Adventure Travel with Felex Musinguzi - Kazinga Tours Uganda

Guest Bio

Felex Musinguzi is the Managing Director of Kazinga Tours, a leading travel company based in Uganda. With over two decades of experience in the tourism industry, Felex has dedicated his career to creating meaningful travel experiences while supporting sustainability and community empowerment. He grew up near Lake Bunyonyi and has channeled his deep connection to Uganda and commitment to local development into building one of East Africa’s most trusted safari companies.

Show Summary

In this episode of the Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast, host Jason Elkins speaks with Felex Musinguzi about his journey from a challenging childhood in rural Uganda to founding Kazinga Tours. Felex shares how his early work experiences and unexpected support from international volunteers shaped his path into tourism and entrepreneurship. He discusses the importance of building partnerships with international operators and how Kazinga Tours offers authentic, community-focused travel experiences.

The conversation also explores the complexities of tourism in Africa, addressing common misconceptions about the continent and emphasizing Uganda’s unique wildlife and cultural diversity. Felex highlights the company’s approach to responsible tourism, including immersive homestays and educational programs that connect visitors with local communities. He also talks about Kazinga Tours’ strategic shift toward business-to-business partnerships following the COVID-19 pandemic and plans to expand across East Africa.

Felex reflects on the personal values that have guided his success, including honesty, hard work, and a commitment to making a positive impact. He shares insights into family life, community projects focused on education and women’s health, and his hopes for the future of tourism in Uganda and the region.

Big World Made Small guest features are invitation-only and selected based on story, experience, and fit with the show. Guest support helps make the episode possible, but it does not determine who is featured. This helps keep the show free of third-party ads and interruptions while keeping the focus on real, story-driven conversations.

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Transcript

1:05

Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler. So happy to have each and every one of you back here today. And I'm also very excited we've got a fascinating guest for you today. We've got Felix Musunguzi. He's the managing director of Kazinga Tours in Uganda. Felix, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here. Yeah, thanks, Justin, for putting me on this podcast. Well, I have an opportunity to meet fascinating people like yourself. And it's um, you know, I travel a lot, and this podcast is my opportunity just to have conversations and meet new people. So so thank you so much for coming on. We spoke um, I guess it was just last week, actually. Yeah, yeah. And I under Yeah, I understand you're coming up on a big 20-year anniversary for your business. So I thought that would be fun to discuss. Before we get into your background and your story, let's give our listeners kind of an opportunity to understand what is Kazinga Tours Uganda, and it's not and it's not just Uganda, you're doing other stuff as well. But let's give our listeners an idea of what it is you do, and then we'll discuss why it is you do those things and how you got to that point. So, what is Kazinga Tours Uganda? Yeah, thank you very much. Uh, Kazinga Tours Uganda is uh a destination management company. Uh it operates uh operating in Uganda now for 20 years, and of course, we do customize packages for direct clients. And until recently, we started doing business-to-business as a destination management company. That is after COVID. Let's um some of our, I think a lot of our listeners know what a destination management company is. But for those that aren't sure what that means, can you explain in your words what is a destination management company? What do you do differently as a destination management company as opposed to just someone that you know people contact and book a tour with? Uh, destination management company is uh we were a label company that represents companies outside Uganda but would like to bring clients for tourism purposes. So we'll present their brand 100% and also add extra uh incentives for our partners. For example, uh, if a company from America is trusting us with the clients and we are going to do the groundhandling work for them, we give them incentives like uh marketing materials. My business partner Vincent is uh a photographer for wildlife. And every year he comes to Uganda, take pictures for wildlife, he takes videos, and these are the incentives we give to our clients so that they are able to market and they bring clients to Uganda. We we also have a program we call Ambassadors Program. This is for people who have not been to Uganda but they do business, they send clients. We teach them about Uganda as a destination. We show them national parks, uh, we do a Zoom call, and we do it with the entire team so that in case they get an inquiry, it is easier for them to answer questions before they even call me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it, got it. So, an example of that could be a maybe a travel planner or a travel agent or maybe a company in the US that offers places all around the world and they want to also offer Uganda, but they don't have the connections in Uganda to put together a whole trip by themselves. So they go to somebody like you, you put it all together, customize it for their clients, and it sounds like when when the clients show up in Uganda, they understand maybe you even meet them with a sign or you have signs on your vehicles, or how how do the clients that are used to working with, let's say, Mary in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to book their trip to Uganda, they get on the plane, they fly to Uganda, and then they meet your team. So do you show up as kind of like, hey, we're we work with Mary, we're here to pick you up and show you a good time, right? Yeah, so what what I meant that we will present the the company 100% is that the plaque at the airport is reading the name of the agent in the US, uh, or in Canada or where. And the uniform uh that the driver is put driver guide is putting on is for the same company, and the vehicle is branded as the company in America or Canada that is sending us clients because we build a partnership together, we're working together, and we want to make sure that the clients feel comfortable when they arrive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you, in your experience, people from maybe Europe or from the United States, are they more comfortable booking a trip to Uganda through somebody that maybe lives a little closer to where they live? Or what is your experience? Uh, the experience with American clients is that they prefer to use uh the local agents, uh, I mean the agents from their country. We've had a few bookings for direct clients who come from the US, but the questions are always very many. You know, they they want to be sure that you know uh they trust you, and uh you have to prove why they should book with you, not another company. You have to prove that you have references from America, or you know, so it goes around, but at the end of the day, I think uh the business to business is the way to go, you know, like you know, yeah, you build partnerships and uh you make the work easy, and even after the test of COVID-19, you know, uh people who had booked directly with local companies, I think some of them lost money. But those who had booked with the local agent uh in their countries, it was easy for them to follow up with the money and all that. So we've been successful on that since COVID. Yeah, and it's yeah. That that makes a lot, that makes a lot of sense. Um and also just things like time zone differences. Um you know, if you've never been to Africa, and we should discuss, we'll discuss this, but if you've never been to Africa, it can feel very overwhelming because it's a big continent. Um, we hear things about one place in Africa and we think that it it's the same everywhere in Africa, and it's not. Um so it can be intimidating where if you're working with somebody that's based in the US, that maybe has has you know been on trips to Africa, understands Africa, it might be a little bit more um, I don't know, feels a little bit more comfortable maybe to book with them. It's uh it sounds like. Yeah, actually, some people think uh Africa is one country, you know. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. It's until uh they come here, they start realizing that you know there are many countries within African continent. Yes, yep. Yeah. Do you do you I I think I know the answer to this question. I've been around for a while, I've been to Africa a couple of times, but when I say I've been to Africa, it doesn't mean that I know Africa because, like you said, it's a big continent. You know, I've been to Namibia, Zambia, South Africa, but that's there's still so much more in Africa that I don't know. So I guess my question is if something is happening in West Africa, maybe in Ghana or wherever, Senegal, um and people in the US, they just kind of tend to see, oh, there's something's going on on Africa. So maybe we shouldn't go right now. Maybe we should wait another year or two. Um, what would you like to share with our listeners about that, other than it's a big country or a big continent? See, I almost a big continent with many countries. Um actually give uh one example. You know, we uh there's uh Ebola outbreak in Congo. You know, you must have heard about it. Congo is at the border, um, we we border Congo, uh also Rwanda borders Congo, but only one incident happened that uh one patient uh from Congo came to Uganda for medical attention and he died. And all the news, the CNN, Al Jazeera are recording Uganda and Congo are having rising issues, I mean uh cases of of Ebola. And everybody's saying we are not coming to Uganda because uh we see that everywhere in the news there is Ebola in Uganda and Congo. So we are to to differentiate that Uganda is not Congo, you know, and so in most cases, you know, we get contradictions, you know, about you know uh those things. But um, you know, of late, of course, we have worked very hard to market Uganda uh as a destination, and uh the world is getting to know that it is indeed a part of Africa. Right. You know, it's it's interesting. That example was interesting because I was thinking if there was an outbreak in Mexico, for example, yeah, and they took somebody from Mexico to California for treatment, and that person died in California, you know, would would the news be talking about, oh, there's an outbreak in the United States? So now people say, well, we better not go to New York because New York is in the United States and and somebody died in the United States from this outbreak in Mexico. People would be like, no, it's that's oh, that's totally different. But when it comes to Africa, we all just in our heads, I and when I say we, I'm not talking about you. We that that aren't as familiar with Africa tend to clump it all together in our head, and oh, there's Ebola in Africa, so I better not go to South