Adventure Travel with Tom Rosenbauer - The Orvis Company

Tom Rosenbauer

Chief Enthusiast
The Orvis Company

Tom Rosenbauer has been with the Orvis Company since 1976, and while there has been a fishing school instructor, copywriter, public relations director, merchandise manager, and was editor of The Orvis News for 10 years. He is currently their chief marketing enthusiast, which is what they call people when they don’t know what else to do with them.

He has fished extensively across North America and has also fished on Christmas Island, the Bahamas, Belize, in Kamchatka, Chile, and on the fabled English chalk streams .

His podcast, The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast, is one of the top outdoor podcasts on ITunes and has had over 25 million downloads since its inception. He lives with his wife and son in southern Vermont on the banks of his favorite trout stream.

summary
In this episode of the Big World Made Small podcast, host Jason Elkins welcomes Tom Rosenbauer, the Chief Enthusiast of Orvis, to discuss his extensive journey in the fly fishing industry. They explore Tom's early experiences with fishing, the evolution of fly fishing, and how it has become more accessible to newcomers. Tom shares memorable adventures, the importance of passion in sustaining a long career, and how technology has changed the way they connect with the fishing community. The conversation wraps up with insights on future travel aspirations and demystifying fly fishing for beginners.

takeaways

• Tom Rosenbauer has been with Orvis for 49 years.
• The title 'Chief Enthusiast' reflects a long career with Orvis.
• Starting in retail is a common path for those in the fly fishing industry.
• Fly fishing can be accessible and affordable for beginners.
• Technology has transformed how fly fishing is taught and shared.
• Traveling for fishing can lead to unforgettable experiences.
• Passion is key to longevity in the fly fishing business.
• Fly fishing is not just about trout; there are many species to target.
• Independent fly shops are crucial for the fishing community.
• Learning to fly fish has never been easier with online resources.

Learn about Tom's trip to Iceland.

Learn more about Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Marketing and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers on our website.

Transcript

Jason Elkins (00:01.14)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the adventure traveler. This is a really, really, really big treat for me today. I've been, we've done over probably over a hundred episodes now. And early on when I started this podcast, I thought of who would I reach out to invite to be on the show? And I'll be honest, there were some people out there that I knew would be great on the show, but I was a little intimidated. I didn't want to reach out to them.

I wanted to kind of have a few episodes under the belt before I reached out to him. And my guest today is one of those guys. I've got Tom Rosenbauer. Tom is the Chief Enthusiast for the Orvis company. And for anybody that's listened to the show before, they know, maybe they've heard me speak about working at Orvis and my time there. So this is a really, really big treat. Tom, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here.

Tom Rosenbauer (00:50.518)
Well, I'm glad to be here, Jason. It's fun talking to you. And I don't know why you're intimidated by me, because you and I travel a lot together. We fist together. We're together.

Jason Elkins (00:57.394)
I know!

You know what it was is we worked on a professional level together, friendly level, and it was just like when I got this thing started, I wasn't sure where it was going to go. And I didn't want to waste anybody's time, especially the people I really respected. And now I think I got to about 100 episodes released or at least uploaded. And I like, OK, now I feel confident that I can reach out to you, For anybody that's listening to this part of that is that Tom is a very well known podcaster in addition to many things. He is the host of

Tom Rosenbauer (01:09.047)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (01:30.368)
I guess it's the the Orbis podcast. What's the Orbis fly fishing podcast? Right. And it's been around for a long time. So we're going to dig into that a little bit. But also just, you know, you've been around. That makes you sound like I'm saying you're old. I'm not. But you've been around in the kind of the outdoor space. Let's call it that for quite a while. There's a lot of crossover between adventure, travel, adventure, tourism. You and I have been on some adventures together with Orbis clients.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:33.016)
The Urvus

Tom Rosenbauer (01:44.654)
I know I am old. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (01:58.862)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (02:00.044)
So anyway, so happy. And Tom, what the heck is Chief Enthusiast? That's an interesting title I've never come across.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:06.828)
Well, it's what they call you when you've been with a company for 49 years and they don't know what else to call you. It's kind of like one step before being put out to pasture, think, Jason.

Jason Elkins (02:14.38)
Okay

Jason Elkins (02:21.772)
All right, I get that. What was your first title, your first job at Orvis? What was it? Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (02:30.03)
in the retail store. that time, Orvis had only one retail store. Now there's about 70 of them. Yeah, was like, you couldn't get any closer to the bottom than where I started.

Jason Elkins (02:47.052)
Well, yes, but it's that's the place to start, isn't it?

Tom Rosenbauer (02:52.854)
Yeah, you know, in the fly fishing industry, in particular, I get a lot of questions on my own podcast about, you know, how do I get a job in the fly fishing industry? Because it's a passion industry and people love it and they want to they want to work in it. And I tell them, you know what, nearly everybody has started in, you know, that stayed with it started in the retail business because it's a tiny

industry. Everybody knows everybody and you need to develop a network and one of the best ways is to work in retail. as a lot of people know retail for most people is a horrible job, but some people love it and some people really embrace it. But for people like me, it's not what it's not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

Jason Elkins (03:43.232)
get it. Well, I get that. And I think that I'm happy this came up because I had the same experience. I remember I started teaching myself how to fly fish was reading your books. And like, this was a really long time ago, you know, back when the books were on paper even, you know, but I was I was teaching myself how to fly fish, reading books, reading everything I could get my hands on. And I decided, okay,

Tom Rosenbauer (03:49.806)
Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (03:55.534)
now you're really making me feel old.

Jason Elkins (04:12.106)
I want to work in this business. And so what I did, I'd gone into some fly shops and had some conversations, but it was always, you know, they've got other things going on. knew that they had a lot of people like me coming in. Ooh, how do I get a job in this business? How do I become a fly fishing guide or whatever? And I decided, I signed up for a fly tying class. I honestly, I know you're quite a fly tier. I really have very little interest in tying flies.

