Philippa's story - breastfeeding as a blind mum with IGT

My guest this week is an impressive mother of four, Philippa Lomas. She is a single parent. She homeschools her two older children. She trained as an ABM breastfeeding counsellor. She volunteers to support new parents, and she does all this without sight, having been born blind. We’ll be talking about all that, but also her struggles with Insufficient Glandular Tissue (IGT). Philippa shares her experiences with breast augmentation surgery, multiple miscarriages, mental health challenges, supplementary feeding systems and coping with her children's food allergies. She also talks about her work with Blind Parents UK and the invaluable support she received from her family and lactation support teams. 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Blind Parents UK https://www.facebook.com/BlindParentsUK/?locale=en_GB

Philippa’s article on IGT https://www.aims.org.uk/journal/item/igt 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am really excited today to connect with Philippa. That's Philippa Loma from Bedfordshire. We first met Philippa. I'm thinking it was 2018, I'm thinking. Yeah. 'cause your eldest was three and a half. So does that make it 2018? Yeah. Yeah. So Philippa very kindly was one of my contributors to the breast book.

So the breast book is my book for preteens and teens. That's a puberty book that's all about breasts. Apologies for sounding like I'm doing a plug, but this is the reality of where I met. And I went to her home and interviewed her and talked about her breastfeeding journeys at that point with, with just her two girls.

So if you want to hear about, um, Philippa's, um, story, obviously the podcast is how you're gonna do it, but also you can read the breast book and and, and get her her story in there as well. And she was really honest in talking about her journey with Tubular breast syndrome. That was a phrase that the doctors looking after her used.

And we might call it hyperplasia, we might call it insufficient glandular tissue. And we're also gonna talk about the fact, um, that Philippa is, is blind. So as a breastfeeding mom, homeschooling four kids, I'm flipping impressed. A single mom homeschooling four kids who also volunteers at her church and also volunteers for the charity.

Blind Parents UK. Philippa, I don't know how you manage to Homeschool Four kids. Full stop. That is pretty flipping impressive. How is it going? Tell me about your family. How old is everybody?

[00:02:12] Philippa: So, well the, the, the two that have been homeschooled at the moment, um, are Cara, who is 10. Well, she'll be 11 next Wednesday.

Yeah. Happy birthday. She's crazy. Time flies. So when I met you she 

[00:02:24] Emma Pickett: was three and a half. That's I know. Tells you how time has flown. 

[00:02:27] Philippa: Kathy is, is eight. Um, and I think she was about what, seven or eight months when you met me? I think, well, I wrote down 13 

[00:02:36] Emma Pickett: months, but you probably know better than me. That was, I think Yeah, that's 

[00:02:38] Philippa: right.

If it's 2018. That's right. Yeah. Um, it was, it was sort of seven months when I decided to train with the A BM. But yeah. So, yeah, she's eight now. Joy is three and faith is nearly 11 months. 

[00:02:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that's quite a team you've got going there. That's, uh, nearly a football team. Um, I'm, I'm quite impressed. Um, and managing to homeschool with two little ones as well is amazing.

I mean, that really is somebody who is organized and skilled and, and you know, really, really takes a special person who, who's got the capacity and patience to do that. So before we go into a deep dive, um, you just referred to the A BM briefly there, so Yes. I forgot to mention that in the intro 'cause you do so many flipping things.

Um, that you were also an ABM breastfeeding counselor and you were a volunteer on the national breastfeeding helpline for, for quite a while. And now you focus on your blind parents' UK work, which obviously will include feeding support and infant support as well. Yeah, infant feeding support as well. One of the things that we'll put in the show notes is an article you wrote for aims about your breastfeeding journey and about hyperplasia, because I think that's a really valuable article and I think I might have included it in the show notes for a previous episode where we talked about hyperplasia as well.

Okay. So whew, you, you've got a lot going on there, Phillipa, who's with you right now, by the way? Have you got people in at the home with you now? Yes, they're all at home. 

[00:03:59] Philippa: Um, the older two are doing their piano lessons and the younger two are just going, they're getting ready. They're all going off to the park with my best friend, so that'll be cold, but Okay.

[00:04:11] Emma Pickett: Okay, cool. So, um, tell me a little bit, first of all about your own breastfeeding journeys. So one of the things that you described so vividly in the breast book is that realization that. Your breasts didn't necessarily fit what was happening with everybody else's breasts. Mm-hmm. And even as somebody who was completely blind, you okay with me using that phrase?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, you were born without eyes. You don't have color distinction at all. No shading, I know obviously blindness, no light and dark, nothing So that, yeah. So blindness obviously covers a huge umbrella of lots of different types of experience with sight, but you don't have any sight at all.

And you, even, despite that you sense that your breasts were different from quite a young age. Tell us a bit more about that experience. 

[00:04:58] Philippa: So, yeah, I mean, I've got four sisters and growing up there was lots of conversations about, you know, and I've got two brothers. So there was lots of conversations about who has big boobs and who doesn't have big boobs and, you know, all that sort of thing going because teenage boys, you know, and, um, I was about.

I would say 12 when I sort of started noticing that I was growing breasts and then they kind of just stopped. Um, really, and I was left with quite big nipples, like really big areolas and nipples and not a lot of actual breasts. So, um, I kind of was like, you know, still in an A cup for quite a long while.

Um, even when I sort of got 18, 19 and everyone just said, oh, you've got small boobs. Small boobs are okay. You know, not everybody has big boobs. So it, it wasn't till I was about 19 that I sort of said to, uh, said to mom, I'm gonna go and ask the doctor because I don't like them. They're making me not want to wear low cut tops, or, you know, I don't feel comfortable with them.

I want, you know, I want to know. If they're normal, basically I don't have, I didn't have very good self-esteem at this point. Okay. 

[00:06:21] Emma Pickett: So were, were pe other people saying things to you other, so people were just kind of reassuring you? Oh no. Some people have small breasts, don't worry. Mm-hmm. I'm guessing it wasn't, um, you know, obviously feel free not to tell me things about your private life, but, um, you know, you probably not a lot of people were seeing them and, and so they didn't necessarily get a sense that they had that kind of tubular shape.

I remember when we met, you described them as being sort of thin and not really having volume to the actual breasts themselves. Yeah. There 

[00:06:48] Philippa: was nothing, um, there was nothing full about them except for the, the nipples. And I, I was not very confident about my appearance anyway, because not being able to see how I looked, um, I wasn't always sure that I looked okay and I think, you know, everyone else is putting on makeup and all that sort of thing, and I, I'm not doing that and, you know, and I suppose the lack of interest from boys at school.

You know, sort of contributed to that as well. So I'd been in a relationship for a little while, um, about 18 months, and then I decided to end the relationship and that's when I went to the doctors because I just thought, he's gonna tell me it's normal and everything, but I am gonna ask. And it was really scary actually, 

[00:07:33] Emma Pickett: to go, I'm so impressed that you did that, because that's a really brave thing to do actually.

And to go and, and talk to a doctor and, and have no idea what kind of response you're gonna get is a really brave thing to do. So, teenage Philippa Sal, we salute you for being so brave. How, how did that conversation go? 

[00:07:49] Philippa: He was actually really, really, um, really good about it. I mean, he was, he was a lovely gp anyway.

He's retired now, but, and he said to me, I can see what you mean. So he didn't sort of say, oh, you know, you'll grow into them or, or anything like that. He, he didn't say that. He said, I can see what you mean. He said, let me have a think about it and I will get back to you to see if there's anything we can do.

I didn't really sort of say what it was, but he was really good about it and, and didn't make me feel silly. 'cause that's what I was worried about. I didn't wanna feel stupid. I didn't wanna, you know, feel like I was making a fuss about nothing. 

[00:08:27] Emma Pickett: Can I just ask you, at this point was, was breastfeeding on your horizon as something to think about at all?

And I'm guessing as a sort of 20-year-old, it wasn't necessarily at the front of your mind, but I remember you saying that you did have a family with quite a strong breastfeeding culture. Yeah. And you yourself had breastfed until you were a toddler. So was any part of you thinking about breastfeeding or were you really just focused on self-esteem?

Yes. No, I was, 

[00:08:48] Philippa: um, I was like, I don't know how I would ever feed a baby with, with breasts like this. Um, and of course that wasn't on everybody's radar at this point. So he contacted me a little while later and said he'd been in touch with the, um, local NHS trust and they'd agreed to pay for some. Um, some surgery, um, and augmentation.

