Say Anything: Deep Thoughts About Romance, Masculinity, and Gen X Nostalgia for Boom Boxes

I'm incarcerated, Lloyd!!

This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily shares her analysis of one of the classic movies that happened to miss the Guy girls the first time around: Say Anything. Cameron Crowe's 1989 romance/comedy created some iconic moments in our collective Gen X childhood--notably the scene of John Cusack's Lloyd Dobler holding the boom box playing Peter Gabriel's "In Your Eyes" over his head. 

Crowe's storytelling also turned a curious eye to toxic masculinity by showing a romance where the young woman's intelligence is a feature, not a bug, for the less-impressive young man who loves her. John Mahoney, who plays Ione Skye's nurturing but corrupt father, also offers an incredibly nuanced take on the psychology of how money can infect even the most loving of parental relationships. While Tracie and Emily both worry about how this romance between two teens will work out--especially if they do "make it" and stay together--the slice of life comedy and realism in this film are lovely to watch, even if they can feel a bit dated after 37 years.

You don't have to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything. Just throw on your headphones and listen.

Tags
nostalgia, 80s and 90s movies, cameron crowe, classic movies, comedy, deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, film, film analysis, gen x childhood, gen x nostalgia, John Cusack, mental health, movie reviews, pop culture, psychology, romance, romcom, storytelling, women

This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find. 

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Transcript

Money, Delusion, And Power

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Money doesn't exist. It's something that we have agreed upon. It's a delusion we've agreed upon. And so that means we put our own neuroses and baggage and psychology and morality onto it. And so then you end up having moments like this. You have things like this, where I can see where Jim could have been a good man at some point, in part because of things like patriarchy, in part because of things like toxic masculinity, and in part because of things like the way our money works, the way that our system works. It twisted him.

Show Intro And Premise

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Have you ever had something you love dismissed? Because it's just pop culture? What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters. You know it's worth talking and thinking about. And so do we. So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.

Say Anything Setup

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I'm Emily Guy Birken, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. Because pop culture is still culture. And shouldn't you know what's in your head? On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1989 Cameron Crow film Say Anything with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you. Let's dive in. So, Trace, I know from before we hit record that you haven't seen this, but tell me whatever's in your head about Say Anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, so I have not seen this one. And like before we hit record, when you know we were talking about it, I said, Is that the boombox one? So that's what's in my head. Say anything is the movie where John Cusack holds a boombox over his head as some sort of romantic gesture. Never seen the movie, but that's romantic gesture in my mind has always been super creepy. Like it always read a stalkery rather than as romantic to me. Not having seen the movie, totally out of context. Like, yeah. But out of context, like if an ex-boyfriend showed up at my house with a boom box in the middle of the night, like it's not gonna endear him to me. But that's really all I've got is the boom that's the boom box movie. So I have a very clear picture of John Cusack in like a trench coat holding the thing over his head. That's all I got. So why are we talking about this movie today? What's at stake for you?

The Boombox Myth, Decontextualized

SPEAKER_03 2:32

So this was not one of the formative films. I never saw it until I was in college, which is unusual for like this is one of the like romantic Gen X films. I mean, that I don't know how you and I both managed to miss it.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Well, I mean, we're a little young for it, right? Like in 89. Except that you were 10 and I was 13.

Why This Movie Matters Now

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Except when I was in college, all of my friends were like, oh my God, say anything. Like we were young for The Breakfast Club, but that was one of our formative films. True. So yeah, I don't know how we missed it. But it was one where I have heard it referred to multiple times as like one of the best romantic films. And there is a romance novel that I've read where they reference it. And I remember when I saw it in college, really being struck by the financial aspect of it. So, because, you know, I'm me. I also remember being struck by the fact that Diane Court, the female lead who's played by Ioni Skye, is brainy. She's very, very smart. And that's why people think that she doesn't fit with Lloyd Dobler, who's played by John Cusack. And so that's something like you and I both kind of self-identify as smart women, which I mean, I don't think we need to self-identify.

unknown 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I mean, uh everybody else also identifies us that way, but yeah. If we don't reject the label.

