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Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Ever had something you love dismissed because it’s “just” pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it’s worth talking and thinking about. So do we. We're Tracie and Emily, two sisters who think a lot about a lot of things. From Twilight to Ghostbusters, Harry Potter to the Muppets, and wherever pop culture takes us, come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t: A Pop-Culture Podcast
Mrs. Doubtfire: Deep Thoughts About Cringe Comedy, Feminist Backlash, and Hairy Leg Appreciation
It was a run-by fruiting!
Revisiting the beloved 1993 Robin Williams film Mrs. Doubtfire this week was a reminder to Tracie that you can never go home again. Though she was expecting some early nineties transphobia (and was mostly pleased at its absence), she was horrified to realize the film's plot relied on a kind of men's rights activist feminist backlash, where every woman and girl in the movie represented a different feminist stereotype, from the humorless social worker to the ball-busting workaholic wife. Tracie had also forgotten how much of the film's humor came from cringe comedy, which both Guy sisters find unbearably painful, making the rewatch more of a squirm-fest than she anticipated. There are still some sweet moments and genuine humor underneath the regressive hijinks and heavy makeup--just recognize how deep you might have to dig for them.
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This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
I expected to find some unpleasant transphobia in this film. You know these. However, many years later, 30 years later and there is some, though not as much as I expected. What I did not expect and in fact found is a sort of like anti-feminist backlash undercurrent. It's quiet, it's subtle, but it's there men's rights and, like this, over and over again, subtle lampooning of women who dare have the audacity to expect men to be serious.
Speaker 1:Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture, what others might deem stupid shit? You know matters, you know what's worth talking and thinking about, and so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit. I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1993 film Mrs Doubtfire with my sister, emily Guy-Burken, and with you. Let's dive in. Okay, em, I know you've seen it, we've seen it together, but tell me what furniture is in your mind about Mrs Doubtfire?
Speaker 2:on some of the kind of the humor that I find hard to watch. So like that scene in the end where he's doing the quick change. I hate those kinds of moments. I really hate those kinds of moments. And so much as I love and have always loved Robin Williams, this was not a favorite movie of mine, but the thing there were moments in my head that I found a little bit delightful, sort of. So there's the bus driver who had a crush on him as Mrs Doubtfire and I don't know why I liked that because it was meant to be cringe humor that I don't like Because Robin Williams was a very hairy man and he did not bother shaving his legs as Mrs Doubtfire. And the bus driver sees his legs and you can see that the character is a little concerned, like oh, I've been found out. And the bus driver's like no, it's natural, the way God made you, or something like that. And for some reason I just really liked that. Now, that may be because little Semitic Emily also has very hairy legs.
Speaker 2:I don't know, there was just something about that that I found kind of lovely, even though it's within this sort of transphobic cringe humor moment.
Speaker 2:So that's something that stuck with me. The moment when the Daniel character is about to be found out, because he's taken off his Mrs Doubtfire makeup and puts his face in the cake so it looks like he's got cold cream on, because that's kind of brilliant. So that's in there. And then the one thing that I remember really connecting with, so when our parents divorced in 1982, our mom tells the story of they did not do alimony and they did not do child support, but they decided that they would meet up once a month because we were very little you were six, I was three they would meet up once a month and do an accounting of what they'd each spent, and so mom had taken us to the dentist and the eye doctor and something else, and dad had taken us to the zoo and wild world and something like that and she owed him 20 bucks and she's like we don't need to do this again yeah, and the fact that daniel is the fun parent, and the fact that this movie came out 10 years after.
Speaker 2:Mom had that experience with our dad, who had specifically wanted custody of us on the weekends, in part because he wanted to be the fun dad on the weekends, which is like a systemic thing that happens just is. It's in my head, and I think that is also part of the reason why this has never been one of my favorite movies. So those are the things that are in my head about this movie. So tell me, why are we thinking about this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's funny because, like you, I have a hard time with that sort of cringe humor and there was a lot of it in this movie which wasn't in my memory, but it is so beloved and it's Robin Williams, who we both love and associate with our dad, and I think you know, when we were sort of looking at the list of like 80s and 90s movies, I was like, oh, I want to watch that again. I wonder if it holds up. You know, it was just sort of that like it just sparked something as we were looking at the list. So that's why it surfaced now. It wasn't anything super deep and meaningful, but I just wanted to go back, especially since it is so beloved. I think sometimes the more beloved a piece is, the more interesting our deep thoughts can be, so that's why. So let me give you a quick where I'm going, some postcards from the analysis, and then I'll do what I can for a synopsis. So I expected to find some unpleasant transphobia in this film. You know these. However, many years later, 30 years later, and there is some, though not as much as I expected. What I did not expect and in fact found is a sort of like anti-feminist backlash undercurrent. It's quiet, it's subtle, but it's there. This sort of men's rights and like this over and over again, subtle lampooning of women who dare have the audacity to expect men to be serious, to actually be responsible, or who get resentful when they have to clean up after them, when women have to clean up after men. Like there's this lampooning of these women that I didn't see in the 90s and like I deeply identify with Sally Field's character, miranda, this time around. So that was something that I was surprised to find. You're right, there is a lot of cringe humor. It was actually kind of hard to watch for me. There were moments where I was just like, oh God, it's got to be over soon, it's got to be over soon. So that was something. I think.
