Jessica's story - inverted nipples, breastfeeding grief and finding solutions

This week I’m joined from Sydney in Australia, by midwife Jessica Baker to talk about breastfeeding her two daughters and the grief and mental health impact when feeding doesn’t go to plan. Jessica describes anticipating difficulty due to inverted nipples, having a home birth with Vada followed by special care admission, early nipple-shield use, severe engorgement, and missed support because staff assumed she was confident as a midwife. After a tongue and lip tie release with a laser, Vada’s feeding deteriorated, weight loss followed, and Jessica moved onto top-ups and then exclusive pumping, experiencing depression and long-lasting grief despite producing abundant milk. With Olive, early breastfeeding began well but when Olive’s feeding stalled, it led to panic, PTSD symptoms and then EMDR therapy, and medication. Jessica is still feeding two-year-old Olive from one side, having established “booby manners” and realistic expectations around toddler feeding and weaning. 

You can follow Jessica’s new business on Instagram @‌cub.andkin

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.

Today I'm honored to be speaking to Jessica, that's Jessica Baker from Sydney in Australia, and we're gonna be talking about her experience of breastfeeding her two daughters, the challenges, the experience of being a midwife and having certain expectations, and maybe those expectations not being met.

And we will talk about some difficult stuff, so some breastfeeding grief and some, and some mental health challenges as well. Thank you very much for joining me today, Jessica. I, I really appreciate it. 

[00:01:13] Jessica: Thanks so much for having me. It's fabulous. Listening to your podcast in my ear and now talking to you now, it feels very bizarre.

[00:01:19] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

bless you. Uh, we'll edit that bit out. Um, just kid- Just kidding. Uh, tell, tell me about your family. 

[00:01:25] Jessica: I have a husband, and we've been married for nine years now. So we got married very young. I think I was 20, 21, ridiculously. And when I was 26, we had our first baby, Vada, who is now four years old, a little girl.

20 months after Vada was born we had our second baby, Olive, who is, uh, now two and a half, and another little girl, and then I think we're done. There's no more additions. 

[00:01:52] Emma Pickett: Aw. Can't wait, though. I, I love the name Vada. It's not a name I hear very much. What's the origin of the name Vada? 

[00:01:56] Jessica: Hmm. The movie My Girl.

You know that really sad Macaulay Culkin-

[00:02:00] Emma Pickett: Oh, the one when he's in the coffin and he needs his glasses ... needs his glasses, his 

[00:02:03] Jessica: glasses. He needs his glasses. Oh. She is Vada. The little girl's name is Vada. 

[00:02:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. Is that, is that the only place you've come across it? 'Cause I've never heard anywhere else. 

[00:02:11] Jessica: I know one other Vada from, like, a renovation show.

This couple on this renovation show called it, their young daughter Vada, and she's, like, now she's probably, like, 9 or 10. She's this really cool, like, surfer, skater chick, plays the drums, and I was like, "Yeah, I want a Vada." And my Vada is princess dresses and ballet, and there's nothing cool about her.

[00:02:35] Emma Pickett: No. So she 

doesn't scream Vada, but- 

[00:02:38] Emma Pickett: They go through phases ... yeah. I, I have somebody- Yeah ... who was obsessed with princess dresses and, and now she's into climbing and all sorts of stuff, so it- Yeah ... so, you know, they go- Yeah, yeah ... they al- I think they often go through that phase, don't they, where they explore what being a female means, and lean into that- Yes

and then they come out the other side of it. Um, yeah, I'm sure your Vada is very cool Okay. So we're gonna talk today about your breastfeeding journey, but before we do that- Mm ... tell us a little bit about before you had Vada, before you became a mother. You were working as a midwife. Tell us what work was like, what was your kind of contact with breastfeeding, what were your feelings around breastfeeding?

[00:03:13] Jessica: Yeah. So I went into my degree straight from high school, a Bachelor of Midwifery degree. Did the three years, then went working in the public system, and I predominantly was a birth center and then midwifery group practice midwife. So I didn't spend too much time on the ward in, like, the nitty-gritty of the first three days, but I was more so, like, MSP, which is our, like, after birth, once you've gone home and discharged from hospital, the midwife comes and visit you at home a couple of times.

So I'd seen a little bit of that. But actually, my experience with breastfeeding was not that extensive, I don't think. I had kind of the, I guess, baseline knowledge of the stuff we'd learnt at uni, and then every year in Australia we have to do eight hours of birth education, breastfeeding education. So I'd done that.

But when things were tricky, straight away you get a referral to the lactation consultant. So I was sitting a little bit in the, in the difficulty, but not, not too much. Never kind of following it through. 

[00:04:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you've got quite a system of signposting then. So it's, so in the UK it's not necessarily the case that everyone's gonna- Mm

eventually be signposted to an IBCLC, but in Australia, that is the system. So if you're a midwife and you meet somebody who's struggling, you know that you're gonna be able to signpost them to a specialist service. 

[00:04:32] Jessica: Yeah, if they're in a public hospital, there's a lactation consultant on the ward Monday to Friday in business hours.

So, you know, we'd put in a referral to them, and they'd pop in and see them at some point- 

[00:04:44] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:04:44] Jessica: while they're staying. 

[00:04:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. And the people who give birth on Saturday can just go to the wind, isn't it ? Yeah. It's so fascinating- Yeah ... how that happens. I was, gosh, I was watching a video on Instagram the other day and someone was saying when they were in Japan, if you want an epidural, the people that do epidurals are only available Monday to Friday, nine to five as well-

in, in this particular hospital, and she ended up- Yeah ... giving birth somewhere else. It is fascinating, isn't it? What we prioritize- Yeah ... as a society. Um, and what about any kind of f- family contact with breastfeeding or any kind of personal feelings around breastfeeding? 

[00:05:13] Jessica: Um, my mum had breastfed both of us, I think, for a year or a year and a bit, and she'd always talked about how kind of positive an experience that was, and I really wanted to breastfeed But on, I think it was day two or three of uni, we did a lecture on inverted nipples.

And I was a very sheltered young girl, and I didn't know what different kind of nipples looked like, and I lifted do- I looked down my shirt and was like, "Oh, no. I have what she's talking about. I have inverted nipples." And so I knew I was kind of like self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. I'd really worked myself up thinking, "This is gonna be really hard.

It's gonna be really hard 'cause I've got these inverted nipples." So yeah, I think I really, really, really wanted to breastfeed more so I think knowing that it was gonna be difficult. But it ... By the time I fell pregnant, I'd worked myself up into this feeling of, it's gonna be really tricky. 

[00:06:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's, it is interesting, isn't it?

There's a kind of double-edged sword to that kind of education and preparation. I think it, when we talk to people with inverted nipples, we've gotta get it so right because if you- Mm ... fill them with doom, that sense of lack of confidence and lack of self-belief, which is, you know from your work, is such a core part of why breastfeeding- Mm

often doesn't work out is, is really tricky. But also you need to dealt- talk to people about reducing engorgement risk and, you know, what the first couple of days will look like- Mm ... and antenatal expression. Um, what was your education like while you were pregnant? Did you get any extra classes, or did you think, "Hey, I don't need this 'cause this is my job"?

[00:06:43] Jessica: I did a birth class, but I didn't do anything specific to breastfeeding. Uh, my preparation in terms of breastfeeding was taking home some nipple shields from the hospital, and getting a 20 mil syringe and cutting the end off so that I could try and aspirate my nipple out, pull it out in the pregnancy, which didn't work.

It was pretty stubborn. And bringing home heaps of antenatal expressing syringes and really going to town on that from 36 weeks. 

[00:07:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. And how, how did you get on with antenatal expressing? Did you get good results? 

[00:07:13] Jessica: Mm. Yeah, I think I had, like, 40 mils by the time I- Wow. Okay ... gave birth. Yeah, so I, uh, there's m- the first photo of me when I'd expressed at 36 weeks, I was so proud of myself.

I had two one mil syringes. I was, like, holding them up so chuffed. Um, yeah, so that felt really good. It felt like I could do something, you know, like, because I think you're right with that confidence part in our body. I was really hard on myself already that my anatomy was failing me and that it was, you know, it wasn't gonna work.

