A Role To Play

Take Your GM Skills to Work! Gaming Outside the Box with Dr Dan Epstein of The Long Game Project

• Untamed Dandelion • Season 2 • Episode 9

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What if you could transform your decision-making skills through the power of play? In this episode, I chat with Dr. Dan Epstein from The Long Game Project on how tabletop role-playing games can revolutionize the way organizations learn and make decisions. The Long Game Project provides innovative ways to simulate complex real-world scenarios using dynamic tabletop exercises. 

Are you a Game Master? Take your skills to work! The Long Game Project offers a sophisticated free course on tabletop exercises. We delve into the importance of understanding your unique game master style, the iterative process of self-improvement through playtesting, and the creation of a safe, creative space for learning and feedback, all of which can translate into tangible benefits for your organization - and for you!

We explore broader themes of creativity and game design, and also touch on the magic of D&D and the evolution of tabletop gaming. Join us as we explore how imaginative worlds can connect people and enhance problem-solving skills. 

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A Role to Play is an Untamed Dandelion production - Make a wish. Dream it true.



Sara:

Welcome to A Role to Play, an RPG community podcast exploring the world of role-playing games. This is Episode 9. I'm Sarah, your host, and today I'm talking with Dr Dan Epstein, director of Core Strategy and Game Design at the Long Game Project. Have you ever wanted to be a game master? Or maybe you've dreamed of taking your game master skills to work to be a game master, or maybe you've dreamed of taking your game master skills to work? Well, you can Get on the fast track with a free Foundations of Tabletop Exercising course from the Long Game Project. Last year, the Long Game Project designed over 130 scenarios for organizations with a combined market cap of $3.4 billion. Dr Dan is both a medical doctor as well as an academic one. He also has expertise in decision-making, behavior change, tabletop game design, behavioral economics, pandemic prevention and more. Today, we talk all about games. We explore creativity, problem-solving and how to get better outcomes for business problems by leveraging the power of games. Welcome to A World to Play, dr Dan. Thanks for joining.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Sara:

Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about the Long Game Project. I found this on Instagram. It came up in my feed and I thought what is this? It's like learning how to play games better. There's a free course and there's actually certificate courses as well. Like this is neat. Like tell me a little bit about this.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'm surprised you found us through Instagram. That's a new one for me. We're not usually found through Instagram, but that's kind of cool. We're not usually found through Instagram, but that's kind of cool. Yeah, so the Long Game Project started, as me, doing some consulting work, doing tabletop games for people in businesses or organizations and simulating things to help them improve their decision-making or strategy. It's a kind of tool that I guess started with military applications and defense applications and is very popular still in defense and in the cyber communities, but it's not often done in the context of other kind of organizations or decision-making contexts.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And that's what the aim is of the Long Game Project is to kind of improve people's decision-making and do it using tabletop games, basically through tabletop exercising. So we run games, we design games and we've just started this year to kind of try to achieve more impact by teaching people how to fish, basically. So trying to tap into the network of you know existing tabletop game enthusiasts and hobbyists like you and I, and teaching those people that you know you have the skills to run these things. It's not too dissimilar to tabletop gaming or TTRPGs. So trying to find those people, to let them know they have the skills and to teach them. So we're trying to do a lot more education and content around how to become a game master for tabletop, exercising within your organization. So that's all we're doing now.

Sara:

I have to say that was a fantastic elevator speech. I feel you just covered off all the bases right there. That's really cool. But I'm left wondering many things. First and foremost, I guess, like just the whole idea like I'm just fascinated with, like I get it that tabletop gaming exercises lead to better decisions and have a lot of application in the workspace. And in fact, I was just talking like a week ago with Glenn Sorenson from Hackback Gaming and we were talking about tabletop exercises and gamifying them and that sort of thing as well. But there's a piece about this about the appeal of why this works, and I think that that's one of the most interesting pieces. And I feel like there is also an unusual coming together of different ideas and passions in the long game project. That also makes it very, very interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Like what is the importance of play in the sense of these exercises?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

It's a really, really nuanced point that you make. So, look, I think everybody who's played tabletop rpgs knows that they can be, uh, just this really amazing dynamic environment where kind of cool and weird stuff can happen. And that's what makes them a bit different to like a book or a story or a video game is that things can happen that you don't expect, that aren't written into the story or the code and you know you can take them in strange, weird directions. And that that kind of dynamism and that, um, you know, almost ability to do whatever you can in the theater of whatever your imagination is, with your friends, uh, or whoever's at the table is, is kind of the magic ingredient of why tabletop exercises are such a good thing for a like a simulation tool really. So that's essentially what we're using them as a tool to kind of make this imaginary world where things can happen and you can simulate either a response to something that doesn't happen or a sorry, a response to something that hasn't happened yet or that you forecast might happen or would be very risky if it did happen.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And all of those things are simulatable through spreadsheets or whatever. But when you've got complicated kind of interpersonal dynamics or you know, situations that involve multiple stakeholders. You need a much more dynamic environment to do those things, need a much more dynamic environment to do those things. So tabletop exercising provides a really good medium to kind of simulate those, uh, very dynamic, very complicated situations. Um, that can't easily be done on a spreadsheet or in a? Uh, in a meeting that doesn't have that, you know, is very much more structured, it's a great way of containing the chaos. I think is what I'm trying to say it's a good learning environment.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, um, yeah, everyone who's played it's actually like it's a harder. Your audience is probably like an easy one to sell on the idea that tabletop exercising can be like a transformative thing. I find it quite hard to sell that to like leaders of organizations or teams, whereas the sell to like this audience would be quite easily.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Quite easy Because you can if you've ever played D&D, ever played any kind of tabletop exercise you know that you can create these amazing things and that magic that happens about you know learning and experience and engagement and immersion All of those things are why it's good.