Plot Walkthrough Begins

Dating, Boundaries, And Safety

Fear Of Flying And Futures

First Sex, Consent, And Care

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Yeah. And she is very, she's bemused by his interest in her because he's not just interested in her because she's Ioni Sky and gorgeous. He's interested in her because she's so intelligent and interesting. So that's what's at stake for me. And it left me with more to think about. I remember the first time I saw it than I was expecting. I was expecting it to be just, you know, high school shenanigans and boom boxes and Peter Gabriel, because it's the In Your Eyes song, which I don't know if I've ever mentioned on the show, but I just adore Peter Gabriel. It's one of my top favorite artists. And when I saw a concert of his a few years ago, it was the best concert I'd ever seen. I was only sad because the week before I'd gone to see Nick Cave in this very like stripped-down show, that was the best concert I'd ever seen. And I really wish I had more than a week in between because so then Nick Cave could be the best for longer? For longer than like he got six days, and then I went to Peter Gabriel, he blew Nick Cave out of the water. Long story short, I was not expecting to have to be thinking about it for several weeks afterwards, the first time I saw it. I do also just want to tell a real quick funny thing. My spouse came in while I was watching it and he was like, Oh, what are you watching? I was like, say anything. He's like, Have you seen it? He's like, Oh, years ago. It was right before the boombox moment. He's like, You and I was like, You know this. He's like, Yeah. And then a second later he says to me, I'm incarcerated, Lloyd. And I'm like, is that a meme? And then as we get to the end of the film, there's a point where Lloyd and Diane go to her father, who is in jail. Diane refuses to get out of the car. And so Lloyd goes in and is talking to him, and at some point says something along the lines of, How are you? And Jim goes, I'm incarcerated, Lloyd. And I like turn to my husband and I was like, How is it that you remembered that? He's like, It's three words. Like, but why did that stick in your head? And we've decided that particularly in this current hellscape of 2026, when we ask each other how you're doing, our response will be, I'm incarcerated, Lloyd. Oi. So as for why now, I don't remember how it ended up on the list, probably because I was thinking about it because of Gross Point Blank, because of John Cusack. I'm not sure. Since you haven't seen it, I'm gonna give you kind of a basic rundown of the plot. Do you want to give me some postcards from the destination first? Oh, good thank you. Thank you for reminding me. I do want to give you some postcards from the destination. I want to talk about non-toxic masculinity and toxic masculinity. That's I feel like what the entire film is about in a lot of ways. I want to talk about smart women and fathers and daughters. I want to talk about divorce and especially divorce in the 80s because it feels like we've come a long way from there. I'm gonna want to talk about money because that is an important plot point, and then that is also part of I think the mask the toxic masculinity of Diane's father. And then like parental obligations. And I want to talk about young love and sex. So those are some of the things that I think are gonna be important aspects of this film. So now that you have some postcards, cool basic rundown of the plot. So it is set in like suburbs Seattle. We meet Lloyd Dobler, who is kind of a sort of a slacker, but he just kind of aimless guy. Senior in high school, everyone is graduating. What we know about him is that he it loves kickboxing, which at the time was a an emerging sport that no one had heard of. And his parents are in the army. They're currently stationed in Germany, and they have basically pawned him off to his older sister, who is played by his actual sister, Joan Cusack, who is a single mother of a little boy. And so, and it's pretty clear that this is an apartment that is maybe like a one or two-bedroom apartment. And so Lloyd is sleeping in the living room. It's not an ideal situation. Lloyd has two best friends. They are both girls. Corey, who is played by Lily Taylor. She has had a wonderful character actor career, but I really wish she had gotten more of the uh amazing parts that I think that she was could have played because she's amazing. And then an actor I don't know, but she was playing, I think her name was like DC or C D or something like that. So he's two best friends who are both girls. And he's saying, I'm gonna ask Diane Court out to them. And they're like, You're reaching too high. She's out of your league, basically. We meet Diane while her father is driving her to the uh the graduation ceremony. She is the valedictorian. It is clear her father dotes on her and he is a single father. First time you watch it, you get the impression that maybe he's a widower. She gives her speech, and people are it's kind of crickets a little bit. And she had said something to her dad about maybe I shouldn't have taken those college courses that took me off campus because I feel like nobody knows who I am. And after the ceremony, and Lloyd doesn't have anyone there because his parents are in Germany and his sister got stuck at work. So he had no one to celebrate his big graduation. Afterwards, so everyone's taking pictures. And so Lloyd gets his friend Corey, Lily Taylor, like, take a picture of me and Diane. And so he like basically runs through where she is to take a picture. So it looks like he's there with her. Like a photobomb almost? Like basically a photo bomb before photobombing was a thing. We see Lloyd call Diane's house and reach Jim. He is played by John Mahoney, who was the father on Frasier, accidentally charm him. Jim starts off with, Are you the one with the Mustang? Are you the one with the truck? Are you the one with the and he's like, Well, I'm the one who drives this thing, whatever. I don't think you've ever met me. My name is Lloyd Dobler. And and he like, he's like, Well, let me get your phone number, I'll have and I'll I'll leave a message for her. Lloyd repeats his phone number like three times. And then as Jim is about to hang up, Lloyd says, She's pretty great, isn't she? And that really charms Jim. And Jim's like, yeah, she really is. We learn that Diane has won a fellowship to England to study. It's, you know, kind of further proof of how great she is. And we learn that Jim owns a nursing home. Diane has a job there, like she works there for her dad. Diane ends up calling Lloyd back. She doesn't really have any idea who he is, but he ends up charming her. And he invites her to the graduation party that one of their classmates is holding. And based on him like just charming her, she says, All right, I'll go with you to that. And he is a just lovely. She's he is lovely to her. When he goes to pick her up, he says to Jim, like, I want you to know I am a kickboxer. I consider myself an athlete, so I very rarely drink. I want you to know your daughter is safe with me. Now that construct is a little gross in some ways, but it's also like, remember that it's 1989. He's trying to be clear like, I want to make sure that she enjoys herself and that she is safe and has fun. And that's my job tonight. Right. And her well-being matters to him. Her well-being matters to me. When they the other thing that I I really love, they get to the party and they're immediately separated. And he doesn't have a problem with it. But he keeps kind of like looking over and checking on her. Like, you having fun? You doing okay? And she has a wonderful time at the party. And she meets all of these people who she never really knew that well. And it's not weird. It's just, you know, like, I wish I'd known you better. And there, she has brought her yearbook and she asks people to sign the sign it. And they stay out overnight. She calls her dad around midnight, and some of the other kids are like, You