Africa, I better not go to Uganda, I better not go to Morocco, and it's um yeah, but people are scared. I get that. I'm not knocking it, yeah. So okay, I think we I think we touched on that. That's pretty good. Yeah, unless there's something unless you want to expand. Yeah, yeah, it was uh I think uh it just happened with a clear example, you know. Uh, you know, and so and so I think um, you know, um for example, we have Africa Tourism Board that is trying to to to promote Africa as uh one destination working with uh different countries. Then we have different every country has got a tourism board. So as Africa, of course, we are trying to make sure that we uh uh Africa is known for good reasons, you know, because um you've you've read in news every time they say in Africa uh there they are diseases everywhere, there's this, there's war, there is everything, you know. Uh so in most cases, you know, these things affect business, you know. Right. Tourism in particular, yeah. Do you think do you think that having like the Africa you said it was the Africa Tourism Board? Tourism board, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they promote so they're they're trying to promote all of Africa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm curious though, if you spend a lot of time and money trying to promote all of Africa like it's one place, does that sometimes cause problems? Because if you keep telling the US, people in the US or people in Europe, come to Africa, come to Africa, come to Africa, they kind of sometimes maybe think, okay, Africa is the destination. And when there's a problem in Africa, all of Africa suffers. Do you think it would be better if just each country was promoting itself as a place to go, as opposed to having people out there promoting Africa as a whole? Yeah, you see, what happens? Uh um, I don't know which uh famous expo, uh, is it New York Times Expo? Have you attended that expo in the New York? I I think it's it used to be called the New York Times travel show. I think I don't know if it's changed. It's been a long time. Yeah. So uh such big expos, what happens is that they have like Africa, like Africa Hall. Yeah, they have Middle East, they have uh North America, they have, you know. So what happens is that uh the different uh boards of different national uh countries, they go to Africa board and each of them is presenting their country, the the uniqueness of their country. Uh but of course the the Africa tourism board coming in a place was to make sure that you know people are collecting the different uh products, you know, so that you know uh we learn from each other. Because when you go to uh, for example, you go to to some West African countries like Gabon, you know, we want to go to Gabon, uh uh uh you you go to Equatoria, it's uh uh Central Africa Republic, you go to Diara Congo, you come to Uganda, and uh uh you go to to Rwanda, Uganda, we all have different primates, especially the the gorillas. We in in Uganda, Rwanda, and Congo have mountain gorillas. Then when you go to Gabon and the other, and they have lowland gorillas, you know. Even Congo are part of the Roland gorilla. So in most cases for the regional uh promotion and making sure that you know the people outside there have different alternatives. You've been to Uganda today, what happens next year or whatever, you know. So in the long run, it helps, you know, to promote the whole continent. Okay. We yeah, we tend to do that everywhere in the world, don't we? Yeah, yeah. Um, I think something else I want to ask you about is the cultural differences in these countries, because I'm not sure that's obvious to people that have not spent time in Africa. Um so I'd love to hear your take on the cultural differences between, you know, people in Uganda or Zimbabwe or South Africa or Gabon. Because I think that there's a lot more, obviously, there's a lot in common, but I think that people that have never been to Africa just kind of think everybody in Africa kind of has the same culture and the same, you know, to you know, maybe we think, oh, they all look alike, they all sound alike to us because we don't understand the native languages. But as somebody that lives in Uganda, what would you like to tell people about cultural diversity? I guess maybe in Uganda, but also in all of Africa? Yeah, uh, we have different uh the cultural the cultural differences, of course. Of course. Uh for example, every country you go to, they have different cultural beliefs. But um when you go to South Africa, you go to Zimbabwe, you go to these countries of Namibia, I mean, no, no, no, no, no. Botswana, uh, you come, we are we're all Bantu. You know, if you search uh about Bantu people, the Bantu, it is a uh linguistic group, the Bantu speaking. Uh we have very many things in the in common. When we are speaking, there are words we hear and we understand what people are talking about. Then we are differentiated by different the cuisine, you know, of course uh every country you go to has a different cuisine, but like in Uganda here, uh we are so unique that you know uh we are so friendly. We are the the friendliest the friendliest country in the I think in the world that you go uh on a street and you meet people, you mingle with them immediately, and they can welcome you. And you know, and of course, for the last 20 years, what Kazinga Tour has been doing is not only to bring tourists uh to the national parks, but to go deep into people's lives. Okay. Go into communities with organized homestay experience. Like you come to Uganda, of course, you have to see a lion, uh, see the mountain gorillas, but in the middle or at the end, you should go and spend a night in a local home. You teach with the local people, learn how to cook, go to the garden and collect and get the food, cook it to the local person. And um, like where I come from, uh men don't go in the kitchen to cook. You know, it is the responsibility of the woman to go and cook, and it's a sign of respect, you know, to say, okay, my husband is uh he's coming from he's come from work, so I need to prepare food for him, you know. So if you come to our community now as a man, you may help to maybe collect firewood and uh you bring home, and then the wife, uh, my wife and yours will participate in cooking, and maybe me and you will go to a trading center and have uh a beer with other men back home for uh you know for a drink, I mean for dinner, and so it's so like when you come to Uganda, it is uh you really feel at home immediately. Yeah, you know, do do you I imagine that people that come visit and they want to have an authentic experience, I'm sure they just accept what you just said. And I'm wondering, have you had guests that get upset when you say, Okay, um, Mr. and Mrs. Jones, you know, Mrs. Jones, you can help my wife in the kitchen, and Mr. Jones and I are gonna go drink a beer and uh and gamble on the street. Do do they sometimes get upset about that? Or does does everybody just kind of okay, this when when in Uganda do as the Ugandans? No, what happens, you know, we we don't just bring them into a community and say you are going to do this and all that. We give them a briefing uh before. Okay. Uh we tell them what happens in their community. For example, uh in a local homestead, the children uh before they go to school, for example, they have to wake up very early, they go to fetch water from the well, they bring it, they prepare something, or they go and uh fetch firewood from the forest and come back and then shower and go to school. Okay, yeah, the same uh whereas like in America, you guys, I mean, also when you go to like to Kampala, my capital city, of course, I now take my children to school, I drive them to school, but me myself, you know, it was very tough, you know. So so we have to give a briefing to the client so that they understand uh how it works. Uh it may is not a must that the woman must go and prepare whatever, but they can go and learn how things are done, you know, learn how to weave baskets, you know, what happens. Because you go to a craft shop, you see uh a red basket, but you don't know how it is made. You go to a traditional restaurant, you see uh the local food, you don't know how it is made. So going deep and understand and participate, you know, you make your hands dirty. Some of the things that have made us really do well, you know, in the last 20 years, creating special uh experiences for clients. Do you do you if you have a uh either a couple or just a man in a group that really likes to cook, maybe he's a chef, maybe he just really likes to cook and he wants to learn how to make Ugandan food, is that an option? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an option. Like uh we've we've done it, like you have a big group, so people divide themselves into groups, so men and women can participate and do. But uh when you're deep in the village and uh they see a man trying to cook, they laugh at him. They think they think he's present, you know, they think he's present. But uh, this is how you know, like uh African tradition uh has been built that you know uh a man is given respect, but of course, we all growing up, we've known that you know a man must also be responsible. You know, you have to yeah, there's a the other side to that have responsibilities. Have you uh provided for the family? Have you you know all these things comes hand in hand? You know, yeah. What about children? I suspect you've had groups or clients that come with their children, yeah. Um, and how do the children kind of participate in an activity like that? Do do the Ugandan children are they happy to have maybe kids from the US or kids from Europe um playing with them, doing things with them, or is that tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, you see, um, there are some communities where Uh, like children have never seen uh uh in Uganda we call a mozung. Is a white person, you know? Yeah, yeah. Uh so they have never seen um a white man or my white woman in the community. So if it happens, they are so excited and they welcome them. And what they want to do is place the children who've done it, uh they want to touch the hair, they want to be like peace. You know, uh, I remember growing up one time uh it was a funny situation. Um uh this guy is uh riding, he's cycling around, you know, so he passes through our community, and I think he wanted to go to the toilet. But then there is no toilet, is uh, you know. So what he does, he goes somewhere in the bush and uh he does his business, and when he left, the whole community went to see and he confirmed if he's looking like theirs, you know, like ours, you know. You know, I also went there to see to is it dream like ours or no? Or is it like you know, something uh it was something uh very interesting. So uh until now, when I grew up, I realized that okay, oh, these people, you know, we think they are coming from the Mars or somewhere, like yeah, so coming here, like so it was something like that. So the the the children, like we've had I work with a school from the UK, and uh every year they bring uh about uh 60 students, you know, around 13, uh 15 years. And uh what we do is we take them into a community, and um these guys have come from the UK and uh they live luxury life. Everything is there, they have phones, uh you know, they're really well off, you know. So the