Florence's story - returning to breastfeeding after a break

If ever there was someone who ticked all the boxes for breastfeeding challenges, it might be my guest this week.  Florence East’s experience of feeding her son,  Fred, includes a C-section birth, latching issues, nipple pain, and a diagnosis of tongue tie, which led to the use of nipple shields and eventually, exclusive pumping. She discusses her experiences with triple feeding, renting a hospital-grade pump, and using domperidone to increase milk supply. Despite numerous challenges, including mastitis and vasospasms, Florence's persistence and Fred's natural instincts led to a successful return to breastfeeding after several months. Fred is now two, and Florence is pregnant again and looking forward to tandem breastfeeding when Fred’s sibling is born next year.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm going to be talking to Florence, Florence East from Hitchen in Hartfordshire, who is the mom of the lovely Fred, who is two years old.

As you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about her breastfeeding journey, which includes a break from breastfeeding for a few months before resuming breastfeeding, and he is still going strong today. But not only that, there's a lot else that went on as well, which is why she wanted the break in the first place.

And there's a lot of different issues. So we're gonna try and have this conversation, Florence, without sounding like we're ticking off a list of all the things that can go wrong with someone's breastfeeding journey, you are amazing for all the things that you've overcome. I'm so impressed when you reached out and told me all the challenges you had.

And thank you so much for joining me today to share your story. Right before we get started, um, I hear there's some exciting news. Tell tell me your exciting news. 

[00:01:39] Florence: Um, yes, there's some very exciting news. I'm eight weeks pregnant at the moment with my second baby. 

[00:01:45] Emma Pickett: Yay. So you're still breastfeeding Fred, who's the chap that you had the gap from breastfeeding from.

Yeah. And you're now eight weeks pregnant. So for anybody who is thinking about being in this situation or is in this situation, how is it going first trimester, early pregnancy with a breastfeeding 2-year-old? 

[00:02:03] Florence: Well, um, it's been a different first trimester than, um, with my pregnancy with Fred. I'm having a lot of nausea, um, a lot more severe than I did the first time round.

And yeah, it's exhausting when you have a toddler as well, so at least I'm not being sick. It could be worse, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's been tiring and I've definitely noticed a drop in my milk supply probably from about four weeks. Um, Fred would tell me. Uh, the milk's gone, or, um, my boobs empty. So, and he's definitely, he's probably dropped a feed over the last few weeks as well, but there, there's still milk there, but it's definitely, definitely on the decline at the moment.

[00:02:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think some people don't realize how early on that supply reduction can be, um, for some people is actually the sign they're pregnant. Um, and because they didn't necessarily realize that they were, and, and yeah, supply can go really quite early on. So you mentioned that he dropped a feed.

What's the sort of typical 24 hours for his feeding at the moment? 

[00:03:08] Florence: So at the moment he has quite a long morning feed when he wakes up. So he sleeps in his own cot, but when he wakes, um, we get him out of bed, bring him into our bed, and then he has his morning breastfeed there, which can sometimes be about an hour, um, of him just going from, from boob to boob and then maybe having a little play or mess around on the bed and then coming back.

Um, but it gives us all a bit more time in bed. So works quite nicely for us. And then the days I'm at home with him, uh, which is kind of three to four days a week, I'll breastfeed him before his nap and then before bed. But, um, until recently he would also have a kind of mid-afternoon feed or the days he's at childcare, he would, uh, have a breastfeed when he got home from there as well, which is the one that's dropped.

[00:04:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. And are you having any nipple sensitivity, any sort of pain? 

[00:04:05] Florence: Yeah, so no aversion, but yeah, very sensitive nipples. Um, it's, it's kind of the initial latch is the painful bit and then generally it kind of dies down a bit. But, um, yeah, very sensitive and I find it a bit worse at night. So at night I let him have both breasts, but I'll generally have to kind of at some point say to him, right, we're gonna stop now.

And, um, from listening to your podcast, I've took the idea of kind of doing a countdown with him 'cause he loves numbers, so he's quite happy after the countdown, then to finish and going to his cot and go off to sleep. 

[00:04:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then he's, I'm guessing if he's in his cot in the morning, he's, he's not woken up at night.

[00:04:48] Florence: Uh, so last night he slept through, but I would say it's a mixed bag. He's usually only up once in the night, but, um. I mean, until recently, I could probably count on one hand the times he slept through the night this year. Um, but he seems to have turned a bit of a corner in the last few weeks as well. So yeah, I'd say a couple of times a week we might get him sleeping through, but he'll usually wake up once and I'll just go into his room, um, sit in a chair and, and breastfeed him.

And then probably not for very long. And again, I tend to kind of say to him, mommy's tired, mommy wants to go back to bed. Um, and he is quite happy with that to go back into bed and go back off to sleep. 

[00:05:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I love the honesty by the way. Um, so you are popping him back in his court awake pretty much.

You're not waiting for him to be zonked out and putting him back in asleep? 

[00:05:38] Florence: No, he, he knows 

[00:05:38] Emma Pickett: he's going back in. 

[00:05:39] Florence: Yeah, he knows he's going back in. It's been quite a while since he would ever really fall asleep on the breast. Um, he, he did used to, um, probably maybe between like 16. Um, 20 months say, but I'd say definitely for the last few months.

Yeah. It's just he could just be on there forever and never really fall asleep these days. 

[00:06:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then at bedtime also, it's kind of, okay mate, time for sleep. You're popping in his car. And just outta curiosity, do you then do anything else? Are you singing, are you a pater or were you just kind of night night and, and leaving him?

[00:06:17] Florence: No, so we do, um, we kind of do bath, then we do a couple of stories, then we do his feed and then, yeah, it's just into his cot and he's got a few teddies that he cuddles. So he'll tell me what, which teddies he wants, and I kind of give them to him and then, and then, yeah, he just goes to sleep. 

[00:06:35] Emma Pickett: Great. There are some people listening this to this going, what the hell?

How does that work? Hang on. I'm, I'm co-sleeping and feeding every 90 minutes all through the night and my son's just turned two. Uh, how is this possibly fair? Um, but it's just actually, it's actually just great to hear also that you can have a 2-year-old who's still breastfeeding. Who knows they're in their cart, who doesn't mind going in their cart, who is totally understanding when mommy says, I'm tired, now I need to go back to bed.