Tom Rosenbauer (04:26.732)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (04:38.272)
But what I realized was that if I signed up for a fly tying class, there would be two, three, maybe four students for an hour with this guy who was working in the business. So I figured I would have an hour every week to sit there and pick this guy's brain, to learn a little bit about what he was doing, to develop a relationship with him so that when I said, how do I do what you're doing, not necessarily teaching fly tying, that he would be more receptive to it. And that was

I think probably within about six months that I got my first job in the business. So yeah, it's kind of the way we do things, isn't it?

Tom Rosenbauer (05:11.886)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (05:16.268)
All right, we're going to we're going to chat a little bit about fly fishing. We're going to chat a little bit about orvis. But one of the things that came up for me this morning before we we before I hit the record button, Tom, was that I've spent a lot of time around you, you know, both in the field, the office, eating at the lunch table at the orvus or headquarters. And I never really heard your story. You know, I little stories here and there. But like if someone asked me, where did Tom grow up?

Tom Rosenbauer (05:31.458)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (05:39.8)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (05:44.204)
How did he start in the business? This is the first time I've heard that. So let's go back. I want our listeners to kind of get a feel for how you got from where you were to where you are now. We already just briefly touched on that first job, but I suspect there was something going on before that. So how far back do we need to go to understand you, Tom?

Tom Rosenbauer (06:03.506)
Well, it's not really that interesting of a story, but I'll tell you anyways. My dad used to take me fishing when I was a kid, really young. He was a worm fisherman, know, like to sit on the bank and catch bullheads and white perch and stuff in Lake Ontario. I took to it. I was always interested in critters, know, reptiles and...

Jason Elkins (06:07.148)
Well, it might not be to you.

Jason Elkins (06:20.96)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (06:30.05)
fish and stuff like that. I took to it and I decided when I was, he started playing golf pretty seriously. And I decided when I was 11 or 12, I had a bicycle that I wanted to learn how to fly fish. I'd seen it on like the American sportsman and in magazines, field and stream and outdoor life. And I thought it looked interesting. I thought it looked like a fun, interesting way to fish. I taught myself, you know, there weren't many

course there were no there was no video no internet no YouTube and the books that were out were pretty bad at the time for for learning but I taught myself I hacked my way through it then I had a friend in Boy Scouts who was also interested and we kind of taught each other and compared notes and I started tying flies

And I went and I there was a guy who had a guy named Carl Coleman. I grew up in Rochester, New York, who had a he just passed away recently. He was really my mentor. had a he had a little fly shop in his garage and sold all of his stuff. And I went in to, you know, buy some stuff. And he looked at my flies and he said, boy, these are really good. Do you want to tie for my shop? And I said, well.

Jason Elkins (07:53.062)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (07:54.23)
Yeah, better than a paper route. So, he gave me some more lessons and took me fishing a couple of times. He was a brilliant angler, really brilliant fly fisher, very, very smart guy. And I started tying flies for him. This was, you know, when I was 12, 13 years old and, tied throughout high school for him.

Made a fair amount of money for me back in the Late 60s early 70s a lot of money for a you know teenage kid

Jason Elkins (08:34.028)
Do you remember what flies sold for then? mean, I haven't been fly fishing in a while. I suspect it's gone up a bit, but do you remember like if you walked in and bought, you know, parish and Adams or parachute Adams or something or fly shop back in the seventies, what did that cost?

Tom Rosenbauer (08:39.704)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (08:45.26)
Yeah.

Don't I probably like 75 cents 50 75 cents now. They're two bucks three bucks. So I Don't I don't I don't remember Yeah, I don't remember well, I wasn't patient at all I'm my mother can tell stories of me yelling and Screaming in the basement when things didn't go right

Jason Elkins (08:51.753)
OK, all right.

All right, so what was your cut on that as a 12, 13 year old kid? I'm just trying to imagine that. Boy, you're so much more patient than I am.

Jason Elkins (09:17.164)
Okay. I, I, before we move on, I want to ask one question. Cause you said your dad kind of brought you up. You're talking about, you know, fishing for bullheads bait fishing, stuff like that. Sounds like he maybe got into the golf. I'm curious when you started teaching yourself to fly fish was, was he supportive about that? Because sometimes there's this thing about, fly fishing and bait fishing and, well, bait fishing is not good enough for you. You're going to go fly fish. So.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:38.742)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (09:46.306)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (09:47.188)
Was did you get any resistance from him or anyone in your family or friends?

Tom Rosenbauer (09:51.618)
The only resistance was, no, he didn't have any resistance to it, you know, cause I had a bicycle and I was able to go out and fish by myself. He never fly fished. He didn't have the patience. My father was not a patient person. He didn't have the patience to learn. And the only thing, he was a child of the depression. And when he found out I spent $20 for a flyer out at Western auto, he thought that that was ludicrous.

But other than that, no, he was supportive.

Jason Elkins (10:23.18)
Were you into catch and release right off the bat when you were fly fishing? Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (10:26.196)
No, no, I would whack them on the head and bring them home. And then when I started doing more catch and release, my father would be pissed because I wouldn't bring home any fish.

Jason Elkins (10:35.914)
Yeah. That's why I wanted to ask that because I remember when I got into fly fishing, you my grandfather, my mom's dad had taught me to fish and we'd always go out and we'd come back with a bunch of fish and we always had trout in the freezer. And when I was started to, you know, tell him that, I into fly fishing and he'd say,

Tom Rosenbauer (10:40.727)
the

Tom Rosenbauer (10:49.144)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (10:57.388)
Pretty much every time he knew I was going, said, oh, bring some fish back for me. Well, Grandpa, I don't do that anymore. He just could not get his head around it. And I think there was some kind of like, oh, you're one of those guys now. So yeah, I can.

Tom Rosenbauer (11:10.934)
Yeah, I didn't have any problem with killing fish when I first started fly fishing. It's just that, you know, if you kill a fish, it takes time out of your fishing. got to stop and gut, gut them and drag them around. And I didn't want any part of that. Not that I didn't. Trout aren't that great. Eat. Yeah. Trout aren't that great to eat. There's lots of better fish to eat in my opinion. So.

