Caprice's story - Black Mothers Matter

Today, I’m talking to the brilliant Caprice Fox, an educator and advocate from Bristol, about her experiences and advocacy work related to breastfeeding and inclusivity. We discuss the importance of representation and inclusive practices in breastfeeding campaigns and the damage of micro-agressions. Caprice shares her personal story and talks about her co-parenting journey with her wife, Holly. We also talk about her work with Black Mothers Matter and the importance of addressing systemic racism and inclusion in healthcare and education.

You can find Caprice on Instagram @‌the.fox.family 

You can find her website here: Caprice Fox Ed

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Black Mothers Matter https://www.blackmothersmatter.org/

Spectrum Lactation Image library https://spectrumlactation.org/

@‌midwifekeelie 

@‌ash_bainbridge

@‌novareidofficial

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really honored to be joined by Caprice Fox. So Caprice is an educator, she's an advocate, she's a consultant, she's a facilitator, and lots of other things we'll talk about today from Bristol in the southwest. I first heard to speak at a breastfeeding study day in Bristol a few months ago, but I first came across her many years ago as part of a campaign for the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, called Feed On, which was about breastfeeding outside the home. In fact, I've looked at the lovely image of Caprice feeding, standing in front of Clifton Suspension Bridge probably hundreds of times in the last, uh, few years, and it feels very good to be looking at her face closeup right now. And we're gonna be talking about Caprice's Feeding journey and her work as an advocate and a supporter of others.

Thank you so much for coming today, Caprice. I really appreciate it. Tell me about the feed on campaign. What do you remember about that day and how do you feel looking at that picture now? 

[00:01:47] Caprice Fox: Oh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's, it feels like a really long time ago that I took part in that campaign.

When I look back at the pictures, my daughter was so little and she has now just turned seven years old. But when I showed it in the background of the talk for the breastfeeding study day, I felt really proud and I remember feeling really joyful that day. We had been feeding for about, uh, a year at that point and had a.

Really positive journey, and it felt so great to be out and about knowing that this picture was going to be seen by lots of different people. And what I really loved is that the organization had reached out to a really diverse group of women and birthers for these pictures. So I knew that I wasn't going to be used as a token image.

You know, the, there's a black breastfeeding person. There were so many people from a, yeah. All over, all over the country. With really varied backgrounds that we could taking part in the campaign. So it's something I was really proud of. 

[00:02:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, we, we tried really, really hard to make sure we were representative as, as we'll talk about later in this conversation.

Too many breastfeeding campaigns are token, and people think that an image is the solution to a problem of, of people, um, being discriminated against. And we've got a long way to go in the breastfeeding support world. But that feed on campaign, which was six years ago now, a long time ago now, is was, was definitely a a something that the A BM is really proud of as well.

Tell me a little bit about your own breastfeeding experiences before I ask you about your sort of professional roles. What's your breastfeeding story? 

[00:03:31] Caprice Fox: I felt like I knew I always wanted to breastfeed. So during pregnancy I had quite a tough pregnancy and um, I felt like I had a lot of the agency and decision making taken outta my hands.

And really felt like I had a kind of lack of control. So from month four, I was in a wheelchair, uh, restricted to being at home for the remainder of the pregnancy and confined to the chair. And so something that I really wanted to take ownership and control of was post birth, and that was our feeding journey.

[00:04:03] Emma Pickett: And I just ask you Caprice about the being in the chair. Is that something that, was that the first time you'd been in a wheelchair? Were you a wheelchair user before? 

[00:04:10] Caprice Fox: I wasn't a wheelchair user before, but what was really interesting is that my dad is a quadriplegic, so he is a wheelchair user, and I felt that I'd always been very aware of his needs.

It wasn't until I was in a wheelchair that I was hyper aware of, wow, Bristol is really not that accessible. Um, you know, my mom was like, I'll take you out for the day, get you outta the house. I was being pushed down Park Street and she wanted to go in the shop and was like, well, I'll just leave you out here.

And, uh, 

[00:04:40] Emma Pickett: that's quite a hill, if I remember.

[00:04:41] Caprice Fox: Yeah. 

I sat there for about 12 minutes while she, uh, she looked around the shop. So, yeah, it was, um, it was a real journey. Um, but I definitely think it helped shape me. Moving forward and contributed to my advocacy around inclusion and meaningful inclusion and, excuse the pun, like accessible inclusion for everyone.

Um, and ensuring that, yeah, those marginalized groups and voices are included in the conversations that contribute to accessibility and what that looks like. 

[00:05:16] Emma Pickett: So you were in pain for the last few months of your pregnancy?

[00:05:18] Caprice Fox: Yes. That that, yeah.

[00:05:19] Emma Pickett: What was pelvic girdle pain? Was it? 

[00:05:21] Caprice Fox: Yes, and um, it was a lot more intense than I thought it would be.

When I first started experiencing that pain, I was given leaflets and I researched and read up on it, and unfortunately it got progressively worse, so it moved to me walking with crutches and then being given the chair. And with resources. At the time, there wasn't great chairs available, so yeah, that was also really uncomfortable because it was just, you know, what was available at the time, but where it left me having to leave work early and be signed off, I felt like I was able to do a lot of research into my birth and post-birth experiences and what my life would look like after that.