Who doesn't mind when mommy leaves and goes into a different room? There are lots of different ways to being a breastfeeding parent, and, and it's great to hear your experience. 

[00:07:07] Florence: Something I, I wonder with him is, so wh which will come on to, he, he was bottle fed for quite a long time and during those months of bottle feeding, he pretty much reliably slept through the night.

And yeah, he was in his own court at that point and so then we transitioned back to breastfeeding and his sleep definitely got worse when the, the more we breastfed. Um, but I guess I think he's kind of, he's never, he probably kind of is on toes a line where he's not a fully, where he's never been a fully breastfed baby.

Um, and so we kind of got the benefit of. Good sleep for a while from bottle feeding maybe, but every baby's different as well, so, 

[00:07:51] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. But, and you were bottle feeding, expressed milk, just to say you were bottle feeding your own milk. So this isn't a conversation about formula versus breastfeeding.

Okay. So just, just thinking about your goals, what are your plans when it comes to tandem feeding and Fred's feeding? What are you thinking? 

[00:08:06] Florence: Originally, I wanted to breastfeed for two years. I remember getting given a leaflet, um, which talked about kind of milestones of breastfeeding and what it did for the mom or the baby.

And then I think as, as our journey kind of went on, um, I had in my head that I'd like to at least get to three. And I guess I've kind of always been, I have these little goals in my head, but I've kind of felt like I, I want to kind of be led by Fred, really, as long as it's kind of working for both of us.

So yeah, I plan to tandem feed. I, I'm really hoping my milk doesn't completely dry up during pregnancy. I kind of, I'm hoping, I guess, that if it does, he'll dry nurse until colostrum. Yeah, very 

[00:08:48] Emma Pickett: well. Maybe the case. Yeah. Lots of children will be happy to carry on doing that. And then colostrum's not so far away, um, another couple of months or so, and then colostrum will arrive and, yeah.

Okay. Brilliant. I'm so, so pleased to hear what you're saying based on the really tough experience you had at the beginning that you're in in such a positive place. Now when it comes to breastfeeding, obviously you're a bit sore and things aren't great necessarily all the time with pregnancy, but you're in such a positive place with breastfeeding after all your hard work and determination.

So let's go back to the beginning of Fred's journey and think a little bit about those early days and some of those early struggles. There is so much in your story. I sometimes say to people, gosh, you, you really have ticked every box and you really did tick every box. So, so some people will be listening to this going, God, not another thing.

Oh my God, are you kidding? One more thing. Um, so the message is, yes, Florence went through a lot of stuff and we're gonna hear about how they all came in combination and yet think about how this conversation started. She's breastfeeding her 2-year-old. She's going to be tandem. Feeding what women can come through is extraordinary and amazing.

So tell me about Fred's birth, first of all. 

[00:09:57] Florence: Yeah, so I, um, I had a quite a low risk pregnancy that my 20 week scan, I was told I had a, a low lying placenta, but was told, you know, in, in nine out of 10 cases it, it moves out of the way. So booked another scan for 32 weeks At that scan they said, I'll, rather than moving up and out the way, it's kind of gone across your cervix.

So at that point they said it was unlikely to move, but they'd give it a few more weeks. Um, but yeah, ultimately it didn't move. Um, and so I was asked to schedule a c-section. Um, they wanted to do it at between 37 and 38 weeks, but I really wanted him to kind of stay in there for as long as possible. So I managed to agree with them to do it at 39 weeks.

So yeah, we had a c-section at, at 39 weeks. I had kind of done research into gentle C-sections and the kind of things that I could ask for a hospital. So I asked for him kind of not to be weighed or, or cleaned and just to be passed straight to me as soon as possible, which he was. And as soon as he was put on my chest, although it's not really a breast crawl because they're kind of really high up on your chest when you have a C-section, he kind of shuffled his way over to, um, my boob and, and literally latched on whilst I was still being operated on.

[00:11:21] Emma Pickett: Oh, fantastic. 

[00:11:22] Florence: Yeah. Me and my husband still talk about it to this day that it was just the most amazing thing that we've ever seen. 

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: Breast shimmy. Should we call that a sideways shimmy rather than a breast across isn't. That really tells you what babies can do and their deep, deep, profound instinct to want to be on the breast.

That's fantastic. Yeah. 

[00:11:39] Florence: And I remember feeling really chuffed that one of the midwives, um, who was part of the, you know, the kind of operating. Team in, in theater said that she'd never seen a baby do that before in that kind of setting. So I was really glad that, um, I managed to do it and show that it was possible.

But yeah, I guess one thing I kind of laugh at now is that our breastfeeding journey just kind of went downhill from there. It was kind of that initial high, uh, but, and yeah, he lapsed on, and then, so after I was all sewed up and moved to recovery, he was very sleepy. And I was starting, I think as the, the drugs were wearing off from the operation, I was starting to feel pain from his latch.

The initial latch would hurt and then it just felt like very. I guess very hard. And I asked a few kind of infant feeding team people at the hospital to check his latch, and they all said it looked fine and I felt a bit dismissed, to be honest. Um, I felt like I kind of tried a few times to get people to have a look at his latch and give me some guidance and I, I just wasn't really given any.

So yeah, I feel like I, I tried to kind of reach out to a few people in hospital for help with the latch, but was just kind of told it was okay. Something which I didn't mention in my birth. Um, after Fred was born, I, I hemorrhaged and I lost about 1.4 liters of blood, but no one in hospital ever mentioned to me that that might affect my breastfeeding.

My husband actually overheard someone else on the ward being told that. Um, so. We did find it out that way, but Oh, of course. But yeah, no one actually told me. And yeah, I, I was very keen to get out of hospital as well, so I think although I was in pain, I kind of made peace with, let's just try and get home and I'll get some lactation support at home.

And I'd actually already met with a lactation consultant before having Fred, so I kind of had someone in mind. I'd already had her number and so yeah, went down that route instead. And so, yeah, I think I first saw a lactation consultant on day four after his birth. By that point we were using nipple shields intermittently because I was just finding it too painful to breastfeed without them.

And I was, I think my right boob had started to scab over a bit. And yeah, she, she helps with latch and I think I kind of felt. At the time, like it, you know, she'd helped me and we'd got, figured it out. I'd been doing a bit of rugby hold because I was in a lot of pain from the C-section, so I was doing rugby hold to try and avoid, um, my, uh, tummy area, but I just don't really think that was working for me.