It did take a while to get to the top of the waiting list, but I, you know, eventually saw the consultant and I said to him, I said, um, you know, how will this affect my ability to breastfeed because I do want children and I do want to be able to breastfeed. And his phrase was, if you could breastfeed before the surgery, you'll be able to breastfeed after the surgery.

Well, of course, nobody knew whether I could or couldn't. 

[00:09:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:09:34] Philippa: When I had the surgery done, he said he was gonna do the implant under the muscle so that it wouldn't interfere with the nipple. 

[00:09:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:41] Philippa: Um, because people who have surgery near the nipple have a lot of trouble breastfeeding, um, because it can cut through the ducts and things like that.

Yeah. 

[00:09:51] Emma Pickett: So you're on, you're in your early twenties at this point? Mm-hmm. When you had, when you had the surgery. Okay. About 2023. Okay. 

[00:09:57] Philippa: 2, 2 23. It 

[00:09:58] Emma Pickett: was 2000. 12. So, um, yeah, I remember you telling me that you were in your hospital bed and a doctor was doing the rounds the next day. Tell, tell us about that. Yeah, and he had some 

[00:10:08] Philippa: students with him and he kind of pulled the curtains around my bed and was like, right guys, this is the patient with Tubular breast syndrome.

And I was like, it has a name. It has a name. And no one 

[00:10:23] Emma Pickett: had said that to you 

[00:10:23] Philippa: before? No one had said that. No. And, and that's the first I ever heard of that, you know, of that condition. 

[00:10:30] Emma Pickett: And, and nobody has ever connected that to a breastfeeding outcomes. So, so apart from that throwaway comment about, you know, if you could breastfeed before you can breastfeed after, no one has said, and by the way, Philippa, let's just talk about breastfeeding.

No, no. Um, that's, that's never happened. 

[00:10:46] Philippa: So obviously I, I sort of came out of that surgery eventually with more natural looking boobs and sort of went from, I think I was a bee cup at that point, to a D uh, a d or an a. And, um, you know, that was, that, was that, that was good. Um, you know, it made me feel better about myself.

[00:11:05] Emma Pickett: Can I just ask you a really practical question with, with the saline, um, implants, do you ever have to have them replaced at some point in your life? What's the longevity of those? 

[00:11:14] Philippa: Yeah, so I should have them replaced. They said they've lost 10 to 15 years. Well, we've gone past sort of about 13, 13 years now.

[00:11:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:25] Philippa: Yeah. 2012. So it is been a while, so I don't know what they're gonna do. They haven't contacted me, I presume. I've got to ask them. 

[00:11:32] Emma Pickett: How do you feel about the possibility of having that surgery? Really tricky when you've got your four girls, I'd imagine. 

[00:11:37] Philippa: Yeah. I'm not sure to be honest, because I do want the replace.

I don't want to go back to what I had, uh, just really because I've got so used to feeling like this, you know, to, to, to knowing. What size they are and how they are. And I just don't want to go back to just nipples basically. 'cause that's all I had. Yeah. Really big puffy olas and nipples. 

[00:12:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can hear that.

So that's a moment of uncertainty for you, and I'm sorry that you are, you're living with that, but I'm hoping you'll find some people that will give you the right support and help you think through the decision that you need to make. 

[00:12:11] Philippa: Yeah. 

[00:12:12] Emma Pickett: And Caris is coming along at some point. How, how old were you when you had Caris?

[00:12:18] Philippa: I was 

[00:12:19] Emma Pickett: 24. Oh, so quite soon after the surgery then? Quite soon after the surgery. 

[00:12:23] Philippa: Yes. I met him actually that same year. Um, I came out of hospital in the April and I met him in the June. We got married in 2013 and car was born in the December of 2014. So, um, yeah, I mean, we hadn't been married that long, but, um, while I was pregnant I was doing all the.

You know, the, the classes. So I had a midwife come out and do an antenatal one-to-one with me. I did contact, um, a doula I knew from joining blind parents uk she's blind as well, and she was offering sessions about breastfeeding and, um, various other things, um, and like birthing positions and all that. So I went and had a breastfeeding session with her and all the way through the message was formula is only to be a last resort.

And they always push formula at you rather than helping you with any problems. There's no need for formula. If you've got a good milk supply and a, and a good latch, and usually problems can be sorted out and you'll find that you produce enough milk. Hardly anyone doesn't produce enough milk. 

[00:13:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's the message, isn't it?

So mm-hmm. That's what people are told and, and no one is saying, tell us about your history, Philippa, let's talk about your surgery. What did your breast look like beforehand? So you can join blind parents UK when you are pregnant. Is that, is that how it works? Yes. So there's antenatal support and, and you are obviously someone now who connects with people and, and helps support, support them.

Yeah. This 

[00:13:53] Philippa: is, this is me now that I'm now doing 

[00:13:55] Emma Pickett: job. The other side of it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. And I'm guessing, and you know, this might sound daft, but if you are a blind parent, formula preparation is an extra layer of headache, I'm guessing. And if breastfeeding can work, that is hugely more practical.

I mean, talk us through what it feels like to sort of prepare a formula bottle and what the sort of, you have to think about if you don't have any sight. Okay. So you have to know that 

[00:14:19] Philippa: for starters, the bottle you're using is clean. Um, because actually that's one of the, the most tricky parts because formula can be a bit.

Lumpy and a bit, you know, it doesn't always get off the bottles. Now the, the safest way for the baby is for it to be made up from scratch with boil water that's not been allowed to call for more than 20 minutes. Practically for somebody who perhaps is not self-sufficient in the kitchen, um, that could be a potential hazard of burning themselves.

Um, because you've got to be able to tip the kettle into this narrow bottle. 

[00:14:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:14:58] Philippa: And you know, the best thing to do is buy wide neck bottles. Um, but sometimes the babies won't take to the wide neck bottles and they have to, you know, and you have to use narrow ones. I did for Kathy, 

[00:15:09] Emma Pickett: and bottles are so light, I'm guessing they get knocked over really easily.

Yeah, they're 

[00:15:12] Philippa: all over and yeah, it's, it can be a nightmare. Uh, it gets very messy and it's not easy. I mean, you get so that you can do it, but it's not easy. And then you, so you get, you know, some blind people. Getting their partner to make up six bottles and put 'em in the fridge before they go to work.

Yeah. Which actually having asked the question from first step to nutrition is safer than the, than the methods of measuring the water into the bottles and letting it cool. Um, you know, on the side before you add the formula. You know, because it doesn't kill the bacteria. 

[00:15:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So adding the powder to the boiled water, the recently boiled water, I think you said 20 minutes.

I think some sources will say, don't leave it for longer than 30 minutes, but the, if, if the hot water's being added to the powder, at least it's, we're killing some of the bacteria in the powder at that point. And even if you, you say that, then that has to go in the fridge and get reheated, which is maybe not first choice practice.

That's better than adding cold water to power. Yes. Because the bacteria's 

[00:16:15] Philippa: already been killed. 

[00:16:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:16:16] Philippa: yeah. Um, as much as it can be. Um, and the fridge will slow any, you know, any more growth of bacteria. 

[00:16:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the, the, the machines which automatically prepare a bottle, which put that shot of hot water into the formula.

Unfortunately that's not enough hot water to kill the bacteria. And, and if you look at the he this advisors advisories from all the different health organizations, um, you know, first Steps, nutrition Trust has information on this as well. It, it's not ideal and they're also really hard to clean. I mean, if you're a blind parent cleaning one of those prep machines, I dunno how you get all the little tubes and, and it's really fiddly for every, anybody to clean.

Um, so we've sort of given a bit of a spoiler in that you, you did have to use formula, which I think anyone here in your history will understand. Um, but before we talk about this in any more detail, let's go back to you. So you're pregnant, you've been having your antenatal classes with, which had lots of positivity around breastfeeding, and it works out for most people and very few people don't make enough milk.

And then Caris is born. Tell us a little bit about her birth and your, and your early breastfeeding. 

[00:17:16] Philippa: They also said it didn't matter about the size of your breasts or anything like that, you know, people with flat chests can produce loads of milk. And so it was all very encouraging. Um, and I had mentioned my surgery to, uh, the midwife that did my antenatal class, and she said, well, if it's under the muscle, it shouldn't be, you know, it shouldn't be an issue, whatever.

So, um, car, um, I had to be induced because my blood pressure was mucking around and I was on blood pressure medication for a few weeks before she was born, but it went up too high and they were like, no, we're gonna induce you. So that was that. Um, it took four days to get me into labor and then she actually, I was on the drip and she, uh, was born within about 19 hours, um, of being on the drip, which isn't too bad.

