Sarah's story - breastfeeding toddler twins

 My guest this week, Sarah, is a great example of the power of self belief. Sarah’s twins, Louie and Robyn, were conceived through IVF during the COVID lockdowns, and had a tricky birth resulting in transfusions and a hospital stay. Throughout all this, Sarah knew that she wanted to breastfeed her twins, and advocated for herself despite busy maternity staff not providing the support they needed. She managed to establish breastfeeding with a combination of pumping and nipple shields, continuing when she returned to work as a primary school teacher.

Louie and Robyn are now three years old and thriving. Sarah plans to continue breastfeeding them as long as they need.

You can find Sarah on Instagram @‌sarahgrace2710

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Sarah. That's Sarah Gibson Barlow from Derby. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about her journey breastfeeding her twins. She has two twins, obviously. Um, it's Robyn and Louis Robyn's a girl, Louis a boy, and they're both three.

So it's great to feature some natural term breastfeeding of twins. We're also gonna be touching on using nipple shields and tongue tie and a few other bits and bobs as well. So I'm really grateful, Sarah, for you joining me today. Thanks very much for being here. 

[00:01:17] Sarah: Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:18] Emma Pickett: So let's start at the end.

Tell me what day-to-day life is like right now, breastfeeding, Robyn and Louis. What's the sort of typical 24 hours for you? 

[00:01:27] Sarah: Depending on whether I'm at work, um, change,

I'm. Normally I'll feed them, um, before I head off. I'm a primary school teacher so I normally feed them at around about seven o'clock when they wake up and that's usually the first thing they want as well. And then I'll pick them up from their preschool at about half past four and then in a bit of sort of point of flux now with that feed, sometimes when we come back together they absolutely feed and other times it can be that they skip it and a bedtime feed at seven and still feed to works really well us.

And then Robyn, touch Wood sleeps through the night, so she doesn't feed during the night anymore, but Louis usually wakes once during the night and feeds. And then if I'm not at work, I generally just still feed them on demand. But what I have noticed is that probably in the last six months or so, if we have a day where we're busier

and we still get sort of what I would describe as past. Square one feeds and the other one then thinks, well why wouldn't I have a feed? We still do get a lot of that, so it, yeah, if one decides they want a feed, that generally prompts the other one to have a feed as well. 

[00:02:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you mentioned that Louis's still waking up at night.

Where do you sleep in relation to where they're sleeping? How does that work? 

[00:02:59] Sarah: So they sleep in their own bedroom. They do share a bed. We found, again, that worked really well for them. And we sleep, myself and my husband, we sleep in a different room, but Louie now is in a position, I don't know whether it's habit, but it's a habit that we're used to.

And if it works for him, it works for us. He will get outta bed, come and find us. Um, and then he has a feed. Sometimes he will feed back to sleep. Other times he sort of has, you know, five minutes or so and then decides that's enough. Um, and he'll ask to be taken back and we sort of taken back and he's quite happy with that.

[00:03:33] Emma Pickett: Cool. So he's at the age now where he can come out of his bed, come and find you safely. And you wake, he's sort of tapping you on the shoulder. I just imagine that's quite cute. I mean, maybe it doesn't feel so cute when you're having to do it, but I could just imagine you waking up to a little, little tap tap of, of Louis on your shoulder and then it's kind of impressive he's not waking up Robyn if they're sharing the same bed.

So she's just out for the count. Is she? 

[00:03:52] Sarah: She is. I think that's probably one of the really positive things about twins and sleeping. They've always, so when they came home from hospital or actually when they were in hospital, they were sharing a cot with each other and then they've always shared a room.

Um, when they, I'm trying to think when it was, when we took the sides off their bed. Um, we always have had, so just sort of their relationship. Louis has always been much more aware of Robyn and wants to know where Robyn is, whereas Robyn is just much more independent than he is. Actually when we took the sides off their bed, Robyn wanted to get into bed with Louie and would very, it's very sweet that she wanted to do that, but she would literally just lie on top of his face.

It wouldn't wake him up. Um, but um, so we decided to sort of push the beds together and they sit next to each other. But yeah, they more often than not, when you go in in the morning, they are slept sort of very close next to one another and they don't disturb each other at all, which is really helpful.

Particularly, you know, if they're, if they ever need to sleep when they're out and about, they generally sort of, you know, don't have to worry about them waking up and sounds disturbing them. 

[00:05:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Brilliant. Okay. And that night feed for Louis still working for you at the moment? You don't feel any need to change things?

And when you say you do a feed around seven o'clock, is that when they're waking up or are they waking up Before that, I. 

[00:05:11] Sarah: No, that's the time they wake up. So yeah. And then just sort of for our routine of getting to work, seven o'clock is generally about the time that we, um, need to get up anyway, so yeah, that, that's generally fits naturally.

Brilliant. 

[00:05:23] Emma Pickett: And as a primary school teacher, so I used to be a primary school teacher before I entered the lactation consultant world. I know it's an intense day, it's difficult to fit in pumping, and I'm guessing, you know, when you go back to work and you're breastfeeding twins, you know, milk storage capacity, milk production is an even more of an issue in terms of mastitis risk and blocked duct risk.

How, how old were they when you went back to work and how did you manage those those early months? 

[00:05:46] Sarah: I went back when they were 10 months old, and in the early days of being back at work and still feeding them, I had to express at, um, lunchtime. And fortunately for me, I don't usually have too busy a period over my lunchtime, so I was always able to just really sort of sit in my classroom, lock the door, and just express there.

For a while, they would take expressed milk, but after a while they didn't want it at all. So it just became a, a bit of a chore really, of expressing, um, and then storing it, you know, and it's still stored. Not really sure what to do with it now, but then I'm not quite sure exactly when it was. But I want to say sort of probably after being back at a period for probably four, five months, I realized that I didn't really need to express at lunchtime anymore.

So I used to push it a little bit longer. And then if I had a day at work where I was a little bit bit later, I would feel, particularly if I was missing the feed, the sort of reunion feed at around about four 30, if I missed that feed, then I would start to feel uncomfortable. So I would then need to express.

Okay. 

[00:06:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So quite, quite flexible. And then. If you're a primary school teacher, you obviously get half terms and on holidays when you, you're with them more. 

[00:07:03] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:07:04] Emma Pickett: Do you find that your supply is being boosted by all this kind of on demand feeding and then when you go back to work at the beginning of term, you are more uncomfortable?

I'm just trying to picture how your supply's fluctuating. 

[00:07:13] Sarah: I used to, but not as much anymore. The thing I, I would probably say I never noticed any sort of, I know sometimes you can say, people say things like they get, the children might get a bit fussy when they're feeding. I've never noticed that. But what I have noticed for me is breastfeeding has a real impact on my weight.