So yeah, then she kind of helped me get a good latch with cross cradle, but I guess I kind of felt like as soon as the support went away as well as when you're in a lot of pain as well, I just think I had like, so much going on. Um, and also a baby with I guess other issues going on as well. So yeah, we, we kind of felt like we'd maybe helped correct the latch slightly.

He was then weighed on day five and he'd lost 6% of his, um, birth weight. So they were kind of happy with that because it was under 10%. Yeah. And given that he was a C-section baby. 

[00:15:02] Emma Pickett: But obviously you being in pain is not good news. Um, did you just actually, quick question about your blood loss. Did you have a transfusion?

[00:15:09] Florence: No. 

[00:15:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:15:11] Florence: So yeah, I lost 1.4 liters of blood and I think that, sorry, I was just under the cutoff for a transfusion. Okay. 

[00:15:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're still in pain. You've had the lactation consultant visiting you, which improved things a bit, but not necessarily ongoing. Are you still using shields at this point? 

[00:15:26] Florence: Yes, and I think somewhere between, so day five and day 12, Fred would just no longer take my, my boob without a shield.

So we just were then, at this point using Shields full time. But I think, again, a friend had recommended me, shields, she, she just breastfed with shields throughout her entire journey because she found it painful initially, but she seemed to be one of those lucky people that actually, I think her son had gained weight on his first weigh in, and they were just absolutely fine using them.

But. For me, I guess. I think I probably, so yeah, because of that, I'd bought some in case I needed them, I used them. But I think at this point, when I first started using them, I didn't even realize you had to kind of invert them to kind of, you know, get suction of your nipple into them. So I was probably just putting them on.

Um, and I think it was only through then, yeah, when talking to the lactation consultant, I found out how to use them. And I think I tried a few different brands and, and types, but, um, ultimately I think they just didn't, didn't really work for me for whatever reason. And actually were hindering. Milk transfer to Fred.

[00:16:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. So his weight gain, I'm guessing, didn't carry on being good news? 

[00:16:45] Florence: No. So then he was weighed again on day 12, and at this point he'd gained no weight since his, uh, day five weighing. 

[00:16:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. That must've been a really scary moment when you were told that. 

[00:16:59] Florence: Yeah, I was, I really wasn't expecting it. I knew things weren't going great, but I didn't realize, you know, I just, I really wasn't expecting that.

I was devastated and at that point, so it was, this was the health visitor said, you know, you need to go onto a feeding plan and recommended, uh, top ups, I think it was between 30 to 60 meals, um, every four to six hours. And yeah, at this point I, she, they, you know, they said formula or breast milk, but I, I very much wanted him to be just breastfed, so.

I only had a hand pump at this point, and I remember kind of me and my husband sat on the side of our bed trying to pump for the first time with a handheld breast pump and just getting nothing and yeah, just being like, oh, devastated. But I ordered a hospital grade pump to rent books that the lactation consultants come around again the next day and kind of set off on triple feeding.

Yep. 

[00:17:59] Emma Pickett: Your triple feeding plan you're on. I just can hear you getting ready to go on to ship triple feeding and, and your huge determination to, to stay exclusively breast milk feeding and, and I, you know, I completely understand where that's coming from, but that is also a lot of pressure on you. You know, when a baby's not put on any weight for a week, that's a, that's a lot of pressure.

So I'm guessing you were renting either the Ardo car more the Modela Symphony and your pump arrived. How did that, how did you get on with that without any previous experience pumping? 

[00:18:29] Florence: Yeah. So the pump arrived and so I think the pump arrived at and had LEC lactation consultant appointment that day. So she kind of helped me, showed me how to use it.

She gave me a bit of guidance with, uh, flange sizing. But I think, again, I kind of just thought big boobs equals big flange size. Um, so I think I, I actually went down the rabbit hole of getting bigger flanges. Okay. 

[00:18:53] Emma Pickett: You know, even two years ago. I mean, the thinking around that has changed. So recently, I mean, two years ago, even the most UpToDate lactation consultant would probably be thinking, you know, 24 mls is gonna be fine, and let's you know no more than like going smaller than 21.

But actually these days, literally in the last year, we've been thinking actually it's smaller. It's the size of nipple shield, if not smaller. You're hugging your nipple with the flange. All that thinking has changed completely. So you were going bigger, bigger, ordering the bigger sizes. 

[00:19:23] Florence: I ordered the bigger sizes, then realized that wasn't really working and, and ultimately I think I've ended up, well, I ended up on like an 18 mil, but you know, I, I think at one point I'd ordered like a 28 mil flat size.

[00:19:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:19:36] Florence: So yeah, I, I started pumping, I was getting really small amounts at first. Um, but I think I was getting to a point where I was managing to give him the, the lower end of the range that I was, was told to give for top up, so probably 30 mils. And it, it was gradually increasing day by day, but just, just not enough really, like really small amounts.

And it seemed to really vary. Like one day I'd get. More One day I'd get less and I, I, you know, I was told to pump 12 times a day, essentially, so, whoa, 

[00:20:10] Emma Pickett: 12 times a day. I've never heard anyone being told to pump to pump 12 times a day. Oh, really? That's intense. Um, okay. Wow. So that's triple feeding on, on steroids.

That's, that's intense. So, so pumping 12 times a day, giving the top ups every four to six hours and breastfeeding with a shield in between. Are you doing all this on your own? What is your partner around? What's your support network like? 

[00:20:34] Florence: So at this point, my partner was around, um, my mom would come for a couple of days as well.

So yeah, I had a bit of support from my mom had a bit of support from my husband, so he, yeah, he had. He had four weeks off. So yeah, he was still off of work at this point. And yeah, obviously we knew about the fridge hack, so that was helpful. I wasn't having, I wasn't washing the pump parts. Tell, tell somebody 

[00:20:56] Emma Pickett: about the fridge hack if they dunno what that means.

[00:20:58] Florence: Um, so it means that you can, after you've used your pump parts, you know, or you sterilize them, or actually I've heard recently you don't have to sterilize them anymore, but when I was doing it, had to kind of wash them, sterilize them, you'd use them and, but then after you've used them, you just put them in a sandwich bag and they'd go in the fridge and you could keep just getting them out and using them for, for a 24 hour period.

So only have to kind of clean and sterilize once in a 24 hour period. 