have to call? And she's like, No, it's okay. I don't mind. Like, he just wants to know I'm okay and he's worried about me. At the end of the night, and they've stayed overnight until they're the last ones at the party. They give a kid a ride home and then they park at a 7-Eleven, get something like to eat or something, and then walk back to her house. And there's a moment where she is has dressed up for it. She's wearing a dress and wearing like these high heels. And Lloyd says, Oh, there's some glass. Be careful. There's some broken glass on the sidewalk. And like he brushes it away and kind of steers her around it. She tells him she had a nice time. She's like, I wasn't expecting you to be so basic. And when she gets in, she tells her father, like, Oh, I feel like I blew it. I told him he was basic. And her father says, I don't think he's dying of embarrassment. And you see him out on the street, like celebrating, like with his hands over his head, like, woohoo. So they start hanging out in friendly ways. He's not pushing for anything physical or anything like that. Their second date is he comes over for dinner. Jim has some of his friends over. At that little dinner party, we learn that Diane is terrified of flying. And so she's worried about the flight to England. She's never been on a plane. She tried to go when she was eight. She freaked out so much she started screaming that Jim said, turn the plane around because they were still on the tarmac, I think. They were, um, got off the plane and they were told never to fly the friendly skies with whatever that airline was again. And so, so we know that this is a very like deep-seated fear. Jim and his guests start asking, Lloyd, what is it you want to do? What are your ambitions? And he doesn't have any. He says, like, well, my dad's in the army, he wants me to join, but that that just doesn't feel like it's right for me. And then he has this wonderful thing where he's like, I don't want to do anything for a living where I'm selling or buying or processing or anything, or well, where I'm selling anything that's bought or processed, or buying anything that's sold or processed, or processing anything that's sold or bought. It really kind of dims Jim's view of him. In the middle of the dinner, two IRS agents show up and tell Jim that he is being investigated for tax fraud having to do with his nursing home. The romance between Diane and Lloyd continues. Diane tells him, I'm only here for another 16 weeks and then I'm going to England. He's like, Well, then I want to spend 16 weeks with you. You know, like then I'll take what I can get. We learn a little bit more about Diane's backstory. She tells Lloyd that her parents got divorced when she was 13 and she had to stand in a courtroom and say who she wanted to live with. And she chose her dad because she felt safe with him and she can always say anything to him, which is where the title of the movie comes from. Diane introduces Lloyd to the residents at the nursing home because Lloyd says something about like, I feel a little weird around older people. There's some kind of lovely scenes where he meets an older woman who's a writer. He introduces the residents to a movie, things like that. You see one night where she spends the night with him. It's in the backseat of his car while Peter Gabriel's in your eyes is playing and they have sex for the first time. This is another lovely scene because they're in the backseat of the car and she goes, You're shaking. He's like, No, I don't, I don't think I am. And she's like, Are you cold? He's like, Well, I'm not shaking. He clearly is. And she's like, Why are you shaking? He's like, I really don't know. And it's clear that this is like an emotional thing for him. When she comes home that next morning, her father is angry at her because she didn't call. And she apologizes for not calling. And then she says, I can't imagine what you must think of me. But then they sit down and she says, I could feel there was this expectation from Lloyd, like he wanted, you know, he never said anything, but I know he wanted more like physically the look that someone would get in their eyes. You know that look. And Jim goes, Yes, I know the look. And she's like, So I had decided I wasn't gonna do anything. And Jim like looks relieved. And then she's like, and then I kind of attacked him anyway. And Jim is like clearly not okay with this, but he doesn't say anything to his credit. He does not say anything. And she says, I love that I can talk to you. I love that I can tell you things. It feels like things don't actually happen until I've told you about them. Lloyd writes a letter to her. He does it on his own initiative, but his friend Corey also has suggested, like, you know, make sure that you let her know, like, that this is like emotionally important for you. And so he has already written the letter and shows it to her. And she's she says, Yeah, this is great. Send it to her. That is basically saying, like, I'm so glad we're together. I don't remember exactly the wording of the letter. I'm sure there are fans of the film who know it by heart because it's not that long. And he mails it to her. Jim picks a fight with Diane, basically saying that she should break up with Lloyd and that she should, you know, give him a gift, you know, let him know that this is like, cause he's like, You're gonna, you're not gonna see each other anymore anyway, when you go to England. Give him a gift. It's okay. Tell him that, you know, you need to focus on your own life. And she's like, But dad, I really like him. He keeps pushing and she finally says, Dad, I love him. And then Jim drops the like fighting stance and says, like, maybe I'm being selfish. Maybe I'm being this. I it's just I have so few weeks left with you. And it's very clear to an adult outside observer he's this is a manipulation tactic. But to Diane, it feels like her dad is actually telling her the truth now. So she breaks up with Lloyd and gives him the gift that her dad suggested she give. And it's a pen. It's a pen. And she says, Please write to me with this. Lloyd is devastated. He goes to see Corey. Corey says, Are you gonna try to reach out to her? He's already called her a bunch and he says, I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm a guy, I have pride. And Corey says, Don't be a guy, be a man. And so we see him call one more time and leave a message. And this is when answering machines were messages you could hear as they were being said. And we see Diane like really wanting to pick up, and again, Jim manipulating, like, pick up if you want to pick up, that sort of thing. That's when we see the boombox moment. The morning after that, or the boombox moment is at dawn. So that same day, Diane goes to the IRS office and speaks to an agent and says, Look, I'm supposed to be going for this fellowship in England. I have this boy that I've been dating, and all I can think about is what's going on with my dad. I don't know what's happening. He won't talk to me. Please tell me what's going on. I need to understand what's happening in my life because of what's going on with my dad. And the agent is very kind but firm. Like, your father is guilty. Here are like some indicators. And one of the things he says is like, he spent money on things and they're all about$9,000. And we all already heard that something that he owns cost$9,000 because that's the threshold to try to avoid an audit. And so he's like, you can probably find information if you look. You can, if you look, you can probably find what you need to know. So she goes home and she starts searching and she finds a storehouse of cash in a box that we know that her father like keeps locked, and so she prys it open. So she drives to the nursing home and confronts her father, who admits it. He lies. She asks him twice in two different ways, and he lies, and then she tells him she found the money, and so he admits it. And he tells her He admits he's been in embezzling.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

