Guest Appearance: Josh Courage

Josh Courage is a Fitness Business owner and VeeFriends OG collector. He has spoken at Veecon, posts educational fitness content on social media and sells items on whatnot. 

Connect with me!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/js_shoez_/
X: https://twitter.com/Shoeinvestor2
TikTok: tiktok.com/@thewater_boy_official
Youtube: https://youtube.com/@justinshoemaker9582?si=DSsbCeNl1kgH3EKK
LinkedIn: Justin Shoemaker

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Josh Courage & vFriends Origin
• 4:20 From Gyms To Coaching After COVID
• 8:30 Launching The Courage Show And Early Streams
• 14:10 VCon, Confidence, And “Just Do” Mindset
• 20:55 Outcome Vs Input: Building Brands That Last
• 28:40 Staying Authentic In The Social Media Grind
• 36:15 Passion, Skills, And Choosing Hard Things
• 44:30 Money, Hedonic Adaptation, And Purpose
• 53:10 Teaching Young People: Skills, Sales, And Hobbies
• 1:03:00 Trial, Error, And Monetizing Hobbies
• 1:12:20 Investment Strategies For vFriends Cards
• 1:22:00 Can vFriends Become Mainstream IP?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Alright, we are live. So, guys, uh, if you're tuning in, I am super, super excited. This is uh been a podcast that has been in the works for god months now. Um, it's my uh my brother from another mother, which is uh the ethos, I think, of how vFriends works. And uh, I'm super excited to have uh Josh Courage on. Uh Josh Courage is a business owner, he is a huge part of the vFriends community, which if you guys don't know about vFriends, it is a community uh or an IP ran by Gary V. And uh Josh was actually when I I did a podcast episode about the opportunity in vFriends right when Chrome dropped. And uh Josh was actually the first channel I went in on, and he was the one that kind of got me introduced to vFriends and got me kind of hooked on it, and in his streams was really good at explaining what was going on and helped me get a lot of conviction to where I am now super bought in. So, Josh, welcome. Um, super happy to have you uh on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 0:58

I love hearing this. I appreciate being here. I'm um I apologize for this taking so long to happen, but it happened, it's gonna happen no matter what. So we're here and I like it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07

Yeah, yeah. So, Josh, um obviously, you know, Harmony of Hustle is built, you know, to really document business owners like grind and journey and how kind of we operate and the different avenues of business that we do. So I know you run your own business, and obviously you're uh we can see in the background all the bites and stuff uh in in the vFriend stuff in the background. Can you just kind of give everybody like a background on like what you do and then you know how you even got into vFriends? And then let's just kind of like start hashing out and talking talking v Friend stuff, dude.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38

Yeah, for sure. I mean, well, well, well the VFriend stuff, the the courage show, which is the sort of the v Friend show that I host and and the platform that I utilize within the V Friends community is actually my secondary business. I've I've run a personal training business. I've actually owned two gyms. I I owned a gym in Washington, DC. I sold it, I owned a gym in California. I was in the process of actually selling that, still managing it, but but selling ownership of it. And then COVID hit, and I actually ended up selling out all the equipment and everything like that, retaining all the members, which actually was a better option than selling it. Um and I still do personal training, that's my full-time job. I'm still 20 plus hours a week, usually uh doing coaching, mostly online. Um I actually just came back from the gym and I'm actually gonna start coaching and running seminars at the gym I was just at.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Oh nice.

SPEAKER_02: 2:20

And uh, and then the vFriend stuff for the live streaming show was something I sort of like happened into. And this is actually a kind of a cool story. I I touch on sort of how I got into vFriends quite off quite often my show, which I'll talk about here. But one aspect of it that I don't talk about a lot that I just realized is this this mindset. This mindset, I remember going to the very first vcon. This is like so V right, V Friends, and all some some people who watch the show probably don't know vFriends or know of it, but and some know a lot about it. But right when the VFENS NFT dropped, the big thing was that there was gonna be three years of this big conference, and it was it was less of like a vFriends conference, more of like uh like an entrepreneur type conference, lots of speakers and business people and stuff like that. That was networking, kind of big on the web 3 NFT side of things, crypto side of things. And I remember going to the very first one. I'm not not a big like huge public tons and tons of people type of guy. I'm always sort of off on the outskirts and very introverted. I remember sort of watching people speak, and I've spoken before. I really like actually being on stage and talking and saying, I how do people get into how do like influencers become influencers? How do people like start something and like gain a platform? Like it's I don't understand, I don't understand that step-by-step process of sort of becoming a thing. And and I in my brain I was like, I want to speak at VCon, like that would be so like I like I've spoken at college, I've spoken at high schools, I've spoken for business, but I want to speak at VCon, that'd be so cool. How the freaking hell do I do that? And after VCon, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna sort of get into doing some V Friend stuff. It's kind of fun. And I I would just sort of interact with people, and back in the day that was Jeremy Nose, who now works for Vfriend. I remember interacting with him a lot back in the day. Then, like a few months later, they dropped their cards.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

Oh, the first the series one cards?

SPEAKER_02: 4:09

The series no oh I guess it was like right after that was a series c maybe no, it was actually before that the series one cards hit. It was a few months. I think it was May was VCON 1, and I think July the Series 2 cards dropped.

SPEAKER_00: 4:21

Nice. That's when I first found out about it.

SPEAKER_02: 4:23

Okay. That's like now they're called TCG cards because it's a TV card game. Yeah, I was like, oh, I know I can do cards, like I know cards. I was able, I was lucky enough to get into the like the VF2 NFTs, and I got it, I got like six boxes of those, and I started like making videos and posting them on Twitter about like how to package your cards, how to ship your cards, how to protect your cards, all this other stuff, because there were tons of people in the VFriends community who knew nothing about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 4:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 4:47

And I, you know, I was a collector when I was a kid, not nothing crazy. I I never sold anything. Um, so I was just like, yeah, this is kind of fun. And then I was like, you know what? I want to like I want to do mystery packs. I was I really liked watching this guy jab jabs, jab his family breaks or something like that on YouTube. And he would do breaks and he would do he would sell mystery packs, he would get mystery packs. This is really fun. I would just watch him while I was doing work, yeah. And uh, I was like, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do some mystery packs. And I was talking to my buddy who was in Vfriend stuff, who I'm actually texting right before I started the show. And uh he was like, dude, I don't know, mystery packs, that might not work. So I was like, I'm gonna do it. I made 25 mystery packs and sold them out in like three days. Because there's nobody else, there was nobody else like selling stuff besides like private, you know, private little deals here and there and eBay with the with the cards. This is by this is like this is like September, you know, a couple months into these cards. Oh wow. I was like, this is really fun. I want to like, I want to like do a I want to do like a break show. And I forget exactly what the date was, but it must have been maybe like five, six months after the cards were introduced. I was like, I did my first live stream. I did it on an iPad on Twitch. I have no clue.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

Oh wow. So this was so this is before Whatnot was even a thing.

SPEAKER_02: 5:55

Oh yeah, I mean I mean I I didn't even know what not was a thing. I mean what not existed, but I didn't know what it was. And um, I didn't even like use an OBS thing, I was just like right directly to it, which which was like just a mess.

SPEAKER_01: 6:07

Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_02: 6:08

And but nobody else was doing this stuff, and then like a coup maybe like four or five time uh you know episodes in Tom or TJ of To the Moon Cards now, who's like the other sort of OG streamer guy, he started doing some stuff. It was just me and him. Oh wow, and it just sort of because nobody else was doing it, it just sort of organically happened. And I would I actually my show was the was the V Friends community night. That's what my show was. It wasn't about cards, it was basically it wasn't about selling cards, it was about being like, hey Justin, why don't you come on my show? We'll talk about you like a live podcast, and then let's open a box of cards and let's have some fun. And that's what it was. I probably did 50 episodes where some person in the V Friends community would come on, we'd rip the cards, we'd open them, maybe play a little game with them, just have some fun talking. I had I mean I had Andy Cranack on, I had Adam Rips on, I had a bunch of people with the V Friends community, just community members on, and then and then it just sort of kept organically growing. And then me and Tom sort of grew this little bit of a like a fake conflict with each other. I was like, you know, show and teachers collector corner and that sort of built, and that generated more excitement and energy around it. And then I remember I did a big stream at V at VCon 2, and then but it just kept and then the cards hit big after VCon 2, and it was like the cardboard summer, as Gary coined it, and it was like, oh, now the cards are kind of blowing up. And VCon 3, I was on stage talking at Vecon. And I remember I vividly remember sitting in like they had a little like a little tent set up. I was actually on stage twice. I spoke with uh IJ Rob, who's also part of the To the Moon crew, and this girl, Christine or Christina, who runs Mama Breaks, which is a big time breaker, right? The three of us share the stage, and then me, Tom, and Rip share the stage. So I was actually I was actually the only person besides Gary to be on the stage twice at V at VCon. Oh, nice. Um so I remember sitting there being like, oh, that's how you do it. Right. My original question is like, how do you do this? And I and I only looked back two years and I was like, that's how you do it. You just do, you just do. And if you're like into it and passionate about it and having fun with it, and just you know, not getting super, super ultra focused on it has to be this way, it's gonna be like, oh, hey, try this, oh hey, try that. Things just can grow, and if they don't grow, you're just like, yeah, let's try this. It's it wasn't while I was doing it, it wasn't about speaking at VCon.

SPEAKER_03: 8:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 8:27

While I was doing it, it was about just like how do I keep doing this and how do I evolve and grow? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just you know, oh, maybe I get this new computer, this new microphone, this new like just trying.