[00:21:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Someone pumping 12 times a day. If they don't use the fridge hack is going to turn into a husk because that is so much washing and, and, and fiddling around with the sink and, yeah. So yeah, I mean that, that recommendation is based on what we know of how breast milk behaves and in terms of, you know, bacterial growth and what we know about breast milk storage.

It's not based on a lot of research, um, because there's not a lot of people doing research like that. Um, but for a healthy term baby, it's not necessary to wash the pump parts every time you use it. That seems to be the consensus. And as you say, current thinking is maybe not even necessary to sterilize something that's just coming into contact with breast milk.

Yep. So that definitely saved your bacon to one degree. So you are obviously trying really hard to get to this minimum amount of supplementing what happened with his weight gain in the next weigh in? 

[00:22:13] Florence: Yeah, so his next weigh in was a, a few days later, I think three days later, and he'd, he'd gained 80 grams in three days and so they, they were quite happy with that and it was agreed to weigh him again in a week's time.

I think at this point as well, I was trying breast compressions and, and switch feeding when I was feeding him at the breast. That was what I was. Being advised, but I think I had the health visitor saying things to me. Then also seeing the lactation consultant saying things to me. And I think I was just finding it, I was finding like information overload and, you know, um, struggling with, I guess like when I was seeing Fred free, like was he active?

Is he active feeding? Is he not active feeding? And it, yeah, I just, I think I felt quite overwhelmed with everything I had going on, and although he had had a bit of a good weight gain, I was just feeling like he was becoming more and more unsettled, especially in the evenings and obviously getting up every two hours pretty much in the night to pump.

It did feel like some dark, dark days, to be honest. 

[00:23:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, one thing that's sort of sparking into my head is that around the two week mark, babies get more unsettled and they have these, you know, these fussy evenings and they're cluster feeding more. And in the first couple of weeks, you know, babies are sleeping and everyone's having dinner and they're thinking, Hey, we can do this parenting business.

And then babies wake up and have evenings where they're just crying on and off or wanting to feed on and off. And so it may be that that was Fred doing the normal stuff that happens at two weeks, but because of where you were, you interpreted that as being a sign of things not going well, and another sign that things weren't right.

Uh, I can imagine for anyone going through this, this how stressful this is. And how, especially when you were someone who had such, such determination to, to meet your goals around feeding, I can hear from your description of, you know, your birth and negotiating when your induction was gonna, so when your C-section was gonna be, you know, from the very beginning as a first time mom, you were really into what your goals were and advocating for yourself.

So feeling that this is outta control and, and must have been really, really scary. And, and lactation consultants aren't cheap. I mean, you're seeing someone, you're talking about seeing someone quite regularly that's quite a financial outlay is nobody yet really helping you understand why it's hurting.

So you're still doing everything with the shield, but no one's going a little bit further into why it's painful. 

[00:24:42] Florence: So at this point with the shield, it wasn't really painful. Um, but Fred just wouldn't take my breasts without a shield. But yeah, so we were starting to try and get him to do like, you know, trying to get away from the shield.

So I think I do things like, you know, skin to skin in bed. Um, when he, he was a bit sleepy trying to kind of get him to latch on without a shield and, and it would work sometimes, but I guess for the majority of the day, especially if I was kind of up and around, you know, like sitting in the lounge, it, I wouldn't be able to get him to, it was only really if we were in bed naked skin to skin.

Um, and he was a bit sleepy. That seemed to be the only time I could really get him onto my breast without a shield. So, yeah, that, that was the main. Issue around the pain there, but actually it was, it was around his day 12 weigh in. And when I saw a lac, the lactation consultant after that, that she mentioned tongue tie and that she thought it would be worth us seeing a tongue tie practitioner to rule that out.

So she recommended our local private tongue tie practitioner. And I contacted her and I, and she came round when he was about three weeks old. So about a week, I think it was about a week lead time from when I contacted her to when to when she could come round. And yeah, she diagnosed him with a, a mild tongue tie.

I think she said like, you know, a few were putting on a scale. It was about a five out of 10, but, you know, given all the problems I was having, recommended getting, uh, it snipped, which we did. Um, but yeah, I, I was one of those people that when I breastfed after the tongue tie just didn't really seem any different to me.

Okay. Sadly. 

[00:26:27] Emma Pickett: Didn't get better in the subsequent days. Didn't improve. So he wasn't latching on anymore easily with that. Okay, thank you for sharing that. So you're painting a bit of a bleak picture here. Florence, you are still not latching without the shield. You're worried about milk transfer, you know, you're having, you're in this sort of triple feeding trap without really a plan to get out of it.

So what are you imagining, you're imagining you're gonna be pumping forever or are you hoping that gradually that would become less necessary and you'd go back to exclusive feeding? Is anyone helping you see the exit from the plan? 

[00:27:01] Florence: Yeah. So that, and that was one thing. Yeah. One of the things that the lactation consultant was kind of helping with, and I, I think, so after the plan was after the tongue tie division, give it a couple of weeks and if, if his weight gain was seeming okay because he, he was being weighed weekly at this point, then to start reducing the top ups.

Um, so the top up, we were doing top ups of our bottle. And yeah, it was kind of to start reducing those bottled top-ups in the aim that he was actually, you know, getting more from the breast, which, although I hadn't noticed any big transformation from the tongue tie division, he'd had a couple of weeks of like, okay, just borderline, you know, about 30 grams a day, um, weight gain.

So we started to try and reduce the top-ups, but as soon as we did reduce the top-ups, it felt like his weight took a bit of a dive again, and it went on for, uh, you know, it what felt like eternity, but was probably only four weeks maybe of, or maybe more like six weeks of kind of continued weekly weigh-ins.

And I kind of felt like my mental health was, well, it, well, it was tethered to whether he'd gained weight that week. And yeah, I guess I felt like I was in this cycle where, yeah, I was doing this triple feeding, but. I wasn't getting there, there was no end date because I wasn't, we weren't, we weren't, we weren't finding the, or solving the problem.

And I think, so one of the things that the lactation consultants said to me is, you know, or I think at this point we were thinking that the nipple shields were really the problem and we needed to get off of those. But yeah, that, that just felt very difficult. And I think, um, I was really struggling with, I'm quite like an active person that likes to be doing things, so, and I was really struggling to ever leave the house with my triple feeding plat.

