Emily's story - 'bainne', allergies and an unplanned separation

This week I’m talking to the lovely Emily from Glasgow about breastfeeding her two-year-old son Finn alongside multiple IgE food allergies and an unplanned separation. Emily and Finn call breastfeeding “bainne” (Gaelic for milk) to avoid confusion because Finn is allergic to cow’s milk. We discuss Finn’s allergy protocols, EpiPen use, contact reactions, and attempts at the milk ladder that caused hives, plus ongoing plans around night weaning. Emily shares a difficult birth, severe early breastfeeding pain linked to a posterior tongue tie that improved after division, the later development of eczema and escalating symptoms leading to allergy diagnosis, a nursing strike at 12 months, and a five-night hospital separation after Emily’s postoperative infection where advocacy and accurate medication guidance helped preserve breastfeeding.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Drugs in Breastmilk Service - The Breastfeeding Network https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/drugs-in-breastmilk/

Breastfeeding Medicines Advice service – NHS SPS https://www.sps.nhs.uk/home/about-sps/get-in-touch/medicines-advice-contact-details/breastfeeding-medicines-advice-service/ 

Breastfeeding and Food Allergies – La Leche League GB

Allergy in Childhood | Allergy UK | National Charity

https://www.bsaci.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Choosing-Wisely-on-IgE-request-in-eczema.pdf

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm talking to Emily from Glasgow, who is the mother of Finn, and as the scene from the episode title, we're gonna be talking about some allergies.

And an unplanned separation. And a few other bits and bobs along the way. And you may have noticed that interesting word in the title of the episode, bainne. So before we go any further, Emily, can you tell us what bainne is? 

[00:01:09] Emily: So bainne is the Gaelic word for milk. It came about 'cause my son has a milk allergy and I've been describing breastfeeding to him when he was very little as having milk.

And then it suddenly dawned on me, um, he can't have milk. And as he gets older, we, we kinda thought we might be breastfeeding when he could still talk. And if he was in asking for milk and someone gave him a natural glass of milk when actually he meant baa breastfeeding. So that was our little, um, way of trying to call it milk, but not call it milk.

[00:01:39] Emma Pickett: That's very clever. That's, most people fall into the word for breastfeeding without having put anything like that level of effort into it. So I'm, I'm very impressed. So are you a Gaelic speaking family?

[00:01:49] Emily: No, we're not. Um, my Gran's family we're from Isla. So it's, I've been around it since I was little. I spent a lot of time in Isla growing up, but we don't speak it.

Um, but during my maternity leave with Finley, we would go to the Gaelic book bug session in our library. So book bug, I think in Scotland is the equivalent. Is it rhyme and sing or something In England, the, the free library sessions. And we learned a little bit of Gaelic there and it just seemed at the time, like a good, a good way to pick a word.

[00:02:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So you have Finley who's two and he's still breastfeeding at the moment, although I shouldn't use the word still breastfeeding. 'cause that's what people do when they don't understand the value of, of continuing breastfeeding build infancy. So let's start at the end. What's a typical 24 hours for his breastfeeding pattern at the moment?

[00:02:33] Emily: So at the moment, he goes to nursery two days a week and he's with grandparents one day a week. And the other days he's with me on those days, he doesn't feed a lot during the day. Um, he can, if he, if he wants, you know, it's something that we do. And so there's no, no like routine during the day. Um, and equally if there's a day that we are together and we are out doing lots of fun things, he can go the whole day, even when he is with me and not be particularly bothered.

We seem to have just naturally no longer feeding outside the house in terms of like at new locations in the park or um, at classes or shops or whatever. Um, but he still feed during the day if we're out and we're a familiar environment, so like grandparents' houses, but really the most time he feeds is overnight.

He feeds a lot overnight. Okay. Um, and then usually when I pick him up from nursery or when we're reunited, although that recently has started to go down a little bit, the toys were quite exciting to come home and show mom the latest toys playing with. So it comes and goes ups and downs, uh, as it has been throughout the whole journey.

[00:03:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. And for anyone who's listening to you and thinking, gosh, feeding overnight at two. Yep. That's my life as well. There are some people thinking, yep, that sounds like my life. And other people thinking, oh, I'm feeding my 1-year-old. Really? I thought it too. That wouldn't be what was going on anymore. What was last night like, for example?

[00:03:50] Emily: Well, last night was a bad one, but, um, he's had an allergy flare up, which we'll probably discuss more as the episode goes on. And it's probably been a conscious decision on our part to still breastfeed overnight. I met you, Emma when I joined one of your winning groups, and as we can tell, I have not weaned yet.

Mm-hmm. But I do have, um, now all the skills to do it when I want to, but we are still thinking about night weaning, but it's just for us a hard decision because when he has an allergy flare up and he's so unsettled overnight, panya is a really helpful thing to get him back to sleep quickly. And for him to be comfortable.

I can't almost imagine him having an allergy flare up overnight without that there as a tool. Um, because he, he cries and he itches and it's just a way to, to fix it. So it is a conscious decision, um, on our part to, to still have that available at night.

[00:04:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I'm guessing you're co-sleeping.

[00:04:40] Emily: Yeah, he's in our bed, um, only from 12 months.

We didn't do it when he was little, but from 12 months on, he's been in our bed. Okay. So you started in a cot and then increasingly it just felt more sensible just to keep him in your bed.

[00:04:52] Emma Pickett: And you mentioned that he's had allergy flareup, which is, which must be really scary and rough. Um, and as you say, breast milk is a pain relief.

It contains sedatives, it helps him get back to sleep. And taking that tool outta your arsenal is something you have to think about so carefully when there are other health considerations going on.

So we'll talk more about that in a minute. And you're working while feeding through the night. Yeah. Which is pretty impressive.

Not everyone can imagine doing that. But do you feel like you are at breaking point or do you feel that your co-sleeping makes it manageable? Where kind of are you on a spectrum of Oh my God, I can't do this to, Hey, this is easy.

[00:05:31] Emily: Yeah. The bed sharing makes it totally, um, possible and that's why we started at 12 months I was going back to work and it just helps us get more sleep.

There's, there's some nights when he sleeps better of course. And actually he now sleeps better in our bed. Even when he, when he is settled and calm and doesn't have an allergy, he can do quite a good few hours. Um, which is an improvement to compare to what it was in the summer after we'd had some other health things, um, going on with myself actually.

So at the moment it is manageable. Um, but if he didn't have the allergies, we probably would think about night meaning just to see if we could get longer stretches. 'cause he is, um, he's capable of it. He sometimes does it. But it's just when he has an allergy that that makes us kind of come back and think, oh, maybe not.

[00:06:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. What, what caused the flare up this time? Do you know?

[00:06:18] Emily: So it is, sometimes, it's hard to tell. Um, he has been obviously away from us this week. He's away, um, during the kinda middle of the week for his childcare stuff. So he was with my, my parents, his grandparents, and he got a new toy from the charity shop and he was playing with it in the, the car seat.