I tried to do everything without pain relief, but I couldn't stomach the gas and air any sick, so I had to, in the end, give in and have an du. Um, 'cause I think I've been sort of four days up and about and I was just so tired. Um, but again, you know, I'd been sort of told that the, the best start to breastfeeding is not having any drugs or anything like that.

She was born, she latched straight away and I was just like, wow, this is actually happening. My body is actually feeding my baby. You know, and she knows what to do and it just felt so, so natural and so right. And they kept saying to me, and I could not understand why, they kept saying to me, well, we have to keep testing our blood sugar now.

It wasn't until my GP different one to, to, um, the one that did breast surgery, he said to me afterwards, it's because you are on Li Olol and it lowers baby's blood sugars. And nobody had told me that. Tell us a bit more about that. What's Li Olol is a drug for lowering blood pressure. Okay. It's the beta blocker.

[00:19:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:19:06] Philippa: And so when you've taken it during your pregnancy and it crosses the placenta. It can lower your baby's blood sugar. So they have to have, after you fed them for the first time, they then have a F they have a, I was gonna say finger prick, but it's in their foot and um, they test the blood sugar and then they test it before the next feed to make sure they have maintained that blood, blood sugar.

Okay. So Caris wasn't maintaining her blood sugars. Um, and I remember I was very, very sort of tired and disorientated. I mean she was born at about quarter past 11 in the morning and by the time, you know, um, they said to me, oh well she's not maintaining her blood sugars. It was awful through the afternoon.

And the midwife was just like, she said, do you mind if I try hand expressing a bit of colostrum so that she is interested in latching? 'cause she was quite sleepy at this point. And she'd had the cord around her neck and you know, there'd been various things, you know, she was quite sleep. Anyway, we couldn't really get her interested.

So they kind of said, right, we'll try again in a little while. We'll start the blood sugars again from scratch. And then, um, we went up to the ward and um, she fed again and they did another blood sugar. And they said, it's not high enough. We need to give her some formula. And I was like, but why? Why can't I just feed my baby?

And they just kept saying, well, I have blood sugars and not, and I was like, but if you just let me feed her, and I couldn't get my head around it all. Yeah. Um, and they were like, we can get you a pump. And now I'd been told not to start expressing until sort of week six, you know, because of, um, of getting an oversupply.

And I was like, why would I want a pump? Why can't I just feed her, you know? And I said, I don't want her having a bottle. I don't want her having formula. And they eventually said, well, she needs formula to make her blood sugars go up. And I said, well, that's fine, but you've got to cut feed her. So I made them cut, feed her.

And as soon as her sugar stabilized, I told them I didn't want any more formula and we went home late the next day and she wasn't having any more formula at this point. 

[00:21:18] Emma Pickett: So you're exclusively breastfeeding at home? Yeah. It's you and your husband, um, at this point. And just to say, your husband's also blind as well, and you were caring for Caris.

Again, no one really talking to you about feeding. You're not getting any really, you've had no specialist support. No one's really explained why her blood sugar levels weren't increasing with just breastfeeding. 

[00:21:38] Philippa: And Caris was very unsettled, very clingy. And, and I kind of thought, well, you know, I've been told about this fourth trimester thing.

You know, babies like to be on their moms. They like to be on the boob because they want to suck. And that's how they connect with their mom. And they know, you know, and milk's not just about food, it's about comfort, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought that was okay. You know, and so she was, she was born on a, we, um, yeah, she was born on a Wednesday and we were out on the Thursday night, uh, Friday the midwife came to visit and she sort of said, are you getting plenty of wet nappies?

And I said, yeah. And she passed past the meconium and, you know, it was all, all okay at this point. And, um, they obviously don't wait until day five. So by the Sunday, she had only put on, uh, like not enough, she'd lost a significant amount. Okay. She lost about, uh, 8% of her birth, no, 6% of her birth weight. Um, and she wasn't, wasn't gaining again, 

[00:22:44] Emma Pickett: okay.

[00:22:45] Philippa: As much as they would like. So, um, she said, I'll come out again. Tomorrow and we'll wear her again and we'll see how much she's put on overnight. She looks, you know, sort of perfectly healthy, but she was just very mom-ish, um, as I thought, and didn't really want to be away from me. And every time I stopped feeding her, she'd fall asleep on the, on the boob and then she'd immediately I put her down, wake up and want more.

And I just thought that's how she was. You know, if I kept her on me, she'd sleep for longer. You see. 

[00:23:15] Emma Pickett: Can I 

[00:23:15] Philippa: just 

[00:23:15] Emma Pickett: ask you a quick question about, um, positioning? What kind of positions did you like to use and, and did you just kind of work that out between the two of you or was there kind of input in your antenatal education around positioning that you found helpful?

[00:23:28] Philippa: There wasn't input at that stage. So I was just doing cradle and I was leaning towards her and, uh, sort of like presenting her with my nipple, if you like, and getting her to latch on that way. Okay. And they said try bringing her to the breast, but I really didn't know what that meant at that stage. But, you know, every time everybody watched feeds, they, they said she's sucking and swallowing.

And I said to them, you know, she does fall asleep, um, quite quickly. But I didn't really want any interference at this point. 'cause like I didn't want formula. So round about day 10, they came out and did the, the sort of health visitor assessment. And it wasn't my normal health visitor. And she, she just, uh, gave me all the, the sort of spiel that they do, um, all the information they give you the first visit.

And she said she looks perfectly content. She looks as if you are doing exactly what you know she wants you to do. Um, and it's all good. And because like I said, if, if I kept her on me, she slept. Um, and she would sleep for about four hours at night. And when she weighed her, she was almost up to birth weight.

So she said, we'll get, um, midwife to come and do, you know, a check at two weeks and hopefully discharge you. So I'd previously, before that I'd been to, uh, the GP for a blood pressure check. And I mentioned to him, I said, she hasn't pooed in a few days. And he said, well. She should be okay. You know, you know, she, she's breastfed.

Um, but obviously, let me know if she hasn't ped soon. 

[00:25:03] Emma Pickett: Just for anyone who doesn't know as a breastfeeding counselor and a breastfeeding supporter, what would you say now to a mom who said, my newborn hasn't ped for several days? 

[00:25:11] Philippa: That that's not right. Yeah, because at this point she hadn't pooed for maybe like three days and she was seven days old.

Um, so, you know, she'd done loads of poos between day, um, zero and four, and then it all just stopped. But I was getting loads of wet nappies. So they, they came and they weighed her, um, again, and they actually sent her to the pediatrician on the, um, when she was about eight days old because she hadn't, uh, pooed and she'd put on 20 grams overnight.

So they weren't really concerned that she wasn't getting enough. And pediatrician looked her over and he examined her and he said there isn't any poo in her system. You know, like in her tummy. She doesn't feel like she's banged up or anything and it will just happen when it happens. Um, and he put his finger in her mouth and he said she doesn't have a tongue tie 'cause she can tap my finger.

Boom. You know? Okay. No tongue tie. Um, and then, uh, comes sort of like, like I said, the health visitor visit and uh, then the midwife comes at um, 14 days and she says, right, well she's half an ounce off birth weight, so I'm going to discharge you 'cause I think everything's okay. And she actually had ped by this point.

But you know, people just said to me, maybe you are just, you are a just offerer and you know, there's no waste. So why would she poo She hasn't got any waste to, to kick out. And I was like, okay. And at this point my family is sort of saying, why don't you give her a bit of formula to, you know, to give your boobs chance to refill because she's on you all the time.

You know? And I was like, no, no, it is not any such thing as an empty breast. You know? 

[00:26:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. The refilling thing is not, not a thing we know. Yeah. It's not, that's not how milk production works. Yeah. 

[00:27:03] Philippa: Um, so I just said, oh no, you know, it's fine. And then Christmas Eve, um, she slept all night. Um, and I woke up with milk and like really full, full boobs as far as I can get, which is just about three centimeters back from my areola.

And my boobs were all lumpy. And, and I was really pleased. I was like, yeah, I've got, I've got those of milk. Um, and obviously she woke up and she had that and she was just really lethargic and, um, she was not happy unless she was latched on basically. And then she'd fall asleep and she made these clicking noises and kind of, and so carried on like this and she was sort of, she would cry a lot.

She was a very fretful baby, thought it was colic, you know, I thought it was just all the normal stuff and I tried to be really calm about it and be like, oh, you know, I am doing everything I can. 

