Amy's story - breastfeeding through losses

This week, I’m honoured to be joined by Amy Viniski, a breastfeeding peer supporter and mindful breastfeeding practitioner, to share her personal experiences with pregnancy loss while breastfeeding. Amy candidly shares the emotional and physical challenges she faced through multiple losses, including an ectopic pregnancy and miscarriages. We discuss the misconceptions surrounding breastfeeding and miscarriage risk, the importance of support, and balancing personal grief while continuing to care for a breastfeeding child. At around 55 minutes, Amy also guides listeners through a mindfulness breathing exercise, providing a supportive resource for others who may be dealing with similar experiences.

You can follow Amy on Instagram at @‌nurture_nest_uk

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources - 

Sands - Saving babies' lives. Supporting bereaved families https://www.sands.org.uk/

Tommy's - The pregnancy and baby charity https://www.tommys.org/

Mindful Breastfeeding Training, Classes & Courses For Professionals - Anna Le Grange, Lactation Consultant IBCLC https://mindfulbreastfeeding.co.uk/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am honored to be talking to Amy Viniski, who is from Bury St. Edmonds in Suffolk. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about loss and pregnancy loss. Sharing Amy's experiences and talking about the wider lessons that she's learned from those experiences, because Amy doesn't just wear a mother hat. She also wears a professional hat as well.

So she's a breastfeeding peer supporter. She's a mindful breastfeeding practitioner. She's also involved in thinking about pregnancy loss support and, and perinatal support. And she's also a teacher. So lots of hats. A whole room full of hats. Um, thanks very much for joining me today, Amy. 

[00:01:27] Amy Viniski: Thank you. 

[00:01:28] Emma Pickett: I'm really grateful for the fact that you're here to share your own experiences of loss and, and we know from previous episodes how valuable it is for people to not feel alone and not to feel isolated.

Um, and is there anything you want to set the very beginning for somebody who's maybe listening to this episode and thinking, oh, I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to listen to this episode. Is there any kind of headlines you want to give them or messages you want to give them if they're trying to make that decision?

[00:01:52] Amy Viniski: I think the most, I important headline is. That you're not alone. I think walking through pregnancy loss can be very, very lonely, especially in those early days when people don't know that you are pregnant and then you go through the loss. So I think I want to kind of with this episode, provide people with knowledge, support, and some understanding to know that they're not alone.

[00:02:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, so hopefully, um, people will connect to that. And also we have professional audiences as well. And I think it's really important for anyone who works in, in the sort of perinatal postnatal space to understand the experience of, of going through loss and specifically going through loss while breastfeeding.

Because let's face it, we live in a world where there's lots of prejudice about continuing to breastfeed beyond infancy, loads of prejudice about natural term breastfeeding, loads of myths around. Miscarriage risk when breastfeeding. So it's really, and, and all that, all those myths add to the extra guilt, add, add to the misunderstandings of family members and even partners.

So I think it's really important we address that too. So before we start talking about, um, your personal experiences, Amy, tell me a bit more about being a mindful breastfeeding practitioner, because that's something I think that is so valuable and I'd love to hear more about it. How did, how did you start training and, and what, how do you find that experience?

[00:03:21] Amy Viniski: So I've initially trained as a peer supporter with the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers. I started that because I wanted to gain more knowledge and understanding about breastfeeding. I was breastfeeding my son at the time and my breastfeeding journey. I was very lucky. I never had many problems breastfeeding.

It did come quite easy for us, but. The biological needs and side of things weren't quite understood by those closest around me. Okay. So for example, my son would feed a lot. He was on me all the time and I got a lot of, um, we obviously haven't got enough milk and you should go to formula. Luckily, I, I ignored all that.

Um, but I wanted to understand more and so I could support other mothers in their journey. And I trained and then I thought, actually it'd be really nice to kind of understand the psychological side behind things as well as the biological side. So I looked into that a little bit more and came across Anna Lag, Granger's mindful breastfeeding course online.

And I looked into that and thought, this is concept I'd be really interested in to understand more about the psychological side of breastfeeding and how it works. So I signed up for that and it was, yeah, a brilliant course. And then I went on after that as well to do her co-regulation course. As well. So I've kind of, yeah, covered the whole, the whole range.

[00:04:52] Emma Pickett: So, co-regulation, I'm gonna guess from the name, it's about your relationship with your child and, and how your calm and regulated state helps you to be a better parent slash mother. Is that, is that a summary? Yeah. 

[00:05:04] Amy Viniski: Yeah. I'd say that's a really good summary. Well, 

[00:05:06] Emma Pickett: that sounds very important. Let's all do that.

Yeah. Um, I've heard Anna speak, so Anna LaGrange, who, who started the mindful breastfeeding practice in school, um, has, has I, I've heard her talk in a couple of different settings and. And I think what's so lovely about Anna's message, and she's just got a lovely voice and a lovely presentation style anyway, what's so important about her message is that so often when we're breastfeeding, we're sort of fighting against all our natural instincts because society's busy giving us negative messages around meeting our babies' needs.

And the fact our babies shouldn't be independent, sorry, shouldn't be dependent on us, and shouldn't be sleeping with us and shouldn't be feeding that frequently. And as you've just demonstrated, sometimes those society's messages is literally voiced by those around us. And mindfulness kind of tells us to kind of focus on that inner voice and tap into those, those inner instincts.

And, and if you are calm, if you have that confidence, if you have that belief, you're more likely to get to a place of acceptance and being able to tune into your baby. I'm trying to summarize something that I'm not an expert in. Is that fair? 

[00:06:09] Amy Viniski: No, I think that's absolutely brilliant. And yes, spot on. We learn.

Very much. Some different techniques that we can share with mothers, breathing techniques, journaling, affirmations, all those things that can help support a mother in their breastfeeding journey alongside, you know, your positioning and your latch and all those, you know, yeah. Um, practical side of things as well.

So 

[00:06:34] Emma Pickett: things like breathing techniques. I think we sort of dismiss it as a bit, kind of ify, floofy, airy fairy, hippy dippy, but actually what's more important than, than breathing in a way that helps us to relax and gets the release of that oxytocin and, you know, the, exactly. So, so the meditation type, mindfulness stuff is, is so, so valuable.

Thank you, Amy. I'm gonna be really cheeky and you can tell me to get stuff, but I'd love at the end of the episode if you would guide us through some sort of mindfulness thing just for the last few minutes, especially for, of course, anyone that's experienced loss. So let's, let's put that at the end of the episode and, and have that as a resource that people can come back to.