What does he admit?

Dad’s Pressure And The Breakup

SPEAKER_03 21:31

So what he has been doing when the patients die, he basically steals their state, he steals their money. He's making up patients and he's taking money from these patients that they're not paying, like they're not intending to pay. Okay. He says, like, may I have someone like me take care of me when I'm old? He's like, I give these people, you know, this lovely life that their family isn't doing. And honestly, he's not wrong. He feels he's entitled to their this money because he takes care of them. But he says, But the money's not for me, it's for you. I did this so that you would have independence. She is furious at him. She's like, We were always supposed to be honest with each other, and you lied to me. And she runs off and she finds Lloyd and tells him, like, I'm sorry, it's all true about my dad. I need you. And he says, Do you need me or do you need someone? And then he immediately says, Never mind, I don't care. And like, as they hug, she says, No, I need you. And so she moves into the tiny apartment with Lloyd and his older sister. And then the next scene, We see is Jim's lawyer negotiating his plea deal. He's gonna have nine months in jail and have to pay something like$125,000. So just before Diane leaves for England, Lloyd takes her to say goodbye to her father in jail. Diane won't get out of the car, so Lloyd's in talking to Jim. And Jim asks, like, So are you going with her to England? Lloyd says, Well, I was thinking about it and I was thinking, like, I don't want, you know, I don't want to hold her back or anything like that. And Lloyd, or excuse me, Jim is delighted. And then Lloyd says, and then I reconsidered and realized, like, I'm very good at being her boyfriend and supporting her and making sure she has what she needs so that she can shine. So I am gonna go with her. And Jim like freaks out at him and is really angry at him. And that's when the I'm incarcerated, Lloyd is. Diane has written him, written Jim a letter, which Lloyd gives to him, which is not a very good letter. Lloyd says, I haven't read it. It's what? It's not a very good letter. It doesn't say that she loves her dad. It's angry.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Okay.