SPEAKER_00: 8:37

No, and that's and that's kind of that has like a big echo in just general business. I mean, you know, I've been posting a lot about it, how we made a bunch. I was very outcome-oriented when I started my company, and that was because I bef prior to this when I was a sales guy and I was helping grow other people's companies, that's kind of what you focus on. Like, all right, how many sales can I get? What's like the the the revenue we can generate? And we were able to blow the companies up um pretty quickly. And so when I did it for my company, that's what I was focused on. And I was like, I gotta hit a million the first year, then two, whatever the these arbitrary goals. And it's the same thing for like brand building. It's like, okay, I want to get X number of followers, I want to have this type of influence. But it's it's funny when like you try to be outcome-oriented, you almost get further away from the goal because you don't actually you almost try to shortcut things and do things that detract from what will actually get you to get you to where you where you want to go. And the moment I got input oriented and just looked at like, well, if I do I was like, I know if I advertise to this number of people, I will get three sales. Okay, so if I just triple the amount of people I can advertise to, I'll quadruple sales. Like that type of mindset really changed my business and like helped me like get to a smaller team. And I think for like what you did with like the brand building again on VCon, it's like okay, well, how can I just show up and provide value every single day to people and eventually things will kind of compound and cascade, and if it's good, it's good, if it's not, it's not. But if I just focus on what do I actually care about, then things will work out. And like for me, for example, I tried, you know, I tried different things on whatnot because I fell in love with it because as a sales guy, I was like, you know, back when when Chrome was really hot, I was like, whoa, I just made like two grand in an hour. And and I was chatting with people in the V Friends community who are probably the best community I've I've met, who are like just generally good people, so I was like, this is this is a lot of fun. And then I tried what you did, I was like, well, let me try a break. I see a lot of people doing breaks, and I hated it. I was like, okay, this freaking sucks. So I was like, all right, I like singles, I like running like ripping packs, and then I like running singles. Like, so found my niche and it kind of grew. And what was kind of a cool moment, I don't know if you remember this, but you know, during the hype when I was getting my collection going, I was like always in your show every night that you're on, and obviously some of the other guys' streams, and then obviously my shows were super low. Like, I think I was averaging maybe uh 10 views a show, but I you know you just stayed consistent, showed up, and then one day Gary rated, and then that kind of was like a um a stair stepper, like just out of nowhere. He went in there and I was like, oh, that's pretty crazy. And then I just kept showing up, showing up, and then eventually I got connected with AM Sports, who was like the big singles guy, and then he helped me kind of you know learn and he started supporting because he saw that I was hustling without really asking for help, and then you started supporting, and then one day, I mean, just out of nowhere, I think I had like a hundred people in, and then you showed up and were like, bro, what's going on here? And you know, that kind of community building just comes from time and effort and just being consistent with it. And you know, then that led to getting on the Ask Gary V show where he then connected me with some of his personal people and his circle. Um, and I think what's cool about the VFriends community, especially, is I think it's smaller than than most communities right now, but I think it's a great example that whatever goals people are trying to achieve the community they actually want to be a part of is smaller than they think. And winners actually recognize winners, and if you just do stuff consistently without losing enthusiasm when things get hard, and just keep showing up and keep working, eventually and that you may not be like the top success, but you'll probably get closer to that end goal than you will by just stopping and and trying to make these arbitrary outcomes happen. And you know, by you know, posting as much value as I can on social and doing the shows, I mean I now I was able to get a relationship with you and Jeremy and all the V friends guys and a little bit with Gary. So it really is just taking the you out of it as much as you can and say, okay, well, what can I do to benefit the community? And what do I do, what do I actually enjoy that also gives value. I think that's like the marriage with anything. Like, what do I actually enjoy doing, and then what can actually bring value? Because I think that's where we get a little messed up. You know, we see we see shows doing these mystery packs or breaking.

SPEAKER_02: 12:48

I gotta switch my hat to talk about that. We gotta switch the hat to that.

SPEAKER_00: 12:50

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_02: 12:51

Yeah. That dude, that's that's I'm I think that's probably the hardest thing in today, today's entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial landscape is the is the balance of trying to trying to go viral, trying to sort of hit that, hit that wave while also staying true to what you're passionate about, true to yourself and being a genuine, genuine, authentic person. And I see it like like right now, I've never sort of utilized social media. I'm in the I'm in the process of sort of sort of trying to use social media to build my fitness brand, living with courage. It was performance, now it's I expanded to living with courage. Using social media, and like it's it's a grind. And I realize like sort of looking into it more and more and more, like there's two ways to go about doing this. Number one is to sort of sell out. I always I use always use the the example of Liver King, right? The liver king crazy jacked out dude that was like just live by these nine ancestral talent uh tenants, you know, look just like me, I'm gonna spend fifteen thousand dollars on steroids every day, right? So, like and lie about the steroids, like yeah, yep, yep, and and he had right, and he had like he had a business plan of I want to get you know, whatever, three million followers by in 12 months. So he had this very specific goal, and he was gonna get there by any means necessary, right? Right? That's one way to do it, and you can do it, and that can be effective, or you'll end up being like him, and now he's like gone absolutely bananas. I don't even know what's happened, and then you see that time and time again with when it comes to like celebrity or music or whatever it is, people are like, I'm gonna get there any way possible, and I'm gonna I'm gonna sell my soul and it's gonna it's gonna f me up for the rest of my life. Or you just you're you just you're just good with what you're doing, yeah. Right? I so believe in the message I'm putting out there when it comes to health and fitness that like, yes, of course I want a bigger following. Yes, I want to get monetized on all these platforms, and that's what I'm that's my end goal with that aspect of my business.

SPEAKER_01: 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:41

But like, and is it and of course it's a little bit frustrating when I put forth a good amount of effort and there's not a ton of return. But in the end, of course, the big picture, the macro view is I don't care that much because I just want to put this freaking message out there and I'm never gonna compromise that. Yeah, I'm so freaking passionate about it. So you're right, like love what you're doing. And if you don't love what you're doing, like yeah, you still could luck out. Still couldn't, but like just just to me, that's the message I always want to put out there with my with my with my content, with my with my clients, with my show, is just be connected to what you're doing. And and you can actually see it in my with my relationship to like like putting out v Friend stuff. Like I I've moved a good amount away from V Friend stuff and do more and more health and fitness stuff because like you said, like breaking, like I'm not a salesperson at heart. Um I'm a I I'm a coach. I'm a coach at heart. And when I'm shifting towards, hey, I want you to buy this, I want you to jump into my brakes, I want you to buy my cars, I want you to, I I I'm not I don't feel good. I feel fine, but I don't feel freaking good. When I'm coaching, when I'm motivating, when I'm putting the message out there of like, hey, I want you to try to like just get out there and go for a walk, or hey, why don't you try one push-up today? Or hey, what let's do this little challenge here, jump in with this, dude. I feel fucking good.

SPEAKER_00: 15:57

I'm fire, right?

SPEAKER_02: 15:58

That's so that's so shit. That's that's where it's at.

SPEAKER_00: 16:01

And that's so keeked, because like that's where like we gotta optimize for like who you are. And it's it sucks because like what I found is there's this like uh influencer trap where like you'll someone will watch Gary or you'll watch like an Alex Hermosy or you watch um I mean that's the only people I watch, so who else? Uh uh a Joe Rogan or or uh or a Chris Williamson, right? And you see this content and you're or Mr. Beast and you're like, okay, I have to be like that and like the same things they like to get to where they're at. And that's just not true. Like you are the this is this is repeated all the time, but you are the niche and you just have to double down on what you like. Like I love selling. So for me, it's like how do I optimize having a good time selling and make it fun for the for the the viewers? Because that gets me fire, I I fucking love it. Like, that's why my my company has skyrocketed because I got rid of all my sales guys and created a whole new sales process where I'm the front end sales, you know what I mean? So it's like you know, that's and for you it's like coaching. It's like, well, then how do I do the same thing but coaching? And it's what's crazy is if you just put in an ungodly amount of effort into both, yeah, then you will get to where you want to go. And I do think what why people go crazy, like the liver king, or when people try to chase that fame, is the top of the mountain fallacy, right? You think when you get to the top of the mountain, then you're always gonna be at the top of the mountain, but everybody only cares about themselves. And the more I make content and I analyze my content, I realize the best content that I get returns on are not when I'm talking about things that I've done or whatever, it's when I actually provide some sort of practical advice to help people like move their own lives because everyone's just really only cares about themselves, right? And you you follow and like the the influencer you follow because at some level they actually give you something of value that you're able to implement in your life that either gives you money or gives you status or makes you feel good, but even those people will not be on the top of the mountain, like they'll have cycles. Like, I know for me, at one point in my life, Gary was like the guy I was watching all the time, and then I got all the value I needed from his content, and I stopped watching for like a couple of years, and then I started watching Hermosy, and it's like you know, and for our own audiences, like people are gonna cycle through your content for when like it they need it, and I think that's why people get depressed. Like the liver king, he had his rise, and of course it was all bullshit anyway. So obviously, if you build it off, you know, if you if you build the the house on in a uh on a box of cards where the the phrase is obviously it'll tumble, right?

SPEAKER_03: 18:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:26

But I think what happens is like he had his big, you know, he was he was like uh Mr. Beast calls it the purple elephant, right? So you make purple elephant content, you see a purple elephant, you'll stop to look at the purple elephant. Obviously, the longer you can beat a purple elephant, the more you'll probably grow. Liver King was obviously physically this just weird, crazy out there guy, and you know, his message was kind of cray out there, and people were like really gravit gravitating towards it, but then it be kind of became like a norm, and then things kind of leveled off. And I when and when that levels off, that's where people lose it. So it's like, what are you optimizing for? Do you want to make a ton of money quickly? Then great, do that. Or do you want to build like a long-term brand? And if you want to build a long-term brand, then eventually it'll probably like level out, unless you're making educ educational content or sorry, entertainment content, because entertainment content like Mr. Beast, that's always gonna be kind of new and and progressive. But if you're doing like coaching content or like niche stuff like sales and business or v Friends, you know, that's gonna that's going to plateau in my mind because you're not gonna be attracting everyone's interest.

