Adventure Travel with Nuno Santos Fernandes - Walking Mentorship

Guest Bio

Nuno Santos Fernandes is a mentor and partner at Walking Mentorship, a Portugal-based personal and team development company that uses walking in nature as a powerful setting for reflection, clarity, and growth. A lifelong walker with a curiosity for paths less traveled, Nuno’s professional journey has moved through marketing, entrepreneurship, animal care, environmental work, veterinary clinics, land management, agriculture, forestry, and development projects. His wide-ranging experience has given him a practical, grounded perspective on people, purpose, and the many ways life can unfold.

After joining one of Walking Mentorship’s early Camino de Santiago programs, Nuno experienced firsthand how walking, thoughtful prompts, and open conversation could help people make meaningful decisions and reconnect with what matters most. That experience changed the direction of his life, and he has continued walking, mentoring, and helping others slow down ever since.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Nuno Santos Fernandes, mentor and partner at Walking Mentorship, about the connection between walking, nature, reflection, and personal transformation.

Nuno explains that Walking Mentorship is not a trekking company or a traditional adventure travel operator. Instead, the company creates personal and team development programs that are elevated by walking in nature. The physical journey is intentional, but the real focus is the inner journey: slowing down, reconnecting, gaining perspective, and taking action in everyday life.

The conversation explores Nuno’s path from an introspective child and wide-ranging entrepreneur to someone deeply committed to helping people live with more awareness and intention. He shares how a Camino de Santiago experience introduced him to Walking Mentorship, helped him make long-postponed decisions, and eventually led him to join the organization as a partner. Along the way, Jason and Nuno discuss emotional intelligence, the value of slowing down, why nature helps people think more clearly, and how walking side by side can create space for honest conversation.

Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Some guests support the show through paid production features, cross-promotion, referrals, or other partnerships. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.

Learn more about the Big World Made Small Podcast and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers on our website.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here with us today, and also very excited to have my guest today. We've got Nuno Santos Fernandez. He is mentor and partner with Walking Mentorship. Nuno, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Thank you, Jason. Happy to be here. Really an honor.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

It's going to be a fascinating conversation for me, hopefully for you as well, because I get to I get to hear your story and kind of figure out how you got from where you were to where you are now. Before we do that, I want to give our listeners kind of an opportunity to understand, you know, what is walking mentorship? We're going to get into it quite a bit later in the conversation, but for now, kind of what's the 30, 60 second elevator pitch on what is walking mentorship? What do you guys do?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Well, very shortly we do personal or team development programs that are elevated by walking in nature. So basically we take people to walk in nature and use that as co-facilitator for whatever we're working on.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Okay. It sounds like you've practiced that a few times, or or you've just got it really clear in your head what you do. So that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

I think it's just clear. But yes, I've I have said that a few times.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I because seriously, like I didn't just ask that question for the listeners. I was, you know, I mean, you and I spoke a couple weeks ago, but when we spoke, I said, don't tell me too much now, because when we come back and record, I want it to be spontaneous and I want to be learning just as much as our listeners at the same time. So thank you for that. We're gonna get more into the details of what that's all about. Well, let me ask you this though. Let I think where is sometimes an important question because I speak with people around the world. Where are you located? Where do you guys work? And what should our listeners know about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Well, so both me and my business partner and the founder of Walking Mentorship, we are based in Portugal, around Lisbon, but actually we work throughout Europe, uh a bit in the US, and now we're also working in Asia, in Japan. And actually this year we'll have for the first time a program in Africa. So we're kind of moving around.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Now, are your typical guests people that live locally and go on these trips with you? Or do you go like if you do something in Africa, will you get people from all over the world or in Japan? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Mostly they come from several different places. I would say uh uh a large percentage from Europe and the US, I would say, but then South America, Asia, Australia, and Africa, everywhere, really.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Okay. All right, very cool. Help me understand the difference between like you didn't show up and say, Jason, we're a trekking company. So help me understand the difference between a trekking company and walking mentorship.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Well, that's fundamental for us. Actually, one of the things we sometimes struggle to make clear to our potential clients. We don't organize walks, we don't organize trekking expeditions, we organize self-development or team development programs. The fact that they are, as I mentioned, elevated or facilitated while walking in nature, it's by design, it's intentional and it is fundamental to the process. But the goal is not to take you on a nice hike or a nice trek. It's to take you on an inner travel, an inner voyage, let's say where the the outside is helping you to go through that transformation process. But it's about your internal trip, your internal flight, let's say, more than your external walk.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

I I love that concept. And it as I listened to you say that it you know, I think of things like you know climbing Mount Kilimanjaro is a is a personal thing that's about over you know overcoming things and pushing yourself and uh and all that. So I think that some of those things can just happen by just people doing uh uh big physical, big physical activities. But I'm curious with what you're doing, uh is there an element of pushing themselves? Like so somebody listening to this is like, okay, I'm gonna go work on my internal demons because Nuno's gonna have me hiking, you know, 25 miles a day in the sleet and the rain and and all that stuff, or is it not quite that hardcore? How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So maybe starting by the end, we don't uh we don't see the walking or the nature as extreme. We see them as help, as facilitators, as I mentioned. So we don't really go for very extreme things and we try to adjust always to the to the participants' level. So, you know, it's good to go a bit off your comfort zone, but not into survival mode, because then it kind of makes it hard to reflect. I would say the big difference, and let's say the the what we try to do really in a in a deliberate way is to create the conditions that that process, which naturally I think will happen whenever you go on a kind of a pilgrimage or a long walk or climbing Kilimanjar, whatever that is, naturally you will go into a reflective mode. I mean, the fact that there are a lot of studies these days about the impacts of walking in nature, probably that's very much related to our own nature. I mean, we've been in this planet for 300,000 years, and we've been walking the vast majority of that time. We've domesticated horses 10,000 years ago, so the the the majority of the time we were walking, not doing anything else. Not driving, not riding, not you know, not anything, just walking. So walking and walking in nature, obviously, which is our natural environment, would be the the typical behavior of a human for the vast majority of our existence. So just being there in that natural environment kind of creates the ideal conditions for a good reflective mode, a good moment to really think deeply. And what we try to do is to create a structure of prompts and also of let's say uh a medium, a support, where you are kind of guided in that reflection so that you create a structure, a flow, and also that you have the opportunity to register, you know, to take note of what are the highlights, the insights, the the clarities that you gain throughout that walk. And that way you really take the best out of that process. Whereas if you just do the walk, you will probably get clarity on many things, but most likely it will be either scattered or might in the end be lost because you just, you know, you go back home, back to your day-to-day life, and everything is left behind. Whereas we always try to help you create an action plan to actually bring the decisions, the clarity, the insight that you have, and the decisions that you've made into your future, bring them to an action plan and bring them to your life the next day. So when you go back home, take it with you and start at least moving, even if it's just a little step a day in the direction that you want to go.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I love it. Um, you know, and as I was listening to you, uh you said, well, we've been walking forever. And yes, I get the point you're saying. And it also came up to me that, well, but we've kind of gotten away from that as a society. So yes, we still have the ability to walk. There's still benefits of walking, but I suspect that maybe our listeners are a little bit more active than the average, uh, the average person out there. But uh, yeah, there's I suspect a lot of your clients haven't really gone on a walk in a while, or at least, you know, or they're being purposeful about joining one of your programs because they know that they haven't been either on a walk or in nature for quite a while. Is that is that accurate? Do you feel like you get a lot of people that are like, I know I need to get out and start moving, I know that I need to get out and connect with myself and nature as opposed to doom scrolling on my phone, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, right. Yeah, that that does happen quite a lot, and uh especially in our immersive programs, which are let's say our flagship program, a week-long program, where we go on these pilgrimages or long hikes, typically which are group programs where people join. So the groups are just naturally formed, people just join the uh random group, and um and those people are usually quite intentional and quite deliberate about that. Let's say they help it, kind of joins the several benefits. So you go to a beautiful destination that you like, you go for a walk, which probably you know it's good for you, and you're gonna reflect on your life and probably come up with a better action plan to improve your life. So it builds on on the three, let's say, the three levels. But when we do corporate programs where people, although we are very clear that it should always be a voluntary activity, you should never mandate your employees to join. Yeah, that's it. That never happens. Never happens ever, ever.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

