Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end. So join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing, and also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me today for our episode talking about returning to work and breastfeeding. And I am really honoured to be joined by Genova Messiah, no pressure on her shoulders, but I don't think I could have found somebody more qualified to talk about this subject. She is an historian. She's a heritage officer who works for Tower Hamlets in London. And she's been doing a study on the experiences of families returning to work over the past few decades, as well as interviewing families about their current modern experiences. So she collaborated with an oral history organisation called On the Record for their project Grow Your Own. And she looked at archives going right back to the 1950s. She's also a current ABM Peer Supporter, a mom of two, breastfeeding her two year old. She has her own experiences of going back to work while breastfeeding. And I think she's gonna be able to really give us some interesting perspectives on this topic of returning to work. Thank you very much for joining me today, Genova.

Genova Messiah  01:42

Thank you so much, Emma, thank you for the introduction as well. Hopefully I can live up to it. 

Emma Pickett  01:48

I just think you're an expert, and it's gonna be fantastic, but no pressure at all. So tell us a bit more about your oral history project. So was that when you interviewed these parents, which must have been such an honour to speak to parents going right back to the 1950s, what really struck you about those conversations you had with parents?

Genova Messiah  02:03

So, I was lucky enough to use a lot of the collections that were recorded by on the record the organisation that I was working with, so they had done some oral history recordings going back to the 1950s. So I use their collections. And I actually recorded mom's from the present day, to kind of compare how the experiences was from 50 years ago to now to see if you know, there was the same problems and issues on returning back to work. And listening to the oral history recordings from the 1950s. It seemed that there was kind of some similarities, there were myths and kind of information that was given to people in the 50s, like drinking certain things and putting certain things on nipples, breasts to weed and stuff were very similar to present day. So the moment that I recorded for the podcast, they was a kind of a mixed bag. So there were some really positive stories, and really some really negative stories as well. So there was no two stories that were the same, which is kind of similar for people's breastfeeding journeys. In general, you know, everybody's journey is unique. And everybody kind of goes on their own journey. There's some similarities, but there was kind of a mixed bag. So one of the mums that I interviewed, had started a petition to allow breastfeeding moms to have breaks, if they will, went back to work under 12 months, because there's no laws in the UK at the moment, that require employers to give breastfeeding mums brakes, to pom pom to go and feed the babies. So the mum that I recorded had a pretty good experience with her employer, it was just navigate in because there's no direct law that moms or employers can refer to you kind of having to use a lot of different health and safety acts and sexual discrimination acts, which can be a bit of a minefield. So that's why it's a really mixed bag, because sometimes people just don't know. Yeah, what your law is and what they're entitled to.

Emma Pickett  04:12

Yeah, I mean, let's talk about the law in detail in a minute. Because I know you've got a lot of knowledge around that. And I think some people will be really shocked to hear what the situation is in the UK. And I would definitely I'm looking forward to investigating that further with you. But I guess, because of the lack of law, there is going to be such a variety because it just comes down to the discretion of the individual employers half the time and, and the ability of the employee to to, you know, be articulate and to argue their case and to grab information from different places. So it makes sense that there are such varied experiences. Daft question, but I mean, obviously, looking back at the 1950s I guess there were breast pumps, but they were much more rudimentary, I'm guessing. Do you think that returning to work in the modern era is easier for breastfeeding parents because of modern breast pumps, or do you have this, there's still lots of barriers in place?

Genova Messiah  05:01

I think that the breast pumps now even for one I am from my personal experience, even when I went back to work after breastfeeding, my eldest, the breast pumps, 10 years down the line now, I'm so so more advanced and like you can have them like, easily, discreetly in your bra. And you know, you kind of don't have to have like, a whole contraption out and then clean it and have this stuff the whole space whilst you're at work. But I also feel like, no two people's experiences are the same. Like I've never pumped, I've never been I've never been a pumping mum. So to start that all off, whilst going back to work, I feel like that would be a whole new thing to learn. Yeah, because I never pumped before I went back to work. So I think that that, in my mind, I was thinking, Oh, am I going to have to start learning how to pump and I was thinking, Oh, like that started to kind of stress me out. So I think it just depends on if you ever used a pump, if you're familiar with using the pump, some pumps are very expensive. And that also can be a barrier for some people that are not able to afford to buy those kinds of really modern, up to date pumps. So I think it just depends on mom's circumstance.

Emma Pickett  06:19

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's important to mention that, that, you know, there's such a financial barrier. Some of these more discreet pumps are super expensive, I mean, more expensive than then, you know, even a double pump used to be 10 years ago, I mean, just completely off the charts for some people. And I guess it means that for some people, that fear of going back to work can be a real emotional barrier. What you're what you just said then about how worrying about having to learn a whole new set of skills, I quite often work with families who are months away from going back to work, but but really worrying about it and imagining what that practically is going to look like. Tell us a bit bit more about your experiences of going back to work. So if you don't mind me prying too much into your own personal experience. So fine. So you were you obviously you're currently breastfeeding now, which is brilliant. Tell us when you went back to work. And I know you mentioned a podcast episode that you've recorded that we're going to put in the show notes that talks a bit more about some of this oral history work and actually has clips from some of the Oral History Archives. And in that podcast, you mentioned that you didn't really know people who are breastfeeding in real life at this point in your life. So tell us a bit about how you experience going back to work.