idea is to bring them into the community that is very poor, where children don't wear shoes, they are not sure if they are gonna have lunch, but they just go to school. Maybe with the you know, we get a book and cut it into two so that you know you can use it many times. You know? Oh, yeah, yeah. So we bring them there, they are integrated and they become friends so that by the time they leave, they go back to the UK. They have have a mindset change because you know technology now is you know everywhere. And then they have also uh taught something to the village children, so they integrate. So this happens a lot that you know the children go there and they are become they become friends and you know they mingle with with the local people. And yeah. Do you think that children, like let's say you said this group is like maybe 13 to 15 years old? Yeah, yeah. Do you do you sense that children connect quicker and are more open with each other than adults? Like if you brought a group of a similar-sized group of adults that are 40 to 50 years old and put them with um some of the older people in the community there in the village, will they connect as quickly as the kids? Or do you do you notice that the kids connect quicker, or what are what do you see? It depends which community, but you know, um there is always like what we call culture shock. You know, the culture shock, you know, like um now these children, like what I've noticed, like when um they reach into the village, that culture shock comes in and then they become shy, and somehow, you know, like you know, uh most of the things are strange, there is no flashing toilet, they are using a pit latrine, yeah, you know. So for children, sometimes it is very complicated, but later when they you know uh they get used, you know, it is okay. But for adults, uh it becomes easier to you know to uh to really uh mingle and uh uh connect with the local people. Okay. That's a little that's a little different than I thought. So I'm happy I asked that question, but it makes sense because if you look at kids that 13 to 15 is a really difficult time for kids. Yeah, yeah. They have a hard time making friends in their own community sometimes. There's a lot of a lot of uh, yeah, it can be a challenge. I've I have kids and I remember when I was that age. So um I also remember when I was 12, I went to Australia, and the children in Australia were fascinated. We looked the same, but our accent, just the accent, they I remember these these girls. I was there with my brother, and I remember these girls that would they just wanted to hear us say their names. They were just like, please say, ooh, say my name, say my name. Oh, put it with the accent. Yeah, because the accent. So I can imagine um, you know, Ugandas, there's obviously accent, language, so many cultural differences. Um, all right. That's that's very cool. Now let's talk about when you were 13. Let's let's go back into your story and figure out how the hell when you went to we gathered to check if the looks I was like I was, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I just I want to hear a little bit about your childhood and figure out kind of how you ended up doing what you're doing. The last time we spoke, you told me a little bit about your history, but I want to dig into that. So tell us, I guess, about your family. What was it like growing up when you were, you know, 10, 12, 13, whatever, uh, in your family? Yeah, actually 10, 13. Uh, I was um uh I was more uh doing things of an adult, you know. Okay. Uh but I I take you like back, you know, I'm I'm the firstborn in my family. And um we we were at the end we were like we were 11 brothers and sisters. So I was the firstborn. Wow. Wow. Okay. Uh the first child in the in the village, uh local setup, of course. Uh when you are by the time you are three years, you you you already start doing work because they have to send you pick this, you know. So I started very early when I was uh really growing up, but life was very complicated. You know, it was very complicated. Um my family was the poorest in the community. If there is competition for poor people, would you take a medal? Okay, you know, you know, yeah, okay. But um, you know, my parents, uh my father was very strong. Uh he had a belief that education is the key. And remember when I was growing up, he would tell me that if you don't go to school, you'd be the one uh working in the like cleaning the roads and whatever. And so if you get an opportunity, you should go to school. But he never had capacity to send me to school. So and I assume I assume he didn't go to school, probably. No, no, no, no. No, he did not go to school. Okay, yeah. For them growing up, uh the parents would give them land. Uh, when you are uh like 15, you get married or whatever, and but yeah, so uh so what happens now, and we had a problem with religion, you know. Uh a Catholic and Protestant major with a dominant uh religion, so I cannot go. I'm a Catholic, so I should not go to a Protestant school. Okay, I have to walk for like uh one hour uh to go to a Catholic school, no shoes, no packed lunch, I have to go, and I'll only drink water from the well, and then I come back uh come back home. So how how old were you when you started going to school? Yeah, I think it was four or five years, you know. I think it was five years, yeah. So you're walking an hour to school barefoot at five. Yeah, no, no sweater, nothing, and um yeah, yeah, and uh of course the other children from the community are going, so I'm not going alone, so you're going together and and so I study, and uh by then the government was paying for us. It was not it was not expensive. So the parent would only provide food and buy books for the for the children. Okay, but you'd find when I've gone, I have no book. I have to write on the ground, you know. Uh and I'm not the only one actually. You know, you have to write on the ground, you know. Uh and uh so that period passed, and uh the first session uh of primary school, I passed it. But you know, uh you are going to school as you grow up, you have no lunch. When time for lunch comes, the people who came with packed lunch will go and for you to stay there looking. Oh, yeah. If you are lucky, they'll call you and say uh you can come and eat. But if it happens every day, then they start mocking you, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes you rather say, okay, uh, let me just stay there, maybe I start playing whatever. If you are lucky, maybe they give you like a sweet potato, you put it in a bat and uh in a polytheny bag, you come with it, and yeah, so we would maneuver. So do you do you remember ever just telling the other kids, oh, I'm not hungry, because you felt bad about the situation. So maybe just like, oh no, I'm not hungry. I didn't bring lunch because I'm not hungry. Would you say something like that, or would they just know you were lying? They would know, they would know because they knew from the very poor family. So sometimes, you know, uh a good Samaritan would say, Okay, you know, please join us. They even put my hand and say, Please come and uh uh come and uh and eat. And even uh in a community, they would mock my father, like when they are in the trading center, they say for you, you are yeah, you are poor. What did you yeah, what did your father do to support a family with 11 kids? What kind of work was he doing? Nothing. Like uh it was my mother who was doing all the work. My father, uh my father sometimes uh he somehow became a cameraman at some stage and then didn't work, and then uh later he was trying to do some farming, but because he didn't have enough land, it was not possible. So during my childhood age of uh from six, uh going uh seven, eight, ten, I would go with my mother to to farm in people's gardens uh so that they give us food, you know, to take home and eat with our siblings, you know. So my mother was doing most of the work with me because I was the firstborn. And so after the primary school, because you have to go to secondary school. Well, let me ask you this before we before we get there. Yeah, so you had 11 kids in your family. They kept every year my mother, every year my mother was producing. Every year, yeah, so your dad was doing something. Yes, my dad was busy, he was contributing something to the family. Okay, yes, yes, yes, yeah. But uh the thing is, uh, what you must understand that all 11 children were not together. You know, some were some died and all that, you know. But okay, every year my mother, my mother's job is to to go and farm in people's gardens so that they give her food to feed the family. Okay, right, yeah, yeah. As I was growing, I have to escort her so that if they were to give her one kill of beans, then they'll give her one and a half, you know, okay, something like that. And you'd you have to to farm the whole day, you know? Yeah. Okay. So it was very tough, you know. But then I can imagine. So my father was always, he's like, you have to study hard. You know, he he was uh really very tough on me. And so after that level, I'm going to secondary school. Uh there was a second secondary school nearby, and it was not expensive. So we start going. You have to work for like one and a half hours. Um, how how old are you when you start secondary school? Uh when I when I started the secondary school, I was um I was uh 11. Yeah, I think about 11, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know, how so did I do want to ask you this? I think I was I was 13. I was 13, yeah. I was 13, yeah, when I joined uh when I went to secondary school, yeah. 13, yeah. I have I have two questions before we start talking about that. I guess the first is you had what did the typical family did the other families have that many kids, or did you have like what do you think the average number of kids was was for a family in your community? Eight at that time. Eight okay, so yeah, so you were your family was a little bit bigger than average, yeah. Yeah, so the it was it because you see, there's no family planning, and uh and so I mean, what do you expect? You know, yeah, yeah. No, I I I I get that. That that tends to happen. Uh and so I I start now the journey every day you have to go. Um, if the school fee is like ten dollars, you must pay at least two dollars, you know, at the start. So sometimes my father is is lucky, he has the two dollars to pay, you go, and then uh the community members actually they were in a trading center, and the uh one uh one whose child was going to school with me. Uh, he told he told uh she told him that for you uh you are you are just let your child escort our child our children because for you cannot manage to pay school fees. Okay, you get you get it properly, that uh telling my father that for me I'm escorting the other children to school because he cannot afford to take a child in a second school. Okay. I want to understand that, Felix. What I hear you saying is because you didn't have money to pay for school, yeah. You your job was to escort and maybe take care of the other kids and then no, no, no, no, no. Okay, so they were the community members were mocking my father, telling him they're laughing at him, that for you you cannot take a child in a second school. That what he can only do is uh to follow our children because for us we're able to pay. You know? Okay. Yes, that's how that's how it was. And so my father remained very strong. So from time to time would write letters to take the principal of the school and ask him if he can let me if he can let me study, and then he can pay slowly by slowly, maybe, you know. And one year was uh was done, and I was doing very well in class, I was very intelligent, you know, and uh second second year comes and then life is becoming very complicated, you know. So I go there and then I cannot pay school fees, it is really tough. When you said it was two dollars, is it two dollars per month? It was like um thirty dollars per year. Okay, thirty dollars per year is what we're talking about. That's what it was that was difficult. Yeah, it's those great difficulty. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm curious. I guess the other question I want to ask is because you were a firstborn, you were the first child in your family. Yeah, in in Uganda, was that significant? Did you get special treatment? Was it did they make a a bigger effort to get you through school because you were the first? And like maybe like number 11 in your family, did they have the same privileges? Or what what was that like being firstborn in the family? You see, when you're the firstborn, you know, like uh they say firstborn, especially when you're a boy in a in a community, you're like a blessing, you know, and that's why they even called Mimusingguzi, which means a winner. So it's like my father was rebletting that he's one because his first child is a boy, you know. Okay, ah, interesting. So he tried, he tried really, he tried. And uh so the second year, it was difficult. That was in 1996, it was very difficult. So, what happens now? Uh I go back home, I cannot proceed, and my father is very stressed, and he's like, Oh, my son cannot proceed. And so what happened Felix, yeah, if you don't mind. Tell me a little bit more when you say the second year was difficult. What was what was going on in your world that second year that made it so difficult? Yeah, so my father couldn't could hardly raise uh the instalment payments that I would take to school. And so he gave up and said, you know, I have tried my my everything, and yeah, they cannot allow you to go to school when I have not paid. Okay, you know, and so I go back and all my edge mates, all of my edge mates, they are thinking of getting married, you know. And so that was also my journal. I'm like, okay, maybe I should uh try to uh to build a small hut, you know, the you know, the small round huts, and then maybe I look for a woman. So one day I I clear the ground, and then uh when my father comes in the evening, my mother tells him that your son is clearing the ground and uh he says he's going to build and marry. Wow. My father called him and you and you were like 14, probably. Yes. So my father calls me, and uh he's like, you know what? I'm gonna teach you a lesson. He told me to look for the um uh he he told me to to lie down that he's going to beat me, you know. And he told me that I must cover the land. That's that ground I was clearing, I must cover it. I should never think of that, you know. Okay, because it what I hear is he didn't want you to give up on school, but he had given up on paying for your school. Yeah, but he also did not want me to now start thinking of getting married, you know, at another age, another age. Like uh I should have been uh yeah, you know, by then you don't know the age very well, but I think I should have been like 15 or something, you know. So well, what did what did he want you to do? He didn't want you to build up to get married. He was hopeful that he wanted you to give up. Yeah, maybe he'll get money and then I go back, you know. It was he was hopeful. Okay. All right. You know, so at 16 years, you know, I escaped from home. I escaped from home. I have to look for survival, you know, because I can't stay home, I'm not going to school. Uh they are laughing at me, they are laughing at him, you know. So you are not a fit in the community. So what happened? I went to a place uh called Lake Bunyoni, you know, uh look for a job, and I landed on a campsite. Uh how far away was Lake pronounce it for me again, Lake. Lake Bunyoni. I I walked, uh I left around uh 5 a.m. Yeah, and uh I stole my mother's mat. I carried it along, and uh the idea was that I should sell it on the way and get some money to facilitate uh uh on the meals. You stole yeah, I walked you stole her mat, like with the mat sleep on? Okay, yeah, the mats, you know, the yes. Okay, all right, okay, yeah. So I sold it that workout. Yeah, I sold it uh a few cents and I was able to buy lunch on the way. Okay, so I was very lucky that I got my first job at the campsite. Uh it was called the Calibone Beach around Lake Bunoni. Yeah. And what made me how did you get that? How did you get that job? So there's a story that lucky. Lucky enough, um the first family that I that I went to, I was actually looking for a job to be a shamba, you know, the shamba boys? Like um people who like I come to your house and I have to do the cleaning, I have to, you know, to do all the dirty work at home, you know. Okay, all right. If you have cows, I can take care of them, you know. It I was looking for that kind of job. By luck, uh, this family has a campsite at Lake Adelake, and they are looking for a person who can speak English. Uh, who can who can go and work. Why did why did they want why did they want someone that spoke English? Because it was a campsite where tourists were in. In the in in the overland trucks would go for tourists. All right. Okay. You know, so so I get this job and I was so excited. The first time I reached there, like every day the tourists are coming and uh I'm speaking English. Um I was doing the cleaning, I was doing the serving food, I was opening the gate, everything, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I'm there, all smiley and all that. I was very happy that you know my life has changed, my family's life is gonna change. And so this job is very interesting. And uh after like uh six months, a young couple is called Abbey and Miles. Uh Abbey was an American, she's called Abbey, Abbey Gil Kaplin, and the guy was called Miles from Australia. They were a young couple, so they are on an Ovel and track, and what happens is that they are wondering, I'm a young man, boy, I'm speaking good English, other kids are going to school, me, I'm not going to school. And they see I'm working very hard than any other worker. So they pull me aside and they start asking me, How come? How come when you are here and others are in school? I say no, life became tough, I could not proceed. So I'm lucky to have gotten this job, and that's why I'm here. I'm raising money. So maybe in the future I can go back to school. Okay, yeah. So they they say, okay, wow, that's very interesting. So they asked me if they would sponsor me if I would go back to school. Wow. I said, Yeah, that's that's good news. So they say amazing news. That's wonderful. It's amazing. So they they they stopped their trip, they they never proceeded from anywhere. They said, We are gonna stay here, we want to help you go to school. So Lake Bunywani is very interesting, it has 29 islands, and one of the islands has a secondary school, has a primary school, has a church, you know. So we went by canoe to ask for admission to be admitted in that secondary school. So I go there, they give it to they give us the vacancy, they pay, and we go back now to my job to say I'm saying bye-bye. I have got an opportunity to go back to school. Okay. My employers were not happy about it. They locked my luggage in the in the in the storage and said, You are not going anywhere. So wow. So this young couple, what they did was to to say we're going to police to report. First of all, this is child labor. And secondly, is uh this guy has an opportunity to go back to school. It was his dream. So that's how they they accepted and they went to school. Now, the funny thing is that reaching at that school, remember they have paid for one term. Right. They have gone, we don't have any contact, there's they are moving, you know, like these guys who move, they get a job somewhere, they after working, they proceed well uh like traveling. That's that's what they were doing. Right. Yeah. Remember, I have lost the other job. Um in school, they have paid for first term, the second term, I didn't have money to pay. Yeah. Well, before we get into that, the school was on an island. Yeah, on an island, yeah. So it was uh you can't. So you said you left your job. Okay, so you left your job, yeah. Went to the island and you stayed at the school. It was like a boarding school. Okay. What did do you remember what it cost for a term of uh, I assume, room, a place of sleep, food, and school? Everything was uh $300 by year. Per year, okay. All right, $300 in the perspective. So $100 for each town. Oh, so okay, I got you. So there's three terms in a year, and they paid for the first term. Yeah, in a in uh in some places they they they they are in semesters, but for us it was just terms. Okay. All right, yeah. So what happened now? I I I I've lost a job. These guys have gone, the school wants money for the second term. Yeah, but because that island was very popular, it was very popular that it would host tourists. People would go there, they go in the canoes, and then they want to around, you know. There was also a leprosy colony, like uh where all the lepers would be and they had some good history and all that. It was a very big island. So I started now thinking, what am I going to do? I cannot get my job back. So, what I did, I just declared myself as a tour guide of the whole island. I love it, you know, you know, you know, I just I love that created a job by myself. So and likely enough, the first the first group that came was coming from the US. There were about uh 10 people, and so I see them coming in the canoe, I go and welcome them. I introduced them and I was trying to speak American accent, you know. Then they told me we are from America. It's oh hi, you know, I'm trying to speak American, and all of them were laughing at me, like, oh, you guys, you are funny. So this young man uh who was like um one year older than me, uh maybe we were age mates called Kevin Schulz. Uh-huh. He becomes my friend. He's like, you know what? Uh you are a very interesting guy. And I told them why I'm doing that job while others in class. He's like, my mother is a teacher. I'm gonna talk to her when I get back home. You know, I'm gonna talk to her to see if she can sponsor you. Wow. And this and this was your very first, I guess we're gonna call it a guide, your first guide group, right? Man, you've got a lot of luck going on. That's one does, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you but and you know what is I love that you just took the initiative to just to just tell the universe I am a guide. Yes, you know, as opposed to oh, maybe someday I can go to school and become a guide. You're just like, no, I am a guide. I'm a tour guide because you remember I love that. I was all these guys who bring the the tourists knew me. I was working at the other campsite at the mainland. Yeah, yeah. So these guys go, there is no communication. It is only sending a letter, so I only gave him the address of the school. So the first check they sent in the through a post office, the