Health Law Career Journeys: Kelly S. Street, Egerton McAfee Armistead & Davis PC

Alé Dalton, Partner, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Kelly S. Street, Shareholder, Egerton McAfee Armistead & Davis PC, about his unique journey from farm boy to soldier to lawyer. They discuss Street’s experiences as a first-generation college student growing up on his grandparents’ Tennessee farm, what he learned serving in the U.S. Army, transitioning to law school as a veteran, what specifically drew him to health law and what his practice looks like, and why it is important for attorneys to find a “champion” or be one. They also discuss Street’s role in Backcountry Unit Search & Rescue, an all-volunteer team that supports search and rescue efforts at Great Smoky Mountains National Park. From AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council.

Watch this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSEpS0rnjRI

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

This episode of AHLA Speaking of Health Law is brought to you by AHLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit AmericanHealthlaw.org.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Hey everyone, welcome back to HLA Speaking of Health Law. I'm Allie Dalton. I'm a partner in Bradley's Healthcare Practice Group, based here out of our national office. And in addition to my day job, where I work on healthcare transactions and counsel providers on regulatory issues, I'm honored to serve as HLA's early career professional council chair. This is the ACPC is the programming arm for early career professionals who are members of AHLA. And as part of this role, I get to host episodes like this one. This one is our career journey series, which focuses on sharing the stories of folks who have diverse paths that brought them into health law. And I have to tell you that I'm really excited about today's episode. A few weeks ago, I stumbled upon this beautiful article by Paige Williams in The New Yorker, all about the Great Smoky Mountains. And as someone who went to UT Knoxville for law school, I was immediately hooked by the beautiful picture of an East Tennessee sunset. And I stayed to learn more about the backcountry unit search and rescue known as Busar, which is an all-volunteer team of elite outdoorsmen who answer the call when hikers, climbers, or rafters go missing in the park or get into serious trouble. And we're talking about some treacherous and remote terrain, and they're doing swift water rescues, long distance carryouts and terrible conditions, and even lowering broken bodies down waterfalls in the middle of the night. And buried in this incredible article was the mention of a Knoxville lawyer. So naturally, I assumed that I maybe this person would be a UT law grad, maybe someone that I had a connection with. So I looked him up, and you can only imagine my reaction when I discovered that this Knoxville lawyer was not only a first-generation college student who grew up on a cattle ranch in Tennessee, but also a healthcare lawyer and most importantly an AHLA member. So of course I immediately emailed the HLA team after finishing the article and I said, we have to get this guy on the podcast. And because he's also an incredibly generous person with his time, he's here with us today. I'm thrilled to welcome Kelly Street to the podcast. He's an attorney at Edgerton, McAfee, Armistead, and Davis in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he focuses on healthcare and health law, healthcare business transactions, some commercial litigation, government investigations, and appropriately search and rescue and first responder law. So, Kelly, welcome to speaking of health law. We're so happy that you're here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Hey Allie, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Well, Kelly, to kick off the conversation, I would love to know. Um, just take us back to the beginning. You grew up on a family cattle ranch in Cheatham County, Tennessee, and you were the first person in your immediate family to go to college. What was that like and how did that shape who you are today?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Well, um, I mean, I I guess I guess I'm really lucky. Uh when I was growing up on a farm, I kind of thought everybody did that, uh, especially when I was a little kid. Uh, but as you grow up, of course you you learn that not everybody has that that experience and those advantages. Um, I grew up with my grandparents, um, and we had a working cattle farm. Uh, we raised re registered black Angus cattle my whole life and um managed a lot of land and all the things that go into that. Um so uh very, very lucky in that regard. Uh I tell I tell people that I kind of, you know, if you've ever read the Winnie the Pooh books, you know, you the hundred acre wood is kind of where I I grew up. Uh and that was a great, it was a great way to grow up. Um I'm a seventh generation Tennessean. Um you know, all of my family, uh before my grandparents were just farmers, and you know, we were farmers. Um, and and everybody in my family, I think they're kind of still a little skeptical of what I do for a living. Um but uh but yeah, uh very, very, very, very lucky. And I guess I guess if that taught me anything, it was just hard work and you know how to get up and do the things and um work hard.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