And, and even I had in my phone on my notes reasons why I thought I wasn't gonna birth well was because of my inverted nipples. That that inherent part of me being a woman meant that the rest of my, my ability to be a woman wasn't gonna work. So it was so, it was so ingrained in me already- Yeah, 

[00:08:08] Emma Pickett: messy Okay.

Okay. Yeah, messy's a good word. Tell me about Vada's birth and those first couple of days. 

[00:08:14] Jessica: So again, because I thought breastfeeding was gonna be so hard, I chose to have a home birth thinking that that would set me up for success. It's what the research shows, you know, physiological birth and all that kind of stuff kind of reduces the complexity of breastfeeding in those early days.

But unfortunately, I had my home birth. It was a long, long labor, long time pushing, and she came out quite flat. Um, and we needed to go to hospital probably in the first hour or so. 

[00:08:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. When you say flat, tell me, tell me what you mean when you say flat. 

[00:08:44] Jessica: Yeah, like she came out quite white and pale and floppy, and with some good stimulation, some good rubbing, she had a few attempts at a cry, but in between kind of the stimulation would tap out again.

Needed some, like, blow over oxygen. Never needed any, like, breathing for her. But, um, once we cut the cord, which was still actually incredibly pulsing at about 45 minutes, cut the cord and then she went downhill. So obviously my body was getting feedback from her oxygen levels through the cord that she needed still my support.

So that cord didn't stop working, the placenta didn't detach and, but once that happened, then she kind of went downhill, went a bit more pale again and- Okay ... yeah. 

[00:09:29] Emma Pickett: That sounds scary. I mean, you're talking, you're in, in your sort of midwife zone there with the way you're describing it, but I'm, I, I imagine- Yeah

that was pretty scary. I, I mean, just, um, as an understatement. 

[00:09:40] Jessica: Yeah, I was very much in midwife brain, and when I walked, rocked up to the hospital My colleagues, 'cause I went to the hospital I worked at. I was like, "Hi, guys. Hi, look what I did. Here's my baby." And they're like, "Oh my gosh, your baby needs help."

I was like, "Oh, yeah, I guess." I was so kind of out of it and just like, "Look what I 

[00:09:57] Emma Pickett: did." Yeah ... that oxytocin high. It was- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... was k- k- keeping you going, for sure. Um Mm-hmm So she was admitted. 

[00:10:05] Jessica: Yep, she was admitted for five days. Uh, needed CPAP for 24 hours, and they wanted to do antibiotics and things 'cause I was GBS unknown, so yeah, she was there for four or five days in the end.

[00:10:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. And any, and did they think it was an infection? Do they know what was happening? Any ex- explanation for what happened? 

[00:10:23] Jessica: No, I think just a bit of TTN, and she was, you know- Okay, what's TTN? ... like a bit compromised from- What's TTN? Sorry. Transi- transient tachypnea of the newborn, so like when they're, uh, having like breathing distress, but it's temporary.

I would say she was a little bit compromised from the long pushing stage as well. Okay. Um, so just needed some support for a little while. So had the oxygen on for 24 hours, and then that came off, and then she was just there for monitoring and policy-led antibiotics. 

[00:10:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:10:54] Jessica: Like prophylactic, yeah. 

[00:10:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're there for five days, and it must be a bit weird being in the hospital where you normally work.

That must kind of be- Mm ... a bit freaky. And everyone going, "Oh, hi," um, "you're in the bed, you're in the bed. We don't often see you in the bed." Um, I mean, how does it feel- Yeah, it was bizarre ... to be the pa- to be the patient in the environment where you normally are the person working? 

[00:11:12] Jessica: Yeah, I liked it. I thought it was really nice having my colleagues there to chat to, and it was good except one colleague who's a bit of a character.

She banged open my door, woke me up from a nap, this was the day after birth, and then started talking to me about the things in the room and where the call bell was and stuff, and I was like, "Oh, yeah. Hi." Like, "Yeah, it's me." And she still didn't get that she knew me. I'd worked with her for seven years. She walked out of the room, and another midwife I heard say, "You know, that's Jess.

She, like she works here." And she was like, "Who? Nah, never met her. Don't know her." I was like, "Oh." So it was all a bit bizarre, but yes, I liked it. I felt safe and comfortable and heard and yeah, it was all really nice. 

[00:11:53] Emma Pickett: You sound quite relaxed in the way you're talking about those few days. So I'm guessing your knowledge and the fact that you trusted your colleagues and you trusted that hospital meant that you felt that.

I mean, you've used that word safe, which I think is quite a powerful word. So you didn't feel necessarily a sense of post-trauma or, I mean, even looking at you describing it now, you seem quite relaxed. 

[00:12:15] Jessica: Yeah. I think the only part that kind of stands out to me in terms of that disconnect is I gave birth to her, she was on my chest for about an hour all up, including the ambulance transfer, and this was on the back of a three-day labor and two and a half hours pushing, so I was pretty, like pretty zoned out.

But- I got sutured in the birth unit, had my shower, came down to special care nursery and sat down next to her and remember thinking like, "This is so bizarre that I'm just sitting next to a baby at work in special care and I'm not actually working." Like, there was no, this is my baby. Okay. Yeah, it was like, here's a baby in special care and they all look like this and yeah, she had the oxygen on and the temperature probes and the IV at that point and, and so I was like, I know I'm supposed to sit here because it's my baby, but I don't really feel like it's my baby.

So yeah, I sp- yeah, that was a big moment. But I guess now in hindsight, four years on, she's so gorgeous, and I'm so in love, and we're so connected that that maybe doesn't seem as significant now. Yeah. Yeah. But at the time, I remember just feeling really weird in that moment. But I wasn't ever stressed that she wasn't gonna be okay.

[00:13:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Thank- thanks for sharing that. I think that feeling of disconnect is something we're not often allowed to talk about, are we? Our society assumes- Mm. Mm ... the, the magic whoosh the minute you meet your baby. But that isn't- Mm ... that isn't the reality for lots and lots of people. Tell us about early feed- No, and it wasn't-

early feeding. Sorry, go on. 

[00:13:47] Jessica: Yeah, so... No, sorry. I was just gonna say it wasn't like that at the birth either, that moment of connection and bonding. I think I'd gone into it really, like, wanting to experience birth, pregnancy, postpartum as a midwife, not thinking as much, "I'm now gonna be a mother." So yeah, there was that, that disconnect.

I think the breastfeeding journey, as we'll find out later, kinda made, made that gap a bit bigger. But early breastfeeding, yeah, so she was on the oxygen for 24 hours, and they can't breastfeed during that time, so I was just hand expressing like I had been from 36 weeks. And then my first breastfeed with her, I would say that was a, a bit of a trauma point, where I sat down in the chair and the nurse took off the oxygen mask, so that's like taking tape off her cheeks, took out a NG tube, the little tube into her stomach, pulled that out, and then said, "Quick, quick, the doctors are coming around for their, like, ward rounds, so you need to calm her down so they can talk.

So quick, put her on the boob, put her on the boob." And I was like, "Oh, okay, yep", and lifted down my top, and the nurse went, "Oh gosh, you've got inverted nipples. Oh, here", and passed me a nipple shield, put it on me, and then kind of shoved Vada on. And I thought like, "Oh gosh, like this is not how I wanted it to go", and kind of just, like, went through the motions.

She went on with the shield, and I was pretty stoked at that. But I remember walking away from that feed going like, "We didn't even give her the chance to feed without a nipple shield"- Yeah ... 

[00:15:16] Emma Pickett: like. Oh, that's, Jessica, that sound- that's so ru- that rushing feeling. Oh, that just sounds so grim- Yeah ... that that was- Yeah

that first feed, that was what was going on. You were feeling that sense of time pressure. And then, like, 

[00:15:27] Jessica: the doctors were rounding in the middle of my first feed, and there was... I wish that could've been different, for sure. 

[00:15:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, nipple shields, I think, often get a bad rep when actually they can absolutely save the day, and can be super valuable.

But I'm gonna say something that I probably necessarily pr- maybe wouldn't say if you weren't a midwife, but you pr- I'm sure you're aware we don't normally want to begin with a nipple shield. No. Um, for a few different reasons. One is that transfer of colostrum through a shield is often pretty ineffective because it's g- just gonna get trapped in the shield.

But also people can feed with inverted nipples. And, um- Yeah ... and you weren't even being given that chance. Um, but I love the use of the word stoked. Great Aussie word. Um- ... stoked. So she did go on, and did you sense that she was- Yeah ... trans- transferring milk and it felt effective? 