The Boombox In Context

SPEAKER_03 23:55

And Lloyd says, I haven't read it, but if it's the one that ends with, I'll always love you, then it gets better. And like Jim turns to the end and he's like, No, it's just signed with her name. And Lloyd tries to comfort this man and says, Look, the fact that that version exists is meaningful. Then Diane comes in and Jim and Diane have a moment where should they hug each other and then leave. And then the last scene is Lloyd supporting Diane through her panic on the plane, helping her say, like, like, okay, you know, if anything goes wrong on the plane, it goes wrong during takeoff. So we just need to make it until the no-smoking sign goes off. That's where we end the film. Okay. So where do you want to start? So let's talk about masculinity. We have these foils of masculinity that are really interesting. We have Jim, who is in some ways atypical masculinity in that he's a father. And that's not to say that fatherhood isn't masculine. But when you talk about toxic masculinity, you generally aren't talking about girl dads. And you certainly aren't talking about girl dads who are like, just call me as long as you call me. Yeah. I don't care if you stay out all night. Yeah. And who aren't like, I have a 45 and a shovel. I died and would miss you. You know, to the boyfriend. To the boyfriend. There are ways in which this gym reminds me of our dad, Jim, in that he is absolutely like 100% proud of his daughter and thinks that she hung the moon and could do anything she set her mind to. But he's also controlling and manipulative and wants all of her attention. And it makes you wonder how it got to the point where Diane was in a courtroom saying who she wanted to live with at age 13.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

That blows my mind, to be perfectly honest, especially in the 80s, like that a girl would not that girls don't have good relationships with dads, but like if being forced to choose, like just naturally moms tend to be the primary parent, especially of girls.

IRS, Embezzlement, And Agency

SPEAKER_03 26:15

And we get to meet mom once. She has lunch with Diane, and Diane is asking her, please say nice things about dad if the IRS investigators come talk to you. The mom is saying, like, I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about you. And Diane's like, This is what me right now. And the mom's like, No, what boys are you dating? Tell me about the boys in your life. And so you get a sense of that Diane and mom don't connect. Yeah, that's gross. Diane felt like she could say anything to her father, but not to her mother. Right. So all of that is comprehensible. That gets to like the fact that, and I don't know if that really happened in the 80s or if it was just a movie trope where the kid had to choose who they were they lived with. I don't know. But just the idea that you'd make a child have to make that decision is horrifying to me. So, in some ways, what Jim does for a living, like he owns a nursing home where he takes care of older residents, like the one we we meet with a name, I can't remember her name, but she's 93. Like these are older folks who he's like caring for. This is a nurturing kind of man. And yet, even within that non-toxic masculinity is this very toxic entitlement, entitlement to his daughter.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Just in general. I feel like that the entitlement runs through. Cause like you named the nursing home as a evidence of his nurturing.

unknown 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

But he felt entitled there. I'm nurturing you, therefore you owe me more money.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah. Yeah. He even says when the I'm incarcerated, Lloyd moment, he says, like, I shouldn't have to lose my daughter because of this. It's like, you don't get to decide what you lose because of this.

unknown 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

You have done something seriously wrong, like immoral, unethical, illegal, obviously. A fundamental betrayal of so many people, including Diane.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah. Well, the entitlement around the daughter is around Diane is just the toxicity there, from just from what you've told me, I haven't seen this film. Is he actually, as proud of her as he is, doesn't believe in her agency. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Yes. And so it's that kind of parental pride where it's not exactly proud of her, but proud of her reflection of him.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yes. She is another accomplishment of his. Yes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And so that is it's a fascinating thing to look at.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Especially because it's also clear that he really as much as he is capable, he loves her. Yeah. And in some ways, he is a better father than most that you see in 80s movies to a teenage girl.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Well, there is no slut shaming, so.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Yeah. It's really it's a he's a complex character. And that's one of the reasons why I kind of wish this had been one of my formative formative films, because the complexity of his character is fascinating. He's still a villain, but he's gonna remain in Diane's life and she's going to have complex feelings about him. And it's just fascinating. I think it's like fascinating storytelling, fascinating in terms of like how she is going to figure out like the things that he gave her that were good and the things that he gave her that were toxic and not knowing which or which.

