The one with the abscess and the breastfeeding

As a self-confessed TV addict, I couldn’t resist the opportunity to talk to Lauren Heeley, Senior Script Editor at Emmerdale, about representations of breastfeeding on TV. We begin with Lauren’s own story, a struggle to get help when an infection became an abscess just weeks after her daughter was born. Then at around 20 minutes, we discuss breastfeeding in some of our favourite, and not so favourite shows, including Friends, The Office (US) Game of Thrones and the notorious, Little Britain.

Find out more about breastfeeding and chest feeding older babies and children in my book Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond: A Guide for Professionals and Parents

Get 10% off my books with the code MMPE10 from 21st December 2023. Find them at https://uk.jkp.com/collections/author-emma-pickett-pid-240164

Watch the clips we talk about here - 

Friends: The one with the breastmilk Season 2 Episode 2 https://youtu.be/D2RNE-RttKg?si=n33-2s8JZblKC7Xb

Friends: The one where Rachel has a baby. Season 9 Episode 1 https://youtu.be/PCNqt7qnXwo?si=-ZKCFFJiGPpO7ShF

The Office US Season 6 Delivery Part 2 https://youtu.be/pS9rTOEN3FY?si=TJ8UlROW7on-stqw

Peep Show - Luxury Milk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtiyNv7zCbQ

A Dark Adapted Eye - https://youtu.be/sE1hYGKNXt0?si=_i2Tnz4LHGYKmh-j

Little Britain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuPBbFOiygo

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:47

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. Those of you who are Friends fans may have noticed the Friends theme and the title of the episode, The one with the abscess and the breast milk. And I'm talking to Lauren Heeley today, and it's gonna be a sort of episode in two parts. So we're going to talk about Lauren's feeding journey a little bit as well, she had a struggle with a bacterial infection that developed into an abscess just to prepare you if that's upsetting or difficult for any of you to hear. We're also going to be talking about breastfeeding representations in television, because Lauren is a senior script editor for a well known UK drama series. And we will go into details about that towards the end. So I'm hoping we're going to be able to pull this off and it's not going to be Hey, Lauren, thanks for telling us about your abscess. Now let's talk about Rachel in Friends. I'm hoping we're going to be able to sort this out and get the balance right. But we're going to work that out together. Thank you very much for joining me today. Lauren. 

Lauren Heeley  01:41

Thank you for having me. 

Emma Pickett  01:42

So you're currently breastfeeding your 18 month old? How is daily breastfeeding life for you at the moment? 

Lauren Heeley  01:47

Yeah, I mean, it's smooth, which is a novelty. But yeah, I mean, it's that weird kind of thing, because you're so desperate to do it. And now it's 18 months, and I'm very much over it. So, yeah, it's one of those. It's a love hate relationship. But you know, overall, fantastic. I'm just really proud and happy that I got myself to this point. And we can still you know, feed on demand as she wants it really, we've kind of cooked down the day feeds. So we're just kind of feed him first thing in the morning last thing and I and then overnight whenever she wakes up, which is quite often, but you know, I'm just grateful that I can do that. And, you know, in the in the times where I'm just kind of feeling a bit. Oh, I just think no, you know, when I was first starting out, I never thought I'd get to six weeks Nevermind 18 months, so yeah, it's one of those love hate things.

Emma Pickett  02:34

Yeah, I think anybody breastfeeding a toddler will totally sympathise with the idea of love and hate. It's the it's the best of times and the worst of times. Isn't that the the beginning of the novel?

Lauren Heeley  02:46

The Tale of Two Cities? Yeah,

Emma Pickett  02:48

Well done. Well done. If this was a Christmas quiz, you get a point. Yeah. So so it's, it just can be so draining, especially if you're feeding through the night. So you've made a choice to carry on with demand feeding right now, which sounds like it's working for you. But you have cut down a bit in the day. Was that something that was difficult to do and took a lot of effort? How did that go?

Lauren Heeley  03:05

I thought it might be I was a bit apprehensive because then I went back to work when she was 13 months old. So I kind of you know, did the whole pumping and worried about how much she was going to take at nursery and all that. But she can just naturally. Yeah, I got used to that rhythm of eating solid foods in the day when she was away from me. So you're on the weekend, there was a bit trickier because obviously she had me on tap, but we kind of fell into a bit more of a rhythm of just feeding at night. So yeah, it she's she's definitely got used to that. Now she's still sometimes asked on a weekend. But you know, I don't really refuse. But yeah, it's just all the hormones that come with it. And it you know, it kind of sends you up and down a bit, doesn't it when you kind of try and get your milk supply steady, but then it's like actually, no, she's gonna feed like a monster for the next two days when you sat down some day when you're not at work. But yeah, she just did really well. And I think I did fortunately, as well. So, so yeah, just kind of wanting to keep that going. 

Emma Pickett  03:59

Yeah, no, that's a good place to be so. So we're going to talk about some of your tougher times in your early stages. So you did have a bacterial infection that developed into an abscess, how old was your daughter when that happened? 

Lauren Heeley  04:12

Ooh, I mean, it was a very slow build, I think we had problems from the start. And the problem was, obviously the bacterial infection went undiagnosed for months. And so it kind of obviously had time to grow and develop without anyone stopping it. You know, originally, we thought it might be a little cyst or a blocked milk duct, but I also had kind of stabbing pains. It felt like someone was holding a lighter to my nipples, is how I described it. And obviously, you know, Thrush was the first port of call but you know, we tried all the thrush medication and that didn't work. See, I was kind of a bit of a loss, really, and the GPS didn't really know how to deal with me. And they just kind of said, well, you just have to stop. You just can't. You can't breastfeed basically.

Emma Pickett  04:57

Oh gosh, that's so hard. How was your daughter when they said that to you, so I think she was about six weeks. Oh, my goodness. So yes. So you'd had difficulties for several weeks, and really from the very beginning? 

Lauren Heeley  05:08

Absolutely, yeah. She didn't latch very well in the hospital. And I stayed an extra night overnight just to kind of get help with the breastfeeding and, you know, much love for the NHS. But the midwives that I dealt with were not trained in breastfeeding. And every time I called for help with her latch, the response I got was, shall I bring you a bottle, and which didn't help at all. So, you know, I finally got a midwife that knew what she was doing, like 24 hours after she was born. And she was, you know, dehydrated by this point, because, you know, I was desperately trying to feed her and not not knowing if she was even getting anything. And we did kind of relearn and succumb to a bottle just to kind of reset, I suppose. And it kind of took me a while to forgive myself, I suppose in some ways for that happening. I know, it's, you know, when you're in the kind of midst of hormones, and you don't know what you do, and you're just like, God, someone helped me, they must know what they're doing. But, you know, when you kind of do your own research after you just like, Well, all I really needed was help with my lat. And then also, you know, to add to that we had a tongue tie issue. And unfortunately, the waiting list for that to be released was 16 weeks.

Emma Pickett  06:14

Oh, no, that's just shocking. Isn't it is absolutely horrifying. I mean, I'm so so sorry to hear that. I mean, that's yeah, I mean, where I live in London, as you're looking more like sort of two to five weeks max. So yeah, 16 weeks is just ludicrous. Who's gonna who's gonna hang on for that? 

Lauren Heeley  06:29

That's four months. I mean, it's just yeah, the thought of going through that was just, but you know, I think I'm very passionate about why it just It blows my mind that, you know, something as important as infant feeding is just kind of put on the backburner, and you can wait. Surely it shouldn't be something that's done instantly. You should have a professional on hand to diagnose a tongue tie first, and it's qualified to diagnose a tongue tie in hospital before you even get out of there. I think I know, this is the dream world. 