And he went in the car seat, finally came outta the car seat, and he was quite swollen on his face with a reaction. So my mom and mom obviously did the allergy protocol that we have, and then he went to nursery the next day and he had a similar reaction. So nothing he'd definitely eaten or nothing that we knew for certain.

It's probably a contact reaction to something. Which then escalates into him having poor eczema and being uncomfortable. And usually his gut can be affected at the same time as well. So it all has a bit of a knock on effect. Okay. So potentially there would trace amounts of food on that toy that was in the charity shop.

That's my guess. Yeah. And the same with nursery. We have, it is likely to have trace amounts of food in other children and, you know, and, um, he's got a decimate allergy as well. Those food allergies are the ones obviously we're most concerned about and had the toys at nursery and carpets at nursery.

There's all sorts of things that sometimes you can't pinpoint. Other times we have pinpointed and it's very clear, but sometimes it just, um, a reaction happens.

[00:07:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. So in a minute we'll go back in time and talk about the beginning and, and the first diagnosis. But I'm just thinking about, so the reaction you're describing where he gets, you know, inflammation and, and puffs up, and I mean, that's obviously there are different kinds of allergies and would we call that an Iggy?

Am I saying that right? IgE allergy. Um, and what does that mean for anybody who's not familiar with that term?

[00:07:57] Emily: Yeah, so he is IgE, um, allergic to milk. Um, cashews, pistachios, que soya. And that means it's an immediate reaction. So it is, the way I describe it to some my friends and family who hadn't been aware of it before was an immediate reaction is one that, uh, is something like the peanut allergy that people are quite familiar with and aware of that might require the needs of an EpiPen.

Whereas you can have children having, for example, delayed cow milk protein allergy, which is a non IgE, uh, response, which is delayed and their symptoms might come on hours after being exposed to the allergen.

[00:08:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And so when we have the immediate reaction, as you say, peanuts are often what comes to people's mind and anaphylaxis and EpiPens, but his breathing isn't impacted.

You're not dealing with anaphylaxis at this point. And there's that, is there a risk it might develop into that? I don't wanna get you to focus on something horrible, but what's, what's the positive?

[00:08:53] Emily: No, there is a risk and he, he does have EpiPens, unfortunately. He, so at the moment we know that he's daily anaphylactic risk 'cause he is IgE, but he's never had, um, dairy exposed directly to him.

He's had dairy through breast milk, so we don't actually know the extent of an allergic reaction he would have if you picked up another cup of child's milk at the nursery and had a, had a swig of it. Um, so yeah, he's anaphylactic risk, but for his not allergies, he is anaphylactic and has an EpiPen after a 9, 9, 9 little ambulance, um, trip where he had the starts of breathing difficulties.

Um, and they then, yeah, then issued the EpiPen after that episode. 

[00:09:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. I mean, I think one of anyone hearing this who doesn't live with allergies can only imagine how scary it must be to send your child to childcare. And, and obviously you've got, you know, grandparents looking after him the rest of the time, but, but the world is out there full of things that are going to hurt him and it must be so scary to be a parent and I dunno how you manage to stay calm and, and cope with your mental health, I guess because you've got all the protocols in place and the nursery presumably have all their systems in place too.

[00:10:00] Emily: It is hard. Um, actually this week I got the phone call from nursery on the Wednesday and he started a new nursery. So the new nursery, um, obviously you've got to relearn. They've got to learn everything. Learn all about him, learn about the allergies. So yeah, we had the phone call with the escalation of, um, the protocol that we have, and it seemed a little bit more serious than the previous phone calls I've had.

And I'll admit I had a little cry at work. My colleagues were all very nice to me. Um, but he was fine in the end, and it's okay, but I think I just have to sometimes just either get on with it, but we also have to sometimes try and step back and remember that it's, uh, it is a lot of hard work. Um, and we're very grateful for everyone that helps make it possible, like the grandparents and the, the care teams that we have in place.

[00:10:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and when he starts to get a, a reaction to, you know, like he did with, for the, from the toy or in the car seat, the first step of the protocol is that kind of puritan type stuff. Yep. And, and antihistamine things. 

[00:10:56] Emily: Yep. Antihistamine. So, um. Antihistamines and then you wait 10 minutes and if it's getting worse, um, you can give or not improving, give another, and then there's differentiation in terms of mild allergy reaction to the severe with the EpiPen being required for breathing difficulties or, um, even things like, uh, coughing and affecting his kind of his throat, so his tongue and things like that.

And then, you know, being sleepy or collapsing, um, is the kind of, the kind of escalation into the EpiPen. So we've never had to use his EpiPen, which we're hope continues. Of course. Yeah. 

[00:11:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And um, as you say, after the after effect is some restless nights and his body kind of recovering from that. So it's not like, you know, half an hour later we're all good and end of story.

It's something that, that, that lingers. What do you do for work, Emily? 

[00:11:44] Emily: Hey, I'm an optometrist who works in the hospitals. I work in healthcare. 

[00:11:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. So hopefully that means you're surrounded by people that kind of kinda get it. 

So I guess anyone listening to this who doesn't live with allergy, we are part of the community that keep Finn safe.

So if we go to school and our school tells us we are a nut free school, we flip and have a responsibility to take that seriously. And I, I keep thinking actually about allergy families. When I see pistachio becoming really trendy, you know, all these pistachio drinks and Dubai chocolate and thing, I think, oh my goodness, if you're anaphylactic to pistachio, you know, five years ago you probably hardly ever bumped into a pistachio and now it's everywhere.

And we've just got to, we've got to remember that, you know, we've all got a responsibility to, to keep safe and you know, I guess can we wash our toys before we take 'em to charity shops? That feels like something that we should do. And maybe charity shops could wash them too. I guess it's, some of people just don't think of it if they don't live with allergy.

[00:12:36] Emily: And generally as well it is, it's easy as an allergy parent to become so complacent as well as in like, you know, he does so well and we, we try and live such a normal life. There's been times obviously where there's things we don't do, but picking a toy up in a charity shop and just giving it to him straight away, it feels like a normal thing to do.

So, you know, there's nothing wrong with doing that as well. It's about trying not to let it impact on our daily activities. 

[00:12:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And so because he's got an IgE allergy to milk, you're not expecting to do a milk ladder anytime soon. Is that, I mean, are we thinking that he would grow outta this allergy and that's your future?

Or are you, you giving him trace exposures, presumably that isn't the immediate ga aim, the advice it seems to be, or lots of research coming out nowadays with advice changing, which is really exciting. 

[00:13:19] Emily: Our NHS Allergy Trust had done some blood tests and suggested that he could start on the milk ladder.

We actually, we feel very lucky that we can seek additional support outside of the NHS to help us, guide us through that. 'cause it's really difficult to figure out, um, what to do when you've only got one appointment and then you've got to then just go off and do it. So we've had some additional support on the side, which has been really useful, and yet we were to introduce him with a tiny, tiny amount of milk.

And the milk ladder is basically, um, exposing 'em to different levels of the cow's milk protein with it processed in different ways. So starting off with baked milk and then the end of the milk ladder would be a cup of milk. So we were to get a baked milk product. So we made it ourselves in the house, the skinned milk powder, and then he was to be given a crumb and I mean a crumb like the less than you can lessen your pinky tiny amount to see if he could tolerate it.

