough to know that you cannot take on the responsibilities of having children, that's good for you, because we have a lot of kids, like we say, that have been abandoned in homes, left by the wayside, just because they were had by people who could not take care of them or who were not ready for them. I'd rather we have a world that is more welcoming to people who are self-aware enough to say you know what I'm not, I don't think I have it in me to raise any child, so I'll just pass on that one and not shame and judge them than to have a world that, oh, you must give birth because God says that is how we should be, even when someone is saying I don't think I have the capacity to right.
Speaker 1:So I feel the shaming and it boggles my mind too, father, it does. But I feel the shaming has its roots in what society's expectations of women are.
Speaker 2:So right from.
Speaker 1:When a girl is born, the first things you start to hear is oh, is this how you're going to be when you're in your husband's house, when you have children? You know you raise children is this how you're going to raise your kids? So I, from that very little age, you're already being conditioned that those are the two expectations that you must fulfill, and it's the reason why, even when we see cases where women like this lady now, they run helter skelter looking for a child, and it's because society is not forgiving to women who are trying to conceive. Yes, and the sad part of it is, there are also men in these relationships, but women tend to take the biggest chunk most times, right? And you also have a situation whereby people always just assume that if a couple is yet to have a child, then it's automatically the woman.
Speaker 1:That is the problem, but we forget that men also have sexual reproductive health issues. It's not a gender specific thing, right? Even if, even if you read, science too will tell you you that as you grow older, both men and women, your ability to conceive gets diminished. It's not just on women alone, it's on men. So I feel that it's this, going back to what Fada Obi talked about questioning, because, ideally, a couple that is yet to conceive that is the time that they need support.
Speaker 1:That is the time they need love. That is the time they need prayers. That is the time they need love. That is the time they need prayers. That is the time somebody should be reaching out to say you know what, if there's anything, you can talk to me, but not to shame them, not to, ah, you're never born, or any small thing. They see they say, ah, by this time next year. You know it's a good prayer, but it also adds to the pressure. Or what are you waiting for?
Speaker 2:Exactly what are you waiting for, Seriously, sometimes it's on your side, exactly, you know.
Speaker 1:It made me remember something I was reading one time. I know one of these pages where people write in to ask for advice and someone was talking about how they had just gotten married and the mother-in-law was having a conversation with her one day it's all those side side underhanded comments and the mother-in-law started saying, oh, you know, basically saying I'm praying for you, that God is going to do it for you the way he did it for your mother, the way he did it for me. You will not be a barren woman. And she was writing to say that. That bothered her so much because, one, it is too early to assume barrenness in the relationship. Number two, if you're praying only specifically for me and not for us, then you impliedly you're implying that if we're not able to have children or we're yet to have children is because I'm the problem.
Speaker 1:And she was, you know, worried about that. And she was writing to just get idea, like wouldn't it have been better if you know? The mother-in-law had said you know what, worried about that. And she was writing to Jessica the idea, like wouldn't it have been better if you know? The mother-in-law had said, you know what, I'm praying for you and your husband that God will do it for you people the way he did it for us. You know he will bless you people at his own time. And a number of people who responded actually alluded to that. Yes, the other way would have been the best, because what the mother-in-law was doing, even if her intention may have been good, but what she was doing is she was feeding into the narrative and just the stereotype on women and putting that pressure, that shame on the daughter-in-law to say ah, you know me, I'm praying specifically for you. So you know that was mama is saying that me. I know my son is gallant.
Speaker 1:There's no problem you know, it's you that may be the issue. I think that's something that when I read it, it broke my heart, because we see things like this, even you know, around us and like whether your circle of friends, you know those that sometimes it took them a while to have children, and you know the mental turmoil and just stress that women especially put on themselves. And that's because of society's expectation, to the point that even when it's the man that is the problem, women never come out to say, oh, the man is the problem.
Speaker 1:They take this, because that's society and I feel we should be kinder to people.
Speaker 3:You know and women should. Nigerian women, african women should learn to speak out. You should stop playing into the patriarchy. You know Another book I would recommend, you know, for young women. You know girls in Nigeria, in Africa, is Abidare the girl with the loudest voice.