Jason Elkins (11:18.857)
Yeah!

Jason Elkins (11:23.518)
And after you've eaten enough of them, you're kind of like the reward. It's it's just so much easier to let them go and keep fishing.

Jason Elkins (11:34.86)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. Very, cool. So your time flies. You set up until you were 18. What was school like? What things were you interested in school?

Tom Rosenbauer (11:49.136)
not much. was not. I mean, I like fly. I like fly fishing. was a geek. I didn't, I didn't play any sports except track. And I was kind of the weird kid who went, you know, fly fishing and, I was not.

Jason Elkins (11:51.284)
Okay.

Jason Elkins (11:55.884)
All right. All right.

Jason Elkins (12:05.196)
All right. Did you have aspirations for what you wanted to? Sometimes when we're teenagers, we get ideas. this is what I want to do for living. This and that or other times we have no idea. I'm just curious. Did you think you would end up in this?

Tom Rosenbauer (12:12.387)
Yeah.

I wanted to be Gat about Gattus. Do you remember who Gat about Gattus was? You're probably too young to remember that. Gat about Gattus was a TV show. It was called the Flying Fisherman and he had an airplane, a little Piper Cub, and he would fly all around in his airplane and go fly fishing. So that's who I wanted to be, Gat about Gattus.

Jason Elkins (12:20.265)
No. No.

Jason Elkins (12:34.26)
All right. That's very, very OK. That's very cool. So what was what was your plan when you know as an 18 as a teenager? How did you get to be get about Gattis? Is that get about?

Tom Rosenbauer (12:44.556)
Well, then I realized that I was not going to beat Gadda about Gaddis. And so I pursued education in fish biology and aquatic entomology, which fit in well with my passion. I went to the College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse and tied flies for another fly shop in Syracuse.

Jason Elkins (12:54.623)
Okay.

Tom Rosenbauer (13:11.8)
during my college years and then I actually taught fly tying classes and the guy had a mail order fly tying business and I would package feathers and stuff for him and work in his bay. He had a combination bait shop, fly shop, the orvus bamboo rods next to the minnow tank. And it was kind of in a seedy section of downtown Syracuse. It was a really interesting place.

Jason Elkins (13:31.231)
nice.

Jason Elkins (13:39.03)
Do you remember what years?

Tom Rosenbauer (13:39.49)
There was a mafia coffee shop next door, gambling joint slash coffee shop. Yeah, it was a pretty interesting place.

Jason Elkins (13:44.735)
Nice.

Jason Elkins (13:51.66)
Do you remember what years you would have been there?

Tom Rosenbauer (13:54.126)
72 to 76.

Jason Elkins (13:56.844)
Okay, all right, because I was in, my mom went to graduate school in Syracuse, but we were there in the late 80s. So I was just wondering if it would be interesting that, but that can relate to Syracuse. Yeah, that's all right. Very cool. So then, so you were doing that. I was curious when, were there other people in these classes going to school with you that were also into fly fishing? Because it seems like a good choice.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:01.548)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:08.6)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (14:17.87)
No, it's funny. It's funny in those days, young people didn't fly fish, right? They didn't fish much at all. I there were like, I think there were 2000 students in the forestry school, not a big school, it's a state school. And the only fly fisherman was a teaching assistant that I had in ichthyology. And he was a Catskill native. And so he, you know, he and I became fast friends.

But there was not another student that fly fished in the whole College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Not one. It's different these days, know, now colleges have fly fishing clubs and it's great. There are so many young people. back in those days, it was the province of old white men. And I was really the oddball.

Jason Elkins (14:53.014)
Wow, wow, that's it, that's, yeah.

Jason Elkins (15:10.604)
Do think the other students were interested in fishing, just not fly fishing or?

Tom Rosenbauer (15:12.462)
There were a couple that were interested in fishing or actually weren't that many that were interested in fishing either is weird Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Jason Elkins (15:20.278)
Huh. Yeah, I can imagine that that would be a good route. I mean, when you said you went to school, you know, study theology and aquatic biology and like, OK, yeah, that that makes that makes complete sense. And what was the goal with getting a degree in that? What was what did you envision yourself doing?

Tom Rosenbauer (15:36.878)
Well, I graduated with a bachelor's degree, a bachelor of science. And to do anything in fisheries, I would have had to go to grad school. And I didn't have enough money to go to grad school. So I saw an ad in the Orvis News, which was a newsprint publication. had been to Orvis. I had Orvis Rods since I was a teenager in reels.

And so I said, well, maybe I can work for us for a couple of years and then go back to grad school, make some money. Well, A, I wouldn't make enough money to go grad school. No. And B, I just never left. you know, I took a job at Orvis. They needed a warm body who needed who knew something about fly fishing. I ended up I ended up spending most of my time

Jason Elkins (16:11.348)
You don't make that much money working as a clerk at a thoroughs work.

Tom Rosenbauer (16:30.764)
measuring inseams on chinos for wealthy people from Connecticut and New Jersey. That was not my thing. So luckily some other things opened up in the company. Fishing school instructor and running the fly department. I just did a lot of different things. Worked on the telephones, taking phone orders during the winter and taught fly fishing during the summer.

Jason Elkins (17:00.608)
I was one of the things I enjoyed most at Orvis was just the lunch conversations, just sitting at the lunch table, listening to, I probably should not use the word the old timers, but I'm going to use the word the old timers. Anybody that could say that they used to take orders when things would get busy, they would have to start answering the phone and taking orders because anybody that knows Orvis now or during the days when I was there, you know, the Orvis

Tom Rosenbauer (17:06.158)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:20.643)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (17:28.264)
Order takers. That was like a whole big thing in Roanoke. It was a whole separate thing.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:29.166)
.

Yeah, it was all internet. By then, it was all internet orders, Excuse me.