Emma Pickett  06:55

No, well, no. You know what, Lauren, it should not be the bloody dream. Well, yeah, let's use that. Let's use that word bloody, let's get you can't live in a state of being cross all the time. But the idea that you literally didn't have anybody that could help you latch your baby on, that is outrageous. And it's Yeah. And it's almost so normal, that we forgotten to be outraged by Yeah, yeah, you're right, absolutely horrifying that that midwives are not allowed to get access to that specialist feeding support, you know, even if they've done some of the basic training, they don't have the opportunity to have the more specialised training. And actually, you know, what helping people to latch on really shouldn't be specialised training. That should be pretty basic. And there should also be a lactation consultant on staff the whole time, they should be, you know, full time plus overnights and you know, this is a separate rant, I don't mean to think it should be extra, it should be absolutely normal, and you were let down. And I really hope you've got to a place now where you don't blame yourself for that. Because, you know, you weren't in charge of staffing in your hospital and you weren't in charge of training and your hospital? 

Lauren Heeley  07:55

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, it's a learning curve, isn't it? And you don't know what you do in the first few days, you know, as my first child. So it'll be very different for me. And then I have a second if I have a second. So yeah, I think it's, it's a learning curve, like I say, and I've put a complaint in and all that I've done the whole furious mother bit. So yeah, that kind of brought me a bit of peace as well. But you know, it was kind of a common thing. I every every professional I spoke, spoke to throughout the journey, kind of had no idea really, even up to the point of the breast consultant at a hospital kind of said to me, you don't have an infection. And I was like, well explain the pain then why is this happening? Why have I got a giant golf ball in my tip, then, and it was just a bit like, oh, I don't know, it's probably just a cyst. And it just kind of kept going on and on. And I had to obviously have all the tests and a biopsy than the biopsy site got infected. And then I was told I couldn't feed her on that boob and they had to go and panic by a breast pump and all this. So it was it was a very fraught time and just kind of the lack of knowledge in in the whole wide of professional medical community was really stark to me. And shocking, I think. So yeah, I'm a massive advocate of, of getting people more training where they can, I didn't even know a lactation consultant was for for a long time. And I think Instagram really was kind of my sanctuary because I found obviously people like you just saw all you know, the little gifts and the posts and stuff. And you're like, Oh, my God, yes. This is what I needed. This is this should be kind of given to everyone everywhere in the hospital. And you know, if they don't want to breastfeed, that's fine. It's just having that informed choice, rather than just being told by a GP, a male GP who doesn't really know what they're talking about that you just cannot breastfeed. So yeah, I could rant about it all day. 

Emma Pickett  09:38

No, you have every right to so. So it sounds as though what was going on probably is that from the very beginning milk transfer wasn't optimum, possibly for the tongue tie possibly matching issues. So really early on a bit too much milk was being left behind. We know we can never completely empty breasts, but there was a bit too much milk being left behind which developed into bacterial infection. What's shocking about your story? Is that normally what happens is someone goes, okay, there, here's a lump. Let's do the stuff that we do with block ducts. That doesn't work. Let's refer to the breast clinic, because it's probably going to be something like a black to seal, which is accumulation of milk, or it could be an abscess. But you need to get that looked at under ultrasound. Let's aspirate some of that fluid. Let's look at it. So you weren't even getting the fairly basic approach. I mean, you were just someone was going, oh, there's a lump? Oh, I don't know what it is. I mean, to move straight to a biopsy. It's really interesting that there's that. 

Lauren Heeley  10:31

Yeah. Yeah, I don't I think he just panicked because I'd been going to GP kind of like begging him for help. And he kind of just said, Right. To be fair, you know, it was very quick. They went in and said, there's a lump he was right. Let's get you referred to the cancer ward, which is obviously terrifying to hear. But you know, very fast. It was the next day. So fair play to them. Yeah, that's good. And yeah, like you say, they kind of did the scan and said, Yes, this could be this. But, you know, we need to kind of get the biopsy back. And then that came back, obviously, benign, thank God. And then we did the whole aspiration thing, and they didn't get it all. So then they were like, we're gonna have to do it again. And then it got to the point where they were like, we might have to do this every six weeks, which I was just like, Oh, God, this could have all been prevented, really, if you'd have just given me the right antibiotics. And I think that was another factor. They just didn't know how to treat me. And it got to the point where I was desperately emailing people all over the world, I kind of contacted a breastfeeding specialist in Canada...

Emma Pickett  11:27

Was that Jack Newman? Actually a male breastfeeding expert in Canada, Dr Jack Newman's the top of that list. 

Lauren Heeley  11:34

Yeah. He was very kind and replied, but we didn't go down the route that he suggested. And yeah, that was fine. So it did actually work in the end what we did here, so yeah, it just took six months for me to get to that point. And obviously, that's a long time to not know what's going on. And to feel like you're feeling a little bit and, you know, wondering if your baby's getting enough milk and stressing about all that. And yeah, it was, it was a lot to deal with as a new mom. You're in pain for all that time. That whole time. Yeah, majority the time I couldn't wear clothes. So I spent a lot of it in the house. Obviously, that's not good for your mental health. You're just kind of frustrated and angry. And just not knowing or having anyone that you feel like you could trust should know what was wrong with you. And kind of sat there on Google, you know, all hours of the day, Googling your symptoms constantly on Mumsnet trying to find answers on that anywhere. And there was just nothing. There was no kind of suggestion or even hint that it could be a staff a infection, which is what it turned out to be. And it got to the point where you know, I've been put in touch with a really useful lady called Rachel, who was an hour's drive away. So I kind of drove over there at last minute notice. And she kind of said it could be this I think you need to get your nipples swapped, just to test for infection. And I was like that makes a lot of sense. Why isn't no one suggested that before?

Emma Pickett  12:52

Yeah. So so you'd already had Thrush treatment by this point. They'd been going down that road? That's right. So so Staph aureus infection. So Staph aureus is a type of bacteria. There's the nasty form that's kind of but antibiotic antibiotic resistant, which I'm hoping you weren't you didn't have but the standard nice staff a is the most common cause of mastitis it is, is the bacteria that often does do nasty things in breast tissue and can develop into mastitis. But as you said, if you had had antibiotics really early on, potentially that wouldn't have developed into an abscess. So at the biggest point it was golf ball sized, is that right? 

Lauren Heeley  13:29

That is probably quite an exaggeration. To be fair, it was it was probably the size of a pea. I think that was probably the biggest it got but even that's quite worrying to find and you move so yeah, it was yeah, it was a really weird and stressful time. And obviously when you're a new mum and sleep deprivation throws, it's not what you need to be dealing with. So yeah, so 

Emma Pickett  13:51

So an abscess for anyone who doesn't know is a is a walled off pocket pocket of pest. So you can't at the point of an abscess, you can't necessarily just throw antibiotics at it because the actual pocket of pus isn't full of blood vessels, it's not necessarily going to respond to antibiotics in the same way. So we do go down the road of needle aspiration, which you're talking about. And in the UK, often that will happen more than once. How many times did you have needle aspiration?

Lauren Heeley  14:14

I had it twice in the end, and then in the second time seem to clear it. Thank God.

Emma Pickett  14:18

Oh, thank goodness for that. And in some cases when it's larger, people actually have to have an incision and sometimes even have a drain fitted.

Lauren Heeley  14:26

Yeah, that was what I was worried about, because I'd read all kinds of horror stories. 

Emma Pickett  14:31

Yeah, that doesn't look great. And sometimes the psychology of how it looks is the worst at worst aspect of having a  drain. 

Lauren Heeley  14:36

That's not sexy.

Emma Pickett  14:40

You know what, let's face it, right? It probably is for somebody. 

Emma Pickett  14:42

Yeah, that's true. 