Confrontation And Reconciliation

SPEAKER_02 30:09

So I'd like to stay here and because you sort of started, we were talking about this like about vis-a-vis masculinity, the toxicity vis-a-vis masculinity. So I think I want to put this in conversation with the fact that QSAC's character says, I have my dignity, I'm a guy. And a female character says, Don't be a guy, be a man. And like, what are the implications then of that? Because then the action to follow, to be a man, is the boombox moment, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yes. So now in between, there's a point where he's like recording something on on a like a little digital recorder, not digital, but tape recorder, notes to Corey. And one of the things he's saying is, like, I have too many female friends. I need to guy have guy friends, go hang out with the guys. And so he goes and meets up with Corey's ex-boyfriend, Joe, and then three other guys. And then there's a little kid there who's like, I don't know, 12, who are hanging out outside of a gas station on a Saturday night. And he's like, What do I do? And they all give him really toxic advice, which is basically like one of them is find find a girl who looks just like her, and then like, you know, have sex with her and dump. And have sex with her. Uh-huh. Yeah. But dump her and like devastate her. I can have like there's so many girls in Seattle. Let's go meet, like, you can go meet a girl. And like, there's it's all like the very typical toxic masculinity. So Lloyd is listening to all of these men, these young men, these boys. I mean, they're they're all like 18, 19 years old, talking about like how they deal with it. And he's like, if all of you are experts, why are you sitting here alone on a Saturday night with no women around? When he gets back in his car and he's back on his recorder, he's just like, that was a mistake. The movie shows us what a guy does.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Mm-hmm.

Plane Panic And Partnership

SPEAKER_03 32:02

We see Corey, and it's played for laughs in a way that I'm not very comfortable with. Corey had had this really tumultuous relationship with Joe, who had been unfaithful to her. She's a songwriter and she's like, I wrote 63 songs this year and they're all about Joe. And like Joe lies when he cries and things like that. There's a comment about how she ended up in the hospital because she tried to die by suicide, but she's okay now. And then we see at that graduation party, Joe shows up with Mimi, who he had cheated on Corey with. And then at one point he finds Corey. He's crying. He says to her, like, I miss you, babe. And like, I want to get back together. And then he's like, Mimi's going off to college. So, and he's like, Let's go have sex. And she's like, Absolutely not. We're also given that example, which is a lack of faithfulness. So the boombox, the calling, is supposed to be in conversation with that. It's like a foil to that of this is what a man does, which is like is faithful. If you're comparing Lloyd to Joe, yeah, Lloyd is definitely non-toxic compared to Joe. Part of what the problem is, is because we can see what Diane is going through, we know she doesn't actually want to break up with Lloyd.

Masculinity: Guys Versus Men

SPEAKER_02 33:29

That's exactly what I was thinking. So I think it's faithfulness, but it's like in the broadest sense of that word, not just in like exclusivity and not sleeping with other people, but in actually like being faithful to the human being, like like caring about the actual human being and not just the woman who happens to be closest and or willing. And so it's actually about Diane, not just the fact that she's female and willing. And so in that sense, like that all okay, great. Yes, good. And the last point you made feels super important because I feel like one of the reasons that, like, in my head, without context, the boombox moment bothers me is that like, like that sort of sense, like, you know, she turned you down. So what are you gonna do? You gotta don't give up, you gotta keep trying. Like, no, she said like no is a full sentence. You know, she made her intention clear. And so this movie, because we do see that that's not what Diane actually wants, that she has this villainous dad, makes it okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

When the movie ended, because my spouse stayed for the end of it and I it ended and credits are rolling. I'm like, I'm not sure how I feel about this movie. Lloyd says, like, I don't think he says being Diane's boyfriend, but something along those lines, like, I figured out what I want to do for a living. I want to be with Diane. I'm good at it. We have seen evidence. Yes, he is. He is very good at being there for her, supporting her, getting out of her way. All the things that her dad is not, actually. But he's still an aimless 19-year-old boy. And young love, mmm, like, is that gonna last?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

And so part I'm sorry, but defining your existence and purpose on one other person is a really bad idea for both parties.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Yes. What feels refreshing about it is that in 1989, it would be a woman doing that for a man. Totally. Yes, agreed. The gender swap is refreshing. I agree. Like Jim has a point in being kind of unimpressed with Lloyd's lack of direction. And like we also see Lloyd is saying, like, uh, because there's at one point he runs into the career counselor who says, You never met with me. Every single other person in your graduating class met with me and put something in their folder. And he said, Yeah, but how many of them are really gonna do what they said? Right. And like he he makes a good point, but it's also like you need to head somewhere. And following a person, uh yeah, it just it worries me because that seems like a very bad plan.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Well, it just puts so much pressure on Diane. I mean, she's this high-achieving kid who like cares deeply about others, and like it's just it's too much pressure on her. So now she's not gonna be able to actually be honest about what she wants if what she wants is not him anymore. Yes. Because he's put everything in her.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

And maybe projecting a little bit here. It's been clear that he doesn't handle being cut loose well. Right. It also seemed revolutionary because the fact that we've got this smart woman who's got this absolute devotion and support from a young man who is not in any way intimidated or he doesn't feel diminished in any way by the fact that she's smarter than him. That's still fucking revolutionary, to be honest. Yeah. So I think all of that is great. And if they were like, if it were a story about 39-year-olds, I don't know. I and like the thing is there I don't know that Cameron Crow intended for us to believe that they're gonna be it's a happy ever after, it's a happy for now. Because they're not done yet. They're still cookie dough, they're not cookies.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah.