SPEAKER_02: 19:31

Yeah, I made a I made a post the other day because I I couldn't think of a way to do it from a positive light, which was uh the image of the Joker from uh the Dark Knight return Dark Knight Returns, whichever one it was, uh you know, Heath Ledger's joker. Yeah, and uh where at the at the end he like slides down a big pile of money and he burns it and he says it's not about the money, it's about sending a message, right? Like to me, that would be yeah, like to me in the end, my end goal is sending a message. That's my end goal. I like if like if I make a billion dollars, freaking if I make a million dollars, freaking great. If I make$40, freaking great. Yeah, I I'm I want to send for me, right? Me, Josh Courage, I want to send a message. I have a message to speak for the rest of my life, and that's the number one aspect. And the second I forget that that's number one, I become inauthentic, I become disingenuous, right? I I'm I'm shifting, I'm shifting who I am and what I and what I want to put out there. And and I think that in the end, that's that's the what I think personally is the best way to put put stuff out there. Like when that's their content I consume, the second I see someone who's I I can just I can see through their fakeness and like ah they're not being genuine. I don't I I don't like this. They're not they don't believe in the message they're putting out there, right? They're putting it out there because they think that message is what people want to hear, but they deeply down inside don't actually believe it. That's to me, that's that's where I land with stuff. And yeah, it all boils back to one of my favorite characters in Viewfriends is self- self-awareness, is just knowing what you want, right? You say you're a sales, you feel good selling fucking great. Gary is a freaking sales guy, like through and through. Like you can see it when he talks. If he's like if when he's selling, when he's hyping and trying to sell stuff, he is uh at the of his of his aura, you know what I mean? Like yeah, and for me, when I'm like putting out health and when I'm sh like trying to get someone to get up and just go for a fucking walk, dude, something happens in me that just shifts into everything I want to be. Right. So like that's self-awareness and just knowing what that is. And I think I think I was just thinking this morning how I feel like given the nature of uh you know, j just of what we're focusing on as a society, like as Gary's book, The Day Trading Attention, we're focusing on attention. And when when you shift away from you know, focusing on who you are to focusing on purely attention, you start people start to slip away from self-awareness and they start to focus on getting attention at all costs. And we're seeing that more and more and more and more and more. And uh especially like in my world, the fitness industry, it's like just rife with just charlatans and fake people and by my supplement and fear-mongering and all sorts of stuff, and it just drives me crazy. So, like the best thing I can do is just be as as loud as possible with my message because it's about the fucking message. That's all I care about. So but that's the thing of self-awareness. I just think a lot of people lack self-awareness, they don't really truly know what they want, right? Like you talk about the fallacy of the whatever mountain, you know, like to my from my perspective, there is no top that the top doesn't exist. Like everybody's talking about well, I want to get to the top of the city.

SPEAKER_00: 22:35

Mean the mean mean girls, the the the limit, what is it? The limit does not exist.

unknown: 22:39

Yeah, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02: 22:40

It doesn't, because the second you get to where you thought you wanted to be six months ago, you see another peak you want to get to in six months, and that'll happen for eternity, right? So, like, as everyone always says, it's about the journey, it's about celebrating those little wins, like, hey, I got to speak at VCon. Yay! All right, what's next? You know, like, oh, I sold$10,000 worth on whatnot. Yay, okay, what's next? Oh, I just secured three new clients, yay, what's next? You know, like it that's what it's all about. There is no top, there is no peak. Like, that's just that that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

Yeah, and hedonic adoption is is is such a real thing. I uh I I and this is gonna sound like super privileged, but obviously I didn't ever come for money. But the the most money I ever made was when I got recruited or headhunted, I should say, to help build a solar startup. And at the peak, at my peak income, I was probably bringing back 50-60k a month. So I was on pace that year to probably bring back like half a mil. Um, it didn't work out because the company ended up just getting imploded. But I remembered at a certain point, I remember like the moment there was like two moments where I had like my first 30k month and I was able to pay off all my debt, and like that was like a huge like emotional shift. Like, wow, I feel super rich and wealthy. But then when I started making more than that, like it it didn't, and this sounds crazy to say, but it really didn't change my perspective. Um like my my well-being or my daily well-being did not change whatsoever, and I was like, naturally, I'm like a really optimistic, like positive guy anyway. So I didn't I felt like really happy that like when that started happening, I was like, okay, I feel good, but like when that happened to me and I realized, oh, this was like a record month, but like I didn't get any like emotional jolt from that. I was like, oh, that's what these people are talking about, or like you've heard Gary say he knows billionaires and millionaires who are like super unhappy, and that is such a wild thing to say until you actually learn the skills, which is why I love the skilled skeleton so much to make that type of money. And I remember when that was happening, I was like, oh shit, like I gotta and at that point it really dawned on me. Like, I really did not like the industry I was in. I was like, I kind of hit like all my needs were met, and so now I was just like, okay, I had money coming in, and I just was able to take a step back and was like, I don't like what I'm doing, and then I started getting really, really down in the dumps, and then that's when I was like, okay, I want to start my own company and shift to bigger and better and go from making money to making no money. But you know, like it's a it's I think if you can understand that, I think number one, I mean, I and I will say this, I do think everybody should learn a skill first to get to that point in life. Like, I don't like the advice of like, oh, and I know this is probably a little counter to what Gary says, but like you should be happy earning 30, 40k a year, doing what you love talking about Star Wars. That's cool if you don't have any other responsibilities where you can live off that. And I guess, and yes, you can like lower your um your uh what's it called, your daily living. You can obviously lower that stuff. But I like to be a realist, and to be honest, I think most people should learn how to make at least 100k a year because at that point, or even a bit more, because at that point, a most people's daily expenses are going to be covered, and then you can actually then optimize for what do I want to do with my life. So that's why I am so passionate about people learning skills. And for anyone listening to this podcast, if you're especially if you're under the age of 30 and you're like, there's nothing that I think I'm good at, if there's one skill that everyone should learn, I truly believe they should learn sales, because everything in life is a sale, and that industry, no matter what one you want to go with, can without any degree, if you can just like learn it, you you can make life-changing money. Yep. And it's something anyone can get into. So, like for me, I'm more of like, well, if you can sacrifice five years to get financially secure, to the point to where maybe you hate what you do for five years, but then that gives you the opportunity to live on 30 to 40k a year doing your passion. To me, that seems like a better trade-off because then I feel like you can actually put all your effort into your passion and then actually grow that passion compared to like, okay, well, I'm just gonna struggle all the time being a starving artist. And honestly, I'm sorry, like you could love music and be a star. And I say this because I wanted to get big in music at one point in my life. I don't think I was that good enough to do it, but that's still a passion I have. I now know if I sell my company and I make you know three, four million dollars in the next 10 years or whatever, well, I could now do music full-time and not be stressed out. And if my music never takes off, who cares? I can still just do it, do what I love for the love of doing it. And if you're doing what you love, trying to make 30-40k a year, the reality is you're gonna be stressed out, and it's probably you probably will start hating that thing that you're you're supposed to be loving, making that money, you know. So um maybe a contrarian belief to kind of what's out there, but that's that's kind of my view, and I feel like people should optimize for that first. Like get financially secure so that way you actually can focus on your passions.

SPEAKER_02: 27:28

I don't know. I don't disagree with you at all. I think I think my big thing with with young people, I right, I I work with with like mid to late teens and you know, kids going into college and stuff like that. We always talk about sort of life post-high school, going into college and what that means going, you know, moving on from college. And my my advice is to is is to find your passion, first off. You have to know what it is. So I I ag I I agree with you that people should get get security, understand security, right? Like understand get a skill, whether whether it be I like sales too, because what I was gonna say add to add to what your your your comment on on uh sales is sales, there's a spectrum, like there's so many different things you can sell. Whenever someone's whenever I say, oh, sales, people think of a salesman, like a you know, a usual door salesman or door-to-door salesman. There's like my cousin is a group ticket sales for minor league hockey team that is like sort of pre-exists. All he has to do is just schmooze with people and golf with people and hang out with people and and just make sure that they're feeling good. And he does, and he's wildly successful because he's so good at that just sort of small talk, interacting. He's not cold calling people being like, hey, buy my product. That's another type of sales. There's it's just a massive, like in a in a weird way, as a personal trainer running my own business. I was a sales guy. I was trying to sell people on my training, right? Like, I had to do it. And weirdly, I actually found I found my niche in that was to not sell. I was like, listen, I I'm really, really good at what I do. You can train with me or you cannot. I don't like like I'm not gonna hold a gun to your head to say train with me. And that everybody trained with me. Because I wasn't some cocky, arrogant, like, you gotta train with me, you gotta do this. By the way, that other person sucked, blah blah blah. I was just like, I'm super confident what I do. Like, if you want to do it, great, we're gonna have be super effective. But that was my that was sales.

SPEAKER_00: 29:07

How do you how do you feel about though? Let's say, because here's the thing you say, like you need to find your passion, but that's kind of an amorphous thing for someone, especially when you're young, right? Like, I mean, I went to to the navy out of high school, so it's like, okay, how do you find your passion? And I my question to you do you think that if you just get good at something, you become passionate about it?

