#044- United by language and culture and separated by war. Russians and Ukranians in Spain.

#044- In this episode Gabi gives his opinion on the language conundrum in Russia and Ukraine. 

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Transcript

 Welcome to the Learning Languages in Society with Gaby podcast, where it's all about the fascinating world of languages and culture. Let's rock! 

Welcome to Learning Languages in Society with Gaby. The podcast show that takes you deep into the fascinating world where languages meet culture, communication, and real life interactions. It is a pleasure to be here with you again. I'm your host Gabi, and today's episode is called United by language and culture and separated by war. Russians and Ukranians in Spain. We'll be diving into a topic that touches not only on language and identity, but also on the real world impact of geopolitics, particularly in the lives of those who've moved abroad. In this episode, we explore the intricate dynamics between Russians and Ukrainians living in Spain.

And more generally speaking, living abroad and how they navigate their shared history and how the ongoing conflict between their home countries has created a divide. So let's start with some basic but crucial questions. Do all Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first language? In which regions do Ukrainians speak Russian, and in which regions do they speak Ukrainian? 

So, stay tuned and find out the answers to these questions in this episode a little later, but first a small introduction to the topic.  We're going to talk about the Ukrainian diaspora's shift from Russian to Ukrainian.  So, this is language in times of conflict. Throughout history, language has always been a powerful tool of identity, politics, and culture.

For the Ukrainian diaspora, especially after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as you know, in the year 2022,  language has become more than just a means of communication. It has become a symbol of resistance, national pride, and cultural preservation. As Ukrainians abroad increasingly shift from Russian to Ukrainian, the global Ukrainian  Demonstrates how deeply personal language choices can be, especially in the context of war and political conflict.

This phenomenon echoes similar instances in world history.  Where language has been weaponized, politicized, and used as a tool of identity in times of conflict.  Now, we're gonna talk about the historical context of language in Ukraine. The linguistic situation in Ukraine has always been complex. For centuries, the Ukrainian language has, was oppressed under various foreign rulers, including the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, both of which sought to marginalize and suppress the Ukrainian identity.

Russian was often promoted as a language of the elite and intellectuals, while Ukrainian was relegated to the status of a peasant language. This culture, erasure through linguistic dominance, created deep scars in the Ukrainian collective consciousness. During Soviet times, the use of Russian became widespread across many regions of Ukraine.

Particularly in urban centers and the Eastern parts of the country, Russian was the official language of government, education and media, while Ukrainian struggled to maintain its place. Even after Ukraine gained independence in 1991, Russian continued to be dominant in many areas, not just in Ukraine, but also among the diaspora who had immigrated during the Soviet era. 

However, the conflict with Russia has triggered a radical shift in how many Ukrainians perceive the Russian language. As Ukraine strives to assert its independence and cultural identity in the face of aggression, more and more people are choosing to speak Ukrainian, rejecting Russian as a symbol of oppression.

and colonization. For Ukrainians abroad, this shift is often more pronounced as they seek to stay connected to their roots and distance themselves from a language now associated with the aggressor.  Let's go back to our questions. Do all Ukrainians really speak Ukrainian as their first language? Uh, in which, in which regions, uh, do Ukrainians speak Russian and in which regions do they speak Ukrainian?

Well, the answers are more complicated that you, than you may think. Ukraine's linguistic landscape is diverse and shaped by centuries of history, cultural exchanges and political pressures. While Ukrainian is the official state language, the reality is that not every Ukrainian grows up speaking it at home.

Many Ukrainians, especially those from eastern and southern regions, have spoken Russian as their mother tongue for generations now.  Let me give you some historical context. The Ukrainian language, while part of the East Slavic group like Russian and Belarusian, evolved separately. It traces its roots to Old East Slavic, spoken in Kievan Rus the medieval state from which both modern Russia and Ukraine claim heritage.

However, by Over centuries, political events deeply influenced the linguistic map of Ukraine. During the Russian empire and the Soviet Union, Russian was imposed as the dominant language in many parts of the country, particularly in administration, education, and business. This has resulted in a bilingual or even Russian dominant society in some regions of Ukraine.