I'm sure that translates well to the life of a lawyer and all the other things you do outside of the office. Um you had shared that you served in the US Army for approximately 10 years. And for those of us who have never served, can you walk us through those roles and I guess maybe tie in with how do we get to Kelly, the healthcare lawyer? Um, and maybe a little bit later we can talk about Kelly, the other part of you who is saving folks in the Smoky Mountains.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Uh yeah, sure. I I um nobody in my family had ever joined the army, um, so far as I know. Um, I mean, maybe but back in the Civil War or something, you know, there were some people, but um yeah, I I I just want to do something different. And uh I went I joined the army, I went to college. I'm just a little oddball when it when it comes to you know people in my family, but um and I actually you said 10 years, that's correct. Uh it's actually kind of I think of it in terms of five years and five years because I was enlisted. So I enlisted while I was still in high school, actually. Yeah. So they used to have, I don't know if they have it anymore, but they used to have this program where you could go to basic training between your junior and senior year of high school.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So that's what I did. And then I came back and did my senior year of high school, drilled with an army reserve unit, and then throughout college, did that and then commissioned as an officer after graduation, and then was on active duty as an officer for five years. So there's kind of like a five years and five years. The other thing that's kind of funny about the army is that in 1995, when I enlisted, it was the least coolest thing you could do. Like it was just, it was just kind of a dumb thing to do. Like I I remember my high school guidance counselor um kind of kind of asked, you know, see, she was like, you know, Kelly got pretty good grades. Like, are you really you sure you want to do this? You know, like Bill Clinton was the president. I'm I'm dating myself. But um, everybody was doing really well, and no one was join joining the army. And um, but that's what I wanted to do. And and then, of course, um, right around the time I commissioned, 9-11, 9-11 happened with that within like that first year. And of course, things got crazy for the next five years or so. I was on stop loss and um, you know, of course, served served on active duty. And then eventually was able, there was like a there was like a very brief window where I was not stop lossed, which is just sort of like where the army says you can't get out. So there was like a little brief window where they lifted that. I got out, went back to law school, and became a lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

What made you want to go to law school after that experience, other than completely changing what you were doing?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Um, you know, you know, um a lot of officers are confronted with that decision right around the time they're getting ready to do company command. So company command is the job that you do as a captain, where you would be like in charge of an entire company. So as a lieutenant, you would be in charge of a platoon, as a captain, it would be a company. And right about that time, you know, I had 10 years in, not all of which would count towards my retirement. So you have kind of an existential moment there, and you have to decide whether you're gonna stay in or get out. The op tempo from 2000 to 2005 was crazy, and I think we were just worn out. And um, I was trying to I was trying to convince this girl to marry me, and I don't think she wanted to be an army wife.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

She was in Austin, Texas, and she did marry me, but and after I was out of the army. Okay, so um, so that was that was part of the calculus too. And it turns out that was the right decision for me to get out of the army, but um thought about going to other things, maybe get an MBA, other, you know, other professional schools, but turned out that the law was was right for me.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

I love that. And I do clerk. So how did you go from you know being in active service in active duty and then moving on from that role, getting this girl to marry you, going to law school at UT, and then deciding that you wanted to focus on health law? Was there a moment where you sort of ran into health law or was it sort of health law ran into you? I think a lot of our listeners, being early in their health law careers, are always curious whether it's because they themselves are making a pivot or their law students who, you know, nowadays they have health law classes in school, but yeah, are a little bit more exposed, you know, kind of coming in. Um, how did you find health law?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Yeah, so the transition from active duty army to law school in 2005 was fraught and complicated. Uh, you know, a lot of people come coming in there are right out of college. And, you know, being a veteran, having been out in the world, it was just, you know, I I wasn't like fully integrated into the class right right up front. I was kind of like one of the old guys, I guess you would say. At 27, I was old.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Yeah, we trend, we trend pretty young at UT Law. A lot of us did go through. I was one of the babies who went through, so I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, and much respect for you. I mean, you know, you know, I'm just saying, like, it was sometimes we would, you know, in class get into like geopolitical discussions and everybody's got an opinion, and everybody's like, well, I really feel like this, and I really feel like that. I'm just kind of sitting in the back of the room, like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk. But um, but anyways, there were quite a few of us. There were there were a handful of us veterans in in that in that class. Um, but and I kind of had this idea that I wanted to do criminal uh prosecution, uh, you know, and be like a cool, cool criminal lawyer and do that, you know. Um, law enforcement, all of that stuff was kind of appealing to me. You know, um, I did not have this hair at the time. So I had still kind of squared away back then. Okay. Um, and I was thinking that that I might want to do that. I I worked for a summer with a prosecutor and uh I really enjoyed the job. My first summer, I clerked for a prosecutor. And I was like after that summer, I just realized that that was that was not gonna be for me. Like I couldn't do, I couldn't give that that job what it needed um going forward. So I looked for some other opportunities and and then my second summer, I I split it between two law firms, and one of those law firms um had me doing a lot of healthcare-related stuff. And it it just agreed with me, Allie. I I liked it. And um, you know, it's a it's a very interesting field, it's very heavily regulated. The folks that do that work, um, you know, my doctor clients and my mid-level clients and the administrators and the people that work in that space, just I think they really want to help people. And um, and there are a lot of problems, legal problems that need solutions there. And uh, and then there's also the job security of it. I just felt like I would always, if I if I learn how to do this, I will always have a job. Uh, you know, there will always be a healthcare industry and there will always be sort of moving targets. Um, and that's that's proven to be true.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Um, you know, since since like oh six, when I first sort of dipped my toe in it until now, um, it, you know, healthcare's completely different, right? Like the whole business is different now. So um I've really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Well, I love that. That's the best pitch. I feel like HL is gonna put you on a billboard um because I do think the job security piece too has makes it really interesting as well. Just sort of the it doesn't matter the administration, it doesn't matter sort of what's going on. Everyone needs healthcare and it's a highly regulated space. So there's always something happening and always space for new folks to come along and learn things that we we did not grow up with as we were developing our practices. Um, so I'd love to know a little bit more about your healthcare practice. Um, I know you mentioned a few of the folks that you represent, doctors and a hospital, some healthcare providers. Um, I know you touched some on transactions, but it sounds like you also do some litigation. What and I have to ask to put in the plug, the search and rescue first responder law. We have to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, love to talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