[00:16:15] Jessica: I don't know. I can't remember in that first feed Like, that was 24 hours, and I know I had quite a lot of colostrum, but I doubt there was good flow through the shield at that point.

But she was sucking rhythmically. Maybe I could hear one or two swallows, but yeah, I can't really remember specifically at that time, but I doubt it in hindsight. 

[00:16:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. And then what happened with her feeding after that? 

[00:16:38] Jessica: And then it was a couple of days in the hospital with the shield. I got really engorged.

Really, really engorged, and this was a blind spot in my education because the engorgement was not going down. There was no release. There was no... Well, I, I... There was a bit of softening, but really it was probably too much engorgement- Okay ... because the, the transfer just wasn't happening. I remember at midnight or so one night, this would've been like day four, she woke up a bit, she started stirring, so I put the shield on, and then I must have fallen back asleep with her on my chest, and I woke up to it being like a little waterfall out of my shield, this milk just pouring out, and I was just having a letdown in the middle of the night when she was fast asleep and I was fast asleep.

I was like, "Gosh, that's so bizarre." So I think the transfer of milk was predominantly just letdown based. There wasn't a great seal going on- Okay. So she's- ... with 

[00:17:37] Emma Pickett: the shield ... so you've got lots of milk. She's glugging away, but not necessarily- Mm ... as you say, with that attachment, then in the longer term is gonna mean effective, effective breastfeeding.

Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:17:46] Jessica: But that wasn't picked up. That was just a moment of me at night, um, going like, "Gosh, I'm so, uh, engorged. I d- don't know if this is normal." But because I was a midwife, actually no one watched me breastfeed. Okay. Mm. No one. Yeah, so and because I was six years into my career, but I hadn't really seen much of this early breastfeeding, I mean, I was relatively confident, but then add onto that postpartum and it's your own baby, and you're not really thinking straight.

It was, it was missed, I think, by me and then the midwives as well. 

[00:18:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Engorgement and inverted nipples, not a great combo because- Yeah ... obviously with that firm breast tissue, for anyone who's not familiar, we're not gonna be able to get the baby getting purchase on the nipple and drawing the nipple back- Yeah

to where we need it to be, which is that junction of the hard and soft palate. They're gonna be staying with that more shallow latch, and also can be harder to even get the letdown sometimes if you've got engorgement because those l- those ducts can't widen in that, in that space f- where all that fluid is being held.

But it sounds like you weren't having problems with the letdown, so you were expressing, and obviously milk production sounds like it was pretty positive. 

[00:18:54] Jessica: Yeah. I was, I don't know why, but I was probably pumping on top of that, I think, 'cause I thought, "This is gonna be hard. This is gonna be hard." So I, I went into it absolutely overcomplicating it from the start, pumping more, and then I had to do that reverse pressure softening as well to try and get the fluid back up to soften the areola so that she could get on.

So it was all happening. But I was kinda just leading it myself without much guidance at 

[00:19:18] Emma Pickett: that point I was gonna say, you're all on your own at this point. You haven't yet- 

[00:19:20] Jessica: Yeah ... 

[00:19:21] Emma Pickett: talked about anyone supporting you. And, and it's, I mean, you're describing a positive picture in a way. Somebody who's, you know, got the tools and got the confidence and is resolving- Mm

problems themselves. But when did it start to really not feel positive? 

[00:19:36] Jessica: Mm. So I went home, discharged home, and was using a shield pretty well. The baby's weight at two weeks was pretty positive, and then I think at three or four weeks I started... I was looking through my phone at all the photos to try and, like, remember the timeline.

Probably about four weeks, the photos of the green small poos started coming in. 

[00:20:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:20:02] Jessica: Lots of videos of me filming her suck, which was never that rhythmic. So I think at probably the four-week mark I started to think, "I don't think this is quite right." Again, still pretty engorged at this point, but I was pumping maybe once or twice a day on top of the feed, so it might have just been that, but I would say, yeah, the transfer wasn't very good.

Went to see a lactation consultant at six weeks, who in hindsight was probably the wrong choice for me at the time She made me buy the $100 breastfeeding pillow, all very structured and rigid. She said, "Third hourly feeds, you've gotta be in this position at this exact point, sit up in this way." She did pick up that the sucking wasn't very rhythmic, and then identified that Vada had a tongue and lip tie that she recommended to get released.

Okay. 

[00:20:55] Emma Pickett: It's interesting you mentioned a lip tie, 'cause in the UK we're not really at the point where we consider there's enough evidence to release lip ties for lactation purposes. What's happening in Australia with that conversation? 

[00:21:06] Jessica: Mm. Look, I would say it's about the same, but I didn't know that at the time.

I kind of just followed her advice as I... Ultimately, I was, at that point, "I really wanna get off the shields. I don't wanna feed long-term on the shields." Whether that was, I think it was a bit of pride and, you know, convenience and all of that kind of stuff. She said, "You won't get off the shields unless you get this tongue and lip tie released."

And I was like, "Okay. All right then. I'll do that." Then when I came back to work a year later, telling my story to the lactation consultant, she said, "Oh, there's really not good evidence for lip tie release, and they really shouldn't be using a laser for either of those anyway," which is what she had. So a- at eight weeks she had a tongue and lip tie release with a laser at a clinic, and I was sitting in the room.

She came back in to me, and I was like, "Right. Here we go. We're gonna feed without the shield." Put her on, and no, she was not having a bar of it. Obviously her mouth was sore, and this way she'd figured out, clunky way I think, not 100% effective, but it was relatively working, of sucking, now wasn't working anymore.

[00:22:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So all her little compensatory techniques had been completely lost, and she didn't know- Mm ... quite how to organize herself on the breast. Interesting what you're saying about the laser. We do have a couple of laser practitioners in the UK, but they tend to be dentists, um, coming at it from- Mm ... a pediatric dental perspective.

Uh- Yeah ... most tongue- That was the clinic ... yeah, most tongue-tie practitioners in the UK will be using round-ended scissors an- and some surgeons are using scalpels, but it's very unusual to use lasers for, for lactation divisions, if that makes sense. Yeah. But, you know, I'm not gonna necessarily say that that's always invalid, um, because, you know, there are some practitioners who do feel that lasers are effe- effective But in your case, you didn't feel that that experience was necessarily positive.

Are you gonna go on to tell me that she'd learnt how to do it, and it was all great after a while, or- Oh, 

[00:22:59] Jessica: I am absolutely not. Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. Um, so she had the tongue and lip tie released, and then that weekend we went on a little trip down the coast, and the next day suddenly I had these blocked ducts, and I didn't know why.

Couldn't figure it out. Felt really sick. Getting these blocked ducts didn't turn into mastitis, but then when I got home, pumped and it released, and weighed her, and she'd lost weight in the, like, week since I'd weighed her. And she was really unsettled. There was a really low point where we were at home by ourselves, and she was crying for a good four or five hours, and I could not get her to settle.

I couldn't get her on the boob. I tried a bath with her, skin-to-skin. Eventually she fell asleep skin-to-skin, wrapped up in my dressing gown with me. But that was a pretty rough moment, and that all kind of came at the same time. Her poo started getting a lot darker, a lot greener. And her nappies, I remember, like, everyone says heavy, wet nappies, but what does heavy mean?

I was so, like, every single nappy I would, like, bob up and down, and is this heavier than the last one, and does this mean heavy, and what is heavy? 

[00:24:10] Emma Pickett: No, you're right. It's, it's not helpful, is it, at the end of the day? Um, I mean, they say at least six wet nappies, but that word heavy- Mm ... is not useful when nappies can vary as much as they do.

When you're talking about green poo, I think some- I think, um, I did an episode about poo with the lovely Charlotte Tritle, if anyone wants to listen a bit more about the poo conversation. Mm. So, so green poo can be within normal range for, for breastfed baby poos. Mm. It doesn't necessarily indicate anything's wrong.

But we do also find sometimes if there is insufficient milk production and milk transfer, um, and we see insufficient poos, that they can sometimes be green poos as well occasionally. Um- Mm ... and you, and so your gut feeling was she's not getting enough milk. This isn't, this isn't feeling good. Um, obviously- Yeah, I think so

the inter- your blocked ducts were also a bit of a red flag as well. 