the one hundred dollars was uh was in uh in an envelope, sent a school uh post box and uh they received the envelope, it was for me. Yeah, they picked the money and kept quiet. Oh jeez. You know, so me, I'm there at school, I'm playing with the with the children of the guy who uh he was, I think he was a vice uh the deputy head teacher. The children of the guy tells me oh we we saw you uh late at home. You know, yeah why did you pick it? So we just went home, picked it, and a very good handwriting from Girl Schulz, uh, who accepted to be my sponsor is saying that I'm gonna be your sponsor. I've taken an extra job. You know, she was a teacher in Illinois and so an art teacher, so she got another job somewhere to raise money to pay for me. Wow. You know? Wow, yeah. You see what happened? The first money she sends is swindled, I can't access it. So um I went to town, there was a fax, you know. By then, fax and uh letters the thing of communication. So I write a letter, I tell her, you know, this and this happened, I didn't get the money, but you know, here is the the owner of this uh communication center. He has a fax. He also has a forex bureau, so you can uh talk to him. His contacts are these. He knows me, he's gonna help me make sure that when you send money, it is reached. It reaches so we agree now. It's like, okay, I'm gonna send you first of all money to go and pay school fees, but also money that you are going to open your own postal box number, P box number. That's my send you a letter, it is gonna come direct to you. You don't have to worry about somebody else. Yeah, I got it. So okay. So so so that's how to it came that I was owning the P.O. box at my early age, and now she started sending me school fees. I studied hard, hard, hard, you know, and I was doing very well. I continued doing the guiding job at the island, you know. Yeah, yeah. And this is a woman, this is a woman you never met. You met her son. I never met my son, who is one year older than you. Yeah, and he went back and said, Mom, I met this guy named Felix, and you got he's really cool, but he needs he needs some money for school. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah, so Gail accepted to pay for me, and that's how the journey, my journey began. But now you remember, I have my other siblings. My parents cannot afford to pay for them, so I took them up. I'm studying, I'm doing some other jobs, so I have to pay school fees for them. And so when I was um going to high school, uh I started selling crayfish. You know, the the crayfish is like the robsters, you know. I started that business, you know, and I connected, I connected with volunteers who are in uh in the neighborhood. I would take crayfish to them, and so I earned extra money. So I make I met another friend of mine, okay. She was um a volunteer called Anne Davenport from the UK. She helps me and uh she's like, Yeah, I'm gonna make a banner for you to market your business and all that. So we become friends, and then she introduces me to her twin children, he had twins. And so when I was going to university, they raised, they said, We are going to support you so that by the time you complete your university, you have enough pounds to start your own business. Wow. So I said, Yes, this is very good. This is very good news. Now, I also continued selling my crayfish uh in Kampala, and uh uh every weekend I would uh I would sell crayfish in Kampala. How would you tell tell me more about that? What was that like? Because you were living on an island in the lake. After after after after college, second school, I left the island and I went to study the high school was in uh was in town. Okay. So so that's when I started that business because I was so creative that I needed to start making some money. You know? Were you were you still interested in the guiding or did you give that up to sell okay? Yeah, the guiding uh actually uh the guiding was still interested, but I uh what I did was to to get other jobs to work at another campsite, you know, okay during holidays, during holidays. It was also at Lake Munoni. So every every holiday I'm working, but I'm also selling the crayfish. Okay, right. So that uh Anne has got me a deal to raise money. They are sending me money every month. It is meant for school fees, I mean for starting a business when I complete my studies. But remember, I have my siblings who need to go to school. Right. I touched that money, I started paying school fees for my siblings. Yeah. Right. So I somehow disappointed them. Okay. Well, that's that's a tough spot to be in. It's hard to hard to sit with money in your pocket when you're when your siblings are need help. You know? Yeah. So I'm like, okay, uh, but luckily I I was able to also go ahead, of course, and start uh the business. But you know, the idea, if you're giving me money, uh, I need to do it for the purpose you've given it to me. Because they uh they did not want me to carry the responsibility of my father. They were like, no, the other one is uh it is his responsibility, so he must take care. But I understand the situation, you know. Yeah, so uh to cut a story short is um I go to university and I say I must go and study tourism. Okay, yeah. So this tourism I do it because this is where I have come from, it is what connected me to people, and I love it. I love meeting people, you know, and I say I must start my own business. So when I completed the university, I was working, and then later uh I went back to the campsite at Lake Union to work, and then um after a short time I quit and I started uh working somewhere in a town where there was uh a um a local museum uh talking about the local people, about the culture of Bachiga people. Yeah, I'm a Muchiga by tribe. So the museum was majorly to showcase the culture, you know, how the old people, the local people used to live, how they would do this, how they do whatever. And the idea was that we we could also integrate some travel business, you know. Uh there was a community project where volunteers were coming from Slovenia. The founder was a Slovenian guy called Mihar, and uh, when uh we worked out the first trip, we uh something happened and uh uh we were not in the same direction, so I left. Then I started working at another job as a manager of a restaurant and an internet cafe, you know, and from there it's when I started my first company called Felix the Cat. You know? Okay. You know, you had you know the cartoon called Felix the Cat, right? I do, yeah, Felix the Cat, yeah, absolutely. Yes, yeah so the reason why I started I called uh my company Felix the Cat Africa Safaris was everywhere I introduced myself to Americans, they would say, Are you Felix the Cat? Oh yeah, that that makes sense. I get that. Yeah, yeah, I get that. So so the idea was that if I start, if I name the company Felix the Cat, people will remember it, it's going to be very popular. That was my idea, and with that reality, I can start getting business. Yeah, that's smart. So that was like, yeah, but then what happened to the case? Let me ask you this. When you started Felix the Cat, what what what did that look like when you say I started my first business? Because in a sense, you started businesses, but you started a business on the island when you decided I'm a tour guide. Yeah, and then you start and then you started your safari company. Yes, but at least you'd gone to school. You went to school and got a and studied in tourism. Yes. So you start Felix the Cat. Did you go out and build a website? Did you go out and print brochures and signs? Or what it what did that mean when you say I started the business? Yeah, so it was very funny. Um I was targeting like volunteers who come in that region as my first coming. So volunteers, did they have money? Yeah, I mean, I have like brochures. Um, if they want to go for a day excursion, I'm there. If they want to go to the gorillas, I am there. Okay. So the volunteers that were working there, they had some money. Yeah, in that region, yeah. They were able you were able to do that. Okay. Yes. Very cool. And I have brochures, I take them to hotels and all that. They so the people have to call me. And surprisingly, my first client was uh uh was from the US. You know? Yeah she she's called Hero It All. And uh so the husband, uh Henry was the husband was uh was visiting, was visiting uh. Um, so here it says, you know, I'm gonna give you the the business. You're going to take us to a national park. I want to go here and here. I made the calculation and I hired the car. I got a driver because I didn't know how to drive. So I went to the guide. I went as a guide to the national park. I had never been to, you know. But the driver, the driver knew where I were going. So I I was able to create an itinerary, I costed it, and they paid me. I paid everything. So they were my my first customers. That's so cool. And did did they know did they know they were your first customers? Yes, I told them. Okay. All right. Even up to now, uh celebrating 20 years, I said you should be here because you opened the doors for me. Yeah. Yeah. But then after that, because uh business was not easier, you could not get business and all that. So now that's why I went back to the tour guiding part. You know? Okay. And now uh let me ask you this. Let me ask you this real quick. When you started this business, were you supposed to have a guide license? Did you have a guide license? Did they did the government care that you were promoting your tourism business and guiding in a national park? Or was that okay? So, this one, how it works is that you know, um, like I started a business, you are my client, so I'll take you to the national park and I pay entrance fees. Okay, and I pay for all the other activities, so the government benefits in that line. But I do not have the license, I did not have, you know, but the driver were you supposed to? Were you supposed to have a license? I think we don't need to talk about that. Yeah, we I was supposed to have a license, I was supposed to, but you know, as a beginner, it was not possible. It was not possible. I know, I know. It's hard to it's hard to start a business when you've got to pay licensing, and yeah. Yes, okay. So we won't talk about that anymore. As luck comes in, I um I know a certain Dutch guy. Um, he runs a restaurant, and his son had started a tour company, and uh I tell him that you know, I want to be a tour guide for for the company, and so they give me the opportunity. The first opportunity they gave me is when I met Vincent, who is now your business partner, yeah, Vincent Van Thoff, who is uh the co-founder with me, uh who is who we started the company with Kazinga Tours. So now he did not know that it was my first trip, you know. But I had a driver, I am going as a tour guide, but I do not know. I mean, um I know facts about a national park, but I don't know. I've never been there. So uh we go, I try to understand the the interests of him and his wife. So we reach somewhere, we are supposed to have lunch, and uh by then there were many internet cafes in each town, so you have no internet on the phone, so you have to go to the internet cafe. So we stopped, he wanted to go to the internet cafe. I said, also I also want to go to the internet cafe because uh I need to see if I have got an email. So he's trying to ask me, What do you do? Uh uh why do you have to check