Um, so I would notice that after a period of being off with them, them feeding on demand, I would lose weight. Um, and that to me presumably indicated that the production of milk was that bit more. Yeah. 

[00:07:45] Emma Pickett: Wow, interesting. Cool. And then when you did go back to work, did you have supportive boss? Did you, what was your conversation like about protecting your breastfeeding when you were doing the return to work process?

[00:07:56] Sarah: I was just very clear that I needed to be able to express at times during the day, and they were very, very supportive of that. So in the first sort of academic year of being back at school, I didn't do any break time duties, um, because when I did a few kick days before I sort of went back to work properly, I needed to express at break time.

So that would've been about 10 o'clock as well. So they were, yeah, they were generally very supportive as time went on. I think probably the assumption maybe was that I wasn't breastfeeding anymore, so maybe that was. And I'd say forgotten about. But if, you know, if I ever needed anything, I would just sort of go to them and say, you know, this is what I need.

And, um, I found that generally that was well responded to. 

[00:08:44] Emma Pickett: Great. Thank you for answering all my, all my questions. Um, no, no problem. You've got that lovely freezer full of milk right now and some of it is presumably two years old now or coming up for two years old. Yes. Um, so difficult to donate. What, what are your thoughts about that freezer stash?

What's gonna happen to it? 

[00:08:59] Sarah: I know that when we do eventually finish breastfeeding, I would like to get some sort of breastfeeding jewelry made. So I know obviously a very small portion of it will go, um, to that. But I think probably, I would like to think that again, maybe when we finish, I might do something like a milk bath or just something to sort of generally celebrate it.

My husband keeps saying it, it's taking up a bit of space in the freezer. Um, and I think, well, I can't get rid of it. It's, you know, it's just, it's all that hard work and that labor of love, I can't part with it. So it's just gonna sit there for now. Yeah, 

[00:09:30] Emma Pickett: yeah. I get that. I mean, it's all the, it's, it's hours and hours of effort, isn't it?

And, and they're very much a big part of your history with, with Robyn and Louis. I guess there'll be some more recent milk there that maybe you could donate to someone if they're interested, even if it's just in formal milk donation. Yeah, jewelry, you can make a whole kind of crown, jewels, stash, couldn't you with, with all that?

Yeah. I actually, there was something the other day about an artist who made a dress out of breast milk, so she cheat. Oh, wow. I've got loads of breast milk jewelry made and made it into kind of like big, kind of lin type dress. So, you know, ambitions. I mean, you're a primary school teacher. Yeah. You're practical and artistic.

You can, you can have a think about some of these things. Okay. Thank you for filling us in on the current day, and I'll ask you a bit more at the end about what your plans are kind of continuing. But let's go back to the very beginning. So you've written an article for Boobing It about your, your breastfeeding journey.

So I know. Your, your story of motherhood began with some loss and I'm, I'm really sorry about that. Thank you. Are you comfortable telling us about those early, early stages of motherhood? How, how did, how did Robyn and Louis come into the world? 

[00:10:30] Sarah: Yes. So they're IVF and we're sort of very proud of the fact that they're IVF.

We're very open about it. Um, and we very much appreciate the help and support we got from the fertility partnership in Nottingham. And they were brilliant. So, yeah, we, um, got married in 2018 and decided very quickly that we wanted a family. We always knew that and, um, it just didn't happen for us. No sort of obvious reason as to why.

And then we got referred for fertility treatment pretty much in line with when lockdown happened. Um, so there was sort of lots of time where it was frustrating where fertility clinics were closed and we didn't really know what was going to happen. Um, and then we were fortunate to have, um, our first round of IVF, uh, we started in August, 2020.

We fell pregnant. Um, I took a pregnancy test on the 25th of October. It's amazing how that stays with you. And yeah, it was positive. Had very few symptoms though, which now having had another pregnancy, I realize that was probably a bit unusual. And then at six weeks of pregnancy, uh, we went for a scan.

There was a heartbeat there, reassured. And then we went for another scan, I think it was about, it was somewhere around about 11 weeks. Um, and there was just no heartbeat. So the baby had stopped growing at about nine weeks. Um, and it was a mis miscarriage. So, I'm so sorry, Sarah, at that point. 

[00:12:05] Emma Pickett: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I would just want to acknowledge that's, that's middle of lockdown as well.

I mean, were you alone during the scan or was your husband able to be with you in the scan? 

[00:12:14] Sarah: Fortunately, Scott was able to be with me. So we had a private scan, which, um, a sort of, a bit of a long story, but it's to do with covid and our bubble bursting at primary school. So we went and had an early scan for reassurance, expecting everything to be just completely normal.

And then a few days later, we then went and had the NHS scan basically to confirm there was no heartbeat. All of those had to be done on my own. But fortunately so because it was a missed miscarriage, I then had to have the um, treatment, which I believe is the treatment sort of for abortion. I had to have that.

But again, fortunately Scott was able to be with me for that. I dunno whether it was, the fertility stuff had sort of had a bit of an impact, but I think they could see that we both needed to be together for that. So fortunately we were able to do covid tests and he was able to stay on the ward with me.

So that, that takes us to about early 2021, which was when everybody then started to go into the, I think it was like a tier four. It's amazing again, how you just, I know. I was just gonna say 

[00:13:19] Emma Pickett: it's, I remember that vaguely, but gosh. Yeah. I mean, 

[00:13:22] Sarah: yeah, so we were tier four where we were. So schools went back onto remote learning again, and it just, we had, we sort of thought, we'll go again with our IVF, but we will maybe give us ourselves a bit of time.

Then schools went into lockdown and it was sort of a natural point where it was. Actually, I'm not going to be in work, so there's a bit of flexibility for me to be able to go. 

[00:13:45] Emma Pickett: So can I just ask you a practical question that has absolutely nothing to do with breastfeeding, but I'm just really curious, as an ex primary school teacher, how did you find the remote learning experience as a primary school teacher?

What, what were you required to do with your school? 

[00:13:58] Sarah: I work at a private school and I think the expectation was very high, but not in a, you know, in a bad way at all. So we would go online, we used Microsoft teams, and we would go online, meet the children at half past eight in the morning, register them, then we would then go online again at nine o'clock and teach them an English lesson where we would be expected to sort of be teaching them, um, for about 20, 25 minutes.

How old were your, was your class? Year two. So they, yeah, six and seven 

[00:14:31] Emma Pickett: teams call with year two. That's a, yeah, that is a challenge. Keeping everyone on task. 