[00:27:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:27:58] Philippa: Putting her to the boob every time she asked, you know, it was just, it was just quite full on. Um, got four weeks old and, and I mean, my mum was saying to me, you know, you should give her a little bit just so she's a little bit of formula maybe, just so she's, um, happier and see if it settles her more.

And I was like, no, I don't want to. I. I mean, you know, my sister bought her a little bottle of readymade and I did give her a little bit and she wouldn't drink it. Um, and I was like, right, well, she obviously doesn't need it. So I was very, very against giving any sort of supplement because I was determined that I was gonna be enough.

And I, I did doubt it in, you know, in the back of my head. And I was like, really? But because I'd been fed all this stuff about, not many people can't make enough milk, I was like, I should be able to make enough. So she was weighed again at four weeks, and she'd put on about half an ounce in a fortnight.

Okay. 

[00:29:00] Emma Pickett: That must have been a pretty rough conversation. Yeah. When he realized that, 

[00:29:03] Philippa: and I happened to have just got her out of the bath, um, and I'd got her wrapped up in a blanket and my mum wasn't with me. And my husband's gone out volunteering, um, to a voluntary job. And, um, to be honest, he hadn't really coped very well with having her anyway.

He got postnatal depression. Okay. And he wanted nothing to do with her. So, oh, I'm 

[00:29:23] Emma Pickett: so sorry, Philippa. That's not what you need on top of everything. That's hard for everybody. 

[00:29:28] Philippa: So, yeah, he wouldn't hold her. He wouldn't dress her. He wouldn't do anything with her. So it was all me or mom, you know, my mom wasn't present when the health visitor came.

Um, and she said, oh, have you bathed her all by yourself? At which point I wanted to shoot her because I was just like, yes, I am able to bath my child myself. And she kept going to me. Where's your mom? I, I don't live with my mom at this point. I'm 25. I don't live with my mom. So anyway, I phoned mom because she was gonna come anyway when the health visit was here.

Just because sometimes professionals can get a bit funny. 

[00:30:07] Emma Pickett: That implication that you, you can't mother your own children is, I can't, I can't imagine what that must feel like. Is that, is that the first time that had really hit you or even in pregnancy? Was that something 

[00:30:17] Philippa: All the, so when I was induced and I was like waiting for the, um, induction to work, there was one of the midwives that came round and asked me what help I'd got at home.

Um, and, you know, if I'd got support in place, where was the baby gonna sleep, where were we living? Who was living with me? And I was just a bit like seriously. Uh, and I was very, uh, off with her and I was like, look, I have a family support network around me. My mom's here right now. There isn't anything that you need to worry about.

So that had happened in hospital and, and before that, my midwife had actually been looking into getting me some. Um, she was looking around to see if there was any extra support for me, but she didn't check with me first. So when she said, oh, I've been ringing, you know, the um, social services and I've been ringing HomeStart, I was like, what?

Excuse me. You know, I said, there is no need for social services. I said, I do not want any contact with them because I know what happens. So she said, okay, so you don't want any, you know, she said, I wasn't doing it 'cause I was worried about your parenting. I was worried, you know, thinking that you might want some extra support to go places or, you know, to go to baby groups and stuff.

And I was like, no, I don't want any of that. So that had happened. Yeah. Um, so when the health visit came and she was like that, I was like, seriously, you know, um, yet again. So mum came, 'cause she kept asking me, the health visit kept asking me is she having seeds in a nap? And I said. I don't think so. Can't feel any seeds in her nappies.

She was asking me about her feeding routines and all that, and I was getting quite distressed at this point because she was just sort of asking me stuff and, and she was basically saying I wasn't enough for my baby. 

[00:32:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:32:12] Philippa: Um, and she was like, you, you have to give her some formula. 

[00:32:16] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm so sorry, Phillip.

This is just, it just sounds such a long time where you were, yeah. You had all this hope and mm-hmm. And the hope had come from your antenatal education as well, and you were working so hard and, you know, weight gain wasn't terrible at the beginning. I mean, you know, 6% loss, or I think you said, or 6% off birth weight in the first week is completely with a normal realm.

So everything looked like it was going in the right direction. And now at this point, to be told, no, it's absolutely not. What, what is needed, and this is a, this is a serious situation. Must have been, yeah. Extra grim. It was horrid. An extra grim coming from someone who also you felt wasn't being respectful or supportive.

So not only was it horrible news, but it was delivered by somebody that you didn't feel was on your side. I mean, I have to 

[00:32:58] Philippa: say, once she got used to me, she was one of my biggest supporters. 

[00:33:02] Emma Pickett: Oh, fantastic. Okay. Good. Good to, it did all change. She was, she was brilliant. 

[00:33:06] Philippa: Um, but it was just this first date and, and she was really like upset to have to tell me this.

I mean, she did put her arm around me and she did cuddle me and she said, you are doing really well. And I said, well, obviously I'm not, obviously I'm not doing a good job because this baby's not gaining weight. Um, and so mom went over the chemist and she gave her, she got some formula and um, they said, right.

First of all they said, right, give her three bottles a day of four ounces. And I was like, that's way too much. Said, that's not a topup, that's a whole entire feed. 

[00:33:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:33:38] Philippa: So I was really annoyed and I, I sort of just went, oh, I don't need to feed her, you know, I don't need to feed her, someone else can. If she's not having my breast, she doesn't need me.

Anyone can feed her. And I kind of just went, yeah, mom, you can take the baby, you can take the bottle. And mom was like, no way. She's like, this is your baby and you feed her. And she said, you know, you are not doing a rubbish job. She still wants you. You're still her mom. And I'm like, yeah, but anyone can feed her.

I don't need to be her mom. 

[00:34:09] Emma Pickett: Oh, Philippa. 

[00:34:10] Philippa: And that was exactly how I felt. And then they rung us and they said, you need to give her actually four ounce, uh, four um, top ups of four ounces. So 16 ounces a day. And I was like, well, there's no point in me feeding her at all then. And she was like, yeah, there is, because you're giving her, you know, antibodies and all that.

And, but she did say, I'll get somebody from the feeding team to, to come and assess because I wonder if she might have a tongue tie. And, uh, then they came back out with, um, a nursery nurse the same day to work on some different feeding positions with me. Right. And at this point I've just, I was just beside myself and Carrie had slept for like three hours 'cause she'd had this bottle of formula, um, and I felt rubbish.

And they were like, you need to hire a breast pump and all this sort of thing. So I was trying to work that out and she, they were like, you need to start pumping. Or I only have manual pumps at this stage. So I did go and buy a breast pump and stuff, and it was like a single electric one. And you know, I, I did it sort of try and I had been trying to see how much milk I could get out with a pump beforehand, and it was never very much.

And I just assumed it was 'cause she'd had it all. So anyway, all this was going on and at this point I'd gone to my parents' house because they said basically, you know, you need to, to have some moral support. And the nursery nurse came and she said, I should have gone home by now, but I'm, I'm coming out of my way to, to teach you some different positions.

And, and I was like, what? Am I supposed to be grateful? Yeah. It's not really how you 

[00:35:45] Emma Pickett: open that conversation 

[00:35:46] Philippa: at this point. I was just like, I'm done. Go away. Leave me alone. So they showed me laid back breastfeeding or whatever. It's biological, you know, uh, breastfeeding, biological nurturing 

[00:35:57] Emma Pickett: is one 

[00:35:57] Philippa: phrase for it.

[00:35:57] Emma Pickett: There's lots of different ways of describing it. Yeah. 

[00:36:00] Philippa: Basically where you lay back and you have the baby. On top of the breast rather than underneath. Caris absolutely hated it. She couldn't get her nose out of my boobs. She was just like, what the heck are you doing to me? I did it while they were there and then they, they sort of tried to show me how to latch, cross cradle and latching cross cradle for a blind person, by the way.

Wow. Uh, yeah. It's, it's one of those tricks that if you master it, great, but it's just, it doesn't even seem feasible because you've got to be able to hold your baby's sort of neck with, like, to support the head with the opposite arm, so the breast you wanna feed from, but you've then got the problem of you actually need to feel the baby's mouth.

And that's what they were telling me off for, for feeling her mouth and bringing my nipple to her mouth. And I was like, but how do I know otherwise that she's opening her mouth? 

[00:36:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:37:00] Philippa: And where to aim. Um, and so, you know, I said, kept saying to 'em, I can't do this cross cradle thing, because they were saying, um, get her at the right place and she'll just latch on herself, like, put her nose to towards your breast and she would, I said, but I can't see where my breast is to like what I supposed to do.