But what does what does your typical week look like? What kind of work are you doing? It sounds so interesting that you've been able to merge the health law into you know some of your outside things.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Well, if I could, Allie, can I back up and kind of tell you how I got here? So, my my original foundation after my judicial clerkship, so I did a wonderful judicial clerkship with Rod Kennedy, who is the chief judge with the Court of Appeals of the state of New Mexico. And I had a lovely time working for him for a couple of years. He's a great friend and a great mentor, and I still text him all the time. And I don't know if you clerked Allie, but I that relationship is just, you know, if you if you find someone that you click with, it's just a forever sort of thing. And um, that's that was a real blessing to me to have him kind of as a champion. Um so that was uh just you know, kind of like a masterclass in writing. I needed a lot of help with my writing, and I knew that. So I sought that job out. And um Penny White, who you may remember, Professor Penny White, former justice of the Tennessee Supreme Court, she helped me get that job. And so I so for two years I did that. I worked on my writing, I worked on me, I got better at that part of the job, and um, and then I worked for kind of a boutique um litigation practice in Albuquerque for a few years after that. And almost all of what I did there was healthcare related. Oh, pure litigation, right? I traveled the state of New Mexico from Las Cruces to Tierra Amaria, just just defending doctors and hospitals and doing that work sort of on the defense side. Interestingly, um, I I don't know how much you know about New Mexico, but the the the entire bar of the state of New Mexico is probably around the size of the bar of Nashville, right? Like you can kind of know everyone, and it's it's it's awesome and it's super collegial and um it's a wonderful group of people, but it's not cool at all to be like a defense lawyer. Like that's not that's not considered like it's like like a job anybody wants out there. Like everybody wants to be a plaintiff's lawyer and you know, hit a big lick, and and a lot of people do, yeah. Uh, and there's some really, really great lawyers in New Mexico that do that. Um, but I was on the uncool defense side and you know, just uh really, really cut my teeth. And you know, I worked for this guy who um who just sort of handed me a file and said, hit the road, man, like go go to Deming and meet these nurses and get them ready for their deposition. So I was driving all around to Clovis and Deming and Las Cruces and um we didn't have kids.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, you know, so it was great.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