Genova Messiah  07:25

So the other mums that I knew that were returning to work around the same time as me, it was kind of just the conversation of oh, well go back to work. So I need to start weaning. So it was kind of like something that went hand in hand like you've stopped breastfeeding. It seemed like people were stopping breastfeeding when they were going to return to work. And I wasn't ready to do that. So my daughter was a little bit older. Luckily, I was able to be able to turn it up for 13 months. And I just thought to myself, because she's a little bit older, maybe I can kind of manage feed in my feeding schedule around my working hours. So I've seen it before I started work and allowed feeder straight on up when I picked her up from childcare. And I only did two days. So I kind of went down really part time. So I was lucky enough to kind of gradually kind of adjust my body to the gap that ate our space where I wouldn't have her with me. And it seemed to work. Okay, the first couple of weeks were quite difficult with like engorgement, and I was just itching to get back home and feed her after the first couple of weeks. But my body did kind of adjust pretty quickly to the fact that we would have eight hours apart. And as soon as I picked it up from nursery, it's like my buddy knew up babies here. And I'm kind of

Emma Pickett  08:48

Spraying as you walked into the nursery!

Genova Messiah  08:51

That let down feeling straight away. As soon as I like picked him up, I usually like to set her on the bench outside the nursery. So we didn't wait to get home. But because of the the gradual return to work, I think that really did help. But I know it's more difficult for some mums that go back to work much earlier from six months or nine months. And they're still breastfeeding is still very much a big part of like, the daily routine.

Emma Pickett  09:13

Yeah, I'm sure there are some people listen to this. We've got listeners in the United States who are thinking Hang on, did you just say six months is early? Because that would be the, I mean, you know, I've had clients who've gone back to work and sort of three weeks, four weeks

Genova Messiah  09:27

It's, it just beggars belief doesn't it?

Emma Pickett  09:29

I know, it's so hard to imagine, and there's much more of a pumping culture. Also, I should think some people went whoa, she's never she never pumped. How does that even work? Because it's such an assumption that breastfeeding and pumping go hand in hand for many people. And I think it's really good to hear you say that pumping wasn't part of your breastfeeding experience. I think it's really important people to hear that. So 13 months then your daughter was obviously eating solids, drinking water, was she drinking any other kind of milk? 

Genova Messiah  09:56

So, she had started to drink cow's milk by that point in wasn't on a regular basis. And they asked the nursery were really great actually, because they asked me if I wanted to come during the day and feed her, they said that you're more than welcome to come and feed her if you like in the nursery, that's brilliant. I thought that was amazing that they had, they had offered that to me. And they did ask if I wanted to give any pumped milk for them to give to her during the day. But I thought, let me just see how she is. So obviously, she had a certain an in period, and I wanted to see how she would be just having food and water provided by the nursery. And she seemed to do just fine. She didn't need any milk, or she didn't need any pumping or whatever pumped anyway. But she didn't need any kind of milk throughout the day while she was at nursery, she just we just breastfed before and then after.

Emma Pickett  10:47

That's great. That model of feeding in the morning, food and water in the day feeding in the night, I think is so important for parents to hear about. So I've had clients who started that as young as 910 months, when children are really good with solids, and they're happy to drink independent from a cup. It's absolutely possible to not pump and go back to work. You mentioned that you're a bit and gorge for the first couple of weeks. And then your body got used to not having that demand in the day. Did you on the weekends and the days that you weren't working? Did you feed her as normal on those days? Or did you also try and keep that eight hour block on those days as well?

Genova Messiah  11:21

So I did try initially to keep that block, especially in the beginning. But as kind of the weeks and months went on after returning back to work. I don't know my body just seemed to be okay with gaps in time of not feeding. But even if she did feed throughout the day when I wasn't at work when I went to work nice and I had longer periods. I didn't feel as engaged. I don't know your body's amazing it just No. Just knowing like, oh, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, you're at work. So I'm not going to produce as much milk as I do on Saturday and Sunday. I don't know if that's how it actually works. I'm sure there's a science to it. But it seems like it kind of just just adapted.

Emma Pickett  12:07

Good. So you didn't have any mastitis. You didn't have any part from your bit of engagement? Nothing serious?

Genova Messiah  12:13

No, not at all. Not at all. No, because she fed so much during the night time. It's like she was making up for it.

Emma Pickett  12:20

Okay, so bit of reverse cycling may be so. So reverse cycling is sometimes what happens when children flip their day night. And they actually end up feeding more frequently at night and not taking as much milk in the day. And actually for some parents who are co sleeping. They don't mind that at all. It can be a real real bonus. Did you struggle with more feeds at night? Or are you okay?