Jason Elkins (17:35.916)
Or yeah, or internet. to hear the people there in Vermont that, you know, they'd say, well, one minute I was out, you know, sweeping the, the, the parking lot out in of the store. The next minute I was stocking the fly bins. Next minute I was on the phone taking orders for waiters or whatever. It's, was, was, was quite a bit different. And, did you, you're still living in Vermont.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:51.256)
Yeah. Right, yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (17:59.608)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (18:04.852)
I kind of know this, but I'm going to ask this anyway. You thought maybe you'd stay at Orvis for a couple of years. I'm just curious, like, does the Vermont part of this fit into your equation? Did you just do you just love Vermont or was it more the job that kept you around combination? I was just curious.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:05.07)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:22.744)
Yeah, was the job. I Vermont's nice. It's rural. It's quiet. It's peaceful. It's safe. The fishing is better other places, but I've learned to, I've learned to embrace the, you know, the small stream mountain trout that we have. And, you know, if you need, if you want better fishing, bigger fish, hatches, whatever you, you go somewhere else.

Jason Elkins (18:48.332)
You know, when I had the opportunity to go to Orvis, I think some of our listeners know, you know, that I went to Orvis to work in the travel department as the my first position. There was fly fishing travel manager and I was in Montana before that and I was I had the drift boat. I was doing some guiding. I was the fishing was super, super important to me at that point in my life. And I remember thinking, wow, Vermont.

Tom Rosenbauer (18:57.56)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:07.723)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (19:16.754)
and I was like, okay, I can do that because I'm going to have the opportunity to travel, visit some of these other places, which I think is kind of a similar experience that you've had as well. You know, with your, with your position, you've got some opportunities to go out and visit some of these places as well. Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:32.898)
Yeah

Jason Elkins (19:35.178)
Yeah, yeah, so that I get that out of. I've been on trips with you. Let's what's the trip? Because you know the adventure travel podcast, I guess we should speak about a trip. What's it a trip or an adventure that you've had that really left a mark that maybe changed your life a little bit or just? Anything come to mind?

Tom Rosenbauer (19:48.078)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (19:54.862)
I would think my first trip to the Rocky Mountains, we had a gentleman named Vern Bresler who was a ran a lodge in Jackson Hole outside of Jackson Hole and Wilson. And he was a good, very close friend of the owner of Orvis, late Lee Perkins Sr., LHP as we called him. And Lee came to me one day and said, Tommy,

Jason Elkins (20:00.656)
Hmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:23.372)
He always got me telling me, we got to get you out West. You need more experience. And he sent me out to spend a couple of weeks with Vern and his sons. And I stayed at the ranch and, you know, caught my first cutthroat and, learned what Rocky mountain fly fishing was all about. And that was probably one of the most influential, trips, just my first trip outside of the East to see what the rest of the world was like. And then.

Jason Elkins (20:50.315)
Right.

Tom Rosenbauer (20:53.006)
I guess Christmas Island was my first saltwater experience. He started, Lee started sending me, because at the time, I think I started editing the Orvis News, which is the publication that I answered the help wanted ad from. And I took that over and needed more experience to write the stories and so on.

Jason Elkins (21:12.743)
Mm-hmm, that's cool.

Tom Rosenbauer (21:21.762)
So he sent me a lot up to a lot of places, Christmas Island and Camp Chattka and Bahamas. So I got to do things that, you know, a kid that didn't grow up with much money or parents never traveled outside the United States, I got to do a lot of things at Orvis that I never would have been able to do.

Jason Elkins (21:34.326)
Very, cool.

Jason Elkins (21:46.112)
Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there was a point during the last, you said 49 years, how long have been there?

Tom Rosenbauer (21:54.574)
No, yeah, 49 years, yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (21:57.246)
Okay. Do you think there was a point in that during those 49 years that you made a conscious decision to stick around until you became the Chief Enthusiast or was it kind of an accidental thing?

Tom Rosenbauer (22:09.228)
Yeah, you know, I never had a big life plan. I just kind of fell into things and I guess I made my own luck. You you make your own luck, but I don't know, maybe it was laziness or momentum, but I, you know, I enjoyed what I was doing for the most part and eventually made enough money to survive.

And yeah, just.

Jason Elkins (22:35.488)
You know, I. I think that's. It's one thing that's maybe a little unique about you compared to some of the other people that have. Come into the fly fishing business. I'm going to say for a period of time, you know, there's a lot of people you and I know that have that period of their life where they worked in the fly fishing business and then got distracted lot, lost interest, whatever what got. Yeah, yeah, that's where I was going with this was.

Tom Rosenbauer (22:56.394)
Right, yeah.

Got a real job. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (23:04.896)
Got a real job. And what I think's great about you is you've got that consistency that you called it. Maybe it was laziness. I'm not sure, but you've got a consistency that we generally don't see that often in the fly fishing. hate to say the word fly fishing bum because I don't think you are, but you kind of are. I don't know. Does that word resonate?

Tom Rosenbauer (23:24.386)
Yeah, I am. No, I am. I definitely doing it because I love to fly fish. I am a fly fishing bum. When I host trips, I do a lot of trip hosting now. And when people say, do you fish when you host those trips? I said, are you crazy? I wouldn't do this if I didn't fish every day.

Jason Elkins (23:29.919)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (23:34.184)
Yeah, okay, good.

Jason Elkins (23:45.612)
you

Tom, here's what I remember of leading trips with you. Is absolutely that. Because as you know, you and I know each other and I like to fish. I was very passionate about it. My son's middle name is Angler. It was a big thing for me. And when we were leading trips, I was much more likely to be back at the lodge with the guests in the evening, entertaining, just...

Tom Rosenbauer (24:14.434)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Elkins (24:17.59)
connecting, conversing, and they'd be like, where's Tom? Well, I saw him walking down the beach about two hours ago. I'm hoping he makes it back before dark.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:24.928)
Well...

Jason, I'll have you know I'm much better now because you were the host and I was like, don't know, the co-host. And now I'm a much better host. I'm back for dinner. I never thought I would be a good host on trips because I like to fish too much. But I'm really enjoying now the challenge of making sure that everyone's happy and

Jason Elkins (24:37.197)
You're like, Jason, you take care of them.