[00:14:36] Sarah: They were just. They were remarkable. They really just got on with it. Yes. So we would do the lesson. They would then go off and do some work, and then we would come back and again, about 20 minutes for a maths input.

Then we would have lunchtime come back and about one o'clock they would either meet with me and we would go through sort of like a, a topic lesson, an re lesson, something like that. Or because we have subject specialists, they would meet a specialist and they would do, it was fascinating. They were doing, you know, like music lessons online and just, I'm glad they were on mute when they were doing the music lessons online.

It has to be said. But, um, yeah, and then we'd come back on at around about three o'clock and I would read them a story every day and then all of the marking would be done online. So it was just, it was a, a strange time, but actually it worked really well. When I chatted to some of my friends, some of my friends were.

Literally doing, you know, like no sort of teaching. It was just packs were being sent home and yeah, 

[00:15:39] Emma Pickett: I mean, just anyone who had children at primary school in this era will hear you describing that and thinking, gosh, blind mean there was a range of experiences going on, wasn't there for children and from different schools.

I mean, some people had zero contact with staff at all. Yeah. And obviously some people didn't have laptops at home or, or devices at home, or their parents are having to use the devices for work. Anyway. Sorry to take, pull you off. I'm just curious to see what it was like from your point of view. So, so while that was going on, you were restarting your journey with the clinic.

[00:16:06] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:16:07] Emma Pickett: And how did it feel to, I mean, it must be horrible, horrible, horrible. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to go that far into a pregnancy and, and just have that, that result at the end of it and that, that horrible experience. Do you feel a fear going back into the process again or are you able to hold onto that hope?

[00:16:24] Sarah: A bit of both really. I definitely did. I remember it saying to Scott when we got the positive pregnancy test for Robyn and Lou, that I wish I could just go into a period of hibernation now and then I could wake up when they were be ready to be born. And now I kind of feel, well, I do feel sad that that was the comment I made.

Um, but yes, pregnancy was generally quite an, an quite a time of anxiety for me and also for Scott as well. But actually now when I look back at the miscarriage, it's an odd feeling. It's an odd thing to say, but I'm actually very grateful that that experience happened to us, because I do think for us, it's really shaped us as parents.

And also I just sort of look at it now and I think I couldn't it, it's a bit mad. It's mad having twins, but I couldn't experience parenthood in a different way. Yeah. So, yeah, now I look back at it and I'm grateful for the experiences that we had because I just wouldn't want to change it now. 

[00:17:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah.

Obviously we don't wanna wish Robyn and Louie away, but it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't make that first loss any, any easier. No. So you had two embryos implanted. Um, second time around. So, so you didn't have that kind of Instagram experience of looking at the scan and discovering, oh my God, it's twins? No, because you, you knew twins was a possibility from the, from the very beginning.

[00:17:40] Sarah: Yeah. So we were told if we put two embryos back, they were, um, for anyone sort of familiar with IVF, they would day six. So they took a little bit longer to get to the blast assist phase. Um, and they were grade C, so they were, I think that's borderline for being frozen because they were frozen embryos. So it didn't really seem coming into it that we had sort of the odds in our favor.

But they said there was about 20% success if we put, put them back on their own. And if we put them both back together, it about doubled our chances and they said there was a 10% chance of, um, it being a multiple pregnancy. And Scott said straight away, they will both stick. And I was thinking, no, they, they won't.

And then, um. We, so we went through, um, and I always treated it on, on the both occasions that I, um, had the embryo transfer. I treated it straight away as I was pregnant and, um, you know, really sort of believed that. And then two weeks later got the positive pregnancy test. And then in between that period of waiting after the positive pregnancy test and then waiting for the scan, I had some bleeding.

And that, I think probably was the point where it was the, I would say out of, all out of that, this pregnancy, it was the most nervy because there's nothing really that can be done. You know, they could scan, but they might not be able to, um, see anything. So it was just a case of sitting and waiting. 

[00:19:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

[00:19:06] Sarah: And then on our third wedding anniversary, we had the scan and we found out that, um, yeah, we were having twins. Oh. And so actually I think probably the bleeding that I experienced was probably to do with, um, implantation bleeding. 

[00:19:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:19:22] Sarah: And they said that's really common with twin pregnancies. Um, but obviously at that point we didn't know that that that both had taken.

And I don't think anybody really wanted to say that to us just because they probably didn't wanna get our hopes up at the time while the bleeding was happening. 

[00:19:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. And then while you're pregnant, what are your thoughts around breastfeeding? What were you thinking? I mean, did the fact you were having twins affect your feelings around breastfeeding?

What was your kind of family history with breastfeeding? 

[00:19:48] Sarah: I was breastfed and um, my mom was also breastfed. And my granny, she is type one diabetic and has been for well over 60 years now. And she was always told, you won't be able to have children, you won't be able to breastfeed. Just you, you know, you won't live to, um, beyond 50.

And, um, her attitude has always been, well, I'll show you and I'll do it. So she breastfed my mom until she was nine months old, um, and was very sort of open and spoke about that. My mom breastfed myself and my sister. So that's always been, I think probably it was something that I always wanted to do. And I don't necessarily think it was sort of external factors.

I just knew that I really wanted to breastfeed and it did to me. I don't even think it entered into my head that that might be more challenging with twins. I just thought, oh, well people do it, so I'm just gonna do it. And that was my mindset the whole way through something inside me thought, no, I, I absolutely wanna do this, um, and I'm gonna do it.

[00:20:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And that, that mental state is so, such a key part of breastfeeding success for anybody, but especially with twins. When you are pregnant with twins, I'm, I'm guessing that externally you get messaging from other people that maybe is quite difficult to manage. Did you get any doctors or any health professionals talking to you about your breastfeeding journey or putting pressure on you to change your expectations?

[00:21:13] Sarah: When I was pregnant, I don't recall that. The midwife I had, that I had, she was a bit scatty, but she was very supportive. So I said I really wanna breastfeed. We also didn't find out what we were having. Um, we obviously knew it was twins, but we didn't know whether we were having a girl and a boy. And I think she thought the sort of vibe I got from her was that perhaps that was a little bit out of the ordinary.

Um, so she, she was generally very supportive and, you know, would sort of just be really helpful and I really enjoyed the sort of chats I would have with her. She directed me to the breastfeeding twins and triplets group on Facebook, and I just, I think I joined that probably from about, I want to say I probably would've been about 12 weeks pregnant.

I joined that and basically just kind of sat there in the background and tried to absorb all the information that was on there. So again, I think probably having been part of that group from so early on in pregnancy and seeing so many people or on there talking about their successful breastfeeding journeys.