[00:24:58] Jessica: Yeah. I did have my private midwife- Still seeing me up until the six-week mark, and she kind of just said like, "Oh, no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine with the green poos. Green poos are normal." And I was like, "Ah, but..." I hope it wasn't anxiety, like unwarranted, but I did have this sense of I, this isn't right.

And then obviously it all got a bit worse. That 

[00:25:20] Emma Pickett: w- the word copious is a word I never see used with anything else other than baby poo, but we want lots of it. Mm-hmm. So if you're seeing- Yes ... teeny weeny little mini poos, and that's the change- Yeah ... and al- well, obviously she lost weight. That must have been horrifying.

At six, seven weeks for a baby to lose weight is not- Yeah ... is not what we want to see. Um, and as a midwife, that must have been, you know, you probably thought, "Gosh, if I went to a home and th- met a baby who'd lost weight at this age, I'd be, you know, very concerned." So that must have been really grim with your mummy brain and your midwife brain at the same time.

[00:25:49] Jessica: Yeah. I don't know how many weeks she was when I bought a baby scale from Kmart, which is like our shop for everything. And I've got a note on my phone. I was weighing her almost every 24 hours And it was, it was not okay for my mental health. And I would do a big feed and be like, "Okay, let's try and like weigh her now and see, you know, if that's given her a bit more or..."

Yeah, it really wasn't good. But she wasn't, she was slow to gain weight, but that never fixed itself even when she was having heaps of EBM. So she is small, and she's like a slim build. And with my second baby, like they just are small babies, but the weight loss, yeah. So at that time she lost the weight. I called a midwife from work who is this goddess midwife, just wise woman, and she's a lactation consultant as well.

And I don't know why I didn't call her earlier. I think I just didn't wanna be a burden on her or... Called her. She came to my house. She turned off all the lights, and she watched the feed, and she kind of just calmed me down a little bit. I think she ran the bath and said, "Get in the bath and have a breastfeed there."

And, um, but at the point where she started losing weight, she said, "I think you need to, to give some top-ups." And so we started giving top-ups pretty much a couple of days after that tongue and lip tie release, and that was kind of the beginning of the end. She decided she didn't want me 'cause I was too hard to figure out.

Aw. And she only wanted the bottle, so- 

[00:27:25] Emma Pickett: So even with the shield, she wasn't... So you're still with the shield at this point. She isn't interested in the shield? Yeah, still 

[00:27:30] Jessica: with the shield. It was a very slow and painful death of breastfeeding. She, yeah, she started getting really fussy. We went to a cranio osteopath because that was a recommendation from someone.

That didn't help. Then I went to a different lactation consultant. That didn't help. Then I was going to a chiropractor to get her like palate released and, and things two or three times a week. I was driving 45, 50 minutes with my firstborn child, who screamed every car trip, to this chiropractor in the hopes, I remember every appointment just going and crying that it, it wasn't helping or working.

Oh, just- But I didn't quite know what else to do. 

[00:28:10] Emma Pickett: I don't think I have an understanding of what a chiropractor does in a baby context. I'm very familiar with osteopaths with babies- Yeah ... and even cranial sacral therapists who are kind of osteopath-ish, but I don't understand what a chiropractor does. Help me.

[00:28:25] Jessica: It seemed, in terms of watching the appointment, seemed very similar to what the cranio osteopath did. They're kind of just releasing, I don't know, tension. It looks like they're not doing much at all, to be honest. Although she did each time try and like broaden out the palate, I suppose, with her thumb Saying like her palate was really high and really narrow, so that probably was an impact on the breastfeeding.

Yeah. 

[00:28:52] Emma Pickett: That's a tough combination, an inverted nipple- Mm ... high palate, tongue tie, engorgement. You, you're ticking every box for making breastfeeding- Yeah ... quite challenging here. This is tough. 

[00:29:03] Jessica: So yeah, that was a lot of appointments, and she was just really nice. I think I kept going to her 'cause I just really felt supported by her.

She was a midwife previously in her career. But yeah, nothing was quite working. I went, um- Saw an online lactation consultant as well, who I sobbed through that appointment. The first thing she said was, "You're, you know, you're a midwife. Oh, well, the problem with midwives is", and then she went on this big rant about everything we do wrong.

Oh. And I was holding my baby, you know. As, as I was teaching every woman, you know, grab ahold of your breast, hold behind their shoulders and shove them on, nose, nipple, blah, blah. And she's like, "So why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? That's not okay. You're being very forceful with your baby."

Anyway, I just sobbed the whole appointment. She would not let up. Uh, just like this was a teaching opportunity for her and not a woman who was incredibly upset with what was happening. So that was a real low point. Oh, I'm so sorry. That 

[00:29:59] Emma Pickett: sucks. Can we get her address and send her some de- a dead fish or something?

Yeah. Just kidding. Yes. Yeah, I'm being very unprofessional saying that. Uh, it's, it's, it's really sad to hear that that was your experience, 'cause that is not okay. That person had their own baggage- Mm ... and they were not listening to you and centering to you, 'cause that is, that is, that is not okay. Uh, and actually, you know what?

The holding behind the shoulders thing and the smushing the baby on the breast, sometimes that works really well. Um, you know, the idea- Yeah ... that there's only one way to breastfeed and, you know, w- everyone has got to do it this one particular way. It's not always gonna be baby-led positioning. Sometimes w- with inverted nipples- Mm

and, and, you know, babies with high palates, a bit of a smush to get a few more millimeters of breast tissue in their mouth can be, can be really effective. Mm. Um, so I, I, you know, just with my p- hat, hat on, I don't want you to think that what you're doing sounds like it's necessarily a problem, 'cause it, that works really well with the anatomy struggles that you're talking about.

Yeah. So you talked about a slow death, which is a very powerful piece of language to use when you talk- Mm ... about the end of breastfeeding. Do you remember a day when you thought, "I'm not even gonna try and latch her on anymore. We're done"? 

[00:31:03] Jessica: Oh, yeah. I mean, it was, I tried for four months of lots of crying, crying every spare second I had, just about the breastfeeding.

I, I called PANDA, which is like our, um, perinatal anxiety and depression hotline, um, and kinda got into contact with them, 'cause I was having some really dark thoughts of, "I don't wanna feed this baby anymore. If she doesn't wanna breastfeed, then I don't, like sh- I don't wanna feed her. I want a new baby. I wanna start again."

Um, yeah, just really, like, very upset. I remember going to a moms' and babies' yoga class with my best friend, who was breastfeeding beautifully, and just absolutely hating it, and not, couldn't stand to look at her breastfeeding her baby, and Would go out and she wouldn't go on, or there was just so many times where she would just scream at me and push me away and yeah.

Then I tried the approach of like, you know, surrendering and letting go, and so I eased off more because I could tell I was just so tight holding her and just, like, really wanted this so badly. Thought, like, if I let it go and I give her a few bottles, then I can, like, calm down. But then she just didn't want the breast at all after she had, started having more bottles.

The first time my husband gave her a bottle was so emotional, and the first time I gave her a bottle was so emotional. It was just like, yeah. I know my, my friend at the three-month mark had her baby, and she actually had hypoplasia, so, so didn't have enough of a milk supply, and just so easily gave up breastfeeding.

Was like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I can't breastfeed. That's fine." Opened a tin of formula and away she went. And I was so jealous of how she could just let that go, 'cause here I was, like, an absolute mess of depression and grief at this journey that wasn't working. Just, yeah, really, um, so... It was so inherent to my mothering journey.

If I couldn't get this, then I, I was nothing as a mother 

[00:33:12] Emma Pickett: Jessica, you describe that so powerfully. Um, and I think anyone who's been in that space will really appreciate the way you just described that experience. Really, really, really tough. And, and you mentioned that you w- were expressing and giving EBM.

Mm. At what point did formula start to be used? 

[00:33:28] Jessica: I didn't use any formula. Um, I couldn't. I could not bring myself to open a tin. I don't know why. I think formula's a great option for women like me who are losing their minds, going to the psychologist and, and couldn't even get out a sentence 'cause I was so upset with what was happening, and thinking dark thoughts about my baby and my mothering and all of that.