Okay. So let's take off that professional hat for a moment and let's tap into your personal experiences. So you mentioned you're breastfeeding your son. Tell me about your son. How old are they today? 

[00:07:23] Amy Viniski: So he has just turned three. 

[00:07:25] Emma Pickett: Oh 

[00:07:26] Amy Viniski: yeah. 

[00:07:28] Emma Pickett: What, what's his name? 

[00:07:29] Amy Viniski: His name's Arthur. 

[00:07:30] Emma Pickett: Arthur. Fantastic name. So, so Arthur's breastfeeding journey sounded like it was, went pretty well at the beginning.

All, all to plan. 

[00:07:38] Amy Viniski: Yeah, we were very, I say the word lucky. I never had mastitis. I never had, I mean I had a little bit of engorgement, but nothing major. He latched quite well right at the start. We did skin, skin as soon as he was born. We had to have some tweaks. Obviously I was new I'd, I'd never really had experience of breastfeeding before.

I knew I wanted to do it and I'd kind of done all the courses to make sure that I was able, you know, to under have the knowledge to, to breastfe. But I didn't have experience. Um, a lot of my friends had formula fed. Um, I was one of the first out of a big group of my friends to have children. My mum formula fed myself.

Um, she had problems with breastfeeding, breastfeeding me, so I didn't really have that experience or kind of historical knowledge of it. It was all very new. So I did need to have some support with, um, yeah, when Arthur was breastfeeding and I think I was probably quite nervous and worried because I didn't have that experience.

So I was calling a lot of, um, peer supporters and, um, the infant feeding team to make sure I was doing everything that I needed to be doing quite early on. And that did help because he, yeah, he latched, he, his weight gain, um, nappy output, everything was, was brilliant. The only thing was that he liked to feed.

A lot. Okay. We had a lot of that cluster feeding going on in those early days. I am, and I think that's one thing that I look quite passionate about now, and I've read some of your articles as well, Emma, about those biological needs and how it's not every two to three hours that they feed in those early days.

And that's what I was told when I had, you know, the, the courses that I went on when I was pregnant. Um, so when it wasn't every two to three hours, it was quite a shock. So I worried that there was something wrong. Um, even though all the other kind of statistics of weight gain and nappy output were there.

So yeah, it, it's, it was one of those where. Yeah, I had to I to work through it myself because he, yeah, he fed, he fed a lot every 30 minutes. I think I only had a break when he needed his nappy changed and dad would take him up. 

[00:09:59] Emma Pickett: That's intense. Amy. So I'm not asking you to tell me about your breast size, but I'm wondering if maybe storage capacity might have been on the smaller side and, and although storage capacity isn't necessarily related to external breast appearance because it's about, you know, glandular tissue versus fat tissue.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:15] Amy Viniski: Yeah. 

[00:10:15] Emma Pickett: But people who ha do have smaller storage capacity will need to feed more regularly and will have just as much milk in 24 hours as anyone else, but may need to feed a bit more frequently. But as you say, if someone's told you in an antenatal class, babies feed every three hours, you feel like you're failing because new moms are so quick to assume that, you know, they're doing something wrong.

Um, so well done for following your instincts and well done, for pushing through that and, and, and I, and just finding advice and finding the right people to talk to, that that's all you can do. And, and, and that's led you to where you are today. How old was Arthur when you did your peer support training?

[00:10:48] Amy Viniski: He was two. 

[00:10:50] Emma Pickett: Okay, 

[00:10:50] Amy Viniski: so it was quite later. 

[00:10:51] Emma Pickett: And you did that online with the, with the A BM? Um, yeah. So the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers have a course that you can do remotely, um, and then you may, you may even choose to go on and become a breastfeeding counselor. And, and that training re, you know, requires phone calls and a few other bits and pieces and you can come to training days and, um, you might even be a volunteer on the national breastfeeding help plan one day.

But peer supporters, a BM, peer supporters are all over the country supporting in different groups. And, and you are supporting locally at the moment, Amy? 

[00:11:17] Amy Viniski: I am, yeah. So I also run, um, mindful Baby and me groups and I offer the breastfeeding support through that. I also used to run a baby and toddler group, um, at our local church, and I do my peer supporting there.

Unfortunately, my days as a teacher when my teacher has now changed, um, so I can't do that group anymore. But I was offering, yeah, my peer support. 

[00:11:43] Emma Pickett: You are, you are very busy. I dunno how you're managing to do it. Okay. Okay. So as you carried on breastfeeding, Arthur, what are you, are you currently breastfeeding today?

Amy, we haven't, I haven't actually asked you that question. How is breastfeeding going today with Arthur? What's the patterns of three-year-old Arthur? 

[00:11:57] Amy Viniski: So I actually have to say a big thank you to you for my continuing breastfeeding journey. When he got to about 16 months, I was feeling very overwhelmed with breastfeeding.

I was back at work and he was feeding a lot and I just thought, I can't do this anymore. We were kind of feeding a lot through the night because obviously I was working in the day she was making up for it in the evenings and yeah, I thought I'm done. I need to wean. And I found your, your podcast and I listened to weaning a booby monster and within probably five, 10 minutes of listening to that I realized I did not want to stop breastfeeding and I just needed to put some boundaries in place and find what worked for us.

Um, so. I decided that the best thing would be to kind of day wean, to give myself that, that break, and we would continue to breastfeed at night and that's what we're still still doing to this day. 

[00:12:54] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. I'm so glad you found, you found that balance really tough teaching. I, I used to be a teacher. I know how intense it can be to teach and then have someone demanding on you the minute you walk through the door is full on.

It is full on. So, so well done for finding the balance that works for you. So when you say feeding at night, give us a typical night for Arthur at the moment. So anyone feeding a three year-old understands what you're going through. 

[00:13:18] Amy Viniski: So right now we kind of got to the point where he is sleeping through.

It took us two and a half years to get to that point, but normally I'll feed him sleep. Roll away, do a little ninja roll, and he's normally down, down for about 10, 10 hours, 11 hours. Sometimes he will wake up around two, three in the morning and I just hear a mommy, where are you? And, um, go into his room and again, has a feed and back to sleep.

It is a comfort, a comfort feed. Now, I'm not sure how much milk is left, is left in there, but it it comforts him. It's a quick and easy tool to get him back to sleep. 

[00:13:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and the morning, any morning feeds or he's just sleeping out of bed in the morning? 

[00:14:03] Amy Viniski: Normally it's, yeah, it's a, a wake up. If he wakes up very early, say around the five o'clock mark, sometimes he will want a feed and he might doze a little bit after that.