Sara:

Let's just take a moment and talk about that, because I feel like this is a bit of a crossover as well. There will be some people who listen to this, who aren't really into role-playing games, but may be curious about the podcast or about this topic. Let's just talk a moment about what it is to be playing a role role in a role playing game and having that experience. I think there's something special about it, but I'd like to hear from you how would you describe that experience?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I think it depends on, like, what your aims and objectives are when you're playing a role. Like a of people come to role-playing games through, either if they're, you know, interested in books and can project themselves into like a protagonist or inside a story and just want to be in a more dynamic environment where they want to kind of, you know, be around their friends or have choices to make. Or they come through it, through, you know, video games where you've got an environment and you're you're playing a character and you're them in their environment, you're making choices, but those choices are kind of limited, and so playing a role in a role playing tabletop game is very similar to those situations, but the expanse of what you can do is, uh, you know, to some degree like a very big sandbox and very infinite, like you can choose to do, and you can choose to be whoever you want to be, and I think it's that, um, it's that freedom that a lot of people choose to do it. But then you've got a lot of other reasons why people like to role play.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

People like to just sometimes have a break from themselves and be someone else, or they want to explore a theme or a topic that means a lot to them or something, know they might want to play as a, as a adversary force, like a, you know, like a cyber security breach, and they want a red team as the opposition. They want to get inside of that mindset. Or they may want to think about what it's like to be a competitor of theirs and look from the outside, or so there's a whole heap of reasons why someone might want to be someone else, I think for pleasure or for, you know, intellectual interest, or for exploratory thinking, but that's, I guess that's the framework that I apply to. It is like how do you? Yeah, like there's many reasons as to why someone might want to be someone else for a little bit.

Sara:

Yeah, I totally agree. Someone might want to want to be someone else for a little bit. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that there's something. There is something unique about it as well, because until you actually take that role, you don't quite understand what it's like to be in that position. But as soon as you're in that position and you have, like stats and things that sort of matter to your success or your experience of the game play differently, you may make decisions that you never thought you would make and suddenly you understand why other people make those decisions.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Uh, and it brings out a lot of new things so everything you just said is like yeah, I guess, like there's this, there's a bit of a trope in like tabletop gaming that your first character is always like pretty similar to who you are as a person, because it's kind of like a safe space to dip into and, um, you know a lot of people just play themselves if they were big and muscular and had a sword or you know super charismatic um, but it's also like a safe space to explore parts of yourself that you maybe don't or haven't wanted to explore in reality yet. Like I know a lot of queer people have decided to, you know, experiment with playing. You know gendered roles or different kind of versions of themselves in that way long before, kind of you know, exploring those things in reality as well. So I think it's a really important safe space to kind of investigate those types of thoughts and you know reality as well. So I think it's a really important safe space to kind of investigate those types of thoughts and experiences as well.

Sara:

I think that people are often surprised at how much, when they get into it and they get invested in their character, how much they actually do care.

Sara:

And I think that that is part of when it's just a game, that's part of the power of the enjoyment and playing with the imagination that you can do and be anything in the game. And that's a real draw power of the enjoyment and playing with the imagination that you can do and be anything in the game. And that's a real draw. It's almost like a drug to say, oh, like, look, I can experience this. But when you take that and you put it into the world of simulation and any kind of simulation and you have a goal in mind of what you're looking to achieve, you can still get those benefits of saying, well, what are the real things? I always thought my answer would be X, but when I'm actually in the situation and there's all this pressure and there's these other people at the table who are applying their pressures, I find that the answer is actually not even on the list. It's not even why. It's something I never would have even conceived of, right.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

Sara:

Part of what impressed me with the Long Game Project is the course, and I'm just making my way through the free course and I'm not as far along as I would like to be, because I want to do this, I want to do the whole thing, but there is a degree of sophistication in there, of understanding. It's very well researched and there is, it's clear about figuring out what kind of game it will be that you choose and then designing how that game will work in order to get the outcome that you, that you're seeking. I was very impressed. There's all kinds of citations. This is very clearly well-documented research. A lot of this will really appeal to the people who are like you know, like academic, or want to see like okay, but show me the proof behind this. What's the science behind this? Like it's all there, right?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Well, I hope it's also approachable because I'm getting a bit of like getting a bit of character bleed here to my past life as an academic. So I did a PhD in kind of behavior change and decision making, but it had some kind of game design elements to it as well and I've been an indie kind of tabletop game designer for 10 years or so and I tried my hardest to stick away from like being very academic when making the course. But I think that's where my mind goes to when I'm starting to unpack a question is like okay, well, what's the theory behind this and how do we get people from A to B? And more or less it's just about making a you know a logical like progression and also just making sure that you know it's evidence that there's like there's actual theories that underlie things and you've got some you know further resources to look up if you want to look up. But to be honest, it's not super academic.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Anyone could do the course. It's very much designed for people who have played or have had experience to tabletop games and the complete aim of it is just to upskill those people and show them that they do have the skills to run tabletop exercises, but also giving them a little bit more information and understanding that it's not just like fancy D&D or like it's not just D&D for fancy people. There's a little bit more. I try to break it down to make it super easy to show people that really, taking from the first question, like what the hell is tabletop exercising, and I kind of just explain what the history is and the background, and then we go into the different types of kind of exercises that you can do, so it's just about showing the different kind of underlying game systems really and why you would choose one over another. And going from there, I've really enjoyed it.

Sara:

The videos are very well done. They're short segments. They're professionally shot. I find it all very interesting actually.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

It's totally free, you can do it at your own pace. The aim of it is to try and attract people who are slightly interested in tabletop exercising or tabletop gaming and can that it's a or tabletop gaming and can see it's a powerful tool and if you've ever wanted to, if you've ever run into a situation at work or ever thought about, hey, could I bring this to work somehow, the underlying premise is to teach people that you do have those skills inside of you. It's about just how you go about unlocking those skills to bring to a professional environment. You know, because it's hard to bring you know a one-shot D&D to work, but it's quite easy to suggest a tabletop exercise if you know what you're doing. There's one part of the course further towards the end that is about kind of looking at yourself as a game master and kind of really thinking about you know who you are and like what your, what your skills are and what your ambitions are and what makes you a bit different. And if you're in that professional space, you have to really think about that and it's something that I've had to work on as well. About, you know, almost like a brand of yourself, like what is your flavor as a as game master, and it really is something you need to think about.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And also like the concept of playtesting yourself. You know like playtesting is something we bring up through the game design parts of you know how you think about building a tabletop exercise that's successful. It's a lot about you know playtesting it, make sure it works. But I like to think about the concept of play testing to bring back to yourself as well, so to make you know, to make you think that you can get better through iterative processes, and that's my concept of how I like process any type of criticism or feedback.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Maybe it's like a psychological coping mechanism a little bit, but it's this idea of understanding that when someone gives you criticism, or when someone gives you feedback, or yourself giving yourself criticism or feedback, trying to listen to the signal through the noise, and understanding that through the concept of playtesting, which is familiar to people who come through games, that you can improve it. You can improve the product by figuring out what needs to get better for next time, and it's all about practice. So I just think about that when I'm thinking about being a better game master myself. Is that you're never going to get it all right game master myself is that you're never going to get it all right. It's incredibly hard job with lots of moving pieces and people management and being dynamic and saying the right things and, you know, sharing the spotlight and all these skills that come together. It's incredibly hard and you can only just iteratively improve by playtesting yourself.