So where exactly is Ukrainian spoken and where is Russian prevalent? More prevalent. Well, Western Ukraine, including cities like Lviv, Ivano Frankivsk, and Ternopil, is where Ukrainian is most widely spoken. These regions have strong historical ties to Central Europe, particularly Poland and Austria, and have maintained a firm sense of Ukrainian culture and linguistic identity.

Even during Soviet rule, Western Ukraine resisted efforts to russify Ukraine. And today Ukrainian is overwhelmingly the language of choice in this area.  Central Ukraine, including the capital, Kyiv, is bilingual. While many people in Kyiv speak Ukrainian, Russian is still widely spoken, especially in informal settings. 

Kyiv's population tends to be flexible, switching between the two languages with ease. However, in recent years, there's been a growing trend of Ukrainians  in the capital adopting Ukrainian more actively in everyday communication as a symbol of national pride and resistance to Russian aggression. 

Eastern and Southern Ukraine, including cities like Kharkiv, Donetsk, Lugansk, and Odessa have long been predominantly Russian speaking. These regions have historically been more industrial, with closer economic and cultural ties to Russia. After Ukraine gained independence in 1991, Russian remained the lingua franca in many of these areas.

The situation in Crimea, which was annexed by Russia in, uh, 2014, if you remember, is similar,  and it is overwhelmingly positive. Uh, Russian speaking,  however, it is important to note that language doesn't necessarily dictate political allegiance. Many Russian speaking Ukrainians strongly identify as Ukrainian and are deeply patriotic, especially in the light  of the ongoing conflict with Russia. 

This leads us to our next question. Do Russian speaking regions of Ukraine align more with Russia's political ideas?  It's a common misconception that Russian speaking Ukrainians automatically support Russian politics positions. While it's true that some areas, particularly in the Donbass region, Donetsk and Lugansk, have seen pro Russian sentiments, especially during the early days of the conflict in 2014, many Russian speaking Ukrainians have fought on the Ukrainian side in the ongoing war.

For these individuals, speaking Russian is a matter of linguistic heritage, not political loyalty.  In fact, the war has led the opposite effect for many. Since the 2014 annexation of Crimea and the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, more and more Ukrainians, regardless of their first language, have adopted Ukrainian as a way to assert their national identity. 

This shift is not only happening in Ukraine. Within Ukraine, but also among the Ukrainian diaspora abroad, including in Spain. For many Ukrainians who grew up speaking Russian, switching to Ukrainian is a way to stand against Russian aggression and reclaim their sense of national pride. Well, you might be wondering why I talk about Ukrainians living in Spain, and the reason for that is because I myself live in Barcelona, Spain.

So, um, I'm also part of a running club. Which is called, uh, Ukrainian Running Club.  Uh, and so I know some of the individuals. Who are part of this club, uh, they're great people. And I, I, I truly love talking to them, uh, about this sort of topics every once in a while. So yeah, now this linguistic shift is particularly noticeable in younger generations who are more inclined to use Ukrainian in daily life for obvious reasons, right?

They're more prone to, uh, well, they're, they're, they're more connected, connected to what's happening right now in terms of, uh,  Political climate and war and so on  Language has become a form of resistance, a way for Ukrainians to unite against a common enemy, even for those who grew up with Russian as their mother tongue.

Now, notice, however, that I'm only, uh, touching on this subject in a, in a really, um, Let's say in a very neutral way. I don't want to paint, uh, one country as, as the murderer and the other one as the victim. I don't want to have to take sides or anything like that. I'm just merely speaking about, uh, how language is, uh,  also, let's say, influenced by, by what is happening right now in, in, in Ukraine.

Okay.  But what does it mean for Ukrainians and Russians to live in Spain together? Okay, that's a question that is interesting. Well, Spain, like many other European countries, has seen an influx of both Ukrainian and Russian migrants over the years. Many of these people have been living side by side for decades, sharing cultural events, businesses, and even social circles.