Toxic Advice And Better Models

SPEAKER_03 37:44

They're each what the other needs at the moment. And that there's something lovely and wonderful about that. And so that's something that is it's a story worth telling. And the story doesn't need to have doesn't need to tell us what happens next, doesn't need to editorialize on what's going to happen. I do worry having lived through that age and just knowing how toxic aimlessness can be for young people, even though Lloyd has shown himself to be so open to whatever happens in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah. I mean, when you say worry, like honestly, my bigger worry is that they do work out, that they end up married and like 25 years from now, she's like, feels resentful that she has this additional like obligation since his only purpose is her.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Well, I mean, he seems like the kind of person who would then be like this amazing dad, because he's he's a great uncle to a sister's kid. We all need support personnel. Do we want them to be our our significant other? Yeah. I agree that the real concern about young love is that they make it.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Yeah. If he doesn't find the an additional purpose besides being your partner.

unknown 39:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Although we do see him teaching at a kickboxing studio and saying, like, I can't believe I get paid for this. So I mean, there's he's got more in his life than just her. Okay. It's also like this is a slice of life. So let's not put on it what's not on it. Sure. The concern is, considering how formative this film was for so many of our generation, wanna that there is something to consider after the credits role.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Mm-hmm.

Young Love And Purpose

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Yeah. I think we're running a little short on time. I want to make sure, and this is the I in some ways connected. I want to talk about the money aspect of this. In part because, like part of the part of what makes young love not last is the day-to-day stuff like money. That, you know, you can't smack up against the like the responsibilities of the real world like money with the idealism of young love and expect everything to turn out peachy necessarily. That is part of what Jim is telling himself he's doing for Diane. He's like, He, I did this for you so you could be independent, financially independent. And it's an it's another form of control. Because instead of trusting that she has the agency to be able to handle herself because he has raised her to be smart, to be savvy, to know how to handle like jobs and money and all of that. Instead of trusting that, he's putting his finger on the scale saying, like, no, no, no, I'm going to provide this for you so you don't have to worry. And it's another, like, this is a reflection of me rather than it being actual belief and pride in his daughter. That gets to, I've talked before about like money scripts. So he gives her a car as her graduation present. It's a stick shift, and we see Lloyd teaching her how to drive it. Providing gifts to people you love, that's not an uncommon money script. Equating money with love is not an uncommon money script. And actually, it makes sense that this man who has made has like his career is a nursing home where he kind of gives this Ursatz, family love, to these nursing home residents that he would then feel entitled to their money. Because I'm giving you the love your family didn't give you, and that equals money. And so he then wants to show his love to his daughter with this money. But it's all a mess because none of it is real love. None of it is really how money works because she's overwhelmed by the gift of the car. She's going to England. So what's going to happen to that car?

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Right. She can't take it with her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Although she could, but it would be very expensive. Yeah. When he gives it to her, she doesn't know that she's going to England. So to be fair, but still, they knew it was a possibility. Like she had applied for this. It shows again another facet of Jim trying to control his daughter and seeing her as an extension of himself rather than as a full and complete person on her own who is capable.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Yeah, I hear that. I hear that. I want to circle back to the a thing that you said about love and money. I think this is really I'm fascinated by this. I mean, we've talked about money scripts before on the podcast. So listeners go back and listen to the Wall Street episode or the Avalon episode to hear more about that. But I want to stay with this because, like, in my mind, lots of people I know like give gifts, spend more money to show how much they love. But what you just described with this character is that it goes the other direction too. He's giving love, airsatz love, family, airsatz family love is the way you phrased it, to the residents of his nursing home. And therefore he thinks that entitles him to money. Like there's an equivalency in both directions in this narrative that I'm not sure I fully like wrapped my mind around in earlier thinking about this. Like I'm always thinking about the way people spend money to show love. But you're naming that at least some of the time, in this example, for instance, that one might give love to get money or feel entitled to some money as a result of giving love. And that's a really interesting like twist on it. I was not really considering, but now that you've said it, I see how that happens. Like I'm just thinking of examples of that in my mind. So I just wanted to like circle back to that and underline it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

We know someone personally who's like that.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Yes. And I was thinking of that person, I think, in the way that in the other, you know, in the like spending more money to show love and when other people don't spend money.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Not even that, but also buying love by spending money on someone to make them a friend. Right. Right. So that is something that you commonly see. Right. But then also feeling like love has a price. Because if you think of money that if that way, if you think of money equals love, then that means love has a price.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

And I do think that that person that we're both thinking of, who's an extended family member of ours, like felt entitled to money that was not hers because of the love that she had for the person to whom it did belong.