Lauren Heeley  14:43

That's the worry is the Fetish out there somewhere who were into breast abscesses. Should we should we not examine that today? Yeah. So how old was your daughter when you finally got everything resolved? And you were,

Lauren Heeley  14:55

I'd say about six months, six months old. 

Emma Pickett  14:58

Okay. Well, Wow. So you are obviously a very determined woman. And even when people were saying to us stop breastfeeding, you were thinking No, screw you. I'm kind of keep keep going. Yeah. What was it that led that gave you that sort of determination do you think?

Lauren Heeley  15:14

I think partly because I'd always wanted to breastfeed, you know, you read up when you're pregnant about all the benefits, and you're like, Yeah, that makes total sense. I'm probably a quite communist at heart and down with the formula feeding companies capitalist companies and all not go down that route. And, and also the fact that someone was telling me, I can't do it, it just felt like well explain to me why at least, and not having an answer to that kind of made me think, well, you don't know what you're talking about. So I'm going to carry on. And to be fair to them, I think it did come from a place of kindness. I think they kind of felt like I needed permission to stop. So phrasing stop being a hero didn't go down very well. But um, yeah, I think he kind of felt like he needed to say it's okay. And you don't have to force yourself to do this. But to me, that was actually the worst thing he could have said, and I wasn't looking for permission to stop. I was looking for the way to carry on. So not having those answers actually made it a lot worse and being told that you just can't breastfeed. I would just wasn't going to accept that basically. So. So yeah.

Emma Pickett  16:17

You're I mean, you're right, that that giving permission to stop thing is right, for some people. Yeah, absolutely. Some people do need that. But I think he probably didn't know how to read the situation well enough to show where you were coming from. Perhaps he should have asked you a bit more about your goals.

Lauren Heeley  16:33

Yeah. For sure. When he kind of said, Oh, I've got this magic cream. And I thought, Oh, my God, finally. And then he said it's called Lansino. 

Emma Pickett  16:41

no. This is the woman who spent like 400 hours googling scientific papers and on Mumsnet...

Lauren Heeley  16:49

wow, right. Okay. Well, I've been using that for six weeks, and it's done nothing. So thank you.

Emma Pickett  16:54

Yeah. Well, I'm really glad that you came through that. And I hope you can look back on that time, with pride that you did push through and, you know, get the answers you needed. And, you know, it's very easy to bash individual medical practitioners. But yeah, and I know, from what you've said, as well, it's not the fault of an individual. It's the fault of a system that does absolutely doesn't prioritise, lactation support, that doesn't give GPs training and lactation. That means that I get pulled down the wrong road. 

Lauren Heeley  17:24

Yeah, I mean, I just find it incredible that a breastfeeding module at medical school is optional. And you know, how many people especially men are going to take that up. And so you can kind of understand it,

Emma Pickett  17:35

often not even an offer. So So Chris van Tulleken once about his, I think he said he had an hour at medical school, and there was a sort of general lecture about lactation. And, you know, not many people were paying attention. And that, you know, there's definitely cases where people just getting nothing at all. 

Lauren Heeley  17:51

So, yeah, yes. It's horrifying, really, because, you know, it's half the population, it's a matter of life and death. In some cases, it's

Emma Pickett  17:58

just, well, it's the whole population. We're all babies. Well, you know, you'd think that is just insane. Absolutely. But, yeah,

Lauren Heeley  18:07

I think my experience has made me actually quite angry about I'm quite militant about, yeah,

Emma Pickett  18:12

well, we need the militant communists and what we need in the system, so glad that you exist. And actually, you know, when we come on to talk about your job, I think that's given you a sort of passion. Obviously, you can't have everything, every single storyline based around lactation. But when you sort of get when you can get it in, and when you can sort of be aware of its presence. And, you know, television, television is a place where breastfeeding stories are seen by so many. And when I've been preparing for this episode, I asked some people on Instagram about their experiences of seeing television, and breastfeeding. And what was so interesting is that people saw just a clip decades before and it stayed with them. So just one little storyline on on. Do you go home so popular? So we go. I remember the movie Tootsie when they don't call them soap operas, so I don't know if you're comfortable. I said drama series on mine. Yeah, just just in case you don't say soap opera

Lauren Heeley  19:02

We say soap, or continuing drama

Emma Pickett  19:06

So when you see one scene, you know, one episode, which refers to breastfeeding in a positive light just once, you know, 10 years later, when you have your kid that that's going to be somewhere in your memory, especially in the UK, where we don't see breastfeeding out about very often. And there are some parts of England where breastfeeding rates are really low, and you might not see it in public at all. TV really matters. And, you know, thank you for joining me today to also talk about TV series and representations of breastfeeding and TV. I have spent a disgusting amount of time watching television last 30 years I'm I am definitely a TV addict. And obviously you've got your your script editor hat on as well, which makes you super useful in this context. Should we talk about some representations of breastfeeding on television? Let's start with friends is that's that the episode of the podcast is an homage to so there's two elements of breastfeeding and friends. There's Carol's breastfeeding so that's Ross's ex wife's breastfeeding, and then there's Rachel's breastfeeding, which obviously happens much later on in the series. So the one with the breast milk, we've got a whole episode talking about it, which is Season Two. Episode Two, is when Carol and Susan come to visit, they bring Ben and they breastfeed in front of everybody. And Chandler and Joe are a little bit uncomfortable. So are you up doing a bit of drama here? 

Lauren Heeley  20:23

Yeah, let's do it.

Emma Pickett  20:24

I think we should. I'm not saying we shouldn't have to do our best American accent. So I think I think so. I think one of us needs to be Ross and Carol and one of us needs to be Joey and Chandler Who do you fancy?

Lauren Heeley  20:36

I'm and I'll always go Joey and Chandler. 

Emma Pickett  20:38

Okay, so I'll do Ross and Carol. Here we go. Okay, so this is an extract from season two episode two friends. I'm not gonna do the American accent. I've just just suddenly failed in my confidence. So okay, here we go. This is this is me doing Ross. When you guys grow up? This is the most natural beautiful thing in the world.

Lauren Heeley  21:00

Joey Yeah, we know. But there's a baby sucking on it.

Emma Pickett  21:04

Ross, this is my son having lunch. Okay, it's gonna happen a lot. So you better get used to it. If you have any problem with it. If you're uncomfortable. Just ask questions. Carol's fine with it. Come on. Chandler.

Lauren Heeley  21:16

Carol. I was just wondering if Joey could ask you a question about breastfeeding. Sure.

Emma Pickett  21:23

Does it hurt? It did it first, but not anymore. Chandler. So how often can you do it? As much as he needs?

Lauren Heeley  21:34

Oh, okay, I got one, I got one. If he blows into one does the other get bigger.

Emma Pickett  21:40

We've got the bit of comedy in there as well. And it is definitely, you know, comedy around the subject of breastfeeding. But one things I like in that little clip is that it's not, we're not laughing at the breastfeeding, which does happen at other comedy series that we'll talk about in a minute. It's we're laughing at their ignorance around the breastfeeding, absolute, Joey and Chandler are the butter the jokes rather than the act of breastfeeding being the butt of the joke. And Carol's breastfeeding relationship is presented as incredibly positively. And Ross says he's proud of it. And you know, Ross is obviously really supportive. And they sort of build up how supportive he is. So later on when he's squeamish about breast milk, it's, that's the kind of contrast and that's where the comedy comes. But I mean, do you remember watching that episode when you were younger? Were you a Friends fan?