It was one it was great, you know, just burning, burning up the road, and my wife was cool with that. So um, so I I guess what I'm telling you is that that the litigation really gave me a strong foundation in the beans and the bullets of like risk and litigation and all of those issues, you know, confidentiality and um, you know, business formation. I I don't know how many times I was in some weird courthouse in New Mexico explaining to a judge how personal jurisdiction works. You know, like this you this company can't be sued here. Yeah, that's a defendant in this case, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Like I've got a law school education.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, we did that. I did that in in all sorts of different places. Um, and so when we started having children, we moved back to Knoxville.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Um, and I continued my job as a litigator uh and and and found it very rewarding. So I kind of did the same work that I was doing in New Mexico here in Knoxville. Um, and over time, what I found is that my clients are asking me questions about other things that they needed solutions for. And and I I want to help, I just want to help, right? Like that's why I'm a lawyer. Like, I want to solve your problem. So I would I was always very inclined to try, but a lot of those things were out of my wheelhouse, you know. Like we're having a medical staff bylaws hearing, right? We're trying to kick Dr. So-and-so out because Dr. So-and-so did X, Y, or Z, and then there's this hearing, and it, you know, and so I, you know, I found myself doing things like that, and then um, you know, setting up a PLLC, you know, doing really simple business formation type stuff, like low-risk transactional type formation stuff. Um the other thing that I started to learn is that um, you know, and I I will always have a strong love for litigation and the courtroom and appeals, and occasionally I will still litigate and do things like that. I still I I will, if it's a consequential matter, I will still get involved, usually with more competent local counsel or you know, litigation counsel, and I'll sort of be, you know, tagging along and taking notes. But um you know, just like um I it it's this whole idea that the litigation side of the business is a loser, right? Almost always. So so like for my like sometimes sometimes you play plaintiff and it goes well, right? But even when you win, you still have to pay the lawyers and everybody got deposed, and it's uh it's just no one had a good time, right? Exactly. And and you know, when you show up to the first meeting, everybody's like, oh, Kelly's here, you know, like we gotta now we gotta like get ready for this deposition or do a mock deposition or all of those things. And and then what I was also noticing is that on the other side of it, um, in the more kind of outside general counsel hat that I was wearing sometimes, everybody was really happy to see me, right? It's like, oh, we're gonna set up a company now, we're gonna figure out how to follow the law and make money and help people. Um, and and so slowly over time, I kind of slowly backed out of litigation and leaned more into outside general counsel work, transactions work, um, with and regulatory compliance. So um my uh our firm here at Edgerton McAfee, uh, you know, it's a it's a larger firm for Knoxville, for the Knoxville market. Um and and we are a transactional firm. Um, and I am I am that sort of the healthcare shop here. Um so most of what I do is outside general counsel work for um healthcare practices that are large enough to need someone like me fairly regularly, but small enough that they wouldn't have me working in their organization, right? So that's and then and then and then one doc, two doc practices, larger practices, you know, that we might be consulted with on something very specific from an in-house council. Um and then that's probably 70% of my practice. I know I'm talking a lot. It's a really long answer.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

No, please.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

That's about 70% of my practice. And then the other 30% is transaction. Occasionally some litigation regulatory, really specific regulatory question from a client about Stark or kickback or something like that. Um, so that's that's what I do now. Okay. And the catalyst, the catalyst for really making that change for me was COVID.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Um, yeah, and you know how everyone sort of we were sitting at home, yeah, kind of thinking about our existence.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Yeah. Another existential crisis moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

And that was sort of the moment where I was like, okay, if I'm gonna make a change like in my practice, you know, was I was um in my early 40s at the time. Like I need to do it. So I just went ahead and and did it.

unknown 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

And kind of, you know, I started saying to people that I was, you know, a health health attorney, healthcare law attorney, and not a litigator, and you know, started sort of changing the way that I describe myself.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

I love this. Okay, I'm gonna just add a little sort of parentheses here because I think one of the questions we get a lot, um, we get from our folks who are members of the council or who participate in council activities. Um, since their early career, I think you touched on so many things that all thread back to your willingness to pivot, the ability to take sort of the moment that was given to you, the moment that you had, and turning that into something that really excited you about the practice, or recognizing that it would lead you to something, um, especially on the clerkship front where you said, you know, I knew this wasn't my strong point. So I sought out the opportunity to better that. Um, I would love to hear if you have sort of some advice for folks who might be finding themselves either in a spot where maybe the first job is not the dream job, or the first job doesn't feel like this is gonna make me a healthcare lawyer, or folks who maybe are considering like making that pivot. I think sometimes um it can be easy to lean into the comfortable spot and maybe consider like maybe I'm not good at that, but I'm interested in it. Um, I'd be curious to know, it seems like you're very willing to, which doesn't surprise me based on some of the activities you have after hours. Um, but just this thought of being able to turn whatever opportunities on the table into what you want ultimately and not being scared to do that. Um, what would you say to folks who might be, you know, dealing with that in their own practices?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