And he didn't tolerate it. He ha he had some hives after that, which makes me feel like he is quite allergic still to it. So we're on a pause at the moment with, um, discussions around what we might do with that in the future. He's still two and there's still a chance that he will grow of it. It's more likely he'll grow out of his milk allergy and less likely he'll grow of his nut allergy.

But there is lots of exciting research around doing sort of exposure and it's called oral immunotherapy and things like that, which doesn't seem to be available on NHS in a lot of places, but perhaps might become more common. So we're, we're looking and learning about it at the moment, but not acting on it just now.

[00:14:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Thanks very much for all that detail. Emily. Let's, um, talk about the beginning of his breastfeeding journey. And how things started. So before you even had Finn, what was your relationship like with breastfeeding in terms of family members and, and friends and what you knew about breastfeeding?

[00:15:01] Emily: So I and my sister were formula fed and growing up I wasn't around babies and children, so therefore I wasn't around breastfeeding. I, I, I want to say almost didn't even know it existed. I mean, children's toys, you give a baby a bottle. That's just the way, the way it was. And I think growing up, if someone had asked me, I, I'd have been, you do what's done to you.

And I'd have assumed I'd have been bottle feeding my baby. More recently, I've learned that my grand did breastfeed her two sons, she's 93. And it's quite interesting hearing how that wasn't common in her day and the stories from the, the nurses and things. But when it came to me becoming pregnant, obviously it suddenly comes to front, how are you going to feed your baby?

And I think there was a sort of natural instinct within me. I was like, I want to breast. And as I learned more about it, it became something I became even more certain that I wanted to do. Health benefits, allergy benefits as well. I'm an atopic person. I've got asthma, he fever, I've got contact skin allergies, and it seemed like a really good option in terms of helping my child in the future.

I wanted it for the connection, I wanted it for environmental impact. I wanted it for, um, the lifestyle that we live in, Glasgow, where we can go camping and hill walking, and we thought we would take our baby along and do all those things and not have to take formula with us. Sounded quite appealing. Um, so I was quite certain I wanted to do it and, uh, I'd had, as it had said, I'd had no previous experience of it, so I decided I wanted to do quite a bit of reading around it and education, the usual antenatal classes, NHS antenatal class on it.

Um. But then I did additional ones like the Leche League, um, which I found really helpful in preparing me and I'm really glad I did it. And I start, I also then prepared by a collecting colostrum from 37 weeks pregnant as well. So I was, I, I became from someone who assumed I would not breastfeed to someone who was, I really want to breastfeeding.

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You, you joined the club, didn't you? You were,

[00:16:58] Emily: yeah. 

[00:16:58] Emma Pickett: You were badge wearing, I guess your health professional brain went into and went into mode and, and you just absorbed all the information and, and what about your, your partner's history? Were they kind of on board with breastfeeding too?

[00:17:10] Emily: They were happy with it.

They, they and their two other siblings had been breastfed as a children, so he, I think had, I mean, I think he'd always known he was breastfed, so slightly more awareness of it in that sense. Although he also hadn't been around children. We joke that when we picked up our son for the first time, neither of us had really held a baby before we were held our son.

[00:17:30] Emma Pickett: You know, that is not uncommon. Not uncommon at all for, for modern people in the uk. Literally that's the first time they've ever been within a meter of a baby, apart from the time they brushed up to work past one on a bus stop or something. Um, yeah, not uncommon. So now that you are breastfeeding 2-year-old Finn, how are your family managing with that?

Have you had any interesting conversations? How's that going? 

[00:17:50] Emily: Um, I think also even, even though I was so certain I was gonna start breastfeeding, I think because of that history with ourselves and just not being around it, I also was assuming things like my mom would say, oh, you don't breastfeed a baby when it's got teeth.

And I go, oh yeah, no, you don't. I won't breastfeed a baby when it's got teeth. And here we are, he is two, and he can, you've got teeth and he can talk and walk and run. Um, so there has been, uh, a learning journey for a lot of people that I'm close to, but they generally realize that I'm determined and stubborn and I'm not changing it, and it's the way it is.

Of course, they have said things like, you know, I can see you're tired and you're breastfeeding overnight. Perhaps that should change. I get that. So from an external point of view, that that looks obvious. And I think historically, I think I'd have thought the same too, but on the other side, so although there's been some challenges of coming to that agreement together, my mom has been fantastic at helping make it happen.

Um, I suppose for her now as well, seeing it happen for us, there might be a little bit of a, a guilt that it didn't work out for her and she didn't breastfeed her children. But it's really nice that she, I think, has been instrumental in helping us breastfeed, uh, Finn. So in the hospital, in her early days, we were, had quite a difficult time and her being there I think allowed us to continue breastfeeding, not switch to formula.

And then when we had, um, I had an illness in the summer and we ended up being separated, I was separated from Finn. Um, she was there in the hospital when I was having emergency surgery to advocate for me and say that breastfeeding was really important for me, even. You know, in her words, even though he is 18 months old.

Um, and it's something that we'd want to prioritize, which is an, a remarkable turnaround and, um, is wonderful. 

[00:19:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's really lovely to hear. Yeah, those super grannies who lived in a generation where breastfeeding wasn't supported and their own journeys were sabotaged by systems can turn around to be the most amazing advocates once they've done that processing themselves.

And I'm guessing, I'm not saying this is the case for your mum, but actually I'm, I'm imagining Finn's Allergy puts a lots of, puts lots of conversations to bed because he isn't gonna be having a cup of cows milk anytime soon. And, and we know that continuing to breastfeed does reduce allergic response potentially.

Um, and, and even though obviously he's gone on to develop allergies, it could have been even more severe. I mean, I'm trying to imagine what life might have been like if you'd started formula feeding him a hundred percent and how unwell he may have become at the beginning of his life. So you said you had a difficult start at the beginning.

Tell me about your early breastfeeding. How did birth go? What was the first week like?

[00:20:23] Emily: So we went over June. Um, our hospital policy was to be, I think it was 40 plus four was allowed, I, I say allowed. Um, uh, but my community midwives, uh, agreed I could go 40 plus 10. Uh, we started the induction process. I went into hospital, had a sweep, went home, uh, then went back for the balloon, uh, for, as part of the induction process.

Went home, went back in, uh, went to the labor ward, had waters broken, then hormone drip, then epidural, then, um, raised temperature with what they were describing as sepsis into, uh, delayed pushing, delayed labor into, uh, theater emergency with four steps and c-section kit at the ready to go with then, uh, blood loss following that.

So I wasn't particularly well following the birth, given the circumstances around that. And, um, I was also. Knackered 'cause I'd gone 40 plus 10 and gave birth at 42 weeks. So, um, almost four days of kind of intervention. Yeah. Um, and we'd been on slow labor before that for, you know, weeks of kind of thinking it's happening, it's not happening.