internet? I said, No, no, no. The owner of this company is my friend, and um, he knows I have a small company, so I'm checking to see if I can uh I have an inquiry or something. Right, yep. So we go, and then he had told me he wanted to if I see any nice sunset, I should tell him. He told me and the driver, but um uh actually I'm the one who was driving, and the other guy was a guide. But I I seemed later to be uh I was seen as more knowledgeable than the guide. Uh-huh. So immediately we reached the national park, he was busy having a drink. I saw a very nice sunset. I went and called him. I said, There's a very good sunset, please come and we go to take the photo. On the river Nile, you know, very nice sunset. So he went and took the the picture, and he told me, You are the first uh the first person who I told in Africa that you know I like this and then in. Immediately on point, and you have showed it to me. So well done. So that's how the connection started. You realize that I'm very uh focused. I know what I'm doing, I'm working very hard to achieve many things. And during the trip, because it was it was for three weeks, uh, we agreed that you know I need to change the company name. Uh Felix Dekati was funny. So so I had to I now had to change it uh later, but we select many names, but we held in on Kazinga Tours. You know, Kazinga Tours uh because we have a uh second largest national park in Uganda called Queen Elizabeth. Uh formerly it was Kazinga National Park until the Queen and the Queen of England uh visited uh the area and they changed it into her name. So I was lucky to have that name, you know, for my company. So that is how Kazinga to came in place. Were you were you happy about that? Like when when Vincent said you should change your name from Felix the Cat. Did you agree with him originally? Or did you did you kind of want to keep the name, or what was that like? No, he explained to me the meaning, like what to meet what you must do for you to have a successful uh business. People always want to ask why this name and all that, you know. So you thought I needed to have a local name that had some influence, and I dropped the other. So I I already knew why you should drop it. Okay, but it makes sense kind of if you're if you want to make money and maybe sell to uh higher end uh tours and stuff like that, you might maybe want a respectful name that has some significance to the community. I love I love Felix the Cat. Yeah, I get that. All right, okay, yeah, very cool. Yeah, so the um the idea we we said uh they we are going to start a company, but looking at my history, where I've come from, let us create very good experiences to people who in turn go back and change communities. We have a special concept whereby the tourists will come and visit uh uh Uganda. We do not look at money but create experiences that will make them fall in love with Uganda and leave an impact in the community. Nice, you know. So, because of that approach, uh the two worlds of the Dutch and the Ugandan complementing each other were able to achieve that because uh education in Europe is more advanced. I was here uh with a lot of of course excitement, so we have to connect and you know uh and so because of that we we have been able to run the company for 20 years, which is a very big milestone, you know. Very cool. And we're we're recording this in 2006. Is uh 2006 is when we st we we we opened it, and then uh one year later is when we go to our first agent from Germany, uh called Romeo, Romeo Kluger. He's like, hi I've seen uh I've seen you guys have a good website, so I want to see if I can partner with you. So a first agent from Europe, you know. How did you how did you start the I I guess this is a question I asked before um about something else, but how did you invent to actually start the company? What was like what what happened that, like, okay, now we're in business. Kazinga, was it a website? Was it just a business agreement, a contract? How did you start the business? In the beginning, actually, one to help me, but uh I said, you know, you have seen my journey. It will be good if we do this together because he had a very big job in the Netherlands. You know, he was a manager earning a lot of money, and I don't think he ever thought that he would really be an investor in Uganda. So we we started small, like I registered it, then he worked on the website, worked on the graphics, have a logo and all that, and then we started marketing. So in 2007, it was my first time to go to to go in a plane and go to Europe, you know, to go and attend an expo and uh you know uh what was that like? Yeah, what was that like? Being in a plane? Well, just you know, leaving Uganda, getting on a plane, going to Europe, like you're you know, the African guy coming over from Africa to Europe, never never been out of Africa. What did you did you feel welcome? Was it you're pretty you're pretty courageous guy, so I'm assuming it wasn't that big of a deal. Everything I mean, I was I don't think really I was focusing even in selling the company. I was so excited, seeing the tall buildings, selling the trends, seeing whatever, like everything, you know, like uh you can imagine I landed at uh Shippo Airport in the morning. It was I think uh 6 45 in the morning, and I just uh see the burger king, which I had never seen, and I I saw I I had to order for a bagger, which was like uh it was called the Whooper. I had uh you know, it was at breakfast, you know. Uh yeah, yeah. I yeah, that's exciting. So it's so it was uh it was very interesting to, of course, uh I was so excited. And um yeah, yeah. Did you feel like did you feel like oh man, this is all working? Look at this. This is all working out uh in a way that you never you never imagined when you were 14, clearing the ground to build your hut. I kept believing, you know, I kept believing, and my mother uh she's so prayful, like she's always praying for me. So I always believed, I kept believing. I knew that, you know, with hard work, uh, honesty, you know, uh uh sticking to a principle would really bring results. This is gonna maybe sound like a strange question to some people. Like it even sounds strange to me, and I haven't asked it yet. But do you ever reflect and think, I'm happy that my dad laid me down on the ground and whooped my ass? Yes, and uh and uh because of that, you know, right now my father in the community is uh uh he has respect, uh he's uh he dresses very well, he's uh very proud that his toughness, even when he had no capacity to pay for me, that uh uh he thought he would at some stage get money and uh take me back to school. So his dream also uh and so he's um I had to now build for for them a house. Uh he's always dressed in a suit, he's uh he drinks beer anytime he wants, you know. So yeah, yeah, but also also because of that story whereby you know uh girl had to pay for me, and I had never seen her, you know, I think 2019 after 25 years that I had to go and meet her physically, which was an an emotional uh moment, you know. Yeah, tell me about that. Yeah, it was really, I mean, uh we're all in tears, and uh, you know, you can imagine, you know, what $300 uh every year did, you know, to make sure that you know I go back to school, you know, she paid for me at the university, you know, you know, and so that story um has made impact in society because most of my clients they read my story and they say we want to help another child somewhere. So we have very many children who have been sponsored because of the legacy that girl started, you know. Yeah, you know, and I think tell me tell me how tell me about how you met her, where you met her, like how did you end up meeting her? No, no, no. You you remember I told you that I met her son who who had come to on holiday and so so 25 years later is when I had to now uh go with my wife so that we go and meet her physically. You know, yeah, that's what I wanted to hear. Is how did you where did you meet her? Freuda, Crystal River, you know. Okay, yeah. So we uh we went, she she came with her husband, they picked us at the airport. I gave a very big hug to her. I have uh I'll send you that picture when she was holding each other, and you know, we're all in tears, you know. Yeah, yeah. But for me, seeing her like uh uh like physically was the biggest achievement, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty good. And so uh right now, uh just recently I I started a community project, uh more in your honoring her to his uh twenty community project Uganda, and it is majorly for uh supporting schools, it's um uh supporting a school where I studied from, and later I'll support other schools, sponsoring children uh who are in a very bad shape that I was in during that time, who are in similar situations, supporting um uh women who do not have like single women, uh supporting orphans who are, you know, the children who are there, they are having hopes, but they have no access to opportunities. You know, tell me tell me the name of the project again. I want to make sure that our listeners hear it correctly. It is called Twende Project Uganda. Twende community project. Twend. Twende. Twende means let's go. Twende is like a sway. Ah twend yeah, twende, twende project, Uganda Project. You know, Felix, do me do me a favor, do me a favor later and send that to me. I'll put that into the show notes or less can go there and get that as well. So all right, that's very cool. I'll do that. And uh you can imagine it's just a story. Um, you know, uh some of my clients have told me that, you know, uh this money that girl sacrificed to get an extra job to pay for you is just one dinner in a nice restaurant in the US. Yeah, you know, yeah, and she sacrificed, she had uh all the energy and said, Let me help this guy. Because, you know, but you know, you look at the journey and you're like, you know, these miracles, you know, like uh the way everything was happening, and and you see now we have a very successful uh safari company in Uganda. We you know, you know, we have touched many people's lives, you know. So we see how you touch one and then the whole line, you know, like is uh, you know, yeah. But I what I you know, and what I love about your story is there's there's a couple elements. One is the people, just the people that you were fortunate enough to connect with, obviously is a huge part of it. Yeah, but then there's there's the other side of it because here's the thing every person that you've mentioned that that helped you move forward, yeah, those same people have met a lot of other people that did not take advantage of those opportunities and did not follow through. So my point is you've got meeting the right people, but also your ability maybe to seize the opportunity, yeah. Maybe even to ask for it in a sense. Maybe you didn't say straight out, hey, will you give me money? But you shared your story and you made it clear and they saw something in you that maybe they didn't see in other people. So it's it's a combination of um you supporting yourself in a sense, but them supporting you, them seeing all that. Is there anything else that you think you would like if I asked you what Felix, you've been it sounds like your life has been so easy, and I know it's not, but you just seem like you're very lucky. You just keep these things keep happening for you. But if I asked you what's the secret to your