Just wave the baby around. She's on herself. Yeah. The 

[00:37:21] Emma Pickett: cross cradle position is definitely a position that assumes you can direct the baby to the nipple. I mean, that is, it's like, you know, it's like throwing a dart at to Dar or do you mean it's not, well, your nipple's slightly bigger than a dart, but it's, it's not baby led.

For someone to say that a cross cradle position is baby led, I think is a little bit misleading. They were saying 

[00:37:37] Philippa: that if I did that, you see, she'd open her mouth more because, you know, I was sort of not supporting her head. I was kind of like, um, I'd got her head in the crook of my arm all the time and it, she couldn't bring it backwards to be able to open her mouth properly.

So they were trying to get me to do that. And do you know what, I actually did crack it. And so every time a professional was there, I was like, just latch you on cross cradle. Uh, so they don't whinge at me. So I had to have my other hand sort of pinching my, my breast into shape and I had to have two fingers on her cheek to see where she was, um, and, and how to get her on.

And I, it was right faff. So anyway, I kind of struggled on and I was pumping, I was giving her bottles until the feeding support could come out. And this was a Friday. And I, to be fair, the feeding support lady came out on the Monday and it was very quick. Between this time I visited my in-laws and they were, uh, they didn't say it at the time, but they were absolutely horrified at what they called the state of my baby.

Oh, golly. Because she was, according to them, she was pale and she was thin and she was, um. Looked like a starved 

[00:38:52] Emma Pickett: child. Oh, Philip, I'm so sorry. This is, and this is something you found out later on. They didn't say this to you in person. They didn't say it in person to me. They rang my husband after we'd left.

And this is someone who's already, who's experiencing, you know, post birth depression and is already in a really low point, and they're just ringing him in, sharing that bit of information on mm-hmm. That can't have been helpful. 

[00:39:12] Philippa: Um, and then, so my dad ended up speaking to, uh, my mother-in-law and was like, look, they think she's got a tongue tie.

You know, she's being chopped up on formula. It's ongoing, it's nothing to, to actually worry about. It's, it's in hand. And they were like, oh, you know, we'll buy you a perfect prep machine. We, you know, all this. And I was like, wait and see if she actually remains on bottles because I want to get my milk supply back and I want to drop this muck.

You know, because that's how I felt about it. And she just cried every time I gave her the formula. She cried. She cried and cried. And she'd wanna go straight back to the breast, even when she'd sort of finished the bottle of formula. And I got so frustrated at one point, and I just said to my sister, you take her goodness sake, you take her.

She doesn't need me to feed her. And she was like, no, she wants you. She doesn't understand why you're getting upset. You know? And, but it was really, really messed with me, so, oh, I can imagine. Um, I just felt like I was never enough. Yeah. You know, it wasn't enough. I was stupid for trying, you know, and I thought everything was going well, and then it made me doubt myself.

So anyway, she was on this formula and having bottles and then coming back to me and I was having to pump. And I was like, what is the point in me having to pump when she should be attached to me? She should be doing this herself. And I was getting hardly anything out of the pump. And it was just ridiculous.

Like, you know, I'm, when I say hardly anything, I'm talking 20 mils. Um, if I was lucky, out of each side, 

[00:40:43] Emma Pickett: you mentioned the, the feeding support team coming along. Mm-hmm. Is there gonna be a point where someone is gonna talk to you about your history with your breasts? Yeah. 

[00:40:50] Philippa: So they came out on the Monday and they said, yes, she's definitely got a tongue tied.

We need to, um, get you a, a double pump. We need to, you know, do all this. And I mean, she was absolutely lovely and she was the main reason that I went into training to be a breastfeeding counselor because she was a breastfeeding counselor. And honestly, she gave up so much of her time to just listen to me moan about how awful I felt.

I'd had to wait till she was 10 weeks old to get her tongue type up. Um, so, and I was doing like double pumping. I was feeding her and I was then giving her a bottle or someone else was, and I was pumping. And I would wake myself up in the middle of the night, uh, twice to do pumps. Uh, it was horrific. Um, I have to say it was awful.

And I kept thinking to myself. You know, if I just pump an extra session, if I just pump a bit longer, if I just eat this, if I take that, if I, you know, I was taking galactic dogs, I was taking all sorts of things in the hope that it would give me a bit more milk. You can 

[00:41:52] Emma Pickett: hear how hard you're working.

There's so much determination here. 

[00:41:55] Philippa: Yeah. And it was like, um, meanwhile, my in-laws were saying, what's the point in you breastfeeding? It's just for you, you know, you're doing it to be a martyr. You're not doing it for her. You're, you know, you're doing it to prove a point and you know, there's no point you're giving her her milk, her your milk because it's not enough.

Uh, so I was getting all that as well. Um, and still giving her formula from a bottle. And then somebody, I think I went on the site to do the pump hire, and we saw this. Supplemental nursing system and it was, it was like a bottle that you hung around your neck and then two thin tubes came down and you attached the tubes to your nipple with sort of tape or tuck under your bra or whatever.

And so the baby could get the supplement at the breast and it sort of meant that you didn't have to pump as much because the baby was still stimulating the breast while getting the supplement. And it made the baby more determined at the breast. So I did start doing that when she was about four months old and I was having a conversation about it with my breastfeeding counselor.

I said, well, you know, how come I wasn't told about this? And she said, well, I just thought you had so much to deal with. And the system itself was so tricky that I didn't wanna add another thing into the mix. She said, but I'm really sorry if you felt that could have helped. Um, and I said, I don't understand.

And I did tell her about my surgery, um, because everyone kept saying to me, well, your breasts look really normal. They don't look, you know, as if they shouldn't produce enough milk. But this counselor, she said to me that there's a wide space between your breasts. I said, well, there always has been. And she said, what were they like before you had the surgery?

And I described them to her and she said, I think you have insufficient glandular tissue. And it is so much made sense. Yeah. You know, four 

[00:43:45] Emma Pickett: months before someone's saying that to you, oh, Phillipa, I can't imagine. 

[00:43:50] Philippa: So I then I kind of stopped pumping, um, because I was giving her everything at the breast, and I only pumped in the middle of the night.

Or if she went for a long stretch because she actually slept really well. She, she always slept really well in the night. She'd do three or four hours. And they told me that was exhaustion because she, you know, uh, because she had been working so hard. Uh, she had a tongue tie car and we went, took her to an osteopath and all, did all the things that we could, and I, I think I was on about 20 different supplements a day trying to get my milk supply up.

And it did increase, but not much. And everyone kept saying to me, well, after six weeks, you know, that's it really. It just set us down what it's gonna be. Um, so I gave up pumping around about four months, and at six months, when she was six months old, I discovered that I was actually pregnant again. So I stopped feeding her because she was quite happy to be on a bottle.

Okay. If I offered it to her, she would take boob, but she wasn't overly fast.

[00:44:56] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them. And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm pe 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

You know what we haven't even talked about. I, um, car's, dairy allergy. We haven't even talked about that. That's a whole, yeah. We haven't 

[00:47:08] Philippa: got there yet. 

[00:47:08] Emma Pickett: Oh. Haven't, hasn't been that hasn't been diagnosed. Hasn't been diagnosed. Okay. Okay. 

[00:47:12] Philippa: I, and I kept saying all the way along the formula makes her miserable.

She, she constipated, she, um, you know, she's really not doing well on this formula. And basically that was just put down to me not wanting to give it in the first place. And it wasn't that I was making it up wrong, because actually we were doing the really expensive ready made stuff all the time because I'm just, I was, I was putting it in the supplement and the, uh, the hassle of making it in a bottle and then pouring it into the supplemental was just like, that was too much.

[00:47:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:47:42] Philippa: So sort of seven months-ish, she's on bottles and then I lost the baby, I'm sorry. Um, while we were on holiday and I sort of said to mum, I don't wanna put her back on because. I just, I can't, I can't think about it now. 

[00:47:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:47:58] Philippa: But she would've gone back on, I think, um, and would've carried on feeding.

And I, you know, I'd initially stopped because I wanted a break if it was gonna be like that again next time. Yeah. I wanted a bit of space. So, um, I then had another miscarriage when she was one. Um, and then I went on to have her sister 

[00:48:18] Emma Pickett: Kathy. Yeah. I'm so sorry about your losses on top of everything Philippa.