Speaker 1:There's also something like weirdly like essentialist about gender. That's an undercurrent of this. Like daniel had to become a woman in order to learn how to clean and cook and like expect the kids to do their homework and like ew, I think, ew, ew. So there's just some stuff in there that's just like unexpectedly ick. This is not where I expected the ick to be. So that'll be interesting for us to talk about a little bit. We can talk about that bus driver moment as well, because I think there's something. There's also something weird in that. I think every woman in the world has been in that moment where some stranger is feeling flirty and you're feeling harassed. And to have that happen to Robin Williams dressed as a woman what are we meant to think and feel about that? It's almost like he can take it better than we can, which is like also ew. So we can get into that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Let me give you a rundown. I'm just going to hit the highlights. We meet Daniel Hillard, robin Williams' character. He is a voice actor. We meet him while he's actually voicing a cartoon about a little bird, like think Tweety Bird, kind of a look, and he ends up half quitting, quitting, half getting fired. When the character is like given a cigarette, like a last cigarette before the cat's gonna eat him, and instead of doing the line which is like oh, that's that's so good about the cigarette, robin williams is like oh, that's disgusting, I would never do that. And so like the voice doesn't match or whatever, and he kind of quits, kind of gets fired because of this refusal to.
Speaker 2:Is it like an ethical thing Because it's for kids? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So we do get an immediate sense that like he cares about what message he's giving to kids.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, we are meant to applaud him for not just reading the line as it stands. He's also, though we see he's like against a hostile audience because he says you know, his producer, who's in the booth with him, is like just read the line and he turns to the sound guys behind some glass and is like what do you guys think you think we should be promoting cigarettes to kids that, like, all three of them are smoking?
Speaker 2:It's hard to remember when that switched over when people smoked on cigarette.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when that switched over.
Speaker 2:When people smoked on cigarette yeah, when that switched over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because people they don't generally now on screen this, though I wonder if it was one of the late holdouts because, like, it made a point and it was all about how cigarette smoking was bad.
Speaker 2:So that may have been intentional, I'm wondering if it's one of those, like that was an easy point to make because at that point it had become clear that that was bad. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think maybe. Yeah, Anyway.
Speaker 1:Anyway, so continue. Okay. So Daniel's, he's in San Francisco, he leaves. It's made clear that, like, if you leave now you're never coming back. So he's just lost his job or quit his job, it's unclear. And then we see him go pick up his kids from school. Three of them there's Lydia, who's 14, chris, who's 12, and Natalie, who goes by, natty, who's five, and they are surprised to see him. They say we didn't think you could get us. And he said well, I got off early. And they go you got fired again, didn't you? And he says something about creative differences and one of them says actors, which is exactly what the guy in the booth had said. Like the same way.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's Chris's birthday. He says we're going to have a party. Lydia stick in the mud. We're already seeing. She says no, you can't. Mom said no because of your report card. Dad says mom won't be home for another four hours. You guys ready to see the wild kingdom?
Speaker 1:So he has brought out a petting zoo. There are children and animals everywhere on this, like it's this big, gorgeous San Francisco home and like the animals on the stoop and in the house and it's like it's pandemonium. So we see the neighbor like very upset, like an old lady neighbor, like very upset about the animals. She calls miranda sally field, who is the wife and mother, who is a high-powered interior designer, like for like high level, like think she's martha stort. She's martha stort, but like for hotels, like for like corporate, like. So she's like a high level designer and she's clearly very successful. She gets a call from this neighbor about this mess, so she comes home. She's got a cake for chris's birthday and she comes in and there's children jumping on her furniture and there's ponies in the living room. She sets down the cake to like figure out what's going on, and an animal starts eating it. She pulls the plug on the music. Daniel is dancing. It's that 90s song Jump up, jump up and jump around.
Speaker 1:So Daniel's dancing with two kids, including their son Chris, on their dining room table. So then we see them arguing and they're cleaning up and you know his reaction initially is like oh, you're home early, I was going to have it all cleaned up, yeah right. So they're cleaning up, they're yelling at one another. She's like, do not make me the monster. You always do this. I have something planned and you have to overdo it and then I end up having to clean up, and then I'm the bad guy. She asks for a divorce. So the next scene we see him, we meet his brother, who's played by Harvey Fierstein, who was in Independence Day. So he's a through line here for these last two episodes oh, no, a couple episodes ago. Anyway, his brother Frank and Frank's boyfriend Jack.
Speaker 2:They do makeup, special effects and makeup like like for film or broadway or something yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're introduced to this character. This is important, fast forward. The court has awarded, at least temporarily, primary custody to Miranda. He gets Saturdays and he's very upset by this. He says I've never been away from my kids for more than a day since they were born, like they're so important to me, please. And the judge is like you don't have a job, you don't have a place to live. I'm giving you 30 days to get on your feet and then we can reassess for more like joint custody. So fine, so he's gonna do that. So he gets this crappy apartment.
