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The Revolutionary Man Podcast
The Revolutionary Man Podcast is for high-performing husbands and fathers ready to lead with purpose. Hosted by Alain Dumonceaux, this show equips men with the tools to reclaim their masculine identity, master work-life balance, and strengthen mental health. Featuring expert interviews and raw solo episodes, each week brings insights to help men lead their families, grow their businesses, and build a lasting legacy. It’s time to stop settling and start rising.
The Revolutionary Man Podcast
The Secret to Fixing Broken Relationships with Dr Dean and Hollykem Sunseri
Let me know your thoughts on the show and what topic you would like me to discuss next.
Through faith, emotional healing, and spiritual alignment, we can break free from past wounds and embrace a future of love and inner peace.
• Understanding the three inner voices: wounded child, protector, and true self
• Pain transforms into purpose when we're awake enough to see the lessons before us
• Unresolved emotional wounds gather in our "bucket" and get triggered in current relationships
• The protector develops to keep us safe but can become destructive in adult relationships
• Learning to speak for all parts of yourself rather than becoming controlled by them
• Two principles that can restore any relationship: repentance and forgiveness
• Leading with grace before speaking truth maximizes the chance of being heard
• Men need the love and blessing of other men to fully love their partners
• Triggers are opportunities to heal parts that deserve love, not threats to avoid
If you're ready to take control and live with purpose and become the man your family, community and future needs you to be, then I challenge you to start today. Go to membersbeawakenedman.net and begin your journey by taking the integrity challenge, because the only thing standing between you and the life you're capable of is the decision to take that first step.
Key moments in this episode:
04:39 The Hero's Journey: Overcoming Personal Battles
11:31 Understanding the Voices Within
23:52 Healing Emotional Wounds: A Path to Self-Love
27:40 Exploring Relationship Challenges
28:24 Healing Broken Marriages
35:52 Effective Communication Techniques
38:11 Managing Emotional Triggers
41:27 Grace and Truth in Relationships
48:26 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
How to reach Dr Dean and Hollykem:
Website: https://www.ihaveavoice.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deanhollykemsunseri/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-sunseri-b918a278/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@IHaveAVoice1212
Book: A Roadmap to the Soul: A Practical Guide to Love, Compassion, and Inner Peace
Thanks for listening to the Revolutionary Man Podcast. If you want more information about our programs, use the links below to check us out. It could be the step that changes your life.
👉To join our movement:
⚙️Resource Hub (Free Stuff)
IG - /the.revolutionary.man
FB - /theawakenedman.net
You know, life can sometimes feel like a relentless race, trying to mend relationships, overcome personal battles and rediscover our purpose. But what if the answers we see aren't external but buried deep within? Today, we're going to unlock the power of emotional and spiritual healing. Prepare to uncover the interplay of faith, love and inner growth, how it can transform pain into peace and disconnection into profound connection. So this episode isn't just about recovery. It's about living fully, finding freedom and experiencing a soulful transformation. Now, before we dive into today's topic, let's take a moment and talk about something that could change your life.
Speaker 1:We all know how hard it is to stay true to ourselves in a world that constantly pulls us in different directions. The pressure to provide, to perform and persevere can leave us feeling disconnected, like we're drifting further from the man we want to be. And if you found yourself frustrated and stuck and unsure of how to bridge the gap between the life you have and the life you want, then let me introduce you to Living With Integrity. This is more than a program. It's a roadmap for transformation, and you're going to realign your actions with your values, rebuild meaningful connections and create a legacy that truly matters. So if you're ready to take control and live with purpose and become the man your family, community and future needs you to be, then I'm going to challenge you to start today. Just go to membersbeawakenedmannet and begin your journey by taking the integrity challenge, because the only thing standing between you and the life you're capable of is decision to take that first step. And with that, let's get on. With today's episode, let's get on with today's episode.
Speaker 2:The average man today is sleepwalking through life, many never reaching their true potential, let alone ever crossing the finish line to living a purposeful life. Yet the hunger still exists, albeit buried amidst his cluttered mind, misguided beliefs and values that no longer serve him. It's time to align yourself for greatness. It's time to become a revolutionary man. Stay strong, my brother.
Speaker 1:Welcome everyone to the Revolutionary man Podcast. I'm the founder of the Wicked man Movement and your host, Alan DeMonso. How often do you find yourself making a mistake, looking towards external solutions for what, deeply, are internal challenges? And how can you recognize this change of trajectory for our lives? And what would it take for you to heal your emotional wounds and reconnect with your soul in a way that renews your relationship purpose? And you know, healing isn't just a destination. It's a deeply personal and transformative journey, and by confronting emotional wounds and rekindling faith, the seeking of soulful connections, we can create, rewrite our narratives. And so today we're going to explore how that profound process of healing and spiritual alignment can empower anyone to break free from the past and embrace the future of love and inner peace. And with that let me introduce my guests, Dr Dean and Holly.