I've worked in the corporate world. I remember volunteer, I think they call it. You're volunteering to do it, but you're told that that you're gonna volunteer. Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Well, we we have a joke in Portuguese which is the father who tells to his son, My dear son, whether you like it or not, you're gonna be a volunteer firefighter. So Okay. It's kind of, you know, but well, we are still insistent and we really try to make that clear that it should be a volunteer activity, but still there are many ways where people will not feel comfortable to say, no, I'm not joining a team-building activity, and of course we understand that.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Well, let me let me just while we're there, because it's kind of a fascinating I've I'm envisioning it. I was I spent four and a half years in the army, so I got volunteered a lot. And I didn't have a choice. But if somebody shows up on a corporate group, have you had people kind of pull you aside, or is it just obvious that they didn't really want to be there? And um, what is I don't want you to necessarily give away your secrets, but like what do you do in that situation where someone shows up corporate group? I don't really want to be here. I don't know what I just want to know how you handled that.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Let's say that we've never had anyone, as far as I remember, saying they don't want to be here. Usually they come up with a sudden disease or sprain or something. But I would say the most challenging situation we've had was on a day uh corporate program, we specifically told, well, have weather gear with you, have rain protection because it's gonna rain the full day. And a lady came with high heels and you know, totally unprepared for so she got soaked on the first five minutes and basically she had to go back into the car because obviously it was impossible for her to walk with us. She planned that very well, didn't she? Well, if that's what she wanted, you know. If you want, you find a way. If you don't want, you find an excuse.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

So in the end, there's a lot we don't want to make this sound like it's torture, because I'm sure maybe some of your future clients might be listening to this. So someone in a corporate HR department, you know, thinking about doing a team building activity. We don't want to make it sound like it's horrible. But I suspect you've also had people at the end of the experience that either you just kind of intuitively knew maybe didn't really want to do it or weren't that excited about it, but then you saw a shift in them and you and because that's the idea of doing this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yes. Well, I I would say um I I think as in everything, some people will enjoy it more than others, and some people will take more benefit than others. And it's always a very personal journey, even if it's a team building um process, then each person is uh a person. But um usually people in the end, well, they they get the kick from the the the all the endorphins and all the natural processes that go inside. So usually people get happy with that. That's a natural process our bodies are designed to generate, so that always helps. But also in most cases, I can I can remember as you were asking the question, I can remember a case of a participant. He was I mean, if you ask me, I would say he was hating the program the whole week. Honestly, I was sorry for the guy. I thought this guy is having the worst week of his life. I mean, he he got into a fist fight into with some random guy, you know, that had nothing to do with the group. He got lost, he got sick, you know, he got you know a cold and and was you know, he was having a horrible, in my opinion, a horrible time. And interestingly enough, spontaneously without any prompt from our side, he reached out after two years saying I want to say thank you because you gave me one of the best weeks of my life. Wow. So I don't in his case, I actually thought it was a bit of a torture. For most people, our program programs are really very enjoyable, and I mean we don't walk 25 miles a day. We don't like to talk about miles, actually, we don't like to put the focus there because what we try to do very honestly is to adjust to give you sufficient challenge physically to make it you know kick in, to make it be impactful, but not really make it so hard that it's you know that you're thankful you suffering that you're already, you know. Like like for instance, we strongly encourage people to bring their own backpacks. Actually, we we use that as a metaphor for life. If you put too little inside, you will miss things, but if you put too many things inside, you'll probably be overburdened. So it's kind of a good way to think about life and to understand that we need far less than we usually think. But then if people have a back problem or for some reason they're suffering, of course, we we find alternatives and we find, you know, uh baggage trends or whatever. So this is always to create conditions that you are in the best possible uh situation to reflect about your life, to gain clarity about where you are, your reality map, what you want to really improve into your food future. So when you look into the future, you gain perspective into that future, and you can really think where you want to have a better life in in the doesn't matter if it's six months, one year, three years, we we usually say, Well, don't go beyond one year because that's usually science fiction, because we don't know what's gonna happen. But anyway, if you start planning, if you start at least thinking, well, I I want to uh you know be fitter, sleeping better, having a better relationship with my kids, having a better work-life balance, whatever that is. And if you start, you know, you gain clarity on that, you you are very specific, you create uh an action plan, whatever that might be, you need to be creative there. And then when you look back and you see where you were, and then you see where you got, and you see how much life can change by little incremental changes, just like walking. One step at a time, right? One step at a time. All right. So so you know it's it's all there. It's all there. It's kind of kind of flows naturally into it.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

I think I want to address um one thing that I've heard from a lot of operators that do tracks and you know, things that are kind of more physically challenged, whether that's bicycling or skiing or whatever. A common thing that I hear is people and even from guests, you know, I've worked with a lot of guests in the past. And there's that concern about, well, what if I'm the slowest one? Right. I think a lot of people don't want to be the one slowing down the group. And I think that comes up a lot. I think you get a group of 12 people, 10 of them are coming into this thinking, I don't want to slow down the group. And obviously, you know, so how do you manage that? How do you address that with either with a corporate person that's thinking about setting something up or a a client, potential client that's thinking about actually I don't even like client, a potential participant, whatever you want? Participant, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

That's how we call them. Yeah. Yeah. Um well that's that's a very interesting question, actually, Jason, and thank you. Our programs, all our programs, from two-hour programs to a full week or three months programs, they all go through four major moments. And interestingly enough, the first one is slow down. So the first thing we ask of people is really to slow down. So whenever you say, Oh, I don't want to be the slowest, well, the first thing we're gonna ask of you is to be the slowest, please slow down. I'm happy I asked this question. People need to hear this. You know, because we are overly obsessed with efficiency and productivity, and many of the most important things in life are not about being fast or productive or efficient, but going deep, going, you know, fully, being present, and that requires you to slow down. And you know, we were not designed to drive cars at 200 uh kilometers per hour or flying planes at whatever. We were designed to walk at I mean two or three miles per hour. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