But normally he just wakes up and he's ready to start his day. He wants to go downstairs and play with his monster trucks. 

[00:14:19] Emma Pickett: Monster truck is the Monster truck era. Yeah. Oh, we're okay. So it is lovely to hear that you're feeding to sleep and he is going 10 hours regularly. I mean, lots of people think if you feed to sleep, it will never happen.

They'll never sleep through. They'll always be dependent on you to transition between sleep cycles, but you've got a lovely example of a little bloke who can sleep beautifully having fed to sleep. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Amy. Okay, so let's talk about a more difficult conversation. Let's talk about your experience around loss.

So you've had Arthur. The months are pottering by, you decide you want to grow your family, what happens next? 

[00:14:53] Amy Viniski: So yeah, we'd made the choice back in. It was about April last year that we would like strive for a second. Um, I think that was the time that we felt ready. Arthur was starting to sleep better.

Things were getting easier. We felt like we could grow our family. I was on the, um, depo contraceptive injection. I've been on that since Arthur was born. So we made the choice that I wouldn't have my next depot and we just wait and see what happened, wait for my ovation to return, and we were just, yeah, it was quite easy breezy.

There was no rush. There was no panic. It was like, let's just see what happens in October. I ovulated. So we tried, and again, it was like, well, we'll see what happens. Who knows? After being on the depot, after having Arthur breastfeeding, we'll just see what happens. Um. And even though I say, I said that to myself, I was still in my brain that that two week wait I was like, I could be pregnant right now.

I could be pregnant right now. And I took an early pregnancy test, which came back negative. So I was like, oh, okay, maybe not this month. That's okay. Then it was a week later and I still hadn't got my period, so I was like, this is strange. I was like, I better take another pregnancy test, especially as it was my friend's 40th birthday that weekend.

So I was like, if we're going out, I definitely need to make sure I'm not pregnant. Um, if I might be having a few drinks, took another pregnancy test negative, so I assumed that my cycle was still a bit all over the place. Another week went past, still nothing. I was like, this is weird. I'm like three weeks late now.

So took another pregnancy test and it came back positive and I was like, oh, okay. This is strange. Wow. Okay. Um, told my husband, but then that evening I started spotting. 

[00:16:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:16:47] Amy Viniski: So I was like, Hmm, okay, it's likely to be a miscarriage. Phoned the GP the next day they called me in, checked me over, said it's a gray area.

We can't really tell what's happening right now. Um, they called the early pregnancy unit who said, doesn't sound like it's an ectopic, so it's a wait and see game. Um, and gave me the information that if I have any of the ectopic pregnancy symptoms, I need to go straight to. And so I was like, okay. Went home, just kind of waited to see what happened.

And a couple of days later, I started to feel very dizzy and faint. So I thought, Hmm, something's not right here. This doesn't feel like pregnancy symptoms. I'm still spotting. So I went to a and e. After a lovely seven hour wait in a NEI was then seen by the doctors at the early pregnancy unit who said that my, um, HCG levels were very low for somebody who should be six weeks pregnant.

I think it was only 15. So they asked me to come back in two days to have another blood test, um, which I did. And it showed that levels were rising, but not what they should be rising. They weren't doing the 60% doubling that they should be. 

[00:18:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:18:02] Amy Viniski: Then it was a month of in and outta hospital blood tests, scans because I could not figure out what was going on.

[00:18:09] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's very stressful. Amy, I don't mean to interrupt you. I'm just aware what a, what a long time a month is when you are caring for Arthur and you, and it's just completely uncertain as to what's going on. That's a lot of unknown. We don't often hear stories where there's just that so much mystery around it.

[00:18:25] Amy Viniski: No, 

[00:18:25] Emma Pickett: that must have been really tough. 

[00:18:26] Amy Viniski: Even the nurses back again, we dunno what's going on. It kind of became a bit of a running joke in a way that we just have no idea it was those three options of they're obviously a baby, they're somewhere, and it could be that it's just, it's not growing as it should and eventually it's going to sadly miscarry.

It could be an ectopic, um, or it could just be my dates wrong because of my cycle being a bit all over the place after the depot. Um, but then sadly, uh, it was a month later, finally, it was Christmas Eve actually there. I had my neck scan and they found their ectopic pregnancy. 

[00:19:06] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's a long time to have an undiagnosed ectopic pregnancy, Amy.

Wow. Were you experiencing pain or hadn't got to that point yet? 

[00:19:14] Amy Viniski: Funny enough, the pain I was experiencing was on the opposite side, and it turned out that was a cyst. 

[00:19:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:19:20] Amy Viniski: Um, I wasn't actually experiencing pain from the ectopic, just a bit of dizziness, spotting, lightheadedness. Um, I was like, I'm not, I'm not having surgery.

I Christmas Eve, I'm not doing that to my, to myself, to my little boy. Um, so they agreed that I could go home and on the 27th I had to come back for another blood test. If my levels had risen again, I'd need surgery. If not, um, it might be the ectopic is sorting itself out, so I could just do kind of expectant management.

Came back on the 27th and delayed rhythm, so I had to go in for surgery. 

[00:20:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh. So surgery when you've got a 2-year-old, I dunno how old Arthur was at that point, is tough. Anyway, it's tough in any situation. Adding on the extra element of the loss and all the emotional turmoil that you've been through.

That must've been intense, Amy. Really tough. 

[00:20:20] Amy Viniski: Yeah. Yeah, it was quite difficult. Um, it was day surgery and I remember going in and the nurses saying to me, they might want to keep you in overnight. And I remember saying to them, but I have a little boy at home, um, and he breastfeeds and he needs me. And I remember them asking, oh, how old is he?

And I said, two. And you could see them internally rolling their eyes. And I was like, oh, okay. That's interesting. 'cause obviously if it was a, a smaller baby, they would be like, okay, we need to make this happen. But you could tell they weren't really acknowledging the need of breastfeeding beyond infancy.

That was kind of my first experience of professionals. Not really understanding the importance. 

[00:21:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry. And what did happen? Did you have to stay in or were you able to 

[00:21:10] Amy Viniski: go? No, I was able to go home. Um, and yeah, breastfeed my son to sleep that night. 

[00:21:17] Emma Pickett: Aw, bless. I'm so glad. And how did that feel to be breastfeeding him?

Lying down, having had that day and gone through all that experience, 

[00:21:25] Amy Viniski: that one actually felt very comforting. I think after everything that had happened, I felt like I hadn't been as present as I should have been with him for that month because I was so in and out of hospital and not knowing what's going on.