Speaker 1:Kemps and Sari are co authors of a roadmap to the soul. It's a practical guide to love, compassion and inner peace, and they are experts in personal transformation with over 30 years of experience Been married since 1991 and they help individuals and couples overcome trauma, break self-destructive patterns and find purpose. Dr Sonseri is a licensed professional counselor with advanced degrees in practical ministry and mental health counseling, specializing in emotional and spiritual health, and Holly Kamm, a certified life coach, draws from her recovery journey to inspire others toward freedom and resilience. And together these powerful couples share with us their practical wisdom and heartfelt insights that make them compelling guests for an episode I'm sure you're truly going to enjoy. Welcome to the show, Dr Dean and Holly Kemp. How are things, my friends?
Speaker 3:Thank you. So good to be here. That's so good. I love the awakening aspect of Awakening Men, because we've been doing this for years and one of the characteristics we see when people really take to it and grow is there literally is an awakening, there's an understanding at a higher level, and we love talking about growth, we love to see men go to another level, so we're excited to be here.
Speaker 1:I'm so grateful to have you on and, as we were saying, as we're getting onto today's show, it's always great to have couples, especially couples that speak to the type of topics we're going to touch on, just upon marriage, but also this deeply transformative work that both of you have done. And my first opening question for all my guests is to talk a little bit about their hero's quest or their hero's journeys. Tell us about how your paths crossed and how that experience shaped you into the couple you are today and the work that you're doing. I'll start with you, holly Kim.
Speaker 4:Yeah, hi. What's interesting is yesterday I was sober for 42 years.
Speaker 1:Oh, congrats.
Speaker 4:I know the journey of coming back from addiction and alcoholism and dysfunction Grew up in a dysfunctional family. Who doesn't? Because we just don't know how to deal with our emotions. It's not like a lesson we got taught in elementary school. So through that process of working on myself, going from self-hatred to self-love, and on that journey I met Dean and I had already been divorced and out of that marriage for a long time and as I met Dean we became really good friends and started to really dig into where we were at the time. And we both were on this really powerful journey of discovering, like, what did God want for us, who were we, what was our destiny, and start to really dig into that.
Speaker 4:At that time I was a board certified substance abuse counselor and through that became a life coach and an ordained minister and in all of that 36 years of being in the field of really what I do is help people love themselves and that what I brought to the table was not only the educational part but it was actually what really did work on me so I could hopefully have a healthy, loving relationship. So I could have a healthy, loving relationship with myself and with God and with other human beings. So the journey of just digging deep, really facing the traumas without fear today. But there was a time when I did face those traumas I was trembling. When I did face those traumas I was trembling, but today, because I've learned a system, a lifestyle that works, I don't face it with fear anymore, I face it with joy, because I know what's on the other side For us.
Speaker 4:We've been married for 33 years and we work on ourselves still today, after 42 years of sobriety. And one day now I can still work on myself. I just can't go. Oh, I've arrived. I don't know when you arrive, I guess when I cross over.
Speaker 1:But I'm not afraid.
Speaker 4:I'm not afraid of it anymore, which is beautiful.
Speaker 1:Love that. What about you, Dr Dean?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love the term the hero's journey. I think we all are called on a significant journey and I think mine began at 16 years old where I was really made a commitment to follow His voice, the voice of my spirit, and eventually led me to the seminary because in Catholicism that's like the place to go. But there was a certain point where I never lost that calling, but I did lose the attraction to the seminary. You get real close to the Catholic Church and you see the wonderful things and you see the wonderful things and you see the underbelly and there was a lot of things that occurred that I decided to transition out and it was a really difficult transition and there was also a lot of turmoil in my family. At that time my parents' marriage was on the rocks. My dad's drinking had escalated to levels that were a lot higher than before.
Speaker 3:We're a very tolerant culture in New Orleans in terms of alcohol but it just escalated to a place where it was really becoming a problem and in the midst of all, that was one of the lowest areas in times and I was transitioning out of the seminary and it was at that time that I met Holly Kim and I always say, the priest met the junkie. But the thing we had in common we were both really committed to the same journey, even though we were coming from I was coming from the seminary, she was coming from the streets and we were hungry, just really hungry, to do whatever needs to be done emotionally, psychologically, spiritually to walk in the destiny that we believed we were called to do. And eventually I got into counseling and got into doing work with life coaching. But I think that, looking back, part of the hero's journey for myself was that the deepest hurts became my deepest treasures, and so what I mean by that is just dealing with the alcohol issues.
Speaker 3:My dad made a very courageous decision when I was probably about 21, 20, 21 years old to go to treatment. He's been sober ever since and he's 87 years old, and in that midst of that we learned a lot of things about alcoholism. I made a commitment to stop drinking myself because I could see some unhealthy patterns, and that was the most shameful thing in my early adulthood late teenagers, early adulthood but it was transformed. It was going through the gauntlet of an awakening, literally, and now, for 35 plus years, I've helped hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals, families, that same thing. So all of a sudden it's become a treasure. It's become from shame to brought to the light to now. It's the way I've served people for so many years and we've done that together. Really We've been a partnership in that and it's just been really good that's outstanding.
Speaker 1:What I love about both your stories is really it is I made a daughter to note here it's really about pain to purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we find our purpose through our pain if we're willing to be awake enough to see the lessons that are being put before us.