And 

[00:28:51] Emma Pickett: actually that's a very good point. You pumping every two hours, you are literally running to Tesco's and back. There is no time of any significance outside the house. See, you carried on using the rental pump. You didn't have a sort of out and about version for. For longer periods outside the home? 

[00:29:07] Florence: No, eventually I did, um, stop with the rental and I bought a spectra.

Um, so that, that's what then became my long-term pump. But, um, I think at this point I was still on the modela, but yeah, so I think it was at this point I started to feel a bit like, you know, what am I doing here? Um, it was, you know, putting a strain on all of us. Um, Fred was starting to be more and more frustrated as well, it felt like about latching on, I think, you know, he was probably starting to get a bit of a, an a bottle preference and I think he was starting to get quite annoyed when I was trying to latch him on without a shield.

Uh, and yeah, I guess that I, you know, um, being new to motherhood as well, I think I, I I just wanted to like shower and be dressed for the day and be doing things. I didn't want to lay in bed all day trying to latch him on. But I guess in reflection, I think if we had spent more time in bed, skin to skin, maybe I would've got.

Where I needed to get to. 

[00:30:07] Emma Pickett: Hmm. I'm not sure you're allowed to say that I, that's really cheeky of me, but I don't want you to think, oh my God, if only I'd spent, you know, 10 more hours lying in bed and I dunno, you know, it's so easy to look back, isn't it? And think what could you have done differently? But you've just described busting a gut.

You've just described pumping every two hours, all these lactation consultant visits, all these efforts. You knew your baby. I think you knew what was going on and you knew that, that I Do you really genuinely believe that you could have turned things around with more skin to skin. I'm being really naughty dismissing what you're saying, but I'd just hate to hear anyone giving themselves a hard time about what they should have done differently.

[00:30:49] Florence: Yeah, and I guess, you know, I, I don't give myself a hard time about it 'cause I threw the kitchen sink at it. But I think what ultimately got him back on the breast. Was skin to skin. So that's why I wonder if I had gone more down that route in the early days and you know, just, I think rather than being like, oh, I must get out and get to a baby class, I should have just taken the pressure off and just been like, oh, I'm just gonna, just gonna lay in bed.

[00:31:15] Emma Pickett: But baby classes are also important for mental health too, aren't they? I mean, you just talked to you about being someone who's quite active and wanting to get out and about and if your mental health was calling out to you, we need to leave the house. There's something to be said for listening to those instincts.

Yeah, it's so hard, isn't it, to know what's the right thing. Okay, so spoiler alert, he did, you had a break from the breast and he's going to get back on the breast at the end, which we obviously know 'cause we started talking about him feeding it too. Um, so you are just about to decide to stop breastfeeding?

Is that what's, what is just about to happen? 

[00:31:45] Florence: Yeah, so I'm, I'm on the cusp of that decision and I, and yeah, so I think I decided to try and get out of this triple feeding cycle that felt never ending. Why don't I just. Drop the breastfeeding and it could, yeah. 'cause it just felt like it was upsetting Fred.

It felt, you know, it felt like, who am I doing this for anymore? Because he was getting upset trying to be latched on. Um, even with a shield at this point. It was just starting to, um, yeah, just, just be a stress for everyone. So I basically decided to move to pumping, no breastfeeding, just feeding him, expressed milk.

And the first day I did that, I got like 770 mils of milk. So I was like, oh, I've got a full supply. 'cause I was also still worried, worried about my supply. And yeah, something I kind of missed earlier is that I never had that big rock card boobs on day five that a lot of people talk about. So I kind of always wondered, did I have a bit of an underlying supply issue as well?

And obviously when I was doing the triple feeding. I was probably getting somewhere between like 350 to 450 mils of breast milk a day. So I didn't really, and I didn't know how much he was getting at the breast, so I was never really sure if I had a full milk supply. But yeah, I was, I was guess I was really pleasantly surprised by my, my first day of exclusive pumping and thought, oh, this is great.

And given his weight gain issues, I found a lot of comfort in knowing exactly how much milk he was getting. But then the next day, you know, same again, uh, just pumping. And I got about half the milk that I'd got the day before. 

[00:33:28] Emma Pickett: Oh golly. That is such a difference, isn't it? Yeah. I wonder whether with my sort of Sherlock Holmes hat on, I'd wonder about things like valves and tubing, and that's such a dramatic change.

What, what did you feel was going on? 

[00:33:39] Florence: Yeah, I didn't really know, but it, it really spooked me and freaked me out. So then I was like, oh no, maybe exclusive pumping isn't the right thing to do, and maybe I need. You know, the baby at the breast to stimulate the milk. And that's why day two of, of pumping, I've not, I've all of a sudden had this big drop.

Um, so yeah, at that point I got a bit spooked, went back to triple feeding, um, but also started to look into domperidone, um, which had been mentioned to be by the lactation consultant at some point. As a bit of a last result, 

[00:34:15] Emma Pickett: for anyone who doesn't know, tell us about domperidone. What's it gonna be doing?

[00:34:19] Florence: So domperidone, I think it's a anti sickness medication. Yeah. But it has, um, it has I guess a side effects which, um, increases prolactin, which is the hormone that, um, helps you make milk, I think. Um, 

[00:34:34] Emma Pickett: yep, that's right. 

[00:34:35] Florence: So yeah, this was mentioned to me as an option, as a, a bit of a last resort, but I felt like I was, I was there.

Um, so I asked the lactation consultant about it and said, you know, how do I go about getting it? Do I just go to my gp? She said, you can go to your gp, but they won't prescribe it in the amount that you probably want it. So I actually went down the route of contacting a, a private doctor who is also a lactation consultant.

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: Was that Sharon Silberstein by any chance? Yeah. 

[00:35:10] Florence: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:35:10] Emma Pickett: I'm guessing it might, but most people who are in your part of the world will be getting in contact with the lovely Sharon. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:35:16] Florence: Yeah, see, I got in contact with her and had a kind of video appointment, you know, talked about my situation, and yeah, she was happy to prescribe me domperidone.

So, um, shortly after that, I started to take domperidone and I was taking three tablets three times a day. Um, and again, it wasn't, it wa yeah, it took a while to kind of get, um, my supplier built up, but eventually I did get there. And at this point I'd kind of decided again to try. Once I was on domperidone, I then decided to go back to exclusive pumping again because I was still get having a lot of like, kind of fussy upsetness from Fred being put on the breast.