Wasn't sure if I had a baby or I didn't have a baby. It was actually a real comfort just lying with him. And I remember thinking, it's over now. It's done right. I can, yeah, I've got you. I'm gonna be okay. Type thing. It was a comfort for that time though, not as the. Comforting trying to roll out of bed after having surgery.

[00:22:01] Emma Pickett: Oh gosh, no. 

[00:22:02] Amy Viniski: Ninja away. 

[00:22:03] Emma Pickett: I had imagine your ninja role was a bit compromised. 

[00:22:05] Amy Viniski: Yeah, that's just a little bit, 

[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: yeah. So I'm a bit of a dimwit when it comes to different surgeries and things, but let me just ask you, does that mean that you had to have an ovary removed? 

[00:22:16] Amy Viniski: I had to have a fallopian tube removed.

Okay. My right apian sheep. 

[00:22:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. And the other side has had cyst. 

[00:22:23] Amy Viniski: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Emma Pickett: And that was discovered around the same time. 

[00:22:26] Amy Viniski: Yeah. And they said, um, which I didn't know about that actually when you have a period or when you have a pregnancy cyst grows to support the pregnancy until it's no longer needed and then it kind of collapses in on itself and they can be quite painful.

[00:22:43] Emma Pickett: Crikey, I've 

[00:22:44] Amy Viniski: never 

[00:22:44] Emma Pickett: even heard 

[00:22:44] Amy Viniski: about that. No, I didn't. No, I had no idea. So yeah. 

[00:22:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that means that going forward to get pregnant again. You're relying on the, the remaining connected ovary, is that right? 

[00:22:58] Amy Viniski: Again, there's something and another myth that I didn't, I always thought if I had my fallopian tube removed, then I would only be able to get pregnant from my left ovary.

That's actually a myth, and I'm not sure how the science works, but the left fallopian tube can actually pick up my right ovary still. So I could still get pregnant from both ovaries. 

[00:23:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. Mind blown. I know. I had no idea that was an option. Um, no, I'm gonna trust you, Amy, and I'm not gonna Google it because you've obviously, you've lived through this and you experienced that.

Wow. That's pretty damn amazing. Okay, so, so both ovaries can send an egg to the other fallopian tube. 

[00:23:36] Amy Viniski: Yeah. I still, I blaze my mind. I can't figure out the science of it either, but that's what my consultant told me, so. 

[00:23:42] Emma Pickett: Wow. Okay. Okay. 

[00:23:43] Amy Viniski: Yeah, 

[00:23:44] Emma Pickett: you can tell I'm a lactation consultant and not in anything else.

'cause this is all brand new to me. Okay. Well that's good news, isn't it? That's, that's what we want to hear. We don't want to be told that you've, you've lost the chance of producing eggs on that side. And so what are you and your partner thinking for the future? You're going to carry on conceiving at that point?

Or did you feel like you needed to have a break? What were you thinking would happen next? 

[00:24:06] Amy Viniski: We decided just to take a little break, um, just a couple of months to get my body, you know, back to normal, I guess, as. For want of a better term to get my cycle back. 'cause after the surgery I had some bleeding. So yeah, we said we wait a couple of, a couple of months and make sure my had, uh, again, for a better word, a normal period.

And so we did, um, we tried again and same thing happened. I took an early pregnancy test and that was negative, so I thought, oh, okay, not pregnant this time. Um, and then I think I was a day late, maybe two days late, so I took another pregnancy test and that came back as positive. So I was really happy. I was like, this is it.

This is going to be, this is our time now. Um, but sadly, I was think I was only five weeks and it was a chemical pregnancy. Okay. And I lost that one. 

[00:25:08] Emma Pickett: So obviously this is the area where you've been doing your research. How do you define a chemical, chemical pregnancy versus an early loss? 'cause five weeks feels a while for me.

That doesn't quite sound like, you know, one miss period and we're talking, you know, 10 days, 14 days. Do you know what the definition of a chemical pregnancy is? Obviously that's your term that you're using and you have every right to use that term. But 

[00:25:31] Amy Viniski: I that I have looked it up and I have Googled it, but I can't quite remember what the exact phrasing is.

[00:25:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. Here I am getting my phone. Yeah, it's a live Google. Here we go. Let's see. Um, what the, what this they're saying. 'cause um, five weeks feels like a long time for someone to think that they are going to be having a healthy pregnancy and then to, to lose, 

[00:25:53] Amy Viniski: I suppose with the, because it goes from your first period.

So technically I would only have found out I was about four weeks when I found out I was pregnant. Okay. So it was only a week. 

[00:26:05] Emma Pickett: Okay, so this is, um, Mr. Google who we must always take with a pinch of salt, but apparently it's before the fifth week an an early miscarriage that happens before the fifth week, so, 

[00:26:17] Amy Viniski: so I 

[00:26:18] Emma Pickett: think, 

[00:26:18] Amy Viniski: so I was dead on, it was literally week five, so I think they still classed it as a chemical.

[00:26:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. It says before the embryo is visible on ultrasound scan. 

[00:26:27] Amy Viniski: Yeah. So that would've been, yeah. 

[00:26:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.

So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.

There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10.

So because of your previous loss, did you go through a phase of thinking, I'm not going to think I'm pregnant, I'm gonna wait and see, or did you allow yourself to think, Hey, I'm pregnant, it's gonna happen? What kind of mindset did you go through? 

[00:28:07] Amy Viniski: I, I was the second one, I was like, I'm going to enjoy this because we said that we are two is our number.

So I was like, this could be the last time I am pregnant. So I really wanted to enjoy every kind of second of it. I mean, I only had a week of being that way, so I was very much like, no, I'm going to embrace every week. And I got all the apps again like I do with my son and yeah. Had all the little week by week up of what, you know, the size is.

So I was very much, I'm going, yeah, to embrace this. I didn't have any pregnancy symptoms, um, which at the time I didn't really think much of because I didn't really, with, with Arthur. But now looking back, it, yeah, that was probably because the, my h CG levels weren't, weren't probably as high as they should have been.

[00:28:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Pregnancy symptoms are a mysterious thing because I think sometimes when you're parenting a toddler, you haven't got time to tune into your body in the same way that you had first time round. And, and I think lots of people don't notice pregnancy symptoms, especially if you're breastfeeding as well.

It just may not be on your radar. How are you feeling about breastfeeding at this moment? Did you go through any phase of thinking, uhoh, my breastfeeding might have contributed to this? Did anyone say anything about that? What, what was your thinking around that? 

[00:29:24] Amy Viniski: No, I think there was a, a, a slight moment where I thought, I wonder, but then my kind logical brain went, no, I, I, you know, I've read, I read about it and the myth, and also I'm, I wasn't.