Speaker 1:And you know, what I liked is what the question you asked yourself there, holly kim, you said is what did god want for us? And as men, we tend to not because we get. We are raised for the most part in that we need to be this provider, this protector presiding over everything that we think we need to. This is a one-man show protector presiding over everything that we think we need to do. This is a one man show that all the weights that we are Atlas with the weight of the world on our shoulders and we forget that there's something much greater calling us to do this work and we have to be willing to do that. And so I think that's what I really liked about this getting into your book, a Roadmap to the Soul, because you talk about, or use this analogy of this voices within and you have the sign behind you there the I have a voice, and I like that idea. So let's talk a little bit about who, what and where these voices are and how they're impacting our daily lives.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll go there. And one thing I want to say, alan, is that I really appreciate your commitment to this journey for men, that you're holding their hands through this, because, as a woman, I find my women that I've worked with they don't always get how difficult it is to be that man Like you're the one that asks us to go out, you're the one that takes the lead and you're the one that holds most of the rejection, because we're the ones that go no, no, thank you. And it's like how many no's do you get? I can't even imagine. You know what I'm saying If you're even brave enough to ask. But just in all the no's that you did, do you know, as a woman, I want to say I'm sorry for all the women that didn't get it and I want to say thank you for asking. I just think it's really important. So in that just side note, I'm just excited about this because I love men. I think they're awesome human beings. I love my husband In this.
Speaker 4:What happened was I see in threes, I am dyslexic and 80, and it's my gift. And so in pictures, I see in threes, I am dyslexic and 80, and it's my gift. And so in pictures, in pictures. I see in pictures. So words are not the greatest for me. So when you were giving your monologue and sharing all this, it was beautiful because it was so beautiful words, but it was painting a picture.
Speaker 4:And when someone would come to me or when they would talk to me, when I was on the other side of the sofa, I would see three parts of myself that there was a part of me that was an addict, that was hardcore, was a protector, that would not, that doesn't want me to get hurt and would not take risks Okay, in certain arenas, and sometimes it would take too many risks in other arenas. And then there was a part of me that was very wounded by all the traumas that I had done to myself or it had happened to me. And then there was my true self that wanted to be free, who I really was, which I was terrified that there wasn't a big part there anymore. She got lost in the midst of the trauma and the protection and as I, that's how I started to figure out what they were asking me to do, what I needed to do, cause they kept saying Holly, kim, you got to love yourself and you got to quit. You have to quit beating on yourself. And I'm thinking what are they talking about? But finally I could see that there were these three parts of me in the movie. Sometimes they have the little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other shoulder.
Speaker 4:What I could see was that there was this true self that was that felt guilty about the part of me that did things that were against my own values. But what was in between that was this wound of not being able to take nothing else in the bucket Like that bucket of wounds were so large that my true self couldn't handle it anymore. So my protector came out and helped me. So when I would work with people, when they would speak to me, I would categorize when they would speak, I would say that is their wounded child, that is their protector, there's their true self. And as I would speak back to them and say, look at it like this, and I would say that is their wounded child, that is their protector, there's their true self. And as I would speak back to them and say, look at it like this, and I would show them and that I wanted, what I wanted from them was to have a voice on all three levels. I wanted their wounds to tell me what, the way they saw it, how it felt, what happened. Then I wanted their protector to tell me how they handled it and how that worked for them in the beginning and then how it became their enemy. And then who were they? Who were they really? And through that process?
Speaker 4:When Dean can tell you about his side of that, when we met he had his master's in theology and then what are you going to do with that? So he went to become a counselor, get his master's in counseling. And he's Holly Kemp. What I'm learning and what you do and your people they look like people are going to get better, right, he said, through the lessons. Right, he said, but what you're doing? Your people are coming out of the office and they're getting better and they're getting their lives. So teach me what you do.
Speaker 4:So that's how we came up with the whole concept of allowing someone to see it and be able to have a have a language for the inner life.
Speaker 4:Because it was like if someone said to me Holly, my kidneys hurt. I have never seen a kidney, I'm not medical at all, but in my mind I had a vision of what a kidney looked like and I could have compassion. But for the inner life, for the emotional life, the spiritual, there was no real good words. So you could say something and I could miss it, and if I missed it as your coach or as your therapist, you could really hurt yourself and then you could end up in a divorce, you could end up drinking suicide, I don't know. So it was like I have to. Really, my intention in my heart was I really wanted to be able to hear what you were saying and that I could speak it back and we could learn to love all of that. Yeah, so that's where it really came out of, and then teaching it to Dean. Then we came up with the more concreteness of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dean, what about you? Anything you want to add on to that?
Speaker 3:of it. Yeah, dean, what about you? Anything you want to add on to that? I think that what happened was we were on a honeymoon and one of the things I asked Holly Kim, I said we were conditioning. I said you know what's important to you, what would you like? And she said I want to write a book. And I said it's hard for you since you're dyslexic and you're not good with words, and she said that's why I have you.