Speaker 1:We see the kids in the apartment with him, like on a saturday, and they're eating takeout like chinese takeout and they're having a conversation and like they mention mom and he says something like how is the old battleaxe? I mean mom. And then he says I would hate, you know. They say she seems really good or whatever, I don't remember exactly. And then he says something like I would hate for her to get amoebic dysentery and the little one is like what is that? And the boy, the middle kid, is like that's when you get diarrhea until you die. And the little one's like you want mommy to die. Yeah, my sister has her mouth is open, jaw drops Like yeah, yeah, it's pretty bad.
Speaker 2:That is some incel shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. So Lydia the 14-year-old is like dad, you're not trying hard enough, you need to try harder. And he says that he will. And then mom shows up an hour early and he gets upset You're my goddamn kids too.
Speaker 1:So mom comes up to the house and she's like I don't have time for this. I have all of these errands to run. She names all the things, including going to the newspaper office. He says, oh, are you going to place a classified like a personal ad? And she says not, that, it's any of your business. I'm going to hire a housekeeper. And you know for what? Well, to help cook and to clean and to be there when the kids get home for a couple of hours.
Speaker 1:He asks if he can be that person, and the kids are kind of like yeah, dad can be that person. She and the kids are kind of like yeah, dad can be that person. She just doesn't trust him, right? But he does sort of say can I see the ad? Like I'm their dad too. And so he wants, he wants.
Speaker 1:So he takes the ad and it's like this is the 90s, so it's like a form that she had filled out manually. He changes two of the numbers in the phone number and gives it back to her. So then nobody's going to answer her ad because the wrong number was printed. Gives it back to her. So then nobody's going to answer her ad because the wrong number was printed. So he calls her repeatedly as different people, because he's a voice actor, remember, and like makes sure there are all these bad options Until then he delivers Mrs Doubtfire, who he didn't have a name for, like Doubtfire came from like a headline that was like police Doubtfire was accident, so that's where that came from.
Speaker 1:Doubtfire came from like a headline that was like police doubt fire was accident, so that's where that came from. Meanwhile we've seen his court appointed liaison, who is a humorless woman in her like late 50s, who again is meant to be like another sort of anti-feminist picture because she's such a sourpuss and she has no sense of humor and he cannot make her laugh and therefore she is awful Feminists have no sense of humor.
Speaker 1:Exactly, he gets a job shipping like as a shipping manager. It's a film company, but he's not acting. He goes to his brother and his brother-in-law he says can you make me a woman? And there's a you know fire scene's like oh, I've been waiting for this day, or whatever it is. So they dress him up in like many different sort of characters and then Williams is doing the voices for these different characters and then they say like classic 90s montage.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it is a classic 90s montage with him as like the old Jewish Bubby and like a Barbra Streisand kind of a feel, and then like it's like like long nails, like I think this might be too much for the anyway. Finally they land on Mrs Doubtfire. They have to like take a cast of his face, cause the the face, mrs Doubtfire's face, is like a rubber mask, no-transcript. Watching julia child and he's cleaning. There's that that classic 90s montage of him, like dancing with the vacuum cleaner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and like just generally making their lives better. Like the kids are doing better in school and they're like they really like mrs dalfire. She offers like discipline but also like does the things like natty loves to be read to, and so she's like reading stewart little, and even miranda is sort of confiding in Mrs Doubtfire. We hear them actually talk about the marriage where you know she sort of talks about how hard things were and like, and he's like well, why didn't you ever say it's like what?
Speaker 2:Anyway, she probably did many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times Right.
Speaker 1:Right, so introduce a new love interest for Miranda. Pierce Brosnan Stewart is his name. I don't remember his last name, it doesn't matter. He is very successful. They have a history. They dated in college and he's now a very successful man. He's looking to launch a new high-end bed and breakfast. He wants the, the design firm, to do it. He asked for Miranda by name. He's clearly very interested and she's interested back, even though she's sort of like I'm going through a weird divorce, like I I don't know, but he's, he's like, he's actually pretty good, like I feel like he, he, he could have backed off a little more than he did, but he also stayed pretty steady and like you know, and it's not.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I didn't remember that they have a history, but the fact that they have known each other before that makes it a little bit less weird that he doesn't less weird that he doesn't, yeah, especially like she says I'm going through a divorce and he was like you know, I just wanted you to be happy.
Speaker 1:I'm so sorry to hear that that's not working out. And you kind of believe him. I mean, he also was just asking her to meet up for drinks, so it's there's a little bit of push me, pull me, but I think we're meant to mainly think he's a pretty good guy, yeah, and has her best interest at heart.
Speaker 2:They do have this history yeah, it's also like it's pier Brosnan.
Speaker 1:I mean damn. And it's Pierce Brosnan in the 90s.
Speaker 2:Damn.