What, what an intense first year of car's life you're contending with so much. Yeah. Do, do you mind me asking whether your husband was better at this point? How it, no, he wasn't 

[00:48:31] Philippa: better. 

[00:48:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:48:32] Philippa: Um, he was having counseling and stuff, but he really didn't sort of bond with her until she was about two-ish. 

[00:48:40] Emma Pickett: Okay.

[00:48:41] Philippa: So I was, I was still pregnant at the time. And the miscarriages, obviously they didn't, didn't help because he knew, you know, I wanted another baby and he wanted another chance to do it all again and. It wasn't happening. So anyway, um, I got pregnant with Kathy. Everything was okay. Blood pressure was mucking around again, but it managed to stay under the radar just enough for me not to have to have the beetle log.

Okay. What were you feeling about breastfeeding this time? So I decided, um, I would get, um, in touch with, um, an I-B-C-L-C before I fed her. And I joined this group on Facebook, uh, for supporting IGT moms. And I learned a lot from them. Um, I had, you know, been banned off, um, a normal breastfeeding group because I had said that actually there are cases where people can't produce enough milk.

So I did get banned off, off one of those. What? Yeah, because, you know, I was being controversial and, um, I was undermining things, so I was just like, all right. Okay. Whatever. And I decided I'd get this feeding plan in place and I started taking alfalfa and go through in the hope that, um, I would produce some more tissue.

And I was determined not to be on the beetle oil because, um, I had actually been told as well that the beetle oil can reduce your milk supply. So I was telling not to be on that and I hadn't been on any, any contraception in between times because of it doing something to milk supply. So when I had her, I thought, oh, I'll more clued up this time.

You know, um, I'm gonna get someone out straight away to cut the tongue tied because I know that there will probably be one. Um, I'm gonna get someone out to look. So, um, and I spoke to my sort of lactation consultant quite a lot, and we formulated a plan and she said, you know, just be prepared that it's gonna be the same sort of thing this time that you won't produce as much milk as you want to.

So, um, I was all sort of. Geared up for it this time as I thought. But I thought if I took the right supplements during pregnancy, I would grow more tissue. 

[00:50:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:50:54] Philippa: And I started expressing colostrum and I could get quite a bit of colostrum, actually. I could do colostrum, just, I couldn't do the full feeding.

So when she was born, um, I'd only had Li Olol for a few days while I was actually being induced. Um, because I'd had to go in, in the middle of the night 'cause I felt so rough. Um, I woke up sort of being sick and I thought, well, something's not right. Okay. So went in the middle of the night and after five days, I still wasn't in labor.

So they eventually they said to me, you can carry on and see what happens, or we can give you an emergency cesarean. And I was like, I want a cesarean 'cause I can't sit here any longer. 

[00:51:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:51:38] Philippa: So anyway, I, I had the cesarean and they said, well, you know, you'd never have got her. Um, by yourself? 'cause she was diagonal.

[00:51:47] Emma Pickett: Oh, okay. That makes my sense. And I was 

[00:51:48] Philippa: like, could somebody not have figured this 

[00:51:50] Emma Pickett: out with a scan? Yes. Do we not live in the 21st century where there are scans? Um, how, how was her early breastfeeding? How did things feel different once she was on the breast? 

[00:51:59] Philippa: So again, it, she latched straight away.

Everything was good. I knew that they were gonna have to, um, probably do blood sugars, but actually she escaped the blood sugars because I hadn't had libi ol for as long and they didn't feel it would've crossed the placenta. So that was okay. Um, and I, and I had initially said to mom, I'm never doing this again.

It's just awful. You know, I can't, I can't go through this ever, ever again. And this time I'd said to them, I want a pump from the word ghost. That was fine. That was provided Any sort of top up she had were by cup. Um, and that was all good. And they were saying to me, 'cause I, I get quite a lot of colostrum out, they were saying.

Are you sure you've got a breastfeeding problem? I was like, yes sir. I am sure I've got a breastfeeding problem, but I'm hoping this time it will be better and maybe I'll only have to give her one top up. So anyway, we were in there long enough for them to weigh her. I think it was day three or day two.

Um, and um, they said, oh, weight gains good. And she was pooing. So they did discharge me. Um, and I went home and I was just, because I think I was traumatized from having everything happen during the labor and I just wasn't in a good place. And then I tried to feed her myself and she just wasn't satisfied and I ended up having to give her the formula.

But I did do it through the supplement system. Yeah. This time, pretty much straight away. 

[00:53:29] Emma Pickett: And I'm guessing, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you, you felt more in control of that process? That I thought I would, you felt mentally different. Okay. Are you saying that didn't, I 

[00:53:37] Philippa: thought I would. I I didn't, I, I had set myself up to believe that if I took all the right supplements and I did all the right things from the get go, I would be far better off and produce far much more milk than, than I had the last time.

And it just wasn't true. And then I sort of blamed the cesarean and then I blamed the long labor and I just didn't want to, didn't want to admit again that I wasn't enough. And it took several months for it to settle down into a routine where I would, you know, I would just feed her and then, but she was a boob monster.

She absolutely, even, even when I gave up using the supplemented, because it, it leaked everywhere. Uh, she, she really wanted to be on the boob most of the time. Um, but I, I'd got to the sort of stage where I didn't wanna go out because I didn't want to have the supplement on or even give her a bottle, because that would reveal to the whole world that I wasn't enough.

[00:54:41] Emma Pickett: Aw. Full. 

[00:54:41] Philippa: So I didn't really wanna take her out or anything. I did, but I didn't feel comfortable and I was like praying that she didn't have to be fed while I was out, you know? Yeah. So it took a long time to settle down, even though I had, um, a different supplement this time. I actually imported one from the us.

[00:54:57] Emma Pickett: Was that the lactate, the, 

[00:54:59] Philippa: the bag Love, love, love the lactate. Tell us 

[00:55:01] Emma Pickett: how that was different from using the, I'm guessing it was the Modelo one you were using. Yeah, it was in the uk. 

[00:55:06] Philippa: How did they feel differently? So, the Modela is a plastic bottle that hangs upside down. The lactate is a bag and you put, um, a tube.

Into the bag. And then there's like a locking mechanism with a ring that seals the bag shut with the milk in. Um, and it sits upright and you can sit it in your bra or you can hang it around your neck, but it sits upright and you can control the flow much easier because the lower you have it, the slower it goes.

And the higher you have it, the higher the faster it goes. And then there's like a, a sort of a chunky tube that goes into the bag and then there's a really thin tube that goes into the baby's mouth. And it, it's brilliant. I, I love it. So you imported that 

[00:55:50] Emma Pickett: from America? 

[00:55:51] Philippa: Yes, I learned about it on the low supply group.

Okay. Because, um, that is mainly American. Um, so I was using that and I did get to the stage that, um, I was okay to go out and I would use the feeding system, um, in sort of public as long as I could tuck it right out the way. And I smelled formula all the time because, you know, it was. It was quite leaky still.

[00:56:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:56:20] Philippa: Time went on and like I did breastfeed her until she was two, I think. I think I stopped about two days before she was two. 

[00:56:28] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

[00:56:29] Philippa: that is 

[00:56:29] Emma Pickett: brilliant. 

[00:56:30] Philippa: That is such, to be so proud. And it was very, very healing because actually even when she was on a bottle, she would still ask for boobs. She would still come to me for comfort.

She, you know, she's one, she was one of these toddlers that would stand up on your lap with a bum in the air and like, feed like that. And that was so lovely that, you know, I could be her comfort and, and it really made a difference and it, it, it was worth all that to get to that stage. I lost two more babies while, um, you know, in between her being born and being two.

And that's why I stopped breastfeeding her because, you know, I was given the old wife to tell her, well, you know, breastfeeding could be contributing. And I was like, I don't think it is. 'cause at this stage I was actually training to be a counselor. I've done my mother's supporter training, peer support training.

I trained, uh, was starting to train to be a counselor, and I was like, I don't think that it is causing a problem, but just in case. Uh, so anyway, they did loads of tests and discovered that I had antiphospholipid syndrome, which is basically sticky blood. 

[00:57:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:57:40] Philippa: So, um, it was clotting, you know, and cutting off the supply to the baby and the placenta.

[00:57:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. Oh, I'm so sorry. That is a, a really rough thing to hear. I'm, I can only imagine. Yeah, 

[00:57:52] Philippa: and it was, it was really tough as I was like, I really just want one more baby because. I want to have a really peaceful breastfeeding experience this time. And I, I love babies. I've always wanted to be a mom. You know, it's just, the clue is you're a mom of four, so someone I know, someone was like babies.