But the war has created a deep rift between these communities. For some, language remains a breach. Uh, share the elements of their cultural background and for others it has become a dividing line, a reminder of the political conflict tearing their countries apart. So in today's episode we'll hear personal stories, uh, from Russians and Ukrainians living in Spain.

How do they navigate these tensions? Well,  What happens when your mother tongue is tied to the language of, uh, of the enemy state? You know, that's, that's a really good question. Can language and culture still bring people together when their nations are at war?  You know, very hard questions to answer, I would say. 

For instance, I spoke one time with a A, uh, a woman called Edina, it's a Ukrainian woman living in Madrid who grew up speaking Russian in Kharkiv. Since the start of the war, she has made a conscious decision to switch to Ukrainian, both at home and in public. She told me that for her, speaking Ukrainian is a way to honor the soldiers fighting for Ukraine's independence.

But what about her Russian friends? How have they reacted to her decision? Okay. Now that's a question, uh, which remains to be answered. And then there's Dmitry, a Russian man who has lived in Barcelona for over 15 years or so. He's against the war,  obviously, but feels conflicted. He still speaks Russian, uh, the language of his family and heritage.

But now he says there's an unspoken tension whenever he interacts with Ukrainian friends, many of whom have switched.  Is language enough to keep them united, or will the war ultimately pull them apart? Well, we don't know. We'll also explore whether Russians in Spain, many of whom do not support the war, feel the pressure to distance themselves from their own language and culture.

What happens when your language becomes politicized, and how do you maintain friendships, relationships, and even businesses? or in business partnerships across this cultural and linguistic divide. Yeah, that's really tough questions right there. You know, these are complex and emotionally charged questions.

Language is also, has always been more than just a tool for communication. It's a marker of identity, culture, and belonging. And in times of war, Those connections become even more fragile and important.  So stay tuned as we unravel these deeply personal and poignant stories. You'll hear about the power of language to unite and divide the emotional weight of switching languages.

And the difficult choices people make when their identity is at stake. So let's get started.  The role of the  2022 word in the linguistic shift.  Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022 catalyzed a linguistic revolution within the Ukrainian diaspora. While many Ukrainians abroad had used Russian as a convenient lingua franca, especially those who had lived in countries.

Um, uh, Um, Uh, transcript. Um, uh, Um, uh, transcript. Um, uh, Um, uh, transcript. Bombings and occupation for Ukrainians living abroad in countries such as Canada, the United States, Spain, Poland. Switching from Russian to Ukrainian became an act of solidarity. It became a way of showing support for their homeland and And a means of contributing to the cultural and national identity Ukraine was striving to protect.

In cities with large Ukrainian communities, like Toronto or Chicago, the shift to Ukrainian could be seen in Ukrainian community centers, churches, and cultural events. Russian language media and resources were being replaced with Ukrainian ones. And even the diaspora who had previously communicated in Russian started making the switch. 

The decision to stop speaking Russian, however, was not merely a practical one. It was deeply emotional. Many Ukrainians felt an overwhelming sense of guilt when using Russian, as it reminded them of the destruction and devastation brought upon their homeland. The language became tainted with the aggression of the Russian government.

And this association was difficult for many to shake off. For Ukrainians in Spain or Canada, using Ukrainian became a way to actively oppose Russians attempts at erasing Ukrainian culture and history.  So there you go. That's, that's what happens. There's this switch from, uh, Russian to Ukrainian for emotional reasons, right? 

So this, uh, this, I met this one woman named Olga, a 33 year old Ukrainian woman living in Spain. She shared her experience. She said that for as long as she can remember, she spoke Russian, uh, with her family and friends, both in Ukraine and abroad. But after the invasion, speaking Russian started to feel wrong to her.

It was, uh, no longer just a language, but it became a reminder of the suffering of their, of her people. Now I speak,  she speaks only, I speak some Russian. I speak, I would say that a decent amount of Russian and I certainly understand it pretty well. I can understand Ukrainian as well.  So I sort of understand the fact that switching from one language to the other is probably not as hard as, uh, as it may seem.