SPEAKER_02: 29:25

Possibly, possibly, yeah. You could become super passionate as a plumber, totally. Like, I'm I'm incredibly passionate in my job, which is which is my one of my first ever jobs. I mean, I played baseball, professional baseball, and within that, I was like, what should I do as a living? I just liked the gym, and I realized I was very good at interacting with people in the gym, and I was like, I want to do that. I was super, super lucky that I sort of fell into something that I am very, very passionate about. When I say, like, yes, you you can become super passionate in the job that you sort of pick in the skill that you're like, you know, this fits with me to a certain Extent, I'm gonna follow my dad's footsteps, or this teacher was really inspiring. I'm gonna start doing that, and that becomes your passion. Sure. At the same time, I think hobbies, I think hobbies are really important, right? You're not working 24 hours a day, you're not working, most likely, you're not working 18 hours a day every single day. Every single person has some time to scroll in the internet, to watch some TV, to go to the gym, to go to a bar. They're gonna interact with other stuff in some way, shape, or form, and they're gonna be interested in other stuff in some way, shape, or form. And the second you're like, that's kind of interesting. Like, I watched I watched that person like stenciling, that looked really fun. I'm gonna try that. So you just try and like, oh shit, this is really and you just trial and error over the course of your 16, 17, 18, 20, 25, 30, 35, 50, whatever you're doing, you're just like, oh, that would be interesting. I'm gonna try that. Oh, that'd be kind of cool. I'm gonna try that. And maybe something clicks, maybe it doesn't. Like that just sort of just trying things out, I think creates ideas as long as you're aware of what you're doing, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:54

Like so, if you had a kid come to you, because I think this is something that people struggle with these days, and I think you hit the nail on the head of everyone's trying to chase what can make the most money and they try to chase the trends. So if you had a young kid or anyone or anyone, any age, I guess, and they come to you and they say, Hey Josh, I you know, I just don't know what I'm passionate about. You know, the things I enjoy is just watching Netflix with my family. But I know I want more, but I don't know what to do. I don't know what passions I have, whatever. What would your advice be to them then for someone like that?

SPEAKER_02: 31:24

What do you what do you like watching? What are your do you guys do you guys have like a favorite type of show?

SPEAKER_00: 31:28

Let's yeah, okay, let's say it's Piggy Blinders.

SPEAKER_02: 31:30

Piggy blinders. Cool. What about Piggy Blinders? Is it like them the the suspense of it? Is that is it the historical progression aspect of it? Is it the crime aspect of it? Is that there's the family aspect of it? Like, what about that show is super attractive to you? What what what sucks you in and draws you in?

SPEAKER_00: 31:44

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 31:46

Is it is it the cinematography? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 31:48

Just it's such an entertaining show. I like the the drama, it's cool, you know. I like the it takes place in historical times, but uh acting's great.

SPEAKER_02: 31:57

Yeah, that's true. Well, and then what else like outside of outside of watching shows, what do you do? Like, do you do you work out? You go to the gym? Do you no? I don't.

SPEAKER_00: 32:05

I I stay home all day. I go to I go to work, I come home, hang out with my family, watch it.

SPEAKER_02: 32:11

Okay, so then here here would be my challenge. I challenge you. So if you come home, you go to work, you go you're there all day, you come home, you watch three hours of TV. I'm gonna challenge you to like, why don't you cut back if you watch two, three episodes of the show? Why don't we cut back and do one or two episodes? And that extra hour you pick up, I want you to try something. Try drawing, try playing the guitar, try um cooking something, um, try painting, try um knitting, try crocheting, try uh singing, try looking at what you know, what it's called trading card. And I'll work with you over a course of you know some time to try to sort of say, hey, why don't we why don't we look at this? Why don't we look at that? And um the more you try, the more you get out there and just give it a try, even if it's just for one hour, I guarantee you over time something's gonna sort of click and be like, that's kind of interesting. And I'm not super super aware of like your level of attention when you're doing it. Because you might like sit down and take a guitar and be like, I just have no, like there's no this is interesting whatsoever. Or then you but then you sit down on the keyboard and you're like, oh, this is kind of this is interesting. Right? That curiosity, that little click spark of curiosity could lead to something. So let's engage with that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00: 33:17

Do you think people should try to optimize their hobbies if they have those passions? Or do you think they should just leave them as hobbies?

SPEAKER_02: 33:23

I think that I think that it's an option to go down, right? Like if you're unhappy with what you're doing and you have three or four hobbies that you enjoy, why not try to optimize them? Why not try to monetize it? Why not? Like because in the end, it might not be something that's changing it into something, like in all honesty, once I shifted doing the courage show into a business, it completely changed my relationship with the enjoyment of being on a stream, talking to people and people, right? So it might not be it might not, it might ruin your hobby. It might, but that's what life is all about, just trial and error and seeing what happens, seeing what works, right? We go we go through so many different things. Like I in a billion years, if you asked me 20 years ago, would I be sitting in my basement freaking live streaming to five to a hundred people selling cars? It'd be like fuck no, no, but then here we are. So like I I I I think life, I think a good life is a life where you're constantly just trying new things while not ignoring the things that are actually working for you right now.

SPEAKER_00: 34:25

I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 34:26

So I agree with you in the sense of like find that skill, get that steady income, get a job, don't be a waste of space, be a productive human being, but then also utilize your other time to like mess around and see what else is out there, right? So like to me, that person who spends all day work and then comes home and plops in front of in front of Peaky Blinders is is the average is majority of people, and they're miserable, they're depressed, they're angry, they don't have great relationships, like that's way too common. And I think if we can just step away from that and be like, dude, well, get out there and try something. Go go go walk in the woods. What if you become like a passionate outdoorsman? Yeah, like who knows?

SPEAKER_00: 35:02

Like, yeah, no, I agree. I think I think fear is the biggest thing, man. I think uh fear and insecurity is what stops most people. And uh I think it's always this mindset of uh it's for them, not me, which is insane.

SPEAKER_02: 35:13

I have a question for you because Gary's talking about this too, and I have a question for you as an entrepreneur and myself here. Yeah, are we so Gary Gary V has this is his he's doing his little kick, he's doing his pre-2026 kick of like here's what's gonna trend in 2026, and everybody get on that shit or else you're gonna you're gonna be left behind and you're gonna die. Anyway, one of those things is is um unplugging. He thinks that there's gonna be a huge wave of unplugging. I fundamentally disagree. Um, and I'm curious where he's coming from this because I interact with with a younger generation and I talk to them all the time, and I do not see even remotely a trend of this sort of stuff. And I'm curious about you with you. We're talking about all this like finding passion and hobbies, and you talked about a person who goes to work, comes home, and plops in front of the TV, and I feel like we're moving very rapidly towards a more a more magnetic version of disconnecting from the real world and just getting sucked into our virtual world of just entertainment and fun. And we can so I I this might be cynical, this might be pessimistic. Yeah, but I I see a trend moving towards we go to work, maybe even and we're maybe even disconnected from work because we're so distracted by the ease of entertainment, and then post that we just get right sucked right into it, might be these new forms of consuming entertainment, yeah. Into VR and all this other stuff. And I I I'm I'm curious what people who are excited about entrepreneurship and stuff like that and feel.

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

Yeah, I mean, I think you know, with AI, I th I don't think we we've quite realized how disruptive that's gonna be. Um you know, I love it for the fact that it's helped me do a lot of things in my business that I would usually have to outsource or hire a lot for. But I do think at if we take it to its natural extreme, like if we go all the way to ready player one, I think at that point it'll be get so artificial that people will start to then you know want what they don't have in a way, if that makes sense. So it's like we're mo, you know, Alex Ramosy talks about this a lot that you're the most motivated by what you don't have right there. So if you have a billionaire and all his friends are trillionaires, you're gonna feel super poor compared to them, even though you have a billion dollars, right? And I think the same thing is gonna be for right now, you know. I think a lot of us or a lot of people right now lack connection, and I think part of that is I that's what I've heard from like you know some of the younger generations or whatever, and I think that is in part due to uh the way social media has been monetized for attention. So like you have these young kids um now making a ton of money on like OnlyFans or being these like young creators and doing like just living in a digital world, uh, and so it's sucking them into that digital realm. And I think what's gonna end up happening is I actually I don't know, this could not happen. I mean it could just continue to go on that path like you were saying, but I do think there will be a a portion of people who will be like, dude, I am so tired of this, I need to get off. And I mean, I know for me personally, I love it whenever I can actually like take a vacation and I don't have to be on my phone or social media, it's like a detox. Like I fe I f physically feel so much better because I know for I think for the average human being, I don't think there will be much of a change. I think if you are someone who you know you don't want more for your life, you just want to show up every single day, and you're okay just watching, you know, you want to go to work and then you want to be entertained, you know, that kind of vicious cycle of just you know, you're gonna you're gonna let the average world just kill you because you know you just don't want to get out of your situation. It's good enough, right?

SPEAKER_02: 38:41

Do you think that's do you think that's mo a a large percentage of people or do you think that's that's most people.