[00:36:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. And your, on your gut feeling is it's the domperidone that was making a difference. You're somebody who you've felt it really did help you? 

[00:36:10] Florence: Yeah. And I also, something else she recommended, which I tried was oxytocin spray. Um, which I dunno if you've, 

[00:36:17] Emma Pickett: yeah. So oxytocin spray is not commonly given in the uk it is quite rare.

The idea is oxytocin's the hormone that governs the milk ejection reflex and may be a nasal spray, may speed up that process or, or help with that let down reflex did. And did you feel that was useful? 

[00:36:32] Florence: Uh, I tried it and I didn't really notice any difference because yeah, so I, I don't feel my letdowns. Um, so that, I guess it was another thing in this like mix of like, I don't even know if I'm having a letdown 'cause I can't even feel it.

Um, so yeah, I did try the oxytocin and um, but yeah, I decided it didn't really seem to make much of a difference for me. So I, after I'd finished the bottle, I think I just didn't bother to carry on with that. 

[00:36:57] Emma Pickett: Okay.

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What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them, and let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm PE 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Please tell me you're not gonna continue pumping 12 times a day.

What's low? No. Now you've stopped breastfeeding. What does a day look like when you are exclusively pumping? 

[00:39:16] Florence: So, yeah, um, at this point I'm pumping about five to six times a day. I'm taking domperidone, I'm. I'm not getting the, the 750 plus mils that I had, that one spooky day. So at this point, Fred's about eight weeks.

Um, and I decided to introduce Formula because he dropped, he had dropped two Centile lines, so I was kind of on that. What, you know what they call for drink growth? Yeah. So at this point he dropped, he had a weigh in. He had dropped his centile lines. I decided to give formula and actually I came across, um, Lucy Webber's.

She had a, she was doing, I think she was doing a webinar or she'd recently done a webinar on, um. Weight gain and she had quite a good like, calculation of a space or baby's weight, the amount of top-ups you'd want to give. So basically what I did is gave as much in breast milk as I could, but then used formula to, to bridge that gap between how much breast milk I had and how much he should be having in top-ups per this, this calculation that, um, Lucy had.

[00:40:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:40:30] Florence: Which I found really helpful. And that's actually when things started to turn around. And after that he was still being weighed fairly regularly. But from about, um, from a few months after that, sorry, a few weeks after that, we kind of just managed to get a steady weight gain. There were no more drops, um, and eventually could drop the weekly weigh-ins.

[00:40:54] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you're pumping five or six times a day. This is obviously a little while ago, but I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you remember when you were pumping? What did the day look like? What did 24 hours look like? 

[00:41:05] Florence: Yeah, so I think I'd, I'd pump, you know, first thing, and I always, I found I had to pump for quite long first thing, and then after that it, it would kind of be, I guess every three to four hours when he was Fred was about three and a half to four months.

Was what, um, when he first slept through the night on his own. So we're, we're talking about 11:00 PM to say, uh, 6:00 AM But after that he did kind of start consistently sleeping quite well. Then I started when he started sleeping through the night. And given that I was just exclusively pumping anyway, I, and I was on domperidone and I decided to drop the middle of the night pumping, um, which I had been doing up until then.

[00:41:54] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you are, you've moved to the Spectra, you've given back the Modela, but the Spectra's still pretty hefty, so you're not, you know, you're not taking the Spectra to the Costa Cafe. You are presumably you've gotta go out during gaps in between pumping sessions. And was there any part of you that thought, I'm gonna be dropping this pumping and I'm just gonna be exclusively formula feeding?

Was that ever a consideration, or did you really know that you wanted to carry on pumping? 

[00:42:18] Florence: No, I just, I, I felt so strongly about wanting to give Fred breast milk. Um, that, no, I just, I just really wanted to get on, you know, used on Perone to get a full milk supply, and then I was kind of just intent on pumping for, I don't think I, I think I, I think I had feelings of, you know, maybe I won't do this for two years.

Um, maybe I'll just do it for a year. But, uh, I remember some family friends being around and being like, oh, you know, why are you putting yourself. Through this and you know, you sure you want to do this? And them asking me, you know, how long are you gonna do this for? And me being like, well, I want, wanted to breastfeed in for two years.

And them just kind of laughing at me almost. Aw, 

[00:43:06] Emma Pickett: dear. I mean, I guess one of the things I'd like, I'd love to ask you is that, this is something I've heard from exclusive pumpers sometimes, is that formula feeding parents can be a little bit disconcerted by someone who's exclusively pumping. 'cause it, you're putting all this effort in, and that's a choice that they obviously didn't make or weren't able to make.

And then exclusively breastfeeding folks, or also a bit confused about where to put you. Did you feel that, did you find a community, did you feel that sense of kind of being torn between two different communities? 

[00:43:35] Florence: Yeah, I, I definitely did. I, it felt like a bit of a lonely place for, for the reasons you've just said.

And I'd never met anyone that had exclusively pumped. But, you know, my, my friends had either breastfed or formula fed. But I did actually, uh, come across someone, or I think someone in my antenatal group was in a similar situation to me. So we, I guess, bonded and kind of talked about it a little bit. I also, quite late in the day, I found a Facebook group for, in the UK for exclusive pumpers.

So that's quite a good resource and, and community, but I actually didn't find that till quite late on in my pumping journey. 

[00:44:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. So per your pumping, you're exclusively pumping, well, sorry, you're pumping and giving some formula as well. You, the weeks are going by. You're pumping, pumping, pumping. And we already know the answer to this 'cause you've hinted that he's going to get back to breastfeeding again.

And you mentioned that skin to skin was part of how that happened. Does that mean that you had in the back of your head, oh, I'd love to breastfeed again. Does, was that something you never let go of or did you just have this epiphany one day that, Hey, I might as well try, tell, tell us how that came about.

[00:44:46] Florence: I don't think I, I thought I would get back to breastfeeding and it actually, it was almost a bit of a coincidence, but so, so for the first three months of Fred's life, we did co-sleep. Um, but, uh, about three months, my husband said, can we try him in his next me co because, um, it, yeah, it was just getting a bit busy in the bed and I think we all, we all felt like we weren't sleeping that well, co-sleeping together.

So we tried to be in the next me cot and he actually was fine in there. So then we moved to that. Um, then he was in the next me cot, but still in the morning, you know, when he woke, we'd bring him into bed with us and it was actually just, I think in the night I'd got hot. And so it was topless in the morning when I brought him into bed.