Right.  Now, uh, Irina spoke, uh, only Ukrainian, now she speaks only Ukrainian. She spoke before only Russian, now she speaks only Ukrainian, even though it's harder for her. Because it's, it's kind of, it's kind of like, uh, she's not really used to it, right? But on the other hand, it's a way of fighting back.

This kind of reminds me a little bit of, uh, of what happens here, uh, in Catalonia. Where, you know, most of us are bilingual, we speak Spanish and Catalan.  But what's really, um, interesting about this is that  a lot of people don't really speak Catalan very well. There's, uh, there's tons of expressions that, uh, people use, uh, in Spanish and they kind of translate those into Catalan.

Uh, they use kind of like the wrong expressions and, and there's false friends everywhere. And they just, uh, they mimic everything from  grammatical Spanish structures. And they turn them into Catalan structures. It's just some, sometimes those just don't work at all. You know, they, they don't know the, you know, the words that let the right lexicon in Catalan, they would just, they would make up,  make up new words, right?

They would kind of like pronounce Spanish words with the Catalan accent. Well, a lot of these things happen across different languages, um, and, and contexts. Uh, this would, for example, be the case of, I presume the case of a Russian and Ukrainian as well, where people tend to.  Uh, you know, make up for the deficiencies they have in Ukrainian with, uh, Russian words that kind of make them sound more Ukrainian, I guess, and I don't know. 

We that's that's just the way it goes, you know,  okay language, uh as a political tool now What is language as a political tool now the shift from russian to ukrainian in the diaspora is not just a personal decision Uh, it reflects a broader political landscape in which language becomes a tool of power and control So politicians, especially in times of war have historically weaponized language to assert dominance shape national identity and erase cultural differences That's a big one, right?

Now the conflict between Ukraine and Russia is a prime  example of this. For example, for years, the Russian government under Vladimir Putin has sought to justify its aggression by claiming to protect Russian speakers in Ukraine, right? Which is, I don't know if it makes much sense. The Kremlin has framed the conflict.

As a way to defend the rights of the Russian speaking population in the Donbas region, using language as a pretext for its military actions  by promoting Russian as a dominant language and undermining Ukrainian. The Russian government is attempting to impose its political and cultural control over Ukraine. 

Now, this tactic is not new throughout history. Language has been used by governments and political regimes to control populations and assert dominance. One such example is the colonization of Ireland by the British, for example. You know, the English government imposed the English language on the Irish people, suppressing the Irish language and culture.

So there is this, um, as we all know, there is this, uh,  uh, connection between language and culture, you know,  and, and, and obviously if you eliminated your race, uh, language from the cultural landscape, well, the You know, the culture kind of evaporates and disappears with it.  The decline of the Irish language was a direct result of British policies aimed at erasing Irish identity and promoting English as a language of power.

In the 19th century, the great famine and the mass immigration of Irish people to the United States further accelerated the decline of Irish. As English became the language of survival and opportunity.  Well, similarly during the Franco regime in Spain. So we're talking about Spain now, the Spanish language was imposed as the sole official language while regional languages like Catalan, uh, as I mentioned before, uh, Basque and Galician were banned in public spaces, education and the media, the suppression of these languages was part of a broader effort by the.

Francoist regime to create a homogenous Spanish identity, erasing regional differences and cultures. The scars of these policies are still felt today. As movements for the revival of regional languages and autonomy continue in Spain. Well, if I spoke to my dad, uh, about this topic, he would probably agree.

He used to tell me that, uh,  he tells me sometimes when we talk about this topic that when he was young, He would only talk or he would only speak Catalan at home and, and with his peers when we're, you know, whenever they played outside on the streets, but they would be careful to address, uh, older people in Spanish rather than Catalan.

Uh, and so they, they kind of knew they had this intuition, even though they were, Uh, teenagers, uh, and even younger than that  to not use the wrong language in the wrong context. Cause that could probably, you know, put them in, in a,  in jeopardy, in a, in a, in a bad situation, in a bad context.  So that's, that's interesting, uh, such young people to have,  uh, to understand that the context, the linguistic context is incredibly important. 