That's right, because you were out you were looking for berries or nuts or exactly game or something like that. And if you walk too fast, you probably dismiss everything, right? You just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Oh, yeah, I'm starting to see how this is a good idea. We don't we really don't encourage people to try to be fast, uh on the contrary, and we even do the deliberate exercise, which is now try to walk as slow as you can over there. People really struggle with that, yeah. But it kind of changes the focus from how can how can I not be the slowest to am I being the fastest? So I need to slow down, I need to pace myself. So but anyway, I will take just the opportunity to say so. We always go through these four moments, and the first one is slow down, and the second one is reconnect, and again, reconnect, reconnect with yourself, with your speed, with whatever feels right for you. We always say the right pace is your pace. So don't force yourself into a different pace. And when you invite people to reflect, and actually you invite them either to have individual reflection, so walking on their own and reflecting about whatever the prompt is there, or you invite them to have a conversation with another participant about or or or one of the mentors, it rotates, it goes through everyone. When you start thinking deeply, usually you don't walk very fast, you start slowing down naturally. So again, you kind of take the focus out of that. Third moment is gain perspective. So look into the future, look into the future you would like to have, not just any future or not what's gonna happen, but actually, if I can think about my future, if I can think of myself in one year, where do I want to be? What are the the meaningful things that I really want to make sure are gonna be there in one year? So, how I want the relationship with my kids to be, how I want the relationship with my wife, or my parents, or my boss, my colleagues, the people working with me. You know, do I want my health to be? Where do I want to live? My planning, and and by looking into the future again, you stop thinking about moving very fast because you're just trying to gain perspective. So you want to be clear about where where you're looking, you're not getting there yet. So only the last moment, which is take action, invites you to actually design an action plan to move from where you are from your reality map today to that desired future. Now in order to do that, again, you cannot be rushing. You need to start step by step from where you are now, and then you need to move really in incremental, and we are very clear about this. You need to usually the big changes don't come from huge things you're gonna change in your life, they come from the small things you change every day and you keep going. And so it's always about this consistency, this more endurance than intensity. And this kind of flows naturally. Of course, for some people this is extremely challenging, and for many people these days, this is a big challenge. But but it is the design of our program. So it's maybe that's well actually interesting insight you're giving me that probably because we're going a bit against the current, it might be one of the things that really helps people to gain clarity because it kind of shifts the way you're looking at life, right? Not not the usual rush rush.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I love that response because you you nail it like almost to the point I'm imagining saying, okay, look, the problem isn't there's not gonna be no problem with you being the slowest. No, we're gonna work on making sure you're not the fastest. Yeah. And that's gonna ease a lot of people's concerns because they're like, okay, I don't have to worry about being you know, the guy, you know, three miles behind everybody else, uh, you know, yeah, with blisters on my feet, thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna miss dinner and everybody's gonna be upset with me.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

It's not never happened. Never happened. Um actually with many groups we've had people walking very slow, and it's actually an int an interesting also awareness, which is walking slower in the end uses more energy than walking faster because you end up having Having more time active because if you're walking the same distance, if you take longer, you're gonna be up carrying your backpack or at the very least your own weight for longer if you're walking slower. So if you're walking at your natural steady pace, you're gonna get there faster, and it's actually less demanding. But for some people, it's really important to take longer because they really need to go through the process. And so we just allow for that. We we don't fight against that. And if for some reason someone is really struggling, and and you mentioned blisters, usually with good preparation. Well, and preparation, it's not nothing extreme. You don't need to prepare months in advance, it's just that you need to take care about your gear and you need to do a little bit of preparation. Make sure you see we got her comfortable. Make sure they are comfortable and worn, so they're not brand new. It's not a good idea to bring brand new, and make sure your socks are good and you keep changing your socks not to get your feet soggy and wet and hot, because that's usually where blisters happen. So you prevent blisters most of the time, and they don't happen for most people.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

But then, I mean again, it's a it's a process of the main thing is the reflection process. So then we always have also alternatives. This is not about punishing people or getting them suffering, you know, and and going through pain. It's it's about sometimes they tur the internal pains, those are the ones you really have to go through.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

And those can be tough, but because we we spend so much time avoiding things with phones or alcohol or really any, you know, I could lip. So many things, yeah. So many things. When you just I don't want I'm not oversimplifying it about what I you know, what comes into my mind, when you're just kind of out having a walk and you don't have those things, and you just kind of have your thoughts, especially if you guys are prompting and and providing, you know, I guess prompting, I'm just gonna say that. Uh something else interesting though when I was listening to you. I was like, it occurs to me that when I I walk a lot. I travel alone, I don't even have a car, everything I own is in my suitcase. So I tend to just walk around cities a lot, whether it's to go to the bank or coffee shop or whatever. But what I've noticed is I tend to walk pretty quick. And then in those moments where I've got a lot of things in my mind, I actually tend to like if it's important, I I've noticed that I do slow down. It's like, you know, some like if I've if I need to work something out, if I'm thinking about something, I just find myself just kind of just wandering aimlessly with no like, you know, and slowing down. And it feels like it works better for me. But I'm I suspect I would but I've never thought about it. Uh it just kind of happens. So you probably need to help people do that, it sounds like to slow down a little bit. You know, you said another thing that came up is I know that like in acting where people need to learn scripts or not even necessarily learn the words, but actually internalize the scripts. You know, whether they're a salesperson trying to internalize scripts or an actor or whatever, it's really important to move the body. You know, I've been through a few things where they say, you know, don't just sit on the couch and read the script over and over. You know, get out, walk around, move around, and that movement helps somehow helps the body and the brain just kind of internalize those things. And I've noticed I can learn things so much faster if I'm just walking around doing them. So it sounds like it's basically the same what you guys have figured out.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Definitely. I mean, yeah, well, we didn't we didn't figure it out, we were using it, but it's uh, you know, there's the the expression solvitura ambulando, so solve it by walking.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And uh and many, many um thinkers, philosophers use walking to to think and to make and to gain clarity. And actually it's these days you have a lot of science that can demonstrate the benefits of and actually just standing up and walking improves your attention. I think it's it's staggering, but uh I'm gonna say 30%, but I actually think it's much more than that. But even 30%, it's huge, right? So very simple things really have a huge impact in in the way our brain functions. And for me, this this is not science now, this is my opinion, okay? But for me, that's because that was our natural behavior as a species. So this thing of sitting at desks, it's very new. It's very new. I mean, even if you just go to our grandparents' generation, for most people, they would have active jobs, they would be moving around, they wouldn't be sitting at a desk. For most people, there would be already a few, well, maybe 20, 30 percent, would be sitting at desks, but the majority would be walking. So this idea that everyone is sitting in front of a computer working, this is just, you know, we're learning how to do this, and I don't I have doubts it is the best for us, at least for now. I I don't know about the future.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

I hear what you're saying, and you know, it's not it all kind of just makes sense if you think about it. Because like I'm thinking of like, well, if I want to connect with my kid, what's the best way to connect with my kid? That's to go for a walk. It's like I think most people listening to this would be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like, because even you know, playing video games, yeah. Does that does your kid want to play video games with you? Yeah, there's a good chance they probably do. But it's when you set aside all that stuff and go for a walk. That's when, like, I know with my son, because he's traveled with me quite a bit, we've spent a lot of time walking around in in interesting places. And that's where he starts sharing stories that I've never heard. You know, he's like, Oh, dad, do you remember that one time? And I'm like, Yeah, and he said, Well, I didn't tell you, but this is what I did. I did something bad, you know. And I'm like, but I feel like I want to tell you. I'm like, okay, great. Let's go. And those things come up generally when we're walking. And um, and I know like relationship therapists will say, go for a walk with your spouse. Like, one of the best things you could probably do is go for a you know, half-hour walk after dinner with your spouse every evening to yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

I can testify to that. I don't have the science to back this up, but actually, I well, here's the challenge if some researcher wants to pick this up, think that just as an hypothesis, the fact that we're that whenever you're walking with someone else, you already agreed on something, which is walking in the same direction at the same speed. You're already agreeing on something. Kind of, I don't know, I don't know what it is, but it's much easier to get in sync when you're when you're walking with someone and sync, you know, mentally to to get into the same thought process, the same rhythm and the same openness. There are there are a number of again, science does have a lot of information to give us about that, but when we are walking with with a wide horizon, our um focus turns from the closed focus, so the focused on a uh specific target, to a more wide awareness of reality. And that helps us feel much more relaxed because that means we're safe, everything is good. I can see my horizon, and there isn't a threat, and I'm relaxed. Because if a threat comes up, I will immediately focus, and so that will tell my brain I need to be attentive and ready to react.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Which is not a good state for problem solving or futurizing.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