Gender, Brains, And Support

SPEAKER_03 45:04

It's all tangled up because when you start thinking of it that way, there's no crisp, clear definition of either money or love.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Well, and then you get into all this messy things where like the money that's like as exampled in this movie, the money was not Jim's. But he felt that he was entitled to it because of his conflation of love and money. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yes, exactly. It's fascinating. Like it's a fascinating, especially because of the character study we have of Jim. He's not Gordon Gecko. He is not out to get like extract every single penny out of everyone. And it really does seem like he cares for the residents of his nursing home as much as he is capable of. Right. He does nurture. Well, which is why he feels entitled to their money.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

If he did exactly them, he wouldn't feel entitled.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

But that's why I find like the these money conversations so fascinating and why I have been telling people a lot lately. I've been writing about money for 15 years. I started off as like bleeding heart leftist and I am now like burning to the ground, radicalized. Money doesn't exist. It's something that we have agreed upon. It's a delusion we've agreed upon. And so that means we put our own neuroses and baggage and psychology and morality onto it. And so then you end up having moments like this. You have things like this, where I can see where Jim could have been a good man at some point. And it got twisted. And in part because of things like patriarchy, in part because of things like toxic masculinity, and in part because of things like the way our money works, the way that our system works. It twisted him.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Right. And his genuine care and concern for his daughter's well-being, which again got twisted into this control over her and a denial of her agency. But I can see that it started from genuine care and concern about her well-being.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

You could see him like holding like an infant Diane thinking, like, I want you to have the world, which is a lovely parental sentiment that needs to grow as your child grows and needs to adapt and change as your child adapts and changes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

And allow room for them to be full human beings with agency. Exactly. Well, we have about three minutes left, Em. So do you have any well, you have a final point you want to make before I wrap us up, or would you like me to reflect back to you?

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Just the real quick the parental obligation, like what Jim owed his daughter was not what he thought it was.

Money Scripts And Control

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Yeah. I think that's a more concise way of saying what we were just saying about it growing and changing. Yeah. Agreed. All right. Let me see if I can reflect back the highlights of our conversation and listeners. Hopefully this will be completely invisible to you, but we actually had to stop and start a couple of times. So I'll do my best. For this movie Say Anything, we spend kind of a significant amount of time thinking about toxicity in behavior. And I think there are some overlaps with toxicity around masculinity, for sure. I mean, intentionally so, when we see Lloyd figuring out what does it mean to be a man versus being a guy and like going and get other men, his age boy, boys, ideas about how to deal with this breakup and some of the horrible, truly toxic things that they say to him versus then what he feels that he should do. And there are many things about this film that, especially in the context of 1989, are really refreshing vis-a-vis toxic masculinity, not least of which, which really resonates for us, that Diane is very smart and presumably smarter than Lloyd. And this does not diminish Lloyd in any way. In fact, it's part of what he likes about her. And that was revolutionary in 1989. And to be frank, it's still a little bit revolutionary that a man could be in love with a woman smarter than he and not feel diminished by that. I say this from experience. So that's pretty great. We also spoke a bit about sort of divorce and just kind of like both a little flabberasted that and hope that it was just a movie trip and not happening at least often that children were forced to choose which parent they would stay with. It is a little surprising that a 13-year-old girl would choose her dad, not because dads aren't good and important parents, but just because usually the mom is the sort of primary parent, especially to a daughter. And so that is something that I think is meant to testify to just what a good guy and a good parent Jim has been. We spent quite a bit of time talking about young love and the sort of dangers of young love, that it feels like it's forever when it really isn't and shouldn't be, because we are who one another needs when we're 18 or 19, but we're not the same people when we're 30 that we were when we were 19. Thank God. And so if we grow differently than our partner, then it might not work anymore. And circling back to sort of the toxic masculinity, I talked about Lloyd versus his friends. There also is some comparison of Lloyd versus Jim. And Jim, in some ways, is non-toxic. He does not slut shame Diane for having slept with Lloyd, but he does control and manipulate her into breaking up with him. So there's an entitlement which does not align precisely with toxic masculinity, though the outcomes are similar insofar as he diminishes or ignores or overrides her agency. You spent some time talking about money and money as love and that sort of equation that blew my mind a little bit when thinking about it going the other way, though I see it very strongly now that we have said it out loud. And then you wanted to make sure that we came back to talk, to say explicitly about what a parent's obligation is and that what Jim thought the obligation was to his daughter was actually maybe not. So that's what I recall. Did I miss anything? No, no, I don't think so. Okay, cool. So next time, Em, I'm gonna bring you my deep thoughts about the road to Wellville. About the Kellogg Company featuring Matthew Broderick.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

That was a very uncomfortable movie to watch with our father. Yes. See you then. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

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