Speaker 1:I mean he's still damn, but like damn he is he is, but he was like, yeah, yeah, he was pretty, yeah, so they start dating. Meanwhile, daniel, as Doubtfire, is like trying to like slut shame. Miranda is trying to like tell her that he doesn't want anything, but sex is like do you really like? And he's like doing like little things that it's kind of gross. He comes to the house one day and Stuart is already there and Daniel, as Doubtfire, like rips the hood ornament off of his Mercedes and like ends up like handing it to him. And like Stuart says I'm from London and I have a home there, whereabouts in England, are you from? Your accent's a little muddied, muddled or something like that. And the response is so is your tan dear? Which is like I mean, it's just really kind of gross.
Speaker 1:So shenanigans ensue, with like Daniel trying to stay a part of this family because he loves his kids, but also like really trying to be a roadblock for Stuart and his ex or soon to be ex-wife, I guess ex-wife where he's like having to like quick change. So the thing that you remember with the cake, the court appointed liaison who's checking up on him is at the house when he's coming home from his first day as Doubtfire, and so she runs into him at the front door and, as Doubtfire, he says oh, I'm Daniel's sister visiting from England, which she knew he was a voice actor. Why didn't he just say it was a gig, anyway? So then the shenanigans ensue, the rubber mask falls out the window and gets run over by a truck, which is why he ends up having to put the cake icing on his face as cold cream. And then the climax that you remember he has this opportunity to maybe get a show at the TV station where he's working, because he ended up kind of like riffing. You know, he didn't think anybody was listening and the owner of the station saw it and thought it was funny. Honestly, it was only mediocre, I mean, even for Robin Williams, like the actual thing that we saw him do.
Speaker 1:But whatever, he has an opportunity to pitch the guy. He needs to be at the Bridges restaurant at 7 pm on Friday. And then it's Miranda's birthday and Stuart is taking the whole family, including Mrs Doubtfire, out to dinner for Miranda's birthday at Bridges at 7 pm on Friday. He tries to get out of one or the other and somehow can't, and so he goes and tries to do both and he's doing this quick change in the bathroom. Meanwhile the station owner guy is like Mrundy is pushing alcohol on him, like I mean they're like they're matching like scotch for scotch and like you on screen see him down at least four plus two glasses of wine. So he's real tipsy. In these quick changes he loses the dentures in a glass of wine and then he's Stewart, helps, helps him.
Speaker 2:He forgets that he's dressed as mrs doubtfire and ends up that's the very end, yeah I'm getting there.
Speaker 1:I'm getting there. So, as mrs doubtfire, he says some really horrible things to stewart, like stewart gives miranda a diamond tennis bracelet for her birthday, and when miranda and the kids are away from the table, mrs Doubtfire is like, says I guess you're trying to get in her pants, but like, in all of these horrible ways it's really, really gross. And then he has to go back to. You know he's going back to Lundy. He's really drunk.
Speaker 1:At this point he hears that the food is up for their table and decides to go sabotage Stewart's food and puts cayenne pepper all over his meal, which he told the waiter that he was allergic to pepper.
Speaker 1:And then he goes back to Lundy's table, the station manager, still dressed as Doubtfire, and he sits down talking with his voice Daniel's voice instead of Doubtfire's voice and Lundy's, like who the hell are you? What the hell's going on? And then finally he says, well, meet your new host for your TV show. And then out of his corner of his eye he sees his family's table and Stuart is choking, like can't breathe. So he runs across like vaults tables to get to them and gives Stuart this very violent Heinlich maneuver, eventually getting the shrimp out of the guy's throat. But in all of that melee the rubber mask has started to come off. So Miranda sees who he is and she rightfully freaks the fuck out. He says to Stewart sorry about the peppermint, and Stewart kind of like hits his solar plexus, his own solar plexus with his fist and sort of like nods. And then they shake hands Like it's all good because you saved me from choking.
Speaker 1:I guess the next we see is another court moment. And the judge doesn't even mention the fact that he tried to kill his wife's new boyfriend, just says like your behavior recently is unorthodox at best and you may have supervised visits on saturdays and he gives this speech about how taking his kids away from him is like taking away his air. The judge is like that was pretty convincing, but I think you're a very good actor. So this is it. This is my ruling. We see that Miranda feels really guilty. She seems to be having second thoughts about this not going well. They talk about how much they miss Mrs Doubtfire. They hear her voice and it's the TV because he's gotten his show and she's doing this. This kid's or she, mrs Doubtfire, daniel, as Mrs Doubtfire is doing this show and Miranda goes to visit Daniel on set. She says you know, I'm really proud of you. This is going great and the kids miss you. And he says what do you want me to do? You may pretend I don't, this is no big deal. You want to pretend that I'm okay and put on a happy face.