Genova Messiah  12:39

So I did initially when I went first went back to work. I did struggle with a lot of night feeds, which can be a bit tricky when you've got to wake up in the morning for work, you know, if you've had one of those nights where every hour your little ones waking up to feed, but well I did start to night when so after about, I'd say about three, four months of being back to work. I started to night we were I wouldn't offer breast during the night. So it would just be a feed before bed. And when she woke and then when it was morning, she would have another feed. That was tricky. That was very, very tricky. 

Emma Pickett  13:12

Yeah, that's a good word to describe the experience. So she was she was about 16/17 months at this point, something like that? And yes, tell us a bit more about your night weaning experience. How did that so, how did you, what did you do that was different and how did that actually respond to that?

Genova Messiah  13:26

So when she woke up, I would offer Cuddles, like reassurance thing, sometimes a little bit of water from a sippy cup. And that was very hard in the first couple of days to a week. But then after a week of like doing that every single night, she started to sleep longer and longer stretches. And he's like she knew like my mom is going to feed me as soon as the sun rises so that we just stay asleep to the sunrise.

Emma Pickett  13:55

Did you actually say those words did you talk some people use this book nurses when the sun shines and actually talk about milk being asleep at nighttime? Did you actually say that to her or it just you just sensed it?

Genova Messiah  14:04

I would say that to outside mommy will feed you when it's morning time mommy will feed you when it's morning time and then when morning time comes up like Mommy's gonna feed you now. And then it just kind of just helped so much I just kind of stay asleep for longer periods are not waking as frequently as she was.

Emma Pickett  14:21

Okay, so you are an example of a story where night weaning did mean longer intervals asleep and you were still co sleeping with her at this point.

Genova Messiah  14:29

Yes, I was. I was so close to April that I co sleep with her all the way up until she was two. And then she got a toddler bed in the room of her sister. And she still gets into my bed from time to time. But more often than not she's in her own bed.

Emma Pickett  14:43

I'm glad you had that positive experience with with night winning that's so a tricky week tricky in terms of you're not getting sleep or tricky in terms of her reaction. What in what way was it tricky?

Genova Messiah  14:54

Both really so sleep deprivation. And she did get really upset She could see obviously it's difficult when you're so when she's so used to feed in so frequently during the night alone, all of a sudden, she's like, why is this is my comfort? I Plickers. Obviously, we feed for comfort. So I just think that she just got very upset, because I was trying to find every other way to comfort her. But that's what she wanted. She wanted to be fed. And there were some tears from her. And for me, it really did help because, you know, we're both sleeping a lot better now. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  15:28

Okay. So difficult week, but, but you were absolutely there for her. I think that's the important thing to stress. There was no sense of leaving her to cry, you know, nothing like that. You're absolutely there supporting her, trying to find alternative ways of comforting her. And she understood you were there.

Genova Messiah  15:43

Yeah. And that's all I had to keep reminding myself like, I'm still giving her cuddles. I'm still reassuring her. I'm still singing to her. I'm still comforting her in a different way. But I'm not leaving her to try and have just like, self set or anything.

Emma Pickett  15:55

Yeah. Well, one of the things that impresses me about your your storage over is that you mentioned that your friends had stopped breastfeeding, you didn't really know many other people who'd breastfed. And there was you had this sort of inner instinct to kind of know how to manage things like you, you knew that you wanted to carry on breastfeeding, despite not having necessarily a lot of support, you instinctively knew that you didn't necessarily need to pump you knew when you wanted to start doing your night weaning, you got this amazing inner reserve to kind of just get on with everything. Did you have anybody in your life who was a kind of model for your breastfeeding experience, or anyone who was sort of a mentor? 

Genova Messiah  16:29

Yes, my mom. My mom breastfed me and my two younger sisters, until we were all about 18 months old. And she breastfed, she had me when she was 19. So she and I was also quite young mom as well, when I had my eldest, I was 22. So there was a lot of comparison there in our experiences. So and she had me at time when they would offer formula in the hospitals and things and they were just like, you know, she kind of got, like, advice that breastfeeding wasn't necessarily something that she needed to do. But she kind of did it and got on with it without not any support. So for me Sure, Mom role model. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  17:13

What an amazing woman. So do you mind me asking me she gives birth in London? Were you born in London?

Genova Messiah  17:18

I was born in London. Yes, yes. 

Emma Pickett  17:20

So 19 year old in London, with all the lack of support for breastfeeding in a hospital environment and breastfeeding you for 18 months. Amazing. What an amazing. 

Genova Messiah  17:31

Yeah, so I had the perfect role model for when I had my eldest and second time around as well. So, you know, she had navigated it. Breastfeeding and time when it was really difficult to do so. So I don't think I would have breastfed if it wasn't for my mom at all.

Emma Pickett  17:49

But it's important to her granny's make a lot of difference. They really do. And she's, and she was local to you. So she was able to give you kind of in person support. Yeah.

Genova Messiah  17:57

So when I had my eldest, I lived with my mom. So I was in the same household. So that helped. Massively. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  18:05

well, I'm really glad you had that. That positive role model. That's brilliant. Three cheers for Jehovah's mom. I don't know if she'll listen to this, but was special lady. She is a special lady indeed. 

Genova Messiah  18:16

And helping me on the return to work as well with the kids. She has been amazing. 