That really supported me as well because I thought, well, there's, to me, it appears that there's lots of people out there who are breastfeeding, so why wouldn't it work for me? Don't get me wrong. There are people who talk on there about, you know, struggles that they're having. And I think, again, that probably helped because I was aware of that, that I just saw lots of success and you know, people, natural term breastfeeding twins on there as well.

So I just believed that that was something that we were going to be able to do. 

[00:22:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, that group, we could talk about that group for forever because it's such a valuable group. So this is Breastfeeding Twins and Triplets uk, which is a Facebook group originally is now a charity and a website and, and Catherine Stack, who founded the group also has written a great book as well.

That group, as you say, it's not just about meeting lactation consultants and breastfeeding supporters, it's just that knowledge that other people are out there doing that and making it work and what a significant impact that has on people. And I'm really glad that you found it in pregnancy 'cause that I think that's super valuable.

Did you do any particular antenatal classes? What kind of other education did you have? 

[00:23:17] Sarah: So we did a Twins Trust. Um, course the midwife, again, was really helpful and she sort of, her advice was if you're having a normal run of run of the mill, pregnancy N CT will work for you. But if you are doing anything that's slightly abnormal, perhaps, you know, twins or maybe you've got, um, a baby where you know that they're gonna have a disability, for example, when, um, they're born, then seek out the help of the charity and go and do a parenting course more specific.

So we did that and I think it was something like three, two hour sessions that we did with the Twins Trust and one of those two hour sessions. I think the middle one was about when they come home and it incorporated feeding choices into that. And if I had done just that, that would've no in no way prepared me for breastfeeding.

I think probably looking back, the bulk of that was about formula feeding. 

[00:24:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:24:13] Sarah: Which, you know, was absolutely fine. But yeah, it, I think there was a small portion of it that was focused on breastfeeding and I think they probably did suggest joining the breastfeeding twins and triplets group. I also went to an online session, again, run by Charmwood Bras, who I think are Les League.

They did an online session and I, again, I did that quite early on in my pregnancy. Both myself and Scott sat and sort of listened to that because it was online and that was really useful. And I do sort of find myself, I made lots of notes and I often go back and look at the notes that I made and thought, oh, that was, you know, that was useful.

And it's still useful to have those notes now. 

[00:24:53] Emma Pickett: Great. So you really did get education from lots of different places, which is brilliant. Yeah. And, and tell us about the birth In the early couple of days with, with Robyn and Louis, 

[00:25:01] Sarah: I had a planned C-section. They were 38 weeks and five days, and the pregnancy had been fairly, um, straightforward, but they were both breached by the time that they were ready to be delivered.

So yeah, plan C-section. That didn't go quite to plan because I had, I think it was an, a tonic hemorrhage, um, after. Okay. Um, so lost a lot of blood following their birth. Um, and I think they were genuinely quite worried at points that I might not be there. 

[00:25:29] Emma Pickett: Oh gosh. I'm sorry Sarah. That's scary for you and, and for Scott as well.

[00:25:32] Sarah: Fortunately at the time we had no idea what was going on. Oh, okay. 

[00:25:35] Emma Pickett: There's advantages to that. So 

[00:25:37] Sarah: yeah, I, um, yeah, lost a lot of blood and had some, I had blood transfusions, but now looking back I realize that I had them on, I had Robyn first, actually. Scott had Louie and we had them on us for a period and then it's really tricky 'cause I don't really know how long it was, but I just remember they were born at 1229 and 1230.

And then we got onto the high dependency ward at about half past six. So there was a period of time where Scott was in a different room with Robyn and, and sort me out. So I think actually when I read about sort of that, that golden window of trying to breastfeed, we didn't get that at all. But, um, they were very reluctant feeders.

Robyn would give it her best shot at trying to feed, but she would latch for seconds and then would, you know, fall off. I had hand expressed as much colostrum as I could prior to giving birth. So I think I had about 30 mil of milk, but they just, yes, they would take that. But very quickly we went through that and I think probably because I'd had, um, the blood loss, I then just couldn't get anything further.

So I was trying to hand express wasn't getting anything, and I kept saying to the staff at the hospital, please, can I speak to the infant feeding team? I know that I need some help. They're not latching and we just got ignored. And that's, I think probably the point where, so I feel that actually, I think probably people thought, oh, it's nice that you wanna breastfeed.

The odds are against you and you're not gonna be able to, so you might as well just dot formula feed. I think that was the, that was certainly the impression that I Yeah. Got at the time. And then on reflection and they were quite dismissive. 

[00:27:24] Emma Pickett: Do you think that was because of the blood loss or do you think that was because they were twins?

[00:27:27] Sarah: I think probably both. And they were very busy. It was in November, 2021, so there was still covid restrictions in place and um, yeah, they just were generally quite dismissive. So I asked to see the infant feeding team repeatedly. Um, someone brought me a pump, brought me along a pump at some point, and I tried to use the pump, but it was just sort of literally deposited in the bay.

And then no one said, you know, this is what you might want to do with it. It was just, you figure it out. So I remember trying that and getting nothing and being frustrated. I was in hospital two nights I think it was. So it was the final night I was in a midwife, came through in the middle of the night and said to me about Louis, he's starving.

And I was like, oh, okay. Um, and they said, 

[00:28:11] Emma Pickett: great word to use. Yeah, that, 

[00:28:13] Sarah: that's really helpful. He's starving. So we need to give him some formula. And I was like, but I don't want to give him some formula. I wanna breastfeed. I need some help with that. I've asked to see the infant feeding team. Please can I see the infant feeding team?

And um, she said, oh, well we can't do that now because it's the middle of the night, but we'll sort it for you tomorrow. And then she sort of gave, I don't know, you know, gave me what I felt like was a bit of a judgmental looks and then checked again. So you want me to leave him? You don't wanna him any formula?

Yes. Um, and she left. And then I think I sat there, cried for probably 10 minutes or so, feeling, you know, just all of these different emotions. And then I called her back and said, well, do you think he's starving? And she said, you know, yes. And I said, okay, well if you think giving him formula is gonna help right now, then let's do that.

But I absolutely still want to prioritize breastfeeding because that's what I wanna do, and I know it's best for them. So please can you support me in that? So I don't want him to being given it in a bottle. I want it in a cup. Sounds really demanding now, but yeah, I want it in a cup. No, it doesn't sound 

[00:29:18] Emma Pickett: demanding.

It sounds bloody impressive. I'm really glad that you were able to say these things when you were literally struggling after a blood loss and, and you know, and, and have after having major surgery and, and giving birth. I mean, good for you to be able to speak up like this in this situation. 