Sara:

I'm glad you said all of those things, because what you just said there also makes the case for doing the exercises and also for bringing it into the workspace, because there is that opportunity to improve and there is the safety of it just being play and that it's fun. And I think that when there's play, there's creativity and it's fun. It's creating that safe space where the screw ups they don't exist, because this is all in imagination and there's all that opportunity to receive feedback from that safe space and make things better or discover new things, which is this is really powerful stuff, right?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, yeah, I have this kind of working theory. I wrote like an article about it a couple of weeks ago called the Power of Imaginary Worlds, and it's this idea that imaginary worlds are thought of as like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. But what I think of imaginary world is more of a lower level tool that we've developed through evolution, you know like I think, a lot of people understand how important storytelling is for humans, but I don't think a lot of people understand how important imaginary worlds are for humans.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

So I think the difference to me is like an imaginary world is not just the ability to tell a narrative but the ability to, in our heads, generate like an environment that things can happen in and you can see consequences, you can see choices and actions and simulate those things and play out different environments. And play out different environments. For example, I guess the earliest and most robust kind of understanding of this is like you walk up to a bush that has purple berries and you can spring up this imaginary world inside of your head and you can say, hey, don't eat the purple berry. It's this simulation that we can run really quickly in our head, an imaginary world that's got an evolutionary advantage and so we've gotten really good at it over many, many generations. And I think that those imaginary worlds still have just amazing power for a few reasons. The first reason is because you know we can do it without any like energy cost, we can just think of it, we can communicate and use language and we can all have an imaginary world running in our own heads at the same time. And the second reason is because it doesn't have to be limited by, like, physical constraints. It doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, it doesn't have to obey the laws of the time-space continuum. We can make up things like magic and whatever, but we can also do things like forecast what's going to happen in the future and think about what happens in the past, and I think even like memory and planning, all those things are falling to the spectrum of imaginary worlds that we're making our heads, and that's that's kind of why I think table of exercising or table of games are such an amazing medium is because they're probably the most native environment for an imaginary world in your head, even more so than like.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I think that's actually the reason why people like books more than the movies is because a book plays in your imaginary world, in your head, like you're the director, like all the characters look like you want them to look, all the dialogue is delivered exactly how you want it to be delivered, and then the movie comes along. And the movie might be the director's best interpretation of their imaginary world in their head, but it will never match yours. And your imaginary world in your head has no budget. It has no limitations. Everything perfect?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

yeah, I think I actually really think that's why books are better than the movies.

Sara:

A lot of the time it's because imaginary worlds are better than than when we try to project them I think you're, I think you have a point there, because, uh, we can envision things and then to try to bring them into reality, I I find like if I'm trying to do something artistic, if I'm trying to do a painting or anything, I have these great ideas, even actually last night I was playing telestrations. Do you know that game?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

no, I know exactly what you mean. It's like when you're trying to draw something and it's never as good as what you thought you could do in your head I was trying to draw.

Sara:

You get a word and then you have to draw a picture and you pass it on to the next person. It's like a broken telephone. It goes around in a big circle and I found myself. The word that I had was Batman. I'm like, oh, that's so simple, right? So I go to draw a bat and I'm like I can't draw a bat. That doesn't really look like a bat. So I, I mean I pulled it off, but so I ended up doing the bat and the and the and Batman himself, and I got it through. But yeah, it just it's easy to forget how it can seem so simple and so clear in my own mind, but when I go to draw it it doesn't quite look the same.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

That's not showing your limitations of your drawing skills. I think that's just showing, like, the power of your imaginary worlds that you can spin up. I think it's, but that's exactly right. Like, the imaginary worlds are super powerful. You can apply tiny tweaks, you can rewind, you can replay. You can do so many things and you know replay. You can do so many things and you know they can spin out of control if you've got. You know things like anxiety or you know bad, negative self-talk or something. That's where imaginary world power can really spin off into like bad directions, I think, because it's super powerful. But it can get. It could be used for evil as well as good. But if you look at the good side, you get people who can tap into that and really think about really complex situations and dynamic.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

You know interpersonal things and you know in terms of organizations very complicated, like marketplaces or you know, industries, and formulate these strategic plans and stuff. It's all like very complicated but the imaginary world can kind of handle it.

Sara:

That's especially interesting.

Sara:

So now I'm thinking about you have, like you're reading a book, you're being inspired by what someone else wrote, you're creating the imaginary world in your mind based on what someone has written on the paper.

Sara:

But when you're doing like, when you're actually engaged with other people and you're creating that world and you're creating what happens in it together, in real time, you're responding to to all of those inputs and it's kind of like gelling together all at once. So it's even you don't just you're not just having the creativity of one person, you're having creative creativity of many persons, which is really interesting. And the other piece of that is that you're sharing that with everyone else, which, if you're trying to figure out a strategy or share a strategy like, one of the things that you need to do to be successful with strategy is get it out there, share it with as many people as possible, get everybody on the same page as to what it is that your strategy is and help them really understand it. What could be more powerful than being immersed in discussions around strategy with everyone at the table?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

You're not wrong, and you've hit on something that's super important from an organizational perspective, which is like clear strategy and clear branding, like those really vague, hard to define terms.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

What they really boil down to is if everyone in an organization really clearly understands the strategy kind of just means that, like everyone's imaginary world is aligned, like they all know what the story is, what the narrative is, what the goals are of the organization, and then they can, uh, if any kind of situation comes up, they can understand what the values are of that organization and what the you know, what the organization as an organism as a whole, how it needs to move forward through that thing. And so it's this really clear concept of character almost in terms of an organization for strategy and branding as well. Branding is the clearest best brands are the ones that tell the best branding and marketing. People would like to use the word story. In my mind it's they create the best imaginary world so they're able to get their image of their imaginary world like as clear as possible for themselves and then they articulate it really well to others so that other people, um, you know, watching the same movie in their heads, or you know, I mean like I think they understand.