Speaker 1:Cut away back to the home. There's a knock at the door. Mom says get ready. The kids say oh, I guess it's the new babysitter and they open the door and it's dad and he's gonna spend a couple of hours with them every day after school. And the kids are like what about the court? And mom's like I took care of it. So they are really excited. The three kids and the dad drive away.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, mrs Doubtfire is reading a letter from one of her fans whose parents are getting divorced, like on the TV screen, and talks about how sometimes grownups, even when they don't love each other, they still love you, and it's not your fault, and families look all different kinds of ways, and that's sort of the voiceover on how it ends. So we see the moment that your jaw dropped open when Daniel was badmouthing Miranda in front of the kids. There's another moment when he first shows up as Mrs Doubtfire at the home and she, miranda, starts to say something about Daniel. And, as Mrs Doubtfire, daniel says I know you ordinarily send the kids out of the room before you bash their father. So you know, like like kind of shaming her into like not talking bad about him, which, as I'm watching now, like you said the thing about amoebic dysentery to your five-year-old, like what? So anyway, there's like more in there there's a lot more of the rivalry. There's more about him actually like getting his shit together.
Speaker 1:But those are peripheral to kind of the main thrust of what I want to talk about. I'll bring them in if I need to. I'll start with Bechdel test Reminder listeners are there at least two female characters with names? Do they talk to one another? Do they talk to one another about something other than a boy or a man? This passes Bechdel. There are many more than two named female characters and I know for sure Natty and Lydia, the two sisters, talk about school and about what Natty did at school that day. So it definitely passes. Bechdel Got that out of the way.
Speaker 1:And there is so much gender stuff in this movie which, I mean, is to be expected with this guy who goes in drag in order to see his kids but the actual nature of the gender stuff is like it was surprising to me on rewatch. It was really surprising to me. On rewatch I read one. I will link to it in the show notes because I think that this analyst did a really great job. It's on a website called the Third Disc, like a blog. The title was Mrs Doubtfire and its peculiar post-feminist backlashery Kill your Post-Feminist Backlashery. And this analyst did a really great job sort of looking at the kind of hidden lessons. I was very impressed with this analysis. I will link to it.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that this person pointed out is, like named all of these female characters who represent sort of like the things we're meant to dislike about feminists, right? So there's the humorless, court-appointed person who we're meant to really dislike because Robin Williams can't make her laugh. There's Miranda, who, frankly, is completely justified in 100% of what she says, but we're meant to see her as some sort of like ball-busting buzzkill. Know, like I was much more sympathetic to Miranda this time around than I think I like we're meant to like come to like her because she eventually sees how much Daniel just loves his kids and makes it happen. But from the moment she's first on screen, the moment she first confronts him, like she is fully justified. This man-child like just destroys stuff and then sets her up as a bad guy.
Speaker 2:But that's not what the movie makers are meant to have us think about her and he can do that because she's there like if she had gotten hit by a bus, what would he have done?
Speaker 1:right, right, right. There's also, like even the kids. Right, we have natty natalie, who's five, who hasn't been like ruined by feminism yet. Who's just like all sweetness and light and awe and wonder and she thinks her dad is the bee's knees. And then there's lydia, who's 14, who sees how hard mom is working, who sees how dad is not working hard and like calls him on his bullshit because she's already been a little bit ruined by feminism. Yeah, so you know, like I was not expecting that in the gender stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's also, like this, undercurrent of what easily, like you, don't have to stretch to turn some of the fundamental lessons that are, under assumptions, undergirding this movie into sort of the like men's rights movements kinds of things, you know.
Speaker 1:He just wants to be with his kids. Why are you, why are you making this so hard? And yet he lies, he deceives, he assaults her boyfriend, like, multiple times. He like breaks his car, you know, pulls the hood on him and off the car. He throws a piece of fruit at him, which is in my memory that's part of the furniture of my mind that I thought was hilarious in 93 when Williams, as Doubtfire says, it was a run by fruiting. I thought that was really, really funny. But like watching it now it's assault, you know, and he was mad because this guy is, quote unquote, stealing his family, like that's the way he names it.
Speaker 1:And then he knows the man is allergic to pepper and then puts a whole bunch of pepper on his meal and like we don't know what kind of allergic he is yeah and he says when he sees stew or choking, he says, oh god, I killed the bastard, but like he maybe could have yeah and we're meant to just like boys won't be boys. But he made us laugh, so it's okay. You know like, and I it doesn't feel like a stretch to sort of say like that is dangerous that to not hold daniel accountable for that behavior, to not have him have consequences, including not having access to his kids yeah and I am not someone who feels that, like families should stay together period and also that's dangerous behavior, because I didn't remember that.
Speaker 2:The judge at the end says like that's very, very convincing, but I believe that you're a good actor like I. I had not remembered that part and so like good on the uh, the filmmakers for doing that, because that's actually that is responsible of the judge for having done that. But. But then it's on the woman to feel guilty.
Speaker 1:Right. And the thing is, the judge apparently doesn't even know about the fact that he assaulted the boyfriend, because I think Stewart would have been within his rights to press charges. Yeah, because he doesn't mention that. He doesn't mention the assault of the boyfriend, he just says the unorthodox behavior. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So like well, and here's the thing I'm thinking. So something I see consistently like people talking about online is there is this like male fantasy you get among like men's rights activists types is like I would do anything to protect my family, and they mean it in like the second amendment way, like I arm myself to the teeth to protect my family. And then mean it in like the Second Amendment way, like I arm myself to the teeth to protect my family. And then people push back saying like okay, will you do laundry to protect your family? Will you cook to protect your family, because your family is more likely to be in danger from parasites from like COVID, from, you know, from malnutrition, than they are from an armed intruder. And so that's the sort of thing like the stand that Daniel takes at the beginning.