Like, formula's fabulous, and I just couldn't bring myself to open a tin. So I was pumping, and by the end, my camera roll is just full of every tiny little breastfeeding moment I could get. I would take a photo thinking this was gonna be my last one, and at the kinda four-month mark, it was. I did a, a big, long Instagram post on World Breastfeeding Week talking about the grief of my journey and everything that was involved, and that was kind of a letting go of my journey.

And then I felt like I need to stop this now because I'm en- enjoying nothing about mothering. And once I stopped, the anxiety around the feeding was gone. The like, "I have to be home at this time because she needs to be drowsy to get on the breast, and I've gotta try these feeds at night," and all of that left, which was great, but the grief kind of carried on and was pretty strong for a long time.

Couldn't watch other women breastfeed and things like that, and going back to work even a year later was really nervous about what that would be like. 

[00:34:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Wow.

I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending.

It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books, and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

So, uh, just to state the blooming obvious, you are exclusively breast milk feeding her, but you're still- Yeah ... feeling that overwhelming sense of, "I'm not doing it right. This is not what I should be doing. This is-" Mm. I ha- you know, I... So, so when we say s- obviously there are lots of people exclusively breastfeeding who, um, you know, never, ever pump and give formula and don't think anything of it, and then there are people who are exclusively pumping who, who, who only give breast milk and are incredibly, incredibly proud of their achievement, and feel so, so rightly proud that they can exclusively breast milk feed their child.

But for you, it was the, the physical act of breastfeeding was very, very significant- Mm ... to you, and exclusive pumping didn't resolve any of those feelings of, of guilt or- 

[00:37:52] Jessica: Mm. I wanted to be the woman who breastfed in public 24/7 to show women how to breastfeed their babies, or, like, that breastfeeding was normal.

I wanted to be, yeah, I just wanted to be breastfeeding everywhere. That was, like, all through y- young womanhood and, and pregnancy was like, "I'm gonna breastfeed in public, and I'm gonna show women that breastfeeding is normal and epic and awesome." So when I couldn't do that, that was another kind of layer of the sadness In probably a couple months after I stopped breastfeeding, the pride in the pumping came in, but at that time it was just too sad.

But then I got to be the woman pumping in public, and so that felt really cool actually, to bring my little Spectra around everywhere, and put on my double pump in the middle of a shopping center, and- 

[00:38:43] Emma Pickett: I love how you call it your, your little Spectra. Your little Spectra- ... which is not little at all. I mean, that's pretty- No

that's pretty impressive to be that person. I bet that w- you would've made some core memories for some people. Um, and modeling that is so valuable and important. Um, but I don't mean- Yeah. So that felt cool ... I don't mean to dis- I don't mean to dismiss your grief, and I certainly don't mean to imply that, "Hey lady, why have you got grief?

You should be thrilled about the fact you're exclusively pumping." Hmm. I don't want to be coming across like that at all. But I'm just aware how breastfeeding grief is so, so individual, and no one gets to tell anyone else, you know, what they should- Hmm ... be happy about. It's like telling someone, "Oh, you sh- you're not allowed to be sad about your birth because you've g- got a healthy baby."

It's, it's an equivalent conversation. You, you said earlier that you were obviously having some dark times with your mental health, and that you were feeling resentful of feeding her. Did you get some professional help to help you work through that? Did you get to a place where bottle feeding started to feel like a connection?

[00:39:36] Jessica: Yeah, I was seeing my psychologist, um, kind of booked in with her at, uh, after I'd touched base with the phone counselor, and then was seeing her quite regularly until the, like, crying all the time about it eased off. And that was probably, like, the six, seven month mark I stopped seeing that psychologist.

Okay. What was the second part of that question? 

[00:40:00] Emma Pickett: Oh, no, I was just t- I, I was just asking about, um, did bottle feeding start to become a connection? Oh, yes, yes. Did it start to feel positive? 

[00:40:07] Jessica: Um, yeah It was always not as good. I always... There was always a layer of sadness with every bottle feed, but it just started to become the normal, I suppose.

But with pumping comes, I was always one feed ahead in the fridge, and that was stressful if, you know, suddenly she was a bit hungrier, so that one feed ahead was gone, or navigating going on holidays and thinking, "How much of my freezer stash do I need to take?" All of the washing up. Like, I was doing it third hourly, pumping maybe 1.5 liters a day.

Whoa. Um. 

[00:40:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:40:48] Jessica: Yeah. 

[00:40:49] Emma Pickett: That's, uh, for any- So my supply 

[00:40:50] Jessica: was really 

[00:40:51] Emma Pickett: So for anyone who doesn't know, that's almost pretty much double what a baby would be taking at this- Yeah ... at this point. So nothing- Yeah ... nothing wrong with your milk supply, that's for darn sure. Um. No. 

[00:41:01] Jessica: Um, it was very low in fat, and that really always annoyed me, because she was drinking maybe a liter a day, and she was still really thin, and I had always wanted a really chunky, rolly baby, so that always played on my mind.

Is there something wrong with my milk, or, you know, why isn't she getting really chunky having all this milk? Or, yeah. Just really, like, and, and really disappointed in my body that it really failed me. And the thing about the milk, like, I always referred to my milk as skim milk. I'm like, "Oh, you've got full, full cream milk."

And I'm like, now, that's so self-deprecating to myself. Like, I was doing this really epic thing, and just so hard on my body- 

[00:41:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:41:44] Jessica: even though it was achieving so much. 

[00:41:46] Emma Pickett: It was ch- achieving a huge amount. I suspect that that was- Mm ... probably to do with the response to the pump, and if you have overproduction, you're probably producing very quickly a full bottle that's not necessarily getting to the fattier part of the milk because- Mm

you're, you're producing so quickly, and you let down so quick. Um, so it may have been, you know, let's unhelpfully, retrospectively analyze this, but it might have been actually managing your milk supply, and reducing your production a little bit may have meant higher fat content, and, and more fat, fat transfer for her.

But I don't want to necessarily rewrite, rewrite history. 

[00:42:20] Jessica: Yeah, 'cause at that point, I was so anxious about getting enough, so I wanted more and more to know that I had a supply in the freezer, and I think it was, like, 10 months, nine months, we went away on holidays, and my mom so beautifully came over to our house and cleaned our house for us.

I don't know why she opened the freezer, but she did No And two days later she popped back- 

[00:42:45] Emma Pickett: Oh, no ... and she'd left the freezer 

[00:42:46] Jessica: open. 

[00:42:47] Emma Pickett: Oh, no. And it was like 40 liters. 

[00:42:48] Jessica: Oh, 

[00:42:49] Emma Pickett: Jessica, 

[00:42:49] Jessica: no. 40 liters. Yeah, 40 liters 

[00:42:52] Emma Pickett: of milk. Oh, she must have been devastated- Yeah ... and felt terrible. That- Yeah ... like how you felt. She called me 

[00:42:57] Jessica: sobbing.

Oh. She called me sobbing, 'cause I had a chest freezer with more of a supply, but that was kind of, yeah, 40 liters, and she called me sobbing and I was sobbing and, 'cause that was my... At that point I was pretty done with pumping, and that was the light at the end of the tunnel of I can keep breastfeeding her until she's over one or, you know, maybe two, and I lost that and it meant that I'd ha- I'd have to keep pumping for longer to get it back.

Yeah. Pumping, it's so not straightforward. It is such a sacrificial thing as a mum to do. It- it's crazy. It, breastfeeding regard- feeding your baby is hard work however you do it, but pumping is a whole different ballgame. And I used to wake up in the night having fallen asleep mid-pump, the bottle's overflowing and I'm saturated and I, you know, it was, it was a lot.

[00:43:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. And, and there's no one saying, "Come on, love, what you doing? Let's, let's get some formula. Come on." Is anyone in your life saying that to you? 

[00:43:54] Jessica: Oh, gosh. I think they'd seen how upset I was about the whole thing earlier That no, they wouldn't have touched it. I think there was a few comments maybe about like, uh, when are you- when do you think you'll stop or, but I was like, "I need to get to one."

I don't know. I'd had in my head, I'd never even contemplated that you could pump long term, to be honest, even as a midwife. And went onto a Australian breast- uh, Australian pumping Facebook page, and they were like, "I've been pumping for two years." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you can pump for a long time?