Tom Rosenbauer (24:56.478)
and everyone's having a great day and that they're matched with the right guy during the day. So I'm different now, Jason. I've grown up.

Jason Elkins (25:03.852)
I know, and I say it jokingly because you're right. was more of a, Jason's job is to go along, make sure, he's the one that put together the trip, he's the one that everybody and he's kind of has, that was my job and you were there as the Chief Enthusiast.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:11.342)
you

Tom Rosenbauer (25:15.628)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:23.63)
I wasn't officially the Chief Enthusiast then.

Jason Elkins (25:29.164)
Well, that was, I would have used that term at the time. And it was, and it was so much fun having you along because you know, you would take time out of the day to spend with guests and, teach them things and have conversations about things. And everybody just always enjoyed having you along. And I think you were brilliant. You're like, yeah, Jason's got this. I need to go explore a little bit. If I find something cool, I'll come back and tell everybody about it. So it was, uh, was just a lot of fun. And every once in a while, like, especially like great at the beginning.

Tom Rosenbauer (25:48.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (25:58.444)
before the guests arrived or after the guests left, I got to go with you and that was fun too. So, yep, lot of fun. So, what's, I'm trying to think here. What's, are you gonna stay in Vermont? I'm just gonna ask you this. Maybe you shouldn't answer this. I'm sure you've had conversations with Robin about it, but.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:02.691)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:16.074)
I guess.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:24.008)
Yeah, well, we both love Vermont. My wife and I both love Vermont. My kid loves Vermont. And we've, I've thought of eventually spending half the year in Chile because I've hosted a lot of trips in Chile and I've done a lot of filming for a TV show called the New Fly Fisher in Chile. And I love the people. I love Patagonia and I'm

Jason Elkins (26:39.211)
Mmm.

Tom Rosenbauer (26:53.87)
You know, I think I'll stay in Vermont. I got too much fly tying stuff to move anywhere and too many books to move anywhere.

Jason Elkins (27:05.43)
That can make it challenging.

Tom Rosenbauer (27:06.86)
And you know, we love it here. live in a rural setting. have no visible neighbors. I live in a dairy farm valley and I have a trout stream in my backyard and we have lots of cool places to hike. You know, we forage a lot. We hunt mushrooms and my kid is really into foraging and botany. So, you know, it's a good place to be for what we want to do.

Jason Elkins (27:34.444)
Most of the stuff that you're and part of why I wanted to ask that is most of the stuff that you're doing for Orvis now.

I guess I'm going to ask you, are you working remotely? Could you work remotely? Are you still going into the office?

Tom Rosenbauer (27:47.98)
yes, starting during COVID, I of course started working remotely as everyone did. And I just never went back. I set up a live streaming video studio in my right here. It's right behind me to do live streaming fly tying lessons because we realized pretty early on during COVID that, hey, we got to keep our customers engaged. And what are we going to do to keep them engaged with with fly fishing with Orvis? So I would do, you know,

Jason Elkins (28:00.46)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (28:09.813)
Hmm?

Tom Rosenbauer (28:18.126)
lectures on leaders and knots and fishing and I do live fly tying. So I developed three cameras set up for doing fly tying. And then I set up my podcast studio in the basement in a quiet room. And after COVID was pretty much over, a lot of people didn't go back to the office as with a lot of companies. And so I'm

Jason Elkins (28:42.549)
Mm-hmm, right.

Tom Rosenbauer (28:46.318)
I am very happy working here at home. I do go into the office once a week or so because I'm very close to the product developers. And we're good friends and fishing buddies. And of course, I need to know the products. So I spent some time with the product developers. Yeah, they are because they need to interact. They need to have samples in front of them and interact. So they're going back to

Jason Elkins (29:05.971)
Are most of them still working in the office or still or they are now right?

Tom Rosenbauer (29:16.236)
the office most days.

Jason Elkins (29:18.956)
curious because the your podcast has been around for a long time. You're doing it when I was there. When we went into COVID, it sounds like you came up, okay, we need to do some things, these live stream classes, lessons, stuff like that. I get that you started those as a result of COVID, right?

Tom Rosenbauer (29:30.926)
Yeah. huh. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (29:36.226)
Yeah, we started it within a couple of weeks of the lockdown. said, we got to do something.

Jason Elkins (29:38.956)
Okay. So what was, what happened? I'm curious, like, did that work well? What happened to your, like, did the podcast become more popular during COVID? Did, and then...

Tom Rosenbauer (29:52.494)
It's funny, the podcasts downloads actually went down during COVID. They were popular, but the download numbers went down and I believe it was because people weren't commuting. And they didn't have the drive, they didn't have the drive time. So they were spending more time, I think, watching video than they were listening to audio. And so, but you know, they were still popular and they,

Jason Elkins (30:07.104)
I was, I was wondering about that.

Jason Elkins (30:17.107)
Mm-hmm. Yep, that makes sense.

Tom Rosenbauer (30:21.784)
to continue them, I, and then I had more time because I was here at home all the time. So I I was able to, I was able to do them once a week.

Jason Elkins (30:31.114)
Okay. And then with the videos that you started, did you continue those or are still doing those and what happened as we came out of COVID?

Tom Rosenbauer (30:39.638)
I do, what I do now is once a month, I get on with two other, two really, two of the best fly tires in the world. Tim Flagler from New Jersey and Cheech from Flyfish Food in Utah and they're superb fly tires. And we have a live contest where we all tie the same fly live.

and people at the end get to vote on who tied the best fly. And we have a lot of fun. There's a lot of trash talking. And they're both good friends. people, it's very, very popular. People love it. So we still do that.

