The current hiring market in the health care and life sciences industry is booming. Elizabeth Long, Managing Director, Major, Lindsey & Africa, and Lisa Vandecaveye, General Counsel, The Joint Commission, discuss how to hire and retain legal talent in this new environment. They address the reasons candidates leave for other opportunities, how to adjust to new remote/hybrid work models, changes to the interview and onboarding process, and the importance of helping legal talent develop soft skills. Sponsored by Major, Lindsey & Africa.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
The current hiring market in the health care and life sciences industry is booming. Elizabeth Long, Managing Director, Major, Lindsey & Africa, and Lisa Vandecaveye, General Counsel, The Joint Commission, discuss how to hire and retain legal talent in this new environment. They address the reasons candidates leave for other opportunities, how to adjust to new remote/hybrid work models, changes to the interview and onboarding process, and the importance of helping legal talent develop soft skills. Sponsored by Major, Lindsey & Africa.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
Support for A H L A comes from major Lindsay in Africa, the global leader in legal executive search. For nearly 40 years, they have helped health organizations, nonprofits, fortune listed companies, and the government agencies build strong, talented legal teams. For more information, visit MLA global.com.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you everyone for joining us today. Um, I'm Elizabeth Long and I'm going to be, uh, discussing, uh, hiring to how to retain your legal talent in this current job market with Lisa Vander Cavy. So I will, uh, let Lisa introduce herself. Then I'll do the same. And we'll get started.
Speaker 3:Uh, hello. Thank you for joining us today, and thank you to Elizabeth and to Major Lindsay in Africa for sponsoring this podcast today. Um, I have been the general counsel, uh, for the Joint Commission now for six years, following over 30 years of experience working in-house, uh, with healthcare systems. Uh, at the same time, I had the wonderful opportunity in my career to be an active member of the American Health Law Association, including serving on the board, uh, for six years. And currently I chair the Fellows Coordinating Council. So, uh, it just gets in your blood and it's, uh, it's a great way to have a lot of colleagues across the country. So I'm very happy to be here today. And, uh, uh, Elizabeth, thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for joining us, Lisa. And I'm, I'm Elizabeth Long. I am a managing director at Major Lindsay and Africa. I co-lead our in-house practice group in Philadelphia, and I focus on placing attorneys and compliance professionals at all levels in all industries, uh, including general counsels. And I have a great, great deal of experience placing attorneys and compliance professionals at healthcare organizations, life sciences, pharma, medical device, and biotechnology companies. Prior to being a recruiter, I was a litigator and shareholder at the law firm of Buchanan Ingersol in uni for 16 years. So Lisa and I are excited to, to get started on our topic. Um, so like I said, we're going to talk about how you can retain your legal talent in this, uh, very busy and active job market.
Speaker 3:Right? Uh, that's absolutely true. So, Elizabeth, since you're the expert on hiring, and we're talking about hiring and retaining today, uh, why don't you set the stage and help us understand what's happening in the hiring market? It really is quite dynamic now, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes. Um, it is the busiest we have ever seen it. Uh, it is, it's, it's pretty much crazy right now,<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yes. We are finding candidates are having multiple opportunities. Um, we are having to reach out to a larger number of candidates. Uh, it's very hard to, to close deals, quote unquote mm-hmm.<affirmative> because candidates are having multiple offers, uh, which is kind of creating a, uh, a price waging war. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and I, I think, you know, it's particularly busy in the healthcare industry. Um, obviously last year, uh, was, was an anomaly. We, we hope, um, and certainly a tragedy with, with the pandemic, but certain industries, uh, really actually fared quite well. And the healthcare industry, pharma industry, life sciences was one of those industries. So they remained busy last year, but it's even more busy now. And I suspect a lot of that is due to, uh, positions that were put on hold during the, the pandemic that have now opened up. But we are seeing across the board.
Speaker 3:No, that's a really good point, because as I talked to some of my colleagues, the question is why is it so busy right now? Why is all the hiring going on right now?
Speaker 2:Yes. And it's, and it's not just in-house also, the law firms are involved in this, in this competitive market, and we're finding that law firms are offering associates very large retention bonuses and, and it's very difficult for our in-house clients to, to keep up with that and, and compete with it. So you really just need to go out there, hit the pavement, and you just have to find the right candidate at the right time.