[00:29:31] Sarah: Yeah, and and they, they did, they gave it in a cup and then we did switch to um, I think probably the following day.

I just remember having the mindset of, I've had enough in here, I'm going home today. Um, Scott was on very restricted hours as well and they weren't particularly sort of supportive of having extended hours given that we've got two babies and I couldn't change nappies and, you know, you'd press the buzzer for somebody to come along and help you and no one would appear for a very long period of time.

And that's not me being critical of any individual, it's just that that was the state of the NHS. At that time, and maybe still is, unfortunately. 

[00:30:08] Emma Pickett: So you still haven't had any breastfeeding support? No. So even this, even this midwife who's using the word starving is not offering to help you latch Louis on, she's not offering to help you get breastfeeding going.

[00:30:18] Sarah: One midwife, and it wasn't the same midwife, came along and really picked my boob up and put Robyn on me and did get her to latch. And I think that was the longest period that she latched for, you know, I'm talking minutes that she was on for, and I think that was probably the only breastfeeding support that I got whilst in hospital.

[00:30:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:30:40] Sarah: So I had the mindset of, I'm going home, um, I, I know that I'm gonna get on better at home. I had got a pump that I'd already bought at home and we went home and I basically just hooked myself up to the pump and expressed 

[00:30:55] Emma Pickett: I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jessie's Milkies.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jessie's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jessie's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jessie's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching, and I'm really excited to share the book with you if you're interested.

In my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding.

For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 makes milk picket Emma. 10. 

Let's just take a moment to realize how Banana as it is to live in a system where you felt you needed to leave the building full of registered health professionals and people with breastfeeding training to be able to get home and get breastfeeding established.

And how really sad that is. And as you say, it's not about criticizing individuals. It, it is a system where something is really not working, where you are asking multiple times for infant feeding support and not getting it. And it's just awful. And I'm just so sorry that was your experience and I wish, I wish I could say that was a rare story, but it sadly isn't.

Yeah. So you got home, Robyn's latched a little bit. Has Louis latched at all at this point? 

[00:32:48] Sarah: Um, no, I don't think so. He was just a very sleepy baby. We got home and I basically hooked myself up to my, um, pump. And expressed, um, I think probably every two hours. Um, and by that point I was starting to get colostrum back.

I just pumped, pumped, pumped. And the following morning, the community midwives came round. So that would've been the Friday morning after they were born on the Tuesday. And I think they were quite bewildered by the experience that we'd had, but we just had, so at that point I was expressing as much milk as I could, but they were saying that it wasn't enough milk for them.

So they told us to take, to have formula as well. But no one had said to us, you know, this is how much formula to give, um, this is how often to give it. They just left us. So they came round and by this point, Robyn and, um, had jaundice, um. Yeah, they, the community midwives were helpful. They didn't really give us any breastfeeding advice from what I can remember.

And again, I think I asked the question again of could I see someone from the infant feeding team? And that didn't happen, but they did give us a really sort of strict feeding plan and we just got on with that. So we were basically using a mixture of formula and expressed milk, and then I was then putting them on the breast after every feed if I could, and get trying to give them a latch the following day.

We then went for a weigh in, um, it must have been the day five weigh in, and the midwife that I had seen throughout my pregnancy that had always been really supportive, then scared the life out of us because she told us we were gonna have to be readmitted to hospital because they'd lost too much weight.

And then she then did give us some breastfeeding advice, but on reflection, I don't think it was particularly. Good breastfeeding advice, she said to feed them with, um, the formula or the express milk and then to offer them the breast afterwards, which my understanding now is it should really be sort of the other way around.

[00:34:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean usually we would do it the other way around if we want your, your supply to be stimulated, but I guess it depends a lot on, on what's going on with weight gain. And she may have had a specific reason for saying that. I don't know. Yeah, that's a sc that readmission story is super scary for anyone who's had that, that you just, that jolt of fear and, and adrenaline and oh my goodness, what's gonna happen next is it's really difficult to get over that and to, yeah, to, to get back to feeling confident.

So you went back to hospital. Are you, please tell me you got some feeding support in hospital. 

[00:35:27] Sarah: So, actually another quick, and I dunno if this maybe was part of the reason why we didn't get feeding support when we were in hospital. So we lived technically in Leicestershire, but the hospital we went to is a derby hospital and we, I dunno what the term is, the um, like the medical trust, we sort of crossed borders of medical trusts.

So we went and had this wait appointment in Leicester. And in Leicestershire we would've met the criteria for being readmitted into hospital and through a E, which again, I just think, you know, like it just sound, it was just all alarm bells. But actually they contacted Derby and Derby basically said, we don't want them to come back in, but you need to put something in place to support feeding.

So the midwife basically said to us, you know, carry on with doing with what you are doing. And someone will be out again in I think two days time. And I think they had to gain something like 120 grams each. Um, and they gained about 150. So then they kind of, the frequent weight visits then, um, stopped for a time.

But within that sort of period, I chatted to a friend who had had to use nipple shields and she basically said, have you tried them? And I said, you know, no, no one's ever mentioned them to me. And I tried them and they worked. So Robyn did latch on and stayed on, and we basically ignored the advice of the midwife.

And then topping up with any milk that I could get because I was still expressing as often as I possibly could. Okay. 

[00:37:09] Emma Pickett: So you instinctively knew that breast first made more sense and that was Yes. Luckily. And you might have absorbed that from some of your, uh, contact on the group and, and some of your antenatal stuff too, which is great.

So Robyn is on with a shield feeding, transferring milk. Yeah. And, you know, just let's, let's just take a little shout out for Nipple Shields. How, how they really can make an enormous difference to people's early breastfeeding experiences and be incredibly helpful 

[00:37:34] Sarah: for us. If we have not used them, we would not be breastfeeding today.

Like I can, you know? Definitely. So, yeah, for us, although they became, uh, uh, towards the end, they were, you know, they, well, they always are, but they were just, they worked so well and I. For us, they were helpful because they were, they were going between at that point because they were then I was expressing, we then did go to giving them a bottle and doing paste feeding.

I dunno whether it helped that transfer between sort of breast and bottle, but whatever it was, they were brilliant. 

[00:38:08] Emma Pickett: So Louis's on with a shield as well at this point as well? 

[00:38:11] Sarah: Sort of not in any way the same way that Robyn was. So it got to about, I think it was about two weeks after delivery and Louis was still not really latching on, um, he was much more alert and would take a bottle.

But now I realize it was all the sort of characteristic signs of tongue tie. And we had asked, I, I had some knowledge of Tong Tai and I'd asked, you know, a couple of times, could they be checked, Louis in particular. And we were always told no, he's not got tongue tie. You know, maybe he just doesn't like breastfeeding.