Breastfeeding all the time. It was, you know, just those once in the evenings and No, no, nobody else mentioned it. I think it's not that I hide that, I still breastfeed Arthur obviously I'm saying on this podcast, but it's not something that I talk about a lot with family and and friends. So they probably didn't even think about making, making that connection.

[00:30:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, as you say, breastfeeding once and maybe not even again for several days overnight. You know, if he's going regularly through the night, you really are desperate feeding once in 24 hours. And if you say milk production is not significant, even the school of people who like to feel breastfeeding does make a difference to facility, would be hard pressed to argue that Arthur's patterns would've been likely to make a difference.

So in between your pregnancies, had you, your cycle had returned, were you somebody who tracked cycles and counted days and counted ovulation days? So you were happy about the length of your cycle, there wasn't any question about, you know, the, there being a shorter gap between ovulation and day one of the next cycle or anything?

[00:30:45] Amy Viniski: No, I was quite, I was quite regular. There was a few days variation, but nothing. Yeah, nothing crazy. 

[00:30:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that's, that's, that's second loss. Um, just, I don't want to sort of bring you back to a difficult moment, but I think it's helpful for people to understand. Um, you began spotting again, or, or did you, you were having blood tests.

What, how did you discover that you'd lost the pregnancy again? 

[00:31:10] Amy Viniski: So I had a, I'D called when I found out I was pregnant. I called the early pregnancy unit as soon as I found out because they like to get you in for an early scan to make sure there is an ectopic. So I'd had, I got one booked in for seven weeks.

Um, and then it was, I was literally the, the fifth week of my pregnancy from the last mens initial period I started spotting. And I try not to panic because. I know that spotting can be part of pregnancy. Um, but by the next day it was heavier and I thought, Hmm, okay, this, this doesn't look good. So I took a pregnancy test and it came back negative, straight away.

[00:31:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. So 

[00:31:53] Amy Viniski: I knew then that what was happening. 

[00:31:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned that that first breastfeed after you got home from surgery and how that felt like it brought you a comfort. Was that still the case, carrying on breastfeeding through this loss as well? 

[00:32:08] Amy Viniski: Not as much. This one was a bit more raw, this one, because again, we'd only had a week to think about it, but in that week, me and my husband had already started talking about, you know, what we were going to do and how we were going to fit, you know, a crib in next to our bed and all those little things.

And I remember talking to him about breastfeeding this time and that I wasn't going to let you know those outer voices. Get to me and I was going to be a lot calmer with it and enjoy it because I felt that some of the joy of breastfeeding Arthur was robbed because I was constantly worried that I wasn't being enough for him.

So I was this time, you know, and again, you, you don't know every baby's different. Every breastfeeding journey is different. But I was that I was having that positivity of this is going to be a lovely breastfeeding journey with this baby, and then it's gone just like that. It's kind of ripped away from you.

So this time when I was breastfeeding, Arthur thought it was a mixed emotion of I have still got you and I love you and you're my safe space right now. Two, I may only have you and I may never have that feeling of breastfeeding a baby again. And so it was very mixed emotions that time around. 

[00:33:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can imagine just that really poignant moment of, gosh, this may be the only person I breastfeed, and that's very overwhelming.

So your loss is really crystallized in that, that feeling of Yeah. Of, of missing out is, is very, very hard. Yeah. How, how is your partner through this process? I don't, obviously you can't necessarily speak for them, but how, how, how are they feeling? 

[00:33:53] Amy Viniski: I think sadness, definitely sadness, but I also, I think when it's kind of not physically happening to you, I think he was able to have step away a little bit mindset wise.

He was absolute fantastic support. My husband, he's just been brilliant through the pregnancy losses, but also breastfeeding Arthur, he was fantastic in those, those early days, he would support me. He would cut up, cut up my food for me when I was trying to eat one handed, he would do the nappy changes for me to give me you.

That break. And yeah, he was fantastic. He always has been a brilliant support with all of it, and I think he definitely felt it. But, and I think with the ectopic especially because he, he saw me come to go in and out hospital coming back every day with no answers and he found that that hard. But I think with this second, the second pregnancy, because it was so quick, because we only found out and then we lost it, it wasn't probably as hard for him as it was for me.

[00:35:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So you carry on breastfeeding, Arthur, you carry, are you working at, at this point? Are you teaching? 

[00:35:08] Amy Viniski: I am, yeah. Still teaching. It actually happened when I was at school 

[00:35:13] Emma Pickett: the first too. Oh, did you? Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. That's horrible, isn't it? And you've gotta go back in a classroom and be peppy and talking to 30 little people.

That's, that's really, really hard. Did you have any time off work or did you, you just back into work? 

[00:35:28] Amy Viniski: For the second one? No, with my ectopic I did, um, to physically recover from surgery, but also emotionally, like you say, I was, I was teaching early as children at that time as well. So you really have to be on your, your a game.

You can't hide away when you're teaching them. So I took, I think I was two, three weeks after I had my surgery. I had time off. I did go back initially and it was too soon. I, again, when you are with little people, there's time that once you need to be up and down bending, getting on the floor with them.

And I just physically couldn't and I felt like I was putting my recovery back. So I did take, yeah, another two to three weeks off after that. But with this second pregnancy, no. I, um, yeah, I just had it, the, the miscarriage over the weekend was back in work the following week. 

[00:36:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh. Did anyone at work know what you'd gone through?

[00:36:24] Amy Viniski: They did. Yeah. I, um, I told my deputy head and the team I was working with that I was pregnant just because I knew I'd be having appointments and I had, yeah, I, I was nervous about this pregnancy as well as excited. So I had let them them know. And then when I started spotting, I told, I actually told my teaching assistant I came back from, from the lunch, from being in the toilet and said to her, and she was brilliant.

She's so kind. 

[00:36:58] Emma Pickett: Teaching assistants are just fantastic. Aren't they bloody love teaching assistants. They, they look after us as much as they look after the kids. Yeah. And they're just such a core part of making schools work well. 

[00:37:09] Amy Viniski: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for sharing that, Amy. So days go by, that cycle's finished.

That dream has gone. Um, yeah. What are you thinking next? 

[00:37:21] Amy Viniski: I was in a bit of a blur. I wasn't quite sure where to go next after that. So me and my husband kind of had a conversation and we said again, we put it on pause for a little bit. And then I had my first period after that, and I dunno, I don't if it was hormones or emotions, but I was like, I want to try again.