Speaker 3:Wow. That's, it's a tough market. And I guess on the other side of the coin, uh, as being general counsel for a large national organization, we have a great team. We have a great team of attorneys that, uh, uh, we've worked very hard to, uh, develop and into great professionals that I'm very proud of. And it's been a really difficult year to manage, um, the, with all the changing legal issues. Um, and, uh, certainly the concern of losing your key talent is also a primary issue for, uh, general counsel. And, uh, as I've been thinking about this, uh, you know, one of the things I was thinking about is that you as a general counsel or a managing attorney, you really just have to slow down Right now. We've been going at such a fast pace, but slow down, look up and pause and think about who are your key talent and how are you gonna retain them. Um, and you sometimes have to do it a little bit differently than what you might have done in the past. Uh, similar to trying to manage covid issues have to do it a little bit differently because the environment has changed. So some of the things that I've have thought about and have actually implemented that might be helpful, uh, to our listeners on this podcast, uh, would be to actually partner with your HR department, uh, talk to your HR department about the fact that the market is changing and see if they'd be willing to do, uh, quarterly salary surveys. I think it's really critical that you have a benchmark so you know that you know whether or not your salaries are current, are they at market, especially when a market that's changing so quickly. And the last thing you wanna do is find out that the market's changed because you've lost a key talent on your staff. Um, some other ideas might be, uh, professional development plans, which are specifically tailored, uh, to each attorney offering remote work. We hear a lot about remote work these days, but it's also being flexible. Uh, the needs of our professionals that work with us are very different today than they were two years ago, 10 years ago, 30 years ago for that matter. And also, it's, it's so critical that the attorneys, uh, have meaningful work. Sometimes when you're in house, you feel like you're doing the same thing day in, day out. And it's really critical as a managing attorney to make sure that each of the attorneys are, are getting the type of work that really jazzes them up every day that makes them want to be a part of the team. And then lastly, another idea, uh, that we've implemented is a leadership development program. Uh, on one side of the coin is the professional development as an attorney. The other side is, do you have those soft skills? Do you have the leadership skills? So we are in the, in the midst of how our whole department is, has a leadership development program. So we have sessions on executive presence and then also sessions on, uh, presentation skills, uh, and practicing those skills. So how do you present to a board that's different than presenting to, uh, a department? So those are some ideas that, uh, I've thought about implemented. And maybe those will be helpful for any one of you when you begin to look at your team and what options might be available to retain them. You know, I've talked a lot, Elizabeth, are you seeing some of those, uh, retention activities across the country?
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely. And I think what you're doing, Lisa, makes complete sense. And it's really addressing the issues that are driving candidates to move on to other opportunities. Um, one thing we hear all the time is they want to be somewhere where there are opportunities for upward mobility. So, you know, the fact that you are talking to your folks about those opportunities, um, and also talking to them about what they want, um, and, and kinda helping them to create individual professional development. Cause sometimes, you know, not everybody wants to necessarily become a general counsel someday mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but, but to help them, uh, feel comfortable where they are and feel like they are, are getting the experience they want and need and are remaining challenged and engaged. And then for those who, who ultimately do wanna be a general counsel, um, as we know a general counsel is, is generalist, right? So, um, and sometimes in in-house legal departments, depending on how you're structured, people kind of get siloed or get, or get stuck in one lane mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and so to the extent that you can help those folks expand out, find them other opportunities, you know, it might not necessarily be a move, quote unquote up in the company mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but maybe move over maybe to another division where they can develop a another skillset. Um, and that's, you know, one of the, the key things we, we hear from candidates when, well, when they're, when they're considering leaving mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, I just wanted to comment on, on the remote situation.
Speaker 3:Um, well, thank you. I, I'd like to hear your, your perspective on a national level. Thank. Sure.
Speaker 2:You know, I think when we all went into the pandemic, we were wondering really, you know, what was going to happen afterwards. And I think for a while we were thinking, geeze, is everything going to go remote? Um, but you know, as with most things, it's, it's, it's not usually all remote or all in person. I think what we're seeing from the majority of our clients is just flexibility. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So allowing employees to kind of work on that hybrid model. Um, you know, kind of rearranging what days people will be in the office, you know, maybe you have your weekly team meeting on a certain day, and that's the day that everybody comes in mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So we're seeing kind of those maybe two to three days in the office, uh, you know, two to three days from home. But, but with that said, we are seeing employers too, who are saying a hundred percent remote is fine, just travel. Um, and we are still seeing folks that, that are saying, you know, we need you in the office five days a week. And it, it depends on, on the company culture and, and the business. Uh, but in terms of retaining your talent and recruiting talent, you will have a much broader candidate pool if you are open to some kind of flexibility. Um, and then on top of that, in light of this competitive market, you know, if, if somebody has an arrangement where they can be flexible, where they can work from home a couple days a week mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, they're not likely going to wanna change mm-hmm.<affirmative> and have to go back into the office. So that's something that, that doesn't cost you anything financially, uh, but if it would work with the culture of your company, that is, that is a great thing to, to be able to offer folks.