[00:58:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so joy came along after those joy came along after a little bit. So I 

[00:58:14] Philippa: had a, I had a, a, a fifth, uh, yeah, fifth loss. Then I had joy and I decided that I was never going to be induced ever again, ever. So I said to them, if you have to intervene, it has to be a cesarean so they actually can be a cesarean.

Um, I told them all about the fact that I had, um, breastfeeding problems. I said to them, I will be bringing colostrum. And they were fine with that. Um, and I also got in touch with Heart's Milk Bank, and I got some donor milk for Joy. Yay. Um, and I took it to the hospital and it was amazing. And like the first 24 hours.

It was just my colos, my colostrum, uh, and my milk. Um, and she fed really well. She was always a really good feeder and she again, had a tongue tie, which got cut quite quickly after birth. 'cause I had been in touch with a, a different I-B-C-L-C this time, but Okay. You know, so I got, after carries, I got all my children's tongue tie cut within the sort of like two days of coming home because I just didn't want any interference from a tongue tie.

[00:59:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You know what you're doing with 

[00:59:23] Philippa: joy? Yeah. With joy. You see, I'd been put on Metformin because of my PCOS. Okay. So before I was pregnant, I'd been put on the Beta L because I had permanently high blood pressure. So I knew I'd got those two things to deal with and I just sort of said, right, I've got to accept I'm not gonna grow any more tissue.

I've got to accept that this is what I get this time. Um, and so actually this time around it was so much more peaceful. Okay. It was so much. Less 

[00:59:52] Emma Pickett: of a, I'm not enough. So you're in that place of acceptance that feels, yeah. Feels very different. It was lovely. It was really nice. And how long did you breastfeed Joy for?

Uh, so she was two and a half. Okay. So really quite recently. So you were, so you overlapped then you were doing some tandem feeding? 

[01:00:10] Philippa: I was pregnant with faith and my nipples were so sore every time she touched them. I was like, get off. So I had to stop, you know. But with joy, I used the feeding system every single feed.

I used it right up until, I think she was like six months and then we switched to bottles because it, it just became easier. 

[01:00:31] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:33] Philippa: Um, because they've all had allergies, all of them. Oh, okay. So Carrie was diagnosed 18 months and you know, when they finally listened to the fact that every time I gave her cow's milk, she was ill.

And, uh, you know, she got so many colds that they just said, right, well, I lay off the dairy and this, and then we have to lay off the soiler. And Kathy was dairy and Sawer allergy, and I had to wait seven months for her to be diagnosed. So at this point, when Joy was little, I just turned around to the doctor and I said, look, after I've got what I can from the Milk Bank, please will you give me some allergy formula?

Because we both know that this is what's gonna happen. And it was just like, yeah, obviously, you know, it's in your history. We'll, we'll sort that out. So, um, we had that sort of proviso ready to go, but I ha I was very, very fortunate in that I got a donor milk up until she was about five months old. Oh, that's good to hear.

[01:01:27] Emma Pickett: So, so Heart's, milk Bank. Yeah. For anyone who's listening. So I'm a trustee of the Heart's Milk Bank. And, and if anyone's listening, heart's, milk Bank do have some community provision. Not, not for everybody, and it depends on what the situation is, but they, they will try and help people if, if needed. So, I'm so glad that you, you benefited from that.

I'm aware the clock is ticking and it's considered Sorry. No, no. Don't apologize. My goodness. You've, yeah. How dare you have four children who've all breastfed. Um, but, um, it's considered rude to keep podcast listeners going for more than about an hour and a half. So let me ask you about Faith's breastfeeding.

Jenny, tell me what happened with Faith's breastfeeding. Were you also in that place of acceptance with her as well? 

[01:02:03] Philippa: Yes, very much so. If anything, you know, I said I don't know that I'll bother taking supplements this time. 'cause although I did with Joy, I didn't take as many and I didn't force myself onto the pump with joy all the time like I did with the others.

So with Faith, I was just like, yeah, I know I'm gonna have to have a pump. I know I'm gonna have to do all this sort of stuff, but it's, it's okay. And actually for the first, so she was an elective cesarean, um, as well as joy. So it was much calmer. I had no, none of the sort of stress around birth. And then she.

She was, um, really good at feeding for the first 24 hours. Um, they did her blood sugars and they were stable. And then like when she'd been fed, they said, do you want us to top her up because she's had quite a good feed off you? And I was like, yeah, just top her up to be sure. And then, so they topped her up with a carp with my colostrum.

Um, and then I had, she had one complete feed off me and we both fell asleep after this feed because I was gonna go and get 'em to top her up again. Um, and when they came and tested her blood sugar, that it was fine after just my milk. And that was such Oh, brilliant. I was just a wonderful feeling. Um, and then she started not wanting to feed.

She couldn't be bothered. She just, you know, she'd rather sleep. And, um, I kept saying to him, you know, she's not feeding, she's not, not really interested and I couldn't get her to latch on and stuff, so. I had to start using the pump and then I started using the lactate in hospital and feeding her my colostrum through the lactate.

And that's what eventually got her interested again and got the milk supply going again. And, you know, for the first two weeks of her life, I had the best milk supply I ever, ever, ever had. 

[01:03:50] Emma Pickett: Yay. 

[01:03:51] Philippa: I was sort of, she was, she was feeding off me and it would be content for sort of like an hour or, or something and then have to have another supplement.

But, and if she didn't feed off me, 'cause she slept quite a lot in the early days, which was unusual. My babies have never slept during the day, um, for more than about half an hour in the pram. But she would go sort of two hours and I'd have to wake her and feed her, um, which was really, really weird. So I had lots of time to pump.

And I remember the first time I got 60 mil, which is two ounces in, in the pump off my left boob. And I was like. Like, look, you know, saying to my 10-year-old, look at this, how much is it? And she's like, it's nearly two ounces. And I was like, I can't believe I'm so excited. It was lovely. Um, and then unfortunately I had an infection in my cesarean scar and it was very serious and nearly got me hospitalized and I lost my milk supply.

[01:04:47] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm so sorry. Philippa. And I was heartbroken. That's so unfair after everything you've been through, 

[01:04:54] Philippa: so Yeah, it was, it was horrid. So I, I kept feeding her with the lactate because she just wouldn't take a bottle. And I was like, do you know what, that's fine. You don't wanna take a bottle? I don't want you to have a bottle.

And every single feed was on, on the lactate. Um, and that was for a good five months. After I have milk from hearts again. And then they said they couldn't give me anymore because they had to, you know, help other people, which is fine. I got a, a donor with him, um, from off of Facebook off the Facebook community mm-hmm.

Who's another home ed mom. And she was willing to continue to donate. And then I found that, so all of my others have been able to tolerate dairy in my breast milk and faith couldn't. Okay. Because she couldn't tolerate soria in my breast milk and she couldn't tolerate egg in my breast milk. Oh no. So this lovely lady that had expressed me all this milk and I thought, I'm sorry, I can't use it.

Um, and so then of course I had to do the whole, I need allergy formula and we've now ended up on Neo KLCP. And because I have to make it up in a bottle. I'm not then pouring it into the feeding system. So we stopped with the feeding system about six months when she got onto the knee cake. 

[01:06:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[01:06:09] Philippa: But the weird thing was she was drinking more than any of my other children.

Like she would drink and drink and drink, but she was not putting on weight very fast. And then, and I've, you know, I've had the health issues out monthly for, for ages 'cause she's sort of hovered just below the 25th and now she's sort of in between the 25th and the 50th centile and they're happy with her now.

But she, you know, she would, um, you know, she drinks so much and I was like, how are you not really, really heavy. 

[01:06:38] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. But 

[01:06:38] Philippa: it was 'cause of her allergy. 'cause the milk wasn't suiting her, you know, so now she's got the knee. Okay. She's sort of gaining weight loads and Okay. But she was, I mean when, in the beginning when I was feeding her and my milk supply was great, she was sort of choking on my, um, let down.

And I kind of thought to myself, you know, I don't have that much milk to have a fast let down. But that was when I really sort of. Worked out. 'cause in theory I knew it, but worked out in my head and, and my heart that, uh, low supply and milk down reflex aren't really connected. You can have a, a fast let down, but you can still have a low supply.

Okay. So, you know, that was a really real eyeopener for me. 'cause I think if I had had a full supply, would've been. Overly in the sense that my milk used to flow really fast. 