Speaker 3:So really, when she began to see the, I saw the brilliance of the simple brilliance of what she was seeing, and so we put a language to that and it's just a language to understand the inner life and it made a lot of sense. It was originally applied a lot to addiction, because it's easy to see somebody struggling with addiction. Yes, a part of me wants to use a part of me, doesn't want to use a part of me, is afraid, or I feel rejected. I want to sedate, but I don't want to sedate because it causes more problems. So we're talking in all three voices, but by by giving them voices, then it helped the person identify those things. And when it goes back to really self-love we all have are called on our journey and that's our true self-calling. But the biggest blocks of those is our wounds and our coping behaviors. So if we just try to empower our true self-vision and we don't deal with the other two, it makes it really difficult to really fully pursue what we're called to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes so much sense and the note I wrote down here is a voice on all three levels and in the men's work that we do, that's some of that.
Speaker 1:We call that the shadow work here, and it's about having giving the men courage to look at that part of themselves that they're not crazy about, right, that we tend to suppress, that tend to. You know, holly Kim, you talked about the number of no's. You know that we get the amount of rejection, yes, and depending on where we are from a mental state, we may be using that as fuel to move us forward and then at other times in our lives it can feel more like a battering ram and then it just pushes us down and so we don't learn how to express, and that's where I wanted to really take us to. The next part really is, look, talking about your develop, your transformational process, because really you're what you're I hear you're saying is you're working with people between the emotional and spiritual growth, and so let's talk a little bit about what that looks like and how you're helping folks do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so really, really, the way I approach spirituality is very simple, and certainly it's in the Judeo-Christian tradition. But really, jesus said the three most important relationships is the vertical it's a relationship with God, then relationship with neighbor and to relationship with self, and his primary charge is that we need to grow in a loving relationship with those three relationships. So, in my own simple mind, anything that helps us grow in any of those three relationships is good, is healthy, is life-giving. Anything that destroys those three relationships is bad or unhealthy or, a theological term, would be evil. And so then, when you look at it that way, it simplifies things.
Speaker 3:Now, religion's the institution that's supposed to help those three relationships grow in a positive way, and sometimes it does a really good job and sometimes it doesn't. And so we begin to separate, okay, our religious experience from our calling, and what we've noticed is that when you grow in one of those relationships in a positive way, it impacts the other two. So if I learned to love my own grief, then I'm going to be able to learn to love the grief in you and I'm going to have a better understanding of God. If I'm stuck in my pain, the opposite is true I won't be able to handle your pain and I'll probably have resentment towards God. So the point being is that any movement in one area ripples and impacts the other two.
Speaker 3:So when we're dealing with people, it's not a proselytizing thing that someone comes in. We just say we want to know where you are right now on those three relationships and we're going to give some attention to helping it grow. We're going to, we're going to water that, and a lot of our work is starts off with the relationship with yourself. Yeah, when I begin to the shadow work, I work as a very much kind of a Carl Jungian type. Things is is given names to the parts. We just have three parts, but giving names to the parts, making some of the unconscious stuff more conscious, owning it, taking responsibility for it, acknowledging some of the ugly thoughts and just saying, okay, I'm not going to give you power, but I understand that you want to slap your wife right now, it's all right.
Speaker 3:It brings me back to early in my marriage just to illustrate it. I remember my Holly cam had two jobs. She was working a lot and really neglecting our time together and I was like, okay, you need to cut back on your work because you're not being available as my wife and this and that. So I'm right. And given her the assertive communication. And so she came home one day on a Friday she said honey, I took all day, the rest of the day off today, all day Saturday and all day Sunday. We can spend the whole weekend together. And at that moment, the wounded part oh my God, you're going to be smothered all weekend. You're not going to be able to do anything. And then my protector was like lie to her, tell her you got a golf game on Saturday. And true self was like I get to spend time with my wife. Yeah, at that moment I'm dealing with these three, three energies, right, one is terrified, one is wanting to lie and another part's excited and I'm the one that asked her to take the time off.
Speaker 4:So you know I need to be able to manage that.
Speaker 3:I need to manage that, and if I don't and I become the fear, then it's not. That result's not good. If I slide to her, the result's not good. But if I'm able to translate that and that's what we want to do is help individuals translate and say look, I'm so glad you're able to spend the whole weekend together and I'm really excited about that. And a part of me was afraid that I'm going to be controlled the whole weekend and scared about that, and another part of me actually wanted to lie to you just to create space. If I need some space, I'll ask for it, and then it creates a moment of intimacy and connection, as opposed to didn't you ask me to take time off and now you want to play golf and it turns into something you don't want to happen. So, yeah, it's just a way to manage the inner life so it can bring connection as opposed to isolation and disconnection that makes so much.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing with you here because I can totally relate to that and I'm sure everyone listening to this episode there'll be lots of us men. This is what I asked for and all those emotions we go through. But really this is the next question for you, Holly Kim. It's really what I'm hearing you talking about is really helping people deal with these unresolved emotional pain, because that's really what's stunting our growth from a spiritual perspective and really being on that journey and in our relationship. So talk a little bit about that piece, about this unresolved emotional pieces that we keep taking with us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, in the old days they used to call it baggage. I brought this suitcase to the marriage and I didn't tell you about. And then something happens and it opens up and all this stuff comes out. And in that what happens is that when we get wounded, let's just say my grandmother dies, right, and. But also that means my mother's mother died, my father's mother in law died and all my siblings and cousins and family lost somebody they love. So let's just say there's a thousand pounds of love that needs to help me heal from my grandmother dying.