success, what would you say? Yeah, then first of all, um I'm a very honest guy. Okay, that's good. That helps, you know. Um, and um I came up from a society like where my mother told me that you know, always be on the right side, you know. Let people judge you, but for you, you know who you are. You know, okay. And I have been, I think uh, of course, many people have taken advantage of me because I'm a good person. I worked very hard to to give everything to other people before I think about myself. You know, and um uh because I started something, the business I love, you know, I'm doing something that I love, and we agreed with Vincent that you know, let's not look at money, let's create a difference, let's have very special experiences, and these experiences are gonna change lives, they're gonna back come back to you, and later we'll have capacity to be happy, you know. And here we are, yeah. 20 years later, 20 years later, and um and and you know, uh, I told you about Romeo, Romeo Kruger. Uh he was our first uh to-operator outside Uganda to trust us with his clients. There was no way we could appreciate him. We say it later, we are going to put you also in the company. We appreciate you for having trusted us. So, like I mentioned earlier, we are not looking at money, but you are building networks, you know. Yes, and we believe that together we work harder, we we achieve together, and we make an impact in the community. And we I can tell you that you know all this is uh is on the ground, we are very happy that everything is going very well. What's uh what do you have planned for the next 20 years? Yeah, so we after we started the um before we used to have um before we used to have the the combination of B2C, B2B, and whatever. But when we were hit by COVID-19, we realized that you know the trend has changed, has shifted. So that's when we set up the five-year plan. Uh there was a strategy of um B2B, whereby we represent companies, and we have now covered uh three years and it's going very well representing companies. Uh so far, we're the best destination management company in Uganda, and because we are flexible, we understand the business, how it works, how to help our agents to be competitive in their markets, it has become easy that some even others to connect with us and we work with them. So, we what you want to do is that um after the five-year strategy, we want to carry the same strategy. We take it to either to Kenya or Tanzania. We start one of the countries will start partner with the local person, use the same strategy, aiming at make sure that the agents we are working with will represent them 100% in East Africa, while working with local people who are born in that country. And we hope uh the next 20 years we'll have achieved uh that in all the East African countries. Nice, I love that. Do you have do you have somebody uh well let's uh we talked a lot about your childhood, what it was like growing up. Um tell me about well, I I don't know the answer to this question, so I'm just gonna ask. Well, you said did you say you and your wife went to Florida? So there's a family there. So tell us, so tell me a little bit about your you finally got married and you didn't live in a mu in a hut. You didn't build a hut, it sounds like so. Tell me story about you know, tell me what's going on in your family with your wife. Do you have kids? Is uh are they interested in the work you do? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They uh I married actually, you see, they after um after school, I did not want to waste time. So I thought it was easier that to have a family. So married. I never planned, I never went for courtship, I never did anything. Just okay, I need to have a woman. So I just met a random woman and we you know I hope she's not listening to this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying, like quite happening, like a random woman, okay. No, no, no. So we we we got married, but for sure, we never had like a connection, we didn't have things like the process of really choosing a partner, I think, is supposed to be really take time, uh, study each other and whatever. So my first marriage was not successful, so I had to put it aside until uh I later met um a young lady, Maria, who she was young but very intelligent. And uh she found me when I was in a very complicated situation, you know. Um, you know, I think I can sum it up that I was disorganized, you know, like you you have opportunities around you, but you are working, you know, you are not organized and whatever. And so she she opened most of the things to me, like, you know, you have you're a very intelligent guy, you have this this uh uh you have this talent, you have this, you know, like revealing, trying to expose what you are, you know. You know, you can be having uh a personality that you don't know, you know. So me, I was just going to work, going back home, and that's it. But the connection was pan fantastic that we connected well, and you know, uh three children with her, and uh we we are really doing very well. Uh she's now working in the company. Uh cool. All right. She's uh a tour consultant, she works, uh represents many agents, uh, tour operators, you know, works on them, and yeah. So very cool. Yeah, so I'm uh a very happy uh uh man. I'm taken care of like an African man, you know. I love it. I hate you in the kitchen, you know. Uh-huh. Well, and and she works as a tour consultant for the company. So that uh force her to do, but she takes good care of me, you know. She Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you guys do you guys talk about business at home or are you able to you do? Okay, yeah, all right. Because some people are like, well, if you work with your partner, then you should not talk about business at home. I was just curious. But I think tourism, I don't know, tourism can be stressful. Yeah, yeah, I sure need actually. What is funny is that um our office is in the same compound with our house. Okay, all right. So yeah, that's we leave the house, we go to office where the other workers come and join us, and together then we go back home, which is a few meters, just a few steps, and of course, you have to be to understand the situation, otherwise it can be boring. But you know, you go through it sometimes, take a holiday, you go somewhere, and you know, and uh yeah. Yeah, how old are how old are your kids? My first child is 23 years. Oh wow, okay. Yeah, he's um he's an artist, he does the the drawing with a pencil, like uh he can um he can uh uh like draw you within a short time and then frame your the drawing. Oh cool. Yeah, so he's now he's now doing a course in the uh animation and visual effects. Oh, okay. That's cool. Was was he ever when growing up, was he because if he's 23, your business is 20 years old. Yeah um has he did he get involved in the business at all? Was that something he was interested in, or he just had no desire to do what you're doing? He's a he's actually he started his coffee company, he's into coffee. Uh started uh a coffee company, and then uh so I have my other the the the second one is a daughter who is um 20 years, the other one is 18 you know. But I have a son uh called Kevin who is a footballer, he he plays soccer. He's uh you said his name wait, you said his name is Kevin. Kevin, yeah. Is there a is there a connection to another? I connected it, it was more of uh appreciating Kevin having connected me to the mother. Yeah, I I got that. I recognize you have two Kevins in real life. Yeah, so I named him in a way because what can I give Kevin? Yeah, well, that's a huge, huge tribute. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a very huge tribute. And uh so Kevin is uh a soccer player, he's making 13 years. Yeah, he's doing very well, he's uh he's very good, and I think um he'll end up in uh Europe or in America, he'll really know what play for professional soccer. Wow, and is he he's your youngest? No, no, no. The youngest is six years, he's born. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. So my youngest is six years old. Okay, so Kevin is the 18-year-old. We gotta get all this I totally lost. No, Kevin is 12 years. Okay. I'm counting. How many kids do you have? So I have seven children. I have seven children. Oh, okay. I gotcha. I heard three, but I understand three with Maria or something like that. Okay, so I have seven children in total, and uh yeah. All right, do any of are any of them excited about tourism? That's the question I'm trying to get to. I am we have to find out because uh one of the of the girls is um she likes IT-related things and she likes uh like uh cosmetics things. Then the other girl uh just completed the course in a cabin crew, you know. She wants cabin, she wants to work in uh as a hair hair hostess. Oh yeah, okay. All right, well that yeah, there is a travel connection. Yeah, Kevin is in soccer, he wants to be a businessman, uh, he hasn't picked interest. Then uh uh the the daughter, another daughter is she wants to be a doctor, you know. So maybe at some stage I'll get one who is interested. Right. Okay. Would you would you like one or more of them to be interested? Because sometimes people are like, I don't want my kids doing what I do, I want them to go do their own thing, and other people are like, I want my kids to be involved and carry on the company. Do you have what is your philosophy? No, the philosophy or your your approach? The philosophy is that I want the children to independently, you know, think what they want to do and uh open the door if they feel they are interested in tourism, that I can mentor them into being entrepreneurs in tourism. And uh yeah, so it is always good when people are not forced to say, okay, you must come and work with me, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I agree with you completely. I get that. Um, one thing I know I want to touch on, and then I'll ask you what else we should cover. But um, we talked a little bit about your community project. Yeah, yeah. Um, and helping other other kids that are in, you know, young kids that are in similar situations to what you were when you were younger to make sure that they have an opportunity to go to school. Yeah. Um, we're gonna have a link in the show notes so people can learn more about that. But just in general, what do you want people in the US or Europe or other parts of Africa, anybody listening to this, what do you how would you describe the process? Like, what would you say? Hey, you can help a kid go to school with by doing this. How easy is it? What is involved? What should people know about what it what it would take to help? Yeah, so far what we're doing is that um we always take kids who have completed primary school and they are going to to secondary school because most of them end up going getting married or whatever, and uh and um so we we say let's look for those children who have completed the primary seven and have performed well, or even if they didn't perform well, but they are from very complicated families, right? So we have partnership with a few schools where the children go, and after the secondary school, we always opt to take them to to do the uh technical education so that they learn a skill, you know, that this school this skill can help them to be self-employed or they can change a life or whatever, and then uh what because it is not