And that. Uh, led to me doing lots of research around feeding, um, and feeling that I could advocate for myself in that sense. 

[00:06:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. And your, what was your kind of background to breastfeeding? Is that something that you had had a family experience of? Was it something that you always knew you wanted to do?

Where were you kind of mentally around breastfeeding before you had your own baby? 

[00:06:30] Caprice Fox: So I knew I wanted to breastfeed. I'm realizing now, I don't think I'd ever seen anyone breastfeed. I'd seen a couple of pictures of my mom breastfeeding me and my brother when we were little, and we'd had a couple of conversations, but not necessarily any advice.

It was more that, oh, you should breastfeed because I breastfed the two of you. Um, there wasn't much support there other, not much practical support around it. Just you should do it. And that's not to say that I felt pressured to do so. I definitely wanted to do it. I think perhaps that was my mom's way of trying to support me, like, yeah, of course you should do it.

Why wouldn't you? So I knew that there were lots of tips and tricks and tools that could potentially be up my sleeve. But I'm very, I say lucky, but perhaps it is that research that went into it with an element of luck that we had a really easy breastfeeding journey. She was able to latch very well from the get go.

She was born at 37 weeks and was quite small. I think she was five two. Um, when the health, when we were able to get home and the health visitors then came. And waiter, she gained her weight that she'd lost in the first, you know, three, four days very quickly and continued to put on weights very well. And you know, nappies looked fine and all of that.

I don't feel like I had much pain around it. I think the only learning curve was the amount she would feed. When we first asked her journey, I had the best intentions. I was like, I'm gonna download an app. And I'm going to record every single feed and I'll automate each breast. And after the first perhaps three months, 12 weeks, I was like, right, she's feeding a lot.

I'm on my phone a lot. I think I can just listen to my body and be slightly more intuitive with it. And, um, the more I was able to listen to my body and watch her and get to know her cues, we learn from each other. And I'd say around. Four months. It was quite interesting 'cause she's beginning to form more of a personality and navigate the world herself.

Uh, she began to obviously realize that she had two moms, so would often try and latch onto Holly. Um, and Sue realized that there's no milk there. Um, but it was very interesting that I think she was able to get comfort from just being able to lie on a comfy bosom. Um, as opposed to

[00:09:02] Emma Pickett: everybody needs a bosom for a pillow, I think is the, is the phrase 

everyone.

And when both parents have bosoms, that's a massive advantage. Uh, 

[00:09:09] Caprice Fox: I think it's, yeah, it definitely is. We did actually end up having some conversations around induced lactation, but it just wasn't the journey for us. Um, we, we didn't, we didn't pursue that anymore, but, um, as she's got older, we've definitely had more conversations when she was able to formulate, you know, her babble that made sense, and which 10 sentences where she would ask why she couldn't get milk from money as well.

And so we were able, you know, it was nice. We were able to have quite scientific conversations as to why she couldn't have milk from those breasts, but she could from mama's breasts. And those conversations carried on because we continued feeding, we did extended breastfeeding. I often just say, we just breastfed as opposed to extended breastfeeding or you know, continued breastfeeding.

No, we just breastfed love until she's ready to stop. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. I think it almost puts pressure on yourself and it's perceived in a different way. When you add on the language of continued or extended. Uh, uh, breastfeeding. So we, uh, were still feeding until she was three years and nine months. So it was around April time and she came into our bed as she did every morning and latched on, but was just being a little bit silly with it.

Kept pulling off, just flicked it a few times, pulled it, um, and then she turns me and said, I think I want my milk from a cup Mama. And, uh, I was really shocked and a a little bit heartbroken, but actually I thought how incredible that she was able to end our breastfeeding journey on her own terms and also be at the age where she could verbalize that.

Um, yeah. So there was no confusing, no confusion. This is what I want. 

[00:10:56] Emma Pickett: Oh, wow. That's fantastic. Yeah. I loved, I love hearing stories about endings. I'm really into the endings, and that's such a beautiful example of. An older child being able to articulate and, and I love that how you said that it was a, that little bit of a mixed feeling, what great pride, but also the end of a stage and the end of a journey and, and prior to that she'd been feeding just in the mornings.

So what was the kind of the, I mean I know it's a few years ago now, so it might be difficult to remember, but what had the wind down look like? Do you remember? 

[00:11:25] Caprice Fox: That girl loved her milker, so she would definitely have it, um, in the morning. And then one thing I've always said, so what I say now to, um, new parents that yes, it is a food source, it's also a water source, a a drink source.

It's a, it's a warmth source, a source of comfort, a source of connection. So it depended on the day of the week, you know, and what was happening. Perhaps I've been working more, so I'd pick her up from, uh, preschool and she'd want to cuddle on the so, and have milk then. Perhaps it was cold and we were at the park, or she'd grazed her knee coming off the slide and would want milk.

Then I wanted it to be very accessible. I didn't want it to be hidden. I didn't want it to be something that we had to do in private. So I would breastfeed anywhere and everywhere. So I think majority of the time it was in the morning, but it was also, we were very flexible. If she needed it at another time, then we would or wanted it at another time.