Speaker 3:You know. That's a really good, uh, point, Elizabeth, uh, you've touched on culture. Are you seeing any of the candidates, uh, talk about culture and about changes in the culture now that, uh, we are still in the midst of the pandemic and how that's impacted their careers?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. I mean, I, I think with, with most positions, um, there's, there's your substantive skillset and then that interpersonal cultural fit mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and it's one thing to find the substance, but at the end of the day, for both employers and I think candidates, it comes down to the culture and that interpersonal fit mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, so I, I think it, it signals something to a candidate, um, when, when you're requiring them to, to be there five days a week. Um, and that, you know, and that works for a lot of people, and that's the way it has been for a very long time. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative>.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's really just going to kind of depend on that candidate and, and of course, what, what really works for you.
Speaker 3:Right? Right. So when a candidate, uh, I find it very fascinating. So if a candidate accepts a position in a new organization and, uh, they're remote, how do they handle the onboarding? Or that's prob or is that something you're, you, you don't get involved with? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we, we don't usually get involved in that, but we have been hearing what our, what our clients have been doing. And, and it's actually interesting. I remember right when we went down in, into lockdown, I was working on a search and, and the general counsel said, there's no way that I can hide someone for this person without meeting them in person. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But then of course, we saw how long this, this dragged on mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and sure enough,<laugh>, they were able to, to hire someone. Um, but that's something that we also, we talked to candidates about mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I think, I think after being in this for, for over a year, um, candidates and clients have gotten more used to that. So, um, you know, everything's by Zoom, but I think clients do their best to integrate that individual. So mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it's, it's a lot of meetings. It's, it's a lot of, um, you know, kind of informal coffee topics. Um, but it, you know, yes, it is, it is challenging, but we have seen it, you know, folks, folks adapt
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, it, it, the ch the environment is so different and it's changed that, uh, you probably see a lot of creative activity going on, uh, within law departments. And, uh, uh, one of the things that I've heard is that sometimes the searches are faster because people aren't traveling. Are, are you seen in some occasions that zoom utilization of zoom for interviews has, uh, expedited the process?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. I, I think so, particularly from the candidate standpoint in most, most of the candidates have, you know, current jobs. And it's a little easier if you're, if you're working from home to, to take a zoom meeting. Um, as opposed to if you're back in the office, then you kind of have to make sure that you either can hide in a conference room,
Speaker 3:<laugh>, or,
Speaker 2:Or maybe if you can work, work from home that day. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So I think that part of the process is, is quicker. Um, one thing we have been noticing is that, uh, once we pass the torch, if you will, to our clients to start internal interviews with candidates, that process, um, has seemed to be taking a bit longer these days. Okay. I suspect some of that is, it's, it's the summer right now, so Right. We have vacation schedules, but everyone just seems so incredibly busy these days, and
Speaker 3:Particularly
Speaker 2:In your industry. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it changes every day. Right.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Right, right. And that's why I, I was think as I thought about this, it's, you have to slow down. Uh, we're moving at such a clip because of the law changing so rapidly every day. Um, uh, both federal state, you have to slow down and really stop and think about, uh, people on your team and make sure they know they're appreciated. And, uh, and make sure that, uh, connection is made because, uh, we don't have the opportunity to walk outside your office and say, Hey, how you doing today? You have to make that happen. So purposely, uh, uh, pick up the phone or, uh, make a call through Zoom or by Skype and just check in on the person. And, uh, it's just a different style, uh, different culture, uh, forced by the environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was going to ask you, I mean, are there things that you have implemented in your department mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, that, that have helped with that during this time? Or have you had to, to onboard anyone, um, in the past year or so?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a good question, Elizabeth. Knock on wood. Fortunately, haven't had to onboard any attorneys we've been able to retain. We're so far so good. Keeping my fingers crossed. We just have an amazing team. I'm, I'm just so honored to work with so many great attorneys. Um, but, you know, we work hard together and we work hard at having fun, uh, in the midst of the work. Uh, so we've had virtual baby showers, uh, we've had virtual birthdays. Uh, we have, uh, it started out every day we were having touch base calls just so I could share with everyone what was happening. We are now at, uh, three times a week we have a touch base call. Uh, sometimes we just talk about, uh, our vacation. Sometimes we, uh, we talk about what happened at the officer's meeting that morning, or what the new position of the organization is. And then, uh, once every two weeks, uh, we actually have a department meeting with a set agenda, and we do around the table so people can share what projects they're working on, talk about if