And, you know, he's just laid on my chest and then he just randomly shuffled over to my boob, um, and latched off. Yeah. 

[00:45:41] Emma Pickett: So how old is he when this happened? 

[00:45:43] Florence: So I think he was about seven months. Okay. And we moved to exclusive pumping when he was somewhere between three and four months. 

[00:45:54] Emma Pickett: So that's quite a long time, if not breastfeeding.

So he shuffles across attaches. And what's going through your mind? 

[00:46:00] Florence: Well, we, I think me and my husband just like, whoa, what's going on? But, you know, I was obviously, I was very happy and, you know, very happy to let him breastfeed. But I guess because of all, hi, all of his weight gain issues, it wasn't something I wanted to kind of really push.

And, and I think because when we ended our breastfeeding journey, it was partly because I felt like he was getting quite upset and frustrated by it. So I think I, I felt quite a lot of like, oh, okay, this, this is great, but I don't want to push him at all. I want him, I want this to be kind of his decision if he wants to do it kind of thing.

So yeah, after that first time, then it became a thing of every morning, you know, I'd make sure I had no top on. Um, and then if he wanted to, he did. And it just became a bit of a routine that every morning he would breastfeed in bed, but then we would still carry on with his normal, my, my normal pumping and hi his usual bottle feeding for the rest of the day.

And I, yeah, because I think as well I, at this point, I still had a big concern around, or a bit of an obsession with knowing exactly how many meals of milk he got because of his weight gain issues. 

[00:47:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. I think anyone could understand that. So the idea of going woo-hoo, he is breastfeeding, let's just breastfeed all day long, feels quite scary, doesn't it?

To let go of that knowledge of milliliters is, is quite frightening. 

[00:47:23] Florence: Yeah. 

[00:47:24] Emma Pickett: So you had this lovely morning routine. Sorry, go on. 

[00:47:26] Florence: Yeah, sorry. Something I missed as well in my, um, earlier journey is I, when he was around. Somewhere between the kind of eight and 12 week week mark. It got raised again to me by, I think a health visitor that, oh, does he possibly still have a tongue tie?

So we did have a second, uh, con consultation with the NHS this time about around tongue tie when he was just over three months old and they said, yes, he does have a tongue tie, whether it had reattached or had never been done enough in the first place. They didn't know. Um, and, and the women we saw said, we don't usually do it if they're over three months.

I will do it on this occasion if you want to, but at this point he was purely bottle fed and I just didn't really want to put him through it again. And I didn't really get a good feeling about. The doctor that I was with either, so I decided not to go ahead with it. But, but yeah, so I guess when he starts latching on again, I'm kind of like, oh, this is amazing.

But also have in my head as well that he still has a tongue tie. So that's playing into me not really wanting to encourage too much breastfeeding anyway. 

[00:48:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. So how did you get from that place to just breastfeeding? 

[00:48:47] Florence: So it was, it was quite slow, so that, I think there were probably months of, we just had that morning breastfeed.

Um, but we went on holiday when he was about nine months. And, um, actually when we were on holiday, obviously, um, in a bikini a lot of the time. And also I think him being out of his comfort zone, all of a sudden he started wanting to breastfeed more and, and kind of put things he'd never done before, like pulling at my top, um, and trying to breastfeed.

So yeah, on holiday. We kind of got into a bit more of a pattern of breastfeeding and at this point, you know, he's nine months old, he's having three fairly small meals a day. Um, but I guess I felt a bit more confident to, at this point be led by him and if he was having a bit more, uh, and, and kind of let him have a, a bit more time on the breast and, and see how it was going and just, um, he was still, you know, offering him his bottle top-ups, but, or not top-ups, his bottles.

Then it kind of just felt like after our holiday it was a bit of a very slow and steady let him breastfeed when he initiated it, but he started to initiate it more, not just in the mornings at different times of day, and then he just wasn't finishing his bottles anymore. Um, so it was very slow and steady over months.

We kind of moved from just that morning breastfeed to, you know, various times of day. But even so, um. The big transition then was I went back to work at when he was 14 months old and at that point he was still having, I think, three bottles a day and intermittently breastfeeding as well. But actually as soon as I went back to work, it felt like it was almost a compete line in the sand of he no longer wanted bottles and he just wanted to breastfeed.

[00:50:43] Emma Pickett: Okay, so when you are around makes sense. He wants to connect with you when you are, when you're back. Why waste time with bottles? Mommy give me the, give me you. Why want you Yeah, that makes that make, it makes sense. There was that, and actually that's an age also when they're, I think they're much more aware of who we are and that we go and we come back and, and they, and wanting that emotional connection.

And because of his age, because of the solids intake. That felt okay for you? That felt comfortable. That didn't feel scary. 

[00:51:09] Florence: Yeah. 

[00:51:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. So really interesting to hear how gradually you took that journey that you did not put pressure on yourself to rush through it. You didn't kind of put pressure on yourself to drop bottles when it didn't feel comfortable.

He just waited until it felt the right time. And, and just like when he was born, he latched on, he took the lead with this as well, and then now he is back breastfeeding again. Do you remember the last bottle? Do you remember thinking right, that's it? Or was it just, it just faded away? 

[00:51:38] Florence: No. Yeah, I don't, I don't really, I think the, I think the last bottle to drop was the bedtime, the pre-B bedtime bottle.

But yeah, I think I was slowly, sometimes I would offer, you know, did he want to breastfeed, um, before bed? And if not, I'd give him the bottle or I'd let him breastfeed and then I'd offer him the bottle. And I think I kind of vaguely remember just one day him just refusing the bottle completely and just, um, not trying again after that.

And he just seemed happy. Upon the breast. 

[00:52:12] Emma Pickett: And you weren't in pain when he was latching? 

[00:52:14] Florence: No, I, I have still intermittently suffered with a bit of pain, but, um, it seems to be more associated with when he's teething. Although when I've looked into this, there doesn't seem to be any kind of research or confirmation.

No, I think, I think you'll, 

[00:52:30] Emma Pickett: you'll find most breastfeeding practitioners will recognize that story. I don't think you'll find research, but there's a couple of theories. One theory is potentially saliva becomes a bit more acidic and that's causing nipple sensitivity. But I think probably what's more likely is when a tooth comes through, takes 'em a little bit of time to adjust what they're doing with their latching and just relearn what their technique is.