Then it was then. 

[00:12:18] Emma Pickett: So that morning when she asked for a cup of milk, was that it? No more feeds. 

[00:12:23] Caprice Fox: Yes. Wow. It was, it was in Incre and I think that was the beauty of her being that much older was that there wasn't that, you know, really long drawn out having to wean off. It felt like my breasts had to wean off.

Uh, but it didn't take long, uh, because obviously it wasn't like, you know, we were three months in and she was, there was an abundance of milk. There was the right amount of milk that she needed at that time. But it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't physically painful and she was able to stop. I did have a photo shoot with the whole family booked for the following week, and I'd really wanted a beautiful breastfeeding photo, which I have on my wall where I put a Haribo Cola bottle on my nipple and told the photographer, I was like, I'm gonna tell her there's a sweet, and she'll, she'll go for it.

So I pinned her arms down and she, she put her face onto my boob and I managed to get. The most beautiful picture ever. But yeah, she was.

[00:13:21] Emma Pickett: That's fantastic. Fantastic. It's a great photographic tradition of slightly cheating and photographs. I know. What's the problem with that? Fantastic. 

[00:13:29] Caprice Fox: It's been interesting more as she has got older and has had to spend more time away from us.

So when she started school, so we deferred her schooling, so she didn't start school until she was five, so hadn't fed for well over a year. Being away from us and the home for an extended period of time trip throughout the week. Definitely I felt made her aggressive. There was lots of her seeking comfort by putting her hand physically in my top.

And then if we were hugging, I'd see like a little cheeky glint in her eye and then she'd try and latch on, or she'd ask questions like, you know, is there still milk in there? How come I can't have it anymore? And I'd say, it's not that you can't have it, but we, you know, you've decided not to. So there is no longer milk there, but it's very much, I noticed that when we haven't had, I know perhaps it's been a really hectic week, we'll end up having some conversations around breastfeeding and she'll want to be held and comforted as though she's a lot smaller than she is.

So that's been, yeah, 

[00:14:37] Emma Pickett: so she's just, yeah, she's just tapping into that zone and, and I love how she's just, it. Exploring that kind of whole sort of safe area. That's her home, isn't it? And when she's feeling a bit more vulnerable, that's the home she comes back to. And it sounds like you're just brilliant at responding to that openly and, and letting her explore that.

Did you, you mentioned that you didn't have any physical symptoms. Did you have any emotional symptoms? Some people talk about having kind of weaning blues or mood changes. How did that go for you 

from memory?

[00:15:04] Caprice Fox: I don't think I did. I, um. I was just so elated that we've got so far. I think there was a slight disappointment 'cause the more, the longer our journey went on, the more and more comments I'd get.

Like, you're still feeding. Gosh. Like when are you gonna stop? It propelled me more to continue and in my head I was like, I wanna get to four now because of these comments I will get to, I'll get to five if I can. It was the only feeling I had was that little bit of like, oh, I'm slightly gutted, but we didn't make it to four just so I could say, yeah, I'm still feeding my 4-year-old.

What do you think of that? Not that I care what you think, but 

three is nine months is pretty damn good.

[00:15:42] Emma Pickett: Yes, that's a pretty good innings. And you mentioned that, that Holly decided not to do any induced lactation. Is, is, um, she hadn't had a baby before. There was no previous baby in the family, so, and how did she find being a, a mummy who didn't breastfeed?

Was that something that was difficult or how did other people perceive her? It wasn't necessarily a problem, I'm just. Curious about whether she went through anything emotionally around that? 

[00:16:07] Caprice Fox: Yeah, I don't think it was necessarily the breastfeeding. It took us a while to realize that in the very early days, so I'm talking those four, first four months, that fourth trimester where milk seemed to be the only comfort, um, and not just any type of milk.

It, it was me being able to be the source and actually that can. I think feel tough on anyone if they have a partner that they will not be able to perhaps respond to the baby's needs in the same way that someone who is uh, feeding, um, is able to do, you know, they are able to do everything, but we could probably do things a little bit quicker.

You know, they are able to offer comfort. They're able to stop them crying. They are able to calm down. But with milk in our breasts, we are able to do that at a seemingly much faster rate. So it wasn't necessarily the breastfeeding, but I think it was a, a culmination of things that resulted in my wife definitely struggling with her mental health for the first six months.

And I think it was a mixture of learning how to be a parent, learning how to. Be a, a married couple and actually our priorities are completely changed, sleep deprivation and definitely the way that we were communicated with, with um, statutory services. I think often, and I talk about this a lot in our work, impact over intent.

Your intent might be to just be really quick and get things done. But by just referring to someone as mom and not taking the time to say their name, it can feel quite dismissive. That might not have been your intent, but it's that had that impact on us. Now that's slightly more nuanced. When you are in a same sex couple and there are two moms and only one person is being referred to as the mom, it can feel draining.