Okay, I'm gonna do that." And I'd set the goal of one year, and on her first birthday, the night of her first birthday, I did my last pump. I'd kind of spent a month and a half slowing down, pumping every six or eight hours. Did my last pump on her birthday, and that felt really cool. I did this big- 

[00:44:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:44:42] Jessica: this photo with the big one balloon and was really triumphant in that, and threw my Spectra off the balcony.

Fantastic. Yeah. I never wanted to see it again. 

[00:44:53] Emma Pickett: Did it land on grass? Did it land on concrete? 

[00:44:57] Jessica: It didn't break, unfortunately. Very upsetting. Listen, 

[00:44:59] Emma Pickett: Spec- if anyone's listening here from Spectra, Spectra's a code- Yeah ... code compliant. We have no problem with Spectra. But the, the psychology of this w- was very important.

Oh. I can, I can completely relate to that. Seriously. I've suddenly got a vision of Dead Poets Society, where he chucks his writing set off the balcony. That release of- Yeah ... saying goodbye to an object is, is very cathartic- Yeah ... I'm imagining. Gosh, you had such a year, didn't you, Jessica? What a rollercoaster of emotions and achievements and- Mm

and giving yourself a really tough time. Um, and, and really being hard on yourself. Yeah. You talked about your body- Yeah ... failing, but oh my God, that's, that's not your body failing, it's some- it's a quirk of anatomy. It's, it's- Mm ... you know, it's not like you signed the box to say, "Can I request, you know, these nipples and this baby's anatomy, please?"

Um, and I know that if you were talking to a woman you supported, you would be saying, "I want you to reflect on where this feeling of failure is coming from." But it's not logical, is it? This is not, these aren't- No ... these feelings aren't logical. 

[00:45:55] Jessica: No. No. And what an epic thing to have gone through now as a midwife, the empathy I have for women on their breastfeeding journeys, and the understanding I have for some women of how emotional it can be and how tricky it is, and yeah.

So I'm a m- I'm a far better midwife now for all that I went through. 

[00:46:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I bet. Yeah. I just wanna ask you a very practical question. When you, when you sort of say, "Okay, she's not latching. I need to say goodbye to this idea of practical breastfeeding at the breast. It's not happening- Mm ... I'm gonna move to pumping."

How do you stop yourself at kind of, you know, 2:00 in the morning thinking, "Oh, maybe I'll just try and latch on one more time. Maybe, maybe she's old enough now. Maybe if I just have one more go." Do you manage to kind of process and let go of that, or do you always have that little bit of hope? 

[00:46:44] Jessica: Oh yeah, I tried all the time.

I think at like six months, seven months I was still like, "Eh, do you wanna go? Here, here's the breast." Like, but yeah, it was never gonna happen. Yeah, I always held out hope a little bit, and so I think that when it was finally the end and I can't ... You know, it's obviously not gonna work. And I'd heard stories of, you know, one of the lactation consultants that I'd seen said like, "Oh, her baby was bottle-fed for six weeks, and then she got back onto the breast", and I was like, "Okay, so maybe that can happen to me."

But my daughter is so fiery and so opinionated. She is not a pudding baby at all, and there was so much more at play, right? Her palate and my nipples, but m- I think mostly it was her personality of being like, "Piss off. I don't want- ... your breast anywhere near my face." So I couldn't, I couldn't work with that.

I couldn't do anything about it. 

[00:47:35] Emma Pickett: Oh, you have a Vada. A cervical chick- I do ... who has a strong opinion. That's right. 

[00:47:40] Jessica: She is fiery as, yeah. I asked for it. I brought it upon myself, and then gorgeous little Olive came along who was much more gentle. 

[00:47:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So let's, let's briefly talk about Olive, 'cause I, w- um, the, I really appreciate you sharing- Mm

Vada's journey, and I'm wondering how it feels to be pregnant again and thinking, "Oh my God, I'm going through this again. Breastfeeding's coming." Mm. Uh, what happens if it- Mm ... doesn't work out again? How am I gonna repeat that? I mean, w- how do you feel when you're pregnant when you, when you've had that previous sort of breastfeeding grief?

[00:48:08] Jessica: I was completely shut off. All I could think was it has to work, and I don't wanna think about any other options. And my husband, probably four or five times in the pregnancy brought up like, "Okay, so but do we need to talk about if it doesn't work, or, you know, like how are you gonna feel?" 'Cause obviously he was in the midst of all those dark times too, wondering why his wife was crying all the time.

So but I, yeah, I, it had to work, and I didn't do anything to change the outcomes. I just thought, "I'm gonna try and not complicate it this time." So I didn't h- express as much in the pregnancy, and I just was really intentional with those first few feeds of not overcomplicating it, coming in all guns blazing with the nipple shields, and, and, you know, the aspirators and all of that kinda stuff.

But yeah, I was pretty naive to how the second journey would go, how the first journey affected me mentally. Okay. I, I didn't see it coming, yeah. 

[00:49:04] Emma Pickett: So there's some sort of self-protection stuff going on here, kind of not even- Mm ... allowing yourself to kind of ... Yeah. It's, I don't, I'm not a psychologist and I can't unpick everything you're going through, but it sounds as though there was some unprocessed stuff here potentially.

[00:49:19] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. Um, absolutely. And it all came out, don't you worry. It came out. 

[00:49:26] Emma Pickett: So tell us about Olive. Tell us about her birth and her early, early breastfeeding. 

[00:49:30] Jessica: So I chose to have another home birth, um, which was a tricky decision because of, you know, what needed to happen after the last birth. But I really wanted that time in my own bed tucked up at home and, and like with the breastfeeding, I really wanted to be an example to women in Australia.

It's really uncommon to have a home birth. It's very counter-cultural, and I thought me having a hospital birth for my second is gonna do more damage to, to the cause I was trying to kind of progress. Anyway, so I chose to have another home birth, but was quite nervous about it. But it all went really beautifully.

And she was born in the water, came up onto my chest, and maybe an hour later we were in our bed, and she latched on my left side, which was more of a flat nipple, but actually after the year of pumping had come out quite significantly. So I would say my inverted nipple after a year of pumping was flat now, and my flat side was now kind of a, a decent-ish nipple.

Quite small, but I'll take it. It was something. Um, and she latched onto that side, and then actually latched onto the flatter side in underarm kind of hold, and that was, like, epic, epic moment. Um, and then the next couple of days were good until my milk came in, and then it wasn't letting down. I could tell she just wasn't swallowing, but the milk was there.

I could feel it, but sh- it just wasn't coming. I got quite anxious about it, and my midwife said, "Just give it a day. It will happen." So I kind of kept trying, and she was a bit frustrated and, but was feeding a little bit, and then maybe after a day it started flowing a bit better. So she was breastfeeding without a shield, which was awesome.

Fantastic. And her day s- yeah, her day six weight was great. It was amazing, I think, actually. She'd, she'd only lost, like, 20 grams or something, and I was, I was like... It was the best thing ever. So at the four-week mark I was like, "Let's weigh her again. I need another confidence boost. It's gonna be great." But her weight gain from there was really slow.

And so I was like, "Oh no, what have I done? I'd told myself I wasn't allowed to weigh this baby, and now I've done it and it's slow." And so that started the spiral into the same things happening again. Oh, actually importantly, day two after birth, I went to a lactation consultant to see, 'cause I thought the problem with last time was the release at eight weeks, the tongue tie release at eight weeks meant she had to figure out a whole new way of doing things.

So I'm gonna get the tongue tie released early. So we went day two, drove an hour to this lactation consultant who's also a private home birthing midwife, so I thought great combo. She released the tongue tie with the scissors and I thought, "Okay, that's good. That's helped." And then kept going, slow weight gain at four to five weeks.

Started to spiral a little bit, but held it relatively together. Then at six weeks I went back to that lactation consultant and said, "Can you please just watch the feed and tell me it's okay? I need you to look at the latch and look at the rhythm and listen to the swallows and just tell me it's okay, 'cause I can't figure it out for myself 'cause I think it's not okay And she said, "Yeah, no problem.

Oh, hang on." And she had a quick look at the baby's mouth. She said, "Oh, that tongue tie's reformed. Let me just release that." And she put her thumb in and released the tongue tie, like tore it open again. Ooh, 

[00:52:56] Emma Pickett: okay. Crikey. And I went, "Oh gosh". Not something I hear 

[00:52:59] Jessica: very often. Yeah. I said, "Hang on. Isn't that gonna affect the way she's now using her mouth?"