I want I, I, I'm ready. I I want to have another baby. Let's do this. Um, so we tried for another couple of months and this time nothing happened. I didn't get pregnant and it was the first time that we haven't, every single time we've tried, we've fallen pregnant. So that was a bit of a shock and I thought, okay, maybe it's gone from ectopic miscarriage to now I can't get pregnant.

Um, so I said to my husband, right, we are just gonna forget about it. I'm gonna stop tracking ovulation. I'm gonna stop tracking everything and just forget about it. And. I remember one morning, it was probably about a week before my period was due, and I had the sorest boobs. My breasts were so sore, and I said to Alex, I like, this is weird.

I wonder. I waited a few days and then took a pregnancy test and came up as positive and I was like, okay, this is it. Um, because it come up so quickly, positive, um, I called the, um, early pregnancy units and booked in for a scan. And this time they've actually booked me in for an earlier one at six weeks because I was nervous.

This time, there wasn't the positivity, I was quite anxious over it. So they booked me in for that. And then a couple of days later, I started getting pain on my left side. 

[00:39:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. So 

[00:39:14] Amy Viniski: I panicked. 

[00:39:15] Emma Pickett: So someone who's had an ectopic pregnancy in the past has an increased risk of having it again in the future. And and why is that?

Do we, do we know where that is? 

[00:39:23] Amy Viniski: I actually don't know. No, I dunno. The science behind that, I just know that's the 

[00:39:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. And that's why they were listening to you and checking you, and that's 

[00:39:32] Amy Viniski: to state your course and they scan you at six weeks. Yeah. They always book you in after you've had an ectopic, you have to have an early, earlier scan, so, okay.

[00:39:39] Emma Pickett: I can't imagine Amy, what it felt like to have that pain, uh, and thinking third bloody time. Yeah. What, uh, you are you kidding me? This is, that's just, just, I mean, pregnancy loss is horribly unfair in any situation. But gosh, you've been through a lot. So, so you called the unit again and said, this is what's happening.

What happened next? 

[00:39:59] Amy Viniski: So they had me in that same day, which was fantastic. They brought me straight in. They took my bloods, which I can't remember the exact reading. But it was high. It was a lot higher than what it was before. They said that's positive. And they said there's no point scanning now. 'cause I was like four weeks, not even four weeks I think at the time.

Um, they said we're not gonna see anything but we'll take your bloods again to see if they're rising. 'cause that would be a good indication whether or not it's ectopic. So I had had the bloods taken and they had o more than doubled. So again, really, really positive. So I thought, okay, this is, this is really good news.

They brought my scan forward and I think I had it at five and a half weeks and they were able to see that there was a gestational sac and it was in obviously the right place. They couldn't see the oak sac, the fetal pole to say there was a baby in there. So it was, um, pregnancy of unknown viability at the time, but they were very positive that, yeah, it was looking good.

So they booked me a scan for three weeks later. I was so anxious this time around. I really felt it. I had a lot of pregnancy symptoms. I felt incredibly sick. I was bloated. My breasts were incredibly sore. Feeding Arthur started to become quite challenging in the evenings because of 

[00:41:25] Emma Pickett: pain, nipple pain, 

[00:41:26] Amy Viniski: and breast pain when he latched.

It was the first time that I, I've truly understood why people stop breastfeeding when they have pain, when latching, because my goodness me, it was so painful and I was thinking to myself, I'm probably gonna have to stop breath if this continues. I'm probably gonna have to cut my, my journey short with Arthur because, yeah, I can't go on like this.

But there was just anxiety constantly around. Every time I went to the toilet, I panicked. I, I, I was, I was at the point where I was trying not to go to the toilet because I didn't want to go and see if there was any blood. 

[00:42:00] Emma Pickett: Oh, Amy. Yeah, 

[00:42:01] Amy Viniski: it was, yeah. And. In the end, I made the decision to book a private scan.

I think I was six, seven weeks because I was really c anxious. So we went for the private scan and they did see, I want to say the yolk sack that time. So I was like, okay, this is good news. Things are progressing. But I was still really nervous. So the following week I booked another one. Um, and that time around they saw the feature pole yack and there was a heartbeat.

And that was just the most wonderful thing. Seeing, yeah, seeing that little heartbeat. And I thought, okay, this is it. Now we're, we're on track. Then I had a scan booked with the NHS, the one at the EPU week or. Um, and yeah, I was feeling, I still had that anxiety, but they found the heartbeat. And I know that after they found a heartbeat, the risk of miscarriage reduces.

Yeah, it's still there, but it reduces. So I was feeling quite positive, but still anxious. Went to the, um, one at the NHS and they found the oak sac. They found the fetal pole, but they couldn't see a heartbeat. And I said, well, I've, I've had, um, a private scan. They saw the heartbeat a week or so, a couple of weeks ago.

Um, and she was like, oh, okay, let me just go get my senior. And she had to go out. And I tell you what, Emma, those few minutes that she was gone, felt like, oh God, God. Or the, like, a eternity came back and they were scanning around for ages. And I said to my husband, it's, it's a miscarriage. I know it's, and then eventually I heard him say, oh, there.

And I was like, what? And he was like, it's there, there, it's um, and I was like, okay, okay. He found it. He was like, yeah, I think the baby was just like hiding behind the yo sack, but it, it's, it's there. And yeah, I'm, I'm sure that's the heartbeat. So I was like, Hey, sigh of relief. We get to leave and I'm walking out and I hear the sonographer talk to the nurse and say, yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the heartbeat.

[00:44:19] Emma Pickett: Oh, what? 

[00:44:21] Amy Viniski: And my heart went, what? And I spoke to the nurse. I was like, are we def Like we are sure. She's like, yeah, yeah, it's all good. There's your hubby. And she gave me the leaflet of pregnancy, of viable origin. And you can be discharged from us and you can go to a dating scan at 13 weeks. And yeah, everything's great.

But in my mind, everything was not great. Um, I could not get outta my head what had just happened. So I booked in a private scan for, that was the Friday. I booked in a private scan for the Monday. 

[00:44:52] Emma Pickett: They'd heard you, they knew you were in the room when they said that they must have realized you were in earshot.

[00:44:56] Amy Viniski: No, I don't think they did because I was in the scanning room and they were in the nurses like stationy bit. Okay. And it was only because I came out as he was saying it, that I heard it probably should have shut a door, if you're gonna say that, but 

[00:45:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:45:10] Amy Viniski: yeah. 

[00:45:10] Emma Pickett: And you're still in a lot of pain breastfeeding Arthur at this point.

How's the 

[00:45:13] Amy Viniski: breastfeeding 

[00:45:13] Emma Pickett: going? 