And yes, we can correct, yes, we can inform, but actually it's not our job to educate when we are there to seek help, uh, from professionals. So I think, yeah, a culmination of all those things did have an impact on her, uh, mental health in the first kind of six months of parenting. And it wasn't until, uh, a lot later on in, into our parenting journey.

We felt maybe comfortable to put a name, uh, and to call it what it was. We think it was postnatal depression. And I think there's still, uh, a lot of conversations to be had around postnatal depression affecting the non birthing partners. 

[00:18:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for, for sharing that. I think, I mean, you, you've done quite a lot of writing about your experiences and people can find various bits that online that you've written.

One, one of the things that I found that struck me was when you were talking about. Your feeding journey and how you had to look high and low to connect with someone who looked like you. And that idea of it being draining, having to deal with that extra layer of, of finding it difficult to find people that connected with you.

You talk particularly about your daughter having blue spots on her back and people not understanding about that. And, um, I mean, I, I don't necessarily want to drag out the negative experience, but I guess it's important that people understand that negativity to realize the barriers that people face. Are you comfortable talking about some of those early experiences around barriers and particularly the blue spots for anyone who doesn't understand what we're talking about?

[00:19:29] Caprice Fox: Yeah, so blue spots are birthmarks that are really common, but they are usually on the lower back, uh, baby's bum cheeks, um, upper thighs, and they can appear as though they're a bruise. These are really quite common and a lot more frequent on dark black and brown skin tones. They're completely harmless.

Like I said, they're a birthmark and they can fade over time. So I was born with one. I still have a tiny one that's there, but the majority will fade by the ages of five or six. Again, really harmless, but if you aren't aware of those, and it appears as a bruise. And you present to, I dunno, perhaps an NHS setting your GP for some support and they assume that there is a bruise on your newborn child, then you can obviously see the pathway that that might follow.

Honey was born with those blue spots on her back and I realize now that actually yeah, they've begun to fade. Uh, she's just turned seven and yeah, they are beginning to fade. I think something that always really frustrated me in regards to breastfeeding was that something wasn't right on my breast, and I could tell it looked redder to me, but it didn't appear overly red to perhaps anyone else that wasn't with, with darker skin tones.

And I went to the GP and they were like, well, keep an eye on it, but it doesn't look like there's anything there. And what I believe it to be was the beginning of mastitis and they just weren't comfortable or competent enough to be able to recognize rashes, skin conditions on darker skin tones. I knew how, how I felt, and again, thankfully I had the knowledge and know how to be able to research that more and look at different ways and solutions and how to take care of myself during that period.

But yeah, it's, it was really frustrating. Those are two that that come to mind. 

[00:21:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that, I mean that experience of being ignored during mastitis, I mean, for anyone who doesn't know if mastitis is untreated, that can be life threatening. You know, we can be talking about sepsis, we can be talking about 

hospitalization.

You know, it's not just about, oh, my breast is a bit tender. We're talking about something that can really impact on physical health and breastfeeding outcomes and, and mental health. I know you and I have 

talked about the Spectrum lactation project, which I'm involved with, and our image library has now launched our in those image library.

Um, examples. We do have examples of mastitis on darker skin tones, and we're hoping to collect even more. Obviously, somebody with a very dark skin tone will have absolutely no skin change, color, color change at all, but may have very severe mastitis. It's so important that that practitioners get this information and, and what you just described is a prime example of somebody who looks on a website, sees a reference to redness, ignores you, and I'm so sorry that you had that experience.

You became a breastfeeding peer supporter, didn't you? You went on to do training. How did that go for you? 

[00:22:28] Caprice Fox: It was a really nice time actually in my life. I think it was, it was great that I was able to bring honey along with me. And she was able to be on that journey with me. It felt quite empowering that I was able to upskill myself and also have my daughter alongside me with with me, and be able to see that.

It was something that I really wanted to do because like you said, there just wasn't really that representation. I've been looking online. I am a chronic scroller, uh, on Instagram, so I've been looking online to see different people's feeding journeys and really struggled to see representation. So I thought, well, perhaps this might be the space for it.

But what was really shocking in the, the, the months and months of training that I had, all of the resources and images that I saw, every single one of them was wiped. So it was incredible that I was signed off, had this certification and all of the people in the room were like, we are able to do X, Y, Z.

But I was like, actually, again, it comes down to that confidence and competence. Like how are you going to be able to do this on a dark skin person? Are you going to be able to offer them the same level of care and expertise that you are able to do on a white skin person? So it was great getting that knowledge, but also.

Very eye-opening, uh, in regards to the changes that needed to happen. 

[00:23:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's scary. I mean, that wasn't 20 years ago, we're talking. 

[00:23:56] Caprice Fox: No, 

[00:23:56] Emma Pickett: you know, about, you know, six years ago, that is pretty frightening that not one image was of somebody who was black or brown. That's, that's scary. 

[00:24:04] Caprice Fox: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:05] Emma Pickett: And obviously peer supporters aren't expecting to diagnose mastitis, but you certainly have to know what different nipples look like.

You have to know what you know areolas can look like. You have to know what shades of skin can look like. And that's. Pretty scary. I really hope that's changed, and I hope the Spectrum Library will help change that as well.

I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milkies.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom was getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching, and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding.