Jason Elkins (31:27.21)
Isn't it cool how we're able to connect with people? Like we were able, we had a lot of the technology before COVID, but after just this ability and the willingness for like you and I to get on this call, I'm in Columbia, you're in Vermont. We're sitting here looking at each other on the computer screen. You're doing these fly tying fun events with these other tires in different parts of the world. it's, it really seems to have kind of changed the nature of, how we communicate.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:41.89)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (31:50.499)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (31:55.626)
Like it's hard for me to imagine you not being at the office every day. You know, in Sunderland, you know, that's it's like. I don't know, because that was the thing I probably enjoyed the most about our office, honestly, was being in the office. Most of the jobs and careers and businesses I've had, I've been a little bit more of a lone wolf. And that's that's something I miss quite a bit is having that connectivity. But then also the technology now I can I can kind of be where I want to be.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:00.354)
Yeah, no I don't. I don't. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:15.758)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (32:24.828)
And that's pretty cool as well.

Tom Rosenbauer (32:24.845)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I miss, I definitely miss going into the office and I miss the face-to-face interaction. And so I do go in occasionally, but you know, it's just, it's this easier and more efficient to work here.

Jason Elkins (32:43.552)
Great. So, boy, you know, we've just quite a few things. I'm trying to, I've had enough conversations with you. like, I, did I discuss this now? Or I just happen to know this about you from the past. I'm curious, what's, is there anything big and kind of exciting or new that you're super passionate about that you want to share with our listeners?

Tom Rosenbauer (32:56.878)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (33:07.758)
Well, know, fly fishing is a gear oriented business, right? And so there's always every year there's new stuff, there's new waiters, there's new waiting boots, there's new rods, lines, leaders, whatever. so that's always, mean, I'm interested in it. I know customers are interested in it too. so, and working closely with the product developers, I get to see the new

the new toys, because it's all about the toys. And, you know, I write tech bulletins about the products to be used in our retail stores and with our dealers. so that's always and then and then the past few years, I've started to host a lot more trips, international, mostly international trips. And that and that I take great pleasure in.

It just gets me to some cool places and meet really interesting people. yeah, so that's become a big part of my job now.

Jason Elkins (34:09.792)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (34:18.38)
Do have a place that's kind of on your, I always hate the question, what's your favorite place? I kind of asked you if you had memories of a particular trip, but I'm not going to ask you specifically what's your favorite place, but are there any places or destinations that you kind of have your sights on or that you're particularly interested in right now?

Tom Rosenbauer (34:23.341)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (34:38.296)
There are so many Jason that I can't begin to, I mean, I'm going to Spain, I'm hosting a trip to the Pyrenees in September. I've never been to Spain. I'm excited about that. There's a trout fishing venue in Northern Italy, which I would really love to go to. There's one in Slovenia, which I would love to go to.

Jason Elkins (34:40.401)
That's...

Tom Rosenbauer (35:05.164)
I've never been to New Zealand. I'd like to go to New Zealand. there are places in Vermont that I want to visit that I haven't seen. I'd like to go carp fishing on Lake Michigan, because I hear that's really exciting. And I love to fish for carp, which are very challenging, strong fish. So yeah, so many of them. mean, fly fishing isn't just about trout, right? People need to understand that.

Fly fishing, you can do it for sailfish, which I've never done. You can do it for marlin, which I've never done, which I want to do. You can do it for bass and panfish. there's just places that I haven't been to that I want to go to.

Jason Elkins (35:51.582)
And it's a great, maybe it's not an excuse for you, but I think for me sometimes it's like, I'm not sure excuse is the right word, but when you're into fishing, into fly fishing, there's so many great places, not just for the fishing, there's just interesting places. And sometimes it's like, well, for me, when I was really in the fishing business, many of the places that I had the opportunity to go to, I probably would not have gone to.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:06.488)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:21.056)
Had I not been so passionate about the fishing, I wouldn't have found myself spending so much time in Chile and Argentina or Africa or New Zealand and all these places that it was like I got to go one because I had a job that it made sense. I was running the fishing travel business. But also it's just it's just a great excuse to go to these go to these places. You actually.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:21.104)
yeah. yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:26.744)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:39.928)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (36:46.444)
Some of our listeners may have already heard about we had Jeremy Karine on the show who is, you know, is kind of, I guess I was his predecessor. that the right way to put this? He joined Orvis. Yeah, so I had hired him back in the day and and I something popped up in LinkedIn the other day that he it's like 13 years that he's been there does probably like you. You're like, wow, sometimes those.

Tom Rosenbauer (36:57.73)
Yeah, yeah, he's managing the fly fishing travel now.

Tom Rosenbauer (37:09.763)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:15.232)
those reminders, those social media reminders, those LinkedIn things come up and like, wow, I've kind of been around for a while. but just to imagine that he's been there that long. And so when you're leading these trips, are you working closely with Jeremy or, or the other, I w I would guess so. I kind of gathered that was the case. So, had a great conversation here with them on the show. So anybody that's particularly interested in fly fishing, fly fishing,

Tom Rosenbauer (37:28.718)
Yes, very closely, yeah. I mean, I talk to Jeremy probably three or four times a week, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (37:42.526)
Or of us go back and check out Jeremy's episode as well. He's just a, he's a neat person. There's so many great people.

Tom Rosenbauer (37:45.272)
Yeah.

We're co-hosting a trip to Iceland this summer in July, which I'm really excited about. Yeah, because I love hanging out with Jeremy. He's a great angler. so we're doing a, two of us are doing a trip to Iceland.

Jason Elkins (37:51.808)
Really?

Jason Elkins (38:02.026)
Okay. Anybody that's listening to this, whether, I don't know if you know, Jeremy, if you know, Tom, but I'll tell you that's a dream trip to go on a trip with you and Jeremy would be amazing. Like, yeah, I'm not sure by the time this episode gets released, I'm not sure if they'll have the spots, but definitely reach out. you know, either I'll connect, you know, whatever we'll figure out a way to connect everybody. Obviously we've got a link to the Orvis website.

Tom Rosenbauer (38:14.171)
I think there's a couple spaces left too.

Jason Elkins (38:31.692)
in the show notes and if there's a particular trip, if that's, you know, mentioned as well, I can throw in a link specifically to that trip. So after we're done with this conversation, we can discuss that. Yeah. So, so just look at the show notes because a trip with you and Jeremy would just be so much fun. I've done trips with you. I've done trips with Jeremy. I can just imagine what it would be like. So that's, that's very, cool. Tom, we've, we've discussed a lot of things. I know you, we could do like,

Tom Rosenbauer (38:39.544)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's on the website. Yeah.