Emma Pickett  18:20

Did you mind me asking, did she go back to paid work outside the home when she was breastfeeding? 

Genova Messiah  18:23

She didn't because me and my sisters are really close together. She had me and my sisters. And then after she had my little sister, she she returned to work. But a little bit later when my little sister was because she had free little ones. So a little bit later on. 

Emma Pickett  18:41

Yeah, that makes sense. I think for some, for some parents going back to work. If you've got to pay for childcare for two or three kids, it quickly becomes not financially worth it, which is a whole separate conversation about what's happening in the UK with childcare. So let's just kind of sit and pick your brain a little bit of the stuff about the statutory rights. So you refer to the fact that in the UK, we don't have the right to paid breastfeeding breaks Now, correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that there's a weird bit of law that talks about if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, you have the right to rest. But it doesn't say what that means. It doesn't say whether you can pump in those rest times doesn't say how frequently they are. It doesn't say what space you'd be in. So we're in this really weird space of having nothing written down. And does that make us unusual compared to other countries? How are we different from other countries, for example, other sort of industrialised Western countries, for example?

Genova Messiah  19:35

So other European countries, Spain, France, Sweden, they have actually Sweden's a little bit longer, but Spain and France, they have breastfeeding paid brakes. For women with babies under 12 months. I think Spain is under nine months. I'm pretty sure that France is 12 months and I think Sweden is a little bit more I think it's 18 months So that's specifically for breastfeeding mums. Whereas the UK has to kind of, we have to kind of use laws under the Health and Safety acts. So you kind of have to justify your case as a breastfeeding mom. So there's no specific laws for moms that are breastfeeding.

Emma Pickett  20:19

So I know there's been some cases that have gone to kind of tribunals that have formed a sort of case law that some people use to support their situations. So does that mean when you go to your employer and you say, I want to be able to protect my breastfeeding? They can say, well, sorry, you can use your lunch here. That's it. Is that? Is that really legal? For someone to say that to you? 

Genova Messiah  20:41

Yes. And no. They say, again, this is really a case by case basis. And the best thing to do is to formally write to your employer about the fact that you are breastfeeding and kind of what you would need, and why you kind of have to say why you need to have those more frequent breaks. Most of the time, most employers are like, like, yes, you can have this much time this much time, especially if your child under 12 months, if your child is over 12 months, you kind of don't have as much of a case as you would if your child was a little bit younger. But again, it is under the discretion of your employer, how frequently they give you a break. So yeah, you don't have like automatic right straightaway.

Emma Pickett  21:24

Yeah, what I find surprising is the number of people who think that we do and believe that we do and go ahead assuming and then get a bit of a shock when they find out how weak the situation is in the UK. So a CAS have a document called breastfeeding and working or breastfeeding return to work or something that talks about kind of individual employers making the best case scenario and best practice decisions. But it really does you say it sometimes it touches on health and safety law. So if somebody was able to make a case, for example, that they were had an increased risk of mastitis. Is that the sort of language that they might be able to use in writing to their employer? What would you if someone was writing to their employer to ask for a paid break? What sort of suggestions would you make for what they could include in that letter?

Genova Messiah  22:11

So they could include the fact that it can cause mastitis engorgement in mothers, but also that breastfeeding reduces the likeliness of oh, sorry, my little one is here. 

Emma Pickett  22:23

That's alright. We welcome little ones. Well, we were just talking about you and your important contribution to the story.

Genova Messiah  22:29

How did you manage to find my lipstick?

Emma Pickett  22:34

You found a lipstick did you? 

Genova Messiah  22:37

Ofcourse she did. Yes.

Emma Pickett  22:39

I want to keep all this in the podcast, because this is the experience of being working mom, we have arrived on the conversation with lipstick now. I don't think she's wearing the lipstick. But just

Genova Messiah  22:50

she's trying to but No, she's not wearing the lipstick. But she's trying to the phone is not broken, honey. It's okay. Would you like to come and sit with me? No. We can have some later. Would you like to take this one? All right. With me? Oh, sorry about that.

Emma Pickett  23:11

No, don't apologise. We're very happy to see extra people on the podcast, Hello, little person. So we're talking about, you're talking about the legal situation in the UK and how someone could talk about the benefits to the child. So obviously, if you're breastfeeding your child, they're going to have reduced risk of childhood illnesses, which means less absence for you, less need for you to do additional caring. So employers really benefit from people having breastfeeding breaks and having breastfeeding rights. Can you think of any other ways that an employer kind of benefits from breastfeeding being protected?

Genova Messiah  23:45

What was well, obviously, when you have your employee returning to work, you wouldn't want them to be stressed out, or, you know, as a mom going back to work, it's very easy to you know, be overwhelmed with everything that's happening. So you know, your employees well being it's really important, her leaving her baby or her not being able to have that time to pump or to have that break, you know, she may very well get very overwhelmed. Because I remember, had that happening to me at work, you know, I needed to take a couple of breaks and my first couple of weeks because, you know, I just felt very emotional about everything. Yeah, that mental well being is really important.