For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code mM PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma. 10.

Let's talk about something that we could spend a whole hour talking about. Let's talk, talk about the Embrace reports. So, you know better than anybody, for anyone who doesn't know the Embrace Reports report on outcomes for safety around childbirth. So the prenatal period and, and the perinatal period. And the postnatal period.

And we're looking at outcomes for black and brown families. Really not having improved over many, many reports. So black and brown women are, and birthing people are at much greater risk from death and harm during that period, and babies are at greater risk as well, and the progress that's been made. And people sometimes get excited about the progress, but it's really not been statistically significant.

No strong evidence of improvement. How do you feel when you see that lack of change, and why do you think there is so little being done? Even though we keep talking about it and we keep having conference conferences where people are presenting about it and everyone nods and goes, oh yes, yes, we know it's a problem.

[00:26:44] Caprice Fox: Why is it not changing ?

When the first embrace report or the, well, the, the one that everyone seems to remember in 2020 came out, black women, um, and birthers were five times more likely to die during childbirth, or in the six weeks following. That was 2020. On the 11th of September. This year, the latest embrace report has been released, and that number has changed to 2.3 times more likely.

And there has been a reduction. There has been a reduction, but also I think it's really important to not take statistics at face value and to look into them a bit more. Because what's actually happened is that the number, if we are looking at the number as opposed to the like number times, we're looking at the actual numbers of women who have died, the number of white women has.

Increased, which makes the number of deaths for black women look smaller. So there has been a decrease, but also because the number has increased for other racial groups, the number and statistic for black birthers has also decreased, if that makes sense. 

[00:27:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So proportionally, fewer? 

[00:27:59] Caprice Fox: Yes. 

[00:28:00] Emma Pickett: Just as many dying.

Okay. 

[00:28:01] Caprice Fox: Yes, yes. 

[00:28:02] Emma Pickett: That's not good news on any level. No, I wouldn't have you, but 

[00:28:05] Caprice Fox: no. But it's frustrating 'cause we see these reports come out year on year. Uh, all slightly different, but all very similar and all stating the same things and there is things being done. But I think what's happened is that there isn't a uniformed approach to tackling these statistics, to tackling systemic racism.

It's being done in really small pockets. So what we're seeing is really good practice in small pockets across the uk, across the world. But it's not, uh, it's not across the board, so we are not seeing that long lasting, meaningful, impactful change happen globally. So within the Southwest, for example, we've had a really fantastic project called Reframe.

And they have been similar to the work you've been doing, creating a library of images, of skin conditions on black and brown people with, mainly within Southwest, but there's a whole host of, uh, skin conditions that they cover. So, brilliant. Some great practice there. Some of the work that we are involved in at Black Mothers Matter is a fantastic project called Black Maternity Matters, which is a six month long immersive anti-racist training program, which is paired with quality improvement projects.

So not only are people going on a really rich, long lasting, impactful, anti-racist journey for half of a year. They are also having to think more widely about their practice and what they can implement that will create long lasting change. Because we often think as individuals that, well, what can I do?

Actually these individuals have all created small ripples, and those small ripples come together to create a, a wider impact. Um, and I think it's really important to. Take away from your small ideas if they have an impact on five people or if they have an impact on 500 people, it's making a change. So some of those projects have included having details and documents translated into different languages.

Uh, for other QI projects is look like having, um, name badges where every single person that service users and staff have to have names written phonetically. It has looked like changing the uniform. So people who perhaps wear hijabs or have locks or have a huge Afro have access to uniform that is suitable, um, for them and the roles that they're having.

There's book clubs in the NHS where people are, uh, on an anti-racist, anti-racist reading journey. There's so many little things happening that are having huge impacts, and I think the next stage of the projects is going to be really fantastic 'cause we are now looking at evaluating the impact that these QI projects have had on the service users.

So we are hoping to get that data within the next 12 months. So, yeah, stuff is happening. 

[00:31:11] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. As you say, not necessarily nationally, though. It is in those, those, those pockets. And one of the things that, that I notice, and I'm, I'm sure you do too, is that lots of the people that get involved in projects like that aren't necessarily the problem in inverter commas because it may be managers or people that don't think they are racist or don't understand what systemic, systemic racism looks like and mm-hmm.

And too many people don't really understand what anti-racism is, and they think that it's not me. I'm fine. You know, I like black authors. I, you know, I read the, the right books and they don't understand what microaggression looks like. They don't understand the sort of comments that might put women at risk.

I, I listened to midwife Keeley from Birmingham on a few days ago. She was speaking at a conference where I was speaking, and one of the things that she was talking about, and I know I don't need to tell you this, but for, for listeners, is the assumption that black women. Are stronger inverted commas and need less pain relief and are more, are more able to manage in difficult situations and maybe are told to labor on their own for a bit longer.

And, you know, one breastfeeding supporter said, a midwife said to her, no, they'll, that they'll be fine without breastfeeding support, I'm sure. Their community's great at breastfeeding. They don't need help. Things that are just tiny little assumptions, tiny little microaggressions that actually aren't tiny because they really impact people on a bigger level.