And by the way, for well-being for your health system, because we're not supposed to be stressed 24-7, right? Stress is a response, healthy response, to a threat, to real or potential threat. So if you need to react to a challenge, then you stress can be helpful. But it was not we were not designed to have stress on a permanent basis. And the fact that we are permanently focusing is telling your brain, be on the alert, there is something, you know, there is something important here. So it's not and and the interesting thing is that when you go into that more relaxed, more open, wide vision uh state of mind, it's not that you're less productive or less able to think. You just think in a more relaxed and more open way. It's actually when most of the most productive and most innovative thinking comes from. It's not from the focus-driven Well, you know that the writer's block. If the writer comes to the computer and just stares at the computer, nothing seems to come up, and then he just goes out for a walk and suddenly all these ideas come into his mind. We we know all these things, and and just going back a bit to what you mentioned before, we well, we we didn't find anything out, we didn't create anything new. Actually, people have been going on pilgrimages, on long walks, or on initial walks, uh on walkabouts. I mean, this is something that exists in human cultures throughout the globe.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

And though I want to acknowledge when I say you figured it out, you you figured out a way to to help people, you know, or to support people in in their journeys and and do it as something meaningful, as opposed to just sitting in a room thinking about it. Yep, yep, it's pretty normal, that's how things should be, but not doing anything with it. You guys did something with it, you created an interesting um well, thank you. Yes, you know, an interesting program. Yeah, it's difficult. I also because I'd heard at some point in the past how it's like better to like if you're having a conf not a I shouldn't say conflict. Let's say you want to have a an important conversation with your partner. They say, you know, you shouldn't sit across the table from each other face to face is not necessarily a good way to work things out. And I've heard, you know, if it's gotta be go for a walk would be obviously the appropriate thing to discuss. But even if it's even they say like in a car, sometimes you can have more meaningful conversations in a car because you're sitting side by side as opposed to, you know, face to face, it's a it's a little you feel a little safer because it's not maybe as intimidating and pressure field. Whereas obviously taking a walk is a side-by-side thing. But also I'm just curious like I just got this other idea in my head. I suspect that if you go back in time, you know, we talked about people walking around. And I suspect if you're walking through the savannah in Africa by yourself, you're probably on a little bit more heightened state of alert. Because you're completely responsible for catching and seeing everything that might be a danger. Whereas I imagine if you're walking with a group of people or maybe at least even one other person, it probably provides a sense of safety. Subconsciously, do you think? Is this something you've thought of? Probably, or I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Of course, we are no, no, no. I think you're you're right. I think we are we are uh a social species. I mean, if you really think about human beings, the one thing that has allowed us to prosper and to develop is our capacity to cooperate and to actually be with each other and collaborate with each other. So definitely the fact that we are with a group of people gives us safety. The fact that we are even with just another person, it will also help us to feel safe and to feel more relaxed. Um, and I think actually that when you when you just to connect to that idea, when you go to that open view, so that wide view, more relaxed, it is not less attemptive. It is scanning for potential dangers. It's just that it's telling us I'm scanning and I'm not finding dangers. So you know, so that that feels safe because you're you're aware, you're attentive, you're not disconnected, you're actually paying attention, but you're just paying attention and you're letting your let's say the the back office is working on making sure everything is fine, and he's he's just telling you it's fine, there's no problem coming. And if some problem will come, then it will tell you, and then you will be at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Shift in shift into a different different mindset. Do you guys take because I suspect, and I think I even kind of heard you say it, there's moments for contemplation where maybe somebody in maybe your prompt is to walk alone. I don't know, to walk alone, to be with yourself, and then there's other moments where it makes sense to to maybe connect with somebody else, whether it's a mentor, somebody else in the group. So is that right? It sounds like you guys are conscious about there's alone time and then there's together time. And because there's benefits to both, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Definitely. So essentially we have group moments where the whole group is together, and there is that can be where we give a briefing which covers basic things like okay, we will start walking in five minutes and we will be walking on a longer, let's say we will have to walk for ten minutes along a road, so please be care be attentive of cars and you know. But then it invites you for a prompt. And usually at the slowdown step, as I already referred at the beginning, we might ask you to connect to very simple things. So try to pay attention to what you can hear, or pay attention to what you can see, what you can smell, how the ground beneath your feet feels, and connecting you to your body and asking you to be attentive to that really helps you to slow down, obviously, which is the goal. But also to be present, to be fully aware of your body and of where you are, and kind of take the attention a little bit away from the usual worries, problems, concerns, stresses of life, and just focus on that moment being present there, being aware. And that just by itself gives you a huge relief if you really go into that. That is something that you will do alone, of course. It's it does make sense to to do in prayers. But then let's say, okay, if you think a little bit about let's say by the end of the program, you're thinking of your action plan. And one of the things we invite people to do is when they they decide on some actions to identify what are challenges and solutions. Because typically our greatest enemies are ourselves. So when you look back at your life, if you look, there will be patterns, and usually the the sum of that. You can try to point the finger, but probably you need to point it in to you.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I remember a phrase it's like, wherever you go, there you are. Exactly. So you know, for people that tend to run away from things, their problems tend to follow them.

unknown 36:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

So so as we invite people to do this, you think about imagine for me, I hate going to the gym. I want to be fit, I want to be to you know, preserve my physical capacity and all that, but I hate going to the gym. It's just horrible. So, and I know I've I mean I've been one of those perfect gym clients which pay every month and never goes there.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

So I don't want to be and won't and won't like withdraw their plan, they'll keep paying monthly because if I cancel my plan, well then I'm a bad person and I can't follow through, so I'm just gonna keep paying. Next month.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

But so so if that that wasn't helping me, that was not working for me. Imagine if I'm going through I'm having this, so I'm aware of this challenge. I I know myself, I know I can enroll, and then oh sorry, there's a cat jumping here on the table. So it was not supposed to be here, but it's okay. So imagine I'm going through this and I'm saying, look, I'm really I don't know what to do because I've I've enrolled the gym, I've I've tried to do it, I put it in my agenda, but then you know I just don't do it. And if I have this conversation with someone else, very likely that that person will give will give me something obvious and say, Well, why don't you get a personal trainer that goes to your home? It might feel more expensive, but actually, if you actually do the sports, do the activity, it's much cheaper than paying for not doing, you know. So having a conversation with someone else can be very helpful. And I'm giving you kind of this anecdotal example, but in reality it's more than that, because whenever you put your thoughts into words, you are forced to organize them. So if I have to formulate something to convey to you, I need to organize it and put it out in a clear, perceivable way. And that's it. You're like, so shoot. Yeah, and sometimes it's already there, and you're you're you're speaking it out and you're ah, I see. But then there is this magic thing, which is if the other person is listening deeply, two things can happen. One thing is the person is listening to me, but actually will be seeing herself in what I'm saying, because many things we're all humans, you know, we're we all have the same weaknesses or similar ones at least. But then there's something else which I can just mirror it back to you, and I can say, Well, did you say you're paying to the gym for two years and you haven't set your foot there? And you you think that's okay? So you know, again, I'm coming with this very basic example, but it's the kind of thing where sometimes just listening to someone saying, Well, did you was this what you told me?