But my midwife knew that I wanted to breastfeed. Um, and we'd gone into the hospital with grand plans of a, a water birth and all that sort of stuff that never materialized clearly. But she was great at a, if possible, still getting me the golden air, which we did. Um, and knowing that breastfeeding, I wanted to initiate it.

So we've got this sort of hilarious photo of us in theater with me prepped for C-section. So all the kit in front of you and Finley right up on my face 'cause there's no room for him any, anywhere else. Um, and he sort of is going from my ear and I can get this photo of him sort of trying to latch onto my ear.

And I remember at the time then saying, I think he's trying to breastfeed in my ear. Can someone maybe, I don't know, put him on? Um, my husband wasn't gonna do it. Like I said, he'd never held a baby before. I wasn't gonna just pick him up and try that. Um, so they did. And I know, I mean, that's not obviously your, your aim isn't for positioning like that just to be, but, but it, we've got this other hilarious photo of him sort of squished onto my breast where he might be breastfeeding, he might not, but it all felt like we were doing the right things.

Um, and then we went onto the recovery ward and the postnasal ward, obviously, to try and, uh, initiate breastfeeding further, but ran into some difficulties, um, with a tongue tie. 

[00:22:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. At that point in time, before we talk about the tongue tie, tell me a bit more about the blood loss. Did they give you milliliters?

[00:23:04] Emily: Um, uh, just under liter. 

[00:23:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:23:06] Emily: But there was difficulties with the episiotomy, I think as, as well was the, and the stitches there and things like that.

[00:23:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. And did you have a transfusion? 

[00:23:13] Emily: No, they kept me on the ward. Um, it was dangling it every day. I was there for maybe. Four days on the postnatal with a kind of, maybe today we'll do a transfusion maybe tomorrow.

Um, a lot of back and forth deciding on it, and in the end we didn't. 

[00:23:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you mentioned tongue tie became obvious really early on. What, what did that look like for you and how did that feel? 

[00:23:35] Emily: Well, he went and had his top to toe check and they came back and said he has a tongue tie. Um, they said it was, um, not suitable for treating on the NHS or not.

It wouldn't be referred based on that assessment. And it seemed to indicate it was like a, you know, wait and see. Um, I think with kind of all about weight being the kind of thing, you know, if he's gaining weight, you should be, you should be fine type situation. I struggled with positioning and attachment, partly because, um, I'd never done it before, as we all know.

Um, but also I had a cannula and a drip in my arm because of the 

query sepsis, um, and holding a baby then with a cannula. On my right dominant hand as well was quite hard. So he wouldn't really latch well and stay on well. He would come off quite a lot and it was quite painful. Okay. And it got more painful as time went on as well.

[00:24:32] Emma Pickett: I'm trying to imagine a world where, 'cause quite often the top toe checks, they don't even look for a tongue time. And if they see it, they sort of don't acknowledge they've seen it because it's not necessarily on the checklist. So for someone to come back from a top to toe check and say, we think there's a tongue tie, but that's just a bit of information we're sharing with you and nothing else is gonna happen after that and we're not gonna refer you to specialists or, or look at it any further.

It's, you kind of left dangling a little bit, aren't you? It's a bit of a difficult space to be. And it, it sounds as though from what you're saying, positioning was also tricky. So I guess it's difficult to know what was necessarily tongue function related and what was necessarily positioning related, but, but you were in pain pretty early on by the sounds of it and, and getting damaged.

[00:25:14] Emily: No, I never did get damaged. Um. Which is a kinda another tick on the, you know, it's not tongue tie type thing. But we did eventually, um, get the tongue tie addressed. But in the hospital, I think, yeah, the main focus was positioning attachment and I, 'cause I had all the colostrum that I'd collected from 37 to 42 weeks.

Oh yeah. We had quite a lot of it in the freezer. Tric from then. Yeah. So that got brought in and I collected more, um, while on the ward and things like that. So we kind of tried to get as much input as possible while there, I mean, I had to stay in hospital 'cause I wasn't, uh, well, so to speak. And obviously you want to get home as soon as possible, but I kind of decided to use it to my advantage and every midwife I met said, do you want to have a look at this position?

Can you help me breastfeed here? Um, and we got a lactation uh, specialist to come through as well. And eventually we got to the point where I thought it was okay and we went home. Okay. And you mentioned that you did end up, um, having someone look at the tongue tie. What, what led to that decision? I'd been increasingly in pain, um, while feeding.

Once we were home, he gained weight. Well, I wasn't damaged, but it was toe curling pain. I couldn't leave the house. Um, knowing that I'd have to breastfeed him, I had to be at home in this particular chair with all the cushions and all the Muslims. Um, and I remember going, 'cause I live in Glasgow, fairly central.

I went to one of the local museums and I met some people from our antenatal group and I said, oh, he needs to feed. I'm just gonna head home now. It was a 10 minute walk away. And, oh, just do it here. We'll help you. He was quite young and I said, no, no, it won't be possible. And they went, oh, does it not like breastfeeding in public?

And he said, no, no. It's like, I physically can't, like it's too painful. I would just, I curled up into a ball. It was just horrible. So we'd asked the health visitors, um, health visit that visited, the midwifes that visited, except before we were discharged. Could it be tongue time? Could that be, could it be the cause of it and.

He was gaining weight and I wasn't damaged. So the answer was usually no. And they said they can refer you if you want. You'll go on the waiting list, it'll be four to eight weeks. I said, I will not still be breastfeeding in four to eight weeks if, uh, it continues like this. And I was only still breastfeeding 'cause of the help of my family.

And because my partner was on a slightly longer paternity leave, um, he'd taken annual leave as part of it as well. So we are lucky we're in a position where we could book to have a private consultation. Um, we went and had the private consultation and they did a more in-depth check as far as I understand, and, uh, explained it was a posterior tongue tie and recommended it to be divided.

We couldn't divide it at the first visit, which was really frustrating. 'cause on the top to do check, uh, Finn also had a heart murmur. Um, so we had to then go and wait for our NHS appointment for the heart murmur to be reviewed before the. Tongue tie division could be divided. Okay. So eventually, maybe about five weeks old, we went and had the procedure.

[00:28:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. And did it make a difference? Dramatic difference? Was it really? Obviously. 

[00:28:14] Emily: Yeah. Not straight away. Um, it took a couple days. We actually, we went and had the procedure and packed up our car and went north to the Cairngorms for, uh, just a week away just to, 'cause it'd been, it'd been a lot. So, um, eh, it got better as the days went on.

And I remember then sitting on the shores of lamore, like in one degrees in the freezing cold and doing a breastfeed outside and it not being uncomfortable and I was like, okay, this, it, this, this is, this has worked. 

[00:28:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. Yeah, that's, that's one degree breastfeeding is quite, quite impressive.

On top of everything else,

I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister. Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he'll have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs too. Also, on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

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It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Okay, so Breastfeeding's comfortable, you're not in pain anymore. Weight gain is okay. Well, it got, weight gain was always okay, but things are really easier. At what point does sort of allergy begin to raise its head?