And the idea that when women do start advocating for themselves, they're perceived as angry or aggressive. And, and we get the, the white woman tears scenario where, you know, white women focus on their own reactions and vulnerabilities and defensiveness rather than, you know, ex examining the person in the center of their care.

What's it like in Bristol? Do we, do you have statistics for Bristol particularly, or the embrace report's? Obviously national. Do you have a sense of what's happening in local hospitals to you? 

[00:33:03] Caprice Fox: There's actually, I think the two, because we've got two na, uh, sorry, two hospital trusts in Bristol, and they're actually going to be releasing some data.

I think at the end of this year, and it sounds like it's going to be positive and what's really interesting is that those two trusts have both taken part with lots of members of staff on the Black Maternity Matters project. So it'd be interesting to see the impact that that has had on the service users within those two hospital trusts.

But I think it's interesting. Yeah, what you were saying, what midwife Keeley's saying, but also for people who do think that they are not racist. You know, we cannot be racist, that's fine. But also it's really important that we look at the society that we are working within, the structures that we are working within and how they are inherently racist.

So we might not be, uh, trying to perpetuate harm ourselves, but we are usually working within systems that will, um, cause harm. Um, so by that, you know, I'm thinking about, um, things like the police. So just last weekend there was the far right anti-immigration protest in London and a month prior was the Notting Hill Carnival and Notting Hill Carnival.

They used, um, camera software to, um, look at everyone's faces. That wasn't done in London at the weekend for the protests. Okay. Why it's very similar numbers, very, uh, you know, the amount of people that are there, uh, are quite similar, but to me it's quite obvious. Yes. Um, as to why these things are happening, you know, when we think about education and the books and resources that we are shown from the get go, from when we are small children, they are through a particular lens.

And we see that a lot within the NHS, particularly when we're working with people who have been working within that system for 20 plus years. This is the first time they're having conversations about race and racism. This is the first time that they are having conversations around the fact that, yeah, I've not been looking at images that have been very diverse.

Um, and that's been my teaching and education base. So, yeah, it's really important that we are nuanced with our conversations about not being racist and recognizing that actually it's so much bigger than us. It's so much bigger than just microaggressions. Yeah. 

[00:35:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I, I did, um, Nova Reads course online course in the Pandemic, and one of the things that I took from that is.

I'm not sure any white person can say they're not 

racist if they live in the uk. I'm wary of anybody that says they're not racist if they come from a background like mine. I think it's a constant ongoing conversation and a constant ongoing journey, and any project can't be a one off. You can't have one day, you can't tick a box and say, I've done cultural safety training.

No such thing. It's just a constant, constant journey and your projects are, you know, really detailed and lots of tendrils that look at lots different aspects of changing society. Can I ask you about one of your projects? Tell me about beyond the Mix. What's Beyond the mix? 

[00:36:14] Caprice Fox: Beyond The Mix is just a gorgeous community.

So beyond the mix was started, um, in the wake of 2020. Um, and it started as a community space for mixed heritage women. I then came on board and now look after beyond the mixed families. So beyond the mixed families is for mixed heritage families. Um, perhaps you are racialized differently to your child.

Perhaps you have a mixed child. Perhaps you were a mixed person. We run workshops, events, community meetups, and aim to provide safe spaces for people to build a network of families that are like theirs, to celebrate their heritage, to learn and grow together, and ensure that the experiences for our children are better than the experiences that we had as adults.

It's beautiful. I feel really lucky the educator and me just, I just love being around children and at our meetups I've seen first steps children learn how to ride bikes, to try new things for the first time, to make new friends, make new connections, to have their first conversations about race and belonging and recognizing that they're in an environment where actually, oh yeah, there's lots of children here that look like me.

And I think one of my favorite things that's come out of it is that when I was younger, if anyone was to say like, where's Caprice? Oh, she's over there. She's the black girl. I was the only one. And my daughter is like, oh, I made friends today with, I saw my friend. I'm like, which one? Oh, you know, the one with like.

Brown skin and cur. I'm like, well, th that could be a whole host of children. Um, and yeah, it's so lovely that she's in a, an environment that is diverse with children from all walks of life because yeah, not all of us as adults, we're lucky enough to have that as children. 

[00:38:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. That is definitely a fantastic gift.

So I keep you got, you've got so many hats on, I dunno which hat to ask about next. But let me ask about your education background. So you're primary school teacher like me, you're on the education lead for Black Mothers Matter. I'm really keen talking about primary school education. I love talking about breastfeeding education in schools and, and getting stuff on the curriculum.

What do you think is missing from the curriculum in England particularly? What would you like to see changed? 

[00:38:35] Caprice Fox: Just having conversations. I've always been very. Black and white and scientific in regards to my answers to children. I think often we worry about saying the wrong thing. Is it gonna be sexualized?

Is it gonna be inappropriate? Can I get in trouble with this? If we are telling factual information. We can't, nothing is wrong. You know, so often I would talk to my children about what I was doing on the weekend, or I'm a bit tired today, and they're like, why? Well, actually I'm on my period, so that means this is happening.