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Forces you to gain awareness and to say, Ooh, yes, that is what I've been doing. You're you're right.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

And yes, and do I want to do something about it? And then it's up to me. I might say, No, I'm just gonna keep paying the gym and that's fine. Or I can say, No, well, I really want to change this, and can you help me? And and having someone by your side, even if that person is not gonna give you the solution, because most solutions we have inside ourselves, it can help you to find the way to the solution.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Well, just the questions, right? I I think the power of questions is so maybe I'm having that conversation with you, or out on a walk, and you're, oh yeah, I've been paying for the gym for two years, and you know, so maybe I what is it, you know, what is it that you like? I mean, when I don't know, when you signed up for the gym, what did you imagine? Or what is it you dislike the most about the gym? And it could, you know, you might realize, oh my gosh, maybe it's just because I keep thinking I should go in the afternoon, or maybe I need a buddy, maybe I need a workout buddy, you know, maybe I'm lonely at the gym and I feel, you know, like there's all these younger people around me that have amazing bodies, and so maybe I just need a workout partner, you know. Yeah, and you might not even understand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, all those, and many times what what a conversation with someone else can give you is show you your blind spots because sometimes it's it's just there in front of you, but you're actually not seeing it. And it's not because you don't want to, it's because it's your blind spot. That's it. You're you're not just aware of it. And suddenly someone just tells you something uh that remind reminded me of an interesting situation with a uh top executive. He was really frustrated because he kept moving away from budgeting and they keep giving him budgeting. And he said, But but what's wrong with this guy? Why do they keep giving me this? I hate because I always fail. And someone said, Well, but if they keep giving it to you, probably you don't fail that much. You're probably pretty good because that's why they give you that. And he was like, Boom.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Because it his story in his head is I'm bad at that. I'm bad, and and somebody's but the reality, you know, was was the reverse.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

He was obviously good, otherwise, he wouldn't keep getting the job. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Well, it's that it creates a I guess they call it cognitive dissonance, where it's like there's the reality and then there's the story in your head, and what sometimes when you're faced to when you're forced to face it, oh geez, either my story is wrong or the reality is wrong. Can't we both do things? And I've learned that it's usually the story. I've I've learned to when I'm when I'm really, you know, like in a conversation with someone like I have this story in my head. I just want to put it out there. This is a story in my head that this is what's going on. Can you help me edit that story? Or is it or is it right? You know, it's it's kind of a good way to approach uh approach those things, I think.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

But definitely, uh that reminds me of an interesting expression that that is well, allegedly something goes like that guy lies like a white, like an eyewitness, meaning that eyewitnesses lie a lot. And and they actually do, because usually if you ask, Oh, did you see that car crash? And people say, Oh yes, I did. So when did you start looking at it? Well, I heard the crash and I looked. So you didn't actually see the crash, but naturally you created an a narrative inside your mind that made sense out of what you saw.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Because we gotta we gotta fill in the gaps to exactly our brain can't deal with so we fill in the gaps. I think it was Mark.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

We're not lying, you know, we're not deliberately lying, but actually our brain just creates this narrative that makes sense and it makes reality fit into that narrative.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

I saw I don't know in Portugal if you have the tooth fairy, but we have the tooth fairy when I was growing up and I saw the tooth fairy. It was nine probably nine or so. I saw the tooth fairy, and I was I had like seen her. Wings, I saw it all. And I told everybody that I saw the toothbret, described what she looked like, and just believed it 110%. And then at some point a little later on in life, when I learned some not everything is what you think it is. I remember when I learned some other people other figures weren't quite what I thought they were. The first thing I said was, well, what about the toothbert? Because I saw the toothbrush. And it was a good lesson actually for me. You know, it took me a few years to really learn it. But it was a good lesson for me. Like it's really interesting because you know, and it's it's uh it's it's pretty cool. Um okay, now we I gotta figure out how the heck did you get into this because I hear a lot of personal development. Maybe I'd use words like coaching, meditation, yoga, whatever. I just those are just words in the story in my head. So help me edit that story, Nuno. How like let's go back not just to when you join walking mentorship, but like let's go back to your childhood a little bit and just try and figure out a little bit about you that kind of I get that aha. Now I understand why he's doing this type of thing. So what was going on when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Thank you for that question. That is actually I think even insightful for me as you were mentioning it. So I was a very introvert kid, very um turned into my own thoughts. You could say reflective, yes, but but definitely very introvert. I so I had several people, close people, family people, who were very intelligent, very bright people who were very unsuccessful at being happy. People that you would say should have the intellectual skills to be very successful and lead happy lives, but some of them were even, you know, formally successful, but were unhappy the same. And that was always something that that stayed inside my mind and I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't you know, I couldn't make sense out of it. How come intelligent people are not successful and happy? Well I grew up of course, and and uh as you learned about the tooth fairy, I've learned that you know these things are not necessarily connected. But so I I I as I grew up, I I was always curious and interested in different things, and but I had no clue what I wanted to do. So when I was deciding what to go to the university, I had basically no clue what I wanted to do. So a colleague of mine told me she was gonna study study advertising, and I thought, advertising, yeah, working with models that must be cool. I went for advertising. It was as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I I can understand that. That's a reasonable decision when you're 19, 18, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah, yeah, 17, yeah. So uh that made sense back then, and of course, then I actually went through the the the learnings and it was very useful, but I definitely didn't want to do that. I came out and it was well, it wasn't nothing what I imagined. Um basically I I start I still started a uh a marketing business during my my university course. Great failure, so great learning. And then I came out and I was kind of upset, upset or um angry at people somehow. And I decided, no, I I love dogs much more than people, so I started a dog hotel. And I said, I'm gonna turn my back on people and just focus on the dogs, which is gonna be much better. And of course, a dog hotel depends on clients that are willing to pay for putting their dogs at the hotel.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Dogs are easy, it's the people.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

They're still the people are not so easy if the dogs could just walk themselves there and check in, it would have been a perfect place. So quickly enough, I had to, you know, figure it out and and and really realize as much as I could find people upsetting and sometimes frustrating, and I can still find that, but also fascinating and deeply lovable. So that kind of helped me move. So, well, then I'm gonna jump a little bit because otherwise I would be here for the next four hours, which doesn't make much sense and would be very interesting for other people. So um, so then while I worked through several different areas, I still actually I still have that business, a dog hotel, and I I still love dogs, but I also love people. And I then worked at a non-governmental agency, environmental, non-governmental agency. Worked, I had some veterinary clinics, I worked in many different things, essentially as an entrepreneur, very few stints working for other people. I did some real estate development, which was something very I found fascinating, very interesting, but not really my uh, you know, not where where I was happy. And I mean it's gonna make sense to uh just make sense of the question.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Okay, well, before we move on, I wanna I heard you say entrepreneurial stuff, very you know, didn't really like people, entrepreneur, like probably didn't want to work for people. Like to have that that, you know, depending on yourself type of thing. I guess what I want to ask is when you were younger, if you were to look back, and I know we can't change anything, I know you've got stories in your head that you've created, but when you were younger, if you were surrounded by people that were a little bit more um I don't know, maybe outgoing or encouraged. I don't I don't want to put words in your mouth because you didn't say anything about them not being outgoing. You just said that they weren't happy. And I just say that intelligent people, and I think this is I think a lot of people would agree on this. A lot of people that are pretty smart have a really hard time figuring out life.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

So where I'm going with this is if you'd had people when you were younger that were happy, do you think that that would have made your earlier years much easier? Do you think you would have gone a different direction? What impact do you think that would have had on you?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Speculation. It is, it's completely calls for speculation, as they would say in court, but I will speculate, I will indulge. Well, probably yes, but I don't think my life would be more interesting because of that.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