[00:31:13] Emily: So around three to four months he developed eczema. Prior to that, he was, uh, generally just pretty, pretty easy.

Nice little baby. He wasn't colicky. Um, he fed well. After that, things were going good, but three to four months he developed, um, eczema all over his body, his face, and he went to the gp. They explained I'm atopic, it's probably he's just got eczema. And he went home with, uh. A tube of cream, but the size of him to cover a minute, and then from there it just got, his eczema got worse.

We'd be back and forth with the doctors doing different creams. We started introducing steroids and his symptoms just gradually increased into other areas as well. Following that, just to clarify, you, you were a dairy eater at this point. Yep. 

[00:32:02] Emma Pickett: You were drinking and eating a dairy and, and so obviously he's getting some cow's milk protein through your milk, but yet he's not having problems with weight gain.

He's not got mucusy or bloody stools, no other symptoms apart from his skin condition arriving at sort of three to four months. And is the theory that his allergy was beginning at that point? 

[00:32:22] Emily: Yeah. We've since spoken to a specialist and they, they wondered that perhaps his allergy was starting at that point and he had, or it was building and maybe he had delayed CMP cos milk allergy at the start that then progressed into the.

Immediate IgE response. Um, I always as well, even when he was little, remember him reacting not correctly to having breast milk on his skin. That whole like, oh, you know, if a baby's got something wrong with him, put breast milk on it. You know, anything breast milk. And I remember just put and put in his bath one time and he came out, it was quite red.

So I wonder if maybe it was always there, but in a milder form that then just kind of ramped up over time. 

[00:33:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. So obviously the treatment's not working in terms of the creams and, and the steroids. And, and do you get referred to an allergy specialist at this point? What happens next? 

[00:33:15] Emily: No, unfortunately not.

Um, so about four, five months old things were getting worse. He was becoming quite colicky. I, that's what they were describing as he'd be what to us, looked like he was in pain. He looked quite uncomfortable. He'd been gone from being a good sleeper to a bad sleeper. Around the three, four month mark is quite common anyway, so there was lots of, there was lots of ways to justify it.

Um, he started getting really bad nappies, really big, bad ones. Um, that again, it was, oh, he's, he's a breastfed baby. They're a bit looser, you know, nappies. And my mom would joke 'cause she obviously formula fed her children and say, oh, nappies were never like this. This must be a breastfed nappy. This is, you know.

Um, so it was easy to justify. Um, and the health professionals, the gps would often say it's eczema. It's very, very unlikely for a baby to be reacting to milk, uh, daily milk through breast milk. So continue with the creams and, and all that sort of stuff. But as time went on, it got worse and worse, um, uh, to a point where he would be breastfeeding and I would see him actively get read and it'd be an explosive nappy during every feed.

And I'd continued to put off. Removing dairy from my diet because of speaking to health professionals. Um, they said it's unlikely. I remember at one point I was really close to just being like, I'm just gonna ignore their advice. I'm just gonna do it. And we had, um, someone from the child smell team, the dental team for um, talking about weaning, come out to the house, gave us a sippy cup, and they kind of went quite hard on that.

You must not stop dairy. It could cause an allergy. Which put a big fear in me 'cause I knew he would always be at increased risk of food allergies because of my history. And the line of, if you take out dairy, it might develop into DEI allergy. 

[00:35:15] Emma Pickett: Crikey, that's, that's sounded quite alarming. I've never heard someone being told that before.

That's, that is pretty extreme, isn't it? 

[00:35:21] Emily: Yeah. And I then went, okay. Um, and didn't, and they said, you have to speak to the gp, you know, you wouldn't do anything without the GPs guidance. And it got to the point, um, where we still had been referred, there'd been no referral done, just trying more and more creams back and forth.

And on his six month birthday, so to speak, I said, right, that's it. I'm going dairy free. I can just, I mean, even if it's a week and I see a difference and I'll know, like, and it'd gone on three months by this point. And I was frustrated as well that I hadn't, but also everyone had been telling me he's fine.

And even family trying to be helpful, of course, saying, look, he's a happy baby. And he was happy in between the episodes of being unhappy, he's a happy baby. He's fine. Skinny, it's a bit of eczema. Eczema, it's not too bad. I look at photos now. I can't believe we ever thought it wasn't that bad. It was really bad.

He had open wounds on his head and his cheeks. I was trying to plaster them overnight so he wouldn't scratch them and make them bleed. Um, so yeah, six months I went daily free and, uh, within a couple days. It was clear to me that had been the, the problem. Um, it didn't solve it, it wasn't solving it. Um, and I knew, I thought I might have to test it, so to speak, and have some really just to double check because of this worry of if you exclude an allergen, it could, you know, develop into allergen, which there is some evidence of, I suppose.

Yeah. Um, so I didn't even have to test it. We'd gone out for lunch and there's been an accidental exposure through some bread that had milk in it, and that night he, the symptoms returned, so it became pretty obvious. Um, I then went back to the doctors. We got referred to dermatology for a skin at this point in time, and I said, I need to get referred to an allergy clinic as well, please.

Which they said there wasn't one. And I said, that's not true. There will be an allergy clinic. Um, it turned out you went through dermatology to get to allergy. There was kind of a bit of a, a gate keeping Okay. Between one to the other. And it did help the having the data out, but it hadn't solved it. We were still.

There were still some other things he dealt with. So we eventually got into dermatology and then did a bit of an escalation from there. 

[00:37:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. People are sort of confused, I think, about what kind of testing can happen at this age. So skin prick tests, you know, they're all over Instagram. Is that, is that something that he went through?

[00:37:37] Emily: Yeah, the skin prick test. Um, it was explained that if it was a delayed allergy they would not be able to confirm it via testing. But if it was an immediate IgE allergy, it could be confirmed via the skin prick test. They can also do blood tests, but they did the skin prick test for him when he was, um, eventually seen about eight months old.

So they prescribed us stronger steroids and they prescribed us an immunosuppressing cream as well for his face. So it was steroid sparing 'cause he wanted to avoid that on his face. And we did the skin prick and then we were left outside to sit and wait for the results. So effectively the. Prick the skin with the allergen and then wait to see if a hive e effectively develops around it a wheel.

And we're sitting there and I was, I was actually almost excited by the fact that we were having a reaction on his skin because I was like, it proves it, Luke. I, I knew it, I knew this was it. Which it feels horrible to then be happy that he had an allergy. But it was, 

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: well, you knew what was gonna happen, didn't you?

You knew, you knew already from all your maternal instincts. So you were now just getting that external validation of what you already knew. It wasn't that you wanted him to allergy. 

[00:38:42] Emily: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And we, they'd explained they should really only test for allergens that he'd been exposed to through weaning.

Um, so he'd never had dairy, but they, they were happy 'cause of my history with the breast milk reactions. And we'd also, they'd said to us, had you introduced peanuts yet? And we'd said, no, we hadn't. Um, my sister-in-law, so my husband's sister. Has a peanut allergy, not allergy in general with an EpiPen. So we'd been holding off.