Sara:

It's really like we're getting very like academic here, but I think that it's about the clearness and removing of the fog of war, of that, of that imaginary world that makes it really clear in other people's minds I think that if you really commit to it and to get the most from the experience, you have to be open to what that experience will bring you and let go of the need to be perfect't make the best decision or uh, or whatever. But that also comes back to the skill of how it's being facilitated, uh. And then that there's that huge, like you said, that huge learning opportunity of you, know that constant feedback and how can you get better. And yeah, I think that is part of the power of it, of all of of it.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, yeah, I think it's pretty well known in the games literature that there's different types of players, right? There are people who come to a game to try and win and just be as game theory optimal as possible. There are people that are there to be observers and to just watch others and sit back and enjoy the story. There are others that are similar to me that just like an interesting narrative. They just want interesting things to happen. So it's not so much about rolling Nat 20s all the time, it's like Nat 1s are also kind of cool sometimes if it just makes the story a bit interesting.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, so I guess you've got to understand yourself and what you come to the table for and like if you come to be perfect. It's not the place to come to be perfect because, like it's, the tool itself is designed to be like not a perfect story. It's designed to show um, this is tabletop games I'm talking about it's. It's designed to be this like place where people can interact and write, almost tell a story together and have that story be. You know this weird soupy mix of improvisation as well as like randomness from a dice and, you know, inventiveness from a game master.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

So I don't know it's like not the place to come to be perfect and it's a hard lesson to learn for a lot of new people, but it's a safe environment and I think that concept of how safe you can make your table really lowers the barrier or the defenses of people who get that. You know, getting wrapped up in being perfect or making a mistake or not doing the right move or something yeah, that's one of the hardest things I have to get over in the corporate environment with games is like you know you're playing a game with people who maybe have power imbalances in their actual workplace. There's managers playing with you know underlings and then you have to like slowly. You have to create this safe table where it's okay to just like, make an error.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Like a lot of people don't want to make mistakes because they're in a corporate environment, you know like they want to be showing to do the right thing the whole time. But kind of the aim of the thing is not to be perfect. The aim of the thing sometimes is actually to stuff up and to like recognize where that stuff up is before it happens in the real world. So it's a really hard thing to do to lower people's defenses. But I think setting table culture and setting the tone has a lot to do with that. It's very nuanced game mastering, I think.

Sara:

I wanted to go into the game design piece. You talked about having a background in game design.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'm an independent game designer that has tinkered with stuff for a long time and I would not call myself a true and true game designer. I think that would be a wrong thing to say about myself for all those people that have gone through many years of hard training to become a through and through game designer. But you know as much as someone can be an enthusiast and be a tinkerer, you know games are. Games, are this cool medium where it's more like I like to think about it like an art more than like a science. There are definitely ways to train yourself and learn things and get you know, get better and know the theories. But at the same time it's also really cool to experiment and to you know, to homebrew stuff and to play around and test things.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And you know, some of the best games are created by people who don't really have a background in game design in a career sense. To be a hobbyist and be a tinker is, I think, enough to explore with game design. Yeah, I mean it's a combination of things. So I think for me, I really take what I know from an academic standpoint around behavior change and decision making and I apply that lens of tabletop gaming to be like okay, well, this is how I know people are making decisions.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

In this context, how do I create a game mechanic that can kind of simulate that or what? What is an environment that I could create that would make an interesting decision? And how do we create mechanics and box people in a situation where it supports the kind of choices that I want this person to make? So it's more about the thinking about it. I think that I like to do, but, like any game of anything, it's a very dynamic environment. People can do completely the opposite of what you think they're going to do, and they usually will yeah or well, you give people boundaries and rules and their immediate thing is like, how do they?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

the immediate thought that goes through people's head is like how do I skirt close to this or how do I like exploit this? So you have to really think from their perspective and, um, you know, try and break the the walls and the boundaries that you set up what kind of feedback have you had so far?

Sara:

from the course, or from the long game project, or from the games that we run uh, from, I was thinking from the games that you run, but any and all of the above yeah.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

From the games that we run, the feedback is always good. So it's the hard thing is getting people there. And then the next hard thing is to get people immersed. So if you can get people to the table and if you can achieve immersion and people feel like they're there and they're present, they almost always get something out of it and they almost always have a good time at least at least a good time and fun, because it's different and uh.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

So yeah, that's the way I think about it is the first damn wall to break down is like convincing people that it's a worthwhile use of their time, because busy people in corporate environments or bosses or whatever, or C-suite people they're very hard to get three hours of their calendar and even harder to get three hours alongside four other people's busy calendars. So you've got to really work hard to convince them that this thing is worth doing. To all block out that time, to do at the same time. That's the hardest part by a mile. Once that is done and they're at the table and they haven't cancelled on you last minute or whatever, then you have to create this setting at the table and the table culture to make sure they get immersed. There's rules that you can put in place to achieve that. But you know if you can see them paying attention to the game, trying to think about it, you know not looking at their phone.

Sara:

Yeah.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

You know you've got them. You know, like there are things that you can do in the home game to make that happen as well. You know, have props, have music, have dice rolls early. Like you know, getting people in there and lowering the barriers to contributing is like the hard part, but then, once they're there, they don't go out like they don't. No one is like immersed in the situation and says I'm gonna take a break here. I check my emails or whatever. Like everyone just wants to keep going.

Sara:

Yeah and they want to.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

They want to get something out of it. So I think it's less about like the, the scenario and game design and it's actually more about immersing people and like getting them in the situation and you know, all of those other things are very important. But if I could say the number one thing that makes people feel like they got something out of it, it'll be like how immersed and engaged they were in it immersed and engaged.

Sara:

They were in it. I like, too, what you said about like getting that immersion dice rolls early, because that's something I believe. I mean it's not important for everyone, but I just love dice and give me a reason to roll and foolishly, I will often take it without thinking so it's a good, it's a, it's a good draw, and I think there's something about that, like that, that element of luck and of like uh, of of the unknown, or the excitement of something interesting or something good could happen from this role yeah.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

So a large part of what I have to do is I have to kind of very quickly orient people to what the hell it happens in the game, and I think that that is the same process that happens with people who are new to like playing dnd. Is you're like hey, I've heard about this dnd, but like, how do you play?

Sara:

like what do you?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

actually do like what, what, what are the? What are the moves that I make? And so having a like the way from a game designer's perspective I think about. That is like almost like in a video game, where you have like a really easy introductory level where you're learning, like how to press A and jump, and how to pick up a stick and turn it into a sword.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I just try and create those super easy on-board ramps for people to realize oh, that's how this works. Yeah, you know, like to just have like a very simple interaction at the very start, right at the top, and just like isolate someone and call them out and then make them do a dice roll and then you know, have them, have them say a choice, super simple choice that has no consequences later down the line have them do a dice roll and then have them fail or succeed yeah, yeah, yeah within like 30 seconds or a minute everyone in the room can understand oh, that's how this works oh yes, oh yeah.