[01:07:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:07:25] Philippa: So, yeah, it was, it was, it's been a real, real, 

[01:07:28] Emma Pickett: real rollercoaster. That is the word I was about to use. I was just gonna ask you, do you remember your last feed with Faith when that last breastfeed was She's still feeding.

Feeding. Oh, she's still still feeding now. Sorry, I thought you were onto the, onto the, the knee. Okay. So, so you're using, so we're 

[01:07:41] Philippa: on the, okay. And I give her the cake, but she's feeding from me directly for comfort. 

[01:07:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[01:07:46] Philippa: Brilliant. Um, and, and you know, if she fancies like a drink and she doesn't want juice and I've just got enough there, um, I'm actually trying to build up a, a little stash of milk so I can give her a bottle of breast milk on my birthday.

But it's actually taking months to do so I don't actually think I'll be able to get there, but I've got about two ounces of my milk in the freezer. And I'm just starting the milk ladder. Um, because I am, I'm hungry basically, and I want, I want real food. I can imagine. 

[01:08:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh, you must be an amazing peer supporter, Philippa.

'cause you've had so many experiences and you, and you definitely are the person who I know who's used a supplementary nursing system the most. You must have racked up the most hours of anyone I've ever supported or, or met. So you must be fantastic at supporting people with all different situations. So you were a breastfeeding counselor with the A BM and answer questions on the national breastfeeding helpline.

Yeah. And now you're a volunteer with Blind Parents uk. Just as we finish our conversation, I'd love to ask you two different questions. One is, if someone's listening to this and they think that they may be somebody who has insufficient glandular tissue, that some of the descriptions of breast shape have kind of set off alarm bells in their head, what, what would you want that person to know?

If they, if they want to breastfeed? 

[01:09:00] Philippa: Um, I think I'd want them to know that it's not your fault. I don't know. It feels like it's your fault at the moment, but it isn't your fault. And that you are doing your best. Even though at the time I absolutely hated people to tell me that I was doing really well and doing my best 'cause I felt I wasn't.

You are doing your best. And I, and you know, I catch myself saying it to other people and they're like, but you know, if you didn't believe it yourself, why would you say it to us? But it is true. You know, you're doing your best, you're trying your best if you have to supplement, it's one doctor explained it to me as you are providing quality and the formula is providing quantity.

Um, that's a good word of, that's really important. Yeah, that's a really good word that way because I was, I was always saying to him, but it's not me that's making her grow, it's the formula. And he was like, no, but you are making her brain grow. You know, you are, you are teaching her that you are meeting her needs.

You are, you know, creating antibodies. I mean, faith didn't have any kind of infection till she was, well, last month actually, so about nine months old. Um, so that told me that my milk was doing a good job because we had hand, foot and mouth in the house. We had a sickness spark and all sorts, and she didn't get it.

So it's worth 

[01:10:11] Emma Pickett: it. Yeah. I love, I love that those phrases, those are, that's a useful doctor. I think that's, those, some of that stuff is brilliant. Yeah. You're growing her, your, her brain. Yeah. You're giving all that protection. You are quality even if you can't necessarily be quantity those. That's a fantastic way of describing it.

And then tell us a little bit about Blind Parents uk. How does that support work? So 

[01:10:31] Philippa: we're online basically. Um, and so we have a Facebook group. We have several different WhatsApp groups. Um, we have a general, um, Facebook group for parents, grandparents, uh, you know, uh, but the parents or grandparents have to be blind, um, or low vision, like visually impaired.

Um, we can't sort of have sighted parents, blind children 'cause that's actually not what our support is about. 

[01:10:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:10:57] Philippa: And we can't have relatives of. Uh, parents who are going to have a child, you know, it's, it's, it's got to be, um, a blind parent or grandparent or, you know, something like that themselves. Okay.

Um, so we've got a general group and we've got the mom's only one, and then we've got, um, a WhatsApp group for bumps and babies and a WhatsApp group for sort of, um, older children, moms of older children. Okay. Um, we also have zooms, uh, like, um, I do antenatal stuff. I do sling support as I'm a sling consultant.

Um, and we do, if anyone wants breastfeeding training, you know, breastfeeding support, that's me and antenatal groups going through sort of the first days of, of life and stuff, and we do weaning. Um, um, yeah, we do, we do a lot about the sounds. We do a lot of stuff. Whatcha 

[01:11:53] Emma Pickett: not, whatcha not doing the world of technology.

I'd love to ask you a bit about that. The things must have changed so much in your, in your lifetime in terms of what's available and what technology's available. I guess in the early days it was phone calls and, and you know, phone calls, letters and meetups. But now you've got so many things that are, are out and about.

I mean, are you excited about ai? Let's, um, 

[01:12:15] Philippa: so I have got a pair of AI glasses and I literally said to it the other day, Hey, meta, how long is left on the washing machine? And it said, it has an hour. And I was like, wow. So actually, yeah, it's, it's quite good. And it describes photos, so I can put a photo into my phone, um, and put it through an app, um, called Be My Eyes and it will describe the photo and, and tell me what's in it and stuff.

And I, I love that. Um, I don't about the fact it's always listening to you, but, um, you know, you can't have everything really. 

[01:12:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think the privacy is something that's gone a bit by the wayside, hasn't it? With modern technology. Yes. 

[01:12:53] Philippa: Yeah. But for me it's a lifeline. Um, you know, it's, it really is. I mean, even something as simple as like reading the side of the box formula or anything, you know, it's, I need technology to do that.

Can't be without my phone. 

[01:13:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:13:08] Philippa: It's sad to say, 'cause I don't, you know, I don't like, you know, we always want our children not to be on screens, but all they ever see with me is a screen in my hand because I'm doing various things. But it is how it is. 

[01:13:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you certainly model lots of other things for them.

Even if you are using your phone, um, you're using your phone in a very, very sensible, valid way that I think everyone can appreciate. It's not like you're looking at, um, you know, dodgy articles and reading nonsense. You Yeah. We, 

[01:13:35] Philippa: we won't talk about the hour a day I spend on TikTok. 

[01:13:39] Emma Pickett: Hey, you're researching how to contact parents.

You're researching. Yeah, yeah, sure. Parenting culture and information. I think that's all part of your job. Um, thank you so much for your time today, Philippa. I'm incredibly grateful for your time. We haven't even talked about homeschooling or anything else. 'cause there's, there's so much else to talk about, but I'm just incredibly grateful and I think anyone who's listening can hear that determination that runs through all your feeding journeys and, and despite that horrible devastation and being really let down in lots of different ways, you were so good at advocating for yourself and reflecting and making decisions and knowing what you needed next.

And that is, that is a model for anybody. So you're amazing. I wouldn't 

[01:14:18] Philippa: have been able to do it without my, my parents, my, my mum especially was, you know, she's very progress feeding and she's, you know, very much, you know, you, you, if you, um, want to breastfeed then you know, that is the best for them. And even if it's a little bit, you know, just a little bit.

And she's always been really supportive about me feeding, so is my dad. And it's just, you know, my, my wider family are kind of more, well, you know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work or, you know, after a year it's fine, you know, you don't need to to feed anymore, but. My parents have been a real support through all of this, 

[01:14:54] Emma Pickett: so that's lovely.

That's great to hear. Brilliant. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you thought it was, would be important to include? Anything else you want to add? 

[01:15:03] Philippa: Uh, I think I would like to add that I did try actually having domperidone, which did increase my supply slightly. Um, but this time they won't, they won't entertain giving it to me because of the whole hype about it.

You know, I don't know why it increased my supply 'cause I don't have any prolactin issues that I know of. But, so I mean, I've literally tried everything. Um, and there is nothing it can be done, but I think if you've got, if you've got a good gp, if you've got a good support system in that way, and someone that's not brushing it off and saying, well, you know, it's fine.

You've given her the best start. You have a formula now. Um, it makes all the difference. It, it's, it's, there's the things I struggle with other people that. I never liked breastfeeding. I, you know, I've got an oversupply and I, I hated it. You know, and, and I do see that from another point of view if that's a real struggle in itself and oversupply.

Um, and I get it, but I'm just like, how can you hate it? I would, I would kill to have half your supply. Yeah. You know, so that's a real struggle. That's 

[01:16:09] Emma Pickett: hard to hear. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you so much for your time today, Philippe. No worries. I'm incredibly grateful. I really appreciate it.

And um, so we'll put your article in the show notes. We'll put Blind parents UK in the show notes. Um, and um, yeah, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. No worries. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.