And she's like, "Oh, no, no, she'll be fine. Put her on, put her on." She would not go on. She was hysterical, and I could not get her on. And probably like 10 hours I couldn't get her on, and she was just so upset, and I didn't sleep for 70... Well, probably 48 hours after that. Oh, no. Just- I couldn't sleep. Panic attacks.

I've done this again. I've done this to my baby again. The same thing has happened. We're at six weeks, and she can't use her mouth anymore. Like, that was horrific. So at the, the next morning or the day after that, I was like, "I can't do this. I need to give her a bottle. I can't breastfeed." And tried to give her a bottle and she wouldn't take it.

Oh my goodness. Oh, God. So it was like, okay, fine, I guess we're breastfeeding. But I had to pace back and forth to feed her. I wouldn't get let downs unless I was moving. I was so anxious every feed that she wasn't gonna go on, or if she was slightly grumpy, or if we were out, she wasn't gonna breastfeed. So for, I think it was like four or five months, I was pacing back and forth while I fed.

Wow. I couldn't sit down and breastfeed. So you're holding 

[00:54:14] Emma Pickett: her and holding her weight- Yeah ... in your arms. Were you using anything like a sling or, or anything to hold her? 

[00:54:20] Jessica: No, I was just holding her, but then eventually she needed that too. So when I try, when I was like, "Okay, I think I can sit down now," she's like, "No, you feed me standing up walking."

So, okay. So did that for a while, a long time. At night as well? Night, night feeds too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oof. I would get up and pace for my own anxiety. Yeah, so started having panic attacks, flashbacks. Went back to my psychologist and was like, "Hey, so you know that thing I stopped seeing you for and didn't deal with?

That's come back in full force now." And she'd kind of looked at my symptoms and said, "You have PTSD from the last time." And I was having really specific flashbacks of certain points, certain moments in that journey with Vada- Okay ... of feeling real rejection and things. So we did something called EMDR, which is like trauma counseling.

It's a bit, it feels a bit woo-woo, but it's not. That you kind of- No ... track your- Not, not 

[00:55:10] Emma Pickett: woo- ... track their finger. Not woo-woo at all. In fact, I did an episode- Yeah ... with a lovely psychologist- Yeah, yeah. I listened to that ... who specializes in that, in this. Yeah. So particularly for trauma 

[00:55:20] Jessica: Yes. Did that and started on anxiety medication, and that stopped the panic attacks quite quickly.

[00:55:27] Emma Pickett: So for anyone who doesn't know about EMDR and, and hasn't listened to the episode that we're talking about, t- just give us a quick summary of, of what you're actually doing in that experience. 

[00:55:36] Jessica: So you are sitting really close to the psychologist, and she had me kind of fixating on a moment. So for me, it was in my bed one night where she was screaming and pushing away from me that I kept having flashbacks to.

And you have to think really specifically about that moment, so it's quite intense to think back to your trauma so vividly. And then You kind of are following her finger as you think about that, and following trains of thought, and she kind of over time guided me to try and rewrite that memory. And ultimately what it does is kind of blurs that memory for you, and takes away the kind of physical impact of that memory, and the trauma.

So that's ki- how... It kinda makes the, the memory blurry where it was quite vivid before. So it's really good- Mm ... for trauma in that respect, but it's very intense to do. 

[00:56:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so uh, the person that I spoke to for that episode was Dr. Harriet Holroyd, who is the lactation psychologist on Instagram, and she has a practice where she d- where it has a lot of focus on breastfeeding grief and, and really thinks that EMDR can absolutely...

So eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, um, is what we're talking- Mm ... about, and it can absolutely help with, with breastfeeding grief. And you felt it helped? It just, it softened some of those feelings- Yes ... from Veda's journey. 

[00:56:50] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. And whether it was the medication at the same time, my psychologist said like, "Let's hit it with everything 'cause you're really not functioning."

I was like, "Yeah, great. Give my brain a bit of a rest." And so that did help the, like, really big response, but it was still quite a long time before I could settle into the feeding. And at the three-month mark I went to a wedding, and I didn't have my pillows, and I couldn't feed underarm on my right side, which is the only way she would feed on that side, um, the inverted side.

And she wouldn't feed the whole wedding. My left I felt was empty, and she wouldn't go on the right. It was really full and engorged. And so at the three-month mark I said, "That's it. I'm not feeding on the right anymore. It's too much stress, and it's got the, the conditions have to be perfect for her to go on that side, and I don't have time for that.

I have a two-year-old." So over a couple of days, pumped after each feed on my left to kind of increase my supply on my left, and weaned off my right. And so from three months, pumped just on the one side until now, really. She's still pumping on that side. 

[00:57:53] Emma Pickett: So uni-boobing as a technique is often what people fall into naturally, but it, I, I love the way that you, you troubleshooted that and said, "No, no, no.

This is, this is about managing my mental health as much as anything. I need to, I need breastfeeding- Yeah ... to be more straightforward, and this is what I'm gonna need to do," which is very, very wise. And, and because you've had that history of producing a heck of a lot of milk, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't single-sided feed, and you, and it sounds like you did.

Very impressive organization. 

[00:58:22] Jessica: I had to fall back on, fall back on the confidence of, I know I make enough milk, know I make enough milk. I know I make enough milk. Because that left side was pumping more than enough for Veda each pump, so I knew it could, it had the capacity to do that. 

[00:58:37] Emma Pickett: That helped So that f- that fear of rejection and that worrying about is this gonna be the feed where she's never gonna feed again, did that hang over you for a while?

Did that stay with you? D- is that something that you ever let go of? 

[00:58:52] Jessica: I think nine months I kind of settled into the feeding a bit and thought, "Okay, I think it's not gonna stop suddenly one night." And then at the one-year mark, I thought, "Okay, I've reached, you know, my halfway goal, so it's okay if it stops."

But it never Yeah, I never really settled into it. I always thought it was gonna be taken away for some reason or another. 

[00:59:15] Emma Pickett: And how long did, did Olive breastfeed for? Did? She's still going. Yay. That's the, that's the ending I like to hear. So she's- So you are a champion uni-boober. That's kind of- Mm ... you know, coming on for two years of uni-boobing.

Are you very, very lopsided, out of curiosity? 'Cause some people bother- are bothered about that- Oh, man ... 

[00:59:34] Jessica: so they won't. Yeah. It's been two, almost two and a half years now of uni-boobing, and I am so lopsided. My nipple is just getting longer and longer, and the other one is just shriveling up further inside me.

So, like, the nipples are so different, but the, yeah, the boobs are really different now. Which, like, I kind of love, and I love that this... You know, I let my right side go. I said like, "Okay, you've done your time. Thank you so much for serving us." Thanks for your service, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for your service and I'm gonna, you know, participation award and off you pop.

I'm done with you now. And so that felt really nice actually, to be like, I really like, you know, my inverted nipple side now. It's kind of, yeah, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of- It did its, did its best ... definitely my, my 

[01:00:15] Emma Pickett: left side. 

[01:00:16] Jessica: But yeah, it did, it really did its best. It tried. 

[01:00:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, just to state the flipping obvious, a ton of people are lopsided whether or not they ever breastfeed, 'cause lopsided is- Mm

normal, normal for women. Um, and it's also the case that when you do end breastfeeding, the chances are you're gonna, you know, become more evenly sized anyway, if that matters to you. Um, but you know, the only reason I mention it is because some people are worried about that. And yes, it's going to happen if you uni-boob.

It will happen. Yes. But that doesn't, doesn't mean it, it's not worth it. So what's a typical 24 hours for Olive's feeding patterns at the moment? 

[01:00:44] Jessica: So I've tried to w- night wean a couple of times. We did three weeks stint where I just swapped rooms with my husband, so he slept with Olive and I slept with my eldest, Vada.

And that worked, until we moved house three weeks later and suddenly she had access to me again because she slept in her own room and she can walk with her little legs into my room. And then it was done. She was feeding four or five times a night again, and this was just after 2:00. And then usually around ovulation, I have a little moment where I'm like, "Get off me.

I'm so done with this." Yeah. "I can't stand it anymore." And so I tried again night weaning maybe a month or so after that, and I did seven nights. I persevered with her screaming. The first night was, like, four hours. The second night was three and a half hours. The next night after that was another four hours, and she didn't, she never relaxed into it.