Speaker 4:However, everybody needs a thousand pounds of love, okay, so maybe there's only a hundred to go around for each person, just because, just because Not because nobody doesn't want to do it, but we all lost the same thing, do it, but we all lost the same thing. So in that what happens is that 900 pounds that still deserves love gets put in this bucket which we call the wounded child. So then life goes on and there's another loss and that deserves 500 pounds of love and I'm only able to accomplish a hundred pounds of love for it. So I have another 400 that goes in that bucket. That needs love. You do that over a life, right? That all of this stuff gets put in there. It's not that I don't know about it. It's not that I wouldn't take care of it. It's not that the people that love me wouldn't help me. However, there's things in here that just never got the love that deserved. Okay. So instead of me having to beat everybody up because they didn't know how to do it, it's just there's stuff inside of me that needs love and deserves it.
Speaker 4:So what happens is when we so our protector takes over and figures out how to manage that extra pounds of love that was deserved or sedated. We got to sedate it. We got to pretend it's not there, we got to put the mask on, do whatever we got to do to be functioning in society. But this thing is heavy, so this thing is trying to take over, and what happens is that when we get triggered and the trigger, everybody's just stop the trigger or let me get rid of the person that's triggering me. Really, what's happening is, when we get triggered and the trigger, everybody's just stop the trigger or let me get rid of the person that's triggering me. Really, what's happening is, when I get triggered, it is an opportunity for me to go in and love some of this stuff Because, let's say, your grandmother died. You're my good friend, I go to her funeral. Now I am crying a little bit for your grandmother and you, but now my wounds are crying for my grandmother.
Speaker 4:As an adult, I have the opportunity to love this and now I have opportunity to maybe go to one of my siblings or somebody else and we can have that moment of loving each other through this wound. But what we've been taught, or what I was taught, was shh, that was 20 years ago. We're not gonna talk about that. We're not gonna make anybody else sad. Shh, we're not gonna talk about that. Make it go away. Make it go away.
Speaker 4:So, all of a sudden, my protector is as big as my wounds. So if my protector is 100,000 pounds strong, my protector is 100 hundred thousand pounds strong. But every time I get the opportunity to love some of this stuff that deserved it, my protector gets smaller, my wound gets smaller, my protector gets smaller and there's more room for me to continue to come out. And as I learned to do that and then I learned to trigger myself, like on a podcast like this, you're listening, you have that opportunity, or you go to groups or a men's movement or whatever. You're taking the opportunity to trigger yourself to let those things come out so you can love it. So the part of you that keeps you from being in another relationship or being a workaholic or drinking too much you can, that will get smaller too.
Speaker 1:I love that, and what I really appreciate about what you're talking about here is these are all topics that we Well, we touch on here within our men's group mentorship group. We call it the Band of Brothers, and one of the things we talked a lot about last year was on relationships, and relationships not just in our marriages, but the relationships we have with ourselves, with our siblings, with authority, and all of these little aspects of relationship. We have set different types of triggers for us, and how we react to it starts to show up in our key relationships, and so I really wanted to focus now on folks that are struggling with, in a what we would call a broken marriage, things that they brought this childhood baggage with them. They have triggers that are happening, and yet they're. They struggle individually and can't seem to connect. In your work, do you have a process that helps people go from this point of the marriage being broken to getting on a path to reigniting love and passion for themselves?
Speaker 3:yes, yeah, we definitely do part of my practice I do. Probably 60, probably 70 couples and really the when people come to me there there's brokenness on a greater or lesser degree, and so that's what we need to delve into. And if you have, if each person always say can you help us? So what are you? What are the results that you get? Can you guarantee results, kind of thing. I said I can guarantee you that I'll give you everything you need to restore your relationship. The question is, are both of you all committed to that?
Speaker 3:One might be committed, the other might not, another may be partially committed, but there's a roadmap to restoring any relationship and I've seen it in the most egregious hurts that have occurred. Certainly, infidelity is usually one of the deepest hurts that can occur when it's revealed and I say look, we can restore this if you're both willing. And it's not an intellectual process, it's an emotional process. So we're going to have to teach you how to manage your emotions, what to do, and also so we bring them on a journey. But we're going to have to teach you how to manage your emotions, what to do, and all that, so we bring them on a journey. But if we had to sum it up.
Speaker 3:There's two principles that can restore any relationship and there's spiritual principles that have deep psychological application. One of the principles is repentance, and repentance is often thought about me repenting before God, which is a dimension of it, but I'm talking about the horizontal dimension of it. I define repentance as to have a heartfelt sorrow for the things that I have done to hurt you, to take full responsibility for it, to say it, look in your eyes and say it, and to make a commitment to learn to do it differently. So it's taking responsibility. For my part, I always say to couples I say look, if Holly Kim symbolically slaps me three times and I slap her once and then she slaps me three more times, in my own mind it's okay, she's got six in, I got one. She deserves at least two or three, but it's how we think.