Emma Pickett  24:30

Absolutely mental wellbeing with employers have a responsibility don't need to care for their staff. And on a very sort of calculating cold level mental well being also means improved retention, someone's less likely to leave their job if their needs are being met, and recruitment and retention and things that you know, matter a lot in the sort of economic climate so so it's not just the employees that benefit from breastfeeding rights, but the employers as well. If you're talking to someone who's going back to work and their babies super little How many breastfeeding breaks? Do you think someone's going to need to be able to maintain their breastfeeding if they're going back to work? So at six months, say when their baby's fully dependent on breast milk, what do you think's pretty likely day? What's their sort of structure likely to look like?

Genova Messiah  25:17

Do you know there is actually a lot of conflicting advice on this like a lot. When I interviewed one of the mums for the podcast, she was told one thing by her health is it are another thing, there was another bit of guidance on the NHS website. So she actually didn't really know how often I think it's, I think it's something like, the advice she was given was every two to four hours that she would need to pump. But, you know, I suppose you just have to kind of think about how frequently you're feeding at that point. It is, you know, everybody's situation is different, and how everybody, you know, how a breast about breastfeeding baby doesn't stick to any kind of fixed routine or hours to feed, I suppose you just have to judge, depending on your experience with your baby beforehand. It's about planning. 

Emma Pickett  26:14

Yeah. And I think planning to be flexible, I think is really important. I think that that two to four hours, sounds really vague on paper, but actually, it probably is fairly realistic. So if someone's going back to work at six months, and producing a full milk supply, their baby could be feeding sometimes, after an hour, sometimes after three hours, sometimes after four hours and, and when they're at work, they may not have the ability to be quite that flexible. So they have to sort of roughly pick a time. And it's going to depend on your storage capacity as well. So some people can go longer without feeling any engorgement, and some people will need to put more frequently, it's going to depend on what kind of pump you have. So it's going to depend on your job, because if you're a traffic warden versus working in a quiet office, your experience is going to be quite different. What I normally say to moms around six months is if your working day is nine to five, probably aim to be pumping at sort of 11 ish and to ish and see what happens. And if that doesn't work, and you need to adjust it after that, you can always adjust it after that. I also talk about how don't assume you necessarily need to pump an enormous amount of milk in those times, even if you just take the edge off and have a little bit of you know, comfort from having a little bit of milk removed, that could be enough, people worry that they've got to have vast amounts of milk that they transport backwards and forwards. But as you mentioned earlier, some children will drink less milk in the day when you're not with them. They may not be massive fans of bottles, they may only have you know 2030 mils here and there. And then they'll make up for it when they're with you and drink more milk when they're with you. So we don't have to necessarily pump enormous quantities. And I also talk about how you may not necessarily need to wash the pump every time. So people worry about having to wash and sterilise. But I talk about something called Wet bagging, where you essentially get the pump with all the milky bits, put it in a plastic bag or a Tupperware box, put it in a fridge, and then you can just take it out and use the same thing the next time without necessarily having to wash and pump. Every breastfeeding counsellor and every peer supporter should be able to talk to you about what's your plan, and what what are you going to do what's practical for you? They'll talk you through where's your childcare? What's your journey? Like? How long are you going to be away from your child, they will help you sit down and work out what you need to do. And it's going to be different for everybody who as you say it's going to be a different experience for everybody. But even though we think that babies need to have 30 mils of milk for every, you know, hour they're separated from us, that isn't necessarily true for an older baby. And that isn't necessarily true in every single situation. You know, America has much better breastfeeding rates than we have in the UK. And significantly better at six months and 12 months. And we've got massive amounts of maternity leave, and they're all going back to work well under six months in the case. It can't be that work is the barrier to making breastfeeding happening. It must be that it's possible to combine breastfeeding and going back to work. Tell me about some of the mums that you spoke to you said there were positive experiences and negative experiences. What did some of those negative experiences look like?

Genova Messiah  29:09

So I think it was more of mums, not really knowing how to approach their employer about the subject. And when they did and approach their employer about the subject. I think it was more that because there's no specific legislation or there's nothing specific for an employee, the employer to refer to, I think it was kind of just assumed that the mom will be able to like navigate you themselves. Or there was a story where mom was like, she went to employer saying I'm going to be breastfeeding On my return to work. And they were like, oh, okay, that's cool. Kind of was there was no there was not much back and she didn't want to go too much into it because the fact that he was a man and she didn't really know how to kind of go into detail about it. So yeah, she kind of just like secretively went to PA I'm on her breaks. And instead of storing, like milk in the fridge, she would just pour it down the sink.

Emma Pickett  30:07

Yeah, because she didn't feel she felt embarrassed about asking for fridge space or making it obvious. That's what she was doing. 

Genova Messiah  30:14

Yeah, so she mentioned it to her, but because she didn't get much in return of support, like, Do you need a space? What do you need? It was kind of like, Oh, okay. Yeah, that's cool. And she just Yeah, didn't really push the subject much after that. 