Um, also on the basis is eczema. Eczema was still flared and we wanted them to be under control before we did kind of the, the more significant allergens. So although it's not part of protocol for them to test, uh, an allergen that's not been exposed, they did do a skin prick testing for peanut and that also came up positive at that point in time.

[00:39:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I, obviously, I'm not an expert in this area and I'm a bit confused about how allergy works. I thought you had to have some exposure for your body to produce a response. So does that mean he, he'd must have had some kind of trace exposure already? Not without eating it necessarily, and it was, his reaction was so sensitive that it came up on the skin protest.

[00:39:52] Emily: Um, that's the way I understand it and I didn't, I'm not, and I'm not clear if it's like exposure through breast milk. There seemed to be a line that, um, it's un you can't. Yeah. And I don't know, you'd have to do your own research I suppose, but you don't really react to nuts through breast milk. Um, I've not tested that theory.

[00:40:11] Emma Pickett: Um, but also you can, allergens are likely to develop, um, through eczema, like food, getting in through the eczema, the broken skin I guess. 

[00:40:21] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. So, and I did eat a lot of nuts. Okay. When I was, I was pregnant and when I was, oh, sorry, not pregnant, breastfeeding. So I suppose very likely trace amounts would've gone into that open skin.

[00:40:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So cow's milk, protein, the protein stays intact and travels as a protein through your milk. When someone's reacting to nut, what actually is it? Is it a protein in the nut? I don't actually know what it is. 

[00:40:45] Emily: I dunno, either. 

[00:40:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. Someone else needs to tell us. Someone listening to this goes, I know, please put in the comment underneath a post on Instagram.

Exactly what's happening. 'cause I, I need to understand, and maybe, maybe the reason it doesn't travel through milk in the same way, is it does get broken down and digestion in a way maybe and doesn't stay intact in the way that the cows milk protein allergy does. Um, okay, so at the point where you're getting this allergy testing, he's been eating solids for a couple of months already.

Does that mean that during the solids process you'd already not been offering dairy and being, being quite careful about what he'd been exposed to? 

[00:41:17] Emily: Yeah. He'd never, um, been exposed to dairy, uh, directly only through breast milk. 

[00:41:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So you've got information, you know what you're doing, and now it's just a case of getting organized, learning the protocols, educating everybody else, anyone new needs, more education, and you're here where you are today.

Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Can, can I ask you a little bit more about, um, a couple of other experiences you had? So you mentioned to me previously that you'd, you'd had a bit of a nursing strike. Tell us a bit more about that. 

[00:41:46] Emily: So he had a nursing strike when he was pretty much bang on 12 months old around the Christmas period.

And it's just interesting 'cause I didn't, I didn't know it was a thing. Um, my mom, who'd not breastfed had said, oh, my friend. Uh, so back in the day, 30 odd years ago, her, her son has just decided at 10 months old they didn't want to breastfeed anymore. And that'll be Emily, that'll be it. He just doesn't want to breastfeed anymore.

And I, I just didn't feel it. Just didn't feel right. And actually that's how I came across you, Emma. 'cause then I found a podcast and or an article or something you'd written, I can't remember. It was a long time ago now. And uh, it kind of, I kinda realized, ah, maybe this is a nursing strike. We'd gone down to visit family.

It was quite hectic, different environment. There was a lot going on. He'd got some teeth and he'd been a little bit bitty. And I think perhaps there might have been a bit of a association between the. Kind of relation to me stopping him breastfeeding with the, the biting maybe. Yeah. And the reactions I was giving.

[00:42:50] Emma Pickett: That's super, super common. So, so absolutely through no filter, your own, but that, that sense of, ooh, you know, not, and not even a, mm-hmm. I mean, some people, you know, read bizarre information online that tells 'em to say no really loudly, which is the worst thing you can do. But obviously no human can react without any response if, if someone bites them.

So that, that moment of shock sometimes triggers a panic in them. And that is, I'd say probably the most common, um, trigger for a nursing strike, uh, alongside other oral pain, you know, hand foot mouse disease or something else, you know, for oral injury or something. But that bite reaction is super common.

So you were offering the breast and he was saying, no thank you. 

[00:43:29] Emily: Nope. And definitely when we were then at the, our family's house, it was just, uh, no. Um. So we came back home and then just tried to follow all the advice, um, to try and break a nursing strike. And I know for a lot of people, probably at the 12 month mark, almost leaning into nursing, nursing strike, if they didn't think we were gonna be nursing a toddler, it almost seemed like opportune timing and it felt like a decision we were making.

We could just have gone down. The route of that would be him weaning, you know, and us going through that weaning process with them, even if he wanted to, to, you know, start breastfeeding again. And after a couple days where, once the, the strike had broken, but we knew we wanted to continue breastfeeding because of the benefits around allergies.

Yeah. So we made a conscious effort to try and get him back to the breast. 

[00:44:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and do you remember how you did that? Obviously it's a year ago now, but how did that go? 

[00:44:21] Emily: Yeah, we tried lots of things. Um, I think there was like spinning on a chair while breastfeeding. At one point. We tried a lot of different things.

The thing that worked for us was my husband, um. It worked for naps, basically, and sleeping. My husband would take him out in the pram or the sling to get him to sleep. He would then bring him back to me as sleep and I would, I would continue breastfeeding him, then he would be sleepy enough that to be happy to go on and being in our own environment as well.

He then, I think just solely came background to the normal, the routine. And I think probably as well as probably when the night, uh, the night, uh, breastfeeding increased as well. Probably because I was leaning into it. 'cause I was like, you know, it started off with um, you know, not having the, having the nursing strike and then, uh, trying to breastfeed him when he was asleep.

[00:45:12] Emma Pickett: So your co-sleeping started around that age because of the nursing strike potentially. 

[00:45:16] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. So sleepy feeds often how a nursing strike breaks at this point. For sure.

[00:45:21] Emma Pickett: And it's interesting how many people tell the story of, oh yes, my child just stopped breastfeeding at 12 months. And any of us who know breastfeeding kids at this age will look back and go, gosh, that, that was probably a strike, isn't it?

'cause self weaning doesn't tend to happen abruptly. Self weaning tends to be a, a very gradual process and self weaning at 10 months, 11 months, 12 months is doesn't in viral, you know, evolutionarily make much sense. It doesn't really make sense that children of that age would just randomly and breastfeeding out of nowhere.

Um, so yeah, as you say, with the allergy, you had that extra motivation for wanting to turn things around and I'm glad that worked out. And then you also touched on having some surgery yourself and having some separation from Finn. Tell us about that. 

[00:46:01] Emily: So when I, when he was about 18, 19 months, I had gone in for a routine wisdom tooth removal.

Uh, growing up my wisdom tooth had always known it was impacted. It was growing the wrong direction. And I would, I knew it would have to come out at some point, and it just happened to be, I came to the top of the waiting list. Once I'd had a child. So the initial pre-assessment came through when he was under 12 months old.

And I'd said, this is probably not the right time. I, I don't really want to, to go through it now. Although it was reassured, it was a day procedure, local anesthetic, it was surgeries, it was in the hospital, and it was a slightly complex procedure because of, um, some of the factors I had. But it was, it was non-urgent.