Lauren Heeley  22:22

Yes. Oh, yes. So yeah, I think that kind of fed into why I wanted to do it as well. It's just kind of, you know, it's totally normal. As Ross says, it's, you know, if you've probably forgot problem, just ask questions. And it's, it's kind of Carol's response to that. Yeah. Okay. Ask me anything. It's kind of like, okay, yeah. There's nothing weird about that. So why wouldn't you ask questions? And, you know, it's, it's a really important conversation for, you know, men of that age, especially to have, I think, and not be weirded out by it. And I know, the sexualization of it is, is probably the worst thing that you can do. And we'll talk about that in a bit. But yeah, I remember seeing that episode. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, kind of stuck with me. I think that's probably the one that I would mention, when you were mentioning about things that you saw when you were little, I think this friends is definitely the one that I would suggest would be a great one to start with. 

Emma Pickett  23:09

Yeah, yeah. And so that same episode, then we have, I think Carol and Susan have left Ben in Monica's apartment and everyone's looking after Ben and Phoebe gets the breast milk and she says something like breakfast time and get, you know, tests the breast milk on her wrist and then licks her wrist and everyone goes. And there's everyone's grossing out and Rachel and Chandler are grossing out. But Joey also tastes it and isn't remotely bothered. And, you know, even though Ross had been very proud of the breastfeeding and had been incredibly mature when he was talking about the act of breastfeeding, he was also in the group that were a bit squeamish about tasting the milk. Well, I think one of the things I find interesting about that little clip is that both Phoebe and Joey are presented as the people that kind of have the most sort of self confidence about themselves. They're really secure about who they are. Yeah, really secure. They've got they're really secure about their appearances and their, you know, their body image and they're the ones that are completely cool. And, you know, Chandler and Monica and Rachel are the ones that are sort of freaking out a little bit about it and Ross is the one freaking out a bit about it. So then later on. Carol and Susan come home and they talk to Carolyn Susan about what happened. So let's listen to that clip now.

Audio Clip  24:22

Oh, I tasted Jen's milk and Ross freaked out. freaked out. Why do you freak out because it's breast milk. It's gross. My breast milk is gross. This should be fun. No kill. There's nothing wrong with it. I just I just don't think breast milk is for adults. Of course the packaging does appeal to grownups.

Audio Clip  24:51

Ross, you're being silly. I've tried it. It's no big deal. Come on, just taste it. That would be no It doesn't taste bad. Taste kind of sweet sort of like, like what? Cantaloupe juice? Exactly.

Audio Clip  25:18

You've tasted it. You've tasted it? Uh huh. Oh, you've tasted it. You can keep saying it, but it won't stop being true.

Audio Clip  25:39

Give me the bottle, give me the towel. 

Emma Pickett  25:52

So did you notice in that bit there was a bit where Susan had tasted the breast milk? 

Lauren Heeley  25:58

Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  25:59

And there's there's a little dynamic there. I don't know if it's just me being a little bit. I wondered this going on there. Do you think that's the implication?

Lauren Heeley  26:05

I think it's very subtle. But it's definitely there, I think because, you know, it's his acts as partner. I think that's where the issue comes from. And he's kind of like, because it's not a problem for his friends to try the breast milk. He's not kind of like, oh, there's a one upmanship there. It's, it's when when it's someone. Yeah, I completely agree. I think there is a sexual undertone there for sure. Is that Yeah, I should element of it, I think, for sure. 

Emma Pickett  26:31

And I think the way Susan raises her eyebrows as well, there's definitely an element of I've tasted it at the source, right? Yes. Just to let you know. And that pushes him on to kind of want to taste it as well and not have not have, you know, Carol have something over? Sorry, Susan have something over him. Yeah. And then at the very end of the episode, we have the little tag where Ross actually forces himself to finally drink the milk. Now, this isn't necessarily a clip with a lot of sound, because he's sitting there with the breast milk in front of him on the table and little pile of cookies. But let's just let's just listen to the sound of that moment for a second.

Audio Clip  27:05

Emma Pickett  27:36

So one thing I like about that is the audience reaction. So this is recorded in the studio audience on the Warner Brothers lot. I've actually been to this friend's studio. It's just a big box, essentially. That's where they record the episode. And there's not a single person in that audience who's going. I mean, that is it's absolutely a I don't know if that would have been allowed by the stage manager. They might have stopped it if it did happen. But it's, everyone's like, yeah, Ross, you did it. You tasted the breast milk. There's just this like, completely positive message of you know, he's being brave and tasting the breast milk. One thing I also find interesting about that clip is that it starts with that kind of Western cowboy music. Now, I don't know if you remember. But in that same episode, there's the storyline where there's the perfume with the kind of cowboy theme in the in the department store. So there's that. There's that cat, there's that Cowboy Western thing going on? I'm just a bit interested as to why they started that clip with the cowboy music, whether it's something about the masculinity around it.

Lauren Heeley  28:38

I think it's kind of that sense of a map, a Mexican standoff, almost like he's kind of facing down his opponent and, you know, they're about to draw a pistol. And it's overcoming that kind of challenge, isn't it and defeating your enemy I suppose in a western style shootout almost. So I think that...

Emma Pickett  28:55

That's it. So the breast milk is is this cowboy adversary outside the sheriff's office? That is definitely 

Lauren Heeley  29:01

Tumbleweed. 

Emma Pickett  29:02

Yeah, and, and Ross wins in the end. And then so then later on in Friends, we have obviously, Rachel Getting pregnant and Rachel giving birth. And I think one of the things that's that you see repeatedly in American series is that breastfeeding is the default for American characters. Yeah, it is incredibly rare. To see somebody in an American series formula feeding from birth, there is an assumption that a main character is going to be breastfeeding and then and then Rachel's really wanting to breastfeed. She really wants to make it work and there's comedy again. So let's just let's just listen to this clip and then we'll we'll remind ourselves what's going on.

Audio Clip  29:40

Hi Emma. Why do you think she will take my breast it's all right, honey, take some babies while to get it but don't worry, it will happen.

Audio Clip  29:50

Yowsa! It's ok sweetie, you can do it just open up and put it in your mouth. Lord! I'm sorry, what were you saying? Yeah, look, I think that oh, she's pulling away again. Do you think my nipples are too big for her mouth? 

Audio Clip  30:16

She looks scared. Doesn't she look scared? You know, I don't really know. Why don't we try massaging the breast to stimulate the flow?

Audio Clip  30:25

Are you kidding me? Its so frustrating, why doesn't she want my breasts? I don't know, maybe she's crazy!

Emma Pickett  30:37

So in that clip, then we've got Joey, uncomfortable, obviously not wanting to look at the breastfeeding. So he's forgotten all the stuff about Carol all the stuff. Obviously, all those lessons and season two have completely forgotten. We've got to have his discomfort as part of the comedy. But I actually liked that Rachel is really wanting to breastfeed. I mean, what do you kind of feel when you look at that scene?

Lauren Heeley  30:58

Yeah, no, I think it's great. I think there's also, I don't know if there's an element cuz obviously, at that point, Joe is in love with Rachel. So I think that's probably kind of adding to his discomfort because he's kind of trying not to look, I suppose at this woman's boobs, because the chances are, so I think that's probably part where the writers were trying to go with it, rather than kind of saying anything about feeding and I was like, you say, Rachel's reaction is very much like, this has to happen, this is what should happen, and I want to do it, which is a really positive message. So yeah, I think, you know, obviously, the nurse or the midwife kind of getting in there as well. There's kind of a layer of potential male fantasy, I suppose. Because it's like another woman feeling another woman's breasts as well. So I don't know if that was a layer that they wanted to add intentionally or not. But yeah, it's kind of like the awkwardness. The comedy is in Joey, you're laughing at Joey's reaction rather than like, say, the breastfeeding itself that's presented as very normal and natural, which is, which is great. 