Sara:

That's how.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

That's how this game works and so that that that's how I like to do dnd. If I'm ever like playing dnd with new people is I'll yeah get them to introduce themselves, introduce their characters, start to like break the ice and warm up and then immediately it's just like you've got to make a check of some sort.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

That's like completely consequence-less but fun and like, yeah, having fun and rolling dice and yeah you know, yeah, just experimenting with the world and seeing that, oh, this world moves when I touch it ah, yeah, yeah and that and that.

Sara:

That just gets back to the uh, the importance of creativity and and it just seems like in our working days there. Well, I guess it depends on what kind of job you do, but I feel like I would just speak very, very broadly, recognizing that some people do very creative work all the time, or bring creative or are successful in bringing creativity to work that might not otherwise be deemed to be creative, if I could say it like that, but the opportunity to exercise creativity is it's special, I think, and being able to go into that with other people and enjoy it, I think it's important and I think that sometimes, when we reason why this is so interesting and why it has such appeal, because it's also very rewarding when you create something, it's rewarding right.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, so that's really cool Creativity. It might be the last bastion that we have over the computers that we need to know how to tap into In. I think it's in all seriousness, I think it's like a super important muscle to exercise, like creativity is a very uniquely human thing. To create something out of nothing, or, you know, see a connection between two things that was never made before and think about it. It, uh, yeah, humans are amazing and creativity is amazing, and it's the reason why we're talking now over, you know, internationally, over a camera with microphones. It's, you know, like there's creativity is um, is a, is amazing, it is, it's our manner, it's our magic, but we just don't really know it.

Sara:

Yeah, yeah, and I think there's something also like something that's been created, it doesn't really matter what it was unless there's also someone there to experience it, someone to admire it, to respect it in some way or interact with it, Because it doesn't matter what's created if there's no one to appreciate it. So some people will say, say, oh, I I'm not very creative or I can't do anything. But if you have the ability to look at something and say, oh, I recognize something in this, to me that's also an aspect of it, an important piece of it I really hate it when people say they're not creative or, you know, they're just not good at doing.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

They're just not creative like they're just, that's just something they don't have.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

It's just, it's just so, not true.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Like everyone has different versions of it and some people are are very good at it in the way that it's very obvious, but some people are very good in the way that's not very obvious, you know, and I wish I wish that. So I went through school and mostly did like sciences, right, and I liked art, I was good at drawing and I liked drama and I was good at drama, but I never chose those because they weren't like they wouldn't get me into the university course that I wanted to get into, and I think that that's because those subjects try to fit this, they try to fit in this box. They're like a weird shaped thing that tries to be fitted through a square shaped hole right, and like science, sciences and maths, they have like really clear things to learn, very robust, like uh, almost functions that you can do to get the right answer. There is like a correct answer and an incorrect answer. But in things like drama and creative arts and, you know, drawing, there's not a, there's not a right answer nor there is a wrong answer.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

there's this like spectrum of things that can exist and what they try to do is ascertain your thinking and how you're thinking about the the thing. Like you know, in drama or school it's about how the process was arriving at this piece, like what's the? You know what's the concept behind this piece of art, and that's okay, but it's just trying to fit a report card right. Like we're still like teaching people from such a young age that there's this like right and wrong way to be creative and there's really not. And I really hate it when people say they're not creative, because I think someone once told them you get a bad grade in creativity and I was like I really wish that we didn't do that because it's a hard lesson to unlearn.

Sara:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Actually, one of the people that was playing in telestrations last night is actively trying to unlearn that lesson yeah, I think, like people who say they aren't creative, don't recognize what creative people go through to achieve the finished product of whatever it is they're creating, like people who are, you know, create amazing paintings or amazing videos or amazing art or amazing music um sure, sure, they have a skill that they've practiced forever, that they're very proficient at. But to achieve like a finished thing, or a finished drawing or finished movie or whatever, you have to go through so many like iterations scratch that, do this again, re-edit this re-record. That rewrite this re-record. Oh, I didn't like the way that that was done. Go do that again. You know, take this technique that I learned from someone else, apply it, change it yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

It's not like a straight line, like it's not, yeah, yeah yeah, it never is. And then eventually you end up with something that's like kind of how you think you wanted it. But I think people who don't practice creativity just don't recognize that someone doesn't sit down and start drawing like a printer. You know, like it doesn't work like that. I think it was like I think I completely could be misquoting someone here, but I think it was Vincent van Gogh who said like you know, I never finished a painting, I just stopped drawing.

Sara:

I think that creativity is so. It is so rewarding and important.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Look, tabletop gaming is like such a low bar of entry to a high level of creativity in the environment Like you're going from. Like literally all the preparation you have to do as a player is like kind of understand how the game works, kind of write a character sheet and then you step into this environment. That's like a multi-person environment. That's like kind of writing, writing, kind of drama and acting. You know it's physical. If you have minis or drawing or whatever you're doing else. It's this like highly creative environment that you're stepping in and it has such a low bar to just like participate in. All you've got to do is like step into it and then just like lower your defenses. That's the only two things you have to do and you can find yourself in this amazing creative world that like for me anyway, hits all the buttons in my brain. That's like you know immersive, creative, you know flow, state. It's just such a cool thing and like that's why I think people get so like obsessive about it is because it's this, this world that exists. This is pure creativity and it's this world that exists. This is pure creativity.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And it's such a low bar. To get there you don't have to be an expert at anything, you don't have to. You can get better at it, but to be there and have fun is really like, not it's very achievable for anyone. So I think it's and it's multiplayer Like that's the other thing. You can share that creativity with others, you can retell that story and to have that amazing experience it's not like you know, sitting in an artelier painting by yourself. It's, it's multiplayer and it's terrible, so it's social as well. It's. It's so good like I wish more people did it yeah, me too.

Sara:

Me too, I I've. It's one of my goals to introduce a few new players to dnd and create some structure around that. So I I think I will be dipping further into your course and using that for some inspiration. It'd be nice to be able to actually talk about that. This is what I learned.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'll report back to you when.

Sara:

I get around to that.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

My main North Star with this mission is to improve people's decision-making and hopefully make the world a better place by, like, avoiding catastrophes and making better people better at, like you know uh, governance decisions.