It would probably be different. But the thing is that the the experiences I had and and certainly the challenges I I went through, and some of them were were with very close people, family members very close, so specifically my parents and my father specifically. Those were very impactful, of course, and and they made me very aware of certain um certain aspects of the human experience, and as you were saying, how intelligent and capable people can be and successful and very unhappy, not only not happy, but actually very unhappy. And that always stuck with me. So jumping a few years ahead one day a friend of mine gave me a book. Well, he had read it, and he thought, Oh, I think you're gonna like this book. And it was Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. Because there are two Daniels in this area, so I think I'm giving the right one, but anyway. And uh Emotional Intelligence, it's it's a very simple, relatively small book, but I recommend anyone to read it, especially if you ever feel this questioning that I have how come intelligent people are not that successful or that um happy. And it really helped me to make sense of some things. And of course, there are if you look at it today, the book has been surpassed by many more knowledge that has been developed, a lot of research, a lot of new things. But let's say that the fundamentals there make full sense, which is we don't need only, let's say, the rational, the Carthesian intelligence, we need a number of other competencies social, relational, self-management, awareness of others, empathy, all these things that are that are as important or even more important to your happiness than actually being very intelligent. And that made me think back there and then that it would be really interesting if we could help people to develop those capacities because it's a shame that people that would have huge potential are not being able to express that potential, are not being are not enjoying their lives fully, because if maybe they could be helped to to find that.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Well, maybe just even just being a because a lot of really smart people, I believe, are brought up being told you're smart. That's like probably the worst thing you can say to a kid, I think. You know, is oh my god, you're so smart, you can figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

You're so smart, you can you can do anything you want.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

You can do anything, you're gonna be you could be an astronaut, you could be a lawyer, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Oh, so then you've got this kid grows up thinking, my entire identity is around my intelligence, my you know, not emotional intelligence, but my you know how smart I am. So the first time I run into something hard and I fail at it, it's a total identity disaster. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm not as smart as my parents thought I was, and oh, I'm gonna fail in life. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

I think it's worse than that. It's not it's not I'm not as smart as I'm not despite being smart, I fail.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

So what else do I have? So yeah, so why? How come? And again, if I'm so smart, things should be easy, and then you need to deal with challenges and difficulties, and and you need to be resilient and you need to persevere, and you need to keep and I mean there are so many things, and this is obviously um very, I think, very meaningful conversation to have, especially these days where we have this, I would say, the pandemic of kids with anxiety and feeling miserable, and well, I'm not even gonna go into the ugliest side of that. Which which really needs to concern us. And so to connect to your original question, what led me to pay to be attentive and to be open to these, let's say, issues of personal development was this questioning. How can we create conditions so that people and actually at the beginning I thought how can we create conditions so that kids can work on that early on so that you know in their future lives they will be in better, um, much more happy circumstances. Save them a lot of time and pain and effort and well the whole society, I would say, because then we all improve with that. And as as I was going through this awareness, it happened that my wife invited me to go walk the Camino de Santiago. So she arrived home one day and she just said, Look, I have good and bad news. I'm going to walk the Camino de Santiago and you're coming with me. And I said, Yeah, and what's the bad news? Good for you. But fine, that's gonna be fun. And so I went on this walk, not aware it was a mentorship program. It was actually one of the pilot programs from walking mentorship that the founder Joan, my part, my business partner, was hosting and and guiding and and facilitating. I had no clue, I just thought I'm gonna walk the Camino. Okay, that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

That's gonna be bothered to tell you about all the introspection and personality.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

No, no, no, she kept it simple. Yeah, she she she knows how to play. She's smart, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Because there's a lot of guys that would as soon as I said, Oh, there's gonna be mentors and you're gonna figure out what you want to do with your life and and connect with your deepest, darkest secrets and emotions, you'd be like, Yeah, have a fun trip, sweetheart.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah, exactly. So I think she was she's very smart emotionally and not only, but emotionally definitely. And so she invited me for that and we went on that walk. And it really allowed me to make decisions, important, relevant, impactful decisions, that I was that I had been postponing for decades. And and not only making the decisions, but actually feeling okay, feeling comfortable, absolutely at peace with my decisions.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

And that allowed me that's a hard spot to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Yeah, yeah. I was struggling with that. That meant disappointing people I love and people I respect. And that was a hard threshold to cross. But then it was such a huge, a powerful change in my life. So it really allowed me to move from kind of let's say the life that that had happened to me to the life I was choosing for myself. And that is, you know, fundamental and and really deeply impactful. And just to be clear, not to say that my life ever ended and then they lived happily ever after, it's not like that. Of course not. Life keeps going and the challenges keep coming and everything. But you are more intentional, where at least you are, I won't say at the driver's seat, but you are at the helm, which again you go with the current, you don't really control exactly where you're going. The sea still has a lot to do with what you're doing, but at least you are at the helm, and you can at least try to steer something in the direction that you want. And so that was like my entrance into or or my awareness of walking mentorship, and uh then well, I just kept coming for programs because I I had so much enjoyed it that I just I mean, I wouldn't go to every program, obviously it wouldn't make sense, but I kept coming year after year, and so eventually I I naturally joined. I mean, I then actually it was interesting in 2000. So this was beginning of 2016, then in 2000, the end of 2017. I think Joan invited me to co-create a program specifically for parents and kids. We always have this discussion. He says, I suggested it, I think he suggested it. So, well, again, our brains are creating narratives, we don't know.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

You guys run a walk and it just happened.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yeah, it just yeah, it just came up. So, and and we created a program for parents and kids, which we will be running again this year. We are we have been running every year ever since. And the collaboration and the the the work was so natural, so easy, that uh then in 2020 Jo invited me to actually join uh as a partner at Walking Mentorship. My other businesses allowed for that, so I was not at our at an operational level, so I could really um you know step out of that. Um and it was uh kind of okay, finally I know what I want to do when I grow up, you know. So that is I was almost 50, so easy.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

I I'm still trying to figure it out myself, honestly. Maybe I need to go on one of your programs. I guess I don't know, but I'm thinking some of the listeners might want me to ask you this, and I think I definitely want to ask you this, and we can figure out we can navigate how you want to respond because I don't want to get too personal. But you early on in the conversation, you kind of mentioned the four stages and the third stage, I'm gonna call the vision stage. I don't remember exactly what to call it, but what is the vision? Yeah, and then there's the okay, here's the game plan. So even without telling us what your vision was or what your game plan was, if you went back to that time and remembered, hopefully, if you do remember, what your vision was, what you came out, what what the plan was, does it align with what you ended up doing miraculously? Was or was it something totally different that then kind of shifted around? I I would just love to know, or was that first walk was like anybody that could get inside your head be like, yeah, he's gonna be a mentor a few years from now, he's gonna be a partner. What uh what can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

Well, first I I will share an expression. A friend of mine, a coach, whom I love. She always says, When you set yourself clear goals, then the universe conspires with you to make them happen. So I really believe there is some. I'm not gonna go into the mystical aspect of it. I just feel that when you have clear goals, generally things tend to align. Doesn't mean you get exactly what you wanted, but you're probably gonna get closer to there that than if you just have no clue. But um back then, my main vision about the future, or so my my vision exercise as you called it, essentially had to do with taking a lot of burdens and a lot of weight off my shoulders, a lot of responsibility I had taken on for other people that that I shouldn't be taking on. Let's say I don't blame them at all. I I blame myself and I know it's it has to do with the way I behave. It is still something I am working on. So although I did solve a significant number of situations there back then, this characteristic of mine did not change, so I keep working on it. Okay, so um this is something I think we need to be honest about, which is I don't think there is a magical one that solves problems. You just become more aware and you become more competent at dealing with your characteristics, which you know, we like people like to talk about strengths and weaknesses. I believe we have characteristics that can appear as strengths or weaknesses depending on context, on intensity, on you know, on how you have control or not over them.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