Um, 

[00:38:49] Emma Pickett: oh my goodness. 

[00:38:50] Sarah: Area I live in, there's a Facebook group which is run by the infant feeding team and the infant, and it must have been the health visitor who told me to join that group. So I joined that group and basically just put in a bit of a cry for help and was like, I just dunno what to do here.

You know, I'm, I'm get, I'm getting nowhere. I really want some help. I really want to breastfeed. Can anybody suggest anything? And fortunately it was picked up by the infant feeding team by a lady called Claire Hubbard who runs the infant feeding team in, I dunno if it's northwest aster, she, but certainly that area.

And she picked it up and, um, I think I put that message on it about seven 30 in the evening. And she was knocking on our door at nine o'clock the following morning and she came round, looked at Louis, and within two minutes in said. And then she looked at Robyn and said, oh, and he, she has two. And she did lots of support.

She sort of talked to me about positioning and she really understood the difficulties of trying to latch two children on at the same time as well and gave me useful support. Whereas I think sometimes after sort of meeting her, I'd speak to other people who I think probably thought I was an octopus, um, and had, you know, eight arms to be able to hold children in different positions at different times.

But she really understood the difficulties, I suppose, and challenges we were facing that were unique to tandem feeding. 

[00:40:15] Emma Pickett: I was gonna actually say nipple shield. Sorry to interrupt you, but, but nipple shields and tandem feeding are something we don't often hear a lot about. So you can put nipple shield number one on, put baby number one on, but then to use both hands to be able to get, yeah.

Nipple shield number two on that is quite challenging. 

[00:40:33] Sarah: I think I used to have to literally just go like top off, boobs out and then nipple shields would go on. 

[00:40:39] Emma Pickett: So you'd have to, you'd put them on in such a way that they would stay on. So you're doing that clever sort of slightly inside out method Yeah.

To create the suction and they've, they've really got to stay on, they can't just pop off again, you've got, you can't be in a situation where you've got to use your hand to hold the nipple shield in place. Yeah. They've, they've got to stay on by themselves essentially. Did you use any tape or anything to keep them on, or you were able just to use suction?

I. 

[00:41:00] Sarah: I think I was using suction and then maybe a bit of the like la the, um, lain cream to sort of act as like a bit of an adhesive really. And just keep them on there. So, and then I would then latch them on. Scott did have, he took two weeks of paternity leave and then two weeks of annual leave. And, um, I always say this, that I genuinely don't think, again, another part of our breastfeeding joint.

I don't think we would've got that if I hadn't had his support throughout. He would, and he still does. Every time Louis wakes up in the night or Robyn wakes up in the night he is up and just, you know, our biggest cheerleader. So he would, you know, be fully there passing me the, so I'd get the, I'd have the feeding pillow in place.

Nipple shields on and then he would put the babies on and then position. 

[00:41:46] Emma Pickett: So Claire identified the tongue tie and she did a referral for you and then the tongue tie procedures were done. How did you find that experience? So we were 

[00:41:52] Sarah: told if we waited on the NHS, we would be waiting 18 weeks to have the tongue tie divided.

So 

[00:42:00] Emma Pickett: that is, that is a record I think. I've not heard that. Yeah, that is such a long time. I mean, he's still gonna be breastfeeding in that situation at 18 weeks. Yeah. 

[00:42:08] Sarah: So we decided we were gonna go privately and we saw A-I-B-C-C close by to us and yeah, we had the tongue tie divided and they still continue to need the nipple shield, but feeding improved.

She was quite anti nipple shield i'll So saying you try our attitude. Let's just take it one step at a time for now. They're managing to breastfeed much better than they ever did before. So let's just go with that and we'll slowly phase out nipple shields when that time comes, if that time comes. 

[00:42:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

I mean, it's nipple shields are so controversial. You do get people that have very strong views on them. But, but my perspective, and I think probably most people who've worked with babies, uh, have tongue ties and other anatomical stuff is that, you know, you, you focus on one thing at a time, and if you focus on getting rid of the nipple shields, what ends up happening is that babies don't feed.

You end up getting big long gaps between feeds. You every feed starts with a battle. Emotionally, you start to be impacted and it's, you know, psychologically not good for anybody. So, um, you know, we've gotta be really careful about that message that we want to prioritize getting rid of shields. How long did you end up using the Shields?

For? 

[00:43:20] Sarah: About six months and very dramatically. One day I was feeding and Louie took the shield off me and threw it across the room and he never wanted a shield again. And then we went on holiday, took the shields with me and Robyn, not quite as dramatically, but basically decided he's not using a shield, I'm not gonna use one either.

And then that was that. So yeah, they were about six months old. 

[00:43:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. So again, great advert for how you can use nipple shields for as long as six months. Yeah. And here you are now, three years later, still breastfeeding and how that, that early nipple shield use wasn't a barrier to your milk supply.

Developing wasn't a barrier to them Developing good breastfeeding techniques, you know, really emotionally, psychologically helped you. How, how are you feeling about the nipple shields towards the end? Do you, were you feeling more pressure to get rid of them or were you just sort of happy to keep going?

[00:44:13] Sarah: I think I was a bit self-conscious of when I was feeding out and about. Given that you are already sort of tandem feeding, so I think, you know, people may be, are a bit more aware of, and you perhaps not as well covered when you're feeding. But then the fact to add on a nickel shield as well. I did feel like I was quite exposed at times.

Maybe that was just all in my head, but I found them a faf, I think is the word I'd use. So when, yeah, Louis did very dramatically throw it across the room. I did think, okay, I, you know, if you are done with them, I'm more than happy to be done with them as well. That feels like 

[00:44:46] Emma Pickett: a sign. It feels like a sign when he literally throws across the room and then when he latched on without them for the first time, pretty much.

Were you, did you go through a phase of being in pain again? What did it feel like to breastfeed without shields? 

[00:44:59] Sarah: No. Do you know, wanna say? I can't even really remember. Um, it just was, that was, you know, sort of the new normal and I, I don't recall having any pain from them at all. 

[00:45:09] Emma Pickett: Great. I'm very glad to hear that's the case.

Are they both fairly similar in their breastfeeding patterns at this point? What, what did you find that one fed more than the other? What was it, what were they like in terms of different personalities towards breastfeeding? 

[00:45:21] Sarah: Very similar. Yeah. They would, and I, I, I think I said earlier, they just were copy paste.

So if one decided they wanted milky as they've, they've always called it. Then the other one definitely wanted it as well. So I have, for the majority of my breastfeeding journey, I have tandem fed. 