good to now take the children to to school, then they go to university, they are doing an art course where they cannot have a skill, you know, right? Yes, so we try to help them, then we help them to create jobs for themselves, or they can use their hand to earn a living. Somebody listening to this wants me to ask, is this boys and girls? Both. Yes, I just want to uh so we we have a list, then people normally choose. Uh you know, we do not uh when people say I want a child to be sponsored, then we we ask community members where they have leadership, uh they recommend a child who should be uh sponsored. Because we can put uh names of the children on the website or whatever, but I don't think it's a good idea. It's better. Yeah, it is better that you know there is a person who is willing to change the life of a child. Most of them will say, Oh, I want to say to I want to help a girl, another one will say, I want to help a boy, you know, and then uh send them like two names, then they select because always have a story on each child, and then they and um uh we are now we we we got a sponsorship from um uh a group of women in Germany. Uh they have sponsored uh a project of uh menstrual health, like to help young girls learn a menstruation, uh teach them how to make the the reusable pads, you know. So it is going to uh next week. Uh we already got the the funds, one thousand seven hundred dollars, you know, to it is going to train two hundred and fifty girls. No, one thousand seven hundred dollars to train two hundred and fifty girls. Yes, and they are going each of them is gonna have um uh is gonna learn how to make a reusable pad because they have materials and this the so they they learn how to make a reusable pad so that they are confident because most girls get um they drop out of school because they have no pad. They have to wrap themselves with uh some furnace cloth or something. So we are trying to build confidence, especially in the girls, so that the they they are comfortable in the class, they are used, they have a reusable pad, they can use it, uh they wash it. So we want to make sure that they have at least two, two pads. Okay, yeah. It's it's a it's a topic that a lot of people outside uh well in different in some places aren't aware of. They don't realize that's an issue. And I remember when I was visiting Africa at one point, I was in um, it's probably Zambia, and they and that topic came up there as well. Yeah, and they explained how these young girls, you know, they get to 12, 13 years old, they either just quit going to school completely, yeah, or they they miss a whole week of school every month because of these issues. And it's it's hard. I think it's hard for some people to get their head around well, why do they need to learn how to make pads? Why can't we just make sure they have pads? Like it seems easier to just make so help me understand that. So you see, uh, the normal pads, uh, they are very expensive, first of all. And you just use them once and throw away. Right? So we are looking and they're expensive, yeah. We are looking at the sustainability. Where they are now materials that you can use, you we teach them how to make the pads themselves, and then they have they can use them over and over. After they have used them, they can wash them. Because because if you say to a family, okay, here's a hundred pads, and then when you run out, you're gonna need to go find more, it's expensive. So it gets to the point where it's like, well, they're they are for they're they're struggling to afford a meal, and then you're talking about That's what I'm saying. You know, yeah, that's what I'm saying. You know, that's what I'm saying. When you have to decide between, okay, are we gonna make sure our daughter has or our five daughters have pads to go to school, or are we gonna feed the family? The choice is gonna be, you know what, maybe they just need to stay home because uh we need to feed them. There's more than that. They cannot afford, they cannot afford to to to buy parts, even the mothers cannot afford. Yeah, many mothers, many mothers in the in the villages do not cannot afford. They don't. Yeah, that's so the idea is that um we want to start with the children, but after we want to extend, if we get other fans, is to extend to to the mothers. You know, sure, yeah. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we want to train uh the mothers, and um you know, when a woman is confident, you know, everything is perfect. Yes, uh, we already have better for everybody. Yes, we already have the the concept, uh uh what they what will be done. First of all, it is not about having a part, but also teaching teaching them about the the whole process, how should they be clean and what they should do, and things like that. They teach them about pregnancies, and uh, you know, it is a complete uh story. So they'll be there for four days, and uh it's gonna make a very big. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, you're doing some you're doing some really cool things. I knew you were before we chatted, and after this conversation, it's like I I was able to connect all the dots to kind of why you're doing this stuff. Um, your your why is really big, and I I really, really enjoy that. Um, Felix, we discussed a bunch of things. Um, I'm curious, what did I forget to ask you, or what do you wish I would have asked you so you can share with our audience before we wrap up? First of all, uh, you know, um I think we've covered most of the things. Uh but um going back to the business side, you know, uh currently like uh I have not got an opportunity to connect with American edge uh two operators who sell trips in Africa. Okay, who sell trips to Africa and um so I would uh I think it would be uh how I can connect to to that uh portfolio of American uh two operators, but also um inviting whoever is listening that you know Uganda is a very beautiful country, it is the power of Africa. Uh uh we have the uh more than half of the total population of the gorillas. We have the biggest population of the mountain gorillas, we have the chimpanzees, we know we have the big five. Uh we have the source of the river Nile. If you've heard of the river Nile, I think uh you know, very interesting uh uh locations. It is the best place where you can go with your children, it's the best place uh where you can come. Uh you spend two two weeks, you do uh the hikes, you do safari, you you know, you see everything. And so I think it would be nice even to invite you to come to Uganda. You know, I would love that, yeah. You know, so that you know you tell you see what I'm telling you, you see it on the ground, and then you can go back and extend the story back home. Yes, yeah, very, very cool. I know we've got people listening to this right now that if Uganda's been on their radar, but maybe they haven't, whether it's somebody wanting to go travel to visit there or a tour operator that that sees an opportunity in their offerings, and that's that's why we do this. We do this to have conversations with folks like yourself, so yeah, so we can make connections. So we can make you know, because we've talked a lot about connections and the importance of that. So very, very, very cool. Felix, thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. And uh I'm very happy that you you hosted me because um I have to congratulate you also to say to have the courage of uh telling stories, sharing the experiences to to your followers. I think it's something very bad very nice. I think you're changing lives and you don't know. Thank you. I hope so. Yeah, because uh because I'm I've just shared my story how my life changed, and I know that very many people are going to listen to this story and they say we want to change a life somewhere. Yeah. So uh I on either side, Felix, because they can hear your story, and if they're struggling, if they're trying to figure out their situation, they'll find inspiration from it. And if they're on the other side where they want to support somebody or and they're able to support somebody else to make it through that time, it's great. We've hit kind of both sides of that, and that's that's why these conversations are so special. So thank you. Yeah, and um maybe the the request is if you can reach out to to Girl and uh give my appreciation to her, you know, because I have said thank you very much many times. I have said what can I give you, you know. So reaching out to her and say, I met your son, I had him on the podcast, and he talked about you, and he told how you changed his life and how you uh your support has changed his community. I think it will um be something very instrumental, the biggest gift I can ever give her. Which I think, yeah, as we celebrate 20 years of casinga to us, that you say this is your gift. You know? Very cool. Wow, what a what a I'm not sure. I've had somebody tribute a potty a podcast episode before, so that's awesome. I will I will do that, folks. When we're done, you send me her contact details, you connect me with her, and I'll reach out and I will make sure that she um sees this conversation. I'm sure I sh I'm sure you will as well. But um it's uh it's great. It's it's we're we're changing lives, and thank you for coming on and sharing your story about how Gail helped you change your life and you're inspiring people. Good job, man. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. All right, let's uh let's stay in touch and do this again. Yeah, and probably a host you here soon in Uganda. I man, I hope so. It's the more I've learned about Uganda, the more intrigued I am by it. And it's um yeah, absolutely. So when I'm when I swing by that neck of the woods, I'll definitely definitely. So if you get if you have connections to if you know some two operators in America uh or your other connections. Well hopefully they're listening. Who would yeah, hopefully would like to connect to to get a reliable agency because like I told you with my connection in Europe and uh and Uganda, we we we are the the best, and we have uh we've really been there. 20 years is not easy. Yeah, it's not easy at all. That's uh those connections, yeah. Well, and that's that's what another part of the show is you know, it's big world made small. It's to create connections to make this big world feel smaller by creating those connections. Yeah, and um, and I guess you know, while we're at it, might as well mention that something new that we've done recently over on uh bigworldmade small.com is set up uh kind of an AI-assisted uh network and community of folks like like Felix and and and others from around the world, including agents and operators in the US. So exactly what you're discussing. Um and that whole goal was to create better connections between all the folks that we've had on the show. So um, Felix, I'm gonna suggest you do it and anybody that's listening to go over, you can look up Felix on there. Um just look up Uganda, he's gonna pop up, and uh you can you know watch this conversation, obviously, or uh, you know, connect with him right there through the website. So Felix, thank you so much. Appreciate it. And of course, Felix's Felix's website will be right in the show notes as well. That's the most important part. So Felix, thank you so much. Uh I look forward to seeing you again soon. All right. Have a great day. All right, bye bye. He did leave.