Sara:

But my second goal is to just like trojan horse, like role-playing table of games, into every workplace I think that's a like a totally noble cause, and I'm finding that there are a number of people that are interested at my workplace, like either hardcore, already play, have, like you know, a thousand books of all the game systems that they never have time to play, and then there's the people that are just curious and are a little intimidated because it just seems like so much to get into it. But we'll get to them, yep.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

It's just a bit of meeting, that's all it is.

Sara:

I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. Can I? Uh, can I ask you like, what was the? What is your favorite game system?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

oh man, that is so hard. Um, I think fifth edition dnd because it's such a well-designed system to onboard new players and also to simulate fantasy worlds so easily. I think that there's a reason why it's the most popular, and not just because it has the highest marketing budget. It's because it's very, it's very good, it's very good at like picking up, picking people up, taking them along, make it very easy for the game master to design easy games and run people through easy scenarios. Um, it does have its like limitations, but for the majority of people it works really well for tabletop role-playing games and, um, you know, I think that it's, I think hats off to them.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And I think it's marvelous that they've put the like system reference document, the main rules in the creative commons now, so forever and ever. What that means is that people can take it and remix it and take those rules and make it into different things, and it's basically gone from a, an intellectual property piece, to just like a modular piece that exists within the architecture of the broader world. So for me, like fifth edition table, fifth edition dnd is like a building block and it's such a, it's such a rock of a building block like you can twist it and change it in so many different ways. I think it's fantastic. I and it's such a rock of a building block Like you can twist it and change it in so many different ways. I think it's fantastic.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I think it's such a good. The D20 roll for a check is like such a pure amazing way to simulate anything in any environment and I love it and I use it in all of like the things that I do with tabletop exercising. It's such a good way to resolve anything that can happen in an environment from a game system perspective. I just think it's genius and I think it's such a clean, amazing thing that once you understand, it's very simple to do and it's just a great system. I think it's just really good.

Sara:

So do you play homebrew or modules?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

now I homebrew a lot of stuff if I play yeah, yeah but it's before.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I did that. Like I still sometimes just like get a module. That thing's kind of cool and I just like pick pieces and chop and change it. The way I like to do modules is I like to get the setting and then the players at the table. I ask them, like who they want to be, what kind of characters they want to be, and then after I get those initial drafts of their characters back, if I'm playing a module, I'll look at the module and see how those people would fit into the world and I might substitute main characters in that model for their character, in that model for their character, or I might add different things or give them specific ties to pieces in the module. I'll change the module to fit them. I won't change them to fit the module, if that makes sense.

Sara:

Oh, I love that, I love that. Yeah, that's the whole yes and concept.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Exactly, exactly yeah.

Sara:

Was D&D the first game that you ever played like in terms of role-playing games?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yes, very loosely. I mean I got a. I took the bus for 30 minutes when I was a 11 year old from my house down to the local game shop and I got a secondhand copy of the D&D player's guide and I used to sit there with my two friends when we were, like you know, in fifth grade or something and we used to just like. We literally just used to play make believe and look at the pictures for inspiration. So if you call that playing D&D, I think that's like, which is kind of what I still do for a job now, but you know it's it was.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

You know we read the books and as we grew older we incorporated the rules that we thought were cool, but we were very loose, very fast and loose with the rule system. But I actually think that's like the best way to start and I have a little daughter now and I definitely want to play like make-believe with her, with her, and I think that, um, it's just so easy to transition make believe into like, adding rule systems underneath it so that it becomes a bit more like structured, and that's just how you, that's just how you transition into like games and imaginary worlds is like you start as a kid really early, and then you gradually add complexity. So yeah&D was my first like tabletop game system, but I loved. I was just like a super energetic kid that loved playing make-believe. So I think that was my first game system was just like theater of the mind and teddies.

Sara:

What does your gaming look like today?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I guess from a job perspective. Now I'm reading a lot of I'm thinking very high level. So it's thinking really about how tabletop games exist within our society. How do we use them? What are they as a tool? It's getting very like. My thinking now is, and my relationship now to tabletop games is very like theoretical, you know, like I'm thinking what is a game system? But what is a? What is a dice? You know, how do we simulate this thing? Um, yeah, so look, I think about it very high level, like how do people interface with tabletop games? Like why is there a hesitancy for people to think about games as a serious tool? How do I break down barriers for people in the workplace to play more games as a serious tool? How do I convince people who do play games outside of the workplace that it's totally okay to play games in the workplace if you do it the right way? Why is there cultural barriers there? These are all the questions that ping around in my head now and then getting a bit crunchier, reading a lot about game systems.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I try to keep up with what's coming out in terms of innovations in the research space on tabletop games and also from a commercial perspective, what games and modules are coming out, what interesting new mechanics there are. And then from a content perspective and a fun perspective, I guess I like to see what cool blending. I think that the coolest thing for me at the moment in the world of tabletop games is just like the blending of genres and the blending of different types of people playing it. Like you know, tabletop games for so long have been this eurocentric, male dominated, fantasy talkiness kind of world and it's really cool to see them follow the wider literature now in fantasy and sci-fi to expand into like these new kind of genres on the margin you know, that are like the edge of the frontier of the global zeitgeist's imaginary world. Like I think we're expanding our imaginary world as a culture and society, as we, you know, bring more and more different and diverse people into it and seeing what those people on the edges are thinking about is is really interesting for me at the moment. So you know I love I've loved a few game systems that are like developed out of like african mythology and about seeing what's there on the frontier for people who are exploring sexuality through tabletop games and to think about, to see how those people see the world and to then see, as a result of that, what kind of systems they create, what kind of context they create, what kind of culture that they want to bring into the world of tabletop game.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'm super excited about that frontier at the moment because the center of the robust sphere in tabletop gaming is really robust, but it lacks that diversity. And with that diversity comes iteration on rules and concepts and systems, and that's the exciting part for me at the moment. So that's, I've answered your question for too long because I'm getting too excited about it. But so that's where my like, that's where I spend my, if I'm doing free time reading, if I'm doing actual playing, at the moment I like to try and tinker with stuff in that space. So at the moment I'm I like to try and get my friends who are you lot of D&D but don't maybe have a lot of time to sit down and do a new system. I'll take the time to bring a new parts of systems into a D&D game. So that's how I like to Trojan horse others into this frontier, as well as to bring topics and systems and rules into our D&D world and just experiment.

Sara:

That's very clever. I have a small group that I get together with when we talk about all things games and they try and introduce me to different games and Powered by the Apocalypse comes up a lot. But it's interesting. This idea of and actually PBTA is very good for getting you going very fast and having to make hard choices very quickly. So getting into that place where things matter happens. For me anyway, it happened very quickly.