Emma Pickett  31:54

Yeah, the the woman touching a woman thing is definitely a theme and Joey's fantasies. He's quite into the lesbian. Yeah, see thing that's a bit of comedy that comes up quite regularly. So you're right, that that could definitely be an element here. lactation consultants don't come off brilliantly well, any American series and I think that's partly because they don't have time I've sort of I've sort of forgiven some of my favourite series for being rubbish at presenting midwives and, and, you know, like nurses and lactation consultants, because they, they don't have time to ask for consent, which is certainly what we'd want to do before we grab someone's breasts and they obviously sort of rushed through the process of supporting someone rather than kind of really asking questions and investigating. So this nurse is particularly kind of speedy and how she kind of moves through the stages but I guess we have to accept that they don't have the time yet present a full 30 minute consultation. I will have to forgive that and actually one of my other really favourite series the office the American office, which I absolutely love I resisted watching it for years because I love the UK office and I was like I was like no I can't I mean literally decades I've got got watch it and then it was just before locked down I thought no I'm gonna give it a go and absolutely loved it just accepted it was completely different. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely loved it. And then we've got in season six Pam giving birth and there's again we've got nipple refusal and breast refusal as a plot point just as we did with Rachel so she's really struggling to latch on she's really finding it difficult to get baby to attach and there's a bit of comedy in the middle of the night where baby attaches and anyway let's let's listen to this clip and we'll see what happens 

Audio Clip  33:28

Jim she latched. Amazing! I didn't even have to do the C thing. That's awesome! Oh, we're doing it That's great. We're really parents now.

Audio Clip  33:51

She's gorgeous. Can I hold her? She was a little fussy earlier but she's totally quiet now. Here, let me just burp her. I don't want her to spit up on you. Come here sweetie Oh my god. Wrong baby!

Emma Pickett  34:16

So as you heard it's the wrong baby. She gets the baby. She's like really relieved. It's like babies latched. And then she realised it's wrong baby, wrong baby, wrong baby. They put it back in the cart. And it's you know, oh dear. And then the real mother wakes up and she's like, Oh, baby, there's someone to feed. And then that same episode, we've got her lactation consultant coming to visit her, which you probably know is played by her real life has her fiance at the time. So there was no discomfort with him getting close and potentially touching breasts and things which is a great, great choice because yeah, the comedy comes from Jim's struggling with how close that lactation consultant is. Again, we don't have consent. We're not asking for consent to touch we'll do Deep Breath we'll allow the fact that that lactation consultants and have time to go through all that.

Lauren Heeley  35:04

Yeah. Well, I did think on that in that clip though he's very hands on, isn't it? And he never kind of says is this okay? 

Emma Pickett  35:09

So exactly and real life, you absolutely would say is this okay? And, you know, he obviously could have stayed in the room a bit longer as well he had to kind of get out again. So this this, you know, in comedy, we definitely have to keep things short. I've come to accept that. But but one of the nice things about the office representation one of my favourite bits is how sort of Pam's breastfeeding story ends so let's listen to that little clip now.

Audio Clip  35:36

You want to eat? Let's try eating. It's just you and me. Yeah! Oh yeah, look at that! There we go. Five tickets on the windshield. Hey, we got it! Did you use my move? I used a variation of your move. 

Emma Pickett  36:25

So there's something really magic about how she's on the bench. And she's been so desperate to get breastfeeding to happen and, and Jim's going to get the car. And finally, baby latches on. And you can't necessarily hear it because it's quite visual. But But Jen comes back. And she's just got this look of such pride on her face. When she realises that babies finally latched. It's just really magic. And I just love how, in a TV comedy series, The Office is really good at this. They always have moments for the drama and the serious things and the real emotions and the real feelings. But you really see her relief. And at that point, the actress hadn't had a kid. And you know what, that wasn't her personal experience. But, you know, Jenna Fisher did such a good job of representing that joy that comes from breastfeeding goals being met. 

Lauren Heeley  37:10

Absolutely. It's kind of a relief and the joy. And yeah, I mean, I know you can't see it on the podcast. But on that clip, she's also having to wear the kind of cover all as well, which I thought was an interesting detail. I don't know how prevalent that is in America. But yeah, I just thought Oh, get it all out.

Emma Pickett  37:29

I think they're I think covers are generally more common. Yeah, I think so they did have the scene in her hospital room where she wasn't using a cover. Yes. I'm guessing that there's something I mean, she obviously wasn't lactating at the time herself. I mean, it could be that it's just hard to fake breastfeeding. 

Lauren Heeley  37:43

Yes. Yeah. It's a very good point. 

Emma Pickett  37:46

The cover on is culturally appropriate for them. But also probably easier to pretend someone's breastfeeding. 

Lauren Heeley  37:53

Yes. Very true. I was just worried about the message it might send about oh, no, you're right. You're right TV on you're completely right. It's so much easier from a production point of view. Yeah,

Emma Pickett  38:02

no. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing about breastfeeding, breastfeeding covers, you know, I could do a whole other podcast episode on that. I think, you know, everyone has obviously has the right to do whatever, they feel comfortable. But we definitely should never feel we have to do that. Yes, for sure. That is for sure. One of my favourite sitcoms, one of my daughter's favourite sitcoms is Modern Family. And in that series, there's two elements to breastfeeding being presented. So we've got Gloria having a baby. And she's super confident, and she's walking around breastfeeding, and they they do pixel out her breastfeeding. But again, I think that may be a production quality point of view, but she's answering the door and it's no big deal. And it's and Phil is struggling because he fancies Gloria and that's the same element that we have with Joey and Rachel, and that that present presentation is very positive. And then later, at the very end of the series, Haley gives birth to twins, and it's not such a positive message around that. So it's slightly presented that Haley's being a bit kind of pie in the sky wanting to breastfeed twins and, and not being realistic and, and Claire, her mom is sort of trying to sneak in formula when Haley's not around. I mean, literally, like Haley's going off and she's like trying to give the babies bottles when Haley's literally not in the room and their head. He comes back and she's really cross. But it's sort of presented as you know, of course she should give formula she's daft to want to breastfeed twins and wow. And we certainly know that breastfeeding twins is absolutely possible. Just yeah, visit Catherine Stag's Facebook group - Feeding twins and triplets UK. But then I can't work out whether we're meant to think that Claire's being unreasonable and actually Hailey's, you know, able to have those goals and but I don't think we're quite there. I think actually, yeah, it is clear. Yeah, I think we are it has been presented that perhaps Haley's being a bit silly and and just like she's got city books that tell her to do daft hippie things she's wanting to breastfeed twins is slightly in that camp as well. So not universally positive. 

Emma Pickett  38:03

Now one of my faves, favourite TV representations of breastfeeding and this is a real confession as to the quality of television a watch is no different than Netflix series Sex/life. How you say that sex life sex, I just say forward slash life. Yeah. So, so that, you know series is pretty pornographic in many ways. But but also I love the way breastfeeding is represented in this series. It is really represented positively and, and almost the very first scene when we meet our main character, Billy, we actually see her breastfeeding immediately and sort of, you know, breastfeeding her baby girl in bed and, and we never forget she's lactating often. But I don't think it's sleazy. 

Lauren Heeley  40:53

No, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because you the show, obviously, the premise is so sexualized and it's all about the erotic nature of it, you know, it's very sexualized, obviously, but it kind of compartmentalises the breastfeed and doesn't sexualize the breastfeeding in a show that's all about tits. It's It's incredible that they've managed to tread that line, I think between tipping over into making breastfeeding part of the Fetish almost of, of their relationship and the stimulus and the excitement of it, it's just very much. This is what happens when you're lactating. And when you get turned on, you might sweat a little bit here and there. And you might leak in a train station and an old woman has to come and tell you that you need to cover up type of thing.