Speaker 3:But what repentance looks like is that it was wrong for me to slap you that one time and I'm sorry and I'm going to work on learning to do it differently. That's her job to deal with her slaps. And if I can get the couple to focus on their own actions, reactions and behavior and take responsibility for that both of them then we're going to get lots of movement. So one of the exercises we do is that we have them write down what are those coping behaviors that have hurt your partner and I have them sit down on the sofa and look at each other in the eyes and I say I apologize for, and I coach them and I say fill in the blank. And they go through it. And then, after they go through it, I say what do you see in your partner's eyes? I see sadness, I see hurt, I see anger, I see this and they're validating that. And then I reverse it, I say okay, I want you to look at your partner I apologize for and fill in the blank, and you wouldn't believe the intensity of tension that starts to get released just in that very simple exercise. And the next principle is forgiveness, and forgiveness is very much misunderstood. It's not giving a person a pass for what they've done in the past and saying it was okay. No, it's recognizing that you have done certain behaviors that have hurt me and I carry the hurt in my heart from that and I'm willing to lay down that hurt on the altar and ask it to be removed. And so forgiveness is really a willingness to let go of hurt. It's not saying it was okay. In fact, you probably wouldn't have been hurt if it was okay. It's taken for granted. It was a violation on some level.
Speaker 3:And what I teach people is that forgiveness is not for the other person, it's for you. That if I have a friend, joe punches me in the face and he goes about his business and I think about the next day man, I can't believe Joe punched me in the face. And the next day one time, I think about man, my jaw is hurt and I'm going to get him. And the next day I think about it. The next 30 days I think about it one time a day. After 30 days, how many times has he punched me? 31, right, I've recycled through it over and over again. I'm mad as a hornet.
Speaker 3:But if I was able to get that offense out of my heart on the third day. Then I saved myself I had four punches instead of 31. Third day then I saved myself I had four punches instead of 31. And so it's recognizing that forgiveness is a principle that needs to be practiced. Now, if both couples actually practice that and then bring them through an exercise with that look in each other's eyes, okay, I forgive you for or I'm willing to forgive you for. Sometimes it's just I'm willing, you for or I'm willing to forgive you, for Sometimes it's just I'm willing, I'm willing to forgive you for.
Speaker 3:And then I do the same thing. Look in their eyes, say that, what do you see in their eyes? What's this? And we process. And when we just keep nurturing those things the self-responsibility and the forgiveness, the repentance and forgiveness we begin to restore anything. And that's the roadmap to really restoration. There's always other issues involved. We need to work on communication skills, we got to work on meeting each other's needs, we got to do all sorts of things. But when we start getting movement in that first repentance and forgiveness.
Speaker 3:Because it's interesting when you look at it spiritually, ellen is that Jesus said. He said repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So in my own view, what he was saying is that look, heaven is around us. But if you practice this principle of repentance, it'll usher heaven into this situation. And it's the same with forgiveness. You practice forgiveness, it'll usher forgiveness into the situation, heaven into the situation. But I also say it's your choice, because the opposite is true too. If practice, never take responsibility for your behavior, never forgive, and I promise lots of hell in a relationship. It's going to be there, right, and so we actually impact the atmosphere of our relationship. Never forgive and I promise lots of hell in a relationship. It's going to be there right, and so we actually impact the atmosphere of our relationship by the attitudes that we adopt to choose to interact with our partner.
Speaker 1:That makes so much sense I was just thinking about. I think you know, for me, god's always with me and, depending on how well I want to listen, sometimes it's just a nudge and I get the message, and other times I need a two by four to really understand what's happening. And I think that's what you're saying and so you're also next to you, holly Kim, I really what I hear Dr Dean talking about is really helping couples develop healthy communication styles and help so they can navigate this. So tell us a little bit about how your work evolves around that and helping couples really learn how to communicate properly.
Speaker 4:Yeah with us. We teach them the process of the roadmap and how to use their voices. So, let's say I have an individual, that's the partner didn't come or they're not in a relationship like that, okay, so they're coming just to work on themselves. So the main thing that I'm doing is teaching them how to speak in the voices without saying them Okay. So a part of me is really hurt. This really reminds me of when I was seven and this happened, and a part of me really wants to run away. I don't even want to deal with this. However, what I need to say is this but for them, they know it's their wound, they know that it's reminding them of a certain situation. They've gotten triggered. They realize that their protector wants to run away, and so they speak for their whole self, and then they take it to where they need to say something healthy. Now, if it's a couple what? And they're both all doing the voices right? They'll say like.
Speaker 4:For me, I'll say Ethie, which I call my wounded self, right Cause we name and claim them. My Ethie is very hurt and I feel like she feels like when this happened to her when she was seven with her dad, and then the example is he never showed up. So when you didn't call me and didn't show up, not only did I feel the pain of you, but she also all of the pain from her came out as well when he wouldn't call me. And then what my protector wanted to do was divorce you. She's already divorced you. She's already seen the lawyer and signed the papers because she's I'm not dealing with this again. I've already dealt with this my whole life. I'm not dealing with this again. However, I know that you love me and I know that something must have happened that was gotten the way that you did not show up. So I really need to be open to whatever happened, because I know you love me and I love you.