they need help with a project, uh, reach out to, uh, members of the team and share, uh, what they're doing. Uh, so we've developed, uh, some formal informal channels. And then, uh, biweekly, uh, I meet one-on-one with everyone and, uh, take an hour or sometimes 30 minutes and, uh, just ask the basic questions. Uh, do you need anything? Anything? Do you want anything? Can I help you with anything? Can I do anything better? And, uh, we have gotten into a rhythm, and I find that, uh, uh, many times, uh, I get interesting complex questions, and many times they're, uh, not so complex. But on the flip side, some days I'll have an issue that comes up and rather than send an email, I just, we use Skype. I just make a Skype call and say, Hey, this issue just came up. Will you talk to me about it? Help me understand what your position would be. And, uh, so it, it depends on what the message is. So we've sort of built a combination of a structured com conversation and then also a, a informal conversation. And, uh, so far, uh, we, uh, we work hard and, uh, we try to have a little fun at the same time too, so
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah. It just, I think it just takes more touch points and mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And one thing also that you said earlier about, you know, helping to develop your talent on what I'll, I'll put in air quotes, uh, the soft skills mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, that's really important too. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, because I think, I think folks forget about that. Um, I think we kind of get so focused on the legal technical side of it mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but as you progress, those interpersonal skills are so key. And you know, what I find most of our clients are looking for are attorneys who are not just legal tacticians, they're business advisors, they're proactive and all of that. In order to be an effective advisor, you have to be able to develop those relationships. And so I think those soft skill trainings are, are very important. Um, and also what you had said before, um, focusing on mm-hmm.<affirmative> work communications, uh, because there is a level of gravitas mm-hmm.<affirmative> and Polish that has to be there. Um, so I think, I think that that's wonderful that, that you're offering those because I, I, I don't think we got that in law school,
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Well, I think you're absolutely right, and I think it's so critical in our development. Uh, I'm very grateful to the time that I've had with the Health Law Association because I've been able to do so many presentations and travel, uh, throughout the country. And, uh, those opportunities just aren't there right now. And, um, as, uh, uh, as professionals, we need people as mentors to reach out and help us develop those skills. And it has to be in an environment that's safe, uh, an environment that you feel comfortable communicating, but understanding that who you're talking to may change how you communicate. And certainly you're right. Uh, how you communicate at a board meeting is different than how I'm gonna communicate in a department meeting. Um, and it's based upon the expectations of the person you're talking to, because certainly as a lawyer, you're trying to, to deliver a message and, uh, depending on who the audience is, that message has to be delivered differently. And if we were in the office full-time, we would have an opportunity to, uh, take individuals to meetings with us. And we have to make that happen now. Uh, we really have to make the effort to give the attorneys the opportunity to present to a wide range of groups and make sure they're getting those opportunities to develop their career, um, uh, during this difficult period of time.
Speaker 2:Great. Yeah. And that's, that's a crucial skill set that our clients look for, is the ability to affectively communicate with different personality types mm-hmm.<affirmative> and employees at all levels. And, you know, we, we can't get into our legalese with Right. Everyone, we have to just
Speaker 3:Flip
Speaker 2:And, and, and really make sure that the communication is, is geared towards the audience.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and I think all of us are at different points in our careers. I, you know, it looks like you made a big career change while when you went over to Major Lindsay in Africa and, and, uh, that's great. Uh, and I think we're all looking for opportunities to grow all the time. And, uh, I always look for opportunities to grow and, and I learn as much from our, from the team as, as I'm sure they learn from me. Uh, it's a continuous learner loop and, uh, I always appreciate the feedback so that I can improve on what I'm doing every day also. So, um, it really has to be a team effort.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you'd be a dream general counsel to work with.
Speaker 3:Oh,<laugh>
Speaker 2:<laugh>,
Speaker 3:You are too kind,<laugh>. I do love what I do, and, uh, uh, I, uh, we have a terrific team and, uh, I just, uh, want continue to provide the best services we can to our, our, our client, our customer, the joint commission.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Well, wonderful. Um, Lisa, any, any other points, uh, for, for today?
Speaker 3:Uh, no, I think that's, uh, I think we've covered, uh, quite a bit of, uh, area. I just, uh, wanna take a moment and thank all of our healthcare workers. I think we'll all be forever, uh, indebted with gratitude and, and gratitude to the healthcare lawyers that are supporting those healthcare workers. Uh, I realize, uh, you're working in a lot of hours and I wanna thank you for that. So, Elizabeth, how about you? Do you have any party comments,
Speaker 2:The audience sentiments? I mean, we're so grateful to, to all of the healthcare workers and all of the healthcare organizations and, um, and everyone that supports them. So of course, including the attorneys.
Speaker 3:Well, again, uh, thank you to Major Lindsay in Africa. Uh, I appreciate this opportunity to chat today, and I hope the audience had as much fun as we did today.
Speaker 2:Ditto,<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Elizabeth.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.