Speaker 2:Like you know, I'm not going to say this line because, I am protecting kids, which I don't want to encourage kids to smoke. If I lose followers because of that, I am okay with that. But the thing is like you need to be able to put food on the table for your kids, you need to keep a job and you need to be able to have a house that is clean and safe. You need to know how to cook for them, you need to make sure that they get their homework done and shepherd them safely to adulthood, and so it's that same sort of now it's much more charming because it's Robin Williams and he's hilarious, but it's that same sort of like. I get to choose what it looks like to care for my kids. I get to choose what it looks like when I say I love them like air.
Speaker 1:Right. What's interesting only building on what you've just said is that in this movie he does do those things learns to cook, learns to clean, helps them with their homework but he has to put on female gender, quite literally put it on in order to get there because it's women's work yes, question mark like that.
Speaker 1:this is one of the things that like is surprising to me about gender in this film that like that making that connection, the fact like why couldn't he have done those things as daniel, as dad? He needed to be Mrs Doubtfire, to be the dad those kids needed, and what does that say about? I feel like I could make an argument that that is, in fact, a critique of gender roles, of traditional male gender roles. I'm not sure it actually was framed that way. I don't know how it was Like. I don't know what to do with how it was framed. I think we're meant to think like this guy is like just so devoted he would do this thing, which is totally absurd.
Speaker 2:Emasculating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, literally, and he did it because it's what the kids needed and clearly it's what the kids needed. They're all happier, they're all thriving, including Miranda as a result of Mrs Doubtfire's influence. But why couldn't he have done those things as Daniel Well?
Speaker 2:because he wasn't interested in what they needed until he faced real consequences.
Speaker 1:I mean maybe yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, because that's the story. I mean whether or not the filmmakers did this intentionally. That is the story you see over and over again. I mean, what is it like? 70 or 80% of divorces are initiated by women. It's because men like Daniel don't do what's needed until they're forced to.
Speaker 1:I mean, people don't change when they're comfortable. But I guess adding this layer of the gender performance, of his performance as Mrs Doubtfire like, really makes it like messy for me, because Daniel was capable, he was capable of doing the things he could have just done, the I mean it wouldn't have been a story, it wouldn't have been the cringe humor that was so popular in the 90s it also gets to that sense of entitlement, because he feels entitled to Miranda.
Speaker 2:That's where the like my jaw dropping comes from. Where he's like I hope she doesn't get amoebic dysentery and he like, feels like he has the right to throw limes at the new boyfriend and poison him, is because he feels entitled to this woman and this family, despite doing nothing to to be what they need. Doing nothing to be what they need, yeah, yeah, and that's this rewatch has really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a shame it really has.
Speaker 2:That's a terrible shame, just because I know that is not what I don't know. I didn't know the man and I don't want to like since Neil Gaiman, I'm trying really hard not to put celebrities on the list Not to project. Yeah, from the things that I have read about Robin Williams and some of the things that his daughter has said publicly about him, and he seems like he was a gentle soul and it seems like I don't think he would have wanted to have put something ugly out there yeah but that's like, we swim in this, we swim in this and we don't realize that.
Speaker 1:I think that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:That's exactly it, yeah, and in in the 90s, well, and and like, like what you and I grew up with, go for the joke. Go for the joke. So like the drive-by fruiting was hilarious, like, go for the joke. And like it takes distance to realize how, wait what? No, how is that funny, you know? Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So two more things I want to make sure I I touch on. One is that and actually they're kind of related one is that I came into this anticipating finding a lot of transphobia and it was not as much as I thought there would be. So there is a moment actually the kids figure out who he is because he's in the house as Mrs Doubtfire and goes to the bathroom and doesn't close the door all the way, and Chris comes in and he's peeing standing up and Chris freaks out, goes into Lydia, call 911, because apparently a trans woman is like goes into Lydia, call 911.
Speaker 2:Like because apparently a trans woman is. But anyway, to be fair, in 1993, children would have had no context for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed, agreed, anyway. So he's like freaking out and like really upset, and so Daniel comes out to them it's me, it's dad, it's dad, I did this so I could be with you. And Lydia, when she realizes it really is dad, she like gives him a hug and like she's really excited and he goes to hug Chris. And Chris was like, uh, no, I'm like I'm not mad, but like I don't want to hug you like this. And Daniel's like it's like a guy thing, yeah, and like I actually don't know what that means. Does he not want to hug him? Because he's like I don't know what the kind of hold up was, so, but it feels like transphobia.