Very interesting. Anyway, uh, another example can be seen in the conflict between, uh, Turkey and the Kurdish people. The Turkish government has historically suppressed the Kurds. The Kurdish language, banning its use in schools, media, and public spaces. The Kurdish language was seen as a threat to Turkish national unity, and by suppressing it, the government sought to weaken Kurdish identity and resistance. 

In all of these cases, language was used as a tool of oppression and control. The suppression of minority languages served to raise cultural identities, strengthen political dominance, and undermine any resistance. To the ruling power for the Ukrainian diaspora. The decision to speak Ukrainian instead of Russian is a direct response to his, to this historical pattern of language being weaponized in times of conflict. 

Now, the emotional impact of language in times of war. Mm-hmm,  . Language is not just a tool of communication, as we've said, uh, as I said before, it is deeply tied to emotions, memories, and identity. For Ukrainians, the decision to switch from Russian to Ukrainian, as we said, is often fraught with emotional difficulty.

You know, many Ukrainians, especially those who grew up in Russian speaking households, have fond memories associated with the Russian language. It is the language of their childhood, their family, and their personal history. But in times of war, these feelings become complicated. For many Ukrainians, continuing to speak Russian feels like a betrayal of their country and their people.

The language that once brought them comfort now feels like a reminder of the pain and destruction caused by the Russian invasion. Detaching oneself from these emotions is incredibly, incredibly difficult. Even for those who want to continue using Russian, the weight of the conflict makes it hard to do so without feeling guilt or discomfort. 

We're going to talk about, uh, Maria. She's a 50 year old Ukrainian, uh, woman who migrated to Canada.  Uh, she explained her internal struggle. You know, Russian, she said, is the language I grew up speaking with my parents, is the language of my favorite books and songs. But now, every time I speak it, I feel this deep sense of guilt, like I'm betraying Ukraine.

I've started speaking Ukrainian more, but it's not as natural for me, it's like I'm learning a new part of myself.  Okay, now this emotional conflict is a common experience for Ukrainians, both in Ukraine and abroad. As I've said, uh, before, now the war has forced them to reconsider their relationship with the Russian language even as they acknowledge the difficulty of letting go of a language that is so deeply tied to their personal and cultural history. 

Yeah,  it's, it's true that sometimes when you speak, uh, or you try to not speak a language, uh,  because of some, because of a political reason, Such as in this case, right? And you try to speak instead another language,  uh, there's, there's things that don't work, right? Because language is like kind of a continuum.

So you sort of, uh, you can express some emotions in one of the languages, but sometimes you can't. Cannot really feel nor express those emotions with the same intensity  in in the other language So what you end up doing basically is you end up forming a new language that combines  Everything from emotions the rational part the part that wants to  stop speaking one of the languages and and and It's crazy.

It's just a, it's hard to, it's just really hard to be in that position.  Yeah, really, really hard to be in that position. Anyway, what are the broader implications of language and conflict?  The shift from Russian to Ukrainian in the diaspora is part of a broader global trend where language becomes a symbol of resistance and identity in times of conflict.

As Ukrainians abroad increasingly adopt Ukrainian, they are making a political statement about their identity and their country's sovereignty. This phenomenon underscores the powerful role that language plays in shaping national and cultural identity, especially in times of war. In the case of Ukraine, the adoption of Ukrainian is a way for the diaspora to show solidarity, solidarity with their homeland, assert their independence from the Russian influence, and.

preserve their cultural heritage. It is a reminder that language is not just a neutral tool of communication, as we said before, but it's deeply, deeply political and personal. So, especially right now, obviously.  Anyway, guys, I'm going to wrap it up now. Uh, thank you for listening to me. Uh, it was a pleasure to talk about this really interesting topic today.

I'm going to be speaking about, uh, this, uh, much more Because it's a, it's a pretty interesting subject and I, I might as well interview people who happen to be Ukrainian and who live here. And, and it might be really interesting to talk to them and, and see what their point of view is about this linguistic, uh, conflict.

Anyway, uh, stay awesome and please do not forget to subscribe. Bye bye.