I would observe first that the practice of law now is a lot for a younger lawyer is a lot different than it was when so I wouldn't call myself a young lawyer anymore, right? When I was a young lawyer, it was different. Um, it was very frowned upon to move jobs switch. I think there's still some institutional frowning that goes on. And certainly I I frown. If you know, if I have someone who's awesome and they want to make a change and that happens, there's always some turnover anywhere you go. Um, there's very, very little turnover here at Edgerton McAfee because we we we've done a really good job holding on to people. But um so I guess it there's less stigma now, right? So if you're sitting in a room somewhere at Big Law and you're just re reviewing contracts in a diligence room, um, and you're like, man, I I'm I need to change, I need to do something else. I think that's I think it's a lot more okay now to do that. Um there also maybe there's probably someone out there at a different, smaller law firm who's like, man, I wish I could get a big law job where I just reviewed contracts in a diligence room all day. Right. So I think that's okay. You know, that's okay too. For it's so it's it's less frowned upon to move, right? Um I've also been very blessed to serve on the steering committee, and I chaired this committee for two years, the leadership law program for the Tennessee Bar Association. So I I was fortunate to be co-chair of that for two years, and I'm still on that committee. And the whole mission of leadership law for the TBA is um is to find and identify future leaders for the Tennessee Bar Association, for the judiciary, for the state legislature, and local communities. So that's a really big mission. Um but I've I've just been so blessed to be involved with that organization because each year I get to meet a whole new group of younger lawyers who are sort of all at the point in their career where they're between five years and 15 years of practice. And a lot of, and having gone through the program myself, I went through that program at a time where I wasn't sure that I wanted to be a lawyer anymore. Um, I was having children, the demands of mid middle life were starting to sort of come out and I be identified. And uh, you know, it's just really hard during that phase of life when you start to have little kids and you're expected to, you know, bill X amount of hours each year. Um, and you're trying to also sort of have a personal life and be a good husband or a good wife or whoever that might be. So the reason why I tell you about leadership law is because one of the things that we've talked a lot about in that in that program is that um young lawyers really need a champion. You need someone who is who is giving you one-on-one attention, who is taking your future into their hands and and trying to curate a a career for you. And um and I guess what I would say is if if you're out there and you're a young lawyer and you don't have that person, you need to find them. And sometimes it's it's hard, right? Like it can be really, really hard. Um but that's like mission number one. Like you need to plug in somewhere to where you feel like you're a part of the the process and of the family and of the the people in the room that are talking about the things. Like, you know, it it's it's important to try to get there. And if you're not there, maybe you need to find a different place, right? A different and find your people, find a different group of people. So um, and if you are one of those people who are who who have the term shareholder after your name or director after your name, and you're not doing that for someone, you you need to consider that and be that person. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

That's really helpful. Thank you. Um, I think that that will resonate with a lot of our folks, and a good reminder for those of us, especially the ones who are sort of in the making the transition from having one title to the other title and knowing that it's now our turn to pay it forward for folks and that we we, you know, we might not be quite at your level, but we have some some social capital and some experience that we can share with others. Um, well, I would love to spend the rest of our time chatting about the thing that brought us together. Um, so let's talk about Busar. It's an all-volunteer team, and you guys support the Great Smoky Mountains, um, which is the busiest national park. I did not realize that until I read the article. And um, the terrain is treacherous. I'm not much of a hiker, but I have done hikes in the Smokies, and I could see how I could go wrong quickly and unexpectedly. So you have this very busy practice, you are a family man. Where does this fit in? And also what does this look like? Um, can you share with folks sort of what it's like to get the call? And I was very curious about how it works with your job and the demands of legal practice if you get a call about someone being missing or needing your help.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Okay, so I guess I'm just the best way to answer it is just to be vulnerable. And I'm gonna kind of invite you into my sort of life at the time this came along. Um, I was in my early 40s and uh three kids, a wife, very happy, great job, um, very fulfilled. Right. I'm I'm trying to, I'm trying to like exercise and do physical fitness. Um, and I've been I've been blessed in that regard. I've been able to, I've been able to balance those things. And one of my law partners came to me one day and he said, Hey, Kelly, uh, you know, my son's involved with this search and rescue team, and they've they've got a nonprofit board, um, and they're looking for board members. And I was like, Oh man, another board, right? Like, you know, so I was already like on the board of directors for the Bijou Theater, and I'm doing I'm already sort of doing the the consequential board work that I always wanted to do, like for a historic theater, and you know, doing some of those things. And uh, but I love I love this person, and I was like, yeah, okay, well, I'll I'll give it, I'll see. Let me let me let me learn some more about it. So I went to the website and I looked at the website, and it was like there were like rapids and you know, uh, you know, like rubber inflatable boats and like guys with ropes and helmets. And I was like, yeah, seems pretty cool, you know. Like uh maybe I should maybe I should learn more about this. Um so I I agreed to have lunch with Matt Jernigan, who's the president of Busar, kind of the executive director, um, and just immediately hit it off with with Matt Jernigan. He's he's a truly, truly wonderful human being. Um and so Matt Jernigan and Andrew Harrington created Busar in like 2018. And um the whole idea was that sometimes okay, so let me also say this the people that respond to backcountry incidents in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park or any national park, they're National Park Service backcountry rangers who are highly trained and and extremely, extremely competent people who do this all the time. Um, but there is not enough of them to respond to all the things that happen. Um, the other thing, the other thing that is sometimes an issue is that when the, you know, if you have an incident and it's way back in the backcountry, a couple of those backcountry rangers might show up and kind of establish the scene, right? Like make contact with a patient or someone who's in trouble, but two people often can't carry them out.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