Um, the wisdom tooth wasn't infected, it was just to come out at some point. So eventually a date came through that did suit, and I felt around the 18th month Mark was sensible. I was back at work, he was at nursery. Um, and we had agreed, uh, with my, with my partner that I would have my first night away from Finley afterwards, just so I could have a night, not co-sleeping, not bed sharing, not breastfeeding at night, just so I could recover.

Mm-hmm. So I'd go to my mom's house. And have a night there. And I thought, that's fine. I can handle that. I can handle one night away from, from Finley. Um, and unfortunately I ended up with a postoperative complication, which resulted in me being away from him for five nights in total, unexpectedly without planning.

The one night we'd planned for, it went really well. We'd planned for it. We told him he understood a lot at that age. Um, and everyone was prepared for it. But the unplanned, a complication and unplanned separation was something I didn't know how to handle as someone who was still breastfeeding. A toddler.

[00:47:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, some people listening to this would be be going, oh my God, that is our nightmare. The imagining that, I mean, obviously on the positive side, you had your mom, you had family, you had your partner, you know, they were there to support you. You talked about your mom advocating for you in hospital.

What sort of battles did you have to have? 

[00:48:08] Emily: Well, I'd. Phone to go into the hospital. 'cause of the symptoms I was having, I'd had the procedure on the, the Friday, and then by the Wednesday, um, I wasn't feeling well and I'd had clear symptoms that I thought needed attention. So I dropped Finley off at nursery that morning.

Uh, which is unusual. I don't normally drop 'em off 'cause of my work. I don't have the, I could, the hours I do, um, it's normally dad that drops 'em off. So I said, bye Finley, I'll see you tonight. Which was exciting because mom doesn't normally pick up from nursery. And I went into the hospital for a, for an assessment.

Um, I got there and was immediately hooked up to drips and put in a wheelchair. And I thought, oh ho, this is, this is going a little bit beyond what I thought. I thought I'd just get some antibiotic tablets and anti-inflammatories and sent home on my way. Um, so I phoned my mom as any 30-year-old woman does, and I said, mom, I need you.

Come and help, please. I'm very lucky I've got her. Um, and in she came and, uh, she came to find me while I was waiting for a CT scan. I had just been in to have the CT scan and I'd said, I'd already said to the health professionals that I first met just to flag, I am breastfeeding, so can we just discuss any medication?

Because I assumed it was like short term, you know, I was gonna go home the next day type thing. Yeah. Um, and I went for the CT scan and I said to them, uh, I dunno much about CT scans just to flag I'm breastfeeding. Is there anything I have to consider? And there was a bit of a conversation that sort of concluded with, uh, I think it's probably more important, you have the CT scan so you're alive for your child than uh, worry about breastfeeding.

I was like, okay, yep, sure, of course. Sign the form, let's do it. And then at that point I told my mom and said, mom, I need your help. I don't, I need someone just to, it is all too much. And she came in and then it just meant that each person I met along the way, she kind of, when I might have forgotten 'cause there was big conversations happening, she reminded them.

Um, and it escalated into me having emergency surgery under general anesthetic. With, uh, possibility of me being in the intensive care unit. Uh, after I'd had the procedure and I was then exploding, my mom was then exploding as well. If she's in intensive care unit, she will have to, uh, someone will have to do pump, have to breast pump for her.

And someone on the, uh, outpatient, uh, ward, wonderful woman, I don't even remember her name. She was wonderful. She'd breastfed her three children, uh, until they were toddlers. She'd never had nights away from them. And she, she got it. I don't even think she was part of, she was just someone from a different clinic or a different different room who just suddenly appeared and was there to help.

And she went to get me a breast pump from a e, um, that I then used before I went for surgery. So my mom then was responsible for the breast pump. She was carrying it around with her and making sure it came with me to the ward. 

[00:50:53] Emma Pickett: So that, I mean, good. Three, cheers for your mom. That sounds like she was absolutely there in the right place.

And also three cheers for that person who was advocating for you and, and finding you a breast pump. I'm kind of impressed there was a breast pump in a and e 'cause that's not a story I was hear. And, and how are you feeling at this point? Are you too ill to have an emotional reaction to this? What sort such state were you in?

[00:51:12] Emily: Oh, I was, it was, it was pretty hard. The nursery had also just sent me getting these little updates daily and they just sent a little photograph of Finley out in the park, um, where he'd drawn a picture on the, on the floor and they'd written Finley's drawn a picture. Uh, when we asked him what he was drawing, he said, mommy.

And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna see him now. And I was saying to the consultant, you know, I do have this, this breastfed toddler at home that I want to get home to. And they said, you'll be in, you'll have, you'll have to be in a couple days. So yeah, that's when, um, I, I wasn't feeling well. I also was quite upset.

Um, but family stepped in my husband's side of the family as well. We just got. All of the grandparents on hand. 'cause we all expected Finley to be upset as well. 

[00:51:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And whoever's looking after him, presumably obviously not able to breastfeed overnight. So someone's co-sleeping and cuddling and, and doing the best they can.

Um, and I'm hoping they didn't share very much with you about what was going on that time because there's not much you can do about it. But he's not drinking any milk. He's just eating and, and drinking water, presumably while he's separated from you. And so how many nights were you away from him in total?

[00:52:20] Emily: Uh, five. Well, one break and then five. 

[00:52:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. And when you came back to be with him, did you feel well enough to go back to co-sleeping? What was that reunion like? 

[00:52:32] Emily: Yeah, we went back to bed sharing and everything as normal. And again, it was another point where we could have went into it and started a weaning journey.

But I also really didn't want that to be how our journey, it ended. We'd had so many things along the way that we'd had to. Make happen. Um, that I didn't want that to be the end. Um, and he didn't either. And again, the allergies always come back to allergies. I wanted to go a little bit longer. The trouble had been is the consultants had put me on an antibiotic, which they said was contraindicated in breastfeeding.

So there was gonna be a bit of a, there was a lot of consideration around how I would, because I, on paper they'd said, um, I'd have had to have a equivalent of two and a half weeks of breastfeeding, and then I, then you can, then you can breastfeed again. And I was like, that's never going to work. Um, but I then contacted the various people that I knew to contact.

[00:53:31] Emma Pickett: So the drugs and breast milk team from the breastfeeding network? Exactly. UK Dilas from the Specialist Pharmacist Services. Um, these are the people that who will give you those, that right information. And did they say that wasn't the case? 

[00:53:42] Emily: Yeah, it was fine. 

[00:53:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it meant I was then comfortable to go back to him and resume breastfeeding if he wanted.

[00:53:50] Emily: Was always, I knew it had to be if he wanted. And to be honest, he was quite unhappy when I came back. Um, I think it was our mom. Where have you been? Yeah, yeah. So he didn't visit you in hospital. That didn't feel appropriate, that didn't feel like the right thing to do. Were you able to even talk to him or, or do you know?