I, I listened to your podcast before I started it, the weaning your booby monster, 'cause I thought like, "I'm ready to wean." Put it in my ears, and 30 seconds in I was sobbing. The whole way through that episode I just cried and cried and cried, and I thought when it finished, I'm like, "I don't think I'm ready to wean."

Aw. Well, I'm glad it served that purpose. I think there's something you... It really did, and- And I loved, you said like in the first couple of lines of like, "Not every feed is magical and mystical." And that was a real, oh, that r- I felt so heard by that because I was like, I, with Vada, I had to breastfeed 'cause it was this magical and mystical thing, and now I'm breastfeeding this toddler for two years, and I'm like, "Actually, sometimes it sucks."

[01:02:29] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[01:02:30] Jessica: Sometimes it's not fabulous, and sometimes I feel trapped, and, you know, it's against my will and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Sometimes it's magical and mystical, but not all the time. So that felt really good. But hearing, like, what the actual reality of weaning a toddler is, and then just contemplating letting this journey go was too sad.

So I thought, okay, I'm not ready to wean. I'm gonna try night weaning. I gave it seven days, and by the end, the only way she would go back to sleep was standing on the balcony and listening to the frogs outside, and it was freezing cold. And I thought, "This is stupid. I could be lying in bed asleep while she feeds next to me, but instead I'm standing on a balcony listening to frogs, so I'm gonna go back to breastfeeding please."

[01:03:12] Emma Pickett: Or buy one of those white noise machines that has frogs as one of the channels. Yeah. 'Cause you can get the rainforest and the frog option. Okay. So, so she was not happy with another soothing method. She's not having a bar of it. You obviously... You didn't. I love that she's not having a bar of it. I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing I know what that means.

Yeah. Another great Aussie expression. So she was, yeah, not s- not soothing in another way, and you were not finding that other method. No. And it just didn't feel- No ... worth it. So you're back to breastfeeding at night for now? Well, it's just so... 

[01:03:38] Jessica: Yeah, still breastfeeding, maybe s- yeah, she comes in at maybe midnight or so, and then feeds three-ish times, has a long one in the morning.

But we worked on, from your podcast, like booby manners of like how she approaches the breast and, you know, at that point she was like pulling down and pulling up and anywhere, anytime. So I've gotten better at saying, you know, like, "Not right now," or, "When we get home," or, "Excuse me, how do you ask for booby?"

And she says like, "Can I have some booby please, Mom?" Instead of just pulling at my top, and so that feels a little bit more like I'm in control of what's happening. Yeah. 

[01:04:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:04:12] Jessica: That feels a bit nicer now. So yeah, I'm happy to keep going for a bit longer, but y- e- every time I ovulate, I change my mind and, you know, we'll see.

So common. We'll see how long it goes for. That is so, so, so common. Yeah. 

[01:04:23] Emma Pickett: If this is a Hollywood movie, Jessica, you've healed now from Olive. Olive's breastfeeding journey has healed you, and your breastfeeding grief- Mm ... is all resolved, and it's all lovely and flowers and bluebirds and wonderfulness. I'm guessing that's not, it's not quite that simple.

Do you, do you feel healed? How do you feel when you think about breastfeeding? 

[01:04:42] Jessica: I don't feel healed from Vada's journey. Like, going back in preparation for this, looking at those photos, so much emotion still comes up. But I feel healed in that I have a successful breastfeeding journey I guess I try just not to think about, I think about the pride and the pumping and all of the awesomeness that came from that.

How, you know, I changed as a midwife and what I achieved and, but the grief of not being able to do that with her still hurts. But I have breastfed, so I feel better about it. 

[01:05:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:05:20] Jessica: Which is so bizarre. I still don't, I don't understand why this is such a big thing for me Yeah. But anyway, that's where I'm at.

I feel, yeah, I'm happy that I've gotten to do that with a toddler. I just wanted to breastfeed, like, a bigger baby and, and be able to achieve that, and yeah, the two-year mark was pretty awesome. 

[01:05:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Uh, for sure. And now here you are talking to people all around the world. I have listeners- Mm ... in all sorts of teeny-weeny countries all around the world hearing your story and hearing...

being inspired by your story and, and hearing your strength and, and that is something t- that is very, very special. One of the things that I sometimes wonder about with people in your situation is when you see Vada not having been an breastfed toddler, does that bring up- Mm ... a new layer of, of grief? You know, y- she didn't get to be the breastfeeding two-year-old.

I just wonder whether that f- it feels kind of, you know, and it, there's an injustice about it that she didn't get... Or, or is there a sense where, Vada, my love, it was your decision. You, you chose. You're the one that- Oh, yeah ... you didn't latch on. It's not my call. Um, w- where are you when you kind of process that kind of difference in their two journeys?

[01:06:25] Jessica: You can't say I didn't try, so- For sure ... yeah, it's the thing, like, this is our new girlfriend. And, and she did get breast milk until she was 16 months, so she was fed to sleep with a bottle every feed until she was 16 months, so that was pretty cool. Um- Very cool ... oh, here sh- here she is crying now. Yeah, she can come in.

Yeah, bring her in. I'm just gonna, gonna do some breastfeeding right here right now- Please, please do ... live on the podcast. As, 

[01:06:51] Emma Pickett: as we finish up, let's, let's see the- ... main character. It was, yeah, I don't do YouTube because I don't ever think we wanna be talking to people in the very, very vulnerable time of their lives on, on YouTube.

Um, 'cause I talk to so many people who are experiencing big, big feelings. Come on, Ollie. Uh, but if there was YouTube, you would be seeing a very dinky little lovely person approaching, ready to have a breastfeed. Mm-hmm. Um. 

[01:07:12] Jessica: Yeah, well, she's very tired. I don't know why she's not... Come here, Ollie. Come have some booby.

Oh, darling. You're very sad. 

[01:07:20] Emma Pickett: Come here. Hello, Olive. We've just been talking about you in, in the loveliest way possible. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she's happy. She's happy. She's happy now. 

[01:07:29] Jessica: Why was Ollie sad? I'm still talking on the phone, baby girl. Yeah, so I'm really proud of how I fed both my babies, and it feels cool now to have experienced it all.

Literally. Yeah, you have 

[01:07:42] Emma Pickett: ticked every box. I mean, as a midwife- Yeah ... you've had the NG tube. You've had the shields. You've had, you've had the tongue-tie procedure. You've had a lip tie. You've, I mean, you've done the whole shebang. There's not much you haven't ticked, so it must make you the most- Yeah

awesome, awesome midwife. Um, and you do, you do antenatal classes. You teach antenatal classes, I understand. 

[01:08:01] Jessica: Mom, who are you talking to? Yeah. Now, since having Olive, I just started my own business with my best friend who's a doula, and we teach birth classes. And I do a whole chunk of time on breastfeeding and making sure women know that they might need support.

And if things get tricky at six weeks, then double down on the support. Get your husband back from work. You, like, you might need them there. Like, be really open and honest about how you're going with your journey. It might be hard in the first few days. It might be super straightforward. I really just make sure that they feel really supported about the breastfeeding- Yeah

and, and the emotions that come with it. But I know that everyone is so different. And like my best friend Kat, who I talked about earlier, just switched to formula and it was no drama. So she does the birth classes with me, and it's really nice to have that balance of like, we've both fed our babies in different ways, and look how epic we are.

We're both- Mm-hmm ... awesome and we're just making it work. And yeah, so that's really cool. We're called Cub and Kin, and um- Cool, cool ... yeah, we've just, we've got a very embarrassing Instagram account with lots of very embarrassing videos. 

[01:09:05] Emma Pickett: Oh, okay. Well, it sounds like we need to go and investigate that. Yeah, I'll, I'll put, I'll put your Instagram tag in the show notes.

Right. I'm gonna let you go and be a mom, um, 'cause you've got two little people that need you. Thank you so much for your time today, Jessica. I really, really appreciate it. Um, you are an inspiration, and it's just been such an honor to speak to you. Thank you so much. 

[01:09:23] Jessica: Thank you so much for listening and for talking.

It's been fabulous. And it's so nice to reflect on my journeys now that it's almost at the end- ... to think back, like have this opportunity to think back. Anyway, yeah, they're done. They want their mom back now.

[01:09:43] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.