Sara:

But I like also what you said about having that curiosity about what are other people doing, where is the space going about? What are other people doing, where is the space going? And I think that that also seems to be a trait that I'm seeing in people that are really interested in the games or make some of the best game masters. Like they are very curious. Like how did we get here? What does history say, what is new, what is coming and what are you interested in? Like it doesn't matter where the curiosity is pointed, just the fact of being curious. It doesn't matter where the curiosity is pointed, just the fact of being curious, and I think that that curiosity and creativity, I think, must be co-related in some way.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, yeah, I think you're spot on there. I think there's definitely a relationship. So, yeah, those are the things that like grab my attention are the people who are making games or experimenting with building a campaign or a world setting or a system that is kind of on the margins, you know, like not crazy experimental, but just like thinking about a topic or a concept and being like, well, what does that look like in a tabletop game or a system or a setting?

Sara:

Yeah, yeah, going back to this group that I have that we talk games. We were recently meeting and talking about D&D and it's the many lives of D&D. It's evolved a lot since it was first conceived of One of the people that I invited into that conversation. She's done a lot of research on the new D&D or the one D&D that they're working on. I'm not sure how much you've looked into that.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, I think they're essentially just taking some of the well, they're adding a bit, but they're taking nothing from the core. Like things that are good are going to change too much. I think they're just going to change a few things that people have had gripes with over the time being, and I don't expect the core experience to change too much. I think expect the core experience to change too much. I think that's just an improvement, more than anything. Like if you're looking at it from a corporate perspective to put my like you know business strategy hat on, like if you're wizards of the coast, like why the hell would you change something that's working so well? I think the only thing that you would do is like remarket it and repackage it. You know, like, and maybe just yeah, I was them what I would be doing is taking the things that are working don't change the magic bits that are the best parts and just change the bits that aren't working so well and then repackage it like you're bringing out a whole new thing. But really it's just like a point. You know, 1.5e.1.2 is how I think about it in my head. So I think like it's more of a. You know, 1.5e.1.2 is how I think about it in my head. So I think like it's more of a you know, how do we make this not get stale, but also how do we, you know, keep the good thing going and how do we keep our market share where it is. But that's a very like cynical, like take, but also like I think that's kind of where their minds would be, but on the same thing, I think they understand like cynical, like take, but also like I think that's kind of where their minds would be, but on the same thing, I think they understand. I mean, like they should be smart enough to understand the strategy and around being the cornerstone of the industry and having people take your thing as a remixing agent and then going forward. So I think they now understand that.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

You know, bringing their core rule set into the creative commons is super important for third publishers and for people who take the game and stream and do their own thing with it and create from it. They hopefully understand that the long tail of the people that enjoy their product is why they're so successful. Like that's why people find it is because they watch it on twitch and play it themselves. And you know, people who want to make game systems can easily remix it, and I think they're really smart in in bringing their rules into the creative commons, because they've essentially made their core, the core thing about dnd that's so good. They've made into an ingredient instead of, like you know, a piece of intellectual property that we own. They've made it into something you can take for free and add it into your own recipe.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Brilliant from a product that relies on social connections and and social sharing, and you know people being creative and like they're basically, yeah, I think they've done the right thing and I think their strategy is pretty solid and hopefully they can be like the vanilla ice cream if people's like experiencing a tabletop role-playing games and that, they should be okay with that and they should really be focusing on growing the whole pie instead of growing their share of the pie there's so many players out there that can add to it right in terms of, like, little add-ons and rules yeah, I really hope they see themselves not as like a competitor to like, um, kobold press or something that relies on you know, their, their, uh, their work.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

They should see themselves as like a you know a tree that can supply extra, extra fruit to people who are also in the forest and the forest themselves. The whole forest needs to get bigger I think it's symbiotic.

Sara:

I think cobalt press and some of these others they others. They also create the raison d'etre for having some of the core rules and the culture around it, and all that as well. So, yeah, I think Long Game Project is a very exciting project. I think it has a huge application. I know that you've been posting a lot of different scenarios. There's the Discord server available for it as well. Lots of different scenarios to look at there. Such wide appeal, tabletop playing for corporate use or for any kind of problem solving or, like you said, pandemic exercise or whatever, as well as just enriching day-to-day tabletop role-playing gameplay. What else can we say? Is there anything that we haven't touched on today that you would still like to speak to?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

If people want to reach out to me, they definitely can on LinkedIn and Twitter. If you want to follow the Long Game Project, we're longgameprojectorg, or you can find us on all the socials at longgameproject. If you want to do the course, that's the thing that we're really trying to get a lot more people to go do. It's completely free. Took us a long time to produce. Hopefully there's some fun things to go doing it. Throughout the thing you might learn something. It's really for anyone who wants to play a game and try to think about what that game would look like if that would bring it to work. And so you know, building the building, the culture of practices that may name of the game at the moment. So if you're listening to this, you probably are interested in tabletop games and, yeah, we'd love to love to kind of upskill you to try and bring those skills that you have to work skills that you have to work Awesome.

Sara:

Thank you so much, dr Dan. This has been awesome. Thanks for having me. Thank you. This concludes episode nine of the A Role to Play podcast. Be sure to head over to courseslonggameprojectorg and sign up for the free Foundations of Tabletop Exercising course. You'll find lots of resources on the website and you can connect to the Discord community for even more. A Role to Play is an untamed dandelion production. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Make a wish, dream it true. Can I divert you for a moment and take you to another world?

Sara:

most definitely I'm just playing now and I have no idea how this goes, so forgive me as I figure it out, but uh, not really well rehearsed.

Sara:

We've spent the whole time talking about imaginary worlds, so we should end one ourselves there it is is and you find yourself on this path, this road that is seldom traveled, and there is a wagon that's broken down just in front of you. The birds are singing it's a sign that things are relatively peaceful and you see this old woman just talking to herself and she's doing something, and as you approach, it's as if she doesn't know that you're there. She gives no sign and you're about 20 feet away. What do you do?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Is she? Okay? She's talking to herself.

Sara:

I heard that, well laddie, you may as well come up here and show yourself. Then.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And she turns around and she, she looks at you and she says yes, I'm alone, so I guess I look left and right and I approach very cautiously oh, I won't hurt, hurt you.

Sara:

Oh, aren't you the curious type? What brings you here today?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Are you okay? Your wagon's broken down.

Sara:

Is it?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I look at the broken wheel on the ground.