Speaker 1:I love your recommendation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:If women begin to speak out, many of these problems would gradually disappear. If women, you know, stop taking the brunt of childlessness, especially when they find out that it's the man who is at fault. You know, even this talk of this DNA stuff that has become A very common conversation in Nigeria. I know there is paternity fraud, right, yes, but sometimes this is by women who are trying to cover up for their husbands and because they never get to say their own story. You know, tell their own stories. The narrative we have right now is just one-sided. You know, women are doing paternity fraud. What about women who had to do that for the sake of their husbands? And then, many years down the line, the man is publicly shaming them.
Speaker 3:I have cases of this. I also have the case of a young lady who came to the confessional so many years ago and then I could see bruises on her face. So when she had finished confessing her sins so we had, we had dealt with, you know, the same oh, the lord is going to forgive you. And then and so on, I asked her what is wrong with you, what happened to your face? And she was trying to cover up for the dad. You know the way she she explained it I could.
Speaker 3:The undertone was not just physical violence, there's also sexual violence. So I merely knew that I needed to, like you know, act. So I asked her to see me after the confession with her mom. The first thing I did was to threaten the mom, because Nigerians sometimes don't understand anything that does not sound like threats. So I made a call to Naptip in her presence and told her if I ever see a new mark, a single mark on this girl's body again face, I would arrest you and the husband. Then I said something like this is a young lady. This man is physically abusing her. Nobody's saying anything, the families are not saying anything. When he finally mutilates her, you know, permanently damages part of her body, then the family will not gather together and be forcing her to forgive him and tell him, you know he's your father now you want him to be in prison.
Speaker 3:You know this BS. You need to nip it at the bud. You need to speak out, because the moment you speak out, half of the problem is solved. The moment you speak out against the lecturer who is trying to violate you, who is trying, you know, making advances at you, half of your problem is solved. So we need girls and women in Nigeria with a loud voice, as Abidare would say. We need girls and women who would speak out. There is so much madness. Many men in Lagos like another novel I read are mad All the men in Lagos, all the men in Lagos are mad.
Speaker 3:If not all, most of the men in Lagos in Nigeria are mad Women need to speak out against us, otherwise we keep causing damage all over the place, right? So my maybe final words I don't know if this is the final word is women in nigeria, you need to speak up. You need to speak up for yourselves and speak up for each other you know, until we get to, until we get to a higher social consciousness, maybe the louding voice is still salvation, you know, still our best chance of salvation right now.
Speaker 1:So okay, so we'll just go quickly to the last question of the day before Nelly comes in with the fun part. But this has just been very enlightening and it's been such a pleasure having this conversation with you because we also have people who reach out to us and share you know they share about their issues. Most of those questions we're asking are either things we've seen online or even just conversations that people have brought to us or you know, people have reached out to talk about and we just feel like it would be good to use this platform to try to educate people, to try. The goal is to make us better, kinder, nicer people, you know, to others. So the last question on this is seeing all these challenges and just hearing everything that we've even talked about, we believe that premarital classes should also include sessions for immediate family members. What is your take on this, beyond just the couples? The couple's good, but the family I would.
Speaker 3:I would say it's kind of complicated. Sometimes it's difficult to even get the two people preparing for marriage, you know, to attend those classes and then you want to like, extend it to every other person. I think it's complicated and it's maybe not even necessary. You know, what we all need as a society is just maybe decolonization. We've been talking about that, you know. We just need to become more aware. We need to change our way of thinking. You know. We need to know that you really don't have any business in this couple's life, right, Like? You need to just let them be. They don't have children yet. Let them be. They have 20 children in the space of one year. Let them be. You know it's not your business because it's their privacy. You are including, you know. Yeah. So I think the entire society needs to learn and relearn a lot of things. We need to change our way of thinking, change our approach to things, and so on and so forth. The body of a successful, for successful marriage lies on the shoulders of the two people who are getting married. They need to be sure they know what they are getting into. You, you know, and they are the ones who should draw the line. If you know the other members of their respective families are not respecting their boundaries, they're the ones who should draw the line. If a man should say to his family I don't want you intruding, you know, there's a very good chance that the family will give them that space.