Speaker 1:The other moment, in that moment Chris is like you don't actually like dressing like that, do you? And Daniel's like I mean, some of it's comfortable, no, it's terrible. I did it so I could be with you, you know. So that moment really didn't age well and I genuinely don't know. Like they just sort of say like oh, it's a guy thing that Chris doesn't want to hug his dad, while his dad's dressed like Mrs Doubtfire. I don't know if it's because he just saw him peeing in a dress, or because of the padding, or I don't know.
Speaker 2:So that moment was a little bit weird. I do just want to say in the uh, the fact that he does dress as Mrs Doubtfire and this is gets back to the like, the selfishness of of Daniel and the entitlement. This is so he can see his kids, not so they can see him, because they don't even know it's him, because relationships are supposed to be reciprocal, not so they can see him Right.
Speaker 1:They don't even know it's him.
Speaker 1:They don't even know it's him, because relationships are supposed to be reciprocal, right, yeah, I'm just, I'm getting like, yeah, yeah, the more you spin it out, the grosser it gets. Yeah, and he says to them like you can't tell mom, I'll be talking to you through plexiglass. If you tell mom and you can't tell, it's just between us, the three of us, which is yuck. And then related sort of transphobia is that moment you remember with the bus driver. It's exactly as you remember. It's the second time we see him. The bus driver pick him up as mrs doubtfire and he kind of flirted with mrs dot fire the first time. The second time, I was lovely to see you again. It's exactly the way you remember. His skirt had come up above his knee a little bit, and so the bus driver sees the super hairy knee and he covers the knee and he says, oh, I like the Mediterranean women, like it's natural, just as God made you. And he says God broke the mold when he made me as Mrs Doubtfire and this is from the analyst that I mentioned, whose blog post I'll link to.
Speaker 1:There's something again about that moment of like unwanted flirtation that every woman in the world has experienced. That, then, is meant to be sort of funny when it's directed at Williams dressed in drag and also I don't, there was a cringe, but, like the, there's something a little off about it. The, the analysts that I read suggested that the movie makers are suggesting that Daniel, as Doubtfire like, can handle it better than a woman would I. I don't, I don't know if that person is right. That analyst is right, that that's what's happening, but there is something that just feels a little off about the whole thing in in terms of like part of it, I guess, is just making a joke of unwanted flirtation, which happens all the time and, frankly, is often, often presages violence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that moment, part of it, is like you don't get the impression that Daniel's in any danger and Daniel doesn't feel like he's in any danger. Doesn't feel like he's in any danger.
Speaker 1:And the fact that this bus driver is attracted to Daniel as Doubtfire.
Speaker 2:It makes him the butt of a joke, yeah, but also in a way, like kind of makes him sort of sweetly naive in a way. I don't know, I don't know it made me like the bus driver, yeah, yeah, and I don't know how, like I don't know how to feel about how this is put in this movie, because it's just like, because when I've had that experience, it has never felt like that.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't feel sweet.
Speaker 2:And like the thing is like I've never connected it to when I've been alone with someone who has been flirting with me that I have been I have not been interested in, but I have been, like, I've been been appreciative of that moment in this which I even as I've been like yeah, I was, I was supposed to be cringe humor and like you know which, I didn't take it that way. It's weird. There's a lot there. You could unpack the scene and like what exactly were they going for with this, other than the fact that, like, we are fucked up when it comes to gender expression in this culture?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't I mean because I think you were right. We were like he thinks he's found out, and yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know, while the bus driver is flirting, there's never anything like. If nothing untoward, happens Nothing untoward, and he never seems pushy.
Speaker 1:He never even asks her for a date or anything. He just sort of flirts. He just flirts yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like, unlike in Tootsie, there's flirtation that is very much like it becomes harassment, to the point of assault, I think, where Dustin Hoffman's character is like no means no, whereas this is much more like it's much gentler. Much gentler and more like. Isn't it funny that there's some men who find this woman attractive and I was more like. I like that sweet bus driver.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think part of what's sweet about it too is that one expected a transphobic response to the hairy leg and that's not what came.
Speaker 2:I think that is what's sweet about it, and the natural, just like God made you, which now we know that Daniel is a cisgender man. Now that we had not that I personally had that that that language?
Speaker 1:I don't think we were yeah, yeah, certainly not.
Speaker 2:But and who knows if the bus driver would have been comfortable with a transgender woman, but we know that the bus driver is perfectly comfortable with non-culturally acceptable gender expression and yeah, in 1993, and it's just like good on you, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:So the last thing I'll say and then I'll try and wrap up or let you share anything. Also, some of the message, the actual messages around women's sexuality, undergirding this, like, are kind of yucky, right, like miranda. I mean, I'm sorry, but aesthetically pierce brosnan is the upgrade of robin williams. I loved robin williams. He's a great guy and not and not unattractive, but pierce brosnan is like an adonis, you know. I mean they even have natalie say to him they see him at a swimming pool and he, she, says your stomach does not look like my daddy's. And then actually, as Doubtfire, daniel says, I can see that water must be very cold, like what? Holy shit. Anyway, because her ex-husband is our hero, like I, I don't know what we're supposed to think.