Emma Pickett  41:29

Oh actually, see I love that bit because the old lady comes up to her and says, Oh, honey, you're leaking. And then she says we've all been there. Yeah. It was actually the younger woman that judged when she was hanged, expressing in the sink in the toilet. But the older one was like we've all been there honey and and yeah, you're right. They managed to compartmentalise it, but not in a negative way. This belly also has a libido while she's breastfeeding, she's think she's thinking about sex. She wants to resume a sexual relationship with her husband. And it's just just part of her life. And there's little tiny details like, you know, when a husband says, Let's go on a date, he says, go pump. Yeah, go pump. Like he knows that to get ready for a date. It's not just about the mascara and the fancy dress. He says, you know, go and get put go pump get ready. You know, they talk about when she does have to express milk into the sink. You know, this is liquid gold here that I'm wasting. This is worse for me than it is for you, young lady judging me for pumping.

Lauren Heeley  42:22

Exactly that whoever invented the phrase, don't cry over spilt milk didn't breastfeed. 

Emma Pickett  42:26

Yep. And that she she's represented pumping realistically, and she's got your mother pumping bar on and, you know, there was there was one scene where they tried to have sex in a car and there's leaking and it's, that's a bit daft. And that's kind of comedy purposes. But other than that, it's incredibly positive. And I'm quite impressed by how that that is represented. And I just like, I like the fact that she's allowed to be sexual while she's lactating, which is often very much not allowed. 

Lauren Heeley  42:51

Yeah, I totally agree. I do worry that we kind of suggest that lactating woman is as horny as Billy is, often it's the opposite. But you know, no, you're right.

Emma Pickett  43:02

Yeah, we do want to make sure that people understand it's super normal to not have the level of libido that Billy does have. Having said that, you know, when there are there is a small minority of women who do get the libido back and they, they worry that they're not normal, because they you know, everyone else is saying, Oh, I didn't feel like I was sexual, and I didn't have a libido and I was like, Don't worry, that's totally normal. And the small minority that feel even more sexual or even panics that there's something wrong with it. So so the beliefs are out there, not necessarily quite as exciting.

Lauren Heeley  43:31

Well, I'm jealous of those women!

Emma Pickett  43:36

Yeah, so thumbs up for Sex/life. I don't think it's necessarily going to be something I'll share with my teenage daughter just yet, but it's got lots of things. So another series that has a positive moment around breastfeeding. So Janelle Metherall, who's her lactation consultant, she reminded me of this when I asked on Instagram if people had that TV moments. This is from Peep Show. I don't know if you've watched Peep Show but there's a moment where they run out of milk and they're making a cup of tea and and this this is what happens at that moment.

Audio Clip  44:09

Oh, no milk, not black tea. I'm not some kind of monster. Hello! The human cow. Why not? Luxury milk lady milk, because you deserve it. Oh, come on. Look at this. You have to come and look at this now. Hold on. I didn't think we had any milk. No, we didn't know we definitely don't because I couldn't have any Sultana Bran this morning, but there's no milk in the fridge. Except Oh Mark relax, This is Sophie's milk, isn't it? Think of it as Lady milk from the human cow Jeremy? It's it's one step away from cannibalism. All right, so it's weird to drink milk from someone you know, but to drink milk from another species. Some cow you've never met. That's fine. Is it? Yes. Yes. It bloody well is well Suit yourself. Luxury milk.

Emma Pickett  45:04

So what did you feel about that clip?

Lauren Heeley  45:07

Well, I mean, marks reactions. It is funny, isn't it? Because it is, I think Jeremy makes a very valid point that this is normal, because it's actually really kind of weird that we drink from a different species. Like, when you really think about that, and all the kinds of processing and hormones that go into that. It's just, it's mad that that's normal. But something from your own species is seem to be weird, and just cringe inducing almost, and it you know, like, can't get his head around the idea that that would be fine. And I don't know, I kind of wanted them to go a bit further. And having realised it actually tastes quite nice.

Emma Pickett  45:43

Actually, it's interesting, because when Janelle shared that clip, she said, Oh, I remembered seeing this when I was much younger, and then she went off and found it. And then she came back and said, Oh, it's a lot shorter than I remember. It was almost like her imagination had filled in all those gaps. And as far as she was concerned, it was this long, epic kind of monologue about the value of breast milk. It's just a couple of quick clips. And it is funny how our memories sort of fill in the gaps. 

Emma Pickett  46:08

So someone else on Instagram called Joanna said, you know, when she was really young and early teenager, she watched this series, called A Dark Adapted Eye I'd never even heard of it. So it's kind of murder detective series. And so from 1994. So this really shows how stuff sticks in your brain that you watch. So she watched this clip, and the actress, Celia Imrie is breastfeeding in this clip, and it's not a major part of the plot point. But what's significant about it is that she's so chilled. She's so full of oxytocin. She's so relaxed, the other characters come in and she's there breastfeeding in bed. There's, you know, she's really positive. And that obviously really hit with with Joanna. So let's just hear that little tiny clip of that. Now, I don't know how much you'll be able to pick up without the visuals, but I think you'll hear how relaxed Celia's character is about the breastfeeding.

Audio Clip  47:25

Come in! I'm afraid lunch is taking a little longer than usual isn't it Jamie darling.

Audio Clip  47:31

You're not quite ready for your big day. Well, we'll wait downstairs, shall we? Perhaps the girls can help prepare tea. Yes, but don't they want to see the baby first? Isn't he beautiful? Lovely. Oh isn't he  gorgeous Vera? He smells. I can't describe it. But it's marvellous... 

Emma Pickett  48:02

In that clip, there's she's got to be breastfeeding in real life. It must be that you can't I don't think you can fake that. So I'm guessing the actress was pregnant at the time. And if I would, if I was more famous, I would have invited Celia Imrie to come on to the world onto the episode and talk about her breastfeeding experiences filming that episode,

Lauren Heeley  48:19

because obviously in I've seen my experience of it and TV is you kind of shoot someone that is lactating. And you know, it's probably their baby, their feeding, and then you kind of cut out the head from the top and then you kind of cut to a wide and you cheat it a bit. But but that was you know, the head was very much in sharp. So it was definitely her so yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? 

Emma Pickett  48:39

Yeah. And I think probably because she was so glowing and positive. That's what struck with Joanna and really, as a young teenager really stayed in her mind, which is great. Yeah, brilliant. And they're obviously some less positive representations of breastfeeding. 

Emma Pickett  48:52

So Game of Thrones is the really grim one. Yeah, that really negative relationship which comes from the book and is also represented in the series as well. And so I was looking for a clip where you could hear the audio of the fact that breastfeeding and you can't really hear it because it's just something that happens visually. But the scene where we first meet these two characters, so Robin Aaron, am I saying yeah, so he's what eight or nine when he's breastfeeding and, and he's presented as being a really toxic little bloke, a bit of a psychopath. He wants to you know, chuck people down this big hole that will definitely fall into their death and, and it's almost like her breastfeeding him is represented as a sort of unpleasant over indulgent. There's just not a great dynamic in that at all.

Lauren Heeley  49:38

No, is obviously very infantilized by his mother, which is obviously why they're still feeding but it just, it makes me laugh that you know, in a show that has incest and rape has standard, the look of horror that passes between the people in the room that are like, Oh, God, they're breastfeeding. That's like the worst thing ever.

Emma Pickett  49:55

Oh my god, you're so right. So Tyron Lannisters his name? Yeah. My brother and sister are having a sexual relationship, but it's the breastfeeding that's the worst bit.

Lauren Heeley  50:06

Incest fine - breastfeeding, oh, that's weird.

Emma Pickett  50:09

Yeah. And actually, when you talk about Game of Thrones, that's the bit that is the trickiest bit for many people. 