Sara:

And you see that it's actually like the wheel is broken and you see the the way that the grass is growing up around it. It's like this wagon has not moved in a very long time, not in a very long time. So she just kind of looks oh, look at that, it is broken does she smell?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

can I smell what she smells like?

Sara:

Let's be kind here and say she doesn't smell bad. She actually has a little bit of like. There's a hint of smoke from the fire and there is some kind of like an incense. It's a little bit exotic. It's like something not really from around here, uh, and it's uh like there's a bit of a cinnamon smell and, um, yeah, like cinnamon and clove, uh, as well as uh, like you're smelling this in the forest, and there's a bit of like pine scent in the background. It's weird juxtaposition of these scents. Actually, now that you, now that you mention it and you're just at the time of day listening to you describe this well, she does have the pot on is.

Sara:

Oh I, I heard that your stomach is rumbling, sir. Would you do it? It it seems that I'm not going anywhere and perhaps you would like a meal she's giving me uh, she's giving me um sweet bun vibes that she's a baker.

Sara:

So, I take a step closer. Well, don't be scared, I won't hurt you. I won't hurt you. I pat my pocket for coins and you do see, she does have a fire. She's got some kind of a stew on and she's got some food there and it's all laid out and like she's got like the shakers and she's like just adding some spice, and you know the classic with the ladle, and like it smells so good, so, and she says just be a couple of minutes, and so like I'm going to just sort of fast forward the scene and say like, do you, do you accept her invitation for dinner?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

oh yeah, I sit down okay, cool, uh.

Sara:

So so you have a seat and and she, she offers you an amazing meal and she says so, um, so there you seem to, uh, you have that. Look about you like you're, you're going somewhere and you've, you've, you've come from somewhere. I don't know much about you, but I can tell there's something do I know where I've come from? Uh, you have it's hazy, but you've come from this world I say yes, I am hungry, I'm traveling.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I think that's why I'm here.

Sara:

Hmm, I think there's something more. I think you're on a path, sir. I can see destiny in your eyes. Dare you draw, and she pulls out some cards and she's got like the table is clear in front of her and one second and yeah, and the cards they look uh, oops, see if I can get them out here. They look like this whoa they look like this okay I'm very, very interested yeah, I say I'll draw you'll draw, will you?

Sara:

will you draw from the original deck or will you draw from the all, from the many of the many?

Sara:

whoa, what a choice um 13b, the original number I think the original the original more woe than wheel. But you are brave so I look. I look at the soup I think, I think of the soups, how the soup's going and the soup looks amazing and it tastes amazing and and, and just for a moment, like there's something that that shifts in it and it's like but it's not, it doesn't, it's not disturbing, it's actually um is it crouton or a frog?

Sara:

yeah, exactly so your mind thinks frog, right, but it's more like. It's more like the crouton and it's just this, uh, this white glow, it's almost like. It's almost like if gummy bears belonged in soup. It's like that's how it would look, but it's still. The croutons are nice and crunchy but there is this little spark of a glow. It just makes you happy when you see it and you feel like you're eating this and that as you eat this soup, it's nurturing more than just your physical body.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

All right, draw me up.

Sara:

All right. So she pulls out the deck and she shuffles the cards and she says and of this 13,.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Then, so, is this my payment? Like do I?

Sara:

this is your deal.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Like I get to, I get to have soup and you get to, like, play some kind of game with me. You need, you need a player. That's my payment.

Sara:

I can't help my curiosity and you just seem so full of story. Pardon me for wanting to know okay, and then she lays out the cards, just like this, and she asks you how many you will draw, how? Many I'll draw yeah, first how many I?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

how many? I'm going to say three. I'm going to do the one, that is, I'm going to just go far right, far left, and the one that's poking up in the middle.

Sara:

Okay, far left actually is off the screen. Do you want me to bring it back into what's in?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Whatever's the furthest left, and that one that's poking up in the the furthest left, furthest left.

Sara:

Okay, and this one here, all right.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I slip soup Anxiously Like an old man's anxiously sipping soup.

Sara:

There's lots of soup, dear, don't worry.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'm not going to make those sounds with a microphone, because people will get shoes on their back.

Sara:

poking, so true, so true, all right. Well, you be in luck, sir. You have the help of the knight, is on your side and you need his help, for I see ruin, oh God, and the throne. I knew you had an interesting fate.

Sara:

And she studies the cards.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I put down my spoon. I put down my spoon. He's the card. Who is that?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I put down my spoon.

Sara:

No, no, sir, no, no.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Can I take it back?

Sara:

No, I'm afraid the cards are drawn and the story must be told. This is what's coming.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I close my eyes and lean my chair back into a trustful position

Sara:

fear, not, fear, not ruin.

Sara:

Is u soon behind you, the Knight will take you forward and the throne is ultimately yours. It is not ru a funny thing, they say For what you give up Is also the weight of what was, for what can be gained For what is to come. And I see you having great support from the Knight who will meet you yonder. When you go back to whence you came, you will find that there is a Knight working with you who will help lead you to this place and you will be Crowned the King of the game. Yes, yes, yes, dear. This is, this is very good.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Thank you, christian Bach.

Sara:

Well, you know, sir, that any game always has its challenge. It's not that you play and everything comes easy, it's that you know there is that fortune to be told and there is that challenge to be overcome, and there are the companions who will help you on that way, and there is the success that you achieve in the end, and I do see that for you.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I like this story.

Sara:

I like it too.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I was going to say when can I go home as the sun starts setting? Can I go home as the sun starts setting. Are you finished your soup?

Sara:

Yeah, no worries.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I look at the half-finished soup.

Sara:

Yes, oh, there, there, there, there. Take this potion and drink it in the time of your need.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

And a periapt....

Sara:

Thank you, yes, yes, and it will empower you as the soup, you have. All that you need, all that you need you found it right here. You found it right here. All you need, and more. All you need do now is believe. And with that she sends you back.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Whoa, it's like I never left the podcast studio. I had this weird dream.

Sara:

Did you?

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Yeah, there was a frog crouton, it was like this old lady. She said she'd just broken down, but there was like no mechanic anywhere. The grass was like growing up in her car and then she gave me some soup and kind of played a game with me and then told me that I'd be back here and that some night would take me to the promised land.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I don't know. I

Sara:

Well, it sounds good to me. It sounds very promising. I think you're going to do great yeah.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

Awesome, awesome.

Dr. Dan Epstein:

I'm excited.

People on this episode

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Dr Dan Epstein

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