Speaker 3:There's something funny I used to say. It sounds very radical, but I'm going to share it here. You know, and that's the way I think about things, you know, and it sounds radical because of where we're at as a society. I used to say, okay, I'm a Catholic priest, so I'm not planning to get married. But I used to say, if I were to get married, and then I bring this girl from a different part of the country to my family and say to them oh, look at the girl I want to marry. I love her so much, she loves me so much, We've already made some plans and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3:And then my parents say maybe their first reaction is you cannot marry from this place, you cannot marry her because it's from this place.
Speaker 3:So I said, you know, my first response, my you know, very first response, would be both of you are not invited to this marriage in the first place. It sounds radical, but what I try to the point I want to make with just saying this is the fact that marriage is the union of two individuals and every other person is involved to the extent these two individuals allow them. Every other person is a guest at a wedding, apart from the man and the woman who are married. Mother-in-laws, father-in-laws may wear special clothes, but they are both guests at the weddings. It is the man and the woman who marry each other, and it is the man and the woman who invite people to be part of their joy. So, yeah, so I don't think it's necessary to have family members attend the marriage class, because it may even end up perpetuating the idea that marriage is a union of families rather than a union of the two people who are married, you know, but there is need for a socialization, a maybe a re-socialization of african societies.
Speaker 3:One of my recent projects I've not it's not not running yet, but it's something I'm planning to do is to start different kinds of book clubs. You know, try to get people together to read books by african authors or read books by the colonial authors, so that, in different contexts, people may be able to address the reality of their being oppressed, you know, and face the oppression head on.
Speaker 1:I just love Ngugi Wationgo's books. I love his books.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. But interestingly I recently found that you know his son, who is also an author. A novelist called him out. You know that the great Ngugi Wa was very violent to his wife. You know that broke my heart because Ngugi Wationgo is one of my heroes, so that definitely broke my heart. You know I still use his books, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Nnedi has a book called Dance in the Rain and it's about gender and women's health.
Speaker 3:Is it on Amazon? Yes, it is. I'm buying it immediately. Thank you, yay. Thank you, thomas. Yeah, so yeah. Thank you, nnedi.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, so yeah, thank you oh my, how to draw the cotton on this very enlightening, very explosive, very educative episode. So I would love to thank you, father William, thank you for the time, thank you for you know, just literally pouring out yourself your wealth of knowledge to us today. We won't want to let you go without giving you this beautiful surprise.
Speaker 1:So, father, this might be an easy one for him, because he's also a poet.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, but it's okay, let's see what he says. Exactly, exactly, but it's okay, let's see what he said. Okay, so, father, if your life was a book or a movie? Or even a poem or some sort of poetry. What would the title be and why? Okay?
Speaker 3:It will be Gentleman, wow, wow. So I write poetry. I wouldn't say they are poems, right, like they may not be good enough to be called poems, but I definitely write things that look like poems, and one one of my poems is titled the man who dreads intensity. You know it's a gentleman with something like that.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I don't mean, I'm gentle, I'm definitely not gentle, I'm not the gentleman at all as Fela would say yeah, because I am too outspoken with some of these very radical ideas to be classed as a gentleman, at least in the Nigerian parlance. But I, but I believe in the principle of giving people space. You know, allowing people breathe, giving people space, being compassionate enough to understand that everyone is struggling. You know, like I wouldn't pick up the phone and say something like you don't even call me. You don't even call me because I don't even know what you are facing right like. So you know, I always want to put compassion first. If you are not able to do good, at least don't do harm. You know, it's like one of one of the principle yeah, if you're not even able to help people, at least don't hurt them. You know, give them enough space so that they would have a chance of helping themselves, a better chance of helping themselves. So when I say gentleman, I'm not trying to say I I'm guy, good guy, tough touch. No, no, not at all. It's just some of these ideas I keep trying to practice.