Lauren Heeley  50:13

Yeah. Yeah, yes. Certainly an image isn't it? Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  50:16

And then, and then there's one that makes me super sad is Sex in the City. So Sex in the City is a series that I like lots of young women. You know, I watched every single episode, I've even seen the daft films, I'm absolutely there with it. And the two representations of breastfeeding are both a little bit questionable. So in season one, we've got this episode called the baby shower. And there are lots of women who are sort of toxically using their children as sort of spouse substitutes, and that's represented as horrible or negative. And then there's this awful bit we're carrying around to come out of the baby shower and sort of sit on the step outside the house. And Carrie says, There's a woman in there breastfeeding a child who can choose steak. And Miranda says, you know how I feel about it? If you can ask for it. You're probably too old to have it, like sod off Miranda. 

Lauren Heeley  51:07

Yeah, I feel like that's stuck with people as well. I mean, someone said it to me the other day, I feel like if they can ask for it, and the too old for it, and I was like, Excuse me. You know, it was such a popular show. And I think, you know, I don't know if you've seen the reboot, it's, there are a few problems. It's quite problematic when you look back as well on the original so. So yeah, I'm not massively surprised. But yeah, it is disappointing. And that kind of undermines the benefits of toddler breastfeeding and beyond is, yeah, it's quite a shame that such a popular show would kind of demonise that.

Emma Pickett  51:38

Yeah. And there was absolutely zero wiggle room in that. I mean, they were just so adamant. And actually, you know, as we both know, newborns can ask for it. So you know, what's the definition of asking for? And then Miranda? Season Five has her own baby Ashley. In that same episode, Carrie is actually pregnant and desperate trying to hide the fact she's pregnant. Ironically, the actress who plays Cara, but the way that Miranda's breastfeeding is represented in the way her breasts are represented is not comfortable. And there's lots of close ups of Miranda's large breasts and Carrie kind of being grossed out by them and sort of talking about Hey, sweetie, they're looking right at me. And I'm gonna have to find some sort of trauma counselling not funny. Not funny. Yes, cringe. Yeah, super cringe. And then there's this is awful. But where Miranda is really distressed about the fact she can't concentrate and she can't. She's not distressed about the fact that breastfeeding is difficult. She's distressed about the fact that she can't hold a conversation and concentrate. She finally gets Brady latched on. And Carrie says I'm gonna leave you now. Because you're a mother. I'm off now. Let's not have this conversation. Don't worry. We're gonna I'm just gonna leave you at this really super weird abrupt moment. Yeah. It's probably because the scene has to end because it's TV and yeah, the scene has to be X number of minutes. And then it's American half hour, etc. But it's there's something really unpleasant about the way the scene ends. It's like, yeah, oh, you know, we can't have this conversation. And you're a mother now and you're not the same person and I am going to just leave you. 

Lauren Heeley  53:04

Yeah, exactly. It kind of completely undermines our friendship, a whole friendship as well. It's quite tragic. You know, this woman has obviously made a decision and then our friend can't support it and just thinks it's weird. Which is bad.

Emma Pickett  53:19

Bad is the word for sure. Yeah. And then probably my least favourite representation of breastfeeding on every television programme. Yeah, let's let's hear that clip before I end to go into full rant. 

Audio Clip  53:33

Tea anybody? My wife Kelly. Nice to finally meet you. What can I get everyone? I'll begin with a sandwich. Same for me, please. Thank you. You're gonna have anything Harvey? Bitty. Bitty. You absolutely sure you don't mind us staying for the whole week? Oh, don't be silly. It'll be a pleasure having you here. Want Bitty. Now come on now. You've had quite enough bitty in one day. Want bitty. Oh, all right then. What do you recommend we do while we're here? 

Emma Pickett  54:29

Okay, so that was Little Britain. Deep breaths. So David Walliams is playing a middle class English bloke in his 30s he's still breastfeeding. I am so thankful for the fact I did not see these episodes when they first went out. But even though I didn't the negative ripples from these sketches still hit me. This was one character one sketch in multiple sketch show. But even today, even that hasn't aired for such a long time and it's probably not going to be aired again because the question about it. I get mothers even today, he was still mentioning it who still get people still use the word bitty to them when they're breastfeeding, their toddlers, people are still talking about it in terms of preschoolers. And then the mum who's still breastfeeding is represented as sort of sensible and tweed wearing, and she's oblivious as to why anyone else would be uncomfortable. It's really been used historically, this clip as ammo for anyone who's criticising someone breastfeeding beyond infancy. And it just really gets my goat. Did you? Did you watch them at the time when they went down?

Lauren Heeley  55:28

Yeah, I mean, I was very young. So I probably shouldn't have watched this. But yeah, I did see it. And you're right, you know, but it was a it was a source of fun. I remember people saying it, you know, around me at the time, and it was just it was hahaha, but obviously now you're a mother and you're breastfeed, and it's actually really damaging, and not helpful at all in the discourse of feeding beyond infancy. And, yeah, I mean, like I said, there's a lot of problems with with the series as a whole, but, but yeah, it just makes you cringe. And it's, yeah, we all know how bad that is.

Emma Pickett  56:00

Yeah, yeah. And I don't think it would be on an American series. I think it's, there's something about the British discomfort around breastfeeding that meant that that was...

Lauren Heeley  56:08

Yeah, I found it interesting that they made her middle, like upper middle class, I think it's almost that kind of infantilization of, you know, the fetishes because I think a lot of this is off on a tangent. But I think a lot of it is these people like to be treated as children. And obviously, we've got the, at the end of the clip, there's the him being changed in wearing a nappy style and all that. And it's, it just ties into that upper middle class thing of wanting to be spanked or kind of feeling like, I need to be dominated by a woman. I don't know. I think that there's a class division there, I think as well. I think there's a subtle, yeah, comment on that.

Emma Pickett  56:43

Yeah, the kinky Etonian MP. Yeah. It's, it's just deeply unpleasant. And the fact that, you know, dozens and dozens of people went into making that clip, and no point did anyone, nudge anybody or question it? Or? You know, I'm sure I'm sure. Today, if you asked, you know, they wouldn't they wouldn't. They wouldn't. Probably wouldn't have been on it. But also, I don't think they understand what we're talking about. They wouldn't dead. They say it's a joke. What are you talking about? But when you live in a world where there's no representation of older children, breastfeeding, that is literally all you have to go on? Of course, it's going to be used as ammunition, yes. Used as ammunition by partners against partners and parents against their own children who are parenting it's, it's really been toxic for a long, long time. And yuck, yuck. Yeah, I'm quite glad it's disappearing. And I'm not staying in the sort of canon of comedy that we're all going to be talking about and decades to come.

Lauren Heeley  57:38

Yeah. It seems to be getting a bit of a backlash as well now, isn't it? So? You know, it should have had a backlash at the time. But now it's fine. Again, it's come up and I suppose. 

Emma Pickett  57:46

Yeah. Do you have any other TV programmes that we haven't talked about that kind of, you'd stick in your mind when we think about breastfeeding? 

Lauren Heeley  57:52

One of them I wanted to mention was Maternal, and it kind of follows the story of three women that work in the health service, they're all nurses or doctors, and they're all returning from maternity leave. The representation of breastfeeding in that is really interesting and good. And you kind of get them you know, what the return to work lecture. And you know, this one woman's just there with like, an LV pump, and she just kind of whips it out. And and yeah, I mean, there's a big comment on that, I think, the main characters played by the leader that was just meander in bendy light backups. So that's a little side note. But yeah, it's there's a lot of comments on patriarchy, and the the woman who's her senior, and she kind of doesn't get why she's still breastfeeding. And she's like, I told you, you know, you don't need to, you know, he's he's one now why are you still carrying on? And I was like, wow, that is probably conversations that happen in hospitals as well. And they're, you know, meant to be medically trained and understand the benefits of breastfeeding. So, so yeah, I think it was also written by someone that worked in that field. So they obviously have first hand experience potentially of that as well. So yeah, I just thought that was a really kind of eye opener of of these conversations that probably do happen in hospitals. So if you know if the doctors aren't getting the support, then what chance do we have really?