SPEAKER_00: 38:45

I think most people are are okay. I think most people um are okay being okay. Yeah. I think once uh people are like, yeah, you know, I'm doing all right. I can take one vacation a year, um, you know, I have to have a roof over my head, I have some food, I have a decent TV, you know, I got my get my my my pleasurable things. For most people, I think that's good, and I think that's why most people suffer because you know, if you're super poor or you're like in a lot of pain to where like you have to make money to live, you're gonna you're gonna work really hard to get there. But when people get comfortable and they have enough to live, there's not for most individuals, there's not like this nagging motivation to do it. There's not a lot of disparity. Like for me internally, I have a lot of probably a lot of internal insecurity and need to prove myself, and I want to achieve like a one-of-one life. So just being average and okay just isn't acceptable for me. Um, and so I feel uncomfortable spending my time doing these things when I when I know I can be optimizing for for um for to do more work because that that that's enjoyable to me. Like I want, I just want to have this one life and I want it to be memorable for me, and I want to I want to do things that no one else has the opportunities to do, and I want to just um get these memories and these things together. And so for someone like me, I think what what Gary talks about with the unplug is more realistic because like I'm so in this all the time. Whereas if you're just entertained, then if an AI entertainment thing comes around, you're it you're just gonna be swapping the TV for the AI. You know what I mean? Um so I think in that in that realm, I don't think that's gonna matter. Now, what could be what is interesting is he talks a lot about uh there's gonna be people that will just pay to give you hugs and walk you around. I think that is more so the a sadder undercurrent of studies we've seen of young men not dating, right? There's that huge uptick of of young men aren't going out there, um, and there's a lot of arguments of to why that's happening. But if that continues, then you're gonna get a big portion of adults who aren't socially adept, who don't have physical connection, and so the same way they pay these girls on only fans for connection, they're gonna pay people to actually physically come out and see them. So I think that might be why you'll see that trend. Um I I don't know, like my my personal beliefs are I think every human being should aspire for more. Um, you know, I think there's too much fear of like how you're gonna live your life. Like, we we do only have one life, but at the end of the day, like it is gonna end, and if things don't go well, who gives a shit? Like, no one's gonna remember you anyway, and you know, you might as well just take a shot at it and just see what happens, right? And you know, for me, like I never and I think the best way to get over the fears of the unknown is just to get into positions and get adjacent to what you want to do to learn it. So like I I don't have an entrepreneurial bug. Like that was not my trust me, I went to the Navy for a reason. Like I was like, I want security, right? Um, so I had never the my dream was not to own a business one day, but when I my main my actual goal was once I found sales, which was a complete accident, and I saw the money I could make there, I was like, okay, I just want to be like a sales manager or sales director and just stay in sales because I just I knew it so well intuitively. And then I obviously studied and worked really hard to learn more from like third-party like guys who were way ahead of me. But then when I went to to help grow that solar company, the owner was pretty absent, and I was the number two guy. So I basically got on his dollar got paid to kind of learn how to run a company. Um, and when I saw that start to grow, that gave me confidence of like, okay, I can probably do this myself. Now, I will tell you the moment you make the leap to start your own business, holy shit, is that a hard thing to do? Um the hardest thing I've ever done. Um, but like the reason why I love the gym so much is you know, doing hard things are actually what makes you happy. And that is kind of like where people get it fucked up, is everyone wants to optimize for comfort, but comfort actually makes you sad. You're like doing hard things, like when you get, and that's what the military taught me, and that's why again, if you have no direction, I'm a very big proponent. Go join the military for four years because those are the hardest years, because you're a grunt, you're not gonna have like you gotta do the hardest jobs, work the longest hours. But you get you actually develop a lot of self-respect for yourself, which I didn't have as a young kid. You know, I went in at 18 to really find that, and you learn through hard things what you're actually capable of, and then that builds self-respect, and then that builds confidence. Um, because if you look at what confidence is, it's just a it's a history of past performance that you can rely on. It's knowing you've done things in the past so you can do things in the future. That's all confidence is, right? If you the first time you jump out of a plane, you're not very confident that's gonna work out very well. But if you do a thousand jumps, you're pretty confident it's gonna be okay. You know, I can I know because I've done a bajillion sales calls that if I get on a call, there's a 50-50 chance I'm closing somebody. But that's because I've done a bajillion sales calls, right? So I think, you know, for anybody, it's like you gotta you gotta run the hard stuff. And I think that's the problem now. I think, you know, everyone talks about how bad the world is, but I think the world just gotten so easy that everyone just thinks it's bad because they have nothing else, they have no actual bad things to to bitch about, you know, like this to be a little controversial, and it's not to say anything, but it's like the fact that we have, and this is actually like a good thing, like the fact that we actually have a group of people that can create arguments about gender right now shows you how good we we really do have it. Because I can tell you right now, if if shit was really popping off, like like World War II, like we were famine, depression, things were really going bad, that would not be a topic that would have any any conversation. But the fact that this is something that can actually be a hot topic just goes to show you that like we got it pretty good.

SPEAKER_02: 44:32

Yeah, you know when life when life is not when life is not about survival anymore, we're gonna find anything in that anything whatsoever to sort of to to create conflict, to create difficulty, because humans need it. We literally need it, we need conflict. So when when you walk around and realize that people are just inventing conflict just for the sake of it, because it's just because there's nothing else, we're not trying to fight for our lives. No, like there's there definitely are people struggling in this country, but not to the extent like you know, people who are you know less fortunate financially are still using iPhones and can still access decent food if you know what you're doing. I like it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:06

Dude, I have I've gone to some of the poorest places in the world in the military. Like I have gone to India, I have gone to the Middle, like very poor parts of the Middle East. Um, or and the Middle East is a great example. And now a lot of people look at the Middle East.

SPEAKER_02: 45:19

People are doing just fine here.

SPEAKER_00: 45:21

Yeah, it is insane. Like the some like now there are people who are not doing good here. I will, you know, of course.

SPEAKER_02: 45:27

But like we're speaking in generalities, of course.

SPEAKER_00: 45:29

Yeah, generalities, and like per capita, like the the audacity that people in the United States have to to to bitch about their situation, it's like you are in the prime optimal way to actually succeed. And I don't bel like that you you in America can really achieve whatever you want to achieve, and at the bare minimum, you can achieve middle class status by just showing the fuck up to work.

SPEAKER_02: 45:56

Like comparison, right? Where there's there's there's massive disparity, and and sure we market success as a big house and fancy car and lots of money and all that other stuff. We so unfortunately, if you're living you know, in a tiny tiny in a one bedroom place with four people and you're cramped and you're you're know struggling to get food, that's viewed as bad. That's viewed as horrible and negative and all this other stuff. But the fact of the matter is, that's perfectly livable. I mean, dude, I lived in a year for a year, I lived in a couch in the back of my gym because in the grand scheme of things, to me, that made the most sense given my lifestyle, what I and what I wanted out of life. Like, and I was I was scraping together food because I was putting everything into trying to build to trying to build something. So, like for me, my lifestyle, and I and I was perfectly happy. Like, I had no, I wasn't like, oh man, I wish I had a Ferrari, I wish I had a 5,000 square foot house. I didn't fucking care. Like, I was having fun, like it was just fine. So it's it's a matter of perspective.

SPEAKER_00: 46:52

Like, and I don't think there's wrong anything wrong with comparing, to be fair. Like, you know, that's what keeps me motivated.

SPEAKER_02: 46:57

Like, I want I mean that in in the terms of in terms of like people who who are play victim who are oh right, sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:04

Yeah, no, I don't think you should never you know it's it's and trust me, there's times where I've wanted to to play victim on things that happened in my life. I think we all everyone has stuff that happens to them. It's just you know, whenever you do that, you just take power away from anything that you can do. And instead, like you should you can feel bad about your situation, but like it's your problem to figure out. And I think the moment you understand that and you say, Okay, well, how can what steps can I take to figure that out? Once you do, you're gonna have you're gonna feel better about yourself. You know, it's the reason why like I hate the body positivity movement because I worked, I was a super skinny kid, and then I got really fit, then I got really fat, then I got fit again, and it took intent and hard work. And to me, that is what I you know I just value in general. And it's like I feel like you know, the whole body body positivity movement got got turned this into like oh it's okay to put your health on the line. Like, I'm not saying everyone has to be like jacked, but it's like you're you're you're making it like you're you're creating this like perception that it's oh that you should be rewarded for doing absolutely nothing. And it's like and it's like these these people that are like really, really, really fit, like you have to actually be cognizant, and it takes work, like consistent, hard work. And I think that's what most people value, and you know, especially with the comparisons, like the people that I admire the most, ironically enough, don't flash big houses and big cars, they flash what they do, you know, like Gary V, Alex Ramosy, like those are probably my two biggest like influency idols, I'd say. And their whole message, like, we are about the work, like the work is the goal, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 48:40

Yeah, I I I have an issue, I have an issue with uh with phrases or ideas that get hijacked into some sort of you know, weird, weird, skewed message. Like early on in the fitness industry, the body body positivity was about not being wasn't was about not getting into a depressed state, but not being complacent.

SPEAKER_01: 49:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 49:02

So being happy with you as a person and what your body is capable of doing, but not being complacent if you're unhealthy, if you're overweight, let's work to what's work to become a healthier version of you while also acknowledging and and praising what you're capable of. Yeah, that's that got hijacked. That got hijacked into no no no stay morbidly obese because you're beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 49:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 49:25

Even with your type 1 diabetes, even with your blood clots, like you're beautiful. And that that's ludicrous. Like, I agree with you in that sense. That like it got hijacked early on in the fitness industry. I loved body positivity because it was about like, yeah, don't don't be like I hate myself. That's a horrible right, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I want better for me and my family and and those around me. I want to be there, I want to be able to do the things I want to do, and my body is capable of so much. My body is beautiful because it's capable of so much. I want to maintain that and sustain that for life. So I'm gonna take my body seriously. That was body positivity.

SPEAKER_00: 50:00

And that seems like such a logical, like I don't think anyone would refute that. You know, I don't think anyone like and like you know, and to be fair, like no one, if you if you are morbidly obese, I want to be very clear. Like no one should treat like should like treat you terribly, like no one should like that does not deserve like you being ridiculed, like no one should be like like that. There's no place for that either, right? Like you know, calling your names, going after you and stuff like that. You should not be doing that.

SPEAKER_02: 50:24

But at the same time, yeah, I've worked with so many people who are are very, very overweight. That just the like it's hard, man. This this like no matter what they say, they're they're struggling, they're struggling immensely. Even even the people who are like, I am so happy and proud. No, like I I've been around hundreds, they're not, they're struggling immensely. So it like that that what it is is it's a it's a it's a natural sort of extreme response to the negativity they receive, which is to be like, no, I'm great, yeah, right? Like, and it's that that like I'm putting on that mask to to block that extreme negativity.