Right. I remember hearing kind of along the lines of um these things, you know, are they serving you? You know, is it okay? Um you know, I uh I like to sleep in just an example. I like to sleep in the morning, okay. Great, is that serving you? If it's serving you, fine, fine. Yeah, why not? If it's not, then maybe we need to figure out, you know, find something else that serves you better, as opposed to, you know, strengths and weaknesses. Cause because you're right, because one person's weakness. I mean, maybe also their strength, just depending on like you said, like context and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Look, a driven person can be a workaholic, can be seen as a bully, can be, you know, can be like uh narrow focused or narrow-minded. But but then also a driven person can get a lot of work done, can be really, you know. So we really need to look at characteristics and and understand how they if they are working for you, if they are really producing good results into your life, or if they are causing you damage. And then work with that and understand if you need to, you know, this thing I was sharing about myself, what I try to do is to be more conscientious about it. So I I try to make decisions about it. So yes, I do I am willing to take certain responsibilities for my kids, certainly. Shared with my wife for sure. My mother is aging, yes, of course I'm willing to take some responsibilities, but am I fully responsible for any of these persons? I'm not. Even if I wanted to be, I couldn't. And so the thing, the balance is there. How can you share the burden? Yes, be helpful, be there, but then keep in mind that you are responsible for yourself, yeah, and then else.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

And if you're if you're so busy taking care of and being responsible for everybody else and ignoring yourself, it's actually kind of messed up because then they get a version of you that's pissed off and grouchy and or you know, passive aggressive. And have you read the book No Men No More Mr. Nice Guy? I haven't. I haven't. I think it's more about dating, about how men interact in relationships and you know, all this stuff, and like they gotta kinda it's not about being a jerk, but you know, anyway, it's just it for some reason the thought came to came to my head.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

I will share this from my um and that that didn't come up in that first walk. But one of the questions we ask is what is most important? And we invite you to create kind of this podium of you know, hierarchical, so one thing is most important than anything else. And I used to put my family up there, and now I put taking care of myself because if I don't take care of myself, I'm not there to take care of it. You're not taking one else. So the answer is very easy, but it's always a challenge for myself. I always find it challenging to say no. I need to take care of myself first so I can, you know, put on your oxygen mask before helping other passengers. Otherwise, you're gonna pass out and you're not gonna help anyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

I think I think you and I have read a lot of uh books in common and have been exposed to some of these things. I'm not gonna say that I'm doing a well, uh, a great job incorporating them into my life because there's still a lot of things that don't serve me. That I that I continue to accept, right? But anyway, what a what a fascinating conversation. We've discussed a bunch of different I know we could probably do five or six more like episodes on personal development and psychology and uh and all this stuff, but I love the way you're approaching it. Because I've been involved in some you know coaching programs in the past. Or programs and have been through, it sounds like maybe some similar processes about you know the vision, getting clear of the vision and you know, to where you can taste it and smell it and feel it and really, really get it built in your body. But I love that you guys are doing some of that stuff. I'm not saying that's exactly what you're doing, but that you're incorporating this into a walk in the nature. You know, cool is that, as opposed to a conference room somewhere or a group Zoom call or whatever. You know, there's a lot of different ways to go through programs.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

I will not judge, but I definitely prefer to be out walking than sitting in a conference room. Actually, I will I will tell you something. If it was if it was technically possible, I would prefer to be walking while recording this podcast. Unfortunately, that wouldn't probably work very well on the end result, so people wouldn't understand anything, but we've tried it. Yeah, we've tried it, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

Well, I you know that I'm happy you mentioned that because that's something we didn't touch on when I introduced you, is you guys have a podcast. So that was part of the other fun of this for me is uh you've got a podcast, so why don't you pitch the podcast real quick? I shouldn't say pitch it, but just tell our listeners, you know, just make it make it clear for them so they can go find it. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

Well, uh thank you for that and for the opportunity. It's uh the podcast is it's you can find it on our webpage, walking mentorship.com, and it's called Keep Walking With Me. And essentially, we've invited people we found interesting, and we kind of went on a conversation. Well, similar to what the website is. That's it. So we just kind of follow whatever we're curious about and and try to put that out there available for people to check it out. And I mean, we we've talked with people who do similar work to what we do, but then with people who researchers, writers, sports people. I mean, you can find a bit of everything there. Uh I mean, just just take a look and see what what calls you, and if you just listen a bit, you see if it's interests you. We're interested already.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

After this conversation, I mean, anybody that's listening to this that that just like, oh, this is really interesting stuff. It sounds like there's more of that available on your show. And you also mentioned that you tried doing the walking and record the podcast at the same time. It's a brilliant idea, but I also appreciate the technical challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

I will tell you, we we tried really hard and we just felt it was not fair on our guests. First of all, it's uh yeah, you know, they would have we would have great guests with really amazing answers that deserve to be well listened to, but then you had trouble with the sound, you had trouble with noises, you had trouble with, you know, and and so we it's a whole production.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

The only way I could see that uh you guys have thought about a lot more than I have. I haven't really thought about it at all, but it's yeah, it's like you almost have to do it like a video with a video team and uh and uh little lavalier mics and and you need but then you gotta do oh we missed that shot, we gotta do it again, and yeah, that's that's uh which is and then that loses the the the flow, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Because I think when this is fun because we're just following what is calling our attention and not really following a script, and then if you do it again, it's not gonna be as spontaneous. So uh, you know, in the end, okay, we'll sacrifice a little bit and we'll sit here for a while and have uh beautiful talk anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

So that's that's the thing. Going on the walk is great, but it's the when you try to capture it through microphones and cameras and stuff. Uh like you're not gonna do that on your your your um, I don't know, what do you call them? Your walks? What do you call like some tour operators would call it a departure, a an expedition or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

Well, we call them programs.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

Programs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Programs that so but it's yeah, you're not gonna be running around trying to film that stuff for your program. I mean, maybe get some cool photos along the way, whatever, but that totally diminishes the whole point of the entire thing. So I I get it completely.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

No, we yeah, we don't produce, we just uh we we do when we go on on our programs, we do take pictures and make sometimes we make uh movies, you know, videos of what we're doing, but really not not not capturing conversations, just you know, the spirit of the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

So I guess I did want to ask you. Uh you mentioned scripting, and I understand that as kind of a okay, well, here's an exercise we're gonna do that's gonna help us tap into whatever we're trying to whatever we're trying to accomplish. But I actually just wanted to ask you do any of these trips involve camping, building fires, repelling, ropes courses, any of that stuff? I just feel like I need to ask that question. Okay. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

So uh uh they're they're quite, let's say, civil in the sense they're quite accessible walks that anyone able to walk, I would say 10 miles can can do. Uh we do usually a little bit more than that per day, but can vary. And we usually don't do very extreme stuff because we want to make it accessible to a large number of people. Uh also because people that are more interested in interested in in self-development usually are not uh 20 or 30 year old year olds, they're more like 40 or 50 or even more. Yeah, so probably you you would you would narrow you could narrow a bit your your uh your clientele if you really make it too extreme. I personally really enjoy sun. I love rock climbing, rapelling, I love cold water, so I do like some a little bit more extreme things, but I think that's a very personal choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:45