And so my mood, my hormones will feel like this. And they're, oh, okay. And they're able to connect that to their experiences within their homes. Like, oh yeah, my mommy sometimes feels like that. Cool. Great, because we want all children to be aware of these bodily changes, not just the girls, which is what happened when I was in primary school.

We were all pulled into a room. And the same with breastfeeding, you know, oh, I'm a bit tired. Last night my daughter, uh, was up three times last night. So I had to feed her and they're like, oh, what, what was she eating? Or she wasn't eating. Um, I feed her milk from my breasts and that's how she gets her, her food and drink, um, from my body.

Factual. It's factual information, you know, and I think by normalizing, and actually I, I move away from the word normalizing because it's not normal or abnormal. You know, people's lived experiences aren't normal or abnormal. It's just utilizing these conversations. So it is, this is usually what happens, you know, it's, it takes away that stigma.

[00:40:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think there's still a lot of work to do for people to feel comfortable, not just around breastfeeding, not just around periods, but just, you know, we are so scared of saying the wrong thing, that we stay silent. And that's where problems kind of arise, particularly with children if we are not, you know, we want to nurture their curiosity, so we have to let them ask questions and make mistakes and, and, and, and get to know what, what, what, what's happening in the world.

[00:40:34] Caprice Fox: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right about the idea of people being nervous about saying the wrong thing. I think that's probably true in anti-racism education for adults too. People are so nervous about saying the wrong thing that they don't end up learning and, and talking to communities and having conversations and, and listening, and we've got to be brave about, you know, taking the next, next steps to have those conversations.

[00:40:55] Emma Pickett: I know you do consultancy work as well as an individual. If, if an organization approached you, maybe it's the organization that's someone listening to this that runs and they say, you know, we are this business, this charity, we know we need to do better with anti-racism. Can we employ you as a consultant?

What does that journey look like? What's the kind of ideal, um, relationship you'd have with that organization? 

[00:41:19] Caprice Fox: I think everyone could do with having. Training conversations on this and it being ongoing. But what I really like about, um, what we offer with Black mothers matter is that people are often like, well, surely that's not that.

Like I could do that myself or does that, do we need to speak about this? But we really take the time to hold the mirror up to ourselves and actually. Take a step back and just reflect on why we are the way we are, our, our thought processes, our biases, our upbringing, our values, what has shaped us and got us to the point that we are at today that makes us think the way we do.

And makes us tick the way we do about certain communities. Why do we feel triggered by certain people, by certain language? And really unpick some of that stuff before we can move forward on this journey of anti-racism and unpicking what racism looks like. It's important to realize where everyone is at.

So that's what your journey would begin with. And then we'd really unpick race and racism. Because I still think there's a lot of learning around the language that we use. There's lots of language around race, ethnicity, heritage, like actually what? What does it all mean? What do you want to know? Are you asking someone's race?

Are you asking their nationality? Are you asking their ethnicity? What language are we using and why? And what does it determine? And then a wider look around what racism can look like. So, you know, we talked about microaggressions, but actually it's looking at societal racism, systemic racism, and how that permeates all layers of society.

And then we probably need a break and a breather and get everyone to, to unclench their jaw and, and take a breath. But it's, it's really about just being honest and having some really honest conversations. So people might expect a tick list, but actually it's gonna be about having a deep dive within ourselves, uh, before we can move forward.

And then, yeah, I, I love to leave people with like, recommendations that I, I'm a Netflix girl. I like to learn through watching things. And I love, and I think again, it comes down to being that educator and that teacher is, uh, you know, we, we recognize that children all learn differently and we need to, uh, cater to that.

We still need to do that as adults. So, you know. Helping people find whatever route, uh, to, to learning more is going to be like, 

[00:43:48] Emma Pickett: I love the idea you leave Netflix recommendations. That's, that's, I'm a big TV fan. I think it's a way to learn about the world. Absolutely. If it's not your personal, absolutely not Your personal community.

I, I know that your work also includes L GBT Q plus inclusion stuff as well, and. And this is a scary time at the moment in the world. We've got scary things going on in America. Um, you know, different political movements happening in, in the West, which we feel like we're semi protected in the uk, but we're obviously really not.

Mm-hmm. Ash also spoke at the same day training day that midwife Keely was spoken at speaking at, and they explained how UK rankings for safety, um, for queer people has dropped. Massively. We were first in the Europe and now we're like in the twenties, which is is terrifying information. This is Ash Bainbridge who talked at the study day in, in Birmingham.

I mean, how do you feel about the current climate in the uk? Has your work changed because that climate is changing? 

[00:44:48] Caprice Fox: My work in busyness is guided by what's in the media. So at the moment, you know, with the embrace reports with. Discussions around racism and migrants and, you know, the, the, the narrative within the media, it's meant that I've not had as many conversations around LGBT education, but it still needs to happen.

I think those conversations needs to be happening really early in schools because the statistics around hate division. Negativity around the LGBTQ plus community is increasing from earlier ages. You know, it starts, it's really insidious. It starts so early. So I think it's important that we're having those conversations.