SPEAKER_00: 50:59

So, like we just like, yeah, you are probably you probably could are a great person. It's like it's like for your own like life. Like it's not even like for the aesthetics, it's like for your life. Like, come on. I I want to I want to switch a little bit. I want to talk v Friends, um, and especially specifically because of this new spectacular series that's coming out. I'm actually super stoked about this product. Um, but one thing I want to touch on, I think it's be very helpful for the community as a whole. Um, because they've seen what happened with Chrome, they've seen normal market conditions take effect. I kind of want to talk about for people that are gonna start getting into the hobby more. I know obviously vFriends is a newer IP, it's not as uh refined as like the NFL and MLB and this stuff. I think this there is immense opportunity here for people, but I also think there is immense risk for people who get overzealous to where they could lose big. The same way with NFTs.

SPEAKER_02: 51:54

We're talking purely, you're we're talking purely on like an investment.

SPEAKER_00: 51:59

On a side hustle, yes, on a not a collectible side, not like hey, I just want to collect. I'm talking like, okay, I I want to do this as a as an income or a side hustle. I want to make money. And I I'll I'll kind of show what I've seen, and I want you to chime in because you you've seen a a bigger, you've seen a bigger kind of um rotation on this because you've been around a lot longer. But I think, and this is gonna be my strategy going forward, I think for anyone that is gonna be doing getting in during the new spec series, um, is buy up as much product as you can for cheap, hopefully get EQL, and then rip it and ship it. That and as quick as you can, because what I've seen, and at least especially with Chrome, is there tends to be this hyper buying cycle where collectors and everyone just wants to buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. So you're gonna get inflated pricing. So that's like a peak. Then you're gonna have and then it's gonna drop off, have probably a little other peak, and then drop, and then fall off a cliff when people's money stops going, and then kind of even back out and level, right? And then I think there's two strategies, and I don't know how you feel about this, but but I think that's strategy number one, and then strategy number two is maybe do some of that, sell, or get, you know, acquire, buy, do shows, and then keep rare cards, grade, but then hold with the intent of a hold of a five-year hold, because then that will appreciate over time. And I don't know, and I wonder if that's kind of a thought process you've thought about because I with my Chrome stuff. Obviously, if you've been paying attention to Chrome prices, they've completely fallen off the cliff, um, and they're just not moving. So for me, it's like, oh okay, maybe it makes more sense to hold like grade these cards and let them appreciate over time. Because I mean, you see what a series one box used to go for, or still probably will. You know, once Chrome 2 comes out, I'm sure a series one box, those spots will probably be$850,$950 a spot, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 53:49

Well, I I think I think that was a like a little little like Apple's oranges comparison. Because like Chrome, Chrome, right, had a three million total card release, while series one had a 10,000. Like so, so that that that immediate rarity, and it has that lore of the first ever card, right? Like, so there's a lot of nuance within within this world. Like, I I personally think that like, and again, everything I say is non-financial advice, like I could be wrong, but I think you're spot on with the assessment of like we see a release, we see a spike, we see people want to jump in, we see hype and FOMO, we see uh people collecting their sets, their rainbows, whatever they want to do, and we see that that happened. People want to do it first, they want to do it as fast as possible, they don't have the patience or anything like that. If you're like I'll keep my comments to myself on that one, but like from a standpoint, it's wonderful, right?

SPEAKER_01: 54:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:41

And then very quickly, usually within uh maybe six weeks max, but probably honestly a little bit less, it starts to go down rapidly, right? That's how quickly people get the stuff they want to get, right? So, yeah, if you want to if you are if you're someone who's buying and selling in within the vFriends market, my very strong advice is get as much as you can afford to get and plan to sell it very, very, very quick. Um, I think that long-term holds on the majority of vFriend's products that are currently coming out, it's not going to appreciate that much, like in all honesty. I mean, just looking at any other IP on the face of the planet, like vFriends, some vFriends cards sell for just ludicrous, like a Gary V auto, a Mike Rubin, a Michael Rubin auto like selling for 15, 20, 25, 50 grand is just ludicrous.

SPEAKER_01: 55:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 55:28

That's just people buy what they want to buy. Does that mean uh Chrome cards are gonna just uh you know, 30, 40, you know, Chrome first first year are gonna be astronomical 20 years from now? Absolutely not. I don't think so at all. I think the black cats will be big, and I think we'll have some characters when they hit big, like, oh, they're randomly the intuitive iguana just like hit for some random reason five years down the road, comic books and a TV show and all this other stuff, and we'll see a blip, but we're not gonna see a one dollar card become fifty thousand dollars. We're gonna see a one dollar card become five dollars.

SPEAKER_00: 55:58

Like that's so what up, but what about low low numbers? Because you look at like, you know, let's just take like an NFL, like a Panini NFL or any of these like other Topps products, right? You know, you get like an old, like you get an out of five. Let's say you get like a good character. So let's say, let's see with the V friends, you have your top 15 characters, right? So let's say we compare that to an NFL, let's say we get a I don't know, let's say you get like a Patrick Mahomes rookie or a Tom Brady rookie, right? And it's an of five. Yep. Um, that of five obviously I feel like has the most value. So I want like what's your what do you feel how do you feel about like let's say you have a top 15 character in Chrome, it's and you have a an of 25 and below graded high, you don't think that'll appreciate over time?

SPEAKER_02: 56:42

I would put it at an of 10, of five, or of or one of one. I think the second you get past uh an of 10, it's not it's not gonna be. I mean, you can already see that with Chrome. Like we're seeing of 25s and of 20s being like, oh, those really aren't that crazy expensive. You know, like a decent, like I have a of I have an of 25 Common Sense Calet, I can't even sell for$100 right now. And it's of 25. But if I had an of five one, I could probably sell it for$400,$500, right?

SPEAKER_00: 57:06

Like do you but do you not think that part of that again is because we saw so much buy-in activity in Chrome, like even way longer than I thought it would go, that people that people are just a like their wallets are just a little spent. And again, they have their their collections because here's my assessment. I wonder how you feel about this. I think from what I've seen, I think the V Friends community is still smaller than we really think. It's obviously gotten a little bit more traction.

SPEAKER_01: 57:30

Tiny.

SPEAKER_00: 57:31

Tiny. So I think there's a a couple big whales in the in the space that buy up a lot, and then I think there's the collectors that want their their PCs, and once they get their PCs, they're done. And I think that's what makes it difficult to liquidate. But my if if we if this goes where I think it could go, especially with the fact that the Topps thing happened, the entrepreneur insert was really clever to me. I think there's me more with that. The Steph Curry stuff is really interesting to me. Um, if I if I go out 10 years from now, if this if this continues the way it's been going and it gets more widespread market attraction, to where the people that are buying Disney and Marvel cards start buying V Friends cards, right? Like these these Mickey Mouse cards are going crazy right now, right? I don't know if you saw the Mickey Mouse autos and stuff that are going insane. If if Gary can really pull that off, and it's a big if again, right? Big asterisk if, and then we get mass market, where it's not just the core V Friends crew that are buying and selling, and you get the the mom and pops where like you know they want they want to make it like a Pokemon or whatever, do you not then think that could potentially switch? Because if you look at some of these like certain rare Pokemon cards from you know Chrome One, whatever, like the old school, like even like the Mew uh high grid from the commercial release, that often sells for a ton.

SPEAKER_02: 58:45

So you yeah, if if if V Friends could be grow to become something as mainstream as as what they always say Pokemon meets Sesame Street, as mainstream as either of those brands, then sure. The real question is could it be that big? And I guess that's that's that's the ultimate question. I mean, like I you know, personally, um I think there's a lot of limitations that uh with with how with how with with how it's been developed, um and just looking at the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty years of IP development within the space of uh whatever v Friends is. I mean, V Friends has shifted their their goalposts of what they want to be four times in the past two years. I mean, this this was this was meant to be a kids' brand. This was marketed as a kids brand. Yeah, they came out with a kids' book, and we were I remember talking to people in vFriends about kids' books, the TV show. This is gonna be big, the TV show. We just partnered with the company that makes cocoa melon. Don't get me started on coconut. Then you know, kids, kids, kids, and we're kids' comics, and we're gonna do kids, and it's oh then it shifted. Now it's TCG. There's gonna be a big time TCG. Um think about those huge tournaments. And I remember at the very, very first official TCG tournament, Adam Ripps was talking about the future of the game and how it's gonna be evolved. and and series three cars and the game's gonna grow and I would have these long conversations with people with with with him and with uh Gary and with uh with um Jeremy about the the next evolution of the game and they're like oh we can't we can't wait that disappeared then it became the about the you know the stories and the the these comic comics but then it shifted again into selling and then the comic started and then it shifted again now it has nothing to do with kids right I don't know if you read the comic number five but that is holy shit yeah no I don't I don't read the comics I'll be honest I'm not so yeah so I just you know what you need to do go online after this and go read comic number five and you're like oh what the fuck just happened it is it takes and I I was talking to Jeremy about this he was like oh I never really thought about it that was I was like because you don't have kids I have three kids and I read this stuff with my kids my kids are like V friends yay yeah my daughter's like humble hedgehog I love him I love her and my son's like tolerant tortoise and adventure astro they love and then I open up comic number five I was like what the fuck just happened is grotesquely violent. I was like this is not a kid's brand anymore so will it become a kids brand maybe but my my view of with how dramatically they've shifted the goalpost of what they want vFriends to be I don't know what vFriends is. Nobody knows what VFriends is so could it become Pokemon Sesame Street?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:17