Jason Elkins (38:59.798)
whole series of podcast episodes with you. That's why you already have a podcast because you've got a lot of stories and things to talk about. But I'm curious on this particular episode, what did I forget to ask you? What should I have asked you? Or what do you want to make sure our listeners know about you, life, fly fishing, or anything before we wrap this up?

Tom Rosenbauer (39:04.202)
Hahaha!

Tom Rosenbauer (39:21.73)
Well, I think that people get intimidated by fly fishing because they think it's really hard. They think it's really expensive, but it's not that hard. There are some, there are some muscle memory things that you need to learn, like any sport. It's, you know, it's a hand-eye coordination, but it, it's not that hard. And it's not, it doesn't have to be that expensive. You don't have to go to Iceland and buy, you know, thousand dollar fly rods. can, you could go around the corner with a

$200 route. recommend people spend at least $200 for a fly route if they want to do it. But you go around the corner and catch bass and pan fish. And I just got a book from a guy who wrote a book all about fishing. Is it Dallas or Houston? I'm gonna check. Dallas Fort Worth area. Fly fishing in the Dallas, I mean, would you think fly fishing in the Dallas Fort Worth area would be worth a book?

And it is, I've done it. So, you know, you don't have to be a world traveler and you don't have to spend a lot of money. It's just another way of fishing and I think it's a really fun way of fishing.

Jason Elkins (40:33.344)
You said you bought your first, was it your first rod at Western Otto? I'm trying to get my head around that. Western Otto. Okay, all right. Okay, I get that. Do you remember the first fish you caught on a fly?

Tom Rosenbauer (40:36.685)
Yeah.

It was a hardware store. It was a hardware store.

Tom Rosenbauer (40:46.613)
Yeah, I do.

Jason Elkins (40:48.318)
Okay, how much time and effort did you put into it before you caught that first fish? really? Well, you were just you were just talking about how was didn't need to be that intimidating.

Tom Rosenbauer (40:53.896)
years. Like two years. Like two years. Well, I, you know, I mean, when I first started out, I caught a lot of sunfish and small, large mouth bass and, you know, panfish, just, pumpkin seeds and bluegills and stuff like that. But trout fishing is hard. It's harder.

Jason Elkins (41:14.307)
Okay, all right. Well, that's okay. I'm happy clarified that because because I heard you saying people feel intimidated doesn't da da da da da and then I asked you how hard you had to work to catch your first fish and you said years, but you got some panfish.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:29.524)
yeah, I caught fish right off, but I didn't catch trout. I I didn't, I had to wait until I got a driver's license because in Rochester, there weren't any really good trout streams really close to home.

Jason Elkins (41:31.624)
Okay, that's.

Jason Elkins (41:38.017)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (41:44.47)
But you obviously enjoyed catching the panfish, the bluegills, all that stuff right off the bat, I'm guessing, right? Okay. So I wanted to mention that because if somebody thinks, I need to go invest all this money, waders, rods, all this stuff, learn how to tie flies before I ever catch a fish, that's not a true statement.

Tom Rosenbauer (41:47.692)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:00.194)
Yeah. No.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:08.086)
And also don't forget that in those days there were no fly fishing schools, there was no YouTube, there were no good books. So you had to hack your way through it. Now you can be up to speed in a couple of weeks by practicing and watching YouTube videos. So it's a lot easier learning curve than it used to be, so much easier.

Jason Elkins (42:14.059)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Elkins (42:32.308)
Right. For me, the thing that really kind of cracked the nut, if you recall that was I had, when I was in the army, I was going to Alaska, I was getting transferred up there and I thought I'm probably going to, you know, we stopped at a Cabela store in Nebraska or South Dakota, wherever it was on the way to Alaska. And I'd always been into fishing and I thought I need to.

Tom Rosenbauer (42:48.866)
you

Tom Rosenbauer (42:52.568)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (42:55.276)
get a fly. You know, I went into Cabela's. I don't think I went into Cabela's to buy a fly rod, but I went into Cabela's because it was Cabela's and we were driving by and I convinced myself I should spend a little bit of money on a fly rod. I bought probably the cheapest rod they had. That was like a seven or eight weight, which is kind of for bigger fish. Maybe I was going to, I don't know what I thought I was going to do, but then I went to Alaska, never pulled it out. Went fishing all the time, never pulled it out. Long story short is I get back to Wyoming and living in Wyoming and

I was just bored one day and I walked into a fly shop, which was very intimidating to be honest with you, because I didn't know anything. And I thought I was going to be embarrassed. And I walked in there and I said, look, I don't know anything, but I think it'd be really cool. I bought this fly rod. be really cool to catch a fish on it. And the guy looked at it and like, okay, whatever. But he was so nice. He, you know, got my line tied on a leader, gave me like a dozen flies and taught me how to tie the fly onto the end of the leader. That was it.

Tom Rosenbauer (43:34.018)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (43:54.312)
no technical nothing. just knew how to tie the fly onto the end of the leader. But what was great was he drew me a little map on a piece of paper and to a little place he says, know, go up this road to the end of this road. There's a gate, go through the gate, you know, go here, go there. And there's this tiny little stream. And I went there and I managed to get my rod rigged up. I managed to get the fly in the water and I caught a little brook trout.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:07.566)
.

Jason Elkins (44:24.972)
And I just almost I'm like feeling emotional right now. Just the memory of that little, you know, the brook trout ate the fly, tried, you know, took the fly. I kind of set the hook in intuitively like a trout fisherman does. And, you know, the brook trout was up in the grass behind me and I had to go get it. But I sat there, I got the fish back in the water and I was like, I just sat there for probably 30 minutes like, oh, my gosh, I think my life just changed. And I went back.