[00:45:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. What does a night look like for you at this point? I realize this is three years ago, and it's a bit of a blur, but do you remember nights under 12 months?

What were you, were you co-sleeping at any point? Were you Yes. How did you manage things? You, were you always sitting up to feed with the cushion? What? What were you doing? 

[00:45:52] Sarah: I want to say they probably fed. Bar, the sort of, what is it, four months sleep regression where they learn day and night. They woke up every 45 minutes there and remember feeling like a zombie.

Um, but most of the time, sort of bar that, I want to say they've probably done two hour stretches. 

[00:46:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:46:11] Sarah: And usually if one woke, the other one would wake, or I think probably we just decided. For our sanity, we would wake them both up because we knew if the other one hadn't woke, they probably would wake as soon as we'd settled.

Okay. The first one, back to sleep. 

[00:46:28] Emma Pickett: And you are sitting, are you up with a cushion? With a cushion? 

[00:46:32] Sarah: I think we, we all, we still do, we use like six or seven pillows in bed basically to sort of like prop me up to, to do, I dunno what the position would it be like a foot, I think a football hold style position.

[00:46:42] Emma Pickett: So they're coming at you from the sides? Yeah. Yes. 

[00:46:45] Sarah: Yeah. 

[00:46:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. And are you, I'm just trying to work out how you're alive, essentially, Sarah. So you are, so you're doing that every two hours. You're sitting up, you're propped up, you've got the breastfeeding pillow, they're on the pillow, you're sorting out your shields every two hours.

And then once they're asleep, you are sort of moving them back to a flat surface or did you sometimes sleep with them on the cushion with obviously Scott helping you out and supervising and things? 

[00:47:12] Sarah: Yeah, we would transfer them. So we had a, like a makeshift next to me, caught next to us. Um, and Louis was always quite happy to sleep in the next to me, but Robyn was much more reluctant, so she used to sleep in between.

Myself and Scott and Louis used to sleep on the other side. Um, there were times when we cos slept with both of them in the bed. And I dunno how we did that because our bed's not, not huge. Um, but um, yeah, we, we, so we just did a mixture of co-sleeping and then using the next to me, um, with the side off of it and pushed right up.

[00:47:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then gradually those intervals started to increase. Did you do anything to change that or did you just go with their flow? Naturally? 

[00:47:58] Sarah: I went with their flow naturally, don't get me wrong, there have been points where they have sort of gone back to, um, there were points where they did sleep for longer periods.

So I think probably when we hit around about the year mark, I wanna say they were probably going every four hours. And then when they were just before two, we went through a bit of a rough patch again, where it was every few, every couple of hours again. And we were, you know, both back at work and we were exhausted.

So we spoke to Molly from Fox in the Moon. Mm-hmm. I think that's the, yeah. Um, we spoke to her, she was brilliant and just, you know, really supportive of what we wanted to do and what we wanted to maintain. So she gave us some tips on sort of, you know, encouraging, um, see, but we never sort of, I didn't really ever want to discourage feeding.

It was just if we could get them to sleep for that little bit longer. That would be helpful. 

[00:48:52] Emma Pickett: I mean, waking every two hours and breastfeeding twins every two hours and being a primary school teacher blind me. That takes some doing that. I mean, yeah. I mean, everyone's like, okay, how, how difficult can it be?

Being a primary school teacher, you're just watching people coloring in. It's such an intense job. It's such an intense job. I mean, you've got to be tuned into the emotions of 30 people in your room, you know, 32, 33 potentially. I mean, it's, it just really takes it out of you. You cannot switch off for a minute.

You don't get breaks, you don't get downtime. How on earth were you managing that with a year into breastfeeding and they're going back to waking more frequently. It must have been really tough. 

[00:49:27] Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I, I can't, I, I do have a slightly smaller class than um, 30. Um, so I have a class of, at the moment, I have a class of 18, so I do have a slightly smaller class.

But then, and maybe that helps. I dunno, honestly, just life. 

[00:49:41] Emma Pickett: But like we said that though, private school, there are different types of expectations. Mm-hmm. I mean, expectations from parents, expectations from, from senior staff, you know, they're certainly not, they're not coloring in, not that anyone's ever coloring in, in, in year two.

But it's, no, you know, you've still got a lot of pressure on you and it's in those days are really intense. 

[00:49:58] Sarah: I think it just, it, it was just, that was life. So I was, and still am sleep deprived. We just got on with it. That was, you know, that was, and Scott, and as I said, Scott was always getting up too. So, um, we were both sleep deprived, but I think we were just sort of in it together.

And often we would be asleep on the sofa by about half past eight at night. So, yeah, that just, it's just, that's just been normal really for us. 

[00:50:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And, and obviously your drive to want up to make breastfeeding work, there was an ill alternative for you, if that makes sense. You didn't give yourself another choice, you didn't, you know, your choice to continue breastfeeding and, and wanting to prioritize that was such much, so, so much a key part of what you were doing.

Yeah. So, so now here you are three, three and a half years. What are your feelings about the end of your breastfeeding journey? Do you have any ideas about how you might want that to go? Or are you just kind of going with the flow? 

[00:50:48] Sarah: Just going with the flow. I very much wanna be led by them and they have, as I said, I think earlier, they have naturally started to reduce their feeds, but I just, yeah, I want to be led by them if they still feel they need it.

That's me with us now. I do sort of, if they ask, I might do particularly, you know, if we're out or we're busy and it's not maybe as com not a really convenient time, I will sometimes sort of say to them, you know, do you want to cuddle? Do you want some water and or you know, um, let me come and play with you and kind of try and distract them a bit.

Um, yeah, I just intend to be led by them and we'll see, um, what happens. I am going away for the first time next weekend and I'll just be really interested to see how, if that makes any changes. Um, when I come back I can't really see it making any changes. I'd 

[00:51:41] Emma Pickett: be surprised if it did, if I'm honest. Yeah. If just for a weekend.

I mean, I've got people who are going away for weeks at a time and it's not making an issue a difference. If children have got that motivation to breastfeed, they absolutely will. Yeah. And you're still doing most of your feeds, tandem feeds both together. 

[00:51:55] Sarah: Yeah, certainly when we're at home we definitely tandem feed, you know, the majority of the time.

During the night, it's obviously not a tandem feed anymore because Robyn's usually not awake at the same time as Louis. But, um, when we're out and about it probably does tend to be single feeds that bit more because I would say usually they're coming over if, if we're out and about and we're busy, they're coming over and asking for milk maybe because of something like maybe they've fallen over something like that.

So it, it just, it does, yeah. Generally tend to be one at a time, much more than it ever was when we're out. 