Emma Pickett  59:06

Yeah, no, that is that is for sure. So Maternal, that's the drama series. 

Lauren Heeley  59:10

Yes, ITV. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  59:12

 Okay. Okay. Let's talk about soaps. So over the years, we've definitely had a little bit of breastfeeding here and there, but I don't remember particularly positive storylines. Tell me what your memories are of soap operas and breastfeeding. 

Lauren Heeley  59:24

Well, I was a massive Corrie fan growing up. So I remember vaguely when Maria had a baby. And she like I think it was Audrey Roberts was saying I will just give her a bottle. Just give her a bottle. So that's always stuck with me. And I didn't really have an opinion on it on the time because I've quite young but but really, yeah, like you say, that's probably the I think the thing with soap is you have to reflect everyone's experience. And you know, there's never going to be a right answer. It's obviously encompassing everyone's experience and bringing that into people's living rooms. So you can't just you can't go hardcore with one line, obviously. And there are people that think why you breastfeed Don't just give them a bottle. So that's fine. But I think, you know, the biggest thing that we have to do as soap is kind of normalise it and not suggest that it's a weird thing, or it's an outlandish thing. And just kind of subtly peppering in scenes, you know, where there's a woman breastfeeding in the background of a cafe set or something like that. I think that's kind of what I would like to see in it. And I know that, you know, obviously, my soap's quite good at that.

Emma Pickett  1:00:25

So tell us a bit about your job Who who are you working for?

Lauren Heeley  1:00:28

The big reveal? So I work on Emmerdale. I am the senior script editor for Emmerdale. So I've been there for nearly 10 years now. And so, yeah, obviously, it's important, it's an important job. It's something we have to get right. And obviously, I'm very passionate about it. So I think I've probably driven everyone mob there about, you know, getting the storylines in to start with and also normalising breastfeeding, etc. And we have a fantastic research department, obviously, we get everything checked by outside contacts, and people that know what they're talking about. But they've kind of given me a blue badge. So anytime we have a breastfeeding thing in there, they're like, Lauren, can you just check this? So yeah, I'm very on it and they're aware of.

Emma Pickett  1:01:13

So give us an example of a reference you've been able to get in.

Lauren Heeley  1:01:17

So we had a storyline quite recently, where we had a lady that was breastfeeding, and she was quite young. And she found a lump in her. I mean, it was basically my story. She found a lump in her breast, because she was breastfeed and and it was kind of like, Yeah, this is good, because you know, you're well aware of your breath a lot more when you're feeding. So she kind of got checked out and it was proved to be benign. And it was just a sift. But it was kind of that sense that you know, you must get checked if you find something. And we also had quite recently a character called Chloe, who unfortunate went off a cliff quite recently, but she didn't die. Literally off a cliff. Yeah, literally. As a result, she would she was in a coma. Miraculous that she didn't die really when you look at it, but she obviously was breastfeeding and was in a coma. So unfortunately, couldn't so she kind of woke up and I was like, huh, if you've been in a coma for a few days, and you're breastfeed, and exclusively, you're gonna have probably mastitis at least a blocked duct. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  1:02:15

You can't actually be breastfed when you're in a coma. Well, yeah, that's there are cases of people bringing babies to breasts. And because because there are involuntary reflexes 

Lauren Heeley  1:02:24

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And we kind of we looked at that, but we didn't have time. Again, it's a time thing. But I thought, Well, it'd be a good chance to kind of suggest how you treat mastitis. I suppose if if somebody for characters got mastitis, we can suggest you know, how to do it. And we had the classic, you know, cabbage leaves. I don't know if that does actually work for some people. If it does help. Yeah, uncomfortable. Yeah, because it helped. It helped me. It felt nice either way, when I had my stylist, so I was like, well, we can get that in there. So we had a woman with some cabbage leaves on the table and kind of just say, you know, I have to feed him. And it's important to keep the milk supply go, you know, the flow of milk go in, and that's how you prevent mastitus. And it was it was kind of a bit of a public service broadcast.

Emma Pickett  1:03:05

Definitely earnt your booby badge on that occasion, Lauren, that's definitely good information.

Lauren Heeley  1:03:12

But we do I mean, I can't talk about it's not aired yet. But we do have something in the pipeline regarding breasts that isn't that's coming up, which I'm very, very proud of. I have to say, I hope it goes down well with you guys. And I hope we've got it right. But I think we have so yeah, stay tuned. Viewers tune in. And we also had a few years ago, we had a tongue tie. We kind of explored chars, one of our matriarchs, Chaz Dingell, she had a baby. And so Chaz's father in law, is obviously an older man. And he was, again, doing the whole give her a bottle thing give her about or didn't understand why Chaz wanted to kind of pursue this and the baby was struggling latching and again, I think it came from that side of wanting to help and thinking, you know, just take the pressure off. If you struggle in it doesn't matter. You don't need to breastfeed just give her a bottle. But obviously, Chaz was very determined. And it was like, Well, no, and then it kind of transpired that, you know, Eve wasn't latching because she had a tongue tie. So I don't remember any of the soap kind of portraying I might be wrong, but a tongue tie is quite, you know, it's not something out there in the general ether isn't really people aren't aware of what that means. Yeah. So I was kind of proud that we managed to get that in there as well and started potential discussion about that, and maybe help someone that has had the same issues as Chaz and realise actually, maybe it is a tongue tie. Maybe I should get that checked out. And then obviously, she went on to successfully breastfeed after it was snipped so. So yeah, I'm proud of that one. 

Emma Pickett  1:04:35

But yeah, you really should be that is brilliant, that is really well of have hit some people in the right place and really help people. So yeah, great thing about soaps as they're with us every day, and they can be our friends. And they can also be our educators as well. And yeah, and some it must be pretty special to know that some little girl or little boy is probably watching these episodes now. And in 20 years time, this will be the weather memory of breastfeeding. was responsibility in a really good to me if you think Joanna and her Celia Imrie moment I mean, you're creating that equivalent for somebody who's not going to have a kid until you know, 2050 or something. I mean, that's Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for being a booby badge wearer and fighting the good fight, and we will keep our eyes out for future episodes. And yeah, maybe let me know when it's airing. 

Lauren Heeley  1:05:22

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We just had a beautiful homebirth over Christmas. So that's, I hope hope that goes well. Down well, as well, when the viewers so yeah, I think from that point onwards, hopefully it just gets better. 

Emma Pickett  1:05:36

Brilliant.  Thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate you sharing your story. Your and your thoughts around TV and yeah, very much look forward to seeing all the good work you can do next.

Lauren Heeley  1:05:46

Yeah. And same to you because you are a lifeline. And yeah, hats off to everyone that puts the things out there and helps 1000s of women.

Emma Pickett  1:05:54

Thank you. 

Lauren Heeley  1:05:55

Thank you. 

Emma Pickett  1:06:00

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media. 

Emma Pickett  1:06:33

One final thing, I have a discount code for my podcast listeners for my last two books, the one on supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond and the one on supporting weaning or the transition from breastfeeding. If you go to the UK Jessica Kingsley press website which is uk.jkp.com and put in the code MMPE10. That's MM for makes milk P for Pickett E for Emma one zero, you'll get a 10% discount on checkout. Thank you