Tom Rosenbauer (44:41.314)
Yeah

Tom Rosenbauer (44:52.14)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Elkins (44:54.604)
And within a week I'd given all my conventional gear to my brother. I was like, I don't need this anymore. I don't really know how to fly fish, but if I can't catch a fish on a fly right now, I don't want to catch a fish. And I just went off the deep end and I was probably a year or so later. I was on the Bighorn river begging, you know, I'd gone through the fly tying class, learned a little bit. And then I went up to the Bighorn river in Montana and I was walking from lodge to lodge to the little fly shops and then.

I want a job, do anything, I'll dig holes, whatever. And then a few years later, I met you at Orpheus. And it totally changed my life. my point with that story is anybody that's listening to this, you don't need to go that extreme. But walk into a fly shop. Why not? Don't let anybody intimidate you.

Tom Rosenbauer (45:44.034)
Yeah, and it's, you you can buy lots of stuff on the internet, the independent fly shops and stores are the lifeblood of fly fishing. You you just can't, there's no substitute for that one-on-one interaction.

Jason Elkins (45:59.436)
Yeah. And most of them are so nice. I remember, I understand that there's some intimidation factor and there's some funny videos that we see online of people that, you and you've been involved in some of them that have just kind of been set to be a little bit funny. But, or I don't know if you've been involved, but you know, some of the ones I'm talking about and it can feel like maybe it's intimidating this and that, but just go in, you don't need, there's places, you know, I've worked at fly shops where we rented equipment.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:06.094)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:27.968)
Yeah.

Jason Elkins (46:28.044)
You know, I was on the Yellowstone River running a shop and people come in, we'd run them a rod, some waiters, give them some flies, draw, you know, kind of do the little map thing and they go out and catch some fish and they maybe spent, I don't know, 40 to 80 bucks. Maybe that's gone up a little bit, but to, know, and that's to go catch a trout on the Yellowstone River. So if there's, you know, get into it.

Tom Rosenbauer (46:51.414)
Yeah, and it's changed because in the old days, older days, you could go into a fly shop and there'd be a bunch of, know, robros, guides and stuff. They'd be talking off in the corner and they'd ignore you and maybe even make fun of you. And, you know, if you have that experience, just walk out and those kind of fly shops mostly aren't in business anymore. No, they didn't make it. But, you know, the good ones, the ones that are

Jason Elkins (47:13.698)
They didn't make it, did they?

Tom Rosenbauer (47:19.306)
are still around, they welcome people that come into the shop and they help them and they know they're going to have a customer for life if they treat them well.

Jason Elkins (47:30.154)
think that's because at one point, you know, there was a movie that came out called the river runs through it. And for awhile, there were all these fly shops and we, couldn't go on to Amazon and buy a fly rod or do any of this stuff. So they kind of just had this false sense of where a fly shop, if you want to go fishing, you got to deal with us, but it's not like that anymore. it? All right. So very, very cool. you're just a wealth of information. Anybody that's interested in fly fishing definitely should be listening to your podcast.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:32.098)
Hmm

Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (47:47.052)
Yeah, yeah, no, it's not. It's not.

Jason Elkins (47:59.978)
You've got a few a few books out there. What's the most recent book that you think somebody should go out and buy or consume on Audible?

Tom Rosenbauer (48:06.634)
There's one called fly fishing for trout the next level which is kind of like once you gotten started. What do you do next? That's probably the most recent

Jason Elkins (48:14.644)
Okay. And you were, did you write that one? Were you involved in that one? Okay. I thought you had, just want to be sure so when people go look for it, they can look for it by Tom Rosenbauer. All right. Very, cool. Tom.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:19.543)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:22.946)
Yeah, no, that's my book. But I think that most people, if they're interested, they're better off watching my YouTube videos or even better yet, the Orvis Learning Center, which is if you just Google Orvis Learning Center, you'll find it. But it's kind of a correspondence course in fly fishing.

Jason Elkins (48:47.712)
So what I heard you just say is, great, you're welcome to buy my bar. But my suggestion is go watch the free YouTube videos. That's what I just heard you say. That's what I like about you, Tom. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (48:52.622)
you

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. No, that's the best way to learn. That's the best way to learn. And they start from the very beginning. What's a fly rad? What's fly fishing? How do you do it? Because I'm pretty much an instructor of novices. That's what I love is it's not the advanced stuff, but teaching new people how to fly fish.

Jason Elkins (49:21.034)
And that's great. recognize that or of us, you if you look at it from a marketing strategy, you know, bring in new people and all this, but that's, you just fit well with that because of your personality and your love for mentoring people and, sharing your, your knowledge and your expertise. It's not about, you know, I'm sure you have meetings where we talk about how do we get more people into it, but for you personally, just knowing you, it's, really not that it's like, let's just.

expose people to this. Let's just, you know, instill that love of it. And I've always enjoyed that about you. So Tom, thank you. Thank you so much. Really. This is a really, like I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I was intimidated, but we got through it. Hopefully you walk away from this thing and wow, that was pretty cool to chat with Jason again. It was definitely great to connect with you and I look forward to doing more of it in the future. Thanks, Tom.

Tom Rosenbauer (49:51.0)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (50:01.027)
Yeah.

Tom Rosenbauer (50:10.946)
Yeah, it was fun, Jason. It was great catching up with you. We've always been good friends and great to reconnect.

Jason Elkins (50:19.564)
All right, let's do it again soon. Let's not wait so long next time. Actually. And I'm just up the road from Chile right now and I kind of don't. I mean, I say I live here, but everything's in my suitcase and every month I have to decide every month. I have to decide if I'm going to stay in the Airbnb any longer. So I, know, and actually there's another gentleman that's going to, we've got an episode coming out, David Long from echo echo Patagonia.

Tom Rosenbauer (50:22.324)
Alright, I'm available anytime you want.

Tom Rosenbauer (50:32.073)
Hahaha!

Jason Elkins (50:45.452)
is another episode that's coming out and he's down in Chile as well. maybe we'll meet up down in that neck of the woods. I think you'll enjoy him as well. All right. Thanks, Tom. You have a great day. We'll talk to you soon.

Tom Rosenbauer (50:53.6)
OK, all right, sounds good.

Thank you, Jason.