Speaker 3:And then my favorite spirituality you know there's religion, but then there is also spirituality which intersects with religion in significant way. My favorite spirituality is called the spirituality of detachment being detached enough in order to truly enjoy things you know. Otherwise you become imprisoned by things you know like. Like jesus would say, unless a wheat grain falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single grain, but if it dies, if it dares to die, it eats a rich harvest. Unless we we're able to die to things, we will not be able to enjoy them. We'd rather be imprisoned by them, colonized by them, tortured by them, limited by them or made miserable by them. So my one advice to everyone all the time is be detached.
Speaker 2:I feel like he deserves a standing ovation. Oh my god, what a way ovation. Oh my God, what a way to end this episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you can't do good, at least don't do bad. Or if you can't help people, at least don't hurt them.
Speaker 2:It's very powerful. Yes, be willing to die. Die to harmful stereotypes, be willing to be detached from these things, die to harmful norms, belief systems that no longer serve us. Question things around you. You see, you're a guy in the family and you see that you get a special treatment from your sisters. Ask why challenge these norms before it gets to marriage? Because a lot of these things you might inwardly hate them, but you find that when you get into marriage you are repeating the same cycle, not because you want to, but it's been ingrained in you. That's what you know, that's what you were taught, that's what you saw.
Speaker 2:So we should start asking questions about these things. We should follow through them with actions. You know, we don't realize how powerful questions are. We don't even realize how powerful questions are. If the men began to ask questions in their circles, I believe we would have shifted a lot of the things that are harming our societies. Then women, too, we should start asking questions. We should. We should stop protecting, stop covering a lot of these practices that we see, you know, as mothers, as wives, as sisters, as daughters. You know in our circle. Start asking questions in the family, you know. Start not to be antagonistic, not to challenge everyone, not because I want, I just want to be difficult. But let people around you, let your family members, see that the things were holding, a lot of the things were holding so tightly onto are harming us, harming our children, harming our societies, harming our relationships, you know so. Thank you so much, father obby. Thank you, that's my take, kemi thank you so much.
Speaker 1:A lot, a lot has been said. I don't think I need to add anything else. We're just grateful to father obby for coming on to share from his world of experience, and I like that he brought in also scriptural references and tried to clarify them, because oftentimes people make justifications using the scripture for a lot of the challenges we see, even in marriages today. So thank you so much, father, for pouring out your heart, and I believe is that and our hope, really our hope, I would say, is that our listeners walk away with something very tangible from this and that maybe through this episode, some marriages can start to heal. You know, people can start to unlearn things that may have been standing in their way, to enjoy the fullness and the richness of what marriage was designed to bring in the lives of those involved and, of course, by extension, to those around them. So thank you very much and we are looking forward to the next time when we get to invite you back to discuss the issue of colonization.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:We're looking forward to that, but yeah, it's been, I would say, back to back. We've had really powerful, heavy but uplifting episodes at the same time.
Speaker 3:So thank you very much thank you so much for inviting me. Yeah, thank you so much, thank you thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, kevin yes, and guys, just like that, we've come to the end of this explosive episode. Yeah, I know I've used that word a lot, but deal with it Because it was very explosive.
Speaker 2:Next week we will be joined by Very special guests or guests, to dissect hot topics on the street. That will be our first hot topic session For this season. As always, everything. Hope that everything we Discourse, everything for this season, as always, everything. Hope that everything we discuss, everything the views we share, are helping to dismantle harmful gender stereotypes and dismantle strongholds surrounding gender stereotypes, and we hope that we're helping to repair our society with one conversation at a time.
Speaker 2:Now, if you have a question or you want to share your experiences with negative gender stereotypes, or you have a suggestion on how we can improve, or just anything that will help these discussions, you know, to transcend the number of listeners we have now, or to transcend spaces, or just however you think we can improve and we can help, please click on the link that will drop below and drop us a message, or you can write us at genderishp at gmailcom, or you can follow us on all our socials. On atx, you can follow us at genderishp on it's at Genderish P as well. So feel free to you know, drop us a comment like, subscribe, share our episodes, share the topics, ask your questions. Just, we are at your disposal and we'd love, love, love, love to hear from you all. Remember, just an equitable world is possible if we all play our part without discrimination or bias. On that note, thank you.