Emma Pickett  30:30

That's, that's sad. I think sometimes some of the modern working methods can make things a bit tricky, because people don't tend to have their own offices anymore. There's very little, there's lots of hot desking and flexibility. And so people don't necessarily have many meeting rooms anymore, or physical spaces. And, and it can be difficult. I once visited the mayor's office in London. And the entire I was actually walking around with someone called Helen Crawley, who was working for first steps nutrition trust, and we were talking about breastfeeding in the workplace. And the whole room, the whole building was glass, there was literally no space in the office environment to bump, the only spaces they had or little meeting rooms that were also being used for prayer rooms as well. So if you wanted to pomp at a certain time, you could easily be running into someone else or clashing with somebody else. And I think it's sometimes we it can actually be harder in these modern offices to sort of find a private space. I mean, I do have been secretive. That's so sad, isn't it to imagine that this sort of shame around it? 

Genova Messiah  31:30

Yeah, it's, it's those are the kinds of stories that I've heard, just because a lot of the time moms just don't want to talk about it with their employer, I suppose if they could find a way to have that kind of safe space to talk to the employer in a way that because a lot of the time people just don't understand, especially if your child is a certain age, if your child is 12 months, people may assume that why is your baby still feeding? Does your baby not eat food? Like why would you need extra time off to pump? Why would you need this extra space? Because your baby doesn't necessarily need it after a certain time in some people's minds?

Emma Pickett  32:08

Yeah, well, sadly, in the UK, not so unusual. When we have lots of prejudice against breastfeeding beyond infancy, you've got to educate people on about five different levels, if you want to have that conversation, and it puts a lot of pressure on the parents for sure. Tell me about a positive story that you have someone who spoke to. 

Genova Messiah  32:25

Yeah, so I spoke to one that lady that was returning to work, and she is a teacher. So it's a bit tricky as well to have time to kind of pump when you've got a classroom full of kids to teach. But she told me that her employer was really really supportive and asked, How often would you need a break? Or do we need somebody to kind of like just take your class over when you needed to go take a break, she said her employer was really understanding and kind of just followed her need and what she needed, which I thought was really positive. Even though the employer didn't necessarily know anything in particular about the law, or what was in place for breastfeeding moms, they kind of just navigated it together. And I think that's a really positive story. Because you both can be kind of not really sure about anything. But if you kind of work together to find the best, like plan of action, then it doesn't really matter how much of the law, you you kind of know, from the offset, you know, you can kind of go on the journey together. 

Emma Pickett  33:26

Yeah, that's a good way of saying it, I think a decent employer wants you to be effective, wants you to be happy, he wants you to be able to work, you know, in a way that's good for everybody. It just seems logical, doesn't it that you'd want to find solutions and, and work things out. Teaching is often a job which I worry about when it comes to protecting breastfeeding, because I used to be a primary school teacher and I can't imagine how you fit it in when you've got you know, you're running from one classroom to playground duty to lunch duty, you got half an hour here to mark and pump at the same time. But so it's really nice to hear a teacher having that that positive experience for someone to even say, you know, they'd be willing to take your class, that's really special to hear that I'm glad they had that experience. So when somebody is going back to work, and let's imagine they're, you know, a couple of months off going to work, what sort of preparation do you recommend that they do in those first in those weeks or months before they go back to work.

Genova Messiah  34:18

So definitely, if you have KIT days, which called keeping in touch days, some employers offer like up to 10. During your maternity leave, I would say try to take as many of those as possible because it really just helps you kind of get into like the mindset of what it would be like to leave your baby and go to work and how baby copes and how you cope with kit days. You don't have to stay a full eight hours, you can kind of do it gradually during your maternity leave and kind of whatever an hour, two hours than three hours you know, you can do at your own pace. So if you do have kit days, I definitely recommend that you take as many of those up as you can. Also plan ahead. If you're going to have your little one in childcare, kind of give yourself a little bit of time to for your little one to adjust to childcare before you go back to work. That's so helpful. Because you can do it again, gradually, two hours, three hours, four hours settling in to see how you and your baby cope apart from each other. And then you can also see how often you're going to need to pump a how quick it is that you feel in gorged during your separation from the little arm, from your little one, also, to write to your employer formally to tell them that you still be breastfeeding when you return to work. There was a great charity called Maternity Action. And they have a lot of templates on their website of best ways to kind of format a letter to your employer.

Emma Pickett  35:47

Yeah, thank you for mentioning Maternity Action, because they are a really important resource. And as well as their templates and resources on the website that talk through the law and tell you what you're entitled to. They also have a helpline as well, if you're really getting into a sticky situation, and you can talk to people in person if you need to, as well. I would just add to your loved brilliant list, maybe see if anyone else at work has gone back to work breastfeeding, because you might you might not even realise it. But there may have been someone who's gone through the same experience as you who can tell you how they worked things out, and what room did they use? And, you know, how did they have conversations. And it means that not everybody has to be a trailblazer people can follow in other people's footsteps. And some bigger companies actually have official mentoring systems where you get kind of buddied with somebody who's you know, who's recently gone back to work or even sort of formal groups or, you know, chat groups. And you can may be able to find support from your colleagues as well. If we wanted to improve our rights in the UK. I know there's been a lot of discussion about this in previous years. And actually, probably about 1012 years ago, when the shared maternity leave came through legislation. It was during the coalition government and maternity action, were actually leading a push to change the legislation around workplace rights around breastfeeding. And the government said, Sorry, we're not going to put protected rights in place. But we'll get a cast to write this guidance. And that was when the a CAS guidance on on breastfeeding and working was produced. But we don't have as you said, we don't have any government who's willing to commit to paid work breaks, we've got an a general election coming up at some point next year. Now's the time isn't it to maybe try and get people to write it in their manifestos? How would you recommend we go about trying to change things?