And if it's not a life, if it's not a life-threatening thing, there's no helicopter coming, right? If it's life threatening, then there's a helicopter, usually. And if not, or if the weather's bad, they have to be carried out. So you need you might need 15 people to do that. Um and when you start getting people to come, sometimes the people that come can't physically do it, right? So Andrew Harrington and Matt Jernigan wanted to start a search and rescue team uh really based around physical fitness, um, was really the the uh the like very low, low amount of of BS, uh a very low amount of BS and a high amount of physical fitness were the were the was the idea. Um that could that would be available to respond to anything in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park with first class training and first class gear. Um and they did that. And so when I had lunch with Matt and I started to learn more, um I think at the end of that lunch, I said, Well, um, yes, I will serve on your board, but will will you also consider me for the team?

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Like, lawyer thing to do for how do I do that?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Right, how do I do that? I want to be that. I don't really just want to be your board lawyer. He's like, Well, he's like, Well, sure, you know, we consider everybody for the team, but you have to come do our PT, you know, you know, like physically train with us, and then you can take this PT test, and then you know, and then if you pass the PT test, then we will train you, consider you, right? Um and the the so yeah, and and so um, so that's what I did. And I went and I tried out and I and I took the PT test like probably like the it was like the second night I was with them and I failed it.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Well, I was real I was really close to passing it, but still, you know, but I failed it, yeah. So there's this burp there's this burpee pull-up thing you have to do.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

So there you have to do more of a CrossFit life before my my middle year season started.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, you put it you put the search and rescue pack on, and then you have to do 50 of these burpee pull-ups in 10 minutes. And I I didn't I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Um, and it and I and Johnny D, who is who is on the team, he's a doctor, and um he's he's also the medical director for the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. He was there and he was like counting. I remember he was counting, and and and the everybody was like, good, good job, you could try again. Um, so I did. The next time they gave the test was like the next year. I I kept going to PT with them, and then the next year I passed it. Wow, and I kind of trained up for it, and um, and then yeah. Um, that's how I got onto the team. Uh, and I didn't even realize, Allie, that I was looking for that. And obviously, my wife was very skeptical of the time commitment and all of those things. Uh, and she was right to be, because it is a very time-consuming thing. But what I have found is that I've been able to, you know, like like uh my oldest son went through the survival 101 training with me.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Um, you know, we put him in a in a stream and got him hypothermic. And at 12, and at 12 years old, he got out of the water and made a fire and warmed himself up. That's my oldest son.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

And my nine-year-old goes to all of the quarterly trainings with me and camps out. And it's been a real blessing for for me and for our family. And I didn't realize the extent to which I needed to scratch the like the service itch, uh, you know, being a part of a of a group, uh, you know, where there's a you know, there's a physical entry requirement. Like you, it's, you know, you have to be able to do these things in order to be, in order to make it. And there's and I've been at many of those PT tests where people didn't make it and they just never came back.