And yeah, and it doesn't sound like you need to do those things to accomplish the goals you guys are accomplishing. So yeah. No. All right, very cool. We discussed a bunch of stuff before we wrap up. We've we've gone over a little bit, so I appreciate you spending more time with us. But before we wrap up, is there oh good. Is there anything I forgot to ask you, you wish I would have asked you, or anything you want to make sure our listeners know before we wrap up? That's you caught me off guard there. I guess we covered everything. I know we could keep going.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

I just want to make sure I could keep going.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

But if there's something there, great. If not, that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

I I will say something which which is a bit of a pitch, but not really. Um which is I really believe uh these programs are are in uh so I I think they are not for everyone at every moment of their lives, but I think everyone goes through moments where these programs are necessary. Well, ours or others. I mean, I'm not saying this is the only way, of course. There are many ways to explore your reality map and to look into the future and to try to, you know, really be intentional about all your life. But I do think it is it is important for people to do that reflection and to be open to if they find that moment, if they find themselves in that moment where they feel this is really a uh an opportunity and kind of a pivotal moment or where I need to make important decisions, or I feeling I'm feeling just that I'm going with the flow, but not really going where I want to go. It's really important to to decide that and and maybe address something you touched before, which is we do have more women joining our programs than men, which is doesn't come as a surprise. But I really wish more men would join because I really think it can be tremendously impactful and tremendously useful, namely for our enjoyment of our own lives. So um I really think we we should be more open to this. And my business partner, the founder of Walking Mentorship, likes to say that these are mentoring programs for skeptics. So we we don't make trust falls, we don't you know we're we're not very let's say we we don't ask for a big leap of faith, and you're basically free to decide how much you want to share and how much you want to be um you know a participant in the group dynamics and all that. So that's in your hands, but your own process that's up to you, and and definitely the more you give, the more you receive, the more you really open into these processes, the more you can gain from them. So I definitely I I think I'm I became a big advocate for personal development and and uh and if you can do it outdoors, definitely it's something great to do as well, yeah. Well, uh we will be joining, if you allow me, I we will be joining a super interesting event in Henley Business School, uh, which will be now in June, which is Nature Connected Coaching Live, which is basically a gathering of people working in this area. Well, this is we're not loonies anymore, so there are more people doing the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

You're not loonies anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

I I I get it. It's it's super, super cool. Now, but but of course, another question did pop into my mind when you mentioned that it's most you know, typically women are maybe more inclined to sign up and that you'd like to see more men. So the question that came up, because you said you went with your wife the first time. I went through a fairly intense leadership type of coaching, you know, coaching program at one point, and they said, Yeah, you and your partner should go, but not together, not on the same departure. Let's call it the same departure, because sometimes people are more comfortable opening up if, like, you know, if you're talking to a guy and he's like, Yeah, you should go with your wife, and and during the course of the five days you're gonna open up and share all this stuff with everybody in the group. That's gonna sound very intimidating. Probably even more so. He might be more inclined to do it if his wife was not on the trail. I don't know. What is your experience and what what advice do you give to men that are thinking about or up to women that are thinking about bringing their hey, we're going on a hike and not telling him the rest of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

Well, um, I can tell you I did several of this programs with my wife, and um because we were not so the the the issues both of us were working on were not relation related.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:19

Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:21

So it was not an issue, you know. You there there was there was no tension or no friction there, and so if you but if you're thinking about a divorce, you probably shouldn't go with your wife. No, that was very or even if or even if you're thinking about saving your your marriage, but then probably you can both go on I would following what you said, go on different departures. I mean just allow give yourself time to to be with yourself and to really think and don't put the the stress of the relationship on top of uh uh reflection process. That being said, I've seen several couples joining and having a wonderful time, and actually because if the relation is fine, there can actually be benefits out of being together in this process because probably you want to align different things. Imagine. Suddenly you start thinking, well, maybe I would like to move to a different country. Probably you want to discuss that with your spouse, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

Probably a good idea to do it on a walk, probably a good idea to do it when there's mentors around in case the conversation goes sideways.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

And and before you start actually making a lot of plans, you that comes up to your mind and you say, Well, look, think I was thinking moving to China. What do you think about that? Forget about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

Don't because here's the thing. If if you go away on one of these programs and you and your spouse doesn't go with you, and you come up with this idea to move to China and start a textile factory in China, probably something you're right, that you should have some sort of discussion with her before you visualize it and come up with a game plan and a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

Good idea. So I think there can be pros and and cons to both situations, but especially unless your relationship is in crisis, I think you can perfectly do it as a couple. And I think there I have seen beautiful resolutions and evolutions happen in that environment. Um now this are we actually designed them to be transformational programs. So this is transformational travel. There is the saying that whenever you travel, you never return the same, you always transform. But this is actually intentionally giving you the tools to transform, so you're coming back transformed. Now that means the people who stayed behind did not transform in the same way. And so there is uh we always really tell people plan for a soft landing and be ready for this kind of shock, which is when you go back, your life will be as it was, but you're not the same. You will be different. And so there is there is a need for an adaptation and for a capacity to you know merge back into that without losing yourself, without you know, giving away your your your your transformation, and that is um that is doable, but it's demanding.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

Yeah. I I guess I just need to ask this another another question. But okay, so you said mostly women going on these trips, transformational, figuring out kind of what's important to them, how to enjoy life and and all this stuff. Um, you've got some men on the trips in my experience. Sometimes when you start really doing that type of work, you can create connections with other people in the group. Probably do. I mean, I suspect that's part of it. Yeah. And sometimes that connection can I'm just gonna be very direct. It's just a place a single guy could go on a trip. And and I'm not suggesting that it would be appropriate to go to meet women, but I just want to put the question out there so you can answer it. So anybody that's listening to this thinking, yeah, that's probably not a good plan, or it is a good way to go meet like-minded people that are also into personal development. What are your thoughts? Because I'm sure you've seen it happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

We've seen it happen. It's uh it's not the rule, but it does happen. It's definitely not a a dating program. So that is very clear and upfront. And so no one is expected to be there on a on a dating program. But that being said, of course, it it can happen if you I mean if you are in a transform in a in a time of transformation, of change, and you're with people who are also in that moment, it is natural that there will be some identity. Some bonding. Some bonding. And usually very deep and meaningful friendships arise from from that. I I'm remembering at least one situation where a marriage arised from I mean, not not immediately, but after two years. No, no, obviously not. And and actually the relation did not start during the trip, but people they they stayed in touch and then eventually uh it evolved into uh they started dating and they got fell in love and and it was a beautiful story. But it's not I mean it's not like the rule by any means. The rule is you you make very good friends and people whom you can meet after a couple of years or maybe five, six years, and it feels like you were talking with them yesterday, which is a very, you know, really nice feeling, kind of you know, childhood friends that you meet after 20 years and you just feel like you were together the the day before. So it's it's kind of this very honest, very real relation that you get to build because you were walking with these people for a week, walking in nature, talking about very meaningful, deep reflections, and so it happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:04

Sounds sounds pretty cool. You know, thank you so much for for sharing so much about what you guys are doing and and your life and kind of what you've learned along the way. I think it's important for people to hear that. We went a slightly we spent a lot more time talking about personal development on this episode than we probably have on the other 180, but uh every every conversation has brought out different things. You brought out a lot of good stuff, and I appreciate that. And I hope to uh go on a walk with you someday. This was fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

Well, uh, I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much for the brilliant questions and uh the conversation. It was really very easygoing. I didn't notice the time going by. So I just hope we're not gonna go for our listeners, but I hopefully they will enjoy it. Uh if anybody's still listening, thank you. Yeah, thank you for that. But thank you so much for all the wonderful conversation. Thank you.