Happy people explained to him what was going on. So he did understand a lot. And there's a photo in my, my mom's hall of me at my graduation and my mom would say to him, mommy, sore teeth, she's got sore teeth. Just that very simple. And I, um, it got to the point where he was then pointing, going mommy and pointing at his teeth and going teeth and, you know, so there was a sort of trying to help him understand.

Um, and he spent a lot of time in the pram, um, for sleeping. He likes motion. So if they weren't, uh, managing overnight in the bed and cuddling, he went in the pram, went a little walk, and then stayed asleep in the pram for a period of time before he got shielded again. And a lot of distraction, you know?

Yeah. A lot of different grandparents came to, to see him. Um, a lot of aunts and uncles just to, to try and keep it fun. 

[00:54:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And then you mentioned when you got reunited, he was a bit bemused and confused about where you'd been and there was that kind of rupture that needed repair. And that must have been tough for you emotionally as well.

[00:55:05] Emily: Yeah, I mean, I obviously I wanted to see him and give him a big hug and think, yes, I'll breastfeed you and I'll just spend time with you and, you know, but he'd, he just was a bit confused. I get it, it makes total sense. After that, after about six hours, well then he didn't leave my side for the next three months, you know, he was attached to me like a limpet, which was hard.

While I was still recovering, I ended up signed off work sick for 10 weeks. I was quite unwell after it as well, obviously in terms of recovery. Um, a lot of follow up and physio and, and, and things like that. So yeah, there was a, it definitely was, we had to do a conscious effort to come, was rebuild that.

And it was, I'm glad I had breastfeeding to help with it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, and co-sleeping as well, and you know. Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:50] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's a, that's a, you were not, well, I mean that was that you got knocked for six then. I mean, I don't want to ask you for sort of private medical information, but was that an infection that you were dealing with essentially?

[00:56:00] Emily: Yeah. So unexpected postoperative infection. Um, my tooth wasn't infected before. It is just, I suppose, all surgeries, if you've ever had a surgery, there's a one in whatever risk that someone might get a very bad infection. And I suppose I was, that, that person, it had gone down from the tooth socket into my neck, which was then, uh, at risk of going into my throat, which obviously would be an airway issue and a breathing issue, hence the emergency surgery and the discussion of intensive, intensive care and things like that.

[00:56:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Golly. Okay. But good three, cheers for the fact that your mom was there to keep your milk supply going. So you didn't worry about, we haven't even talked about, I know you've had mastitis in the past, but we haven't even talked about your history with mastitis. But during the actual hospitalization.

You were able to stay comfortable and people were expressing you while you were in, you know, the really knocked out and not well, yeah, so in, in, in the end, actually I didn't go to the intensive care unit. 

[00:56:52] Emily: Actually, I should just make sure you say that. Um, we, we just went to the ward, but it, my husband came that evening when I was pretty knocked out and got the press pump going for me.

I was awake and kind of helped him through it. But he did all the, the fiddling and the holding and all that sort of stuff. And then after that I just sat on the ward for several days, um, and spent time sometimes pumping and they, they very kindly got me a side room. So, 'cause it was a, it was like a, mostly an elderly ward.

Um, so I didn't have to sit there with a little audience while I used the breast bump. 

[00:57:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And what, what do you think is gonna be Finn's ending? What do you imagine, do you, when I, when someone says, oh, when, when are you gonna stop breastfeeding? What's your answer to that question? 

[00:57:32] Emily: So, a couple weeks ago we were, we were quite interested in doing stepping up the night, meaning we've put steps in place to try and make it more manageable.

And I think that would've, yeah, if I spoke to you a couple weeks ago, I'd be saying I, in the next weeks to months, we'll probably nightmare. It's all about timings as it is for families with all sorts of things. You've gotta pick the right time for when you start potty tuning, when you start doing this and that.

But we've got lots of other things that we have to try and manage in amongst our finding the right time. There's lots of things with his allergies, with the milk ladders. He's got to try a soy ladder. He's still being exposed to other nuts and we almost, if you get a weekend, so last weekend we had a free weekend, so we decided to introduce hazelnut.

Um, thankfully he's good with it. That's amazing. But I suppose for us, we have to then try and pick what to do. I wouldn't introduce hazelnut and try and, uh, step up night weaning at the same time. So it's a timing thing, I suppose. Um, and then something like this happens for, in the past week he's had allergy flare up and I go, oh, but it's so useful for that.

But equally anyway. The, I think there'll be a little bit of intervention from us to try and step him in the right direction, uh, with the night side of things, whether that's, um, you know, generally reducing him when he is unwell, perhaps stepping up again and then stepping back, um, is something we might explore.

And in the day, I think it'll be led by him. He's already reducing his day, his day feeding, he's much more into running around and looking in toys than breastfeeding in the day. So I, I imagine I don't, I imagine some of those feeds will naturally drop. Yeah. Particularly that one after nursery that's already starting to reduce in the past couple weeks.

[00:59:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so, so one option might be when he's, well, you scale back a bit, but you keep breastfeeding at night kind of in your toolbox for times when he is having a flare up. And just working out how you would communicate that to him and, and um, you know, how to make that clear when there is that differential.

But that's definitely a possibility. And then obviously one day there won't be breastfeeding at all anymore. Um mm-hmm. And yeah, that will be a big day when it comes 'cause it's obviously been an important part of your life. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Emily. You've been really, really helpful, particularly with that, with the allergy part of your history.

Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you think we need to mention? 

[00:59:50] Emily: No, I think we've gone through it. I just want people to know that you can still breastfeed a baby with allergies. It's possible. Um, I've met lots of people as well on the way who were told or thought that once they had an allergy, the child had an allergy.

They just had to stop breastfeeding. And it, and it is possible. It's hard, but it's possible. 

[01:00:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And do you miss dairy? How are you, you're presumably a dairy free household at the moment. 

[01:00:14] Emily: Yeah. 

[01:00:15] Emma Pickett: I'm guessing that feels like a small sacrifice to keep Finn safe. 

Yeah. No, no. Dairy limited nuts and soya. Soya is the hard one.

[01:00:22] Emily: Soya is in a lot of things actually. You find it's in, you start taking packages 60% of processed foods. Um, but yeah, I do, I do miss a, a nice chocolate bar, but I find lots of good alternatives and I actually really glad that we're doing it. 'cause I get to experience what he will experience if he stays allergic.

[01:00:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You're gonna be the expert in all the products, don't you? 

[01:00:42] Emily: And going to like restaurants and, you know, managing his allergies. I'm, I'm learning for him so I can help him learn about in the future when he's older. 

[01:00:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:00:50] Emily: And obviously his ability to advocate for himself and his, you know, the language that he uses is all become increasingly important as he takes more responsibility over that he's been taught already.

If someone says, would you like a cup of milk? He goes, would. No milk allergic. 

[01:01:06] Emma Pickett: Oh, bless him. So he's, he's already already started. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Emily. Do let us know how things get carry on, and I'd love to hear about the ending of Finn's story when it finally happens. 

[01:01:18] Emily: Thank you.

[01:01:23] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.