Speaker 4:So what we do is we teach how to speak for those parts instead of becoming those parts. So the work you do is really understanding. How does that part see the world, hear the world feel. How does this part want to react to the world? Want to run away from the world? Hear the world feel. How does this part want to react to the world, want to run away from the world, and what it wants to do? But I speak for them and I make it like a part of me, but I, we name and claim it okay. And then holly come, I get to say that this is what I want and I know you love me, I love you and I don't. I don't want to run away, even though this part does.
Speaker 3:And the awareness of it depowers.
Speaker 4:Oh, it's so, depowers it, because instead of it just ruminating and ruminating, and then those parts take me over, because for me the wounded child and the protector are best friends. The wounded child becomes the silent partner in the relationship and it just talks straight to the protector and the protectors. I got this, and then I'm being and not being nice and slamming doors and all of that, and I've become her. And so you didn't marry her, you married me. I told you about her, believe me, and you laughed. You thought it was funny, right, when she acted that way.
Speaker 4:But you don't like when she shows up, right? So when I understand that, then all of a sudden, and seeing, I've told you about all these wounds, right, if I'm in a relationship, right. So what happens when I get triggered? Now you've become all those people to her and I get lost in all of that, because now you're one of them and you already know what happened. Why would you become one of them? So now my protector is at war with you, if I say it or I don't. So once I understand that, then all of a sudden I can separate you from her and them and I can communicate because the person that I married the person that I'm in love with. All that happened was you triggered that stuff.
Speaker 3:It's interesting to see that you know you're triggered and you become a different part, because here's a person I'm married to in my case for 33 years that I love, that has access to everything my bank accounts, this and that and in 3.5 seconds she goes from my lover to my enemy. Yeah, how does that happen?
Speaker 1:yeah, and what I was thinking about as holly kim was describing that you know, for men, when that happens, we don't know how to deal with that, right, and so that's the other side of this piece that I wanted to just explore for a couple of minutes is so you're in a, you're in a situation and that part, that protector part of your wife has come out and she's got guns a blazing and ready to go to war.
Speaker 1:What are you recommending for men to do and how they handle that? Is it a I'll? I won't, I won't hallucinate. I'll let you tell me what you guys think, what your work does.
Speaker 3:I think that comes to communication right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And certainly when she becomes her protector, then it elicits my own protective system to kick in and that's where the self-management comes in and learning to manage that well. But in terms of responding to answer your question, the guideline that I use is it needs to be colored by two aspects grace and truth. And what I mean by that is there's a scripture that I had meditated on, one. It says when Jesus he's talking about, the word was full of grace and full of truth. Grace is to have an unconditional acceptance of a person, of where they are at this moment, and it's to treat them with dignity, even if I'm not being treated with dignity. So if you're watching me interact with somebody and they spit in my face and I'm still respectful back, you might say wow, dean, you handled that really gracefully right. I'm continuing to treat you with dignity, even if I'm not being treated with dignity.
Speaker 3:The second part is truth. It means to speak how I see things from my vantage point, as honest as possible, with as much integrity as possible. Now, the order is very important. You lead with grace and then you speak truth. If you flip the order, you're not going to have a good result. If I'm late all the time and Holly Kim says you inconsiderate SOB, you're always running late. You cause all our schedules off. It may be absolutely true, but she's not going to get the response that she wants from me, right.
Speaker 3:So those two aspects and handling a volatile situation is so important. You need to lead with grace and communicate that and then speak the truth. If you just lead with grace and you don't speak the truth, then you become an enabler, begin to enable unhealthy behavior. If Holly Kim's always late and I'm just graceful and I accept that and I don't speak the truth, then I'm enabling that unhealthy behavior.
Speaker 4:And we'll blow up later. And it'll blow up at some point, yeah.
Speaker 3:So those both are very important and when you do that, that maximizes the chances of being heard. So if I'm running late and Holly Kim says, dean, I love you, and things run so smoothly when you're on time I know you're really busy, I know you have a lot on your mind and it's difficult to get here on time All right, so that's graceful. And then she says it really would be helpful if you can start coming home on time, as you told me that you would do. That would make our lives so much better. Can you work on that? Look, she told me that she cares about me, she understands me, she loves me. And then she hits me with the truth Okay, honey, I'm sorry, it's true, I'm going to work on this kind of thing. And does it always work? No, but that's going to maximize the chance.
Speaker 3:And I think, as I evaluated that those two characteristics and looked at the life of Jesus, that's why he could handle so many volatile situations in powerful ways. The woman that was caught in a very active adultery was thrown before him and they said she needs to be stoned. And he said we'll never send you throw the first stone. And they all drop their rocks and walk away. But it's interesting. He turns to her and he says woman, do they not condemn you? And she says no. And then he says neither do I. Grace, there was grace. And then he said go and don't do it. No more Truth. And she became one of his, her most faithful followers, and that's what he did. He could have he I'm talking to jesus right, he could have said listen, you low down, dirty, whatever you got to get your act together. It's like probably wouldn't have been received that way. But yeah, lead with grace, then speak truth yeah, and I was gonna say another thing.