I don't know maybe but like the fact is it's already shifted in terms of the direction it's going in so many times that I think it's it's it it'll potentially that sort of potentially limits the amount of input of of the fandom the one I heard someone was talking about this uh someone that was kind of on the outskirts that I was bringing into the community to kind of look at it and they they made a good point and I actually thought about this a lot. I think the one limitation I think the the product could have is and this is actually from a business standpoint is key man risk. So you think about a business you know if you ever want to sell your business for X enter X multiple number of of dollars if you're the if you're key man risk where like the business really runs with you at the helm most private equity firms won't buy from you because that's just they have to work for they want something that that's that that's a money machine right and with v friends I mean in the name itself it's very centered around Gary V. And I feel like the for me I think what the next evolution needs to be is almost a like a renaming of the the of the the product to be more mass market appeal to where it is like just something that has it's like a cocoa melon or a lululemon or whatever the what that the what's that um what's that doll scary doll thing that got big um labo boo is that what it's called labu boo like something like that like some name um that would almost disassociate it from Gary himself that he would obviously still run to where like if God forbid because my fear is like what if something happens to Gary he's the the key man on the brand so if Gary goes I mean yeah I've I've said this so many times that the number one thing keeping v friends afloat is Gary.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:56

The number one thing holding v friends back is Gary right so Gary is such a uh controversial abrasive unique personality that he's able to attract a very very large amount of people right in a very specific way he also repulses a ton of people given his person and given his personality so like there are people I know who when I tell them about this they're like wait Gary V like Gary Vaynerchuk was like yeah he's like I have no interest in that oh wow like we'll give it a chance we're they're like no no no like like that dude is freaking crazy and I was like even if his right some people are even especially the world the worlds that I live in right like even if his message is great and positive they just don't they just clash with him. Other people like oh shit that's really really cool I really like it. Awesome like I I like Gary I mean I know he's can be abrasive and I know he can be rough around the edges and and and and all that kind of stuff but I I I appreciate his message.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:50

I like I like the abrasive stuff that's kind of my vibe stuff yeah I'm all for it and I have issues with it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:55

But again it also depends on and this is interesting that you bring this up right this could be why they shifted away from the kids thing. Like Gary like I made this joke when they came out with the Meet Me in the middle kids book I literally said this to Gary I was like dude are you gonna go to like Barnes and Noble and do a reading and be like yo fuck your grandparents kids like a no and I'm like like the message was there of like that's who Gary is right trying to sell something to little kids. So my curiosity is are did they sort of realize that and maybe shift away from that now and now move towards a a a product that can be marketed a little bit more tight but they also remove the curse cards.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:33

Again I just there's a lot going on and I think there's a lot of like I think you know I think it could thrive I I honestly think a rebrand would help it thrive in a way because we you know because you look at um I mean a lot of this stuff you look at any of these like anime shows or you know the Yu-Gi-Oh stuff like or the sports stuff I mean obviously the take the names out of it it's just if if if it was more of a generalized name that didn't have Gary like Gary that tied to it well then it could you could continue to expand it any way you want like you could you could it could even be like you know because it's very trait driven right I know Gary that's Gary's big thing it's these are trait every character is a trait you know you can help teach it to your kids things like that or even for for adults right you want to be this this type of trait um you know that could be something that it could lean into and I think that would even attract more people because especially with you know the self-improvement space in general right coaching space is huge you know people always want to get better people always want a way to to help educate their kids and I think if but that could potentially be a move they make um and it would remove key man risk from Gary that's my biggest fear of it is is his name is literally on it to where like I feel like that that part of it scares me as far as a gross side because God forbid like again anything happens to him or you know any type of controversy comes to him that could kill the entire product right um I I wholeheartedly I wholeheartedly agree with you I don't know I have I have a lot of I Justin I always struggle immensely with like how like how how much of my thought process I should share.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:07

I a lot of the times people in the V friends community just given my my status there sort of think I'm like super negative towards V friends and all that kind of stuff because I say some things that are putting it down and everything like that. I've sort of I I don't know I always I always just I'm curious about how much I should share when it comes to this stuff. I personally I personally think that maybe not necessarily of uh of rebranding although I kind of lean towards agreeing with you on that to a certain extent I just think that V Friends needs to figure out what the hell they're trying to do and who the hell they're trying to be like right now even the stories like like standalones these these stories are kind of interesting but you talk about their their traits like these aren't these we're trying to develop these characters to to portray bravery on brave bison versatility on virtual Viking patience with patient panda like we're trying like some sort of level of skill with skill skeleton the stories we're generating don't really represent that they have like hints on that and then they have these like haha Easter eggs about like the the the current community of vFriend they're there we're not building depth to vFriend we're creating attention grabbing stories. The reason I got into vFriends is because I saw an opportunity to help kids learn in a crazy insane world filled with technology and AI and disconnection and and lack of interaction with human beings a way to teach these younger generations how to take these traits kindness patience self-awareness bravery courageousness adaptability and utilize them by connecting to a character that's lovable and can and I saw that and I was like fuck yes this this is better than Sesame Street Sesame Street taught these things Mr. Rogers taught these things but they didn't teach them through characters they just taught them through like fun little stories. There's an opportunity here that is greater than anything that has ever existed anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:03

And to date they completely went in a different direction and you know but you know it could be part of a longer term strategy and I mean I think and I think it could always come back in. I mean you know you think about like the the layers of attention um and you know it's like that pyramid and has you know away unaware problem aware self-ware whatever um this could be part of number one just get as much attention into the product as we can fill up the funnel of attention and then from there start stacking depth because before you get people to care about depth you gotta get people to know about it and if you get more people to know about it and that could be that could be one thought process they're going through. Also it could just be normal business trying to figure it the fuck outness you know like I actually it's funny so this is actually I know a lot most people who buy vFriends products will not like this but when those um comics shipped and then there's also some issues with like some of the cards that got shipped like the the um back when we all ordered the uh the manga series and it got fucked right and obviously that was a V Friends that was their thing and they fucked it up. Yep I actually liked it and I liked it because it showed me that for as big as Gary is for as big as that product is they are still gonna succumb to business bullshit that we all deal with. And so I think you know and because you know I'm in a business and I'm running this thing um you you I see the humanity behind it of like okay so they're still just I think probably still trying to figure it out as well. You know and it is still I think such a new IP that that I'm sure eventually um as it grows organically and they start to figure out what what's working and what's really driving driving the culture and things like that it'll come back to it. I do think what you said Gary's so divisive I think because of the way he comes off and the confidence he has in the way he speaks I think people almost assume it should be ten times more than it is to where he is still running a business like a new IP and so and he's hum he's still human right still just a guy trying to build this brand new IP and I think there's a lot of human air that goes along with that that I think he probably doesn't get enough leniency on because of the way he comes across so we I we just expect yeah maybe more I guess.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:25

I mean I I'm I'll express my frustration in those situations but in the grand scheme of things I don't really care either like shit happens and mistakes happen. That to me to me that's not that's not a really a big deal within the development of of of the brand I I just again this is my per complete and total personal opinion just because of the way I think and the way and the who I am and as a as a parent and and the and watching kids grow and and someone who trains younger people and everything like that. Like I just I I I get sad sometimes and I feel like there's I feel like you're again to your point it could come back to it but I just feel like there's a massive missed opportunity to to make this something that really truly could change people. Rather than just be another brand that sells some shit and has some stuff and build you know like to me I I I genuinely think that over the next 10 15 20 years V Friends is just gonna be another company you see in Walmart and Target and you know there's oh there's a YouTube thing or maybe there's a booth at Comic Con and stuff like that. I think that's what it's gonna be which is fine. That's not bad. They will be successful their cards will still be worth something right like their comics will be fun to read like people will connect to it and love it and all that other stuff just like all of these other brands yeah will it be something that really truly changes like a Pokemon in Sesame Street I I don't think so and I and I like I at this point I like saying this out loud because I think it's a little bit of a challenge to Gary of being like you know what there's there's a big demographic out there who who who really believed in the ability to use your product with their kids and like oh here's the voice of brave bison and the voice of you know passionate parrot and how they're teaching and how passionate parrot is teaching kids to find their passion. You asked me Josh how would you help this person find their passion? Well passionate parrot has the ability through storytelling and through his or her voice to help inspire that kid to go out there and find that passion. And I just don't I don't I don't see it doing that. Will their card still be expensive and great and can people still make money off it? Fuck yes they can in fact I think probably more so than if it turned into what I want it to be right it's designed around it it's it's built around that concept these drops are coming out every three months with built-in massive rarity and huge chases Gary hypes it up like crazy another big point about like what's gonna go up and what's gonna go down at this point talking about their key man thing it all depends on what Gary's focusing on the second Gary goes on and does two or three shows talking about series two cards people are going to try to buy series two cards. But then if he doesn't talk about them for six months nobody wants series two cards.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:02

So the second you know February or March comes out and they and the specs series comes out everyone's gonna want that nobody's gonna even think about series two. That the joke of them becoming vintage happened on my show because nobody was talking about it. I was like dude do we want to do some of these series two cards they're like vintage nobody wants and that became a reality and now now VFriends calls it vintage.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:23

I feel so bad I'll be honest I feel bad um for a lot of you I think it's um whiskey jack has like this insane TCG collection um and I'll be honest when I saw the TCG come out I uh I bought a couple boxes I I was not really impressed with TCG maybe because I'm not really into the TCG types of games I grew up with like Magic the Gathering and that's like what I think of TCG. And when I saw this I was like ah the cards to me just didn't look that great and so and as a collector like I didn't like TCG. I saw series one got one of those cards and I was like oh these are sick. Yeah um very collectible I and I think TCG missed it a bit on that but I feel bad because like talking to you and some of the other the OGs it did seem like TCG at the time when TCG was out like that was meant to be this big focus.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:06

And what it was the big focus. It was like that was the thing. Even with new products coming out TC even with pins and stickers and stuff like that coming out that's what I'm telling you that art the direction of VFriends was build the trading card game. We were talking about series three the amount of times that vFriends talked about the evolution of the game gotcha the amount of times they talked about like openly just blop the amount of times they talked about series three people like is series three happening I was like yeah very literally said the next couple years we're gonna have series three and the evolution so that so that's okay that makes so there was a huge Twitter that one kid that uh I love watching your guys' talks on Twitter.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:42