Speaker 1:But again and again and again, as doubtfire, daniel slut shames her, even though she's divorced, she's courting this man. I mean he actually, he actually says, as Doubtfire, to try and like intimidate, stuart at the birthday dinner, at that horrible, cringeworthy scene, talks about the fact that she's got a vibrator in her drawer and he's surprised she hasn't chipped a tooth and like I don't know, like weird, weird stuff that he's saying about this woman who is the mother of his children. It's just gross and I think we are meant to think he is out of line. I think we're meant to think he's out of line, you know, when she's getting dressed for dinner and like asking opinions about different dresses, and he's like they're all harlots dresses, you know, as Doubtfire, you know, and I'm watching.
Speaker 1:I'm like go get it, miranda, of course. Yes, yes, why wouldn't you? And she's like miranda asks mrs doubtfire how long after mr doubtfire, before you, you know, had desire and, like you know, went out with other men and she said never as mrs doubtfire, never when the father of your children is out of the picture, then it is your job to just be celibate. And Miranda's like celibate and in my head I'm thinking why are you still listening?
Speaker 2:to Mrs Doubtfire Miranda.
Speaker 1:I'm like what. No no, not even in 93. So I just wanted to also put that out there. And what's interesting too is that Brosnan's character does not come back after the scene when he gets the Heimlich. We don't see him again, so we don't know what happens to him. Because he has served his, are like able to make it work and what they.
Speaker 2:They seem to really care about each other yeah so, and he is, he's appropriate, he's an appropriate he's age appropriate, he's like responsible, he likes her kids, he's good with her kids.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know. So any final things you want to share before I try and wrap up what I had?
Speaker 2:to no, I don't think I'll be revisiting this one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not going on the family movie night I have seen it for the last time. So this movie passes the Bechdel test. It doesn't get much else right about gender. I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I anticipated transphobia, and there is some, but not nearly as much as I thought there would be. What there is is a very weird braiding of sort of ideas about gender and essentialism, essentialist gender and like gender roles, insofar as Daniel Hillard has to literally put on femininity in order to learn to be responsible. I don't know what to do with that. Like, clearly he was capable of making the kids do their homework and learning to cook and cleaning up Because he did it as Mrs Doubtfire, but he couldn't do it until he became Mrs Doubtfire and then he was able to do it as Daniel, and that feels really messed up to me and part of it feels realistic, as you pointed out, because so often men feel entitled to everything until their wives are like no, I'm not doing this anymore, and they make them face real consequences, and then some men learn to step up, and that feels real.
Speaker 1:What doesn't feel real, or what I don't know what to do with, is the fact that this character, this dad and husband, needed to perform as a woman in order to step up.
Speaker 2:It's unclear if the filmmakers were doing that intentionally to skewer something or if this was just like let's put Robin Williams in a dress, yeah exactly Like was that actually trying to skewer hypermasculinity and sort of toxic mess?
Speaker 1:It's not even toxic masculinity, but just sort of like the learned helplessness and like overgrown man child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, weaponized incompetence.
Speaker 1:Exactly so? I don't know. There's also an undercurrent of anti-feminism in this film that plays out through the various female characters, from Miranda, the sort of ball-busting workaholic, to the court-appointed liaison, who is humorless, to even the oldest daughter, who has been started to be tainted by feminism and expects her dad to actually like do the work yeah.
Speaker 1:So that anti-feminist mode combined with some of the entitlement and the. You know we're meant to forgive really bad behavior because he's funny and because he genuinely loves his children. It's not a far leap from some of the assumptions under this movie to sort of men's rights activism bullshit. There's also like a shit ton of cringe humor in this movie that is very difficult to watch for me. I do not enjoy secondhand embarrassment and there's a lot of it in this movie. That is very difficult to watch for me. I do not enjoy secondhand embarrassment.
Speaker 2:And there's a lot of it in this movie Just a lot.
Speaker 1:So I think that's everything we talked about. What did I miss?
Speaker 2:The fact that there's that sense of like, particularly in divorce dads often want to be the fun dad and that there's something in this which, when like and this, as this film points out, like, the kids thrive when they actually have discipline and structure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's some other stuff in there that's gross, that y'all can watch it or not, but anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, watch it or not, but anyway yeah. So apparently not all of robin williams's uh work can be revisited as a gem yeah nope, not this one, yeah, not this one.
Speaker 1:So what are you bringing me next week? I don't remember. So next week I am bringing you titanic. Oh, I have friends, I have never seen titanic. I cannot. How is that possible? It's going on my, it's going on my gravestone. Here lies tracy. I have friends, I have never seen Titanic. I cannot. How is that possible? It's going on my, it's going on my gravestone. Here lies Tracy.
Speaker 2:She never saw Titanic.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, I look forward to hearing about it yes.
Speaker 1:Next week, next week. This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. If you enjoy it, even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. You can support us at our Patreon there's a link in the show notes or leave a positive review so others can find us and, of course, share the show with your people. Thanks for listening. Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom. Find full music credits in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's episode.
Speaker 1:Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture, and shouldn't you know what's in your head?