For me, I'm, I'm very thankful that, and I'm, I'm embarrassed that I have to say this, that, that we are married, that we have, you know, paperwork in place. That means that we are relatively safe, but I know that's not the same for everybody. I've definitely noticed a change when I travel. My passport isn't the same surname as my daughter's, and over the past few years, the comments that I get at like passport control within the uk, not in the other countries, that I'm, I'm going to have left me with like a sour taste in my mouth.

Lots of questions. Well, how, why, where's her dad? Where's, you know, it's, it's really uncomfortable. So, yeah, it doesn't feel great at the moment. 

[00:46:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. 

[00:46:16] Caprice Fox: Yeah. The conversations I have kind of ebb and flow depending on what's happening at the, uh, you know, at at current times. Sometimes my conversations are more geared towards that facet of my, my life and other times it's more geared towards conversations around race and racism.

Um, and the fact that I'm racialized as a black woman at the moment, they seem to be more nuanced towards that. Whereas, um, I'd say probably for the first five years of being a parent, they were more geared towards being in a same sex family. 

[00:46:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's been happening in the breastfeeding support community is we've got really confused about how to talk about trans and non-binary parents.

[00:46:58] Caprice Fox: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:58] Emma Pickett: We've got very confused about language and there's been lots of fear mongering. Hysteria around trans women, and that's meant that trans dads and non-binary parents have been ignored and forgotten about. 

[00:47:11] Caprice Fox: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:11] Emma Pickett: How do you get on in Black Mothers matter with inclusive language? Is that conversation being comfortable?

[00:47:18] Caprice Fox: If I'm completely honest, there is still a hell of a lot of work to do within the black community around the LGBTQ plus community. I think it helps that I am a visibly queer person working within this organization, and I have made it very clear from the get go, um, perhaps we haven't always got it right with everyone within the team, but we've made it very clear that this group is for anyone racialized as black or mixed black who is pregnant.

Has been pregnant, has a, a, a small child. We use the, the language on our website and with all of our training and just all of our conversations of women and birthers because yeah, we need, but we, we do need to do better. And I do think that that will still take time because not within this immediate community, but within the wider black community, there's still a lot of work to do there.

[00:48:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Um, I think that's true of most communities in the uk. Okay. You've been very generous with your time today, Caprice. Thank you so much. I just want to ask you if anyone's listening, and they don't, they're not part of an organization, they're not gonna be getting a lovely consultant coming to talk to them.

They're not gonna be getting training. Maybe they're, um, lactation consultant in private practice. Maybe they're a peer supporter who doesn't necessarily get a lot of training offered to them. They say, I'd love to learn more about cultural humility. I'd love to know more about anti-racism. Do you have any favorite resources if someone does ask you that question?

[00:48:53] Caprice Fox: Yeah, I mean, there are so many books that people can read. I would say, and I'd love to get a, a slogan made on a t-shirt that Google is free. We don't always have to ask everyone to hand you information on a plate. We can Google, we can use our local libraries because they are a brilliant resource and, and, and wealth of information.

And they are fantastic at recommending books, um, and resources. But, um. Some of the books off the top of my head. There's a book called Divided, which is really fantastic. It's quite medical, but it talks about racism, medicine, the need to decolonize healthcare in general. Um, I think something that's very hard to get a book that's specific on just breastfeed, like, you know, like I said, it's a lot bigger than that.

So by understanding the system and society we're working in, that will improve your practice. There's a great book called Unheard. There's a book called Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better White Women. There's a book called Outraged, which again is fantastic, but I will say, yeah, there are so many books and so many things that you can access to learn.

Google would be my first port of call because it's free. 

[00:50:19] Emma Pickett: Yes. And even chat, GPT is, um, not always free, but you can get the free version and, and they'll help you explore, um, different aspects of it as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's not your responsibility to be educating anybody else if they're not, certainly, if they're not paying for your time.

Free labor is not something black women should be giving to anybody, let alone white cis people who can look at their own Google. 

[00:50:43] Caprice Fox: Yeah. One thing, you know what? One thing I'll say that I always tell people is actually, if you are really unsure where to start on your journey of anti-racism, a really good thing to do is to have diversity of thought.

And by that it just means if you look around and your whole network is white. Listen to other people's voices. So if you use social media, perhaps follow people that don't look like you, perhaps follow people that have a different point of view from you. Perhaps follow people that critique the news and you wouldn't usually listen to their opinions by listening to people that are outside of your space and outside of your bob ball.

And, uh, yeah, diversifying your, your, your thought processes can be really beneficial. 

[00:51:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for that. Okay, so if people want to find you, you've got an account on Instagram that's kind of the Fox family? Yes. Are you okay with people going there? Going there and finding you? 

[00:51:41] Caprice Fox: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:51:42] Emma Pickett: And we've got Black Mothers Matter and we've got obviously websites and lots of resources where people want to come across you or ask for support.

Is there anything we haven't talked about today? That you really think we should have talked about? 

[00:51:55] Caprice Fox: No, I think, I think we've covered it all. I think I'm ready for a cup of tea. 

Well deserved.

[00:52:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Caprice. I really, really appreciate it. 

[00:52:06] Caprice Fox: Alright.

[00:52:07] Emma Pickett: Thanks so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.