unknown 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

So so that's it's I like that. I don't know why, I don't know why I sought that out, but but it's a way to help people. Um, and and and the other thing that I really enjoy about Busar is that there's such a diverse um group of people from all these different walks of life. You know, we have engineers, we have medical doctors, we got some paramedics, one guy was a cowboy. Um, we have a uh a lost person behavior specialist, uh tracker. Andrew Harrington is is like a survivalist hunter. He's like a professional hunter. Um Matt Jernigan is a computer software person who also uh has started uh as a seasonal employee of the park. He actually does backwoods backcountry work uh in the park. So, and then you know, a lot of us have military or law enforcement backgrounds. Um but but several people on on the team kind of have more of a medical or you know, or even kind of like a I mean uh like climber type kind of you know, dirtbag sort of like crag rats, you know, and and there's that that whole vibe too. Um, and and all of these, all of us, uh I'm the only lawyer, you know. You know, of course everybody likes to not surprise me, Kill. Everybody likes to give me a hard time about that. But I I just love how everyone there has just such a love and affection for the outdoors, and uh and everybody, everybody wants to help people. Yeah, and and so the other part of your question was what does that look like in my job? Um, well, I can tell you this. My park service radio works when I'm sitting at my desk. So I can, I don't know if you can see, but you can't see it out this window. But from the other side of the building, you can see Mount Laconte.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Really? Yeah. Okay, I know where you are based on the reflections from Klingman's Dome.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Okay, so there's like a radio repeater site on Klingman's Dome, and there's a direct line of sight to the 14th floor of the Riverview Tower. So I could sit at my desk with my park radio and I can hear everything that goes on. Um and sometimes I do, sometimes I do that. Um, but we also use a a signal app that allows us to sort of quickly put out information. And if the park service needs additional assets, the call always comes from the park service. Okay. So they have an issue, they have an incident, they send a call out, and and and it says, you know, it gives a very basic description of the issue and where to be. And then you call dispatch and tell them you're on your way, and they'll ask you how far out you are, and then you show up, and there's usually an incident commander that's been designated, and that's the the person who is in kind of in charge of that scene. And they direct what happens next from there, you know, and then there's lots of different mission profiles that it might be. As to how often that happens, it's really, really unpredictable. Um, and uh, and it's hard sometimes to get on a call if you, you know, if you're right in the middle of a workday. If it's Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock, if I have a client meeting scheduled for one, I just don't go to the to the call out, right? Like my colleagues on the team will go. Um the park service people, I think they like us. Um I think I think so. I think that we could because we work at their pleasure, right? Like we are there to help the Park Service. Um but but you know, when in reviewing like the numbers from last year, like almost every call out where additional assets were requested, Busar had people there, right? Like we should we do we we send people and we show up when it when it happens. Um you know, a couple of weeks ago when we had all the snow, there was a there was a potential call that came out, and we had four or five guys that were ready to go, and it was actively snowing.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

And it was like a ping pong ball up there, you know, with a white out. Um, and we were getting ready to it's luckily the people that they were looking for turned up, but there was an event, and then just to give you an example, my wife was in the other room and she's like, Kelly, are you I can't you're not going out right now.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

I'm like, I'm I'm for and for the listeners who are not from the area. Uh in Tennessee, generally, we do not get a lot of snow, and so that it is not built for you to go even a couple of inches can completely shut down Knoxville and Nashville and our other cities. So it's not um, it's quite it can be very treacherous very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Correct. Yeah, that is that is correct. Now, I will uh it it should be noted that the Great Smoking Mountains National Park has um you know an incredible amount of elevation relief. So So from the foothills to the top of Cleanman's Dome, you know, you've got, you know, a good five, six thousand feet right there. Um, so up, up, up on top of the ridge, there's usually snow and and high wind. And um, so we're we we trained a lot for that. Um, but but it it does paralyze the city when it when it comes to.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Yeah, they're getting their pieces complicated. Well, as we wrap up, Kelly, one of um, you know, our listeners uh of these career journey episodes, we have lots of folks, but they're largely early career health law professionals. Folks are still kind of figuring out who they want to be as lawyers and how to build a sustainable career. And one of the most common questions we get is how to maintain a life outside of the office. And related to that, like really how to hold on to those things that set your heart on fire, like before you become this sort of like, I don't know, this cartoonish, jaded lawyer, which you're not, which is one of the things that I loved about interacting with you. Um, clearly figured out something that works. And I don't know that all of us are gonna be able to pass the boostar PT burpee test. Um, but what advice would you give to those of us who want to keep those passions while still building a meaningful practice? How do how do we not, you know, kind of get into that sort of jaded uh health art professional or lawyer um cartoon that we all know and keep those things that make us really excited about our practice in our life outside of the office?