[00:52:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you haven't had any negative experiences in terms of like family or friends, you're not starting to get murmurs that, oh my goodness, they're this age and they're still feeding. How, how's that support network doing?

[00:52:41] Sarah: No, I don't want to sort of speak like ne speak negatively, but I think if perhaps anybody did have any feelings of maybe you need to be, you know, ending this now, I don't think they would voice them because I think they probably know that I would turn around and go, our voice we're on. Your opinions there are irrelevant to our decisions, um, that we're making.

So if they did maybe feel like that, I don't think they would say anything anyway. But no, we've never had anything negative. We've always only had positive comments. Particularly we've traveled to America quite a few times, um, since they've been born. And particularly in America, I was quite nervous. We've been to Florida, um, and I, you know, obviously Florida kind of has that reputation of being quite conservative and, um, actually there, I've had so many people come over to me and say, wow, you are tandem feeding them.

That's incredible. I remember being stood in a, um, a cue once and there was a mum in front of me who turned around, saw I was breastfeeding, sort of whilst walking and said, oh my goodness, go in front of me. And like, then kind of made a, a big fuss and was like, this lady's breastfeeding, you need to let her through.

You go was like, oh, okay. Thanks. Oh, I've always found everybody to be very supportive. 

[00:53:57] Emma Pickett: Good. Well, I'm very glad that's the case and, and I can see what a kind of ambassador you are for breastfeed. I mean, literally traveling from one country to the next. But, but you know, despite all the challenges, there was this feeling that came through from everything you said where you just had this absolute strength, this determination that this is what you wanted to do and it was other people's jobs to support you and.

Make it work. And also it is really clear what a partner Scott has been in this process and how much he supported you as well. Yeah. Um, which is, he has, which is really, really lovely to hear. 

[00:54:25] Sarah: I think the infertility and the Yeah. The miscarriage for us, it, yeah, it's just really shaped us as a, as parents, but as a couple.

He's just been, I couldn't ask for a better partner. Um, he's been incredible throughout and yeah, just, just, you know, a complete cheerleader, um, in every way that he possibly could be. So I feel really, really lucky. Yeah. Just feel really lucky for that. 

[00:54:49] Emma Pickett: Oh, brilliant. Is there anything we haven't talked about in terms of your story or breastfeeding twins generally that you, you want to make sure we highlight?

[00:54:57] Sarah: I think the only thing I would say is like, is the sort of, probably the lack of understanding sometimes from medical professionals is, I dunno whether that's worth highlighting or not, but just generally sort of the comments, sometimes the comments you would get from medical professionals that were maybe had outdated information or, um, didn't understand the intricacies of, um, breastfeeding.

I did have a health visitor once when Louis was about, I think they were about six months old. And I say Louis because he did have to be frequently weighed again. Um, it was meant to be every month, but they used to come back, you know, like every two weeks. And I just found them really bothersome because we could say, we look back at it now and we're like, what on earth?

He was this really chunky baby with lots of roles and um, but they just really bothered us with his weight and um, I remember having the health visitor, they were, yeah, they were about six months old and she said, what are your plans with breastfeeding? And I just sort of said, um, you know, we'll just carry on.

And, um, she said, well, I think you really need to get into a routine with it now. And I said, well, why do you say that? And she said, well, you know, they shouldn't be feeding, um, more than, you know, every two hours. It's not good for them. And, um, I just sort of said, you know, I disagree with you. Um, that's not my understanding of, you know, research that I've read.

Good for 

[00:56:18] Emma Pickett: you. 

[00:56:19] Sarah: And, um, she just said, well, they, they can't be feeding for anything more than hunger. You know, they can't, yeah. They can't be feeding for anything more than hunger. And I just said, again, I completely disagree with you. Um, you know, if they want to feed for comfort, then I'm gonna comfort them in.

Way, that's probably the easiest way possible for me. So I disagree with you. And, um, politely sort of when we booked the next appointment, I said, I don't really wanna see her again. I just, you know, and, and reported back to the infant feeding team that actually the health visitor who had come out was not particularly supportive.

And I think, you know, I don't want, as I said before, I, it's not about individuals, um, being critical of individuals. I. People to have that knowledge, um, and not spread really misinformation because actually that really was what that was, it was misinformation That 

[00:57:07] Emma Pickett: absolutely was. And, and gosh, well done for saying I don't agree with you and being so click up like that.

I wish we could clone you and send you to everyone's health visitor conversations. I mean, there are obviously health visitors who are absolute champions of breastfeeding and natural term breastfeeding and twin breastfeeding. You met somebody who was poorly informed and unfortunately quite confident in their poor information and, and how special that they met you.

And I really hope that they took that away and, and rethought their practice a little bit. Well done. Yeah. For talk, quite often people have those kind of conversations just, just kind of go, okay, and then afterwards go, if only I'd said something. Yeah, but you, but you did the thing that people wish they'd done.

You, you said something in that moment and crucially you fed back to the ma management team, which is so important. 'cause if we never do that, things will never change and never get better 

[00:57:54] Sarah: from the point of view of Yeah. Breastfeeding and breastfeeding twins. I just think that there is. If in order for more women to be able to meet their breastfeeding goals, we need to be able to support them in the best way that we can.

And only way we're going to do that is by educating people. Um, and I, I, you know, all that's, that was all she needed. She just needed, you know, some further education, further training, um, on the information that she had really. Um, so hopefully the, hopefully she got that. But I have to say, when we had our two year check, I kind of went in there thinking, is anybody go, you know, I don't, I dunno what health visitor were meeting, are they going to be supportive of breastfeeding?

You know, what are they gonna say? But actually the health visitor was, um, incredibly supportive. And we have met, um, Louis had residual pneumonia for 13 months and, um, we met lots of medical professionals during that time. And while he had that, um, and I would say I'm breastfeeding. The comment that we usually got was That's brilliant.

That's really helpful to him. We know that he's still getting nutrition as well as, um, hydration. So that Yeah, generally it was mostly supportive, but just yeah, those odd few where that could make a real difference to somebody, you know, hearing that could really make them think twice about breastfeeding.

[00:59:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Sarah. I'm really grateful and if people want to find you on Instagram, we'll put your tag in the show notes. Um, I realize you're super busy, but you might be able to answer, answer an individual question if it comes up. Yeah. And, uh, thank you so much for your time today.

We, we've heard a little bit of Louis and Robyn in the background, which has been a, a gift. Um, so I'm gonna let you go back to them and thank you so much for your time today. 

[00:59:36] Sarah: Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it. And um, yeah, the podcast is fabulous, so I'm just really proud to be able to be a part of it, so thank you.

Oh, thanks.

[00:59:50] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.