Oh 

[00:45:14] Amy Viniski: yeah. Yeah. Still having all the pregnancy symptoms. Still struggling with the breastfeeding. Yeah. Having all that still, so, yeah, I, I couldn't get on my head, so I booked the, the, um, Monday scan and I said to my husband, you don't need to come with me. I was like, I'm, I, uh, I was trying to be that positivity of it's going to be okay.

This is just to clarify that they are right. Just to put my mind at ease. Everything's going to be fine. So you don't need to come with me. I'll go on my own. It's fine. And I'll let you know, you know, send you a picture of the baby's heartbeat when we're all done and went in there and she did the tummy scan, first of all.

So I would've been eight, nine weeks. So really you should be able to see something at that point through, through the Yeah. Stomach, which is like, hmm, I think I see a heartbeat, but I'm not sure. I just wanna check with the, um, the transvaginal one. Is that okay? And I was like, yeah, that's fine. I've had so many of those, doesn't even bother me anymore.

Um, and then she said, do you mind if I just ask my, um, colleague to chaperone? I was like, okay. And in my head I was going, well, of course, because I'm on my own and she's obviously doing a private procedure. They're gonna want someone in there now. I think it was probably because she was about to give me some bad news.

[00:46:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:46:35] Amy Viniski: So went to the toilet, emptied my bladder, came back in and she did the transvaginal exam. Uh, again, it felt like an eternity. It was probably only a couple of minutes. It felt a lot longer. And she just said, I'm really sorry. There's no heartbeat. And with that, her colleague just grabbed my hand. She was fantastic.

Um, and yeah, she's like, okay, what do you do? You want us to ring EPU for you? Because obviously you've gotta go up there and get this sorted. Um, and they tried to get, tried to get, um, their hold of them and they couldn't. So I left a message with the, the receptionist who said she'd call me back. I went home, called my husband and let him know that yeah, we dust another one.

Um, and they finally, I got a call back from the EP at 4:00 PM that, that day. And I, I understand it, but it was quite, it was hard because she said, we can't take a private scan. We have to scan you, but we can't see you until Thursday. And this was Monday. So I had to then wait three days to go. I had to have another scan where they confirmed there was no heartbeat, and then discussed my options as to what I wanted to do.

[00:47:52] Emma Pickett: Oh, Amy, I just can't imagine after all the anxiety you've been through to have this finally as the result that's just so incredibly painful. And, and I, and I, I'm curious to know whether the tiny part of you lives with false hope, like when you're going for that final, final scan, was a little bit of you thinking maybe the private people were wrong, maybe they're gonna be finding a heartbeat.

[00:48:12] Amy Viniski: Yeah, absolutely. There was absolutely was. 'cause you still, you still find out, hold onto that hope. And even after the, the sonograph for the NHS did it, she said, would you like a second opinion? And I nearly said, yes, please. I was like, no, don't be silly. You've had now three people kind of tell you there's, there's no heartbeat.

So Yeah. 

[00:48:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh, what a rollercoaster of awfulness. And, and I'm so, so sorry that, that you went through that experience. And so this, what month are we talking about now? This is, 

[00:48:48] Amy Viniski: so this was July. 

[00:48:49] Emma Pickett: July this year. July, July, 2025. Okay. 

[00:48:52] Amy Viniski: Had ECT topic in November, December, 2024. 

[00:48:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:48:58] Amy Viniski: Nine chemical pregnancy miscarriage in March, and then this one in July.

[00:49:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'm so sorry. So what happened next with the EPU? They, obviously you're under their care there. Mm-hmm. Supporting you with the next steps. Did you, were you just waiting now to see what would happen? 

[00:49:17] Amy Viniski: Yeah, so I go into the room afterwards and see a nurse and he gives me hook and down and says, these are your options now, could do expected management and just wait to see if it sorts itself out, which said, I don't advise.

Um, and which I didn't want to do. And then the other two options were medical management or surgical management. I'd done surgery. I didn't want to do surgery again. We also had just had my, um, my husband's American, he's in the um, US Air Force and his sister and niece had just flown in that day to come and visit us for two weeks.

So I was like, I, I don't want to be in pain bedridden or anything like that. So I chose medical management. 

[00:50:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. So after that, where does that leave you? I mean, you are presumably, you are now transferred to a team that are gonna help you investigate what's been going on. Am I right in thinking after three losses people pay a bit more attention to what's happening?

Yeah. What's your current, the current care that you're being given? 

[00:50:21] Amy Viniski: So right now I am under Edin Brooks Hospital with their recurrent loss clinic, unfortunately. As with the NHS, the wait times are very long. I've had my initial blood tests and kind of history, you know, medical history appointment, but I'm still waiting an appointment to see a consultant.

[00:50:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:50:43] Amy Viniski: To discuss next, next steps. 

[00:50:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. And in this period, are you thinking if I get pregnant again, that's, that's okay? Or are you sort of protecting yourself from that? I'm just wondering how, what you kind of go through. 

[00:50:56] Amy Viniski: Yeah. 

[00:50:57] Emma Pickett: In this period 

[00:50:58] Amy Viniski: after the last one, the medical management was quite horrible. Um, I didn't quite realize what the process involved and that really took it out of me.

And especially afterwards with breastfeeding Arthur. I think that was the, the hardest one because we'd seen the heartbeat and we thought, we thought this was happening. And having that, those symptoms and having that feeling of. That pain when he was latching. It just made me remember that I was pregnant, um, a few days after I'd had my medical management and he latched on.

It didn't hurt. It was fine. And it was that kind of reminder of you just, yeah. Once again, lost. Lost another, another baby. Yeah. And once again, you don't know if, if you are going or I'm ever going to have that again. So, like I said to my husband, I can't do this anymore. I can't put myself through it. I, I feel like I've spent the last year either feeling poorly from being pregnant or feeling poorly from having to go through procedures to not be pregnant.

And I can't go through another anxiety of being pregnant. I need a break. So we've kind of decided right now to, to put things on hold. 

[00:52:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think everybody would understand that. It's so hard to imagine going through these losses and still being there for Arthur and being able to give yourself to him and, and regulate him.

And so I'm just grateful that he's a 10 hour sleeper and I don't mean that flippantly. I'm just really pleased that you are not being woken up every 90 minutes all through the night and having to deal with that on top of teaching on top of these losses. So you've obviously made a decision to carry on breastfeeding him and, and that feels like the right thing to do.

Have you got any thoughts around what his journey might look like towards the end, or you're just letting him take the lead? 