Genova Messiah  37:28

So you can write to your MP, that's a good way to start the ball rolling. You know, if if as many mums as possible write to their MPs, you know, it can make a difference. And also, there was the mum, one of the mums I interviewed she'd started a petition for paid breaks, for moms aren't breastfeed and under 12 months, so you do have to get like quite a few signatures for it to be heard the petition to be heard. But I think that, you know, those kinds of low level campaigns can make a difference right into your MP signing petitions, you know, I suppose even start in, in within a group I know there's breastfeeding support groups, I'm sure that you can write to your MP as a collective, you know, a write to your local authority as well as the connective and vote, make sure you vote in the next election. 

Emma Pickett  38:21

Yeah, vote for the people that talk about breastfeeding in their manifesto in a way that values and recognises its significance, even though we may even be able to get breastfeeding rights in the workplace in the manifestos. But certainly you want someone who understands why it's important, so the conversation can happen. Yeah, people are a bit scared about writing to their MP, it sounds a bit sounds like something a bit fancy doesn't it sounds like something that you have to have three university degrees before you're able to do it. I mean, do you have any advice about writing to an MP? 

Genova Messiah  38:49

Well, you can, again, Maternity Action, is great. They do have, they do have some great, like legal advice. And they do as you said, they do offer free advice. So through them, you can also ask how to kind of like word, a letter to your MP, also, Citizens Advice Bureau is really good at kind of word intent and giving templates out to send to your to MP. 

Emma Pickett  39:14

Yeah, and I would just say also, it even if you're not very good at writing, we don't feel very confident writing your own words, your own language, your own story, you know, as long as you've got your information of who you are, and you sign the letter at the end, that's what the an MP is going to want to hear. And you can find out who your MP is, you know, literally just with a Google online if you don't know who they are quite easy to find. Yeah. So don't feel you have to be able to write some fancy letter before you're allowed to write to your MP Do you can email them you can. It's really straightforward. Quite sometimes they have forms on their websites where you can just write write or an inquiry, just say that it matters to you and just to stress. There's no point writing to the prime minister or writing to a Minister for Health because you have to write to your MP. That's the way it works in the parliamentary system in the UK, you start writing to me Pay then they write to the minister or, or the Secretary of State. So always start with your actual individual MP don't go straight to somebody who's in charge of legislation. So I don't think we should ever give up trying there are all these other countries in the world who have paid work breaks. Isn't it weird that America has rubbished maternity leave? But yet there are paid work breaks, and lots of states have even additional paid work breaks above the sort of federal law? Why do you think that that happened? And why do you think America is better at protecting breastfeeding in the workplace than we are?

Genova Messiah  40:34

I think it's probably more to do with the fact that their maternity leave, there is no non existent. So they have to like protect speed in in some way. Because obviously, if moms are not having that time to feed their babies during maternity, then when would they possibly feed their babies?

Emma Pickett  40:50

Okay, that makes sense. So our excuses, we've got really good maternity leave, so we don't need it, and that it's more essential for them because they've got rubbish mentality. Okay. Yes. Well, as you and I both know, people breastfeed beyond the first six months and beyond the first 12 months, and they can breastfeed for as long as they want. And that should be compatible with working if that's the right thing for the family.

Genova Messiah  41:10

And I think that's probably why we have those kind of ideas about like, breastfeeding, not necessarily being beneficial after 12 months or certain amount of time, because it's in people's heads that, you know, mom gets a certain amount of time off to, to breastfeed or spend that time with baby then after that, you know, everybody needs to be independent. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  41:30

go back to work and pretend you don't have a baby, that's often often seems to be what people are being pushed to do. But yeah, it's nice to hear the positive stories when that's not the case. Okay, let's, I'm gonna ask you a really cheesy question here. Tell me about why it's lovely to be breastfeeding. When you do go back to work. Why were you glad that you didn't wean? What did breastfeeding back at work give you?

Genova Messiah  41:50

The return home after being at work all day and being away for a little while all day, you know, it was just a great like, reconnecting experience, like when I would pick her up, and then I would feed her, you know, there was no words, there was nothing else I needed to give her. It was just, it was just between us. You know, it's it's a bonding and comforting experience for myself, you know, for stressful day after work. She's kind of bouncing off the walls after nursery, you know, calms us both right down. grounded, you know, we have that nice, feeder just after nursery, but a lot of the time would come home, sit on the sofa, and just snuggle and, you know, I've been away from her for hours. I missed her. So it was nice for her to just kind of reconnect in that way.