You and him go at it all the time but he's always bashing um V Frame you're uh Polish Polish yeah I love I love the kid but my god he isn't he's gone he's gone crazy yeah but uh that was uh I saw him posting a clip on on on uh series three and my head I didn't know what they were talking about like oh a new chrome like so that makes more sense now with what you're saying of like oh there was meant to be this series three TCG coming out um so I hosted at at Comic Con th three years ago Comic Con so yeah two October three Octobers ago I hosted a tournament an unsanctioned tournament and I talked to Andy I talked to Jeremy I talked to Rips I talked to them about the evolution of the game and all of them were like yep the evolution were like oh can't I can't wait for people to see it like I think you'll be really like people people are some people have kind of guessed some ideas on it but not really like it was in the works and this wasn't like some sort of secret like don't tell anybody Josh this was talked about openly dude the freaking rainbow planet card this this at the very first TCG tournament like officially it's official one everybody got this card yeah stood up on a chair and was like here is the the the the new evolution of the game is this this is a boost card when casted the winner receives a boost of one aura one skill one stamina instead of your normal poop points this is this is the evolution of the game uh me and my that was meant to be like series three or whatever that one me and my my show partner uh dale dale came up with a whole line of boost cards I remember having rips on my show talking about the boost cards and hey we should work with Dale and blah blah blah this was the future this was the direction of v Friends and then a year later in October Gary was Gary just started shifting his talking to oh social shopping is gonna be the future social shopping social shopping and they did their massive huge um uh like first ever big like like uh sale where they were like Gary was walking around the room and selling stuff and like that's he wanted to represent that thing and and immediately boom shifted direction they just that that was it they started moving in that direction so so yeah I mean that that's what I talk about of like of like we had these very distinct directions of v friends and it has just shifted dramatically dramatically we had this big we had this big kick we had this kids book with the TV show and kids right kids and kids yeah it's like no more oh that's not happening I thought that was still playing out in um like Disneyland or whatever or Disney World dude no you haven't read this but I just just it's it's not it's not on the buses anymore I thought that thing was still rolling just to show you right we see we've seen the cool the cool image of motivated monster right that's the cool image of motivated monster getting born I just want to show you this image for for uh the brand that was marketed towards kids I love this guy this is my favorite of the comics I just want to get that across I'm not like mad at the comic but it's very clear shift in direction of V friends that's motivated monster ripping the heart out of his brother oh nice hell yeah hell yeah motivated some hearts right there hell yeah just standing over him after he ripped his heart out Jesus so like this we have a pretty dramatic shift in the direction of what Refrains is well I feel like I almost feel like he just did that because I mean all the books were for kids I think he just test probably did that as like a test like ooh I wonder if some adults would want to start reading these as well like a dark night series you know sure and I I talked about it on the show like there there is there in in DC comics there's also like black label which is like the dark gritty psycho version of it like okay great but like this came out of left field yeah like we don't have it's I I think right you follow Gary Gary's like and I think we've like yeah I always we always talk about that like hey Josh what's your gym gonna be like it's it's gonna be who you your your gym is gonna feel like you right sure right it's always from the top down.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:50

So V Friends feels like Gary and maybe this ties back into what you were talking about the key man thing everything like that is that like at some point if we really want this to be even a holistic brand that's that appeals to teenagers that appeals to adults that appeals to kids you know Gary doesn't do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:06

Yeah yeah it's gonna be tough I mean the one thing that seems consistent out of all of it is the NFTs. That's the only thing that seems consistent. And now I actually wonder this is a talking point. I'm glad we brought this up and then probably end on this but um I better go pick up my kids soon. Yeah no no they can stay um you know this last drop um I mean it was great for me because it was per account not per NFT right how do you feel about that because I I personally like selfishly like I was like okay yes this is awesome I can buy one series one and then the IB could be good right um because again they're not cheap but like for the people like Mike JY for example who I know has and I think you too have bajillions of these things. I have three okay so it's like in that instance it's like well I personally think you should probably get per token um that's kind of where I land on it um just because again it's like while you invested all that money in those tokens I think you should absolutely take care of the the the series one holders first um and for the ones that have more of them take care of those um I agree but I mean there's a lot to it there's a lot of stuff I mean there's a there's a huge community by the way there's probably for whoever for the community that's into the collectibles and the cards and the buying and the flipping and all that other stuff I would say probably 50% of that can of the size of that community exists in the NFT world too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:31

So most people who are really really into the cards and all that kind of stuff don't even know that there's an entire other side of the vFriends community that's super super active. And the people who who bought into the NFTs and have been around since literally day one and could care less about all this other physical stuff. They were really they're web three that's what vFriends was a web three business. So yeah there's a huge amount of those people and people there are very passionate just like the card people are very passionate about how things work how things the drop how drops went something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:58

The going uh articulated uh mindset is is agreeing with you and I would agree with you too like like I don't really care all that much but yeah in the in the grand scheme of things if if if people are investing and buying in product that has utility this last drop or this drop that's coming up or whatever I guess last drop because it just happened is um it doesn't reward it doesn't reward the people who are even more invested which is yeah that's which is kind of it's kind of weird you know yeah and I've uh I also am at the at the stage now where I I would like to see I don't know if this will happen but especially on like v Friends only drops like I could see this argument for like tops drops but like for vriends only drops I would like to see more allocations or opportunities given to streamers who stream vFriends a lot uh to get product as if they were a card shop um hey no that's what happened with manga but they didn't give it to community streamers they only gave it to big time streamers right exactly and that's where I say I get what I get from a business standpoint I get it um however my question I would then want to look at the ROI on that of like okay especially for like Chrome I know that happened too I think where you you know we you do allocations for or even for manga you give these big allocations to these big streamers but are they still streaming the product I don't see any of them doing it I see those big streamers will well they'll they'll rip the product they got and they're done they're not buying anymore here's my here's my my two cents on that is that I don't think Gary is a very very smart guy he's a and I and I articulated this to Gary I s I actually I don't know if I sent him an email or whatever it was I forget when it came to the manga thing which is I believe you would do better by sending product to me to to the moon to curry to to Ron to you people who know v friends.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:48

Because even if you're sending it to some to a to a show that has you know I don't know 1000 1500 5000 1000 followers they don't know v friends the amount of times I was on a show and they were like oh uh skill skill I don't I got to look oh do I yeah I I saw that too like I saw the same thing like oh these are kind of weird cards oh these are weird they're not attracting people to be part of vFriends right I don't think Gary actually truly understands how to develop that type of community he knows how to develop followers right this and I don't want this to come across as an insult to Gary I just I I don't think Gary I think what's happening within this v friends community is a was never planned and they're like we don't know what to do they're using it as marketing you know friends become acquaintances become friends friends become family families v friends like I think but it did happen that way yeah but I I I think that was just a Gary's a very smart person be like oh shit we're develop we're building like a super tight knit community okay let's capitalize on that but doesn't really know how to like from a from from a business standpoint capitalize on it like grassroots style if the best business model right now would be to send product to the community shows and then send people send his millions of followers to those shows because I am going to what you I'm going to bring people into the community way better than some random person doesn't know anything about vFriends.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:11

They're just gonna sell product so to me that comes across as we're not we're not focused on developing our community we're focused on selling product that's a good point actually um that's a really good point because without your show I wouldn't even be selling and going as hard as I did on vFriends so that created like a whole new show that is now super entrenched.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:32

So you do that's over that's happened 10-15 times just through me. Now how did now who came in through to the moon and who came in through Ron and who came in through Anne and who came in through these people right like yeah how many how many people came became a part of this community through you know some random poppy house thing with 4000 followers yeah interesting now they now did they sell more product did they bring in did they generate more revenue?

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:02

Probably yeah but that is but but again big picture are we focused on generating revenue now or are we focused on building this beautiful loving awesome supportive passionate base that can always ultimately sustain a business 10 20 30 40 50 years in the future well that's the question and you know it'll be interesting to see um this will be a a podcast to save and we'll we'll probably come back to it in the next uh next five years and see see who uh see how we landed on it um and see see if it came back or see if it still uh you know falls apart or if it continues to go but I think I'm here for the I'm here for the ride man I'm having fun that's what it's all about man yeah it's it that that that's what it's all about man and at the end of the day you know you get to meet a bunch of cool people and at you know I think uh I think it'll be fun to see and I'm excited for the next drop but you know I think there's uh I do think you bring up some really good points and I I I would like to see you know especially as I've gotten more into the community I think I personally would like to see more intent to the community streamers um because as you see now without that you know without them that product helping the small community streamers out there are no big streamers fueling the community it is the you the me the rons um saucy you know these guys who are consistent in there but like the view counts are nowhere and and and because and because you know these to be honest these big streamers don't care yet enough about it it's just you're they're gonna sell the big streamers is about bottom line it's not about community right exact exactly so we'll see where it ends but uh josh dude thank you so much for coming on man this is this has been a pleasure and if you guys are watching please follow Josh Courage on whatnot um his shows are f fabulous they are a ton of fun um he's got a ton of product there we go at I can't even read that J Courage if you guys can read that I think the Twitter is JCourage FIT Instagram is J Courage TikTok is JCourage16 and whatnot is the courage show yep beautiful follow him guys and also come to the courage show it's a ton of fun um he's one of the best ones to do it on there uh he does he has a ton of awesome product but also if you know you guys just want to chill and hang out and and talk business and talk V friends it's it's kind of just like this he just hangs out my last show is a super oh super bowl my last show is a World Series watch party we literally just fifteen of us just watching the World Series having a blast talking baseball that's what it was. That's it baby awesome brother well thank you so much man appreciate you Justin