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Um so we I think we I think we kind of hit on the professional aspect of that. Uh I I think it's just having people is the most important part of having a fulfilling, well really anything, right? Like it's ultimately it's all about the people. But um as far as as far as having a fulfilling practice, I think you need to either be a champion or find one. And um, and that that those relationships are what will sustain you. Um because there are times in our careers where yeah, it's it's really hard, right? Like you have to, you got a surge, maybe for many days at a time. Like if you're closing a big deal and you're working on it every day, you work through the weekends, you work late at night, all of those things. Hopefully you have people around you, you know, a good husband, a good, a good partner, a good, you know, good wife who who can step in and help you with the kids while you surge, you know, and and um that's vitally important to have the people around you that can do it. Um, so professionally, I think that's very, very important. As as far as success as a lawyer, I don't, I think it's I really think it's less to do with brain power and more to do with chair power, right? It's about sitting down and doing it and being focused and just getting it done. Um, I've reached a point in my career where I find that that's increasingly hard because everyone, somebody's always walking in or calling or or asking, you know, for a piece of my time. And what I really need is to sit down and focus. A lot of us now are able to do that by working from home or, you know, in my case, I have certain parts of the day where I'll close my door, right? And then there's other parts of the day where I make myself more available. Ultimately, it all the all of the this the ultimate question, Allie. I think this is me. Every everyone has to kind of find their own way on this, but it's it's about time. And I and and time is the ultimate commodity. And uh we all have to figure out how much time we're gonna devote to all the things. Yeah, and there's you have you have a finite amount of time, right? Today, tomorrow, until you're checking out of here. Um, and and so I try at at every just you know, throughout the day to ask myself, like I'm checking in, like, am I properly prioritizing what what what I what I need to do? Right? If if the phone rings and someone says, Solomon is sick at school and my wife is teaching school, right, at another school, I and that that's what I have to do now, right? Like that takes priority over over probably over this podcast, right? Right. So I would be like, hey, I gotta go, right? Um, hopefully that isn't happening right now because I don't have my phone in this room. Um but you know, and and then and then and then when it comes to your clients, you have to ask yourself, what what kind of time do I owe them? Right? Do I owe them my focus? Do I do I owe this client a duty to turn all these other clients off for a while and just focus on their thing? Or do I do I need to be available generally to sort of respond and put out fires for all of these clients? I think probably the answer is like a balance throughout the day, like setting aside time. So I would encourage people to just like think about is that something that would work for me, right? Like, like there are certain parts of the day where you could just unplug from all the rest of this and just draft a contract. And maybe that has to happen early in the morning before everybody shows up at the office, right? And if so, then that's what you have to do. Um I also think it's really important to um to to you you gotta pull your weight in your family, right? So as a dad, as a husband, as a wife, as a as a partner, am I doing the things at home that will ensure that this person won't divorce me? Right? Like, like am I am I doing it? And and that could be washing the dishes or whatever, right? Like helping somebody do their homework. Um but but it's also really important, and I think kids notice this as a parent. I think this is important. Your kids notice what you spend your time on. And uh if it's you know, may maybe you set aside some time for TV and video games. Awesome, right? But I don't think anybody ever remembered their best day of TV, you know, and and but but and that's fine if you build some of that in, it's fine. Um but your kids, I think they want to see you being passionate about something.

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

And I go back to that moment when I, you know, started thinking about the search and rescue team and the time commitment there, and there was a lot of um there's a lot of concern over what that time commitment might be like for me, for my wife, all those things. But it's turned out to be manageable. And I think I think I think if you ask my kids, they would tell you that they're proud of it.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure I'm sure that they wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

I don't want to speak, I don't want to speak for them. No, certainly. But but I but you know, whether it's like it doesn't have to be burpee pull-ups, right? It could be like it could be like mom, like I my mom really likes playing the guitar, yeah, and she's really, really good at it. And sometimes she doesn't spend time with me when she's playing the guitar. But as a kid, I think the I think a kid can respect you.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

And I think often they will, even if they don't, if they even don't think about it in those terms, you owe it to your kids to be passionate about something that's just yours, whether it's like lifting weights or playing the guitar or whatever, um, probably shouldn't be watching TV and playing video games. Like that should be like an extra thing. Maybe you do we we do that on our own time, but um anyways.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Um, Kelly, thank you so much. This was so fun and it was wonderful to learn more about Busar and the work that you guys are doing. Thank you as a Tennessean for keeping um folks safe um who are visiting or who are from here, and also thank you for inspiring folks to um have those things that set their heart on fire while still being able to build a practice and you know become the health law professionals that they've they're dreaming of becoming. Um, this has been so fun, and I know folks will be inspired by your story. Um, thank you to our listeners for tuning in to AHLA Speaking of Health Law. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe. And until next time, we hope that you find something that sets your heart on fire and that you make time for it. Thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

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