Emma Pickett  42:36

Yeah, I love the way you say it's for both of you. I think that's so important. Everyone's Oh, yes, it's great for the baby to get the antibodies. It's actually just really nice to just be together, isn't it and just remember, remind yourself, you've got that connection, and, and it's for you, as well as for her. It's your oxytocin, it's your mental health, it's the bond for both of you. It's not just what we're doing for the baby or the toddler. So I'm really glad you highlighted that. I think some people might listen to this podcast and almost be a bit scared about the situation in the UK. And oh, my God, that sounds like really hard work. Really, it's all down to me, I've got to kind of find out all this information. So what resources would you signpost people to we've mentioned maternity action and their guides, is there anything else you'd want people to know about or any reading that you'd want to signpost, people to?

Genova Messiah  43:22

ABM has a great resource library, there's so much information on there about returning to work. And they also have this really great page where you can put in your postcode, and you can find local support in your area. So I think that's it's really great if you had like a local breastfeeding group or support group that you went to, you know, before you went back to work, because as you said, it's really good to kind of speak to other moms that have been through that process. To help you out. I really love that resource. When anybody asked me like, how do I find a breastfeeding support group on that use this ABM site, I have the great thing. We could just put your postcode and it just shows everything that shows you like how close you are to like a group. I think it's really great for networking and finding support in your area.

Emma Pickett  44:10

Yeah, so breastfeeding support groups are not just for when you've got a sore nipple on week two, it's also for just connecting to other people before you go back to work. And you can talk to the peer supporter or as you say, you can talk to other mums as well. And just hear what the people's experiences have been. And the breastfeed network and the NCT almost every large organisation has got something about returning to work on their website and some sort of tips and resources and ideas about how you can go about organising things. And you know, big Facebook groups, some of the really big breastfeeding support groups, have, you know, her people who can give you information as well and, you know, obviously, looking on a hashtag on Instagram, you'll find people sharing their stories. So don't be frightened about that. Although the situation in the UK is a bit rubbish. It does not mean that there are not 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people going back to work and making breastfeeding going back to work how You know, a happy experience. It's absolutely doable, and we should keep fighting the fight to get statutory rights in place. But case law is on our side. There are cases where, you know, people have been, you know, an EasyJet air hostess, I believe was one of the one of the cases there. Yeah. They're, you know, it's out there, there is case law that protects your writing, if you're just good at finessing how you explain things to your employer, even the most, you know, stubborn employer will realise that, you know, they need to protect you and protect your rights, not get mastitis, etc.

Genova Messiah  45:33

Yeah, and have it and even putting it in writing can be really helpful, you know, to kind of go get through that first barrier of having that conversation with your employer. As I said, yeah, there's lots of templates on which only action and other great resources and other sites as well on how to start that conversation with your employer. And most of the time, you know, employers are quite responsive and want to support employees return to work as kind of smoothly as possible.

Emma Pickett  46:00

Yeah, I mean, there's there aren't many evil horrible people out there who just want you to have a horrible time, most people want you to be happy and work and effective. And, and you know, we were going to be talking to some people listening may be the bosses and maybe the employers and, and you know, they can look to maternity action for suggestions and advice as well. And I would also say, if anyone's been a trailblazer, you can change policy in your workplace, you can get a policy written, you can start a peer group system, you can start a buddy system, you can, you know, once a month, have a little chat with other people have gone back to work and create an environment for other new moms. You compete, help the people that come after you and create that atmosphere for for new moms, and parents who are returning to it when they're breastfeeding. Thank you very much Genova for all your time. And thank you for your very lovely listener who's been very patient and hopefully not drawn lipstick all over the walls. While we've been we've been talking, is there anything we haven't covered that you really wanted to make sure that you said or that you wanted to make sure we highlighted and just 

Genova Messiah  46:58

Yeah, prepare, and kind of trust your instinct as well, because you know, your baby and yourself better than anybody else. So just trust your judgement, on your return to work? Because a lot of the time, yeah, you know, what works for you and your baby? 

Emma Pickett  47:16

Yeah. And if you don't yet know, because it's a brand new experience. You don't have to know everything on day one. Sometimes you'd go along on day one, you just got to get through day one. That's all you have to do. And then you'll you'll adjust as you go along. And then week two, you might do something a bit different. And that's okay. And there are people on the help lines at the National breastfeeding helpline or local support groups who can help you think through your decisions as you as you go along. I totally agree with you. It's important to plan and definitely write the letter to the employer, but it's also okay to not have all the answers on the first day you go back to work, you might need to see how things go a little bit and like many people have done before you. Thank you so much for your time.

Genova Messiah  47:56

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Emma Pickett  47:58

So we'll put the put your podcast your Childcare Voices podcast link in the show notes. We'll put Maternity Action in the show notes. I'll put the ACAS guidance in the show notes. And if there's anything else, when I post this on Instagram, maybe people might have additional questions underneath if there's anything else they want to cover. 

Genova Messiah  48:14

Thank you. 

Emma Pickett  48:19

Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  48:19

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @EmmaPickettIBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.