Speaker 4:Alan is like if my spouse is turning into a teenager, which the protector is like a teenager and it doesn't look good on an adult, but turn into a teenager, it's my job to stay an adult yeah yes.
Speaker 4:So it's like your go there, that's goal. It's like you're in your protector. You're there, I see it. Okay, I need to stay my adult self, okay, and just stay here. Let you go there. And then, as when you're finished, even if it's ugly, then I can say honey, I know that you love me and I can see that I have really upset you and I can see that a part of you is furious with me and I can see that I have really upset you and I can see that a part of you is furious with me. See, I'm saying a part which makes sense, because he's going to be like a part of me really is, because a part of me he does love me, right, and I know that a part of you is really hurt and but I do know you love me. So I really want to hear can you explain it to me more softly? Yes, and all of a sudden that person starts to yes, a part of me really is, and a part of me it's a trance really, when you get into your protective part.
Speaker 3:It's a trance. If I had to play the worst arguments between Holly Kim and I in a recorder back to you, I'd be embarrassed. I don't know who that is, and it's like a trance, like state, that we get in. And so I either pull you into your protector trance or, if I'm able to maintain true self which is a lot to be said about that but if I can maintain true self, I will actually pull you out of your protector trance into your true self.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was just in my mind. Yeah, of course I see pictures Johnny Depp and Amber Heard's relationship at the court. I was obsessed. I had to see it all and I was as everything. I had to see all three parts of me and see everything. But what was so sad is that they were two people that were in love. They were very wounded from their lives. They got wounded by each other and their protectors came out fighting and it was war and the destruction that was done was unbelievable. What he was a lot of people didn't know. He had been sober five years at court so he could sit there and not react because his true self had come to the table.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:And when he got on stand not that I'm taking it up for either one of them, because both of their protectors were very destructive to themselves and others, but when he got on stand he was able to speak the truth. I did do that. I did do that. I did do that Like he told on his protector over and over and over, and it was like in that process and he spoke of his wounds, of where he came from and what happened, and it was like he was unfolding. You know what I see in all of us, and his was at a higher destruction level. We all have moments that are ugly like that and that are painful like that. So when he came to the table, when the court came and he was there, his true self showed up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, 100% yeah and he was able to expose the ugliness of it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, absolutely. What a great conversation we've had today. It's just been phenomenal, but of everything that we spoke about and maybe there was something we didn't get a chance to touch on if there was one takeaway you'd want our listeners to have for them today, what would that be?
Speaker 4:and I'll start with you, holly kim yeah, what I would say is that to all you men, you are so powerful, you are so worth the work, that what's inside of you is so much love to give and so much heart to receive, that you are a brave person, you do things that women could never do, and that I encourage you and challenge you to take the journey of finding out who you really are and what God has for you. It's worth it.
Speaker 1:Love it, dr Dean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was told something years and years ago which I took to heart.
Speaker 3:I didn't understand it at first, but it was when I was getting married or early in my marriage to Holly Kim, and there's a guy that said said you can't truly love a woman like she deserves until you're loved by other men.
Speaker 3:And what I gleaned from that is that if we have an emptiness inside of not being blessed and loved by our fathers, our grandfathers, the men in our lives, then we look to get that need filled by our wives, and it's an impossible thing to do and at that that point I made myself vulnerable. Get involved with men's groups, got involved with probably a program similar to you have and just committed to do the uncomfortable work and it has, it's really impacted my ability to be a really good husband and a good father. And my encouragement to men that are listening, that are tickled in a sense like this makes sense. It's to consider connecting with you and connecting with your program and say, look, I'm going to go through the uncomfortable vulnerableness of taking a risk because, as I get blessed and loved by other men, I will become a better husband, I'll become a better father, I'll become a better businessman and I'll become a better businessman and life will get better.
Speaker 1:Love that. What a great way to wrap a conversation today. I want to say thank you, dr Dean and Holly Kim, for spending time with us today, and I really believe you showed us that through faith, we can transfer through anything, and so if men or couples are interested in getting hold of you and participating in your work, what's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the best way is our website is. I have a voicecom and we have. You can access our YouTube channel. We have lots of free videos. We also have our book, a roadmap to the soul, which you can get on Amazon. And if you're really interested in doing a deep dive, we have a four month online coaching program called Transform you and all the information about that is there and we take you through just a transformational process for individuals and couples.
Speaker 1:Love that. I'm going to make sure all that information, as well as wherever else you are on social media, so people can get a hold of you. Once again, thank you so much. What an outstanding conversation. They loved having you on the show.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:What an outstanding conversation. They loved having you on the show. Oh, thank you, god bless. Thank you for listening to the revolutionary man podcast. Are you ready to own your destiny, to become more the man you are destined to be? Join the brotherhood that is the Awakened man at theawakendmannet and start forging a new destiny today.