Mm-hmm. Um, so there's teething trouble, um, at that point where they're just relearning. Um, and it can take a few days then to get back into the swing of things again. Yeah, no, I think most people will recognize that that story, if they're supporting anyone breastfeeding beyond babyhood. Okay. So thinking about your, where you are now and thinking about your next breastfeeding journey, what do you feel when you think about breastfeeding the next baby?

[00:53:16] Florence: I think before getting pregnant, I kind of thought I've learned so much and I, you know, I've consumed so much information on, on breastfeeding that I won't, I guess, fall into the traps that I did last time. You know, I'd really try and stay away from Shields personally, I know, I know they work for fine, for some people, I'd be a bit more aware of checking for a tongue tie early doors.

So, see, I kind of have, in my head I, or I've always kind of had in my head like, you know, surely I'll have a better ride next time with what I know. But I think since getting pregnant now, I've kind of thought I'd like to have a bit of a chat with a, a lactation consultant and really, I guess, kind of unpack my breastfeeding journey and, and how to kind of.

Make this one work because I still don't think I ever, you know, I dunno if there was a perfect storm of issues going on with Fred that kind of caused our, well, Fred had me, that caused our situation. But yeah, it doesn't, it, I never felt like I got that black and white answer of this was the problem and you know, we managed to fix it.

[00:54:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I can hear that. There's a bit of a mystery, isn't there? There's something going on with latching, but we're not quite sure what it was and, you know, that is, that doesn't feel comfortable, I'd imagine, to have that unknown. But what's for sure is that there's no way that combination of experiences can hit.

It's quite the same way. You know, everything from placenta position to, you know, tongues and shields at that moment and not getting help in hospital and having to wait till you get home before you get positioning help. I mean, it's, there's no way that combination of stuff will happen again in exactly the same way Bec and you are, you are a very different person.

In terms of, you know, what you need and you'll be tanned on feeding so Fred can keep your milk supply stimulated. Yeah. Which is, that's which is handy too. That's, that's the benefit of having an older nurse Ling, is they'll help protect your milk supply and keep things up and running. If there were any lift issues.

Are you an antenatal, colostrum expressor? Do you think you might do a little bit of that? 

[00:55:14] Florence: Well, so I, I did, well I tried the first time around I didn't get anything. And then, um, I think because of placenta preview I was then advised to kind of avoid it in case it Oh yes, that makes sense. On sense labor.

So, so yeah, I never, I never did any of it first time around, but I definitely would like to this time around 'cause yeah, I'd like to kind of have that there if I need it. 

[00:55:36] Emma Pickett: Well, we're all wishing you the very best of luck. Um, with, with next time around and I'd love to hear what happens with your tanem feeding journey and the rest of your feeding and pregnancy.

Is there anything we haven't covered that you wanted to make sure we mentioned? 

[00:55:50] Florence: No, I don't think so. I guess a couple of things that I've kind of skipped over is that we did. Briefly try. Um, SNS It's an SNS? 

[00:56:00] Emma Pickett: Yes. Oh yes, yes. You mentioned that on your message to me. An SNS That's good to talk about that.

'cause lots of people Dunno what that is. Tell us what an SNS is. 

[00:56:07] Florence: I actually can't remember what it stands for. 

[00:56:10] Emma Pickett: So I think it's supplementary nutritional system, but some people also say supplementary nursing system. 

[00:56:15] Florence: Yeah. 

[00:56:16] Emma Pickett: So that's one brand. There are actually different brands that are called different things, but essentially it's, it's the same process.

Mm-hmm. Tell us what it's about. 

[00:56:23] Florence: Yeah, so the lactation consultant had mentioned it to me as an option and then when I, um, spoke to Dr. Silberstein, she also mentioned it. So it was after the consultation with Dr. Silberstein, I decided to try it. But essentially it's a kind of little very narrow tube that you kind of put into baby's mouth whilst you're breastfeeding so that they're on the breast, um, breastfeeding, but they're also getting that extra bit of milk through the tube, which is.

Uh, links to a bottle that can either kind of go round your neck, um, or I think sometimes I, I think one of the reasons I didn't really get on with it is I'd kind of be holding the cup of milk whilst trying to breastfeed Fred. And it, yeah, it just, for me, it just felt like way too much going on and a bit fiddly.

It would, it would pop out of his mouth as well. And yeah, we, I tried it for, for maybe like two or three weeks, but along with bottles and everything else, it just felt like just got way too much going on here. 

[00:57:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah, some people like it because it means that you can give baby extra milk at the breast and if there's any breast reluctance, although getting a bit fussy about breastfeeding, it might maybe give them more positive associations about being at the breast.

And it's obviously a way to supplement without having to use a bottle, and it might mean you reduce your formula as well. But obviously as you say, it's very fiddly and especially if, if someone's maybe neurodiverse or, or struggles with sensory issues, it's a lot going on at once. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that.

And you said there was a second thing. 

[00:57:51] Florence: Um, so the, yeah. The other thing, I, I did get mastitis a couple of times, especially around the time I moved to, or I started triple feeding. I got it very badly and, and yeah, I've maybe had it three or four times during my breastfeeding journey. And I've also had vasospasms as well, a bit as well.

The first time I got those was up shortly after starting to triple feed as well. 

[00:58:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I guess if there's something going on with latching, it wouldn't be unusual to have those vasospasms too, so, ouch. Lots of pain and lots of, yeah. Um, yeah, a lot going on. And I think everyone would be, will be impressed by your determination and, and, and also the lovely instincts of Fred and, and his desire to latch on again is a pretty magic component of this story as well.

[00:58:38] Florence: Yeah. And that, that's what amazed me, I guess. It's kind of like, you know, it almost felt like if you just leave, leave him to it to do skin to skin, even after months of, of not going near a breast, he still, his instincts still worked and, and told him what to do. 

[00:58:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Three cheers for topless hanging out in the bed in the morning.

Yeah, that was definitely, imagine if you hadn't done that. Imagine if you'd just been someone who've greeted him with your clothes on and whizzed downstairs. You, you would not be here today, you would not be breastfeeding today. So, no. Um, yeah, everything was aligned. Thank you so much for your time today, Florence.

I really, really appreciate it and very best of luck with the rest of your breastfeeding journeys. 

[00:59:17] Florence: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:59:23] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.