[00:52:54] Amy Viniski: At the moment, I'm letting him take the, the lead. There was a time where he, he very much reduced his breastfeeding even at nighttime and sometimes he just wanted to cuddle to sleep and I thought, oh, okay, this might be the end of our journey, but then.

The next week he, he picks it up again. So we're kind of in that moment where sometimes he breastfeeds a lot or a lot for him and then other times it's not as much. So I am not really sure where, where we're going with it. I don't have any plans to parent led weed him at the minute. I think after everything that we've been through, that's kind of our special bond at the minute that feels right for us.

And again, he falls outta sleep so much quicker breastfeeding. So why would I take that tool away? Yeah. So yeah, we're, we'll continue and we'll see how, how things progress. 

[00:53:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I'm gonna ask you a question, and it may not be right, but I'd imagine if you did parent led wean. And then regret that that's another loss in a way and not something you wanna put yourself through.

[00:54:07] Amy Viniski: Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:54:08] Emma Pickett: You, you'd need to be very certain, very, very certain if that was something you wanted to do. So, so you talked about how at moments breastfeeding was physically painful. Sometimes it was emotionally painful because it was bringing to the front of your mind, reflections around your breastfeeding journey through your life and you know, a future baby, or not a future baby.

But it also gave you some comfort as well. There was also those, those feeds themselves were comforting. Tell, tell me a bit more about that. 

[00:54:35] Amy Viniski: I think it's just that, that closeness that you have with your little one, knowing that you're still special in, in someone's someone's life, that you're still needed.

I think when you are, you are pregnant, your whole world changes. Okay? You can't drink, you can't eat certain foods. You have to be careful with. You are lifting and doing. You are very much in sole charge of this little thing inside you that's growing and when that's taken away, there's that huge loss around it.

So kind of still having Arthur needing, needing me for something. I mean, obviously he's three. He needs me for a lot of things, but having that special bond gave me that comfort and knowing that I still still have a something. 

[00:55:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You absolutely do. I'm so sorry, Amy, that, that you've been going through all this and I really, really hope that you get the right, the right answers and the right treatment and, and you messaged me one day and go, guess what?

Um, that's what I'm gonna be looking forward to. Um, I, I said it earlier on in our conversation that I would love you to finish with doing a mindful exercise. Now that was a bit cheeky of me 'cause I didn't even warn you. I was gonna ask you for that. It's fine. Um, is that something you're up for? 

[00:55:45] Amy Viniski: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:55:46] Emma Pickett: I'm just wondering who, who the audience might be. It might be a mom who's still breastfeeding and hoping to conceive again, it might be a mom who's breastfeeding and has had some losses. What would you like, who would you like to be speaking to? 

[00:55:58] Amy Viniski: I think what would be really nice is to do just some mindful breathing.

And that can go out for anybody. It can be somebody who just needs a quiet moment, who has experienced a loss and just needs to take some moment just to breathe and connect with the world. Or it could be a breastfeeding mother who hasn't had experienced loss and that she just needs. Have some breathing time because their baby is, is wanting to latch every, every 30 minutes.

I think a nice breathing exercise could be good for the wider community. 

[00:56:30] Emma Pickett: Sounds good, right? Take it, take it away. I'm sure that's not how you're meant to start. Or mindful. Alexa, take it away, Amy. 

[00:56:36] Amy Viniski: So we are just going to do some mindful, mindful breaths. Mindful where we are going to breathe in for five, but then we're going to do a breathing out for eight.

So when we breathe out for eight, we're really focusing on our abdom. So we might put our hand on our chest and our hand on our stomach, and as we breathe in, we can feel it expand. And as we breathe out, we can feel we're letting go. And like blowing that bubble and letting go of any anxiety, stress or feelings and just connecting with ourselves.

So hand on our chest and on our stomach and we're going to breathe in or five or three. Two, one and out, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and out, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, out, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And that should, it's just such a nice common thing. It takes a bit of practice with that, breathing out for that longer, longer amount of time.

And it's something that I do with my mom's. In my baby group. And we do a lot of practicing with that because once you've got that nailed for want of a better term, um, it's a really, yeah, really nice way just to comfort whatever you are going through. Even, doesn't even have to say, have to be breastfeeding.

It could be dealing with an emotional toddler. I use that a lot. 

[00:58:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And can, can toddlers do that? I mean, if a toddler's having a meltdown, could you help them or is that, or is it too difficult for them to breathe out for that length of time? 

[00:58:43] Amy Viniski: That length of time is probably a little bit too long for say, a, a 3-year-old.

Um, when I do it with Arthur, we kind of just, we do smaller, smaller breaths. We started off with just blowing our anxiety away. Whenever he got cross or angry, I just say Blow, blow away. Like you're blowing, blowing a bubble. Um, and then we've kind of moved on to more breathing in and out. Um, and I use, I dunno what they're called, but they're like the balls that you can kind of express out and then express in.

[00:59:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:59:12] Amy Viniski: And yeah, that helps with him under standing, what his tummy is during, at the time. 

[00:59:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Amy, for sharing that and, and for sharing your story today. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you wanted to make sure we covered? 

[00:59:26] Amy Viniski: No, the most important thing that I really just wanna get across to anybody who's going through pregnancy losses, that you're not alone.

It's like I said at the start of this episode, it can be such a lonely journey, especially in those early few weeks if you haven't told anybody you're pregnant. Because in society nowadays is you don't tell anyone before 12 weeks. And a lot of people don't. And then when they miscarry, they're on their own and they don't want to tell people and they, they don't wanna talk about it.

Um, and it's just, it's so, it's so lonely and so sad. And there are charities out there. You have Tommy's and Sam's who can offer support and counseling. So even if you don't want to reach out to friends and family, they're there as well. So it's just getting, getting it out there and just talking about. It more because I feel, again, nobody talks about it.

It's one of those silent things. You broke your leg. We hope people would know if you go into surgery for ectopic pregnancy, often people don't, don't say they don't tell people about it, and it's something you just kind of hide under the carpet. I just want to encourage people to talk more about it, and since I've kind of opened up about my losses, people that I know have said, oh yeah, I had, I had a miscarriage or I had this, and it's like, wow.

Never knew. I've known you 10 years and I never knew you had this. So yeah, I think it's just trying to open up those conversations more. 

[01:00:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, you've definitely modeled that today, Amy, sharing your story, so I'm very, 

[01:00:57] Amy Viniski: very 

[01:00:57] Emma Pickett: grateful. Thank you. Good luck for the future. 

[01:01:01] Amy Viniski: Thank you so much, Emma.

[01:01:06] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.